Valuetainment - Episode 407： Teddy Atlas Opens Up About Tyson, Sammy Gravano & His Upbringing

00:00:00.000 30 seconds.

00:00:01.880 Did you ever think you would make it?

00:00:04.540 I feel I'm so close I could take sweet victory.

00:00:07.640 I know this life meant for me.

00:00:10.760 Yeah, why would you bet on Goliath when we got Bet David?

00:00:14.600 Valuetainment, giving value is contagious.

00:00:16.440 This world of entrepreneurs, we get no value to haters.

00:00:19.180 How they run, homie, look what I become.

00:00:21.400 I'm the one.

00:00:22.580 I'm Patrick Bedevi, host of Valuetainment.

00:00:24.080 Today we're going to talk to somebody who trained Mike Tyson

00:00:27.240 back in the days when Mike was 15, 16 years old.

00:00:31.480 Teddy Atlas, who also trained with Customata when he used to box.

00:00:35.200 And you will see his connection to a little bit of the Mott family,

00:00:38.520 which is going to be a special twist.

00:00:40.200 So having said that, my guest today, Teddy Atlas.

00:00:43.200 We're thankful for Teddy making the time to come out here in Dallas, Texas.

00:00:46.500 Appreciate meeting you.

00:00:47.500 Yes, it's good to meet you.

00:00:48.560 Quite a picture behind you.

00:00:49.140 You like the picture behind us.

00:00:50.240 Yeah, it's quite a diverse crowd.

00:00:52.240 Can you name them all?

00:00:53.880 Yeah, Einstein, the guy, pretty smart.

00:00:56.120 And Kennedy, and Lincoln, and Tupac, and you, and of course, Dr. Martin Luther King.

00:01:04.820 And now I'm starting to have problems.

00:01:07.200 So the guy next to Martin Luther King, a lot of people think that's Warren Buffett,

00:01:10.400 but that's Milton Friedman.

00:01:11.720 All right.

00:01:12.360 The economist.

00:01:13.400 And then the guy standing next to me is the race car driver, Ayrton Senna.

00:01:17.860 Okay.

00:01:18.260 And then the man sitting down is a Shaviran, Reza Pahlavi.

00:01:22.220 All right.

00:01:22.900 So.

00:01:23.800 With all those medals on him.

00:01:25.080 Yes, with all those medals on him.

00:01:26.900 Yeah.

00:01:28.020 Wow.

00:01:28.580 I mean, it speaks to you a little bit, I guess, why you got someone like me in here.

00:01:36.840 You go all over the place.

00:01:38.540 Why have a person like you in here?

00:01:39.980 I mean, you're a guy that when it comes into the world of boxing, man, people see you as

00:01:44.880 a scientist, the way you see the boxing.

00:01:46.480 Your lens, the way you view it, is a completely different lens than a lot of people out there.

00:01:50.240 Oh, I appreciate that.

00:01:51.800 Yeah.

00:01:52.120 So the question I got, the more I go through your story, and obviously a part of why you're

00:01:57.540 here is the Sammy DeBull, which we'll get to later on in a minute because of what Sammy

00:02:01.500 said about your relationship with him.

00:02:02.800 And you got a whole chapter on Sammy.

00:02:04.460 We'll talk about that here in a minute.

00:02:05.520 But how did you go from being a kid, raised in a family, your dad's a doctor, your mom's

00:02:13.300 a Miss America pageant, Staten Island, wealthy neighborhood, and then next thing you know,

00:02:19.720 you're getting arrested, Rocker Island, you become a boxer, then you get into a fight with

00:02:24.860 an executive, then you have an issue with Mike Tyson with a gun, then you're going after

00:02:29.180 one of your boxers to the apartment at night because of what happened with him, Gallagher,

00:02:33.140 you know, where does the chip come from?

00:02:36.320 I can't figure out the chip with you, Teddy.

00:02:38.560 You don't have to be from the projects or poverty, you know, to be missing something

00:02:44.500 or searching for something.

00:02:47.100 And then again, you can be from the projects or poverty, and you're not missing anything.

00:02:52.420 And you don't have to search for anything.

00:02:54.580 You know, it all depends on what we've been affected by, what we care about.

00:03:00.700 You know, what do you care about?

00:03:01.760 Obviously, you care about things that are attached to different things with your background.

00:03:07.440 And we had a little brief talk before, you care about your father.

00:03:11.900 Well, a lot of sons care about their fathers.

00:03:15.260 And you never know to what extent, to what extremity, what extreme that it is until you

00:03:21.760 know, until you're driven somewhere, you know, and you don't know what's driving you.

00:03:26.080 You just know what you feel.

00:03:28.840 I mean, listen, it's easier for me now to act like I'm smart when I'm a little older and

00:03:34.420 I understand where I went and maybe a little bit about how I got there.

00:03:40.340 At that point, when I was going, I was just going.

00:03:44.340 I didn't know why, but I was being drawn by something.

00:03:47.760 I had a father you just touched on.

00:03:50.300 You know, we lived in a good neighborhood, gave us everything we needed.

00:03:53.840 I didn't, I was a big sports guy when I was a kid like a lot of us, but Mickey Mano and

00:04:01.120 Willie Mays and Muhammad Ali, they were all my heroes.

00:04:04.480 I liked them a lot.

00:04:06.280 I looked up to those guys, but they were all my heroes.

00:04:09.320 I didn't even know what a hero was.

00:04:11.380 But as I got older, I guess if I had a hero, it was my father.

00:04:15.440 But he didn't talk like Ali and make predictions or hit home runs like, you know, like the Mick

00:04:21.580 did or catch balls the way that Willie did over his head.

00:04:25.900 But, you know, he got up in the morning and he went and took care of people and he didn't

00:04:30.400 come back until late at night when I was sleeping.

00:04:33.000 And he put a white pill under his tongue one time when I was a kid and I didn't even know

00:04:37.620 that that was nitroglycerin because his heart was starting to pop a little bit.

00:04:42.220 But it was more important that he did his job and he still saw his patience than it was

00:04:46.200 if he collapsed.

00:04:49.280 So, you know, like he didn't talk, but he produced.

00:04:56.640 He did.

00:04:57.840 And I saw.

00:04:59.120 And when you're a kid, you see things, you know.

00:05:01.720 And I saw what he was doing.

00:05:03.500 I saw what he was.

00:05:04.520 I opened up the door one time without knocking.

00:05:08.640 I shouldn't have.

00:05:09.940 But it's part of what you do, you know.

00:05:13.160 You take different steps and you just go.

00:05:16.120 And I opened up the door.

00:05:17.160 There was a mirror there and he was over here so I could see him without opening the door

00:05:20.260 all the way.

00:05:21.180 And he didn't have a chance to react.

00:05:23.000 And he was bent over in pain wearing a harness.

00:05:25.460 I didn't know what it was.

00:05:26.300 It was a truss, you know, that was keeping his intestines in place because he had a double

00:05:30.700 hernia.

00:05:31.060 Back in the day when you couldn't do it with lasers and all that stuff.

00:05:34.860 And, you know, he got mad at me for coming in without knocking.

00:05:38.360 As soon as he saw that somebody was there, he was good.

00:05:41.380 He wasn't in pain no more.

00:05:43.480 So I was only about nine years old, I guess.

00:05:46.820 But I realized at that point he was always in pain, but he didn't show it because it would

00:05:52.500 get in the way of what he had to do.

00:05:54.420 Don't show pain, no excuses, do what you're supposed to do.

00:05:59.300 And he went and he took care of people all day and didn't come home until midnight.

00:06:02.860 And he did house calls until he was 80 and he did them for free and he went into the projects

00:06:06.340 because people couldn't afford a doctor.

00:06:08.620 And he built two hospitals.

00:06:10.200 One of them had 22 beds in it.

00:06:12.060 And he built it so before Obamacare and all this other stuff they talk about, you know,

00:06:16.200 they can't figure it out.

00:06:17.380 He figured it out himself in a small way.

00:06:20.200 You know, he built a hospital and he took care of the people.

00:06:22.740 And the people who couldn't afford it, he covered it.

00:06:25.600 You know, he absorbed it on the arm, like we like to say back in old days.

00:06:29.500 But the people that could afford it, they had insurance, paid the bills.

00:06:33.840 And that hospital lasted for 24 years until it got torn down by the city because they had

00:06:39.540 to build a bridge called the Verrazano Bridge on Sandown.

00:06:42.860 But I didn't get him enough.

00:06:44.720 I was selfish, all right?

00:06:47.800 So he wasn't around enough?

00:06:49.480 Yeah, yeah, he was around in the way he was.

00:06:51.940 But, you know, he took care of the bills, took care of everything.

00:06:54.760 And, you know, I saw what I saw.

00:06:57.120 But as a kid, you know, I wanted to play ball with him.

00:07:00.400 I know it sounds stupid, but, you know, because there's kids that suffer a lot more than me.

00:07:07.100 But who's to equate what suffering is to a kid?

00:07:10.440 Who's to measure that?

00:07:11.400 How do you measure that?

00:07:12.400 I'd like to know.

00:07:13.500 How do you measure that?

00:07:14.360 That there might be a kid in the project suffering a lot more than me, a lot more.

00:07:18.800 There's rats running around, and he's got no food.

00:07:22.100 I'm with you.

00:07:23.240 I'm with you.

00:07:24.340 But suffering is suffering.

00:07:26.860 And not having is not having.

00:07:29.300 You know, what do we really need?

00:07:31.060 For me, I guess I needed my father to just say, you're doing good.

00:07:38.320 Say, hey, I won't be that stupid, but I love you.

00:07:45.220 Did you ever hear that?

00:07:45.860 No, he couldn't do it because, you know, he had to be, he was a real tough guy.

00:07:51.420 These BS tough guys, you mentioned one earlier.

00:07:54.080 It's okay.

00:07:54.960 But he was a real tough guy.

00:07:56.920 You know, because he did what he had to do no matter how he felt.

00:08:00.200 And no matter what, could get in the way.

00:08:03.200 Nitroglycerin didn't get in the way.

00:08:04.380 Nothing got in the way.

00:08:05.340 He did what he was supposed to, and in a selfless way.

00:08:07.380 And when I couldn't get that attention from him, I started to figure it out.

00:08:12.480 As the genius that I was as a young kid, and I'm making fun of myself because I wasn't too bright,

00:08:20.800 I figured, hey, who gets all his attention?

00:08:24.240 All the people that are hurt.

00:08:25.920 All the people that are fractured.

00:08:27.680 All the people that are screwed up.

00:08:29.080 All the people that are damaged.

00:08:33.200 So, you know what?

00:08:34.180 I'll go and damage myself.

00:08:35.620 I'll go from this nice neighborhood that you just said.

00:08:38.580 I'll go down to a neighborhood that's not as maybe nice in some ways, and I'll start getting damaged.

00:08:45.220 But I also found family in that neighborhood.

00:08:47.780 I found in some of those rough places people that were drawn together.

00:08:52.960 And I didn't feel that I had that without my father.

00:08:56.940 And so I went and got damaged.

00:08:59.540 And like I said, my father was not a BS artist.

00:09:03.140 My father was a doctor.

00:09:05.440 He was a special guy.

00:09:07.660 I mean, when I got this on my face because I was an idiot and I'm out there, you know, in the streets.

00:09:14.600 And I'm fighting.

00:09:15.900 And not everyone fights with their hands.

00:09:18.700 And I'm fighting a few guys.

00:09:20.520 And one of them still wanted to pull a knife.

00:09:23.560 And, you know, I got 400 stitches.

00:09:26.400 And listen, I wish I didn't have to.

00:09:28.020 400 stitches.

00:09:28.640 Yeah, 200 inside, 200 outside.

00:09:31.280 And, you know, I don't want this, you know.

00:09:35.100 But sometimes it's the part of the, if you pick a path that has a lot of sticker bushes in it, you could get hit with sticker bushes.

00:09:46.020 And I got hit with knives.

00:09:47.860 And when it happened, they were taking me to the hospital.

00:09:52.820 And I remember the only reason I got taken there so quickly was the kid that was with me from the neighborhood that I was hanging out in.

00:10:00.960 He was a streetwise kid.

00:10:02.380 He jumped over the counter of a bodega and he said a cop was shot.

00:10:06.940 And so we got attention really fast, you know, and they got there real quick.

00:10:12.380 And I was, the cops thought I was going to die because I heard them.

00:10:17.320 You know, I heard them say, I think we might lose them because, you know, you're bleeding a lot.

00:10:22.440 And when we were driving and I was semi-coherent, I remember I was really coherent.

00:10:28.700 It's amazing how clear, you've been through rough things from me.

00:10:32.940 You're in the Army.

00:10:33.840 And thank you for that service.

00:10:35.440 And you face worse things than me.

00:10:37.480 But I was so clear.

00:10:39.560 It was like, hey, I ain't worried about nothing.

00:10:43.140 And the only thing I was thinking about was, what is my father doing at this time?

00:10:48.780 Is he in between house calls?

00:10:50.500 Come on.

00:10:51.200 Yeah.

00:10:51.860 That's what you were thinking?

00:10:52.680 Yeah.

00:10:52.940 Is he in between?

00:10:54.200 Let me, I'm trying to figure, you know, because you're all screwed up.

00:10:56.940 You got to cut your clean.

00:10:58.400 You know, you're all a little messed up.

00:11:00.020 But I'm thinking, is he doing a house call or is he still in the office now?

00:11:06.460 Or is he maybe in the hospital?

00:11:08.260 Like, how long will it take him to get here?

00:11:10.060 Did you want him to see it?

00:11:11.240 Did you want him to kind of see the pain?

00:11:12.480 All I said to them, I was telling the cops, and they said, just, you know, just relax.

00:11:19.120 Don't talk.

00:11:20.000 And I kept, I just kept saying, yeah, you got to get Dr. Atlas.

00:11:23.920 Here, take care of this.

00:11:25.160 And when we got there, they put me on a stretch, and they're shooting stuff into me.

00:11:28.520 And they're taking me in.

00:11:29.440 And I guess it's just a moment before I'm out, you know?

00:11:32.660 And as I'm going in, the surgeon is over me.

00:11:37.740 And I guess he was, because not everyone's wearing a mask unless, right?

00:11:41.300 And he's talking to me, and I'm just saying to him, listen, I'm not saying you're not, I still had some manners.

00:11:47.600 I was like, I'm not saying you're not a good doctor, but get Dr. Atlas.

00:11:54.160 He'll take care of this.

00:11:55.580 And they were like, they were good doctors in a way that not just with the stitches.

00:12:00.420 They were good doctors because they understood.

00:12:02.660 They had a young kid here.

00:12:03.620 Did they know he was your father you were asking for?

00:12:05.160 They said, they said, we know Dr. Atlas.

00:12:07.900 He's a great doctor, but we don't have time.

00:12:10.480 They said that to me.

00:12:11.540 We don't have time.

00:12:12.820 And they were honest.

00:12:14.760 And we don't have time.

00:12:16.020 I said, no, no, no.

00:12:17.820 Get him.

00:12:18.880 How old are you at this time?

00:12:20.180 I was, let's see, I went up to Custom Autos when I was 19.

00:12:24.980 And then I went up there, and then I came back.

00:12:28.260 And when I came back, after a year up there, this happened.

00:12:31.500 So I was like 20, 21.

00:12:33.740 And then when it was over with, this is the point I was trying to get to with my father,

00:12:37.520 the kind of man he was.

00:12:38.640 And I don't want people, hey, listen, you think what you think.

00:12:41.420 People are going to, when I tell you this, they're going to say, oh, he's a cold man.

00:12:44.700 No, he wasn't.

00:12:45.460 He was a real man.

