Valuetainment - Episode 438： Shawn Ray Slams Phil Heath & Defends Mr Olympia

00:00:00.000 This is Patrick Bader, your host of Valuetainment, and today I'm sitting down with Sean Ray.

00:00:27.700 Sean Ray, the former bodybuilder, legendary bodybuilder, that was willing to open up and talk about a lot of different people, whether it's other former Mr. Olympia folks or even Chad Nichols.

00:00:39.300 It got very, very controversial, but it's probably the most insightful sit-down I've ever done to find out more about the current conditions of the Mr. Olympia brand.

00:00:48.600 The one and only Sean Ray. Sean, thanks for coming out, buddy.

00:00:50.820 It's interesting because the love and the hate, that didn't come until I think I was done bodybuilding.

00:00:55.280 I mean, when you move into the media side, you have a lot of people that have opinions.

00:01:01.380 I remember Muhammad Ali had a love-hate relationship with Howard Cosell, and I see what Stephen A. Smith is doing now as a talking head for all these other sports.

00:01:09.160 And moving into the interview side and the media side, these guys that I admired, I've now got to critique and criticize and had some threats from some bodybuilders because I was too harsh with my criticism.

00:01:20.100 But I'm known for telling it like it is. And, you know, I take the good with the bad. So loved and hated, I take it. What the heck?

00:01:25.860 I mean, if you're going to be at the top and you're going to be competing for a while in the business, you're going to piss some people off. It doesn't matter who you are.

00:01:33.200 Yeah.

00:01:33.400 But for you, you're slightly different because, you know, from looking at it from the outset to the bodybuilding world, okay, you see guys who, you know, they compete and they know how to play the physique.

00:01:47.460 They have genetics. They have a nice physique, but they don't know how to play the politics game, right?

00:01:51.360 So they'll go compete, but they'll never voice off or sound off to get some kind of change to take place.

00:01:58.380 95 percent.

00:01:59.680 95 percent of them, yeah. They're kind of quiet because they're afraid, what if the IFBB or what if Mr. Olympia brand does something to them?

00:02:05.480 Sure.

00:02:05.880 Then you've got the guys on the other side that are good politics, but they don't have a physique, right?

00:02:09.520 They understand the political game, but they don't have a physique. They're allowed.

00:02:13.000 You have the physique. You have the gift. You are an incredible bodybuilder in your world.

00:02:18.560 Even your enemies, when it comes down to talking about genetics and, you know, how you came in at 197 at first, professionally, and at the end, I think the heaviest you ever wore was like 218.

00:02:27.360 218, yeah.

00:02:27.800 And you go through that, but you also understood the political game. You saw some of the stuff that was going on behind closed doors.

00:02:33.780 And so today, I kind of, you know, on one end, I want to kind of get to know you to see what your story is, you know, because I try to find a lot of different stories about your past.

00:02:41.080 I know you're a high school, you know, Pasadena guy. You got some interesting stories on what you did.

00:02:44.900 But I want to go a little bit more into this guy in high school, Sean Ray. We're 14 years old. I'm your classmate.

00:02:52.220 This is pre-you break into a record for a 98-yard run that you went on, and it's in the books till today.

00:02:59.180 Yeah.

00:02:59.540 You had the ability to go play college, maybe the next level. You were 17 years old debating to be a bodybuilder.

00:03:05.200 I'm talking pre-that. 14 years old, who's Sean Ray?

00:03:07.400 I was a dreamer. I wanted to play professional football. And, you know, I had already had experience with karate.

00:03:14.660 I wrestled. I started playing football at the age of eight. I had come from a football background. All my brothers played football.

00:03:21.540 So I knew that going to Eldorado High School was my meal ticket out. I wanted to play in the NFL.

00:03:27.160 And I could tell you the names of the players, their salaries, their coaches on all the NFL teams as a teenager.

00:03:33.160 So going into high school, my brother Chuck was one year older than me. He was a phenom as a freshman, had all the high school rushing records.

00:03:40.980 But he was a fullback type runner. I was more of a Barry Sanders type runner.

00:03:44.380 So he set the bar for me going into Eldorado. And he's kind of a bully, a little bit bigger version than me, played in a punk rock band.

00:03:52.460 He would defend his friends in fights. I was not a fighter. Very spontaneous. He would surf, snow ski, and do all the things I wouldn't do.

00:04:00.860 When I got to Eldorado, I wanted to break his record. But I also was aware of the senior and the varsity records that were there.

00:04:07.720 So I went in there with an agenda. I wanted to become a professional football player. And I did everything I could do.

00:04:12.520 So my sophomore year, they asked me to play varsity. And two games in, I started. And from there, I just continued on.

00:04:20.600 I was a halfback. I was the punter. I was the kick returner, the punt returner, the defensive halfback, and the running back.

00:04:27.640 So by the time I was a senior, I was helping the quarterback call plays. But at the same time, I was lifting weights to get bigger, faster, and stronger, which was very effective.

00:04:37.240 Before I left high school, I'd already won the Orange Coast Championships. And I won the Teenage California my senior year.

00:04:45.900 And that's when I knew I was going to become a bodybuilder.

00:04:48.800 You knew you were going to be a bodybuilder then.

00:04:49.900 1984. It was April. I had gotten injured my senior year, stood on the sidelines, watched my varsity season disappear.

00:04:58.820 And I had to make the decision, play in the All-Star Game in June or do the Teenage National Championships in June.

00:05:04.800 I was 18 years old and I chose the Teenage National Championships. I went in and got second place.

00:05:09.580 I lost that competition to Franco Santorillo as a teenager. But Franco had won it the year before.

00:05:14.100 So he came back for a second national title.

00:05:16.660 So he was a little more experienced.

00:05:17.680 He was. And then by the time I was 19, I went back to the nationals, won that championship, wound up in Flex Magazine,

00:05:24.580 met Joe Weider and Ricky Wayne's son, Kevin Wayne's a photographer.

00:05:29.580 Rick Wayne saw a lot of myself, a lot of himself in me.

00:05:33.760 And I'm at the Joe Weider Studios at 19 years old.

00:05:36.100 By 20, I was a junior world champion on the cover of Flex Magazine in college.

00:05:41.680 Still no money, but I was living the dream.

00:05:44.360 I could drive to Woodland Hills and walk in and see the pictures and see what the future potentially would hold for me.

00:05:51.180 And at 21 years old, I was a national champion three years out of high school, a professional.

00:05:55.120 And Joe Weider signed me my first $1,000 a month contract.

00:05:59.140 $1,000 a month contract.

00:06:00.440 $700 apartment, $289 car payment.

00:06:03.480 I had to figure the rest out. It was sink or swim.

00:06:05.800 Now, let me ask you back then, it was more kind of like, look, we don't have money to give you,

00:06:08.740 but we'll put you on cover of magazines. We'll give you publicity. What was it?

00:06:11.940 I had nothing to compare this with.

00:06:14.300 Joe Weider said they had $1,000 a month.

00:06:16.920 And I thought that that might as well have been a million dollars a month for me.

00:06:19.720 I was in college.

00:06:21.740 But he was calling my house.

00:06:23.540 I was driving to his office.

00:06:25.080 We were having these conversations.

00:06:27.080 They saw something in me that I really still didn't get my arms around.

00:06:30.340 At the time, I won the Junior World Championships in Teenage America.

00:06:34.040 They were saying that I was the next big thing.

00:06:35.960 I hadn't bought into it yet.

00:06:37.480 Mind you, I was coming up at the same time Mike Tyson was.

00:06:40.260 And watching Mike fight and listening to how he was being indoctrinated into being the heavyweight champion of the world by Custom Auto,

00:06:47.460 I had my John Brown, who found me as a bodybuilder, telling me the same thing.

00:06:51.760 Now I've got Rick Wayne telling me the same thing.

00:06:54.000 What age did John start telling you?

00:06:55.640 17.

00:06:56.500 17 is when I joined a gym.

00:06:58.000 John won the Mr. Universe two times, Mr. World three times.

00:07:02.180 When he saw me, he thought I was already training for bodybuilding, but I was training for football.

00:07:05.840 Six months later, I was on stage.

00:07:07.800 Then I was his full-time training partner for a year.

00:07:10.600 By the time I won the Teen National Championships, John went back to Europe.

00:07:14.180 I continued doing it my way, and I wound up becoming Mr. California first in 87, national champion in 1987 in November.

00:07:22.660 When I got my contract, though, that validated the whole thing.

00:07:26.460 Because you've got to remember, I'm coming from football.

00:07:28.400 Yes.

00:07:28.680 In high school, I'm shaving my legs.

00:07:30.500 There's no hair.

00:07:31.280 I'm just doing what it looks to be normal.

00:07:34.160 I'm taking the bikini girls down. 1.00

00:07:35.840 I'm putting all the muscle men up.

00:07:38.180 I'm admiring and studying these books.

00:07:40.860 I mean, there's a lot of questions going around about what am I doing walking away from football.

00:07:45.280 But I knew that the way John was telling me that I could kind of live the life that he was living if I did the things he did, I believed it.

00:07:53.800 He was my customato, and he did tell me that at the time, I could beat guys like Rich Gaspari and Lee Labrada.

00:08:01.900 And the fact that Samir Benu was Mr. Olympia in 1983, Chris Dickerson in 82, they were my size.

00:08:08.060 That was the validation.

00:08:09.460 Beautiful physique.

00:08:09.900 They were telling me, you can beat those guys.

00:08:12.560 You're going to be that way.

00:08:13.540 And then, of course, by the time I was a senior in 84, Lee Haney won his first Mr. Olympia.

00:08:18.560 But it didn't deter me.

00:08:20.040 I mean, Lee Haney's 5'10", 240, 250.

00:08:23.140 I still had Tom Platz and Lee Labrada and these guys that were on the shorter end doing the business.

00:08:28.640 If I just kept doing the things I was doing, I would be on my way.

00:08:31.560 When I won the Nationals and got that contract from Joe, I was hooked and sunken in.

00:08:36.760 Let me ask you, say John Brown's not in your ears.

00:08:39.060 Are you still going to go the path you ended up going or no?

00:08:43.120 Probably not because without him telling me when he first saw me, I could beat Doyle Washington, who was a Mr. America teenager at the time.

00:08:51.400 And mind you, the other guy I saw was Victor Richards, which was on the other end of the spectrum in terms of size.

00:08:57.360 I had the right guys telling me the right things at the right time.

00:09:01.580 And then when I looked around, I didn't see guys like Arnold and guys like Lee Haney.

00:09:06.220 I saw guys like Labrada in 1985.

00:09:09.080 I saw Chris Dickerson at 42 years old, who I looked eyeball to eyeball with, and Samir Banu and Tom Platz.

00:09:14.740 They were the big names in bodybuilding.

00:09:17.240 And I fit right into that height-wise and weight-wise.

00:09:20.320 And so proportionately, I think I started to believe, John, as an artist, that posing and presentation is everything.

00:09:27.780 And you can beat some of these guys on how you show your physique.

00:09:30.880 You don't have to be as big.

00:09:32.460 And understanding that as an artist, coming from John, that indoctrination, that I could outperform them.

00:09:38.540 I could probably beat them.

00:09:40.060 Then I started getting Best Poser Award.

00:09:41.880 Then I started winning the overall awards.

00:09:43.900 And I didn't need John at that point.

00:09:45.500 By the time I was 21 years old and won the Nationals, I was on my own.

00:09:48.320 But it's so interesting when you're saying, like, if a guy like that wasn't in your ear, you may have been doing something else today, right?

00:09:55.960 I probably would have went back to football.

00:09:57.620 I was hurt.

00:09:58.380 The power of somebody being in your ear to say, Sean, I believe one day you can compete with these big guys and be able to hang with any of these guys that are up on the stage.

00:10:07.600 The power of that.

00:10:08.460 But it's so, when you look back and you talk to a lot of guys, and almost every one of them that goes and competes at a high level, somebody in their life said, I believe you can be X, Y, Z.

00:10:19.120 It's almost like somebody painted a picture of a, you didn't believe you can be that person, but they painted it and you said, you know what?

00:10:24.700 I'm going to go for this thing over here that somebody else sees.

00:10:26.520 You've got to remember, the guy that's telling me this, he's got, like, two Mercedes, he's flying all around the world, he's speaking German, he's making deals in Paris, he's a student of Serge Nubray, he's friends with a lot of the people that I see in the magazines.

00:10:40.760 We walk into World's Gym and he's over there talking to Bertolt Fox, you know, he's talking with Tom Platz, he's, you know, rubbing elbows with Mike Christian.

00:10:49.020 These are all the guys that are in the magazines that I want to be in one day.

00:10:52.220 I saw the finish line.

00:10:53.720 So, for me to see the finish line as a teenager made me a little bit more focused.

00:10:58.980 I didn't need to be at the after parties after the football games.

00:11:01.480 I didn't need to be running the streets.

00:11:02.820 I needed to be ready for that next workout that John was preparing me for.

00:11:06.080 So, you had an older brother.

00:11:07.400 Did everybody know it's kind of like when you went to high school, don't mess with Sean because his older brother's going to whoop your tail?

00:11:12.540 Was it like that kind of a culture or no?

00:11:14.260 No, it wasn't.

00:11:15.080 I mean, mind you, I come from a lily-white Orange County.

00:11:17.580 I mean, there was probably five black guys.

00:11:20.020 I was the only one in my graduating class, I believe, on the football team.

00:11:23.900 So, we were all athletes and nobody was picking on me or my family for that matter.

00:11:30.620 You guys had a reputation.

00:11:31.640 Was it like the Ray boys or Ray family?

00:11:33.420 We had an athletic reputation.

00:11:35.060 My brother Reggie was a three-time letterman in track and field, basketball and football.

00:11:39.900 My brother Chuck was like the strongest black kid, period.

00:11:42.420 He was like, and he had a very short fuse.

00:11:44.580 He was a fighter, got kicked off the football team.

00:11:47.520 He had a short fuse. 0.97

00:11:48.160 Yeah, he wouldn't take no crap from nobody. 0.94

00:11:50.700 But where we came from, there was no really, I didn't experience much racism coming up.

00:11:55.040 And I think my sports superseded all that.

00:11:57.680 I was good at athletics.

00:11:59.340 I didn't have time to get in trouble.

00:12:00.820 So, they didn't treat me any different and I didn't feel any different.

00:12:04.800 But I was always the leader.

00:12:05.960 I was the captain.

00:12:06.980 I was the MVP.

00:12:08.700 Even amongst the brothers or no?

00:12:10.140 Amongst brothers?

00:12:10.860 I was the youngest of eight.

00:12:11.740 We had a blended Brady Bunch family.

00:12:13.560 My dad had three kids when he met my mom.

00:12:15.280 My mom had two kids when she met my dad.

00:12:17.700 Then we had one, two, and three in a row.

00:12:20.520 Where are you on that?

00:12:21.380 I'm the last.

00:12:22.520 So, my brother's one year older.

00:12:23.760 My sister's two years older.

00:12:24.900 Last of the eight or last of the first?

00:12:26.420 Last of the eight.

00:12:26.920 Oh, last of the eight.

00:12:27.580 They had all those mistakes.

00:12:28.700 Seven times trying to get it right.

00:12:30.080 They got it right with you.

00:12:30.660 They said, all right, we got this when we're done.

00:12:32.460 Now, your parents' personality-wise, how are they?

00:12:35.140 I'm the son of a janitor.

00:12:37.420 And at the time, when I was in school, grade school, I think it was more for me of an embarrassment.

00:12:45.420 My dad would work those odd hours and when I'd get up for school and go to the store with my friends,

00:12:50.900 my dad would be in the parking lot asleep at the wheel because he's coming back from work and we're starting our day.

00:12:57.140 My dad, he wore these painter overalls when he did his janitorial stuff and it would always be dirty.

00:13:02.460 I always saw my dad, he's always dirty.

00:13:05.360 And I just kind of thought, man, dad, you're changing.

00:13:07.120 You're embarrassing me.

00:13:07.860 Go get in the bed.

00:13:09.600 And I would run for 150 yards, 200 yards and come home and I'd be washing windows the same night.

00:13:16.160 When I got into high school, it was tough because my friends would be going to the beach on Saturday.

00:13:20.680 I'm going to wash windows, clean toilets.

00:13:23.560 And then it taught me something that I got to be better than that.

00:13:27.920 I want to be better than my dad.

00:13:29.640 And naturally through watching my dad struggle through those years of, I don't think it was a struggle for him because he worked till he died.

00:13:37.500 He died in 2010.

00:13:38.400 For me, I wanted something better.

00:13:43.500 And I think my drive came from the fear of cleaning toilets and washing windows.

00:13:48.620 It wasn't beneath me.

00:13:49.540 And the people that do it, I have a total affinity for.

00:13:52.880 I see them all the time in the places I travel in, going through the airports.

00:13:56.580 You know, I make sure I recognize those people because that was my dad.

00:14:00.180 And now that my dad's gone, it's even more that I'm aware of that.

00:14:03.560 We walk into a nice building.

00:14:05.220 First thing my dad's looking at is the floors and the windows.

00:14:07.680 And he's pointing out all the stuff that people just walk by and just gloss over.

00:14:11.860 But it felt very redeeming for me to move out of the house, to get my first car, which was a Corvette, to be able to buy my dad lunches and dinners, and to be able to not have to work for my dad.

00:14:24.920 And there did come a time where we bumped heads and I was like, I'm not doing it no more.

00:14:27.920 I'm not, I can't, I'm not.

00:14:29.040 I got to sleep.

00:14:29.720 I got to train.

00:14:30.240 And when I was coming up in high school, eat, sleeping, and training, he looked at that as a hobby.

00:14:35.860 By the time I started getting paid for it, I had to remind him it was a career and we had some friction.

00:14:40.500 What age was that when you had friction?

00:14:41.680 Probably about 22.

00:14:42.940 I just, I started feeling my manhood and I was on the verge of buying a house and I had to stand up and say, look, you got to find some employees.

00:14:50.840 I'm not doing it.

00:14:51.580 But everyone in my neighborhood worked for my dad.

00:14:53.340 All the family worked for my dad.

00:14:54.840 Now I'm at a point where I'm making my own money.

00:14:57.020 I don't have to work for my dad.

00:14:58.140 And I don't need my dad to tell me what to do.

00:15:00.800 So I did go through this phase like, look, man, I'm self-made now.

00:15:04.000 This is me.

00:15:04.720 This was not from you.

00:15:06.960 How long did that last, the friction?

00:15:08.580 Probably when I bought my house.

00:15:10.920 Ultimately, I bought my house in 91 and my dad was there from the beginning to the end to help me through that process.

00:15:16.900 Because that's a major step.

00:15:18.460 I think I was 22, 23 years old.

00:15:21.220 And it felt good to see my dad pull up in the driveway, you know, and knock on the door and see that this sweat equity that I put in the gym, this did this.

00:15:32.560 You know, and I never looked down on my dad.

00:15:35.280 My dad did his janitorial work until he died.

00:15:39.020 If anything, I tried to lift my dad up in a lot of ways that I couldn't.

00:15:42.800 He wouldn't take any money from me.

00:15:44.100 So I made sure he ate.

00:15:44.580 He wouldn't take any money from you.

00:15:45.320 I made sure he ate at the nice steakhouses.

00:15:47.160 I made sure that.

00:15:48.240 So a proud man.

00:15:49.080 Very proud.

00:15:49.720 Because I would hear it from other people.

00:15:51.240 Oh, I saw your dad and he was saying this.

00:15:52.980 I hear about my life story from people that my dad was talking to.

00:15:56.820 So it was for me, becoming a professional bodybuilder was something to make my dad proud.

00:16:01.560 But it was also something that I was fearful of becoming a janitor.

00:16:04.640 Was he also?

00:16:05.420 He was asking.

00:16:06.340 Yeah.

00:16:06.540 He was also.

00:16:07.160 Everybody thought my dad was like a bodybuilder.

00:16:09.600 But that's where you got to give credit to genetics.

00:16:11.880 My mom, just the opposite.

00:16:13.640 CPA, engineer.

00:16:15.720 We always said, how did your dad wind up having these kids?

00:16:18.600 You know, he's totally the opposite.

00:16:21.200 But they, you know, 18 years of marriage.

00:16:22.840 They got divorced when I was 17 years old and I was pretty much on my way as a bodybuilder

00:16:26.720 at the time.

00:16:27.980 And always when, after that, after the divorce happened, my mom got remarried.

00:16:32.700 We were always a family unit around the holidays.

00:16:34.400 So I came from a very stable family with both the work ethic of a blue collar toilet cleaner 0.85

00:16:39.940 and the mind of an accountant, which was my mom's CPA.

00:16:42.460 That's powerful.

00:16:43.140 That's a very good combination, right?

00:16:45.640 Because you're getting the hard work and you know, like, you can use the hard work to advance,

00:16:50.220 but also you can use your brains, put them together.

00:16:52.080 You know, you are who you are.

00:16:53.500 Absolutely.

00:16:53.780 And by the way, you know, I was talking to Ron from Muscular Development and we were doing,

00:16:57.760 I was a guest on his podcast yesterday and he says, in my experience, there are two types

00:17:02.280 of people that end up doing well in bodybuilding.

00:17:05.000 One is the kid that grew up and he was bullied.

00:17:08.600 And this person has a point to prove so they go into bodybuilding.

00:17:11.620 He says, they don't typically win, but they do go into bodybuilding.

00:17:15.360 He said, the other one is somebody that was an athlete and they were already an athlete.

00:17:19.460 They were playing sports and then they went into bodybuilding, similar to you.

00:17:24.080 Well, it's one of those things where you find out what you want to do at a younger age,

00:17:27.880 you typically can get there faster.

00:17:29.780 Mike Tyson wanted to be a heavyweight champion of the world at 15, 16 years old.

00:17:32.780 He got there when he was 20.

00:17:33.440 So your edges finally got sooner.

00:17:35.140 Yeah.

00:17:35.660 I mean, I knew what I wanted.

00:17:36.980 As soon as I made up my mind at 17 that that's what I wanted to do, nothing came into

00:17:40.600 my life that was going to dissuade that.

00:17:43.280 And the immediate success I was having, like I had with football, was validation that I

00:17:47.700 was on the right path.

00:17:48.900 Now, mind you, I'm a unicorn.

00:17:50.100 There's John Brown who made his bones over in Europe and not a lot of people knew who he

00:17:54.640 was.

00:17:55.660 And then there was me.

00:17:56.540 I didn't have anybody to look to to compare notes with.

00:17:59.880 I had to make the pilgrimage to Gold's Gym and read the magazines and be pretty much self-taught.

00:18:06.020 John knew how to train.

00:18:06.940 How did John find you, by the way?

00:18:08.100 I walked into his gym that he was training at and he thought I was training for a show.

00:18:13.280 Next thing you know, I became his training partner.

00:18:14.940 I should say punching bag.

00:18:16.400 I probably threw up and quit more with John the first six months of working out than at

00:18:21.700 any given time.

00:18:22.820 But my ability not to want to be a quitter continued to bring me back, made me a better athlete.

00:18:28.860 Were you, were you, I watch you in interviews and I watch how you talk and I watch, you know,

00:18:33.740 whether it's, you know, calling certain bodies and what they look like.

00:18:37.200 I'm going to tell you what you look like.

00:18:38.440 You, you, you don't look that good.

00:18:39.500 You can't compete her.

00:18:40.220 So you kind of are, you know, you are the way you are.

00:18:42.920 And I also see you in press conferences that you guys are doing, Mr. Olympia, and you're

00:18:46.780 kind of sharing your opinion about the judge and you're going back and forth with the

00:18:49.680 lady.

00:18:50.100 And, you know, she's, she's the new judge.

00:18:52.160 Well, the seven, all this stuff.

00:18:53.400 So we'll go through that here in a minute.

00:18:54.820 But were you always a guy that didn't, and maybe you can correct me here, didn't necessarily

00:19:02.320 just bow down to authority?

00:19:05.260 Were you always like that?

00:19:06.580 Was that a part of your DNA or did you become that?

00:19:09.160 You got to remember, I mean, I chose bodybuilding.

00:19:11.780 It didn't choose me.

00:19:12.740 Like I didn't just stumble into it.

00:19:14.820 I, I, what you saw is what I made.

00:19:16.600 You hear a lot of athletes say, I got my trainer and I got my girlfriend and I got these

00:19:20.200 people.

00:19:20.460 Well, John Brown introduced me to bodybuilding, I became the bodybuilder.

00:19:23.580 So whatever success I got, it's mine.

00:19:26.480 Whatever failures I've had, I own it.

00:19:29.060 We all get introduced to something, but we don't necessarily get mentored through all the

00:19:33.400 process.

00:19:33.980 Nobody was walking through the contracts.

00:19:35.600 I didn't, I had to come up with my own valuation on what I would charge for guest posing, what

00:19:39.920 I would charge for an appearance, a seminar, where I'm going to determine where I'm going

00:19:43.720 to fly, what hotel I'm going to stay in.

00:19:45.620 These are things you don't get taught, you know?

00:19:47.520 I mean, now you have trainers that are trying to help you out with that kind of stuff.

00:19:50.460 At the time I came up, um, I chose to be a bodybuilder.

00:19:54.380 I put my art up there.

00:19:55.620 I consider it an artistry and I let the judges judge it.

00:19:59.180 When the contest is over, you know, I, I'm my own person.

00:20:02.120 There was no one going to tell me what to do, how to eat, how to train or what political

00:20:06.960 game I needed to play.

00:20:08.100 And I had the favor of Joe Weider.

00:20:10.500 Joe Weider actually liked the idea that I was vocal, independent and self-made.

00:20:15.220 And he made sure that I stayed true to that.

00:20:17.360 Don't let anyone take that away.

00:20:18.500 So my biggest adversary, like Muhammad had Howard Cosell. 1.00

00:20:22.260 Yep.

00:20:22.600 I had Wayne D'Amelia, who happened to be the president of the IFBB at the time.

00:20:27.080 I could push Wayne's buttons at any given moment because he can't, I don't have a contract

00:20:31.560 with Wayne.

00:20:32.480 I had a contract with Joe Weider.

00:20:34.300 It doesn't get any higher than that.

00:20:35.740 Joe's name is on my checks.

00:20:37.860 That's the guy that I need to make sure I have the relationship with.

00:20:40.620 And I always had one with Joe.

00:20:42.360 Wayne, I didn't.

00:20:43.160 And I was very contentious with Wayne because my argument wasn't for Sean Ray.

00:20:47.200 When you saw me in the magazines complaining, and a lot of them said I was bitching.

00:20:51.360 A lot of the bodybuilding, oh, Sean's got something to say.

00:20:54.280 You're not hearing me talk about me.

00:20:55.880 I'm talking about fairness for salaries.

00:20:58.320 I'm talking about the rotation of judges.

00:21:00.680 I'm talking about the equity of athletes being paid on stage.

00:21:03.760 My argument and my fight was always for the betterment of the sport, which Joe could

00:21:08.280 appreciate, which is why I never got a reduction in salary.

00:21:13.900 I never got suspended.

00:21:14.880 I had a 17-year deal with Joe.

00:21:17.220 His brother, Ben, liked the idea that I was verbal and vocal.

00:21:21.500 So they liked it.

00:21:22.120 Why did they like it?

00:21:23.020 What part of it did they like?

00:21:23.840 They liked the idea that I was a good-looking black guy.

00:21:27.100 They reminded me that I was black, Joe and Ben.

00:21:29.400 First of all, let me ask you this.

00:21:30.220 Who pays Wayne's salary?

00:21:31.460 It was coming from the Weeders. 0.96

00:21:34.100 He worked for Joe Weeder.

00:21:35.600 So let me get this straight.

00:21:36.480 So Wayne works for Joe, but Joe likes the fact that you're calling out Wayne in public.

00:21:44.200 Everybody was under Joe.

00:21:45.460 Now, mind you, Ben ran the IFBB, and they hired Wayne to do all of the pro-bodybuilding division.

00:21:52.720 But yeah, they definitely didn't have a problem with me confronting Wayne on issues and speaking

00:21:56.600 my mind.

00:21:57.000 They encouraged it.

00:21:57.720 Stand up for yourself.

00:21:58.600 And knowing I can have that power, I could go up to Wayne.

00:22:01.920 If I'm in the right place, I can say whatever I wanted to Wayne, unfiltered.

00:22:07.200 And he had to respect it.

00:22:08.440 I called him out in public.

00:22:10.800 And changing the judges, having transparency with scoring, that stuff wasn't off limits.

00:22:15.940 But it was stuff that needed to be talked about in public.

00:22:18.620 What is a press conference for, if not a place for change?

00:22:22.240 This is where the change needs to be initiated.

00:22:24.440 And so my press, I took the press conference to another level. 0.99

00:22:28.420 Most bodybuilders are brain dead. 0.98

00:22:30.060 Nothing to say. 0.99

00:22:30.680 Let's just get on with the show.

00:22:32.120 But if we're going to have a change, this is where this conversation needs to take place.

00:22:36.060 So Wayne wasn't a guy that would call you up and say, what do you think we can do to

00:22:38.960 make it better for you athletes?

00:22:41.200 He would wait till the press conference.

00:22:43.040 And none of the athletes would have anything to say.

00:22:45.260 So for me, this is where we light the fuse.

00:22:47.840 So you know they say an enemy of an enemy is a friend, and a friend of an enemy is an

00:22:52.560 enemy.

00:22:53.220 So who liked Wayne out of all your competitors?

00:22:56.960 Who had a good relationship with Wayne?

00:22:59.180 Maybe Paul Dillette.

00:23:00.760 Maybe, I mean, it's a very small list of people.

00:23:04.480 How about the guy, like, did Ronnie have a good relationship with Wayne?

00:23:07.180 I don't think Ronnie had a relationship with Wayne.

00:23:09.440 Wayne was more of a dictator.

00:23:10.860 Okay.

00:23:11.260 His way or the highway.

00:23:12.460 He didn't ask you what we're going to do.

00:23:13.940 He told you what we're going to do.

00:23:15.100 And if I didn't like what he was saying, I'd call him on it.

00:23:17.980 Because at the end of the day, he has to answer to Joe and Ben.

00:23:20.300 And those were the people I was dealing with.

00:23:21.920 Now, Wayne doesn't own any of the brand.

00:23:23.660 No.

00:23:24.020 He's just an employee.

00:23:25.180 He was an employee.

00:23:25.900 He worked out of the New York office and liked to dictate.

00:23:29.700 You know, he was a power tripper.

00:23:31.240 And I knew that.

00:23:32.040 I was on the West Coast.

00:23:32.780 I could drive to Joe's office and talk to Joe specifically to get things done, which is why

00:23:38.180 Joe admired me.

00:23:39.180 Because I never left.

00:23:42.300 I didn't get my check and disappear.

00:23:45.140 I made sure that he knew who he was giving his money to.

00:23:47.800 You never had issues with Joe.

00:23:49.060 Ever.

00:23:49.440 None.

00:23:49.760 Never.

00:23:50.080 And you never called him out.

00:23:51.020 You never had any consultation.

00:23:52.680 No.

00:23:53.240 Because Joe, you're not going to find anybody.

00:23:55.320 Well, you might find Frank Zane.

00:23:56.780 You might find Robbie Robinson.

00:23:58.080 There's a few guys that feel that Joe took advantage of him.

00:24:00.740 But Joe gave you opportunity.

00:24:02.780 And if you weren't smart enough and savvy enough to see where you fit in, then you can

00:24:09.120 consider it in hindsight that he's taking advantage of you.

00:24:11.620 But look, nobody knows who you are without Joe Weider.

00:24:14.900 You're in Joe's magazine.

00:24:16.220 He's giving you a platform.

00:24:17.180 So you've got to determine your valuation on what you're worth.