00:12:48.360 He was a realistic man.

00:12:50.100 He knew what he was dealing with.

00:12:52.020 He, he, I was laying there, and I guess I came out of it after a while.

00:12:58.060 You know, I was obviously sedated, and it was dark, and I'm in, you know, I got a thing

00:13:03.520 around me, and I'm sitting there, and I'm just thinking, when is, when is he going to

00:13:07.640 get here?

00:13:08.680 And all of a sudden, the curtain opened up, and I couldn't really see him, but I knew

00:13:13.120 it was him.

00:13:13.940 He had big hands, strong hands.

00:13:18.140 And I just remember him over me.

00:13:23.740 I remember he just turned my head a little bit, because he was on this side.

00:13:27.440 He just turned it, and see, he would know how to turn it without having to worry about

00:13:32.760 hurting you, you know, and he just turned it, and all he said was, they did a good job.

00:13:41.100 You're going to have a scar for life, and he left.

00:13:43.280 You know, and I guess that was part of my travel back to being a human being that I could be

00:13:56.180 like I am now, because it didn't get me what I wanted it to get me, you know.

00:14:01.780 So, then it was just a matter after that of finding your way, you know.

00:14:09.280 And thankfully, you know, with the help of some people, and the help of boxing, and maybe

00:14:16.300 myself a little bit, I got to the right place.

00:14:20.660 You know, I got to the right place.

00:14:21.780 It's impressive for you to go from that to where you are today, man.

00:14:24.560 I mean, that's very, very impressive to have turned it around that way.

00:14:28.120 Did you and him ever have a sit-down relationship, like, last memories of your pops?

00:14:34.280 What was the last conversation you had with your pops?

00:14:37.500 He was 88 years old.

00:14:42.160 He did house calls, too.

00:14:43.160 He was 80, free house calls.

00:14:44.420 And, um, he had to get hip surgery.

00:14:50.920 He was in a lot of pain.

00:14:52.580 I never saw anyone who could tolerate pain like him.

00:14:56.060 And it got to the point where it was real bad.

00:14:58.380 So, he went in for hip replacement, and his heart wasn't great.

00:15:01.880 So, the doctors, he built two hospitals.

00:15:04.640 He built Sunnyside Hospital, the one I told you about.

00:15:08.160 Then the bridge was built, so they had to buy it from him and tear it down, put the highway there.

00:15:12.980 And then he went and built a doctor's hospital with 60 doctors, but he was the founder.

00:15:19.420 And that hospital lasted 35 years.

00:15:23.580 And that's the hospital he got hip surgery in.

00:15:27.720 And when he went for it, some of the doctors said,

00:15:31.500 You shouldn't, because your heart, you know, you're 88.

00:15:36.060 And he said, Listen, I, you know, I want to get it, because obviously he understood the pain.

00:15:41.560 And so, he went in, and he went in on Friday the 13th, and we begged him.

00:15:45.840 I know this sounds so superstitious.

00:15:47.300 My mother's Irish, besides being beautiful.

00:15:49.460 She's Irish, so you've got to excuse the superstition.

00:15:51.920 And so, and so she, we said, Go on another day.

00:16:00.780 Friday the 13th is as good as any day.

00:16:03.700 So, he went in.

00:16:05.060 He went in, and he had a massive heart attack.

00:16:09.900 And all the doctors, the main doctors, were gone for the weekend.

00:16:14.220 See, it was Friday the 13th.

00:16:15.540 And they were all gone, because it's the weekend.

00:16:18.480 Yeah.

00:16:18.940 So, there was an intern there.

00:16:20.980 And I know this sounds like, but hey, look.

00:16:24.940 Sometimes the truth sounds like something that you add it to, but it is what it is.

00:16:29.860 You know, that old saying, you can't make this stuff up.

00:16:32.960 Right.

00:16:33.180 So, he, the intern came in, and he very quietly said, I'm going to have a massive heart attack.

00:16:41.800 He said, give me 100 cc's of heparin.

00:16:44.880 Now, I don't know how many cc's.

00:16:46.600 I'm just saying.

00:16:47.400 But I think it was heparin, actually.

00:16:49.340 It's a blood thinner.

00:16:50.460 And he understood.

00:16:51.960 He was a great doctor.

00:16:53.460 And the intern said, I can't.

00:16:56.700 You just had hip surgery.

00:16:57.860 You would hemorrhage.

00:16:58.560 And he said to him, you don't worry about saving the brakes when you're going to lose the engine.

00:17:06.020 Always thinking calm, cool, even though, and he knew.

00:17:09.800 And the guy said, I can't, I can't.

00:17:12.600 An hour later, boom, heart attack.

00:17:16.220 And never fully recovered from it.

00:17:20.080 And had a million tubes set up to him.

00:17:23.080 Had the track, the trach, you know, all the tubes and everything.

00:17:26.860 And I was there every day.

00:17:31.380 You know, supposed to be.

00:17:34.040 And that was the only time I could talk to him.

00:17:40.220 Because he couldn't talk back.

00:17:42.980 You know, and then, you know, during that time, I just, there was a story written about him.

00:17:48.780 Jerry Eisenberg, the great writer, he wrote a story in the New York Stoll ledger.

00:17:53.340 And it was a story that I talked to Jerry.

00:17:58.120 And the story was, it's funny we're talking about this, I didn't realize we were going to, what real tough guys are.

00:18:06.360 About your dad?

00:18:07.220 Yeah.

00:18:07.520 But that was the headline of the story.

00:18:08.740 Wow.

00:18:09.180 What a real tough guy is.

00:18:10.800 And here's this guy in the hospital and Jerry talked.

00:18:12.900 And then me, you know, talking about the people I've been around.

00:18:17.860 Maybe the guy, different guys, like the kind of guys you just mentioned earlier.

00:18:22.800 And, but they're not tough guys.

00:18:25.240 He is a tough guy.

00:18:26.800 And, you know, and just talked about him and his life and what he did.

00:18:33.260 And, and then I read the story to him, but he was already gone.

00:18:40.320 I don't know if he could hear it, but at the end of it, you know, I just, you know, at the end of it, I said, like in the story, I read the story to him.

00:18:50.960 And in the end of it, I said, I love you.

00:18:52.400 And, you know, I'm not going to lie to you.

00:18:56.260 It'd be more, it'd be more better.

00:18:58.660 I know that's not the proper word, but who cares.

00:19:01.720 It would be better if I knew he heard it.

00:19:04.800 It would be gutsy on my part.

00:19:07.420 How much guts do I have that I had to wait until he was semi-comatose to tell him that?

00:19:13.580 Not too much guts.

00:19:15.220 Not too much guts.

00:19:16.180 But, you know, I, I told it to him and I know again, you know, he wasn't completely gone and I thought I saw some smile.

00:19:31.920 I don't know.

00:19:32.960 You know, we don't know, right?

00:19:34.780 You don't know.

00:19:36.300 Maybe you just want to see.

00:19:37.820 So maybe that's, but I thought I did.

00:19:39.860 I thought I did.

00:19:41.120 And, you know, you hold on to those things, I guess.

00:19:45.700 But, you know, they get you where you need to get to sometimes.

00:19:50.720 But, uh.

00:19:51.740 Is he your standard of tough guy?

00:19:53.420 Like, is he a man's man to you?

00:19:55.460 Like, throughout your life, you've been around a lot of strong men.

00:19:57.600 I don't identify people that way.

00:19:59.280 Like, I don't use the word stand-up guy because I've seen too many of them sit down.

00:20:03.880 So, I don't want to hear.

00:20:05.820 I say because you've never seen it with your dad.

00:20:07.620 Your dad's always stayed consistent, tough, never shown it to you.

00:20:10.040 I don't want to hear stand-up because I don't know what it is.

00:20:12.480 I don't, it's just a word.

00:20:14.300 Show me.

00:20:14.840 Show me.

00:20:15.700 Show me.

00:20:16.900 Show me.

00:20:17.820 I remember one time I was acting like a jerk.

00:20:21.760 And, um, and I'm in the streets fighting.

00:20:25.160 And, uh, I get, you know, I get cracked in the back with a tie iron.

00:20:30.900 Hey, that, you pick the streets.

00:20:33.560 There ain't too many rules.

00:20:35.540 It's kind of like, uh, it's kind of like, uh, MMA.

00:20:39.800 Except they don't hit you with a pipe.

00:20:41.880 They, and they face you.

00:20:43.580 Some people don't face you.

00:20:45.380 So, in the middle of all this fighting, I get hit with a tire.

00:20:48.660 And, um, and, um, what do I do?

00:20:50.920 I go to his office to get stitched up thinking I'm like, uh, like I'm some kind of hero.

00:20:58.680 Like I can, like I'm a, I can walk in, get stitched up and go out again and act like a fool.

00:21:03.960 You know?

00:21:05.080 And so I walk in some, one of my friends who just would do anything I said at that point.

00:21:12.120 So they're walking me in.

00:21:13.220 I'm bleeding all over the place.

00:21:14.940 And the place is packed because my father had the biggest practice there was in New York.

00:21:20.460 Because, uh.

00:21:21.520 So everybody knew your father at that time.

00:21:23.100 Yeah.

00:21:23.240 He was a well-known doctor.

00:21:24.680 You had to wait five, six hours to see him.

00:21:26.880 And people didn't mind.

00:21:27.860 Seven hours.

00:21:29.000 Because they were going to see this doctor.

00:21:30.340 And listen, some of his part, he, he's the only one who would take everyone.

00:21:35.240 That's, if you're going to talk truth, you talk truth.

00:21:37.820 He, he took everyone.

00:21:39.460 He took anyone who needed help.

00:21:41.100 Got it.

00:21:41.480 And a lot of doctors, you know, they wouldn't take everyone.

00:21:44.380 They, they wouldn't take the drug addicts that needed a little help or, you know, or the people that had no insurance.

00:21:50.140 Because there was plenty of people that had no insurance.

00:21:52.580 So, anyway, he, uh, I get past the line thinking I'm a big shot.

00:21:57.140 I walk past the line.

00:21:58.180 He sees me.

00:21:58.960 And the hall, he comes in.

00:22:00.200 The nurse, of course, sees me.

00:22:01.780 And she's like, oh, come on, Teddy.

00:22:04.460 You know, thinking she's doing the right thing.

00:22:06.800 And she's rushing me in past all these poor people that have been waiting.

00:22:10.640 And he looks down the hall.

00:22:12.400 He sees me.

00:22:13.320 He says, let him wait like everyone else down there.

00:22:16.840 Let him wait.

00:22:17.400 So, after waiting, it was a short date.

00:22:21.120 It was probably about four hours.

00:22:22.900 So, after waiting, he brings me in.

00:22:26.320 I'm a mess, you know, thinking I did something heroic.

00:22:29.600 You know, we get, you know, we get stupid.

00:22:34.020 And I get in there and she gets the thing back in those days.

00:22:39.100 I see it, big syringe of Novocaine.

00:22:41.680 And she's handing it to him.

00:22:42.920 He goes, what's that for?

00:22:44.500 Very, very simple man.

00:22:46.300 Very simple, but not like, oh, just, what's that for?

00:22:50.560 She said, it's Novocaine.

00:22:52.960 Oh, he doesn't want that.

00:22:54.980 If he's going to live this way, he should know how it feels.

00:22:58.320 He doesn't want that.

00:23:00.060 And I was like, no, I don't want that.

00:23:03.040 Of course I don't.

00:23:03.860 Wow.

00:23:04.320 Of course I don't want that.

00:23:05.480 Wow.

00:23:06.200 And, you know, so, listen.

00:23:09.840 Again, some people out there are going to say that this guy was cold.

00:23:15.000 This is the same guy who got surgery, that double hernia I talked about.

00:23:20.740 After 30 years of carrying it around, he finally got surgery back in the days when they couldn't

00:23:27.240 do it the way they do it now.

00:23:29.340 And he was supposed to be in the hospital over a week, probably eight, nine days.

00:23:34.540 He was in there for one day, checks out, and goes back to work.

00:23:38.940 How do you do that?

00:23:39.760 That's a tough guy.

00:23:40.880 How do you do that?

00:23:42.240 Got it.

00:23:42.760 And now he paid a price for it because a smart man doesn't mean that he does smart things

00:23:47.860 for himself all the time.

00:23:48.960 Years later, he had to get another surgery, but he was able to get back to work.

00:23:54.520 Why?

00:23:55.500 Because he knew he could.

00:23:57.500 Yeah, he knew it would hurt.

00:23:59.180 He knew it wasn't practical, but he knew he could.

00:24:03.040 We can tolerate things.

00:24:04.740 We can do things.

00:24:06.240 But he was doing it for other people, not for himself.

00:24:09.520 And that's a tough guy.

00:24:12.720 Did mom and I stay married?

00:24:14.420 Were they married?

00:24:15.100 Yeah.

00:24:15.440 They stayed married?

00:24:16.060 So mom was totally fine.

00:24:17.720 Mom could be around it all the time.

00:24:19.740 St. Mary.

00:24:20.860 Got it.

00:24:21.680 No, I mean, in some ways.

00:24:23.120 But look, Ken, if you're not ready to talk, you shouldn't put yourself in front of one

00:24:29.320 of these things, I guess.

00:24:30.200 My mother was drinking a bit, you know, and I'm sure that some of these things added to,

00:24:42.700 you know, added to relief, a little relief.

00:24:47.460 An escape.

00:24:48.420 An escape from what it was.

00:24:49.620 Good woman, good woman, good woman.

00:24:50.820 But the opposite of my father.

00:24:54.260 My mother was beautiful, gorgeous.

00:24:57.080 I mean, she was Miss Stan Allen.

00:24:58.440 Her mother wouldn't let her go to Miss America.

00:25:00.200 She was supposed to go to Miss America.

00:25:02.440 You know, the Rockettes wanted her to try out for their work.

00:25:05.620 I mean, she was gorgeous, but she was social.

00:25:09.980 She was, she had a, as gorgeous as she was, that's how electric her personality was.

00:25:15.100 She loved people, loved them.

00:25:16.480 My father was working on it.

00:25:17.620 My father was just like, you know, he didn't take vacations.

00:25:21.260 He didn't go to these parties and social events and all that.

00:25:24.760 He was in the office.

00:25:25.800 He was on a house call.

00:25:27.540 He was in the nursing homes.

00:25:30.220 Nursing homes have to have, back in those days, they had to have doctors that were on,

00:25:34.920 that were signed in as a medical director.

00:25:37.700 They didn't have money, but they had to have a doctor as a medical director.

00:25:40.680 They couldn't pay him.

00:25:41.840 So my father was a medical director of like nine nursing homes because someone had to do it.

00:25:47.200 So they couldn't, so he didn't take no money.

00:25:49.120 But since he did it, he figured that he had to show up or he should show up to see that the people aren't being abused.

00:25:55.960 You talk about, back in those days, it would be a lot easier to abuse people.

00:26:00.560 Who was checking?

00:26:02.420 Who was checking?

00:26:03.040 Nowadays, you got everything.

00:26:04.380 You got, somebody might have a cell phone and catch your abuse and so on.

00:26:08.080 You don't need NBC.

00:26:10.100 So he's going to all these nursing homes doing all this stuff.

00:26:14.180 And my mother is, you know, it's tough, you know, and he's, not enough that he's going to the hospital,

00:26:19.660 not enough that he's got his office house, not enough that he's doing house calls.

00:26:23.120 But, but now he's going to nursing homes to make sure, you know, that, that, that.

00:26:27.760 That's tough.

00:26:28.600 Was he an immigrant?

00:26:29.420 Was he, I know he's, is he Polish or is your mom?

00:26:31.660 Hungary.

00:26:32.060 Hungary.

00:26:32.340 Hungary.

00:26:32.420 Got it.

00:26:32.860 Hungarian and my mother family came from Ireland.

00:26:35.620 And so, so.

00:26:36.820 But not them.

00:26:37.540 They, they were here.

00:26:38.400 But you went to Poland.

00:26:39.300 You, you can't, you, why did you go to Poland?

00:26:40.980 I went to Poland.

00:26:42.480 I went to Katowice and Krakow.

00:26:44.700 I spent a month over there to do a movie with Willem Dafoe.

00:26:47.540 Oh, okay.

00:26:48.060 I got it.

00:26:48.580 Got it.

00:26:48.860 So, your, your, your mom and dad, was your dad an immigrant or was he born here?

00:26:53.900 He was born here.

00:26:54.480 His parents.

00:26:55.240 He was born here.

00:26:55.800 His parents were immigrants.

00:26:56.800 I got it.

00:26:57.340 When was his birthday?

00:26:58.080 Just out of curiosity.

00:26:59.040 When's his, when's his birthday?

00:26:59.860 January 19th.

00:27:01.500 January 19th.

00:27:02.400 And when are you?

00:27:03.140 Two days after Muhammad Ali.

00:27:05.140 January 19th.

00:27:05.840 Two days.

00:27:06.140 And you're June 28th?

00:27:07.120 When is, June?

00:27:07.660 No, July 29th.

00:27:08.860 July 29th.

00:27:09.960 So, he's two days after Ali.

00:27:11.820 January 19th.

00:27:13.000 Interesting.

00:27:14.120 Did you, did you feel like it was.

00:27:15.400 Because always told me Capricorns were special people.

00:27:17.600 He said that, was he one or no?

00:27:19.280 Yes, he was.

00:27:19.920 He was one.

00:27:20.660 Okay.

00:27:23.440 That's just a coincidence.

00:27:24.520 Was he one as well that he paid attention to stuff or not really?

00:27:27.340 Yes, he did.

00:27:27.880 Because I'm boxing a superstitious type of, he did.

00:27:29.660 But he didn't believe in like Venus being matched up with Saturn.

00:27:32.800 No, no, no.

00:27:32.940 Just the math part.

00:27:34.200 The math part.

00:27:34.820 Okay, I got it.

00:27:35.540 He believed that certain characteristics were inherent in certain signs.

00:27:40.180 Wow.

00:27:40.820 I like him already.

00:27:42.120 That's so interesting.

00:27:43.140 Yeah.

00:27:43.360 And he told me, you know, he had to sell me.

00:27:45.400 He wasn't paying me.

00:27:46.580 I was in the gym.

00:27:47.280 You got to remember, I was up there seven years with him.

00:27:49.260 I was up in the gym training fighters seven days a week.

00:27:52.700 He didn't believe in taking Sundays off.

00:27:55.100 And, you know, every day.

00:27:56.940 Every day.

00:27:58.020 Pro's doing the day.

00:28:00.280 Amateurs at night.

00:28:01.100 I grab a cheeseburger.

00:28:02.140 Go right to the amateurs.

00:28:03.400 Be there until 10 o'clock at night.

00:28:05.240 And, you know, until the last kid was done.

00:28:07.500 Talk to the kids with their problems.

00:28:09.400 Besides teach them how to throw a jab.

00:28:11.520 You know, whatever.

00:28:12.700 And Cuss would tell me.

00:28:14.120 Cuss would say, you're Leo.

00:28:15.780 You're a born leader.

00:28:17.180 He said, yeah, I'm a born leader.

00:28:18.800 Yeah.

00:28:19.400 He goes, yeah.

00:28:20.140 He goes, look at history.

00:28:21.620 And he would read it.

00:28:22.980 It wasn't just making it up.

00:28:24.400 He would say, look, look at all the leaders.

00:28:26.280 Look at all the leaders.

00:28:26.780 They were Leo.

00:28:27.260 This one was a Leo.

00:28:28.240 Wow.

00:28:28.360 And I was, like, thinking in my head, you know, I hope guys like Hitler won him.

00:28:34.680 Yeah, I was.

00:28:35.480 I was thinking, you know.

00:28:37.080 I mean, you're going to have some crazies no matter what you are.

00:28:39.700 Yeah.

00:28:40.000 Because some of that has got experience.

00:28:41.460 The one that sounded good, the booster ego, was like Alexander the Great.

00:28:44.340 I don't know how bad he was, but Alexander, that'd be all right.

00:28:47.220 Two million square miles.

00:28:48.360 He conquered.

00:28:48.900 That's a pretty.

00:28:50.100 All right.

00:28:51.100 I'm in good.

00:28:51.900 So Cuss was a guy that paid attention to that.

00:28:54.080 Did he ever kind of hint at who he felt would make great boxers?

00:28:57.540 Yes, yes.

00:28:58.600 What month did he think it was?

00:28:59.480 Certain styles.

00:29:00.320 Certain months.

00:29:01.200 What month was his month?

00:29:02.200 Aquarius was one.

00:29:03.620 February.

00:29:04.320 Yeah.

00:29:05.200 Another one was Capricorn.

00:29:08.140 Muhammad Ali, baby.

00:29:09.500 You know.

00:29:10.680 And Taurus the Bull was May.

00:29:13.520 Taurus.

00:29:13.980 Yeah.

00:29:14.500 He said some of them made pretty good fighters.

00:29:17.940 He told me Pisces would make good teachers.

00:29:20.280 So if I had a Pisces, I'd be, like, thinking, oh, I'm spending all this time with the guy,

00:29:24.240 and he's going to be a teacher.

00:29:26.440 You know.

00:29:26.960 Would you think about that?

00:29:28.060 Like, was it in your mind?

00:29:29.000 You kind of, like, messing with yourself a little bit?

00:29:30.860 Yeah.

00:29:31.140 A tiny bit.

00:29:31.860 Like, a little teeny, teeny bit.

00:29:33.740 Like, you know, because you put a lot of time in.

00:29:36.440 When's Tyson's birthday, by the way?

00:29:37.660 When is his birthday?

00:29:38.380 Tyson was June 30th.

00:29:41.600 So, so.

00:29:42.280 Cancer.

00:29:42.800 Oh, he's a month before his cancer.

00:29:44.440 And he said cancers were good, too.

00:29:46.020 He said cancers were good, too.

00:29:47.080 Yeah.

00:29:47.820 Did he say Aquarius were good because they were most coachable and willing to be taught and they

00:29:51.860 could control themselves?

00:29:52.540 Yes.

00:29:52.640 Because that's a big quality that you guys would.

00:29:54.260 It was all about controlling your emotions.

00:29:56.680 You know.

00:29:57.020 I can see that with Aquarius.

00:29:58.100 Being calm in an un-calmed place.

00:30:00.580 Being calm in an un-calmed place.

00:30:01.740 So how many similarities between your father and between Cuss?

00:30:05.540 You know, my father didn't talk.

00:30:09.760 Cuss talked.

00:30:11.360 Cuss taught you how to articulate things.

00:30:13.420 My father taught you by doing.

00:30:16.120 Not that Cuss wasn't real.

00:30:18.200 He was.

00:30:18.740 He was a special man, a great man.

00:30:20.840 But Cuss, Cuss had some flaws my father didn't have.

00:30:25.320 And at the end of the day, you know, Cuss was in a race against, you know, time and against

00:30:31.180 death maybe where, you know, he wanted to have another champion.

00:30:34.760 And he let a few things go with Tyson.

00:30:38.620 And I'm not, I understand it better now.

00:30:41.160 Because if I was in the same position, what would I have done?

00:30:44.000 I don't know.

00:30:45.020 I don't know.

00:30:45.920 If I was in a position, Cuss was, where I had two, I had world champions before and

00:30:50.860 my whole life was boxing.

00:30:52.700 I didn't have nothing else.

00:30:53.820 I never got married.

00:30:54.760 I only married boxing.

00:30:56.460 Everything was about legacy.

00:30:57.900 Everything was about, attached to that.

00:30:59.900 And I had one special guy and I was getting old.

00:31:03.820 I was getting closer to dying.

00:31:05.160 And I needed this guy to fulfill, to make everything worthwhile.

00:31:10.160 What would I do?

00:31:11.480 And Cuss let a few things go.

00:31:13.800 But my father didn't let none go.

00:31:16.540 My father never made deals.

00:31:19.000 Deals meaning what?

00:31:20.120 Deals like, like when, when Cuss, Cuss let certain behavior with Tyson go, even the way

00:31:31.440 he treated him, which you're not going to hear about, you know.

00:31:35.320 The way Tyson treated Cuss?

00:31:36.780 Yeah.

00:31:37.440 Got it.

00:31:37.740 It wasn't always so good.

00:31:40.260 I'm not here to...

00:31:41.440 Was he patient and tolerant?

00:31:42.900 Is that because Cuss understood that maybe he's going through a maturity level?

00:31:45.620 He came from a tough place, Tyson, from Brownsville, where he had to be understood those things

00:31:51.400 that where he, the way he was brought up, that you had to have a tolerance and understanding

00:31:58.660 and appreciation for where he came from.

00:32:01.160 But there's still things that, that you draw a line with when, when you're in school in

00:32:08.400 the hallway and you're pushing girls into the bathroom in the middle of a busy hallway

00:32:13.400 and you're just banging them into the bathroom so you could touch them and do other, whatever.

00:32:18.020 And, and you're going against teachers and getting physical and doing some other things.

00:32:24.680 You know, I mean, I don't think it's a secret now.

00:32:26.600 I think that, you know, um, and then you, you allow the, you go and talk to the principal

00:32:34.120 and say, we have a special kid here.

00:32:35.960 He's going to make the town famous.

00:32:37.260 You know, he's going to make history and he could be a very, very, very special fighter.

00:32:43.640 Well, you, you, I don't know, you're doing more than making allowances.

00:32:47.880 You're doing more than understanding, um, that there's going to be some understanding

00:32:52.400 for the specialness of this kid and the things that he's suffering from and the things that

00:32:57.200 he can't quite get grips on.

00:32:59.200 You're not, you're not really helping him get a grip on it.

00:33:01.620 You're helping him avoid it, right?

00:33:04.260 I mean, that kind of becomes avoidance more than it becomes, you know, helping somebody

00:33:09.080 get better at something.

00:33:11.180 And listen, again, it's easy for me.

00:33:15.680 I was in that gym, 18, 19 years old, training fighters.

00:33:19.640 Cus would come once a week, maybe once every two weeks, just to see what was going on.

00:33:24.780 And, and I was just working training fighters, developing fighters.

00:33:28.320 And Cus would give me the, he didn't give me money, but he gave me the food.

00:33:32.720 He gave me the nourishment I need.

00:33:34.060 He gave me what I need.

00:33:35.080 He would come in and say, look at this.

00:33:36.800 Atlas is developing, he's developing a stable of fighters here.

00:33:41.200 Look at what he's doing.

00:33:42.620 And I felt so good, you know, I felt so big.

00:33:45.200 And I was developing these fighters and doing the job.

00:33:48.400 And Cus would come, like I said, once, twice a week, he would come and he'd overlook it

00:33:53.280 and he'd see it and make me feel very proud and, and he was a special guy and all that.

00:34:00.320 And then all of a sudden, when Tyson came along, we, we had rules where I made the rules.

00:34:09.840 If a kid failed a subject in school, he would stay out of the gym till he got caught up with

00:34:16.360 that subject and passed that subject.

00:34:18.900 And, you know, so we had these rules and it made sense, not just as humanitarians.

00:34:24.760 Let's not try to paint ourselves like we're, we're opening a monk house here.

00:34:28.520 But, but how are you going to get parents from a small town to allow their kids to go

00:34:32.240 if you're not looking out for the kid more than just teaching them to get a flat nose?

00:34:36.340 Hopefully not get a flat nose.

00:34:38.080 Hopefully we slip the punches, we don't get them.

00:34:40.660 But, you know, you got to be doing more.

00:34:43.240 So part of it made sense that we did care about them, but I'm just saying that it made sense

00:34:50.060 to take that approach, to say, hey, they got to do good in school.

00:34:52.780 They got to behave outside the gym.

00:34:54.900 They got to do, so we had all these rules.

00:34:57.060 When, when Tyson started having problems in school, he, and I threw him out of the gym,

00:35:03.360 the same way as I did the other kids, because we'd let him back in.

00:35:08.420 And, you know, it started for the first time, me and him started, he didn't back me up for

00:35:13.900 the first time ever.

00:35:14.880 You felt undermined.

00:35:15.740 Yeah.

00:35:16.140 And, and listen, again, you got to remember, I was a young kid.

00:35:19.940 I was in there training and Cus helped me and he saved me because I was an idiot out

00:35:24.200 on the street.

00:35:25.020 And if it wasn't for him and my father, because my father was paying for me to be up there.

00:35:29.820 It was only $50 a week, but I didn't have $50 a week.

00:35:32.860 I, I, I didn't have $200 a month and, you know, he was, I remember Cus would say to

00:35:39.600 me, he goes, you know, you'd have to pay a lot more for a college education.

00:35:45.220 He goes, you're getting a college education.

00:35:47.800 It's just that it's in this.

00:35:49.440 I said, yeah, sounds right.

00:35:51.440 You know, and, and all I'm doing is, I'm doing what I'm supposed to do.

00:35:56.040 I'm teaching a kid to move his head after he punches.

00:35:58.400 I'm teaching a kid to understand range and distance.

00:36:01.140 I'm teaching a kid to control his feelings, not to give in, not to submit, not to make

00:36:06.300 silent agreements.

00:36:07.760 Like when you get inside and, and you don't feel like working, what do you do?

00:36:11.480 You put your hands behind the guy, the guy holds onto you.

00:36:13.660 Silent agreement.

00:36:14.860 Because you know, you know that the guy most likely will hold onto you because you don't

00:36:19.460 hit me, I won't hit you.

00:36:20.680 You're basically saying, hey, get inside, you're supposed to hit the guy, right?

00:36:24.080 You put your hands behind him.

00:36:25.480 Maybe if the guy's a little weak, he'll hold onto you.

00:36:28.180 And now you told him, if you don't hit me, I won't hit you.

00:36:32.200 Silent agreement.

00:36:33.940 Wow.

00:36:34.580 That's technical.

00:36:35.780 Yeah.

00:36:37.000 Because that's real.

00:36:37.880 That's what, that's the business I'm in.

00:36:39.660 You better understand that stuff.

00:36:41.220 Understand, otherwise you just know X's and O's.

00:36:43.700 I'll turn this into a blackboard and I'll look like a genius.

00:36:46.760 But when I get out there with a real fighter, I won't, I stick that up my, you know what?

00:36:52.380 It ain't going to help.

00:36:53.160 You got to understand what's really going on under pressure, how a person's thinking.

00:36:57.680 So I'm in the gym, that's my whole life.

00:37:00.380 I'm in the gym making fighters and, and all it's about, if you don't go to school, get

00:37:05.340 out of the gym.

00:37:06.200 You come in late, get out of here.

00:37:09.060 Teddy, I'm 10 minutes late.

00:37:10.460 Yeah, you didn't have the discipline to be late.

00:37:12.560 You don't have the discipline to, to, to do what you have to do in the ring either.

00:37:16.080 Were you feared?

00:37:17.100 Were you feared or respected?

00:37:18.320 I don't know.

00:37:18.980 I mean, I'm, I'm not in the Bronx tale, so I don't know when the, I know when the-

00:37:23.000 We know what I'm talking about.

00:37:23.780 No, I know, I'm just saying, kidding around, like, it would be, I don't know.

00:37:27.660 The truth of it is, they believe me.

00:37:31.300 They just believe me.