00:24:20.780 If you're getting these protein ads and you're on the cover of the magazine and in hindsight

00:24:24.920 you felt you should have been paid, you should have put it in writing.

00:24:28.140 So today, who is Wayne today and who is Joe today?

00:24:32.240 So I would have to say that there is no Joe Weider.

00:24:35.960 There's no replacing Joe.

00:24:37.260 I mean, AMI is running the machine.

00:24:40.820 The pro league, Jim Mannion, is the godfather of the industry.

00:24:44.020 He was there under the tutelage of Joe and Ben.

00:24:46.120 And everyone has immense respect for Jim Mannion.

00:24:51.000 Everyone does.

00:24:51.780 Jim Mannion runs a very tight ship.

00:24:55.260 They've literally, the NPC worldwide started two years ago.

00:24:59.040 They have over 200 countries involved already.

00:25:04.500 I think he's picked up the ball and ran with it because clearly there's no replacing Joe and

00:25:09.260 there's no replacing Ben.

00:25:11.040 I know that people that are running the industry now, people like Dan Solomon, people like

00:25:15.960 Angelica that's underneath him helping out. 0.78

00:25:18.620 Tamriel Gundy coming on strong with muscle contests.

00:25:21.220 I'm looking at some of these people that I grew up with that are now being elevated that

00:25:26.200 have the pedigree to keep the machine going.

00:25:29.320 Some of the older guys are passing the torch.

00:25:31.780 Wayne D'Amelia is out.

00:25:32.640 Joe and Ben are gone.

00:25:34.000 Jim Mannion has brought his grandson Tyler up into the mix.

00:25:37.240 We are in a very good place right now.

00:25:38.900 I think we're in a better place right now than we were under the leadership of Wayne D'Amelia.

00:25:44.260 And Wayne D'Amelia was, he helped found the whole thing back with Ben and Joe.

00:25:48.840 But there's a different type of distribution of power.

00:25:51.420 There's nobody power tripping.

00:25:52.680 As a matter of fact, there's more opportunity now to make a living out of the Olympia brand

00:25:57.580 than at any other time in bodybuilding.

00:25:59.140 So I've heard a few people say, oh, you know, they're not doing this for me or that for me.

00:26:04.760 They never did.

00:26:06.020 This is a business like boxing.

00:26:07.600 You get from it what you put into it.

00:26:09.660 There's no contracts like there were before.

00:26:12.000 Joe Weider used to have 15, 30 athletes under contract, and we all were kind of told what

00:26:16.840 to do and when to do it.

00:26:18.220 Now you have this individual opportunity of using the platform that if you can get to

00:26:22.140 the Olympia, you get this platform where you have the worldwide recognition.

00:26:26.440 You have your own social media that you can control your own brand.

00:26:30.340 If you do well, you're at the top of the food chain, you can command more money.

00:26:33.720 If you have the ability to negotiate, ability to market, ability to travel.

00:26:39.960 Some of these guys are at the top of the food chain and they're not even leveraging half

00:26:44.160 of their opportunities.

00:26:45.620 Most of these bodybuilders aren't even guest posing anymore.

00:26:48.660 I remember when Lee Haney won the Olympia, Samir won the Olympia.

00:26:52.660 You can go to any show in the country and find somebody guest posing somewhere.

00:26:57.220 The majority of these top athletes don't guest pose because they don't get in shape.

00:26:59.720 They don't want to stay in shape in the off season.

00:27:02.920 I believe right now Phil Heath has seven Mr. Olympia championships.

00:27:06.300 I know he had some surgery that he overcame, but I don't believe on any level right now he'll

00:27:12.480 be on a guest posing stage.

00:27:14.780 A Mr. Olympia typically can get between $5,000 and $10,000.

00:27:17.500 I believe Phil at his peak was probably getting $15,000 in certain countries.

00:27:22.580 I don't know any bodybuilder from the 90s or even the 80s that would turn their nose up

00:27:27.080 at a $5,000 guest posing fee.

00:27:29.540 You're talking two minutes on stage to show the world an 80% physique.

00:27:34.560 And you're saying that's what's happening today?

00:27:36.020 What's happening today, these bodybuilders don't want to pose because with social media,

00:27:39.100 you're posing fat and out of shape.

00:27:40.700 It can ruin your brand.

00:27:42.300 Some athletes feel like, you know what, I don't need to pose.

00:27:45.360 I'm making more money over here and there.

00:27:48.280 And they don't do it.

00:27:49.440 Kai Green, for example, he hasn't competed in three, maybe four years.

00:27:52.880 He's a guy that's out there making good use of his time and his physique.

00:27:57.320 He doesn't have to compete, but yet he still guest poses here and there.

00:28:01.200 Brandon Curry, he's doing a very good job as Mr. Olympia, representing.

00:28:05.700 I haven't seen Sean Roden.

00:28:07.160 I haven't seen Phil Heath in probably two years guest posing.

00:28:10.240 That would never happen when I was coming up.

00:28:13.300 Even Dorian Yates at 300-plus pounds would guest pose, and people could see, this is Mr. Olympia.

00:28:18.980 Dorian Yates was guest posing?

00:28:20.060 Yeah, Dorian Yates, when he was Mr. Olympia, you could go and see Dorian Yates pretty much.

00:28:24.480 Wasn't he known as a guy that you couldn't see his body until he would show up in September?

00:28:29.900 You kind of like, you know, it was a surprise.

00:28:31.620 FIBO would take place in April in Germany, and every year he'd be there, one of the biggest guys.

00:28:37.000 He wouldn't do so much here in the States.

00:28:39.280 He had an outlet over in New York.

00:28:40.740 He's good friends with Bev and Steve Weinberger.

00:28:43.220 But yeah, you can see Dorian Yates during his reign as Mr. Olympia guest posing.

00:28:46.620 You don't see it today.

00:28:47.420 So let me ask you this.

00:28:48.240 Are you now, what is your role now with Mr. Olympia?

00:28:51.080 So I don't really have a role.

00:28:52.900 You've got to remember, my first Olympia was 1988.

00:28:55.480 I have never missed that contest, whether as a competitor, a sponsor, a commentator, or even a fan.

00:29:01.660 So it's 32 years of Olympia.

00:29:03.960 I've watched it grow to what it is today.

00:29:07.520 Last year I was commentating.

00:29:08.960 I do the World Wide Web broadcast, which puts me in a very unique place.

00:29:13.040 Obviously with 14 years of experience of the Olympia and 32 years of not missing it, I pretty much know what I'm looking at.

00:29:19.480 I know who's come up the ranks.

00:29:20.900 I see guys' careers come up and retire.

00:29:23.860 And I'm an analyst.

00:29:25.300 I host the Arnold Classic Amateur Competitions.

00:29:28.060 I'm an emcee all around the world for the NPC and the IFBB Pro League.

00:29:32.880 The Olympia I continue to promote.

00:29:34.980 I'm a missionary for bodybuilding, just like Ben Weider said he was.

00:29:40.460 I'm an analyst.

00:29:41.860 So either I'm bringing sponsors to the show, I'm hosting events.

00:29:46.340 Last year I hosted the reunion of past Ms. Olympia champions because now the Ms. Olympia is coming back.

00:29:52.100 Very quietly, I might add.

00:29:53.600 It's coming back and people need to pay attention to that because it's been gone for about five or six years.

00:29:57.960 So we had a reunion through Wings of Strength and Jake Wood and I hosted that.

00:30:01.800 And we brought in Kiki Ioma and all these other women bodybuilders that we interviewed on the stage. 0.70

00:30:06.920 This year I'll obviously be doing the color commentating.

00:30:09.680 And we break down all the athletes.

00:30:11.060 But what I'm asking is, is Mr. Olympia at all paying you for anything?

00:30:16.020 Are you a consultant of Mr. Olympia?

00:30:18.060 I get paid for my work that I do for the Olympia.

00:30:20.860 And I promote the Mr. Olympia through my social media.

00:30:24.500 I got it.

00:30:25.360 I'm the editor-in-chief of Digital Muscle, so I promote the IFBB Pro League and the Olympia through that.

00:30:30.080 So for full disclosure, based on what you're saying, this is what I'm interpreting.

00:30:33.640 And call me out if it's off and tell me if this makes sense or not.

00:30:37.740 So the Sean Ray of 94, okay, the Sean Ray of 96, 99, whatever those years are.

00:30:47.520 94, 96, you know what 94, 96 is for everybody knows what those two years are.

00:30:51.040 Yeah.

00:30:51.380 You know, with the left bicep.

00:30:52.920 I mean, Sean could be a two-time, he could be a four-time, right?

00:30:55.480 I mean, if you really, and a lot of people would agree with that, including your haters.

00:30:59.100 They would also agree with that.

00:31:00.280 He could be a two-time, he could be a four-time.

00:31:02.620 Sure.

00:31:03.180 But you were very much of a vocal guy of how you felt the judging was and all that was going on.

00:31:11.460 Sure.

00:31:11.920 And you were almost pushing a little bit of the brand of what things they need to do for the politics side.

00:31:16.420 Absolutely.

00:31:17.000 You sound like you're more defending it today.

00:31:19.600 No, I'm not defending it.

00:31:20.920 When's the last Olympia you went to?

00:31:22.400 The last I went to, I don't know, nine years ago, 10 years ago.

00:31:26.240 So I haven't missed any of them.

00:31:27.800 So I've witnessed it.

00:31:28.520 But I think Sean Ray, the competitor, was fighting for equal rights for everyone.

00:31:34.860 I was like the Martin Luther King of bodybuilding at that time.

00:31:37.680 I wanted more pay, more judging, transparency.

00:31:41.240 I wanted the order of events changed.

00:31:43.900 When I was doing it, we walked out of the symmetry round and stood there.

00:31:46.820 Me standing next to Dorian, Paul Dillette, and Kevin Levroni, I looked like a wallflower because I'm the smallest of the bunch.

00:31:52.360 This is the first look the judges would get.

00:31:53.940 And I switched that around to the first thing that the judges would see, and the fans, is one bodybuilder, one at a time.

00:32:01.660 We walk out.

00:32:02.720 We hit our eight mandatory poses.

00:32:04.680 Boom.

00:32:05.120 Next guy comes on.

00:32:06.360 So that the first thing that they saw was us at our best.

00:32:09.160 We're pumping up backstage.

00:32:10.700 We come out.

00:32:11.620 We flex instead of stand there for 45 minutes and deflate.

00:32:15.220 So we hit the eight mandatories, one at a time, and then bring us back, and you can make your comparisons based on what you saw.

00:32:22.600 Because I come alive when I pose.

00:32:24.180 But for many years, I came out and I stood there.

00:32:26.800 So I argued for that.

00:32:27.760 You're flat.

00:32:27.840 You don't have the full.

00:32:28.720 I'm pumping up backstage.

00:32:30.140 That's right.

00:32:30.520 This is the biggest day of my life.

00:32:31.460 I'm going to go stand there for 45 minutes before you ask me to pose.

00:32:33.840 When did they change that, by the way?

00:32:34.960 We had that change, I believe it was like 97 or 98.

00:32:38.700 It took a while.

00:32:40.160 But I lobbied for that.

00:32:41.880 Then when I retired, I wanted to be the athlete's rep because I still was very passionate about some things that weren't being done properly.

00:32:47.680 The transparency, the money distribution, and the judging situation.

00:32:53.480 And so I ran for athlete's rep.

00:32:55.400 And naturally, Wayne D'Amelio was the acting president.

00:32:57.920 They didn't want an athlete representative in there. 0.99

00:33:00.320 He made me go and get the majority of signatures from the registered athletes, which I got.

00:33:05.380 Craig Titus said I forged his signature.

00:33:07.600 Later on, he recanted and backed off of that.

00:33:09.740 But that's a whole other animal.

00:33:11.500 They were being told that it wouldn't be good to have an athlete's representative.

00:33:14.720 Well, who's telling them?

00:33:15.980 The people that are running the industry.

00:33:17.720 They didn't want me in there looking at what's going on for the betterment of the bodybuilders.

00:33:22.040 But nonetheless, I became the athlete's rep.

00:33:23.700 When they changed the time on a meeting that I was supposed to attend, that's when I just quit.

00:33:28.500 01?

00:33:29.600 03.

00:33:30.320 Okay.

00:33:30.720 I quit that.

00:33:31.580 And then, of course, I said, you know what?

00:33:33.500 I moved on.

00:33:34.220 I got married.

00:33:35.300 Started my family.

00:33:36.500 Suddenly, bodybuilding and the things that were happening in bodybuilding weren't as important.

00:33:41.020 But I was still representing supplement companies, still doing seminars, still making appearances.

00:33:45.640 But I didn't really have the passion to defend the athletes that are not willing to stick their neck out for change.

00:33:51.500 A.K.A. Phil Heath.

00:33:52.700 Because Undertone, you kind of talked about him a little bit like five minutes ago, right?

00:33:56.260 So are you saying somebody like Phil Heath could have done more for the sport?

00:34:00.140 A lot of those athletes could have done more for themselves.

00:34:02.480 If you're doing well, you're Mr. Olympia.

00:34:04.360 You're doing well without having to rock the boat.

00:34:06.320 Ronnie Coleman was in a press conference where he says, listen, I was last.

00:34:10.260 I didn't complain.

00:34:11.060 I was this.

00:34:11.560 I didn't complain.

00:34:12.520 Blah, blah, blah.

00:34:13.260 Why complain?

00:34:14.280 Well, when you're getting the lion's share of everything, the six-year contract with Weider on his first Olympia, got a six-year contract, right?

00:34:22.420 You're getting that $100,000 payday, and you're getting the $10,000 guest posings.

00:34:28.800 Yeah, why complain?

00:34:29.840 But you can't turn your eyes to the fact that the guy that's in the Olympia, that's number 11, representing Saudi Arabia, is not going to get a dime when he leaves here.

00:34:38.760 But he's on the poster.

00:34:40.020 He's representing a country.

00:34:41.520 And he's got legions of fans, and they're selling that.

00:34:44.160 This guy should be getting paid.

00:34:45.400 All of the guys showing up for the Olympia.

00:34:47.000 I guarantee you, in the Super Bowl this weekend, everyone's going to walk away with money, even the losers, just for making it to the Olympia.

00:34:53.640 I was arguing for that for the Mr. Olympia.

00:34:55.860 So if this was politics, and you're running for office, you're for the majority.

00:35:04.040 It's not necessarily more for the individual, is what you're saying.

00:35:07.120 So you're for the little guy, because based on what you said, Ronnie, he had aid in a run.

00:35:13.120 You went Ronnie, you went Dorian, you went, what is it, Haney, Dorian, and Ronnie, right?

00:35:19.280 You went through these big three guys to face you.

00:35:21.520 If those guys are not around.

00:35:22.960 That's 22 years of Mr. Olympia.

00:35:25.920 Wait, 22 consecutive years of Mr. Olympia.

00:35:29.680 Ronnie had aid, Lee Haney had aid, and Dorian had aid.

00:35:32.260 During my 14-year pro career, I came probably five years too late.

00:35:36.720 A lot of people think I'm sour grapes.

00:35:38.020 But let me tell you something.

00:35:38.780 I had one of the best, colorful careers of not winning a show and still being inducted

00:35:45.040 into the Bodybuilding Hall of Fame, all at 5'7", 210 pounds.

00:35:48.540 I got nothing to complain about.

00:35:50.020 I don't think anybody takes that away from you.

00:35:51.560 Well, a lot of people think, with social media, you hear a lot of opinions.

00:35:54.400 People think I'm sour grapes that I didn't beat Dorian.

00:35:56.780 Nobody beat Dorian.

00:35:57.820 I mean, Mohammed Ben Aziza, the shortest guy up there, beat him in his rookie year.

00:36:01.980 But outside of me, no one else beat Dorian.

00:36:04.420 And I was in the conversation argumentatively to beat Dorian Yates, but I didn't hear the

00:36:08.820 same argument for Kevin Lavronia to beat Dorian Yates.