00:37:32.900 I, I, again, we all want to pat ourselves on the back and, and we want to be romantic

00:37:37.600 and we, and, you know, someone like the guy you mentioned before would probably say

00:37:41.580 I was feared and it was, and then like, you know, you say, well, fear lasts longer or

00:37:47.740 something like that.

00:37:48.780 But I was in a real world.

00:37:51.380 I was with real people having real feelings.

00:37:54.540 I guess, I guess my question would be this.

00:37:56.120 This, this is the part.

00:37:56.760 No, but what I just want to make sure I say right is I was in a world with real people

00:38:01.800 with real kids that were having trouble with these emotions.

00:38:05.040 And they saw what I was telling them as a light to a dark place they were going into.

00:38:11.560 That's what I was.

00:38:12.620 I got it.

00:38:13.260 That, that was real.

00:38:14.120 I got it.

00:38:14.400 In other words, I'm going into a scary place, right?

00:38:16.960 This guy's telling me what I need for that light to see where the frick I'm going.

00:38:21.320 And, and, and if, and if I don't understand that, you know what?

00:38:25.440 I have no shot.

00:38:26.300 It's scary enough that I'm going into that.

00:38:28.680 And here's the thing I wanted to say was at the end of the day, I'm doing this.

00:38:33.380 I'm living this life.

00:38:34.160 I'm doing everything by the book and by my instincts, whatever those instincts are,

00:38:39.880 they're growing.

00:38:41.000 And, and I'm forming fighters.

00:38:43.120 And like I said, you're late.

00:38:44.540 Hey, get out of here.

00:38:45.360 Teddy, I was telling you, get out of here.

00:38:47.680 You're coming tomorrow on time.

00:38:49.320 You can train because if you can't be on time, if you can't control yourself to be on time,

00:38:53.740 you, you can't control yourself in here.

00:38:55.220 So I'm doing all this, right?

00:38:57.500 And it was simple.

00:38:59.940 It was black or white.

00:39:01.800 Cuzz had a thing hanging over his head.

00:39:04.160 He was getting older.

00:39:05.540 He already knew what it was.

00:39:06.540 I didn't know what it was to have champions.

00:39:08.620 He already knew what it was to have fame and, and, and all this stuff.

00:39:12.620 All I was doing was going up.

00:39:14.260 I was just working.

00:39:15.820 I didn't know there was anything underneath.

00:39:18.360 Cuzz knew there was something underneath.

00:39:19.840 Cuzz, because when he started compromising himself and making decisions that hurt me to let Tyson go, and people sometimes now, years later, they go, hey, Ted, you know, you, you, you, you didn't get, what do you mean?

00:39:32.960 Don't give me no credit.

00:39:34.000 I was just this kid who, I was coloring by the numbers.

00:39:37.760 I, I, I, I, number one, red.

00:39:41.220 Number two, black.

00:39:42.600 I, I, I shouldn't get any credit because I, I was just doing, I didn't know that there could be fame.

00:39:49.260 I didn't know that, what it would feel like to have champions and everything.

00:39:53.140 I was just doing what, what I had to do to go forward.

00:39:55.820 And Cuzz knew.

00:39:57.360 Cuzz knew what it was and what he might not have.

00:40:00.320 And he knew that the clock was ticking.

00:40:02.240 Cuzz had an anvil over his head that I didn't have.

00:40:04.740 And I understand that now.

00:40:06.220 I understand that now.

00:40:07.040 Let me ask you, what is, what is Cuzz's motivation?

00:40:10.960 Because you're saying he never married anybody.

00:40:12.500 He married boxing.

00:40:13.740 Who was he trying to, what was he trying to prove?

00:40:16.760 I mean, this is a guy that made it at a highest level, you know, all these champions, all these people he's built.

00:40:22.660 What was he doing it for?

00:40:24.000 What was his motivation coming from?

00:40:25.680 He could make people better.

00:40:27.380 Yeah, but why continue doing it?

00:40:28.700 When you keep doing it, there's got to be a bigger reason than just, you know, it can't be money.

00:40:33.360 It's got to be something bigger than that.

00:40:34.460 He could get credit for that.

00:40:35.780 He would what?

00:40:36.420 Get credit for it.

00:40:37.560 And that drove him?

00:40:38.880 The recognition part?

00:40:40.460 What could be, what money could ever satisfy knowing that you could make champions?

00:40:46.540 What money could ever be better than that?

00:40:48.080 Not going to happen.

00:40:49.240 Yeah.

00:40:49.800 He could make champions.

00:40:51.620 He could make champions.

00:40:52.760 He almost believed that he could instill his will into somebody to be a champion.

00:40:58.220 God, that's a powerful statement you just made.

00:41:01.620 And did you see him do that?

00:41:03.120 Like when he said, you're a lion, you're a Leo.

00:41:05.320 Was he more a willpower guy?

00:41:07.760 Was he more a skill guy?

00:41:09.220 Will.

00:41:09.440 You know what one of his sayings was to me as an 18-year-old, 19, 20, 21, 22?

00:41:15.000 He used to say, Teddy, always remember this.

00:41:18.400 Will will always defeat skill.

00:41:21.180 Unless.

00:41:22.340 There was an unless.

00:41:23.780 Because he was a man of, he was a practical man.

00:41:26.620 And he had to have those answers.

00:41:28.900 He said, unless one man's skill is so far superior that his will never gets tested.

00:41:36.320 And that was Tyson.

00:41:37.880 That his will never gets tested.

00:41:39.680 Tyson didn't have a strong will.

00:41:41.900 But he had great, great skills.

00:41:43.620 And when his skills were so dominant, which they were, which they were for a long time

00:41:48.180 until he met somebody named Holyfield and Douglas, but up until then, his skills were so far,

00:41:55.180 he was like one of those monster trucks going over a Volkswagen.

00:41:58.380 I mean, it never got tested.

00:41:59.780 The Volkswagen might have a pretty good engine, but you were only going to find out because

00:42:04.260 it got crushed.

00:42:05.440 It might have, because the body wasn't able to tolerate what maybe the engine later on

00:42:10.900 could show you it could do.

00:42:12.940 So Tyson would run over everybody with his great skills, and those people never got a

00:42:20.180 chance to find out where he was empty, to look inside, to check those places, to look

00:42:27.680 and to, you know, to just travel into those places to find out where he might be weak.

00:42:34.900 They didn't, they didn't, his abilities never let him get to that place, never let him get

00:42:40.240 tested until one day he got tested.

00:42:45.060 Did, when, when Cuss, when Cuss died, do you think he was borrowing Cuss's will?

00:42:51.340 So when that, when he died, his willpower also died?

00:42:53.800 Is that, do you kind of see a parallel there or no?

00:42:55.480 That Tyson was grabbing Cuss's will?

00:42:57.040 His will.

00:42:58.120 That's not something you can borrow.

00:43:00.720 But what you're saying is, will, Cuss felt he can impose his will on you for you?

00:43:05.080 Yeah, but you can't.

00:43:05.960 You can't.

00:43:06.780 I got it.

00:43:07.240 I mean, you can make somebody aware of something, and if they're willing to face what they have

00:43:14.620 to face once you make them aware of it, that they might not have been aware of interesting

00:43:17.940 things.

00:43:18.460 You can help them, but they got to be willing to face that devil at the door.

00:43:24.080 You know, when that devil knocks at the door, you know, you can't just lock the door.

00:43:28.080 You know, you got to be willing to say.

00:43:32.560 So true.

00:43:33.460 Did you ever see anybody that flipped, that went from no willpower to a little bit of willpower

00:43:37.440 to a strong willpower?

00:43:38.360 Yeah.

00:43:38.860 Who was it?

00:43:39.780 Larry Holmes.

00:43:40.480 Okay.

00:43:41.220 Larry Holmes, when he was an amateur, and Cuss made me very aware of it, and I got all the

00:43:45.660 respect for Larry.

00:43:47.200 He, I hate to say this, but hey, Larry's a great, great, great, great champion and multi-millionaire,

00:43:54.280 and you know what?

00:43:55.920 You can say things because he got there.

00:43:58.220 He got there.

00:43:59.100 I think it makes him greater.

00:44:00.860 So I'm going to say it.

00:44:01.900 He was in a fight.

00:44:02.740 I think the guy's name was Nick Wells.

00:44:04.620 Don't ask me how I can remember this.

00:44:06.000 And he was in the amateurs, and he lost the fight in the amateurs to this guy.

00:44:11.620 Supposedly he quit.

00:44:13.140 And Cuss would say, you know, people said he was a dog and people, and again, that shows

00:44:17.920 you again how great Larry Holmes to overcome that because you can't have courage if you

00:44:23.740 don't have fear.

00:44:24.580 How are you going to have courage if you're not scared of something?

00:44:27.080 What is courage without being scared of something?

00:44:29.920 Courage is overcoming.

00:44:31.160 Courage is facing something.

00:44:32.400 If there's nothing to overcome, nothing to face, how did you show courage?

00:44:36.840 You have to have fear.

00:44:37.940 You have to be terrified to have courage.

00:44:40.420 You have to almost be weak to have courage.

00:44:43.900 You have to have a weak moment to have courage because if you didn't have a weak moment, if

00:44:49.180 you didn't have the moment of self-doubt, of thinking about submitting, of quitting,

00:44:54.140 we hate to use that word, but then how would you have courage?

00:44:57.620 How would you display?

00:44:58.500 What would courage be?

00:44:59.460 Courage is getting past that.

00:45:02.080 It's overcoming that.

00:45:02.940 It's pulling you out of that.

00:45:04.460 So if you don't have that to pull you out of, what did courage do?

00:45:08.560 Courage didn't exist.

00:45:10.940 What does it have?

00:45:11.980 No definition.

00:45:13.480 So he was in a fight, and Cuss made me very aware of Larry.

00:45:18.600 Yeah, Larry Holmes.

00:45:19.900 I think it was Nick Wells, but whatever it was.

00:45:21.780 And according to what everyone said there, he quit.

00:45:26.480 He gave in.

00:45:27.940 And he also fought, I think he might have fought Dwayne Bobbick, too, in the Amateurs.

00:45:32.100 But anyway, he gave in.

00:45:35.680 And a lot of people said they didn't have any worth for him or any hope for him, you know,

00:45:41.920 think that he would be a great fighter because he was yellow.

00:45:45.860 Because he would, you know, once a dog, always a dog.

00:45:49.600 And Cuss said to me, listen, Teddy, he's still young enough.

00:45:54.400 He's still at a point where he has, I hate to use this word, he had an excuse.

00:46:01.240 He wasn't developed enough to understand that he could control that feeling and that he should

00:46:07.020 control that feeling.

00:46:07.980 If he doesn't give up, if he gets some help, and he doesn't give up, he can become, he can

00:46:17.500 grow in that area.

00:46:20.140 Because if he was a guy, Cuss would say, Teddy, if he was a guy who already had 300 amateur

00:46:24.740 fights and already, you know, had 20 pro fights, and he was doing that, can't help him.

00:46:31.860 Done.

00:46:32.580 Done.

00:46:33.360 Gone.

00:46:34.080 But at this point of development, lack of development, if he wants to, he can still be

00:46:43.540 helped.

00:46:44.620 He went on to be a world champion, set a record for most title defenses.

00:46:50.660 I think he might have broke Joe Lewis, who I think was the greatest heavyweight of all

00:46:53.860 time for a lot of reasons.

00:46:55.780 Allie was right behind him, just for me.

00:46:58.440 But Allie was great, of course.

00:46:59.720 Allie was great, but Larry Holmes takes those right hands from Shavers.

00:47:05.040 That's what Cuss said, Cuss said to me, because we watched the fight together.

00:47:09.000 And Cuss said, there's a pro.

00:47:12.000 He became a pro.

00:47:13.340 That was the greatest, that was the greatest compliment Cuss could give you.

00:47:17.860 He became a pro.

00:47:19.640 Wow.

00:47:20.120 Look, he got hit that right hand from Ernie Shavers, who could knock walls down with

00:47:23.760 the right hand.

00:47:24.620 One right hand, he could knock walls down.

00:47:26.460 And he got dropped and he got up.

00:47:28.600 He became a pro, Teddy.

00:47:30.740 He gave, he became a pro.

00:47:34.020 So yeah, there is.

00:47:35.740 Somebody could get that will.

00:47:37.440 Hey, there is truth to redemption.

00:47:39.400 Mm-hmm.

00:47:40.300 Redemption is a beautiful feeling, by the way.

00:47:42.240 It is a, it is a, let me ask you this with the whole fear.

00:47:45.300 You know, you hear a lot of things with fear versus danger.

00:47:49.660 Fear is imagination.

00:47:50.800 Danger is real, right?

00:47:51.940 You hear this, these two words.

00:47:53.940 So to you, you're saying courage is, there's no meaning to courage if you don't have something

00:47:58.520 to fear, to have to balance or to have to fight to tap into the fear.

00:48:03.000 But what is the difference between fear and danger to you?

00:48:05.880 You're not in a fight, okay?

00:48:07.840 You're not in a fight until there's resistance.

00:48:10.820 Up until the point there's resistance or something to overcome.

00:48:13.920 Mm-hmm.

00:48:14.080 It's just an athletic venture.

00:48:16.240 You're showing how quick you are, how strong you are, how good a shape you are, how smart

00:48:21.280 you are, how tricky you are.

00:48:23.260 It's, it's an exhibition.

00:48:25.680 But then something happens.

00:48:28.440 And a moment comes and you have to overcome.

00:48:31.500 You get hurt.

00:48:32.920 Whatever.

00:48:33.540 And you have to overcome.

00:48:34.700 You have to get, you have to deal with resistance.

00:48:37.260 Then you've been in a fight.

00:48:41.200 Then you show those qualities.

00:48:43.960 Those qualities have to be there then.

00:48:46.620 You know, the difference between, what your question was between fear and danger is, you

00:48:54.420 know, danger, danger is physical.

00:48:59.920 Fear is emotional.

00:49:00.900 You know, they both do damage, buddy.

00:49:06.040 And you know that better than most people.

00:49:08.500 You know that.

00:49:09.680 Because you've been there.

00:49:11.300 You've been in those, you've walked down those tunnels.

00:49:14.620 You know, and I trained the New York Jets for three years.

00:49:20.180 I mean, it's, it's almost sad to say that they actually put me in the press book as a coach

00:49:25.960 back when Mangini and Tannenbaum was the GM and the coach.

00:49:29.760 But they asked me to come in and work with the team.

00:49:32.900 So I did.

00:49:33.740 And they called me a coach.

00:49:35.080 I wasn't a coach.

00:49:35.940 But I gave them boxing lessons.

00:49:38.160 And I talked to them.

00:49:40.000 And I would, I go right to the same places.

00:49:45.420 We're all in a fight.

00:49:46.980 I don't care if you're playing football.

00:49:48.980 I don't care if you're a lawyer.

00:49:50.760 I don't care if you're a teacher that has to go into a classroom that's not too easy

00:49:54.300 to go into and face these kids.

00:49:55.840 I don't care if you're a board member that has to go in front of people and talk.

00:50:00.300 But we're all in a fight.

00:50:01.980 We're in a fight.

00:50:03.700 And the first thing I would say to these guys when I first got their attention was,

00:50:10.060 hey, we all go into these dark rooms.

00:50:14.340 It's just a matter of whether or not we stay there or we get out.

00:50:20.560 And I used to call them the gray rooms.

00:50:23.240 I used to say, listen, when you're in there, you're in the trenches, you know,

00:50:27.540 and you've got a 300-pound guy in front of you and he's kind of ugly and he's strong

00:50:31.220 and, you know, he's going to do something to you.

00:50:33.600 And you're still going into a gray room.

00:50:37.380 You're still going into a little bit of a gray room, you know.

00:50:40.400 And then if you keep going further down that corridor, there's a black room.

00:50:45.240 You better get out of that gray room.

00:50:46.800 You better start moving this way, towards this, towards this,

00:50:50.660 where there's a little more light.

00:50:52.340 And, you know, they understood it.

00:50:54.360 I used to even use the terms, you know, we used to talk about silent agreements.

00:50:59.520 I used to say to them, you make silent agreements on a line in there sometimes?

00:51:04.620 You make silent agreements where you don't really, you look for the guy, you know,

00:51:11.660 to kind of do a waltz?

00:51:14.120 You know, you don't really, you make a little silent agreements in some ways.

00:51:17.880 Do we do that in life?

00:51:19.200 You know, I used to say, here's the tangible part of giving in.

00:51:24.560 In fighting.

00:51:25.280 Guy starts throwing a don't hit me punch.

00:51:27.360 When I was doing the ESPN ringside fights, I would use that term.

00:51:31.660 Oh, he's throwing don't hit me.

00:51:32.620 What do you mean don't hit me punches?

00:51:34.160 You don't hit me, I won't hit you.

00:51:35.820 Don't, just don't hit me.

00:51:37.480 I'm going, bang, bang, not that.

00:51:39.180 Because that'll hurt the guy and then the guy's going to respond.

00:51:41.780 And he might hurt your back.

00:51:43.880 But you throw a don't hit me.

00:51:46.120 You know, don't hit me, I won't hit you.

00:51:47.760 So I would say to the lineman, do you ever throw don't hit me blocks?

00:51:51.860 Wow.

00:51:52.640 And you know what?

00:51:53.540 Some of these honest guys?

00:51:55.300 Coach.

00:51:56.960 I, yeah.

00:51:59.180 Coach, yeah.

00:52:01.080 I threw a couple of don't hit me blocks where I'm supposed to, you know.

00:52:05.900 And listen.

00:52:07.600 And what is it?

00:52:08.480 What are you afraid of?

00:52:10.180 It's the physical fear.

00:52:12.420 You've hit it right on the head.

00:52:14.420 You know, it's the physical danger, the physical danger.

00:52:17.480 But it's also the emotional of being embarrassed, of failing, of being found out.

00:52:30.400 None of us want to be found out.

00:52:32.040 That's powerful.

00:52:38.420 That's the world you're in where you are going to be found out.

00:52:41.900 Yeah.

00:52:42.120 That's the part that...

00:52:44.240 Let me ask you.

00:52:45.940 How much of Cuss's style, when you watch Cuss, how much of it was, let's just say you're

00:52:51.940 somebody who's training.

00:52:52.760 Teddy, let's see how bad you want it.

00:52:54.220 Let's see if you got it.

00:52:55.640 Let's see if you got the goodies.

00:52:56.640 Let's see if you can fight through your fear.

00:52:58.080 Let's see if you got...

00:52:58.800 And how much of it was, you can do it, Teddy.

00:53:00.800 Go get him.

00:53:01.620 Go kick his ass.

00:53:03.000 Because it's a different style of leadership, right?

00:53:04.940 It's a completely different style of leadership.

00:53:06.680 Which style was Cuss more?

00:53:08.600 Or was it a completely different style than what I'm talking about?

00:53:10.620 No.

00:53:11.020 You're on the button.

00:53:11.880 You're on the right path.

00:53:14.400 Cuss was about teaching.

00:53:16.340 Cuss was about believing.

00:53:17.840 Cuss was about substance, tangible.

00:53:22.240 That sooner or later, the ring was a chamber of truth.

00:53:25.840 Sooner or later, someone's going to figure out.

00:53:28.240 You can BS them all you want.

00:53:29.800 They're going to get in there.

00:53:30.560 They're going to figure out you were full of crap.

00:53:32.800 That your stuff ain't helping them.

00:53:34.260 Chamber of truth.

00:53:35.420 Your stuff ain't helping them.

00:53:37.620 You better tell them the truth.

00:53:40.340 You better tell them what's there.

00:53:43.380 What's coming.

00:53:45.540 What they're going to be facing.

00:53:47.960 And part of the way you tell them is you explain to them.

00:53:50.660 I would talk to fighters and I would say, and Cuss would say, yeah.

00:53:54.900 There you go.

00:53:55.920 See, I told you you're a great leader.

00:53:58.340 Again, he's not paying me.

00:53:59.640 He had to give me something to bulk me up.

00:54:02.140 But I was progressing.

00:54:04.920 And I would say, I would talk about the things that made sense to talk about.

00:54:11.180 That I knew they were feeling.

00:54:14.520 Before it came out in the open.

00:54:17.500 To let them know that I understood.

00:54:20.800 That I understood what was there.

00:54:23.620 What they were thinking.

00:54:24.220 When I took kids, amateur kids, when I was developing, it was time to take them to fights.

00:54:27.820 I'd take them down to South Bronx to get fights.

00:54:30.160 And I would have them sitting in the locker room, dressing room, waiting.

00:54:35.000 And I'd have a young kid sitting there.

00:54:36.700 You know, the way you're supposed to look like.

00:54:39.460 And I'd come by.

00:54:40.540 But I knew they were dying.

00:54:41.640 So I'd come by and say, you know, I didn't even see your shirt moving.

00:54:46.540 And I'd be joking around like the hard part.

00:54:51.440 I didn't even.

00:54:52.160 You know, I could hardly tell you.

00:54:53.640 And the kid go.

00:54:55.680 They can't help it.

00:54:57.060 They could do it.

00:54:58.100 I said, no, it's not showing.

00:55:00.500 I said, it's not showing.

00:55:01.960 But I know how you feel.

00:55:03.440 Like because he was, you know.

00:55:05.080 And then sometimes we'd be going down.

00:55:06.760 We'd be driving down in a station wagon, right?

00:55:09.160 Going down.

00:55:09.820 You know where we're going.

00:55:10.700 We ain't going to have ice cream.

00:55:12.540 We're not going to Dairy Queen.

00:55:14.300 We're going to fight in the South Bronx in club shows.

00:55:17.900 Smokers.

00:55:18.700 Tough place.

00:55:19.880 So we're driving.

00:55:21.160 And I used to say to the kids, so how many of you wishing I'd get a flat tire right about now?

00:55:26.400 No, we don't want no flat tire.

00:55:28.060 Teddy, we don't know him.

00:55:29.560 All right.

00:55:30.840 A few years later when the kids were out of boxing, they were growing up.

00:55:34.580 They were, some of them going to college.

00:55:36.680 You know, and I'm proud of all these kids.

00:55:38.620 Teddy, remember when you said, we were hoping you'd get a flat tire.

00:55:42.220 And you know what else they say?

00:55:44.860 What's that?

00:55:45.800 But we knew you'd fix it.

00:55:47.680 Wow.

00:55:49.180 Got it.

00:55:50.360 So you, so, so, because what I read about you, Teddy, you tested your guys.

00:55:55.040 You gave them, you gave them the, is the story true about you testing Michael Moore when he's

00:55:59.740 coming to the corner, you take, you're not going to sit down right now, I'm going to sit

00:56:02.160 down, stand up, you haven't earned the right to sit down.

00:56:04.500 Did you say things like that to your guys or no?

00:56:06.580 Yeah, it's on tape.

00:56:08.600 So you can't, can't kind of hide from it.

00:56:11.580 You know, I'm just glad.

00:56:13.180 Oh, it's on tape when you said it to Michael?

00:56:14.800 Yeah.

00:56:15.240 Oh, okay.

00:56:15.700 Yeah, it was on HBO.

00:56:17.640 So it's, it's there to see.

00:56:20.000 But I mean, I'm just glad he didn't say, yeah, you sit down, you, you go fight.

00:56:24.320 I'm glad that he, that he did what he did, which was behave like a guy who wanted to

00:56:29.820 be a champion.

00:56:30.820 How different is it when you're.

00:56:32.260 Which he did.

00:56:32.780 I didn't do the, that's one thing that should be really clear.

00:56:35.880 I didn't win that fight against Holyfield, he did.

00:56:38.580 I did my job, but he, more importantly, he did his job.

00:56:42.420 He did his job and he freaking did it good.

00:56:44.820 How different, how much, how different is it?

00:56:47.340 We're at the gym, you're training with me and I'm looking good, okay?

00:56:50.560 And you're working with me and you're testing me.

00:56:52.540 Sure.

00:56:52.720 I'm looking good.

00:56:53.220 I'm going to a couple of things.

00:56:54.240 You're watching, I'm doing good.

00:56:55.400 And then it's the real fight.

00:56:57.780 How much do you change?

00:56:59.780 And how much do you learn about the guy that you're training?

00:57:02.820 So does Teddy change in the corner different than the way you're training me at the gym

00:57:06.960 or no?

00:57:07.660 No.

00:57:08.460 Okay.

00:57:08.820 But, but it's.

00:57:10.100 Is it re-reminders?

00:57:11.380 Yeah.

00:57:11.780 Okay.

00:57:12.060 Listen, I don't, they're going to hear some of the same things they heard every day in

00:57:15.700 the gym.

00:57:16.620 They're going to hear some of the same stuff.

00:57:17.920 Okay, so it's nothing where.

00:57:18.640 No, but, but it becomes more intensified.

00:57:21.260 You know, it becomes that, that, that beam of sun going into the prism glass and it's

00:57:28.640 still the beam of sun and you're still getting light and you're still getting the sun every

00:57:32.260 day.

00:57:32.440 But now when you put that, when you put that, you know, that prism glass there, that magnifying

00:57:38.900 glass there, it comes out a little stronger, a lot stronger.

00:57:43.180 Well, this is the moment.

00:57:45.040 This is the moment, baby.

00:57:46.400 This is it.

00:57:47.080 This is everything we trained for.

00:57:48.200 So I'm going to be a little bit more stronger and, and forceful about it than I might've

00:57:55.520 been in the gym or, or put it this way, more concentrated.

00:58:00.820 You know, it's, it's, it's still the detergent you're putting on your clothes, but this is

00:58:05.200 the, the high, uh, the, the stuff that's more, just more concentrated.

00:58:12.880 I mean, it's, it's strong.

00:58:15.720 Who's the, who's the guy you saw over the years who you would say the best in skill set,

00:58:20.560 the best in skill.

00:58:21.840 And then who would you say you've seen over the years who was the best in will as a fighter?

00:58:26.520 Oh, wow.

00:58:28.960 I mean, there were so many in, in great skills.

00:58:32.980 Uh, I mean, Sugar Ray Leonard was a great skilled guy.

00:58:36.020 Uh, you know, um, Mayweather, great skilled guy, you know, and he had great wills too.

00:58:42.940 Um, but then usually it's the guy with less skill that might have the greater will because

00:58:48.240 he needs it.

00:58:49.100 There was a, there was a kid years ago named, uh, Danny Little Red Lopez.

00:58:56.420 It was back in the seventies and the eighties.

00:58:58.620 I used to watch him with Cuss, good right hand puncher, but he got hit too much.

00:59:03.400 But man, he knocked everyone out.

00:59:04.800 He beat everyone.

00:59:05.620 He got on the floor.

00:59:06.380 He got off the floor.

00:59:08.300 Aaron Pryor.

00:59:09.480 Oh my God.

00:59:10.280 Before drugs got a hold of him.

00:59:11.960 What a will he had.

00:59:13.120 He wins the title against a guy named Kid Pompilay.

00:59:16.180 Antonio Cervantes, a great fighter.

00:59:18.480 He wins the title.

00:59:19.220 Some guys get like half free rides when they fight for the title.

00:59:22.460 You know, they get softer touches.

00:59:24.220 Nothing here.

00:59:25.460 He fights Cervantes.

00:59:26.980 He gets dropped.

00:59:28.680 He gets dropped.

00:59:29.180 As they're counting, because you got to give an eight count, and Cervantes is waiting for

00:59:33.180 them to count, right?

00:59:34.540 They're counting Pryor.

00:59:36.020 Pryor does a backflip.

00:59:37.780 And the referee's like, what's going on here?

00:59:41.140 Hey, hey.

00:59:42.280 And like he's trying to sort things out here.

00:59:45.160 And here's Pryor doing this.

00:59:47.920 And Cervantes is like melting right in front of you.

00:59:51.280 Like an ice cream on a July day.

00:59:53.760 Like, what the freak?

00:59:56.140 Like, I got the skills, obviously.

00:59:58.600 I just put them on the floor.

00:59:59.740 But what does this guy got?

01:00:01.260 Oh, shit.

01:00:02.260 So that was one of the greatest wills I ever saw, was Aaron Pryor, to be honest with you.

01:00:07.080 And the ones that I, you know, what I just touched on, you know, that I just, that I mentioned.

01:00:15.020 On the skill side, Leonard and Mayweather.

01:00:17.260 Yeah, Mayweather, Leonard, Ali.

01:00:19.300 I mean, who?

01:00:19.920 Ali, skill, and Will?

01:00:21.080 Well, yeah, because there was two Ali's.

01:00:23.420 You know, the first Ali was before that three and a half year layoff when he refused to go in the army.

01:00:29.860 Where he beat you with speed and skill.

01:00:33.200 And then after three and a half years off, he didn't have that anymore.

01:00:37.640 And he had to find something that he never knew he had to that level.

01:00:42.580 Complete, complete will.

01:00:46.040 I mean, I'm talking about supreme will.

01:00:48.840 Klaus once told me there was only two fighters he ever saw that had supreme confidence.

01:00:53.340 That they believed there was no way that you could beat them.

01:00:56.820 Sugar Ray Robinson and Muhammad Ali.

01:00:59.500 That they had that.

01:01:01.440 And it was a quality just as important, more important than speed or power or footwork.

01:01:06.760 It's a quality.

01:01:08.100 Just like I believe that character in a person is a quality.

01:01:10.620 I believe Tyson didn't have it and it finally showed up.

01:01:13.880 His skill got him to where it got him.

01:01:15.680 Don't get me wrong.

01:01:16.420 But character, that sooner or later, sooner or later you're going to need that.

01:01:22.920 That that is, that's going to show up.

01:01:27.140 That if you're missing it, it's going to show up.

01:01:30.940 But sooner or later you're, because people say, well define character, Teddy.

01:01:36.540 Like I can understand speed.

01:01:38.300 I understand power.

01:01:39.720 I understand slickness.

01:01:41.180 But what do you mean that character is a quality?

01:01:44.980 How about being dependable?

01:01:46.500 Wouldn't you rather have a friend that's dependable than one that's not dependable?

01:01:49.800 I would.

01:01:51.180 But wouldn't you rather have a fighter that's dependable than one that's not?

01:01:54.620 That's character.

01:01:55.880 And when the moment came, was Tyson dependable?

01:01:58.140 I'm not knocking him.

01:01:59.580 I'm going to tell you now.

01:02:00.840 So those haters out there that are saying, oh, Teddy, you're the, one of the greatest

01:02:05.540 punches ever, one of the greatest combinations of speed and power ever, one of the greatest

01:02:11.080 switch hitters like Mickey Mantle that could hit on the left side or the right side of the

01:02:14.900 plate, lefty or righty, could knock you dead.

01:02:18.220 You know, one of the greatest finishers ever when he hurt you.

01:02:21.340 I mean, he had all those things.

01:02:24.500 So I'm the first to say that.

01:02:26.660 But he wasn't dependable.

01:02:28.940 He wasn't dependable.

01:02:30.460 Because when he had to be dependable, he was off somewhere else.

01:02:34.360 He wasn't there.

01:02:36.420 I want a guy who's dependable.

01:02:38.480 I want a friend who's dependable.