00:36:11.400 I didn't hear that Flex Wheeler should have beat Dorian Yates.

00:36:14.180 The controversy was like 94-96, also 97, Nassar.

00:36:18.220 A couple of times, Dorian could have been beat.

00:36:20.000 It's left for debate.

00:36:21.020 But I sleep well at night.

00:36:22.960 I didn't have to not...

00:36:24.940 It doesn't take anything away from my career that I didn't win the Mr. Olympia is what

00:36:28.160 I'm saying.

00:36:28.540 I think because I'm healthy, because I didn't tear my bicep, because I didn't lose my leg,

00:36:32.980 because I didn't wind up in a wheelchair, it doesn't make me any smarter than those bodybuilders.

00:36:37.180 They did what they had to do.

00:36:38.800 But I was always aware of the finish line.

00:36:40.900 I wanted to be healthy.

00:36:42.240 I wanted to be wealthy.

00:36:43.660 And I wanted to be well-traveled.

00:36:45.000 I got all of those things.

00:36:45.860 I didn't get the standout trophy, but I don't lose any sleep over that.

00:36:48.940 So 32 years, 88 to 2020, you've never missed the Olympia.

00:36:53.760 And you've never missed the Arnold Classic since the first one you went to.

00:36:56.380 Never missed one, absolutely.

00:36:57.620 So you're a gamer.

00:36:59.740 But I'm not a company man.

00:37:01.300 That's what I want to make clear, because you were alluding to the...

00:37:03.760 I don't know.

00:37:04.060 You were alluding to the fact that I'm working.

00:37:06.740 I think I'm working.

00:37:07.880 I'm carrying on the torch that Joe and Ben have.

00:37:10.520 I worked for Muscle and Fitness last year, promoting the Mr. Olympia, which is in their

00:37:15.380 wheelhouse.

00:37:16.760 Promoting it in what way?

00:37:18.800 Trying to get more visibility.

00:37:20.260 But then I'm also a witness to what's happening.

00:37:22.000 I witnessed the largest payout in the history of the game last year.

00:37:26.740 They raised the prize money for the Miss Olympia, the Physique, Classic Physique.

00:37:32.120 Every division got a raise, and the Mr. Olympia is $400,000.

00:37:35.660 So I can't complain about the prize money.

00:37:38.000 If I see any more money coming in, yeah, I'd like it not to go to the top.

00:37:41.780 I'd like it to feed down to the bottom.

00:37:43.740 And working with somebody like Dan, who I could walk into Dan's office and say,

00:37:46.680 Dan, we've got to do something for the people outside the top 10.

00:37:50.000 Because while they're not winning, they're still lending credence and credibility to

00:37:54.920 this show.

00:37:55.600 We've got to pick up the back end monetarily.

00:37:58.420 Don't give the winner more money.

00:38:00.500 Because $400,000 is a pretty big payday, but it's also a platform to go out and do other

00:38:04.800 things, develop sponsorship.

00:38:06.220 Don't give the winner more money? 0.98

00:38:07.460 Well, if you want to make it a winner-take-all, then why are we going to have 20 people competing

00:38:11.300 for the Mr. Olympia title?

00:38:13.200 You know, if it's a winner-take-all, then what are we doing with these other guys?

00:38:17.320 It has to be more inclusive if you're going to get people coming to that competition.

00:38:20.440 Do you think capitalism works?

00:38:22.560 It does, but why have so many shows to qualify for the Olympia?

00:38:25.640 Well, you're a capitalist.

00:38:26.520 Well, I don't want to go to the show and just watch Brandon Curry stand up there by himself.

00:38:29.380 No, I'm not saying that.

00:38:30.880 I'm not saying that at all.

00:38:32.520 But do you believe capitalism works?

00:38:33.940 Okay, you know capitalism works.

00:38:35.100 And capitalism typically works because there's a what?

00:38:37.420 There's a guy that's, you know, way ahead that pisses off the rest of the guys.

00:38:41.520 Sure.

00:38:41.880 And those guys are willing to go out there and do more.

00:38:44.500 Typically, if you have one person that becomes-

00:38:45.900 Well, no, it's still a subjective sport of opinion.

00:38:48.020 Like you said, listen, it's not boxing.

00:38:49.680 A hundred percent.

00:38:50.620 The guy that takes last in the Mr. Olympia may not look like Mr. Olympia, but does just

00:38:54.760 as much work.

00:38:55.440 Listen, I mean, look, okay, if that's the case, let me just get into this part.

00:38:58.980 I'll play this video for you because I actually agree with what you say here.

00:39:03.440 And I want to go into this next.

00:39:05.320 So if, Paul, you want to come around here.

00:39:08.760 Okay, this is one of the things I want to go with to see what you'll say about this.

00:39:12.540 And you know this.

00:39:13.340 You brought this up a couple of times.

00:39:14.380 Yeah, we have 22 judges that are in rotation.

00:39:16.580 You know which one this is.

00:39:17.340 Nobody's asked the question out of those 22 judges, how many judges judged us last year

00:39:21.500 that will be judging us this year?

00:39:23.100 There's going to be 11 guys that leave this show Saturday night, nothing in their pocket.

00:39:26.700 I mean, somebody needs to address it.

00:39:28.740 Ronnie's not going to complain.

00:39:30.160 He gets the check every year.

00:39:32.800 So who are you going to hear from?

00:39:34.020 You're going to hear from me.

00:39:35.260 But certainly it is 2001 and I'm still being judged by the same people.

00:39:40.120 There are enough people out there where the IFBB's got to recruit new judges. 1.00

00:39:43.480 We need new opinions to get new looks in bodybuilding. 0.99

00:39:46.840 We're not going to continue.

00:39:47.820 And then your buddy Ronnie responds, which you said right now yourself.

00:39:51.440 So this is going to paraphrase what you said.

00:39:53.600 Nobody's ever liked everything somebody else has ever liked.

00:39:58.400 In 1992, I didn't play at all in the Olympics.

00:40:02.540 Pretty much what you said.

00:40:03.320 Didn't get a dime.

00:40:04.340 Didn't get a dollar.

00:40:05.920 I didn't complain.

00:40:07.380 The moral to the story is, why complain?

00:40:11.220 Maybe you'll find out, like a little kid that complaining ain't going to really get you nowhere for where you are now in second place.

00:40:27.020 Which is, by the way, this is great for the sport.

00:40:29.200 Absolutely.

00:40:29.940 This is great for the sport.

00:40:30.920 Who doesn't like Ronnie Coleman?

00:40:32.440 I mean, that is classic and typical Ronnie Coleman.

00:40:35.160 Mind you, here's a guy that came from a very educated background, right?

00:40:40.080 Didn't get into bodybuilding for the money.

00:40:41.680 And if they took the prize money away, Ronnie Coleman would probably be the only one competing for the Mr. Olympia title.

00:40:47.080 I wouldn't do it for free.

00:40:48.340 This is a business.

00:40:49.740 And I think that if you're going to leverage other countries, if you're going to leverage other countries and you're going to include Iran or you're going to include Germany or England, it's got to be palatable or we're going to lose that international flavor because you're going to run into a guy like him, Ronnie or Phil, that can run off with the title for six or seven or eight more years.

00:41:08.020 And we're going to wind up with a show that nobody wants to attend because it's a foregone conclusion.

00:41:12.020 So let me tell you why I play this right now for you.

00:41:14.140 What led me to wanting to play the video now?

00:41:16.240 You said bodybuilding is a very subjective sport, right?

00:41:20.260 Like, you know how you're a basketball guy.

00:41:23.020 Jordan wouldn't win an MVP.

00:41:24.800 They're like, give me a break.

00:41:25.860 You've got to give it to Barkley.

00:41:27.940 You've got to give it to Akeem or whatever.

00:41:30.160 They're giving it to others.

00:41:30.840 Everybody knows who's the MVP.

00:41:32.840 Jordan could have won MVP 12 years in a row if you really think about it, right?

00:41:35.800 And LeBron could have won way more than the four that he has or some of these guys that are playing.

00:41:40.100 Shaq could have been a Kobe could have.

00:41:41.940 Sometimes they do that and it's politics.

00:41:44.040 How do you measure MVP?

00:41:45.460 You can't measure MVP.

00:41:46.440 It's also subjective, right?

00:41:47.540 There's somebody that's voting for it.

00:41:49.240 The judging from 88 to today, okay?

00:41:53.900 You make a very, very good point.

00:41:57.000 Nothing is more annoying than me putting my body through what I'm putting through to get it to where it's at today.

00:42:02.780 And I have to sit there and hear judges make a decision on my body.

00:42:07.140 And they may not know necessarily if they're judging a property or not.

00:42:10.320 How much have you seen judging improve from 88 to where we are today?

00:42:14.040 What's been the evolution?

00:42:15.240 I mean, you've got to remember, I retired because the judging wasn't changing.

00:42:18.620 People said, why did I walk away 35, 36 years old?

00:42:21.680 You could have still gone six more years.

00:42:23.260 That was my final salvo.

00:42:25.720 After that contest, I think you heard me say somewhere in there, don't worry.

00:42:29.200 I've done my homework.

00:42:30.120 I'm not afraid of anybody because I knew they couldn't take what I do away.

00:42:34.560 I'm going to put it on display and the fans are going to see it, right?

00:42:38.040 But I didn't want to get back up in front of those judges again and be a part of the Ronnie Coleman retirement party four years after I retired because they say he's just too big.

00:42:47.840 I mean, if that's what bodybuilding was coming to, and I think that's why Lee Labrata walked away, we just didn't carry the size.

00:42:54.260 Well, then what am I doing?

00:42:55.080 I mean, I have other things in life I want to achieve.

00:42:57.820 I have other things to do with my time that beat myself up in a gym and abuse my body because that's what bodybuilding is.

00:43:03.440 You're beating the hell out of yourself.

00:43:05.940 These judges weren't changing and going away anytime soon.

00:43:08.920 Now, I'm 19 years removed from that press conference.

00:43:12.880 I'm in a different space.

00:43:14.180 I don't go to a show and analyze how the judges are doing it.

00:43:17.660 When I take my role as an analyst, I see it the way Sean Ray sees it.

00:43:21.140 I put it in the microphone for the world to hear and disseminate.

00:43:23.820 The judges are still going to make their decisions.

00:43:25.900 Now, before Phil Heath got through with his prejudging, I said Sean Roden was probably going to win that contest.

00:43:32.760 Before Brandon Curry finished his prejudging, I said we're probably looking at a new Mr. Olympia in Brandon Curry.

00:43:39.520 That's a big statement when you have Phil Heath who has seven Olympia titles.

00:43:42.840 You just got to assume he can walk in and win the show.

00:43:46.260 I watched it with Ronnie Coleman.

00:43:47.420 Seven years prior to that, did you say he was going to win each one when you saw him?

00:43:50.580 Phil?

00:43:51.240 Yeah.

00:43:51.680 No, Phil's very first pro win was a Sean Ray Classic in Colorado.

00:43:55.500 I'm not sure if you know that.

00:43:56.360 But when we saw that, we knew he was something special.

00:43:59.360 Jay Cutler acknowledges there was something special.

00:44:01.340 I think Phil bought into that knowing he was something special.

00:44:04.760 He was brought along properly.

00:44:06.040 He came up the ranks fourth or fifth, his first Olympia, second, and then he ultimately did what he was going to do.

00:44:11.760 But you can see genetics.

00:44:13.360 There's no denying it.

00:44:14.360 Now it just comes down to work ethic.

00:44:16.260 Phil had all of those intangibles coming from a background of basketball.

00:44:20.400 Brandon Curry, not so much.

00:44:21.920 Sean Roden is laid back, not so much.

00:44:24.100 He had the genetics, but you just didn't know if he had the work ethic.

00:44:27.060 But you can see that Sean won that competition, not because he's a better bodybuilder, but because Phil was clearly off.

00:44:33.860 Now I've heard a lot of people say, Phil being off is still better than Sean Roden.

00:44:36.940 The judges did the right thing because I wish they would have done that in my era because we probably would have had several other Mr. Olympias like Kevin LeVroni or Flex Wheeler.

00:44:46.360 But the judges get comfortable with the same thing when they're people that they are friends with, they're comfortable with, and that they're used to.

00:44:54.920 This same group of judges likes chocolate this year.

00:44:57.440 They're going to like chocolate next year.

00:44:58.540 And they're going to like chocolate the next year.

00:44:59.820 It's hard to break down that barrier unless you start throwing in some different judges in there.

00:45:05.280 And we're not doing that.

00:45:06.880 Are they doing it now?

00:45:07.980 I don't know because I don't have a horse in that race.

00:45:10.280 You're on the inside now a little bit more.

00:45:12.000 No, what I'm saying, my role is not to analyze who the judging panel is.

00:45:15.000 But you're a voice, too.

00:45:15.880 You're not a regular guy.

00:45:16.880 I am an analyst, and there is a difference.

00:45:18.900 At the time, I became the athlete's rep, and I defended the athletes.

00:45:22.320 In a time where the athletes did not want to be defended.

00:45:25.760 As a matter of fact, Craig said that I forged his signature.

00:45:28.140 And that's a lie because I didn't have to do that.

00:45:29.820 And I was voted the athlete's rep.

00:45:31.740 And I quit that job.

00:45:32.720 I had the power right here, and I quit it because of how it was being run under Wayne D'Amelia.

00:45:37.220 Now, I can say what I want to say based on what I'm looking at.

00:45:41.820 I'm not looking at it through the eyes of a judge.

00:45:43.860 My vote doesn't count.

00:45:44.960 It's my opinion.

00:45:46.240 And like Stephen A. Smith, I'm entitled to my opinion, and I put it out there for the world to decide.

00:45:51.080 But the last three, last four Olympias, I was spot on, including with Hottie Chupin.

00:45:55.920 And for that matter, coming into the Arnold Classic, Josh Lenarkiewicz wants to beat me up because I said he had some head surgery.

00:46:03.920 And I said, this is probably not what he should be doing right now, regardless of how he looks.

00:46:07.840 If I had a head surgery, I probably wouldn't want to be bodybuilding, at least take a year off.

00:46:12.460 What's the beat me up as a result of that criticism? 0.99

00:46:14.860 Sergio Oliva Jr., I don't have him in my top six going into the Arnold Classic, so now I'm a whiny bitch. 0.90

00:46:20.800 I mean, I can't please the athlete, but I have the ability to speak my opinion. 0.65

00:46:25.180 My opinion is not a vote on a judging panel.

00:46:27.220 I don't think that's the question.

00:46:28.340 So you said Stephen A. Smith.

00:46:29.500 I'm like Stephen A. Smith.

00:46:30.340 I'm an analyst.

00:46:31.360 Yes.

00:46:31.700 Who pays you? 0.98

00:46:32.960 I get paid by numerous sources.

00:46:34.620 I'm a sponsored endorser of—

00:46:36.560 Does Mr. Olympia pay you?

00:46:37.640 No, I do not get paid by the Mr. Olympia except for—

00:46:39.720 AMI?

00:46:40.960 I never got a check from AMI.

00:46:42.420 I got a check from Muscle and Fitness last year when I was writing for Muscle and Fitness.

00:46:46.840 I write for Digital Muscle.

00:46:49.080 I'm the editor of—

00:46:49.540 That's great to know.

00:46:50.380 And Digital Muscle is the broadcast of the Mr. Olympia weekend.

00:46:54.680 So Jake Wood signs my check.

00:46:56.820 I didn't get a check from—

00:46:58.080 Is it linked to Mr. Olympia or no?

00:47:00.020 No.

00:47:00.900 Digital Muscle, prior to Digital Muscle, you had iHerb doing the worldwide broadcast.

00:47:05.600 And prior to that, you had bodybuilding.com.

00:47:08.020 I worked for those guys.

00:47:09.080 I would get my—just like the Arnold Classic, I get my check from Bob Lorimer when I emceed the competition.

00:47:14.220 Yeah.

00:47:14.480 When the Olympia rolls around, my check will come from the Digital Muscle from doing the web broadcast.

00:47:20.340 Last year, it came from Muscle Fitness.

00:47:22.100 So there's no NPC, IFBB signature on any of my checks.

00:47:25.480 I get paid by my sponsors, which is Real Leader USA, a gym equipment out of China.

00:47:31.120 S-Force Watches.

00:47:33.700 I'm a spokesperson for Protan USA.

00:47:37.160 And I represent a clothing line, a men's clothing line, Leroy Reve.

00:47:40.500 So none of the money that I generate comes from the infrastructure of the industry.

00:47:45.160 This capitalism thing we're talking about, it all comes from the pedigree that I built up as an Olympian.

00:47:49.660 You've always been known as being a great business guy in the bodybuilding world.

00:47:52.580 But that's the platform they give you, right?

00:47:54.500 So in that platform, I heard you say something like, what is the Olympia doing for you athletes?

00:48:00.460 They don't owe us anything.

00:48:01.860 It's just like boxing.

00:48:02.760 You can't say that.

00:48:03.600 Well, listen, we're not a union.

00:48:04.720 You can't say that.

00:48:04.900 Hold on.

00:48:05.380 This is not the NFL, and it's not the NBA.

00:48:07.840 And we don't pretend that—you know, when we had Joe Weider, it was a one-stop shop.

00:48:12.340 Everyone in the early 90s—I was part of it—was on the Weider payroll.

00:48:15.800 We were the machine, Flex Magazine, Muscle Fitness.

00:48:18.240 That's gone.

00:48:19.100 Weider was bought by AMI.

00:48:20.740 Now all you have are your supplements or your clothing lines or your own individual things that your entrepreneurial skills can develop.

00:48:28.820 Sure, yeah.

00:48:29.520 There is no federational check going to anybody.

00:48:32.500 The IFBB doesn't write a check to anyone except for the winners of the pro competitions.

00:48:37.500 They're not writing—I don't get a monthly check because I'm a member of the pro league.

00:48:41.360 I don't think I'm debating the part that Phil ought to be doing more stuff to go make money.

00:48:46.600 I don't think I'm debating—we're not off there, so we're not off.

00:48:49.820 And he's working on that right now.

00:48:51.400 He's got a lot of good things that he's working on.

00:48:52.940 The side project—

00:48:53.560 Which the Olympia platform has provided.

00:48:55.200 It's great.

00:48:55.540 And Kai Greene's been able to monetize it probably more than any other bodybuilder in the last five years.

00:48:59.840 A lot of guys.

00:49:00.200 Mine is Jay Cutler.

00:49:01.160 Okay, Jay Cutler is a—

00:49:02.460 Machine.

00:49:02.960 He knows how to make money, and he's a smart guy.

00:49:05.600 But I'm bringing this up to you from a different standpoint.

00:49:08.620 You're saying, you know, what is Mr. Olympia doing for you?

00:49:11.820 Okay?

00:49:12.620 I'm saying it because I've said it on multiple videos.

00:49:14.620 What is Mr. Olympia brand doing for you?

00:49:16.100 Great.

00:49:17.080 I'm not saying it from the standpoint of, hey, you know, let's make college free.

00:49:22.600 Let's do this free.

00:49:23.800 Let's take care of your bills. 0.97

00:49:25.100 Let's pay—I'm not saying that.

00:49:26.200 It's not what I'm saying to you.

00:49:27.240 What I am saying is there's got to be somebody that sits there and says, like a Joe Weedy you're talking about, like a Steinburner.

00:49:33.920 Yeah.

00:49:34.100 Like a Jerry Buss, like a—you know these names that I mentioned.

00:49:37.460 I know, right.

00:49:37.900 Like a Kraft.

00:49:38.480 Like these guys are coming and saying, hey, let's go do something.

00:49:40.620 I'm thinking you've got to talk to this guy.

00:49:41.980 I know this person over here.

00:49:42.840 I want to introduce you to this guy.

00:49:43.920 I want to introduce you to that guy.

00:49:45.380 I would want to have my number one become so flippant successful that the next 22-year-old wants to have that life.

00:49:52.840 No, and I'm 100% with you.

00:49:54.360 However, you're absolutely right.

00:49:55.800 There's none of that.

00:49:57.260 So what's the solution for that?

00:49:58.580 You're next.

00:49:59.120 You're 32 years.

00:50:00.140 Absolutely.

00:50:00.480 And I brought that up before talking with Dan Solomon, who's at the top of the Olympia chain, because it seems like when you have the changing of the guard, when you do the same thing, you wind up with the same results.

00:50:11.220 The best thing that could have happened for the Olympia is that they had a changing of the guard.

00:50:14.240 They brought in some new people.

00:50:16.380 So with Dan, who is of the same ilk as me, he's got this pedigree with the Pro Bodybuilding Weekly.

00:50:21.720 He was the former editor of the Digital Muscle.

00:50:23.800 He's now running the Mr. Olympia weekend and putting all these different people in play to kind of build it back up.

00:50:30.860 Last year we had Mark Wahlberg as ambassador.

00:50:33.800 This year we have Shaquille O'Neal.

00:50:36.260 He's not the guy, okay, because he doesn't have the—

00:50:39.040 Does he know that?

00:50:39.880 He knows that because his role is to make sure that when the athletes wind up at the Super Bowl of bodybuilding, they get what they want, which is why I was telling you it's got to have the trickle-down effect with the guys that are coming from these other countries, wherever they're coming from, Japan, China.

00:50:52.940 They need to get some reward in order to keep coming back to go to the Olympia.

00:50:57.420 We don't have that godfather.

00:50:58.780 If I were looking for that godfather, I'd look towards Jim Mannion.

00:51:01.380 But that's never been his role.

00:51:02.660 He's the president of the NPC and now the expanded NPC worldwide.

00:51:07.320 His grandson Tyler is a little bit too young, 25, 26 years old.

00:51:10.800 He's not the guy.

00:51:11.920 There is no replacing Joe and Ben because you've got to consider who's dedicated to this that way.

00:51:18.100 You can't say that, though.

00:51:19.020 Yeah, but who is?

00:51:20.120 But let me explain to you.

00:51:20.580 I've been around.

00:51:21.320 I know everybody.

00:51:21.800 I am agreeing with you.

00:51:23.100 I don't know the world that if there is or there isn't, but I will give you a perfect perspective.

00:51:29.120 Okay.

00:51:29.420 Okay.

00:51:30.140 Oh, you know, Chris Paul leaves and goes to the Clippers.

00:51:34.060 Okay.

00:51:34.560 They're there, not working out.

00:51:36.120 Donald Sterling, he leaves.

00:51:37.320 He stays.

00:51:38.840 Next guy comes, builds an organization.

00:51:41.360 You know, Doc becomes president, GM.

00:51:43.560 They start winning.

00:51:44.360 Good things are happening.

00:51:45.160 Players want to go there.

00:51:46.020 Then next, you know, Kawhi Leonard and Paul George decide to go over there.

00:51:49.060 Right.

00:51:49.400 Okay.

00:51:50.040 So, the Clippers is an organization.

00:51:54.820 It was owned by a different person.

00:51:56.820 And another guy came in and decided to take it to a different level.

00:52:00.120 Understood.

00:52:00.580 And players want to play for him, right?

00:52:01.960 Right.

00:52:02.180 Hey, I got contacts at Microsoft.

00:52:04.500 I got contacts over here.

00:52:05.520 I got contacts over here.

00:52:07.300 And he loves the game.

00:52:08.820 He's a Cuban.

00:52:09.420 Look at what Mark Cuban did.

00:52:10.540 A very classy move.

00:52:11.620 He made this last week.

00:52:12.780 Kobe never played for, what do you call it, the Mavericks.

00:52:16.080 Right.

00:52:16.320 What does he do?

00:52:16.900 He retires Jersey number 24.

00:52:19.200 That's right.

00:52:19.540 The Mavs players love playing for this guy.

00:52:21.540 Dirk Nowitzki never wanted to go anywhere else.

00:52:23.780 Now you got the poor Zangas and you got this new kid, Luka, who to me, one of the most exciting 0.99

00:52:27.660 players in the league, wants to play for him.

00:52:29.840 Yeah.

00:52:30.140 And some of the teams, people don't want to play for the owner.

00:52:32.760 Yeah.

00:52:33.020 And then you look at some of the other like boxing and you look at MMA.

00:52:38.220 I don't know if you follow UFC.

00:52:39.440 I do.

00:52:39.720 Look at Dana White.

00:52:40.640 There was pride.

00:52:41.220 If you remember MMA 15 years ago, it wasn't just UFC.

00:52:44.800 Right.

00:52:45.040 There was a few other things and you were kind of watching this.

00:52:47.100 They would let you knee the guy in the face and UFC didn't.

00:52:49.800 And then they started doing some things.

00:52:51.620 And then he came out with a show called the, what was the show called?

00:52:54.580 Is it Ultimate Fighter?

00:52:55.740 Ultimate Fighter.

00:52:56.600 Next thing you know, we're like, oh, this is kind of cool.

00:52:58.480 They're living in the same place.

00:52:59.380 They're getting into fights.

00:53:00.580 So take Ultimate Fighter out.

00:53:01.940 You mean to tell me UFC would be as big as today?

00:53:04.220 So all I'm saying is, all I'm saying is, if somebody, if somebody is working on finding

00:53:12.380 a way to turn Sean Ray into a hero, to turn Brandon Curry into a hero, above and beyond

00:53:18.620 what Phil, what you, what Brandon, what all these other guys need to do on their own.

00:53:23.300 Right.

00:53:23.520 If somebody does that, you're just giving me a bigger pool of exposure.

00:53:26.840 No, you're right.

00:53:27.680 That's what I'm talking about.

00:53:28.720 I'm not throwing anybody under the bus.

00:53:30.220 I just don't see that happening.

00:53:31.340 Our sport is not at that level.

00:53:33.620 We are, it is still a cult sport.

00:53:35.280 We're not the UFC.

00:53:36.260 We don't have billions of dollars of value.

00:53:38.700 They didn't either 15 years ago.

00:53:40.360 No.

00:53:40.720 And you're talking about people.

00:53:42.040 Remember, Joe Weider started at 15.

00:53:43.640 He died at 93.

00:53:44.580 And he devoted his life to this.

00:53:45.980 We don't have anybody with that type of pedigree pulling the strings or running the industry.

00:53:50.720 We have some, some glimpses of people that have the familiarity.

00:53:53.420 We're living in a time now where the athlete can control the way they look and how they're

00:53:58.500 perceived through their own digital media.

00:54:00.560 Yeah.

00:54:00.960 When I was with Joe Weider, I couldn't talk to another magazine because he owned me exclusively.

00:54:04.660 You wouldn't have read a Sean Ray article that I gave you.

00:54:07.520 So that would have to come through Muscle Fitness and Flex because I couldn't do it with Iron

00:54:11.300 Man and Muscle Development.

00:54:12.580 They weren't paying me.

00:54:13.600 I was paid to exclusively appear there.

00:54:15.960 Now what you're finding is that, yeah, the magazines may not be what they were, but there's

00:54:20.960 a lot of athletes that they will only get the news on their feed.

00:54:25.120 If you're not following them on Instagram or on their Facebook, you're not going to find

00:54:28.720 out about them.

00:54:29.380 They won't do the business of bodybuilding outside of their own social media.

00:54:34.100 Getting them to come do a podcast with you, that might be outside the scope of if they

00:54:38.500 have their own podcast.

00:54:39.740 You know what I'm saying?

00:54:40.220 They want you on their social media.

00:54:42.120 It's numbers because then I can sell it.

00:54:43.900 I can sell advertising.

00:54:46.520 There's nobody, and we need that.

00:54:48.200 I would love that if we had some school of thought, for example, one of our bodybuilders

00:54:52.940 got in trouble.

00:54:53.580 I think a lot of the trouble that he got into was there was no mentorship.

00:54:57.780 You come to the Lakers, you're going to meet Magic Johnson.

00:55:00.180 You would have met Kobe Bryant, and they would have showed you the way around the locker room

00:55:04.340 and how business is done as a young, raw talent.

00:55:07.240 You come into pro bodybuilding, you've got the best genetics, and you're the future Mr.

00:55:10.520 Olympia.

00:55:11.000 There's no one telling you how to be Mr. Olympia.

00:55:13.620 It's baptism by fire, and you can wind up in a lot of hot places like one of our Olympia

00:55:18.760 champions ultimately did because probably didn't have the right mentorship.

00:55:22.220 Do we need that?

00:55:24.080 Yeah.

00:55:24.380 Is there someone out there that I can point a finger to in all of my years?

00:55:27.400 There's no one that is out there that's in that position to take that on.

00:55:33.060 I mean, it really is the wild, wild west in bodybuilding because you can't go to Arnold.

00:55:37.200 Arnold's, you know, his 70s, got a lot of things going on.

00:55:40.040 It's not his passion like Joe's.

00:55:41.540 Joe had that passion, and that passion's gone, and now we don't have anybody like that.

00:55:45.680 So, this being a very individualized sport, you've got to make of it what you can, and

00:55:51.480 you take from it what you will.

00:55:52.700 Jay has no desire either?

00:55:54.100 Jay, uh...

00:55:54.640 No.

00:55:55.060 I mean, we're at such an individual business, independent contracting business, that Jay's

00:55:59.440 all about Jay.

00:56:00.380 And can you blame him?

00:56:01.360 No, not at all.

00:56:02.140 Why not?

00:56:02.460 He did everything he had to do, and he probably doesn't even have the relationships with the

00:56:06.640 bodybuilders today that he had when he was competing.

00:56:09.160 Whose fault is that, though?

00:56:10.360 I think we're disjointed now because of social media.

00:56:13.800 But no, I don't think it's social media because social media has also brought a lot of people

00:56:18.660 together.

00:56:19.340 It has.

00:56:19.580 Sean, if you think about it, social media has also brought a lot of people together.

00:56:23.460 You go back to...

00:56:24.040 It's also divided a lot of people because you get blocked and deleted, and you say the

00:56:27.860 wrong thing, you put up the wrong...

00:56:29.180 I put up a picture of me and Dorian Yates standing relaxed, and I actually look better

00:56:32.380 than him, and had a bunch of his fans come on here, block, delete, block, delete.

00:56:35.580 I actually think that's a good thing.

00:56:36.160 That shows loyalty for him, and that shows, you know, some of the people that probably

00:56:39.980 came and said good things about you.

00:56:41.300 You take Twitter out, the current president's not president.

00:56:43.660 Right.

00:56:44.000 You take Facebook and YouTube out, Barack Obama's not a two-term senator.

00:56:47.320 You know, you take social media out.

00:56:49.220 It's a powerful tool.

00:56:50.060 It's a powerful tool.

00:56:51.240 It's how you use the tool.

00:56:52.720 People can say stuff they want to say about weapons, about a lot of different TVs.

00:56:56.620 First, oh my gosh, look at the TV.

00:56:57.660 Look at Elvis Presley, the way he's moving his hips. 0.99

00:56:59.600 Our girls are going to have sex with everybody now. 1.00

00:57:01.520 They're going to do drugs and... 0.98

00:57:02.100 I know, I have a 14-year-old dancer and singer.

00:57:04.440 You know, these things go, but you know, you sit there and some of the worries, it's how do you

00:57:08.420 use the great equalizer of social media?

00:57:10.720 To me, I think social media is a big advantage to Mr. Olympia if they do it properly.

00:57:17.360 Well, when you start talking about the athletes, the athletes are so divided, so dispersed,

00:57:21.700 and so individualized.

00:57:22.740 Bring them together.

00:57:23.700 Well, I mean, when you start bringing them together, everybody wants to be paid for their

00:57:26.820 time, right?

00:57:27.500 So if I'm working for you, put me on the payroll.

00:57:29.620 That's pretty much the attitude of a lot of the bodybuilders.

00:57:31.720 If I brought all of you guys together, I'm not telling you I'm going to put you on the payroll.