01:02:41.080 You know, it's crazy.

01:02:42.640 There's a book out there called Something About CEOs.

01:02:47.460 And they did a research on what qualities of an employee helped them eventually become

01:02:53.580 a CEO of a company.

01:02:54.800 And it was reliability, which is the same as being dependable.

01:02:58.360 And it was number one about everybody else.

01:03:00.240 When people said, why do you enjoy following the CEO?

01:03:02.120 They would say, because he is reliable.

01:03:04.140 And eventually he ends up having a group of people that want to work for him because he's

01:03:08.060 reliable.

01:03:08.440 You asked me earlier about Cuss, right?

01:03:10.160 That's so powerful.

01:03:10.860 You asked me earlier about how Cuss and what he wanted me to be.

01:03:13.840 I had to be reliable as a teacher because if you lie to these guys and they get in the

01:03:18.320 ring and that freaking stuff is coming at them, oh, holy crap.

01:03:22.720 He didn't tell me the truth.

01:03:24.500 I couldn't rely on what he told me.

01:03:26.420 You told people, if I'm a guy for you and I'm not ready to fight somebody, you would tell

01:03:30.300 me I'm not ready to fight that guy.

01:03:31.780 Would you tell me that if I'm your fighter?

01:03:33.700 Are you kidding me?

01:03:35.600 Yeah.

01:03:36.580 How would you have that conversation with me?

01:03:38.740 You ain't ready.

01:03:39.360 You, you, you, you, you, first of all, at an earlier stage, I've actually told some

01:03:46.180 people not to box anymore at an earlier stage.

01:03:48.840 Retire, get out of the game.

01:03:50.260 Yeah, because I didn't think that they could get to the place, to a place to make impact

01:03:56.380 money, to, to, to be able to really be worth it for them, um, where they, where it would

01:04:07.140 be worthwhile with the risks they were taking.

01:04:09.500 There's a risk in this business.

01:04:10.720 Of course.

01:04:10.980 All right?

01:04:11.380 Yeah.

01:04:11.520 Not just a risk, physical risk, but a risk of time.

01:04:14.920 A risk, a risk of, of involvement.

01:04:18.520 A risk of, would you, dedication, would you dedicate, dedicate yourself, if, if you're

01:04:24.980 not going to be able to have a chance to get there, take that same dedication and use it

01:04:29.440 for somewhere you can get to.

01:04:30.740 I had a kid years ago when I had Tyson up there.

01:04:33.200 Great kid.

01:04:33.920 Great kid.

01:04:35.000 And he was a heavyweight.

01:04:36.500 He played a little, um, football at a pretty good level.

01:04:40.280 He went to Lehigh, uh, with a scholarship.

01:04:42.800 You know, I think that was Division I.

01:04:44.920 I think he got a cup of tea with the Cleveland Browns, you know, just like a quick tryout.

01:04:49.620 Whatever.

01:04:50.200 Physical guy.

01:04:51.760 And heavyweight.

01:04:53.140 He wasn't going to make it.

01:04:54.740 I mean, you know, he, he could be okay, but he wasn't going to make it.

01:04:58.120 There came a moment where there was state police tests were coming up, up there.

01:05:01.940 And he came to me.

01:05:02.800 Great kid.

01:05:03.700 Great person.

01:05:04.540 He came to me.

01:05:05.240 He said, Teddy, what do you think?

01:05:06.920 Take the state police test.

01:05:11.040 Got it.

01:05:12.700 Yeah.

01:05:12.940 And you know what?

01:05:13.700 I've been, I haven't had touch with him, but I heard he's in BCI.

01:05:17.080 I heard he moved up the ladder.

01:05:19.900 Future boxing.

01:05:21.660 Future boxing.

01:05:22.740 Obviously, I'll give you mine.

01:05:24.600 I want to hear what you're going to say about this on what I feel about the world of boxing.

01:05:28.460 I used to be a fan.

01:05:29.240 I used to follow it.

01:05:29.940 I enjoyed it.

01:05:31.080 I don't believe it anymore because I think there's way too much politics.

01:05:34.120 And I have had Buster here.

01:05:35.160 I had Joe Cortez here.

01:05:36.780 We've had some of these guys we've sat down and they've said, well, you know, the scoring system is not working

01:05:41.020 because the best way to really have judges look at the fight is from the top.

01:05:45.540 Joe said, you've got to look at the judging from the top, not from the side.

01:05:48.320 You want to know the best way?

01:05:48.480 Have honest judges.

01:05:50.000 Okay.

01:05:50.440 So that's where I'm going with this.

01:05:51.700 So how much does that affect the game of boxing, the world of boxing?

01:05:56.220 It's chasing fans.

01:05:57.680 It's chasing fans.

01:05:58.880 It hurts the credibility of the sport, but it's been around 200 years.

01:06:02.240 So it's not going away.

01:06:03.020 You don't think that's going to change it even though these judges are.

01:06:04.960 No, because people at Hollywood and all these stars and all these, they all come out for the big fights.

01:06:15.260 Why?

01:06:16.040 Why?

01:06:17.240 The same reason that people go to Lourdes to get the waters to maybe they're going to get a little healed.

01:06:23.020 Maybe the waters will help them.

01:06:24.740 They will heal them.

01:06:25.960 They come to those fights because maybe they could get better.

01:06:29.880 Maybe they can see real men in the ring, noble warriors, facing their inhibitions, facing their doubts,

01:06:36.760 facing all the dark spots inside themselves and going in there and being better.

01:06:41.600 Maybe I could be better if I get close to these guys and I watch.

01:06:45.400 That's why they all come out.

01:06:46.800 Maybe I could get touched by it.

01:06:49.060 Maybe I could face something a little bit better.

01:06:51.380 Maybe the next time that my boss is coming down the hallway, I don't go and hide in the water fountain and let water run in my mouth while I'm not drinking, just waiting for this freaking guy to leave.

01:07:03.240 Maybe I'll get stronger.

01:07:04.500 Maybe I'll get tougher.

01:07:06.040 Maybe I'll become more.

01:07:07.320 You think that's what it is?

01:07:08.180 It draws people.

01:07:09.660 It draws them to see a man face another man with all the weaknesses that we have inside ourselves, all the fears, all the doubts, all the inhibitions, all the crap that happened to us as a kid.

01:07:20.780 All the stuff that was told us that we were yellow, we were this, we were no good, we were only going to be this, we were only going to be that, and to go in there and see two men face themselves and face all those things.

01:07:32.520 It ain't the other stuff.

01:07:34.780 It's what you're facing about yourself inside, what you don't know.

01:07:39.000 And be willing to find out to know.

01:07:41.880 People want to be around that.

01:07:43.500 And I'll tell you one other thing that makes boxing great.

01:07:45.980 I think there's too many excuses in life anyway.

01:07:48.320 I've got to say that.

01:07:49.660 But sometimes, sometimes people will say life's not fair.

01:07:55.380 All right?

01:07:56.020 I know you can go on the other side and say, you've got to make it fair.

01:07:59.120 You've got to, I get it.

01:08:00.160 I get it.

01:08:01.360 I'm with you.

01:08:02.520 But sometimes you could say, you know what, it's tough.

01:08:06.100 You get born with certain genes.

01:08:08.700 You get born by certain parents.

01:08:11.700 You get born in certain places, certain colors, certain, I don't believe there's anything that holds you back now.

01:08:18.280 You know, we've, as a country, we've gone past that.

01:08:21.340 But sometimes you feel that.

01:08:23.760 You feel it.

01:08:24.700 And if you feel it, it could be real.

01:08:26.800 It don't mean it's real, but you feel it.

01:08:29.120 You think it's real.

01:08:29.840 And then that, you had poverty, you didn't have this, you didn't, you know, your clothes, you felt a little embarrassed because you were wearing hand-me-downs and your shoes had some holes in them.

01:08:41.680 And all this stuff that you didn't think was fair, all this stuff, and then on one given night, you could get in the ring.

01:08:50.280 And if you're prepared enough, if you're determined enough, if you care enough, you could be called champion of the world.

01:09:02.740 Wow.

01:09:03.220 That's pretty freaking good.

01:09:07.160 That's why people come.

01:09:09.020 That's why they come.

01:09:10.360 To see that, to witness that.

01:09:13.080 Now, UFC versus boxing.

01:09:14.680 I'm curious, your thoughts on UFC versus boxing.

01:09:16.940 Obviously, UFC's coming up tremendously right now.

01:09:20.960 It's getting a lot of credibility right now.

01:09:23.460 Do you think there will come a time where UFC's going to take over boxing?

01:09:26.140 No.

01:09:26.780 You don't think?

01:09:27.640 Boxing's been around 200 years, and boxing is just what I just said.

01:09:31.620 And it's the problem with boxing and the reason why UFC, they have their own market.

01:09:38.660 It's like having two restaurants, you know, but you're still seeing people going to both places.

01:09:43.480 Say, now another restaurant.

01:09:44.640 Oh, this restaurant's going to close.

01:09:46.840 No, because they still have patrons.

01:09:48.880 They still have people that like that food.

01:09:51.080 There's still two different markets.

01:09:52.660 People like this food, and they like this food.

01:09:55.180 So you're still going to have it.

01:09:56.460 But Dana White has done a great job of marketing his brand, marketing his sport, developing his sport.

01:10:05.900 You know, it helps to be a dictator sometimes.

01:10:08.760 I know, you know, I mean, if you don't kill nobody.

01:10:11.600 You know, if you can be completely in control, like Dana White is, and you say, hey, you fight this guy, you fight this guy.

01:10:20.380 I'm only putting competitive.

01:10:21.480 You don't like it.

01:10:22.080 Hit it.

01:10:22.360 Highway 99.

01:10:23.780 Make a left and two rights.

01:10:25.960 And if you can control it like that, you can make your product good and get away with it.

01:10:30.320 And that's part of why he gets away with it.

01:10:32.380 I'm not knocking him.

01:10:33.200 I'm saying that it works.

01:10:34.740 And that's part of why he built up his sport.

01:10:37.700 But boxing, you know, the NBA has a national commission, if you haven't heard.

01:10:42.280 The NHL, if you haven't heard, has a national commission.

01:10:46.060 MLB.

01:10:47.620 Every one of the football, NFL, they have a national commission to put rules and enforce rules for the benefit of the sport.

01:10:54.460 I'll say it again.

01:10:55.380 Not for the benefit of Tom Brady, even though he might have had a few soft footballs he was throwing over there.

01:11:01.100 I don't know.

01:11:01.560 He might have got away with that one.

01:11:02.600 But for the benefit of the sport, boxing don't have that.

01:11:07.960 Who the freak is saying you got rules and you got to abide by the rules for the best?

01:11:11.340 There is no national czar.

01:11:13.020 You got a bunch of these freaking lowlife.

01:11:15.480 I should be careful.

01:11:17.460 But what the hell?

01:11:18.280 It's too late.

01:11:19.180 I mean, there's some of these promoters that they only care about their own little piece of property.

01:11:24.720 And they control that piece of property.

01:11:26.760 They do.

01:11:27.840 They don't give a freak about the sport.

01:11:29.780 In boxing or in UFC?

01:11:31.720 You're talking about boxing.

01:11:32.460 Boxing.

01:11:33.160 Boxing.

01:11:33.700 That's the difference.

01:11:35.000 Boxing has a bunch of, not a bunch, maybe four or five power brokers, if that many, that have the networks, that have the power, that have the stable of fighters, they have the control.

01:11:44.860 And they don't care about the sport or body.

01:11:46.820 They care about their piece of land.

01:11:48.540 So they don't care if fighters fight competitive fights as long as they get to 20-0, 25-0, and they're on TV, and they're getting big checks.

01:11:57.020 They don't care if the sport is driving.

01:11:58.820 How do you control that?

01:11:59.520 They don't care if a judge gives a corrupt decision as long as it's corrupt on their side of the fence because they don't care about 20 years down the road.

01:12:09.680 They don't care about the sport overall.

01:12:11.860 They care about that they're in control, that they still have power.

01:12:15.340 How do you do it?

01:12:15.960 You have to have a national commission.

01:12:17.200 So let me ask you a question, though.

01:12:18.320 If Dana White ran boxing, he would have made the Mayweather-Pakia fight at the peak, is what you're saying.

01:12:25.980 Everybody runs boxing.

01:12:26.940 I get that.

01:12:27.400 It's too big.

01:12:27.740 If it was, if it was ran, it obviously can't revert back to an abogalic.

01:12:32.440 If there could be such a thing as a national czar in boxing, yeah, he would say no.

01:12:38.680 You want to fight?

01:12:39.580 This is who you've got to face.

01:12:40.460 You don't want it?

01:12:40.980 You're not fighting nobody.

01:12:41.840 And maybe he would also say, oh, they have their problems, too.

01:12:44.760 But maybe he would also say after a horrible decision where you'd have to be like, I don't know, I mean, you'd have to be on like a lot of psychiatry medicine, I guess.

01:12:59.520 You'd have to be taking a lot of hallucinogens to make a decision the way some of these judges make where you know the other guy won.

01:13:09.420 And maybe Dana White could come in or a czar could come in and say, hey, you were the judge?

01:13:14.760 Come to my office Monday morning.

01:13:17.300 We're going to watch this tape.

01:13:19.000 And if you don't have a damn good explanation of how you freaking scored this fight for the other guy, start looking for another job right away.

01:13:31.000 That's powerful.

01:13:32.240 And Dana would do something like that.

01:13:33.840 Because Dana right after the fight will say, I don't know if I agree with this.

01:13:36.580 I don't know if I agree with that.

01:13:37.680 And half the time people are ticked off at this guy, but he's running the show.

01:13:41.260 You know how many fans come up to me every day and they say, Teddy, thanks for telling the truth.

01:13:45.480 But your sport, those decisions, I can't watch it.

01:13:50.820 But that's what you're saying.

01:13:52.100 Teddy, what you're saying is the reason why.

01:13:54.100 I agree.

01:13:54.620 I don't know.

01:13:55.160 I'm not disagreeing with you.

01:13:56.320 But the way it's going right now, look how many fights he's putting, look how many exposures he's getting, look how much social media, look how many ultimate fighters like this stuff.

01:14:03.900 I mean, you look at boxing right now.

01:14:05.260 Who's the biggest pull right now?

01:14:07.080 You've got Canelo's pulling the Latino fights, okay?

01:14:09.900 Let's just say Canelo, golden boy side, right?

01:14:12.980 On the heavyweight side, who do you have?

01:14:15.080 Wilder, okay?

01:14:16.820 Fury, Joshua.

01:14:19.640 After the fight, you know, he wants to go befriend Ruiz.

01:14:22.240 I don't know if that's like the style of a heavyweight.

01:14:24.500 You know, I don't even know if the fans want to see that.

01:14:26.420 It's like you lost, man.

01:14:27.180 Don't go Ruiz.

01:14:28.560 Like, who is the pull today?

01:14:31.620 Who is the pull today where you're sitting there saying, like, right now?

01:14:34.880 You know what saves boxing?

01:14:36.300 You're right.

01:14:36.920 You're a thousand percent right.

01:14:38.480 But you know what saves it?

01:14:40.080 It's kind of like living in a place where it rains every freaking day, and you're just

01:14:44.320 about to freaking say, I can't take this no more.

01:14:47.540 I cannot take this rain anymore.

01:14:50.520 And then all of a sudden, boom, you have a sunny day.

01:14:54.840 Every once in a while, you've got the drill in Manila.

01:14:57.800 Every once in a while, you have a great fight.

01:15:01.920 You do.

01:15:02.600 Every once in a while, you have Durant and Leonard.

01:15:05.120 Every once in a while, and that's what saves it.

01:15:07.700 What's the last one?

01:15:09.600 Oh, we've had a few pretty good ones.

01:15:13.540 Give me a good one.

01:15:14.780 Like, like a Gotti versus, you know.

01:15:17.820 Oh, yeah.

01:15:18.260 Well, Gotti was always in great.

01:15:19.940 Gotti was.

01:15:20.520 Him and Mickey Ward.

01:15:21.060 That was like.

01:15:21.420 Oh, my gosh.

01:15:22.620 That's like a movie.

01:15:23.540 That doesn't even make any sense to me.

01:15:25.420 It was a movie.

01:15:26.000 Yeah.

01:15:26.200 It was sick, you know.

01:15:27.400 Oh, it's a great book.

01:15:28.100 You can watch that over and over and over again.

01:15:31.620 Fights like that makes me spend thousands.

01:15:35.260 That kind of fights.

01:15:36.260 Some of these fights right now, you're watching it for what?

01:15:39.120 What are you watching it for?

01:15:40.440 I don't know.

01:15:40.940 Again, I don't want to go off track here.

01:15:43.480 I'm just asking because I really value your opinion to see what you're thinking.

01:15:46.160 No, no, no.

01:15:46.540 But I'm with you.

01:15:47.260 But you do get them.

01:15:48.420 You do still get them.

01:15:49.000 When was the last one, though, Teddy?

01:15:50.240 No, you had one just not too long ago.

01:15:52.000 I'm just coming up short right now.

01:15:53.680 Okay.

01:15:53.900 It was just, I'm trying to remember which one it was.

01:15:59.020 I mean, I had a kid involved in a fight, better be of the light heavyweight.

01:16:03.900 He was the IBF champion against my kid, the WBC champion, Vozik, Ukrainian against a Russian

01:16:11.040 kid.

01:16:12.020 And tremendous fight.

01:16:13.720 We came up short.

01:16:14.560 But it was on ESPN.

01:16:17.800 Too many times you have A against B.

01:16:19.620 You're right.

01:16:20.580 It's like a farm system.

01:16:22.020 It's like they're just, the promoters are using the networks.

01:16:26.140 The networks, some of the executives, like, they're not the brightest guys in the world

01:16:29.800 sometimes.

01:16:30.540 Just because the executives don't automatically mean that they're geniuses.

01:16:34.360 But they have a product that sells.

01:16:35.860 And they stay there.

01:16:39.220 They've been put there and they're there, you know, certain places.

01:16:42.680 And so, you know, you got, but you got a lot of, a lot of times on television, on these

01:16:49.740 different networks, you got the A against the B, and the executives don't know what's

01:16:53.080 going on.

01:16:53.760 That the promoters are using them to build their stable.

01:16:57.140 A's against, where it's not competitive, they're just building their guys up.

01:17:00.460 But, on that fight, it was, we lost, but it was a tremendous fight.

01:17:06.400 And then before that, Spence, Spence and Porter, welterweights.

01:17:11.300 That was about, maybe a month ago.

01:17:13.420 That's not a little long ago.

01:17:15.020 That was two guys with wills and skills.

01:17:17.480 I'll tell you right now, Spence had the better skills.

01:17:20.120 But Porter, man, he had tremendous will.

01:17:23.720 And you know what?

01:17:24.600 He was winning the fight on my scorecard, going into the late rounds.

01:17:28.720 But then the other guy's skill, and he had some will, allowed him to come back.

01:17:35.580 And it was a really, it was really a tremendous fight.

01:17:38.120 So they're still there.

01:17:39.480 You think Don King was good for the game?

01:17:42.080 I want to give an honest answer, and it takes a second to think about it.

01:17:46.700 He robbed fighters.

01:17:51.000 Disrespected fighters, hurt fighters.

01:17:52.480 But he also, it's kind of like asking, if you made the Rocky movie, was Rocky good for boxing?

01:18:05.340 The Rocky movie was fictional.

01:18:08.100 It was, you know, it wasn't real.

01:18:09.540 But it brought a lot of fans to the game.

01:18:13.820 King brought a lot of fans to the game.

01:18:15.920 He put on extravagant events, marquee events, in way off places like Zaire, where it brought

01:18:25.820 attention to, where we're still talking about it today.

01:18:28.520 So I guess that's your answer.

01:18:30.400 He has helped.

01:18:31.700 Yeah.

01:18:32.120 I mean, you can't get around it.

01:18:33.200 But I qualified it by saying what I said first, because that's fair.

01:18:38.700 Who's the modern-day Don?

01:18:40.000 I mean, Don King.

01:18:40.820 Anybody today that's doing it at his level, the way he did it?

01:18:43.580 Well, I mean, Arum is a guy that's been around 60 years now.

01:18:48.620 And he's, you know, he got fortunate that he was about to go out of the game.

01:18:53.460 Quite frankly, HBO wasn't doing really anything with him anymore.

01:18:58.120 And then ESPN saved him.

01:19:00.760 And he's with ESPN now.

01:19:02.100 And, you know, he's definitely the biggest promoter in the game, probably.

01:19:06.160 And then you got guys like Eddie Hearn with the zone.

01:19:10.260 You know, you got him there.

01:19:11.780 One of Eddie Hearn's boxers is a trainer of mine, local guy here.

01:19:15.940 And he's part of the zone.

01:19:17.280 But at that level of a Don King today, at that level, like, you know, if you put Don and

01:19:23.680 Dana, forget about character and all that stuff, the way you describe Don.

01:19:27.060 You put Don and Dana, who's the better promoter?

01:19:29.080 Well, I mean, Dana hasn't had the longevity that King had, first of all.

01:19:33.800 Longevity has to be factored in there, right?

01:19:36.580 A little bit.

01:19:37.360 But Dana's putting some big events on in a short period of time.

01:19:43.760 He's catching up.

01:19:45.500 You think, I know you just spent some time with Masvidal, which, you know, his fight with Diaz.

01:19:50.280 Good person.

01:19:50.600 Yeah.

01:19:51.200 He comes across as a good person, like a character guy.

01:19:54.420 Do you think his request to want to fight Canelo, does he have a standing chance to go against a guy like that or no?

01:20:02.540 Probably not.

01:20:03.240 Probably not.

01:20:03.840 Okay.

01:20:04.200 I mean, we talk the truth, right?

01:20:05.940 Yeah, sure.

01:20:06.460 I like him.

01:20:07.140 And listen, that's why he's a guy that I can like.

01:20:10.780 Because he'll see me tomorrow and he'll say, Teddy, hey, I understand you're saying that.

01:20:15.800 He won't be one of these guys trying to play a game and trying to put a front on.

01:20:19.720 But listen, in his mind, if he believes that, then it's the truth for him.

01:20:25.340 It's the truth for him.

01:20:26.340 For me, you're asking me a question from where I sit.

01:20:29.900 And I think that, listen, should anybody be looked badly at for trying to do something titanic for their families, for themselves?

01:20:40.800 Something huge like Conor McGregor did with Mayweather.

01:20:45.160 He had no chance with Mayweather.

01:20:46.880 But he was able to sell it by saying that he could beat him.

01:20:51.560 And enough people believed it to make it something that was historic with the money they made.

01:20:59.800 You blame somebody for shooting for that?

01:21:02.860 No.

01:21:04.340 I don't.

01:21:05.080 It doesn't mean you have to believe that it's going to happen.

01:21:08.400 See, but you see, this goes back to it.

01:21:10.460 Like, think about it right now.

01:21:12.780 How many people wanted to see that fight with him and Nick, right?

01:21:16.320 Diaz.

01:21:17.240 But this is like a good fight, right?

01:21:19.060 This is a tremendous fight.

01:21:20.060 And now, Khabib, you know, he, you know, now Conor, Dana's saying there's no way Conor could fight a guy like Mazda because he's too big for him, right?

01:21:28.520 But there's excitement there.

01:21:30.420 It's like, oh, I want to see.

01:21:31.560 That Conor could fight Mazda, though?

01:21:33.080 No, no.

01:21:33.640 Dana's saying there's no way in the world that would not be a good matchup.

01:21:36.120 That they couldn't fight him, too.

01:21:37.040 No, because Jorge is way too big for Conor.

01:21:40.180 That's what Dana's saying.

01:21:40.980 You're talking about Canelo or Conor?

01:21:42.200 No, no, no.

01:21:42.700 Conor McGregor fighting Mazda.

01:21:44.760 Yeah.

01:21:45.100 That Mazda is too big for Conor because Conor wants to fight him.

01:21:48.220 But guys have moved up in weight.

01:21:49.640 I know they have.

01:21:50.500 But Dana's saying.

01:21:51.280 I get what you're saying.

01:21:51.940 Yeah, but what I'm saying is there's the excitement.

01:21:54.660 There's the excitement of that.

01:21:55.780 Do you remember when Michael Spinks moved up to heavyweight to fight Larry Holmes?

01:21:58.200 Yeah.

01:21:58.280 He went from 175 to 2, whatever, because Holmes was like, what, 220, 230, whatever, somewhere

01:22:05.780 in that neighborhood, maybe a little less.

01:22:07.460 And he moved up.

01:22:08.900 He worked at it the right way, went about it the right way, and he won.

01:22:13.260 But, you know, so I would say, listen, I give credit to Dana.

01:22:19.680 So you would want to see a Conor Mazda, though.

01:22:21.760 You would want to see that fight.

01:22:24.060 You would want to see Conor move up?

01:22:26.180 Listen, if it was something that could be intriguing to it, and I think Mazda has earned

01:22:33.340 the right to shoot for something like that, to be able to have a job, because there's certain

01:22:40.160 guys you're going to make more money with.

01:22:41.520 It's just the way it is.

01:22:43.740 It's just the way it is.

01:22:45.640 McGregor has that gift of gab here.

01:22:47.520 He's got that special promotional gene.

01:22:50.900 He's a great promoter.

01:22:53.000 Mayweather was a great promoter.

01:22:54.200 Nobody was greater than Ali.

01:22:55.740 And there were great wrestlers that Ali took from, Gorgeous George and all those guys.

01:23:01.180 Ali would tell you the truth.

01:23:02.860 I took from those guys, you know?

01:23:04.980 So they have a PhD in it.

01:23:07.920 And McGregor's got a PhD in that.

01:23:10.100 And Mazda just, he's recognizing that.

01:23:14.420 That, hey, listen, I could go bust my butt all day long, and I ain't never going to make

01:23:18.520 the money I can make with this guy that has a PhD in promotion.

01:23:22.080 Now, I'm not saying that it would be the greatest fight, but I'm saying that I would buy it,

01:23:29.160 because I believe in Mazda.

01:23:31.560 I believe, I think McGregor was good, too, at his level.

01:23:36.480 But I'm just saying, I believe that he's earned the right to venture into those places.

01:23:42.240 He's a boxing guy that's excited about UFC.

01:23:44.820 See, that's the part.

01:23:45.580 It's pulling even a guy like you to the UFC side.

01:23:48.080 In fact, last thing before we wrap up here.

01:23:50.020 Obviously, one of the reasons why we got connected.

01:23:51.900 I wish it was a different reason, but one of the reasons why we got connected is Sammy.

01:23:54.600 You're a gentleman.

01:23:55.360 So, you know.

01:23:56.640 You really are.

01:23:57.420 I sit with Sammy.

01:23:58.500 Sammy de Borgervano.

01:23:59.580 There's a chapter in your book about Sammy.

01:24:01.480 You know, I read it.

01:24:02.220 I mean, obviously, it's a very, very interesting chapter.

01:24:04.720 The relationship with you and the son, all this stuff.

01:24:07.300 When you saw Sammy's response, when I asked him the question of fear,

01:24:12.260 I'm sure people send it to you, say, hey, Teddy, watch what Sammy said about you.

01:24:15.400 Teddy Atlas said to me one day, are you afraid?

01:24:19.260 I said, no.

01:24:20.700 I didn't say I don't have fear.

01:24:23.480 I said, no.

01:24:24.620 Teddy Atlas is an asshole.

01:24:26.820 What was the first thing that came to your mind when you saw that?

01:24:30.900 Consistent.

01:24:32.560 He's the same guy.

01:24:35.260 You know.

01:24:36.620 He's not honest.

01:24:39.620 You know.

01:24:40.060 He, I think that, I think there's a combination of things.

01:24:44.980 I think one of them is that he's not relevant and he's trying to find a way to become relevant.

01:24:50.640 You know, he's trying to become, get attention, become important again,

01:24:55.300 and maybe use somebody to become important again.

01:24:59.660 I think that, I just think that it's consistent.

01:25:04.220 You know, that he could never, we talked about it earlier, that, you know, if you, if you deny something,

01:25:16.220 if you deny something that's in all of us, which is fear,

01:25:21.060 how can you have overcome it, if you deny it, if you won't face it, well, isn't that sort of the definition of being cowardly?

01:25:34.700 That you won't face something?

01:25:36.700 I mean, that if we don't use such a powerful word as cowardly, isn't that avoiding something that we, God doesn't let us avoid?

01:25:49.140 Nature, if people are uncomfortable with hearing me talk about God, all right, I'll respect that.

01:25:57.100 I'll call it nature.

01:25:58.880 Nature has put fear in all of us so we can be better, so we can overcome things.

01:26:04.580 If we don't understand that we have fear and we say we don't have it, well, like I've always said to fighters, to real fighters,

01:26:13.640 you're either a liar or you need to go to a doctor and find out what the frick is wrong with you because everyone has it.

01:26:23.140 You have it, why don't we walk across the street and look both ways?

01:26:26.940 We're not cowards, but we have fear.

01:26:31.400 We have fear because we might get hit by a car.

01:26:35.000 So we look because we don't want to get hit by a car.

01:26:38.100 Could that be being cautious?

01:26:40.000 It's fear.

01:26:41.100 You can call it caution, but it's an element of fear.

01:26:44.300 It's an element of being afraid of getting hit by a car.

01:26:46.940 Yeah, use the word caution, it's comfortable.

01:26:49.380 But if we're going to get down to the ditty gritty, it's fear.

01:26:54.100 It's fear that we could get killed.

01:26:56.940 We could get maimed.

01:26:58.280 We could get paralyzed.

01:26:59.520 I'm just saying that when you, I didn't listen to it.

01:27:03.540 I just heard what people told me, so I only have snippets of it.

01:27:06.900 But, you know, it's just consistent with a guy that's never going to be able to be truthful about,

01:27:17.340 because he always looked at it like it was a shortcoming.

01:27:24.080 Like in his world it would be a shortcoming.

01:27:26.900 Well, guess what?

01:27:27.900 You proved that you had a shortcoming by what you did.

01:27:31.040 So no matter what he says, you know that old saying, the horse is out of the barn?

01:27:36.860 Somebody should tell him the horse left the barn a long time ago.

01:27:40.620 We already know that he's afraid.

01:27:42.660 He's afraid, because why did he do what he did?

01:27:46.980 He did it because he was afraid.

01:27:50.380 He was afraid of facing what was coming.

01:27:52.540 I mean, somebody should remind him and say, hey Sam, listen, I know you don't like to listen too good, but pal, you've been exposed already.

01:28:03.900 You already proved that you're afraid.

01:28:05.600 I won't even use the word a coward.

01:28:07.320 I can use it, but I won't.

01:28:09.740 But you've already proved that.

01:28:11.620 Because if you weren't, you would have faced what was coming.

01:28:15.540 You would have said, come on.

01:28:17.460 But instead you found a way out.

01:28:20.040 When the fight comes, when the moment comes, fighters fight.

01:28:23.320 They don't find ways out.

01:28:28.180 You're not a fighter.

01:28:29.260 You shouldn't even use that word.

01:28:31.680 You shouldn't even use it.