00:57:35.240 Here's what I would say.

00:57:35.900 I would say, listen, guys, let's look at a model.

00:57:38.780 Put parallels on models together, right?

00:57:40.540 What's the other model?

00:57:41.560 UFC.

00:57:42.060 Let's look at the UFC model.

00:57:43.360 Right.

00:57:43.620 UFC model took viewers away from boxing.

00:57:46.040 Yeah.

00:57:46.380 There were people that followed boxing that became UFC fans, right?

00:57:49.240 Me, I'm one of them.

00:57:49.900 So, yeah, me too.

00:57:50.720 They pulled away from it, right?

00:57:51.920 Now, boxing, there is no Don King today.

00:57:54.560 Right.

00:57:54.680 The only biggest promoter today is Mayweather.

00:57:56.600 It ain't even anybody that's Bob, you know, just those promoters are not well.

00:58:00.720 Okay.

00:58:01.300 So if I bring you guys in and say, listen, guys, here's what we want to do.

00:58:03.720 What do we want to do?

00:58:04.920 This is our numbers.

00:58:06.160 Here's what we did.

00:58:07.160 Here's our revenues.

00:58:08.280 This is pay-per-view.

00:58:09.360 Here's how much we sold here.

00:58:10.440 Here's how much we sold here.

00:58:11.340 Here's how much we sold here.

00:58:12.420 Yeah.

00:58:12.660 If there is a way for us to get the numbers here, this is what we could do.

00:58:17.100 I can't pay you salary.

00:58:18.480 Right.

00:58:18.680 I can't pay the numbers.

00:58:19.560 Now, here's what happens next.

00:58:21.740 All of a sudden, out of the 15 people that are in there, what do eight of them do? 0.97

00:58:25.320 They say, screw you. 0.83

00:58:26.700 I don't want to do it. 1.00

00:58:27.340 You pay me now.

00:58:27.860 I don't do anything.

00:58:28.660 No problem.

00:58:29.020 We totally understand.

00:58:29.940 We hope you can help us.

00:58:31.500 Right.

00:58:31.780 Out of the seven that's in, three, four of them say, okay, let's do something about this.

00:58:35.660 Then we run.

00:58:36.260 You're not expecting to get everybody.

00:58:37.780 You're not ever going to get everybody.

00:58:38.800 But you're coming from a place where the bodybuilders think there's something wrong.

00:58:42.960 I'm telling you, to a man, they're in it for themselves.

00:58:46.740 To try to bring that unity together, you've got to be talking about the bottom feeders that are getting absolutely nothing.

00:58:53.420 Most of these guys have found a way to monetize their social media.

00:58:56.540 They pick and choose when they want to compete.

00:58:58.200 Their trainers tell them when they can and cannot compete.

00:59:01.100 We're still on this diverse road to nowhere in terms of unity.

00:59:06.960 There is no unification because, again, you don't have athlete representation.

00:59:10.860 But what I will say, and this is not a company, man, not missing the Olympia in 32 years.

00:59:15.280 It's bigger than it's ever been.

00:59:17.160 The prize money is in terms of attendance, in terms of prize money, in terms of participation.

00:59:23.200 And now they're adding another division.

00:59:24.580 More attendees in the last year.

00:59:25.400 Absolutely.

00:59:26.020 So more people coming now than 32 years ago?

00:59:28.100 I'd like to invite you this year just so you can see it.

00:59:30.760 I was there.

00:59:31.300 Mind you, I'm there in this packed arena, sold out, standing room only.

00:59:36.960 And people were still trying to get tickets on the 11th hour at the finals.

00:59:40.900 And that's because, I think, they realized there was, number one, going to be a new Mr. Olympia.

00:59:45.320 But AMI still has the publicity machine of their, you know, magazines and publications that they have.

00:59:52.160 They've reached out across the board with, like, Mark Wahlberg and other big personalities.

00:59:56.560 Which, by the way, I love that move that they're making with that.

00:59:59.480 It was obviously Rock, then Mark, and now Shaq.

01:00:01.440 Yeah, and so when people are talking about the Olympia may be rivaled by Shaq, let me just put it in perspective, by The Rock.

01:00:09.260 That's an addition.

01:00:10.260 That's not a competition.

01:00:11.720 The Olympia is this, the Athleticons is going to be that, and they're working in concert with each other all under the umbrella of the IFBB Pro League.

01:00:17.520 There hasn't been a bigger Mr. Olympia contest that was attended than last year.

01:00:23.880 The prize money has never been bigger than last year.

01:00:25.740 So when people say it's diminishing, you've got to remember, I think the Mr. Olympia, the bodybuilding side, may not be as competitive.

01:00:32.760 But it was a full lineup.

01:00:34.400 You were missing who?

01:00:35.580 Big Rami. 0.54

01:00:36.340 You're missing Phil Heath.

01:00:37.300 And you're missing Sean Roden.

01:00:38.620 You're missing Kai Greene.

01:00:39.840 And yet...

01:00:40.460 That's still a lot.

01:00:41.500 That was a lot of people missing.

01:00:42.660 All-star again without LeBron, without Giannis, without any of these guys.

01:00:45.060 And it was still a sellout.

01:00:46.240 And guess what?

01:00:46.780 The people still showed up for the show.

01:00:48.880 So we didn't need them.

01:00:50.660 And what I'm saying, and that was Dan Solomon's first run at promoting the show.

01:00:53.940 What happens two to three years down the road when there's other things added?

01:00:57.260 Like I said, the Ms. Olympia is being added back in. 0.93

01:01:00.380 The classic physique seems to be taking on a life of its own.

01:01:03.980 You've got James Flex Lewis coming back to do the Open after winning two 12 titles.

01:01:09.080 That's going to make that Open division interesting.

01:01:11.800 Hadi Chupin's coming back. 0.75

01:01:13.320 He was third.

01:01:13.940 A lot of people had him even over William Bonick.

01:01:15.540 If he gets the visa.

01:01:16.080 There's a challenge.

01:01:16.820 Yeah, if he gets the visa.

01:01:17.680 But that's anticipation that people can build up on a competition for.

01:01:22.060 Not to mention, there's still the X factor.

01:01:24.720 Does Phil Heath come back or not?

01:01:26.000 People are waiting.

01:01:26.780 He hasn't said yes or no.

01:01:28.320 But I tell you what, this is a contest that you have.

01:01:30.340 He looks like he could.

01:01:31.200 You have to plan in advance.

01:01:32.960 You have to plan in advance.

01:01:34.000 But someone needs to call and say, what do we need to do to get you back?

01:01:38.500 Who, Phil?

01:01:39.400 So Phil...

01:01:40.480 No, no, no.

01:01:41.260 Someone from the brand needs to call Phil and say, what do we need to do?

01:01:46.140 Well, listen, I'll tell it like it is.

01:01:48.800 I love Phil.

01:01:50.000 Yeah.

01:01:50.580 The brand is doing just fine.

01:01:52.740 They don't need Mr.

01:01:53.880 They don't need...

01:01:54.500 Listen, the Olympia does not need Phil Heath to make the Mr. Olympia.

01:01:57.840 I'm not saying that.

01:01:59.060 Of course it doesn't.

01:02:00.520 I'm not...

01:02:00.900 Phil has to make himself a...

01:02:02.320 Did Phil go to the Olympia last year, by the way?

01:02:04.080 Let me give you an idea.

01:02:04.620 Did Phil go to the Olympia last year?

01:02:05.900 Did Phil what?

01:02:06.560 Did Phil go to the Olympia conference?

01:02:07.760 I don't think he did.

01:02:08.420 I don't think he did either.

01:02:09.200 I can tell you that unequivocally, if I was in that Olympia, as many times as he was,

01:02:14.020 and I watched every one he was in, from fifth place to second place to the seven-year first

01:02:19.080 Olympias and then the last one, the runner-up, he should have been the one handing the trophy

01:02:24.040 to the guy.

01:02:25.600 I mean, Phil should have...

01:02:26.140 Phil should have called them. 0.67

01:02:27.080 Phil should...

01:02:27.480 I don't know that anybody has...

01:02:29.220 It's like...

01:02:29.900 But you got...

01:02:30.680 But, Sean, okay, hear me out.

01:02:32.360 Who's to say that they didn't call them?

01:02:33.900 Okay, let's just say they did not, okay?

01:02:36.360 How could he miss that contest?

01:02:37.680 That's how passionate I'm like.

01:02:38.740 I never won it, but I never miss it.

01:02:40.420 How can he sit at home and watch the competition that made him who he is?

01:02:44.620 I mean, he must have had something more important.

01:02:45.920 Sean, you're quick to forget with the fact that you were calling out judges event after event after...

01:02:50.640 And I never missed a contest in 32 years.

01:02:52.540 But I understand that we're in a completely different position than he is.

01:02:55.340 This is a guy that...

01:02:56.340 I know, but as Mr. Olympia, you would think that...

01:02:59.340 As Mr. Olympia seven times, you would think that the brand would be reaching out to say,

01:03:04.200 we're grateful for you as well.

01:03:05.800 So, you know, someone did call him to find out whether or not he was coming.

01:03:10.000 He had other things to do.

01:03:11.540 You got to know the whole scope of the story.

01:03:13.680 So, was Phil waiting for the Mr. Olympia to fly a private jet out for him to come and sit

01:03:17.880 the audience?

01:03:18.280 How sensitive are you?

01:03:18.800 How sensitive are you?

01:03:19.160 I'm not sensitive.

01:03:19.820 Sean, you're sensitive.

01:03:21.180 In terms of what?

01:03:22.040 What do you mean?

01:03:22.840 Of course you're going to be sensitive.

01:03:24.540 A crazy competitor that pays attention to the details, to the body, you're sensitive because

01:03:28.260 you're a perfectionist.

01:03:29.020 I'm not sensitive in something I don't have a horse in the race.

01:03:31.640 I don't have a horse in this race.

01:03:32.800 But anybody, anybody that competes at the highest level, one of their gifts they have

01:03:37.820 is they're a little bit more sensitive to details than others.

01:03:42.800 Where other people, I'm not saying it from the side of your week, your sensitive.

01:03:46.280 I'm actually using it as a compliment.

01:03:47.620 I got guys in the, tomorrow, I'm doing my annual virtual gala, okay?

01:03:53.040 There's going to be 8,000 people watching, okay?

01:03:55.040 Yesterday, we just sent out nearly 10,000, 1099 checks around the nation, 49 says we've

01:03:59.420 got insurance agents.

01:04:00.500 So, I'm sending these checks to people.

01:04:01.880 I did my convention six months ago at Mirage.

01:04:04.800 We had President Bush here, Kobe Bryant there.

01:04:06.540 We had Jordan Peterson, all these guys at the event.

01:04:08.340 We're doing the next one at MGM Grand Arena.

01:04:10.220 We shut down the place for four days.

01:04:11.960 We're hosting it.

01:04:12.500 Special people are going to be at this event.

01:04:15.960 These guys who work their asses off, they sell on Saturdays.

01:04:21.100 They sell on Sundays.

01:04:22.260 They're running appointments on Saturday night.

01:04:24.120 They're running that additional appointment on Friday night while him and their husband

01:04:27.440 and wife can go have dinner. 1.00

01:04:28.500 They choose to go do another sale to sell an annuity or sell another insurance policy and

01:04:31.940 protect another family.

01:04:33.160 11 o'clock, you're done.

01:04:34.120 You come home.

01:04:34.540 You can't go watch a movie.

01:04:35.480 You're tired.

01:04:35.900 You go to sleep.

01:04:36.600 Boom, the next day, right?

01:04:37.440 This is stuff that you've got to do.

01:04:39.180 This is stuff you've got to do.

01:04:40.480 And one of the things I told our guys here when we started the company, and I've said

01:04:45.600 this to them every month when I do my staff meeting, very important here.

01:04:50.720 I've said it every month.

01:04:52.420 The sales team is king.

01:04:55.080 I do specific training, Sean, to tell them how to speak to a lion's.

01:04:59.100 Today we gave a girl a promotion. 1.00

01:05:00.460 She's going to have a job. 0.97

01:05:01.260 She's going to be doing something that's very important.

01:05:02.720 She got a promotion today.

01:05:03.860 I had a 45-minute meeting with her.

01:05:05.900 And our CEO was sitting, all these people were sitting.

01:05:07.960 And I said, listen, do you know how to speak to lions?

01:05:11.240 And we went through it.

01:05:12.460 I said, here's what you've got to realize about lions.

01:05:14.260 They're wired differently.

01:05:15.660 They're demanding.

01:05:16.860 They're emotional.

01:05:17.900 They're sensitive.

01:05:18.540 I understand.

01:05:18.940 They're upset.

01:05:19.580 Yeah, yeah.

01:05:19.940 You can't, I can't sit there and say, oh, you're upset at me?

01:05:23.540 It's your fault.

01:05:24.660 Yeah.

01:05:24.860 I can understand the part if a guy is lazy.

01:05:29.420 If a guy goes and does ecstasy every night and right after a show he goes and hooks up

01:05:34.360 with six girls and is just partying and that's all he cares about.

01:05:37.160 And he's using bodybuilding as a form to be able to rack up more girls and all this.

01:05:41.420 But that's not this guy.

01:05:43.080 This is a guy.

01:05:43.860 So all I'm saying is, all I'm saying is, if a Sean Ray of 03 or 01, when was this?

01:05:50.460 01.

01:05:50.860 01.

01:05:51.540 If a Sean Ray is ticked off and you're kind of pissed off and you're a demanding guy,

01:05:56.920 you're a sensitive guy, you're annoyed, you're sitting there.

01:05:58.920 But of course, there's a part of it that you were talking about the other guys.

01:06:00.960 But of course, a big part of it is also you.

01:06:02.300 You want to be Mr. Olympia.

01:06:03.240 You've given since 1988 to it.

01:06:05.160 All I'm saying is, the brand cannot say we're bigger than a seven-time Mr. Olympia, even

01:06:12.540 though it's right.

01:06:13.780 I'm not telling you it's not right.

01:06:14.880 I'm not saying that they said that.

01:06:16.420 What I'm saying from my cheap seat, okay, the Olympia will go on whether you have a seven-time

01:06:22.000 Olympia sitting in the front row or sitting at home.

01:06:24.540 No, it's not arrogant.

01:06:25.240 What I'm saying is, there's always been an open-door policy.

01:06:29.020 If Mr. Olympia is waiting for the federation, who doesn't write him a check, he was with

01:06:34.020 Weider, or yeah, he was sponsored by Weider, Weider let him go, and he won a couple Olympias

01:06:38.000 after his Weider contract was over.

01:06:40.700 If you're waiting for a phone call for an invitation to a contest of that magnitude, when you actually

01:06:45.460 know the promoter, and you can say, hey, I need five tickets, I need 10 tickets, I want

01:06:50.100 to have a booth, all of that stuff, I can't sit at home and wait for my phone to ring.

01:06:54.400 You've got to be proactive.

01:06:55.740 Are you kidding me?

01:06:56.660 The Olympia was bigger and better than it's ever been, even though Phil wasn't there.

01:07:00.800 All I'm saying is, it's bigger than any bodybuilder.

01:07:03.820 It's an institution.

01:07:05.180 I don't dispute that.

01:07:06.920 Let's say you're right.

01:07:08.480 Let's say you're right.

01:07:09.880 Let's say you're right.

01:07:12.460 Colin Kaepernick.

01:07:13.780 Go back to the issue with Colin Kaepernick.

01:07:15.480 When he knelt and he said what he said, and then everybody's like, oh my gosh, there's

01:07:20.220 another guy.

01:07:20.820 There's another guy.

01:07:21.600 There's another guy.

01:07:22.220 Domino effect.

01:07:22.780 Okay, Domino effect.

01:07:23.620 You know who I blame on the entire situation?

01:07:25.300 Guess who I blame on the entire situation?

01:07:26.360 From day one, I blame one guy.

01:07:27.780 Only one guy I blame.

01:07:28.980 Guess who it is?

01:07:30.360 Goodell?

01:07:30.860 Goodell.

01:07:31.360 Who else are you going to blame?

01:07:32.740 Listen, if the guy is trying to make a statement immediately, let's meet.

01:07:37.080 I don't know if there was a statement being made by Phil not going to the Olympia.

01:07:40.120 He might add numerous reasons why you don't go.

01:07:42.360 What I'm saying is, and by the way, Colin's not even the best guy.

01:07:45.000 Yeah.

01:07:45.340 He's not.

01:07:46.020 Me personally, I think Mr. Olympia should have that entire front row for all of the past

01:07:51.000 Mr. Olympias to be there.

01:07:52.320 That's my opinion if you're asking me.

01:07:53.860 I would go a little bit above that, but I agree with that.

01:07:55.720 I would go a little bit above that, but for me, I think to say the brand will never

01:08:02.640 be bigger or the brand will.

01:08:04.560 I had one of my guys I was talking to.

01:08:05.880 He makes a good $600,000, $700,000 a year income.

01:08:08.200 Makes good income.

01:08:08.920 Decent income.

01:08:09.360 He's not my best top five guys, top ten guys, but he's one of the guys that's doing

01:08:13.420 pretty good.

01:08:14.820 And I sat down with him one day and I said, listen, I want you to realize this.

01:08:17.780 He says, what's that?

01:08:18.520 I said, you walk around as if your block of business is going to pay you for the rest

01:08:21.980 of your life.

01:08:22.740 I said, you're walking around like you're bigger than Circuit City and Kmart.

01:08:26.040 Keep in mind, Circuit City and Kmart went out of business because they got arrogant and 0.55

01:08:29.740 cocky and Blockbuster, Circuit City and Kmart's all bigger than you are.

01:08:33.700 You're a nobody compared to those companies.

01:08:35.520 Right.

01:08:35.780 What's the point?

01:08:36.300 If boxing gets cocky thinking they're not going to lose eyeballs to UFC, Dana White is

01:08:42.700 going to come and take it over.

01:08:43.520 So to say that a rock is supplementing, you know, if, and by the way, my worry wouldn't

01:08:49.580 even be.

01:08:50.120 Complimenting.

01:08:50.500 Yeah, I said the rock is complimenting.

01:08:52.160 I don't even think rock is the one that would be my concern.

01:08:55.560 If Danny by any chance gets an itch to want to really go up, Danny can pull the strings

01:09:01.720 and do whatever she wants.

01:09:02.960 Danny Garcia.

01:09:03.620 Sure.

01:09:03.900 I'm very, and by the way, she's works very closely with the IP pro league.

01:09:07.560 I know she does.

01:09:08.220 Mind you, all of that stuff exists because of their relationship.

01:09:12.080 I know they do.

01:09:12.740 Which is good for everybody.

01:09:13.860 And for me, for me, I would like nothing more but to see the Mr. Olympia brand get

01:09:19.340 even big, bigger than what it is today.

01:09:21.440 So by the way, one of the questions I asked, I didn't get the answer.

01:09:23.720 I'm just curious to know what you were going to say to it.

01:09:25.440 Are you more, has the system and judging changed between now versus 01 and versus 88?

01:09:31.360 You know, I can't tell because we're judging totally different bodies.

01:09:35.500 You know, when I was competing, we had the top six were Hall of Fame bodybuilders.

01:09:39.080 They're all in the Hall of Fame.

01:09:40.360 All of them.

01:09:41.180 I heard you make a couple of comparisons.

01:09:44.080 We'll do that.

01:09:44.780 I think, you know what?

01:09:46.500 Brandon's in because he has an Olympia, right?

01:09:49.180 So he's in that Elite 15.

01:09:51.180 Dexter's in because he won in 2008 and he's the winningest pro bodybuilder ever.

01:09:55.400 I mean, Phil's in.

01:09:56.700 I mean, is Kai Green a Hall of Fame bodybuilder?

01:09:59.080 He got two first runner-ups at the Olympia, three first runner-ups at the Olympia, a couple of honor classics.

01:10:04.480 There might be an argument.

01:10:05.800 He's better than Eli Manning, right?

01:10:07.880 There's a stronger argument for Kai Green to be in the bodybuilding Hall of Fame.

01:10:11.620 But the lineups that we're judging now, they're judging with different criteria, man.

01:10:17.140 I mean, so I don't know how the judges are judging.

01:10:19.580 It's not something that I would want to be a part of in terms of judging.

01:10:22.500 Oh, but I think it's something you ought to give your opinion on because you have a history of doing that.

01:10:27.680 And if the concern is really the younger guys, I think you ought to do a little bit more due diligence and see how it's taking place.

01:10:34.000 And I'll give you an idea of why I think that is.

01:10:37.080 Because, okay, you look at that video.

01:10:39.800 I don't know how long.

01:10:40.460 It's like 47 minutes.

01:10:41.480 It's a good amount to watch.

01:10:44.460 And you guys are going back and forth, back and forth.

01:10:45.960 It's the only one they ever sold online.

01:10:47.740 They sold a DVD.

01:10:49.240 It's phenomenal, by the way.

01:10:50.400 I think this is very good for the sport.

01:10:51.660 But you heard what Kevin said.

01:10:53.080 Kevin's defending you.

01:10:54.280 He said something's wrong, Ronnie, when everyone's booing.

01:10:57.520 So nobody wants to see a Mr. Olympia get booed, right?

01:11:00.540 I think you were on to something.

01:11:02.860 I think you were on to something.

01:11:05.040 Because if I'm going to give my life to it, there's going to be a way that I'm being judged.

01:11:10.940 That's fair.

01:11:11.700 For example, if I go to court and the jury's going to come and go up and judge me, the jury cannot be a friend.

01:11:20.480 The jury and I cannot have dinner together.

01:11:22.480 Right.

01:11:23.620 That's what we were up against.

01:11:24.640 So that's what I'm saying.

01:11:25.760 How much has it changed?

01:11:26.540 I don't know that those judges have that same type of relationship that we had back then.

01:11:31.580 You don't think or you don't know?

01:11:32.680 I don't know.

01:11:33.320 Okay.

01:11:33.600 Because I'm not invested in it as an athlete.

01:11:36.400 I'm 19 years removed.

01:11:38.160 I know some of the judges, but I don't know all of the judges.

01:11:40.760 It's changed and evolved.

01:11:42.800 I'm not as passionate or as close to it because it doesn't directly affect me.

01:11:46.560 When I was up there on that press conference, I was being directly affected by continuous decisions to have the same staff of judges

01:11:53.240 who were friends with, notorious friends with Ronnie Coleman.

01:11:57.140 The girl I was arguing with is Ronnie Coleman's friend.

01:12:00.020 Dorian Yates' good friend was Steve Weinberger.

01:12:02.900 I think the bigger issue for these athletes is that they are not, I don't think there's enough personalities out there.

01:12:12.520 Back then, Flex had his own swag.

01:12:14.340 I had my own swag.

01:12:15.480 Dorian, however invisible he was, had his.

01:12:17.760 But we all had our own personalities.

01:12:19.940 Kevin, too.

01:12:21.260 And now it's just kind of like, there's nothing really there.

01:12:26.320 When Sean Roden won the Mr. Olympia contest, there was really nothing to, there was no groundswell of support after he won it

01:12:33.160 because you just didn't see the guy anywhere.

01:12:35.460 And I don't know if that's with the magazine demise or whatnot, but there's just not very many personalities.

01:12:40.900 Kai Greene still has a very colorful personality that he's able to capitalize on.

01:12:44.560 He's got a great personality.

01:12:45.720 And that personality can take him a lot of places.

01:12:48.780 What Brandon Curry's doing, a little bit of his, is in different ways.

01:12:52.760 He's opening his third gym, I believe.

01:12:54.680 He's talking to schools.

01:12:56.320 He's traveling around.

01:12:57.160 He's an ambassador.

01:12:57.960 He's doing everything right as Mr. Olympia.

01:12:59.900 But this coming Olympia is going to be very interesting.

01:13:03.380 I'm actually curious about it.

01:13:04.620 I had a meeting with some people from the Mr. Olympia organization about possibly doing something and showing up.

01:13:10.260 So it depends on how the scheduling will look like.

01:13:13.160 I may be attending myself.

01:13:14.320 That's what I'm saying.

01:13:15.380 It's a different animal when you're there and you're just analyzing it through.

01:13:19.760 I'm very curious.

01:13:20.660 Yeah.

01:13:20.920 I'm very curious.

01:13:21.620 So let me ask you.

01:13:22.440 Now let's talk about a completely different thing.

01:13:24.880 Transitioning more into health aspect.

01:13:27.700 The judging part.

01:13:29.160 For me, I was talking to Ron from Muscular Development.

01:13:31.400 I said, you know, concerns that you have when you see these guys that are very big.

01:13:36.180 You know, like all of a sudden one day you're getting a picture of Greg Kovacs.

01:13:40.140 This guy is bench pressing, you know, 700 pounds, 26 inch guns.

01:13:44.180 But we don't see that today.

01:13:45.220 You don't see that today.

01:13:46.460 But that would never win.

01:13:47.660 Greg Kovacs is not going to win.

01:13:48.860 Absolutely not.

01:13:49.920 It didn't win then.

01:13:51.160 I don't even know how he got his pro card.

01:13:52.320 Of course.

01:13:53.040 Of course.

01:13:53.560 But the point I'm making to you is 197, 218.

01:13:57.960 Okay?

01:13:58.820 That is a 21 pound difference in how many years of competition?

01:14:02.440 14.

01:14:02.800 That's a long time to go from 197 to 218.

01:14:06.000 Where typically that's not the case.

01:14:07.820 The increase is a lot more than 197 to 18.

01:14:09.660 Well, Flex Wheeler was 216 pounds in the 93 Arnold Classic where a lot of people thought

01:14:15.940 he was his best.

01:14:17.480 And only a couple short years later with the arrival of Dorian Yates, he was competing at

01:14:21.380 well over 245.

01:14:22.660 Okay.

01:14:23.140 He wasn't a better version of Flex Wheeler.

01:14:25.200 Perfect.

01:14:25.800 And he had all the genetics, right?

01:14:27.440 So where I'm going with this is a part of it is what judging gives points for.

01:14:32.780 What judging gives the additional upper advantage for, right?

01:14:36.560 Okay.

01:14:37.160 So now this leads me to the topic of drugs and steroids and GH and all that other stuff.

01:14:41.300 Okay?

01:14:42.120 If you, and I don't know if you did, but based on some of the research I did, did you and

01:14:47.480 Chad Nichols ever do anything together?

01:14:49.080 Absolutely not.

01:14:49.860 Okay.

01:14:50.320 So, so, so I know there's more followers.

01:14:52.460 He's Dr. Kevorkian to me, bro.

01:14:53.640 Okay.

01:14:54.060 So even if he did get close to you, you would have never taken his counsel?

01:14:57.460 He tried.

01:14:58.020 He tried to.

01:14:58.680 In 1996, I went to guest post for him, took me to dinner, and he asked me if I needed

01:15:03.700 any help.

01:15:04.540 I just got second place to Dorian Yates.

01:15:06.480 No, I don't need your help.

01:15:07.320 I don't even know you, first of all, and I've done it all myself.

01:15:10.260 And I think that's where we started to butt heads.

01:15:12.780 I flatly refused any help from him.

01:15:15.120 And then he went on to say a few years later that if I had his help, maybe I could have

01:15:19.500 been Mr. Olympia, which is nonsense because, of course, you had Nasser in 97 and Flex Wheeler

01:15:24.180 and Kevin Varoni that were getting second places towards the end.

01:15:26.960 But Chad's got blood all over his hands, man.

01:15:29.120 I mean, Ronnie Coleman will defend him to the ninth degree, but he was in that bathtub near

01:15:33.340 death in 2001 at the direction of Chad Nichols, who's not a doctor, by the way.

01:15:39.440 There's at least five deaths.

01:15:40.820 Don Youngblood, Nasser El-Simbadi, Dallas McCarver, and a few other people that he's

01:15:47.020 had his relationships with as a bodybuilding coach that are dead and in the ground, and

01:15:52.360 he hadn't gone to one funeral.

01:15:54.960 Don Long, no kidneys.

01:15:56.700 He hadn't gone to one funeral.

01:15:57.720 No, not one.

01:15:58.740 These are people he worked with.

01:16:00.680 Didn't go to funerals.

01:16:02.080 Don Long doesn't have kidneys.

01:16:04.380 He was working with Chad Nichols.

01:16:05.960 Flex Wheeler, kidney.

01:16:07.640 He's working with Chad Nichols.

01:16:08.640 Tom Pritz, kidney.

01:16:10.880 When I say kidney, I'm talking about transplants.

01:16:13.280 Chad Nichols.

01:16:13.880 Those are the ones we know about.

01:16:16.000 So what does that say about a guy that works with all these guys in this camp?

01:16:19.480 I competed against all those guys.

01:16:20.840 Me and Kevin Varoni and Milos Archev refused to have anything to do with Chad Nichols, and

01:16:25.000 that's probably why we're still healthy in here.

01:16:27.160 But everyone that he was working with that was in that camp, they're all jacked up.

01:16:30.660 Paul Gillette got smart and got the hell out.

01:16:32.320 But he still had a couple of hernia surgeries.

01:16:36.140 But how does that happen?

01:16:37.020 You have all of those top-notch athletes.

01:16:38.940 Ronnie Coleman's, in 2001, my last Olympia, Ronnie was getting ready to go to the emergency

01:16:43.760 room.

01:16:44.580 Thank God he was thrown into a bathtub.

01:16:46.360 Who's thrown into a bathtub full of ice the night before you're competing?

01:16:50.080 Who's guzzling a gallon of water to try to revitalize yourself because you feel like

01:16:54.900 you're dying and your coach is sitting there next to you?

01:16:57.480 I mean, Michael Jackson died with his doctor in his room.

01:17:00.960 So I never would give somebody that kind of control over what I'm doing with my body,

01:17:06.080 especially when they're not certified doctors.

01:17:09.040 I interviewed Tom Prince recently.

01:17:11.020 He's going through dialysis.

01:17:12.580 He looks like he's near death.

01:17:13.880 He can't be 175 pounds.

01:17:16.220 And he's defended.

01:17:17.500 He said if he had to do it again, Chad Nichols is a good friend.

01:17:20.920 He would do it again.

01:17:21.980 I said if you didn't have Chad Nichols, you probably would be healthy.

01:17:24.140 Me and him, it's no mistake that we're not friends.

01:17:27.480 And he was in the enemy camp.

01:17:28.740 In 1998, they were instituting diuretic testing.

01:17:32.540 And Kevin and I were asking for a blood test because we knew that Chad was going to show

01:17:37.380 up in 98.

01:17:38.240 This is when it's open.

01:17:39.360 Anybody can win.

01:17:41.000 We wanted it to be blood tested instead of piss test because we knew Chad had some plasma

01:17:45.720 expander, including Milos Archev, who wasn't in the Olympia.

01:17:48.840 We were trying to go so far as to keep Chad away from the athletes meeting, to keep him 0.99

01:17:53.280 away from the damn show altogether. 0.98

01:17:54.880 Flex Wheeler wanted to fight me. 0.99

01:17:56.960 Kevin LeVroni, after the press conference, took his jacket off.

01:17:59.820 He was sweating so much water.

01:18:01.180 He wanted to tear Chad Nichols a new hole because he didn't want Chad Nichols anywhere near

01:18:05.100 that competition.

01:18:06.360 And of course, Ronnie won the show.

01:18:08.500 Flex was second.

01:18:09.700 I think Kevin was third.

01:18:11.020 I know I was fifth place that year.

01:18:12.160 That's when I tried to come in heavier because I felt it was a wide open show.

01:18:15.440 I got to put on some, so I came in about five pounds too heavy, but nonetheless, I never

01:18:20.260 let that die because Chad Nichols left a wake of bodies in his path and he's like a state

01:18:25.320 chairman and he runs competitions and he's not a friend of mine.