01:28:32.400 You know what you are?

01:28:33.840 You're a freaking, you're one of those yuppies that orders Starbuck vanilla lattes on the app.

01:28:43.760 The only difference is you order in murders instead of lattes.

01:28:49.860 And because you didn't have the guts to do the murders yourself.

01:28:53.320 Although, it doesn't take much guts to shoot someone behind the head.

01:28:59.680 That's what you are.

01:29:01.540 Go get the Starbuck's app and order some freaking vanilla lattes.

01:29:06.280 Okay?

01:29:08.060 But don't bother me.

01:29:10.700 Then freak out of here.

01:29:13.500 I know what you are.

01:29:15.420 I know what you're not.

01:29:17.560 I know what you're not.

01:29:20.120 So stop the BS.

01:29:23.320 What else do you want to talk about?

01:29:25.860 You spent a year with him.

01:29:26.760 How was it when you spent a year with him?

01:29:28.160 I mean, you trained his son.

01:29:29.320 You guys were at the gym together.

01:29:30.620 You guys were, you know, he would come and ask you questions.

01:29:33.740 What was he like?

01:29:34.720 I mean, you wouldn't spend a year with him if you guys didn't get along.

01:29:37.400 We got along.

01:29:38.200 You guys said there was some kind of a relationship at some point there, right?

01:29:41.520 Yeah, I mean, he liked boxing, and he reached out to a relationship.

01:29:47.720 He was training in Gleason's gym in Brooklyn under the bridge.

01:29:51.000 I was training fighters there.

01:29:52.740 And he reached out to me because, you know, he was training with Edwin Verowett, who was a real fighter.

01:30:00.300 He was a guy who fought Duran, fought Duran, and 15 rounds he went with.

01:30:05.680 Yeah, yeah, he was a real fighter.

01:30:06.920 But also he was a guy who, you know, he didn't make money in boxing, real money, and he needed a way to make money.

01:30:13.740 So he would let Sammy pay him to let him hit him and not hit him back.

01:30:18.160 Look, is that going in and, oh, if I wasn't afraid, I wouldn't get in the ring.

01:30:24.420 Is that really getting in the ring?

01:30:28.700 Is it?

01:30:29.320 Oh, gee, really?

01:30:30.480 I know a lot of people that do it that way.

01:30:33.400 There'd be a lion out the door.

01:30:35.420 You could do it with a guarantee the guy won't hit you.

01:30:38.600 Oh, wow.

01:30:40.900 That's like saying, I'll go in the cage with a lion.

01:30:43.600 But make sure the lion's got no teeth and no claws.

01:30:48.160 I'm a lion.

01:30:51.420 Does that make me a lion fighter?

01:30:53.020 Or does it make me fight a lion that has no teeth and no claws and is not a lion anymore?

01:30:58.800 Because a lion, by the way, has teeth and claws and can kill you.

01:31:02.120 A fighter, by the way, can hurt you if he's allowed to hit you.

01:31:07.180 So, listen, yeah, I was in the gym with him.

01:31:12.020 So, he reached out to me one day, you know, asked me to train him instead of Edwin.

01:31:18.340 He said, I think you'd be a better trainer for me.

01:31:21.080 And I said, no.

01:31:23.080 And then one day Edwin was away with a fighter.

01:31:25.560 And he came to me and said, he's away.

01:31:27.580 Today would you do it?

01:31:28.760 I'll pay you.

01:31:29.540 I said, I ain't going to take no money.

01:31:31.700 I'll do you a favor.

01:31:32.640 I'll train you for the day.

01:31:33.620 One day.

01:31:34.500 And I did.

01:31:35.140 And then that grew into later on we worked out in a weightlifting gym together.

01:31:40.060 You know, for a year.

01:31:41.980 And that was, that's all true.

01:31:45.660 And I trained him for that one day.

01:31:47.080 And after that one day, you know, of course, he said, that's the style I should be learning.

01:31:50.720 And I'd like you to, I said, I told you for one day I'd do it.

01:31:54.740 You know, and then he offered me.

01:31:56.180 I mean, you won't go into it.

01:31:57.200 He offered me, he offered me, he said, me and my partner.

01:32:01.580 I knew who his partner was.

01:32:03.080 I mean, a guy named John Gotti.

01:32:06.240 We want to get into the boxing business.

01:32:08.560 We'll give you $75,000 seed money.

01:32:10.840 Those were his words.

01:32:12.560 And pay you, I think it was $2,000 a week.

01:32:14.960 And buy a building, put it in your name.

01:32:16.860 I was thinking to myself, I'm going to listen.

01:32:19.120 You know, that old silly saying, you know, I was born a knight but not last night.

01:32:22.380 You know, I mean, I'm not the smartest guy, but I'm not the stupidest, stupidest guy in the world.

01:32:28.400 You know, and, you know, I do care about other things other than just saying, oh, it'd be nice.

01:32:33.940 Because I didn't have a lot then.

01:32:35.180 I didn't have much at all, to be honest.

01:32:37.880 But I also, I also cared about how it would affect my family.

01:32:43.960 You know, see that, to me, that's part of being brave.

01:32:48.320 That's part of not being a coward.

01:32:50.160 That's part of showing something more than just saying you're a tough guy.

01:32:54.900 A tough guy cares about what's going to happen to his family.

01:32:57.320 My father cared.

01:32:59.140 A tough guy cares about the collateral damage you can do to people.

01:33:04.920 I knew that if I did that and I said, hey, I'll take a gamble.

01:33:08.520 What the freak?

01:33:09.580 I knew what that would do to my kids.

01:33:11.120 I even laughed to myself one time when he said, well, put the building in your name.

01:33:15.140 I said, did the indictments do?

01:33:17.120 I mean, you know, I mean, yeah.

01:33:20.020 I didn't say it out loud.

01:33:21.780 But the indictments would be in my name, I think, too.

01:33:24.680 Very clear.

01:33:25.880 Theodore A. Atlas.

01:33:27.940 Because when you're in court, they're not going to say Teddy.

01:33:31.540 So, you know, so he offered me all the, and I said no.

01:33:35.280 There was no BSing around it.

01:33:37.680 I took a meeting with him and all his wife's guy friends and, you know, will you do me a favor?

01:33:42.520 Will you just take a meeting and yes or no?

01:33:45.780 Yes or no?

01:33:46.900 This way they can hear it out of your mouth.

01:33:48.660 They all, you know, talking about we'll have this, we'll have this, we'll have this, we'll have this.

01:33:56.980 No.

01:33:58.740 No.

01:34:00.060 That was it.

01:34:02.260 So, yeah.

01:34:04.060 That's the story with you and Sammy.

01:34:05.860 Did you relate to any part of Sammy as his character or not at all?

01:34:09.360 That one you guys spent time together.

01:34:10.700 Was there any, like, a chip or anything to prove?

01:34:13.980 Like, did you see anything where Father Gotti, like, you and him, similar?

01:34:18.000 Did you see anything there or not at all?

01:34:19.580 No, listen, I saw a guy, I want to be careful.

01:34:24.100 I don't want to just say something for the sake of saying it or for vengeance or anything like that.

01:34:28.920 I want to say it for the truth.

01:34:37.540 I saw a guy that sometimes, that time went on, I wondered, it's kind of like seeing a fighter, like,

01:34:45.140 that can't face what you have to face ultimately in the ring.

01:34:48.000 Like, you become a state trooper.

01:34:53.820 You know, like we talked earlier.

01:34:55.600 Become something.

01:34:56.680 You know what I mean?

01:34:57.700 I kind of saw, like, a guy who, obviously his vocation was a gangster, right?

01:35:04.320 And when he starts saying, I ain't afraid of nothing, and, you know, and then starts asking you questions, like, you know, I'm not a, how do you help fighters?

01:35:23.540 How do you make them control themselves?

01:35:25.040 They said, you mean their fear?

01:35:26.180 Oh, I don't have fear.

01:35:27.120 They said, oh, all right.

01:35:29.820 It's like you just, it's just like you won a witness stand.

01:35:33.080 You just said, guilty.

01:35:34.220 I mean, that wasn't hard to figure out.

01:35:39.160 You don't have fear.

01:35:40.220 And, no.

01:35:41.040 I said, well, how do you talk?

01:35:42.680 I said, well, you got to control fears like fire.

01:35:45.060 Fire.

01:35:46.040 And then, like, let's use fire.

01:35:47.980 Like, you can't even, like, how is this guy going to be what you got to be when you get in the ring?

01:35:53.620 Eventually, you got to face the devil, right?

01:35:56.160 You got to face that moment.

01:35:57.260 You got to face that guy that's going to come to you in the ring and say, you ready to do this?

01:36:01.440 You've been hurt.

01:36:02.160 You ready to do this?

01:36:03.100 You ready to be a fighter?

01:36:04.940 Forget about being a fast guy.

01:36:06.680 Forget about being a power puncher.

01:36:08.120 Forget about shooting guys in the head.

01:36:09.780 Are you ready to be a fighter?

01:36:11.040 Are you ready to be a gangster?

01:36:12.980 Are you ready?

01:36:14.580 I kind of thought, hey, he ain't ready.

01:36:17.360 But that's his problem.

01:36:20.420 That's his thing.

01:36:22.460 Growing up in Staten Island, were you ever close?

01:36:25.440 Did you ever associate yourself with any of the gangsters?

01:36:28.380 Because I know, you know, Godfather was obviously shot there.

01:36:30.760 And some of these guys, Gianni Russo, some of those guys came from Staten Island.

01:36:34.940 Were you close to any of these guys or not at all?

01:36:37.140 Gianni Russo's an actor.

01:36:39.120 I know.

01:36:39.440 Please, let's be careful.

01:36:40.800 Oh, I didn't say he's a gangster.

01:36:42.500 But he's from, he was a guy that was an associate.

01:36:47.360 He was an idiot of Costello years ago.

01:36:49.080 An actor.

01:36:49.420 An actor.

01:36:49.580 And they got rid of him quick in The Godfather.

01:36:52.680 So I don't know about him.

01:36:54.860 I mean, to me, there was more significant people around than him.

01:36:58.340 But listen, there was, I think everyone knows that there was, I mean,

01:37:05.960 Costellano lived on top of Toad Hill with a house that he called the White House.

01:37:09.780 I mean, you know, there was a good amount of gangsters on Staten Island.

01:37:15.640 I mean, did I associate with them?

01:37:18.720 No, I wasn't hanging out and playing P-Knuckle with them.

01:37:22.200 But I guess, obviously, people know each other, you know.

01:37:26.100 And when you're in the boxing business and when you're from Staten Island,

01:37:29.180 people, you know, people gravitate towards boxing, if you haven't noticed.

01:37:33.400 I know you have, you know, they gravitate towards it.

01:37:36.900 They, you know, so there were guys I knew, but they gravitate towards it

01:37:40.440 because of kind of the same reason actors gravitate to it,

01:37:43.340 what we talked about earlier.

01:37:45.320 They think that, you know, wow, there's something to this facing things,

01:37:52.120 being a man, you know.

01:37:53.880 And it doesn't mean there is, unless you are.

01:37:57.460 Unless you are.

01:38:00.380 This has been a blast sitting down with you, man.

01:38:02.880 Truly, this has been a blast sitting down talking to you, man.

01:38:05.600 You're just a very real guy.

01:38:08.480 And the story, when you started off with your father,

01:38:10.600 I immediately connected with you because my dad,

01:38:14.460 I'll tell you a crazy story here.

01:38:16.840 So Middle Eastern fathers, there is no I love you, Teddy.

01:38:19.800 There is none of that.

01:38:21.200 It's just you're not working hard enough.

01:38:23.440 You've got to go do something with your life.

01:38:24.860 When are you going to get your act to get it?

01:38:26.080 It's a lot of that, right?

01:38:27.080 So I get out of the military.

01:38:29.280 And since I was a kid, man, I enjoy this guy's company.

01:38:32.680 He would leave 5 o'clock in the morning,

01:38:33.960 would come home at 9 o'clock.

01:38:35.080 So it was always a similar way of trying to get this guy's attention

01:38:38.840 to say, hey, what do you think about your son here?

01:38:41.600 So one day, I come out of the Army, and I'm working at Bally's.

01:38:45.260 The night before I go to his house, and I said, listen,

01:38:47.740 I've got to tell you something.

01:38:48.420 He says, what?

01:38:49.320 I said, you've got to tell me you love me.

01:38:51.540 He says, what are you talking about?

01:38:53.040 I said, tell me I love you.

01:38:55.520 He says, you have become an American.

01:38:57.940 What is this American stuff?

01:38:59.360 What is this weakness?

01:39:00.440 What is this weakness?

01:39:02.520 I said, tell me you love me.

01:39:05.040 I'm your son.

01:39:05.640 I said, we've got to hear it from you.

01:39:07.140 He says, I'm not going to tell you I love you.

01:39:09.300 You know I love you.

01:39:10.400 I said, Dad, I'm telling you right now.

01:39:11.540 I want to hear it.

01:39:12.620 He says, this is crazy.

01:39:14.740 This is crazy.

01:39:16.120 How did you become like this?

01:39:18.040 So I leave.

01:39:18.580 I go to work the next day.

01:39:20.020 My dad never calls my work ever.

01:39:21.760 I get a call.

01:39:23.100 Patrick, David, line one.

01:39:24.480 It's your father.

01:39:25.160 I'm like, my dad?

01:39:25.920 What the hell is he doing calling me?

01:39:27.640 So I pick up the phone.

01:39:28.520 I say, hey, what's up?

01:39:29.840 Yeah, yeah.

01:39:30.760 How you doing?

01:39:31.940 Good.

01:39:32.260 I'm at work.

01:39:33.320 Okay.

01:39:34.180 All right.

01:39:35.200 That's good.

01:39:36.160 You're working.

01:39:37.220 Okay.

01:39:37.820 I love you.

01:39:38.580 Click.

01:39:39.240 He hangs up.

01:39:40.460 Beautiful.

01:39:40.680 So then my sister calls me.

01:39:42.140 She says, hey, is dad's health okay?

01:39:43.880 I said, why?

01:39:44.200 So he just called me and said he loves me.

01:39:46.140 You know, and now today, you know, the guy, he can't help himself but tell, you know,

01:39:50.280 one of my luckiest moments is the fact that my kids are close to this guy.

01:39:54.200 You know, it's heaven on earth seeing those moments.

01:39:55.780 So I appreciate you opening up, man.

01:39:57.680 I truly wasn't expecting this interview to go to this direction, but I had a blast with

01:40:01.740 you the last 90 days.

01:40:02.580 I appreciate you.

01:40:02.860 Truly.

01:40:03.500 No, really, man.

01:40:04.140 I really enjoyed this.

01:40:05.420 Teddy, appreciate you so much for coming up.

01:40:06.940 Appreciate you.

01:40:07.440 Really enjoyed it.

01:40:08.160 Thank you.

01:40:08.600 Thanks, everybody, for listening.

01:40:09.820 And by the way, if you haven't already subscribed to Valuetainment on iTunes, please do so.

01:40:14.380 Give us a five-star.

01:40:15.880 Write a review if you haven't already.

01:40:17.360 And if you have any questions for me that you may have, you can always find me on Snapchat,

01:40:21.340 Instagram, Facebook, or YouTube.

01:40:23.300 Just search my name, Patrick Bid David.

01:40:25.080 And I actually do respond back when you snap me or send me a message on Instagram.

01:40:30.080 With that being said, have a great day today.

01:40:31.880 Take care, everybody.

01:40:32.580 Bye-bye.

Valuetainment - December 27, 2019

Episode 407： Teddy Atlas Opens Up About Tyson, Sammy Gravano & His Upbringing

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