01:18:30.040 And I would have had more respect for him had he gone to some funerals.

01:18:32.680 I mean, Don Youngblood was a good friend of mine.

01:18:35.340 He was mutual friends with my buddy Dan English out of Arkansas.

01:18:39.100 So I don't endorse any of his practices, but you'll find he's got a very loyal following.

01:18:43.900 He does have a very loyal following.

01:18:45.460 Yeah, he was working with Dallas McCarver.

01:18:46.800 When he started working with Dallas McCarver, I said Dallas has six months to live.

01:18:49.640 He died eight months later.

01:18:51.080 So I have a reason to be pissed.

01:18:53.020 I'm not prophetic.

01:18:54.060 I'm not Nostradamus, but I know danger when I see it.

01:18:57.020 And I knew that guy was dangerous back in the 90s.

01:18:59.480 So let me ask you this.

01:19:00.440 Let me ask you this.

01:19:01.100 I got my second video to show you here.

01:19:03.680 And the second video, I think you kind of have an idea what the video is going to be.

01:19:07.220 This is the second video, okay?

01:19:10.600 You know what's about to happen in about 11 seconds.

01:19:13.000 I'm at the mic.

01:19:14.800 Okay.

01:19:15.480 I was emceeing this competition.

01:19:16.700 You were emceeing this event.

01:19:17.760 I tried to approach Dallas for an interview prior to him going on stage.

01:19:21.280 Was he feeling?

01:19:22.080 He said, get the hell away from me.

01:19:23.320 I'm not talking to you.

01:19:24.620 Before he walked on this stage, 10 minutes before he walked out there, get away from me.

01:19:28.840 I'm not talking to you.

01:19:29.520 I was on assignment for muscular development.

01:19:31.940 I said, why are you not talking to me? 0.99

01:19:33.060 He says, because you were talking shit earlier in the year. 0.98

01:19:35.460 Probably two or three months before that, when he was working with Chad, he went and posed 0.99

01:19:42.500 for Jim Mannion.

01:19:43.840 And he wanted to get a look two weeks out from the Arnold, Ohio.

01:19:46.600 This is the Arnold in Australia.

01:19:49.180 Dallas went up to Pittsburgh and posed for Jim Mannion.

01:19:51.580 Bent over.

01:19:52.400 He was cramping.

01:19:53.280 He was pale white.

01:19:54.520 He looked like he was in distress.

01:19:55.980 But they videotaped it and put it online.

01:19:58.300 I looked at it and analyzed it.

01:19:59.920 And I said, who does that?

01:20:00.940 Like, who would ever go in front of, I would never go in front of Joe Weider, totally pale,

01:20:06.080 bent over, can't hold my front double bicep, can't hold my stomach in.

01:20:09.380 What kind of analysis was he expecting?

01:20:12.060 He didn't like what I had to say.

01:20:13.820 He was working with Chad Nichols and a couple other people.

01:20:16.480 He took it personal.

01:20:17.500 He went in and I said, despite all of that, in three weeks time, he's going to be fighting

01:20:21.440 for first place against Cedric McMillan.

01:20:23.100 He got second place.

01:20:24.680 Two weeks later, the guy gets carried off the stage and is throwing up.

01:20:27.780 I was standing on the other side of the stage when they brought him back there with the

01:20:31.080 EMTs.

01:20:32.280 I wasn't gloating in his demise, but I knew then he's in distress for one reason.

01:20:38.480 The things that he was doing.

01:20:39.600 He was being fast-tracked.

01:20:40.980 Taking too much too soon.

01:20:42.620 Didn't want to hear the brutal honest truth.

01:20:44.280 I said he should have shut it down after that contest.

01:20:47.540 Two months after that show, he went up and guest pose at the Emerald Cup weighing about

01:20:50.820 315 pounds.

01:20:52.420 So he didn't shut it down.

01:20:53.900 He actually accelerated.

01:20:54.860 He went from dieted down on stage to putting on another probably 40 pounds, guest posing

01:21:00.040 straight into the ground.

01:21:02.640 He could have been prevented.

01:21:03.760 So let me ask you this.

01:21:05.320 Here's some of the bodybuilders that have passed away.

01:21:07.680 Dallas McCarver, Rich Piana, Andrus Munser, Mohammed Benaziza, Greg Kovacs, Matarazzo, Comerford,

01:21:16.060 Al-Sambati, Artwood, Charles Doerr, Hillebrand, Menser, both of them brothers, Ray and Mike,

01:21:22.240 Ross, Youngblood, you know these names.

01:21:24.120 Matt Duvall.

01:21:24.840 Matt Duvall.

01:21:25.840 And there's many names.

01:21:26.640 I don't want to go through all of them.

01:21:27.640 You know the names.

01:21:28.020 I know all of them.

01:21:29.000 How many of these could have been prevented?

01:21:32.980 You can't save someone from themselves.

01:21:35.160 No, no, no, no.

01:21:35.980 Here's what I mean by it.

01:21:37.080 And I'm going in a part to help with an element of bodybuilding that's uncomfortable to talk

01:21:42.020 about.

01:21:42.160 This is what I mean by it.

01:21:43.140 I'm not saying you can't prevent somebody from doing it.

01:21:46.480 They're doing it because they feel the doing part could potentially help them have an edge

01:21:50.820 over their competitors, right?

01:21:52.320 But how much of it has to do with going and doing too much dosage of the steroids, the

01:21:58.860 diet, whatever it is, the GH, the PEDs, how much could that have been prevented?

01:22:03.140 Well, we can say the same about wrestling.

01:22:05.060 Probably say the same thing about football when you start getting to the brass tacks.

01:22:08.760 We don't know what any of these guys are taking.

01:22:10.920 I can't paint them with the same brush.

01:22:13.240 You hear the word steroids, you think a needle and a syringe, but there's a lot of different

01:22:17.580 types of steroids.

01:22:18.420 It's these guys, some of them I would attribute probably insulin.

01:22:22.260 I'd probably attribute some of the growth hormone.

01:22:25.100 There's use and abuse and nobody's smarter than the next, but you know, our sport is made

01:22:29.320 up of a lot of misfits.

01:22:30.540 We come in with a lot of baggage, bigorexia, anorexia.

01:22:34.160 Some of the guys think if a little bit's good, a little bit more is better.

01:22:37.300 Some may have some predisposed conditions that exist that might get exacerbated by growth

01:22:44.180 hormones, speed up the process. 1.00

01:22:45.420 We know that Muncer, probably diuretics. 0.99

01:22:49.640 Vince Comerford's dead, but he was over the age of 50 when he died and he was a notorious

01:22:53.180 drug user.

01:22:54.860 Paul DeMeo, a huge drug user.

01:22:57.920 So we don't know the habits of these bodybuilders, whether they cycled on or cycled off.

01:23:02.580 But I can tell you the ones that are there, I think the one commonality is we would all

01:23:07.560 agree that they're probably abusers, not users.

01:23:10.340 And there's a big difference.

01:23:11.900 I can drink a beer and I'm fine.

01:23:13.520 You might not be able to stop at one.

01:23:14.920 You need three or four.

01:23:16.220 And then you're either the life of the party, you're throwing up, or you want to fight everybody

01:23:19.780 in the room.

01:23:20.740 It's the same alcohol.

01:23:21.740 It just has a different effect on your height, weight, and your shape.

01:23:24.360 The bodybuilders, when it comes down to pharmacology, are combining all kinds of stuff.

01:23:28.760 A lot of them are working with trainers that have no idea.

01:23:31.680 Getting a blood test isn't the end-all, beat-all for taking steroids.

01:23:35.940 There's use and abuse.

01:23:37.460 Just because you have a Ferrari doesn't mean you have to drive 200 miles an hour.

01:23:40.700 And if you do, we could pretty much bet it's a matter of time.

01:23:45.780 With a lot of these bodybuilders, when you have the means and the access, and you have

01:23:49.540 people pushing you, you don't even know the filter.

01:23:52.280 I remember, I saw you interview Ronnie Coleman.

01:23:54.360 I don't think Ronnie Coleman probably even, he was taking stuff he didn't even know he

01:23:57.640 was taking.

01:23:58.900 Chad Nichols was giving him whatever he wanted to give him.

01:24:01.260 Whatever it was.

01:24:02.940 He didn't know what it was.

01:24:04.920 So high-level athletes with high intelligence are willing to do whatever it takes.

01:24:10.500 So you're going to have this list.

01:24:11.960 But this is a very small list by comparison to the millions of weightlifters and the thousands

01:24:17.480 of professionals.

01:24:19.580 So there's going to be a casualty.

01:24:21.360 I'm going to complete a front angle.

01:24:22.600 Go ahead.

01:24:22.860 Than where you think I'm going.

01:24:23.640 This is the angle I'm taking right now.

01:24:25.580 The angle I'm taking is, you said Samir Benut.

01:24:29.220 You said in one of the interviews, you said, the one guy that I would be afraid of going

01:24:33.200 on stage is in 1983.

01:24:35.540 Because you beat him in an 88 or 89, but the 83 one, right?

01:24:39.140 You said you'd be afraid to go up against that guy.

01:24:40.720 Scary.

01:24:41.260 Hey, look at that guy.

01:24:42.860 Beautiful body.

01:24:43.900 Just a godlike figure.

01:24:46.220 Very complete.

01:24:47.360 Dickerson, you know.

01:24:48.700 I would have beat Dickerson, but he was a mentor of mine.

01:24:51.200 He had a good physique.

01:24:52.520 Labrada, Gasparri, some of these guys.

01:24:54.660 Okay, good physiques that they have. 0.90

01:24:56.260 You, good physique.

01:24:57.300 But today, do you have any health problems?

01:24:59.720 Yeah, absolutely none.

01:25:00.720 Absolutely not.

01:25:01.300 That's the point I'm making.

01:25:02.160 So the point I'm trying to make to you is, it doesn't mean you didn't do steroids.

01:25:05.060 I mean, obviously Arnold Classic in 1991, the first time, two weeks later, they took it

01:25:08.260 away from you and they gave, 1990, and they gave it to you, the one scene where he comes

01:25:11.800 up and he says, I'm really the winner, which was kind of funny.

01:25:14.560 I respect him.

01:25:15.340 Yeah, but the point is, you took first place.

01:25:17.980 Right.

01:25:18.260 Two weeks later, they did that.

01:25:20.020 And then it was what it was.

01:25:21.220 You don't hear a lot of times about drug testing with the guys at the top, even though everybody

01:25:25.120 knows everyone's using it.

01:25:26.860 This is the point I'm trying to make on how I went from judging to this, okay?

01:25:32.340 If the brand is saying, like NBA today is saying what?

01:25:38.540 Steph Cree, two-time MVP, okay?

01:25:40.840 Steve Nash, two-time MVP.

01:25:44.180 Go back.

01:25:45.280 Shaq, Wilt, Russell.

01:25:47.480 Giants.

01:25:47.820 So everybody wants to be center.

01:25:49.020 You know, you want to be this guy.

01:25:50.320 David Robinson, you know, Akeem, you know, Ewing, all these guys.

01:25:53.820 No one cares about these centers, right?

01:25:55.200 Okay, so it's a different game today.

01:25:56.520 It's Anthony Davis, Giannis.

01:25:58.240 It's a complete different kind of a game.

01:25:59.900 It's finesse.

01:26:00.020 But a part of it is on the player, and a part of it is on what the brand is also building

01:26:06.500 up, right?

01:26:07.360 So in the judges' part, why don't they sit there and say, look, if there's anything with

01:26:12.800 any gut we see, like, it's massive point reduction.

01:26:16.700 They did.

01:26:17.320 They did it with Phil Heath.

01:26:18.220 That's why he lost to Mr. Olympia.

01:26:19.740 But I'm going back with it right now to move forward.

01:26:22.420 In the 90s?

01:26:23.080 Yeah.

01:26:23.320 I'm going back, and then I'm going forward, right?

01:26:25.300 Because a lot of these guys pass away.

01:26:26.540 They're not today.

01:26:27.040 These guys are a byproduct of what happened in the 90s.

01:26:28.920 Most of these names are not today's names.

01:26:31.120 A lot of these names, except for a couple of them are recent, but, you know, Piana was

01:26:35.080 a couple of years ago.

01:26:35.840 Most of them are the 90s guys, right?

01:26:38.580 What if the judging comes back and says, here's what we're going to be doing.

01:26:42.080 You know, Calvin Klein models for a decade.

01:26:45.840 You thought you had to be 90 pounds and, you know, you're looking like, you know what I'm

01:26:50.200 talking about.

01:26:50.780 And it was nothing attractive about it.

01:26:52.780 Right.

01:26:53.020 But Calvin Klein made everybody think, that's sexy, right?

01:26:56.580 And 60 years ago, sexy was Marilyn Monroe, voluptuous, you know, nice, with the thighs 1.00

01:27:03.900 and butt and thick and 145 pounds. 0.56

01:27:07.040 We got the wellness division coming.

01:27:08.840 And now we have Kim Kardashian, right?

01:27:11.420 What I'm saying is, to not get the black eye, do you think the Mr. Olympia brand needs to

01:27:17.400 go and kind of start recognizing certain other behaviors?

01:27:20.740 Well, they are.

01:27:21.480 Aren't they with classic physique? 0.99

01:27:23.200 I mean, Breon Ansley and Chris Bumstead that was highly contested.

01:27:26.180 Brandon Curry is not a 250-pound monster.

01:27:28.500 That's what I'm saying.

01:27:29.140 I actually, no, no, I'm with you there.

01:27:30.820 So I'm going to the part of saying with the judging side that if Mr. Olympia goes to kind

01:27:37.560 of build up some guys that have your kind of a physique and not pressuring the field to

01:27:42.100 want to go to the next size and want to bulk up a little bit more, and they kind of bring

01:27:46.360 up that phase.

01:27:47.420 Well, I think we've got to be mindful.

01:27:48.920 There are no Sean Rays. 0.85

01:27:50.120 There are no Labradas.

01:27:51.400 I mean, Brandon Curry doesn't fit into that category.

01:27:54.300 But why is that, though?

01:27:55.100 William Boenick doesn't.

01:27:56.500 Hadi Chupin doesn't.

01:27:57.380 I mean, the gene pool is just not there.

01:28:00.220 I mean, I'm a teenage national champion.

01:28:01.800 Lee Haney was a teen national champion.

01:28:03.540 Jake Cutler was a teen national champion.

01:28:05.880 Dennis Newman.

01:28:06.640 I mean, the guys that had that pedigree are just not there.

01:28:10.180 I mean, you got Johnny Jackson coming out at 49 years old.

01:28:13.920 Dexter's 50 years old.

01:28:15.020 These guys are, I guarantee, if you take the average age of these guys in the Olympia,

01:28:19.140 they're 35 years plus.

01:28:20.900 When I was coming up, I mean, Lee Haney retired at 31 years old with eight Olympias.

01:28:24.960 I got out at 35 years old.

01:28:26.520 Crazy.

01:28:27.400 So the gene pool, it's a different era, man.

01:28:31.200 And right now, in 2020, and it's barely starting, we don't see that next Phil Heath coming up.

01:28:36.580 But there's always one, right?

01:28:38.060 Brandon Curry's not new.

01:28:39.720 He's been here for a minute.

01:28:40.840 He just, he's arrived.

01:28:42.520 And it's a matter of attrition.

01:28:43.920 Because, again, if you throw in Phil, you throw in Big Rami, you throw in Phil Heath,

01:28:48.140 I'm sorry, Kai Green, maybe Brandon's not Mr. Olympia.

01:28:51.240 But he is, because he showed up.

01:28:54.360 This year, there's no guarantee that he doesn't get injured on the way, and we could wind up

01:28:57.800 with somebody.

01:28:58.280 I just couldn't imagine William Bonick being Mr. Olympia, in terms of all of the guys that

01:29:02.640 are Mr. Olympia.

01:29:03.840 And then you would have a William Bonick.

01:29:05.240 It just didn't sound right.

01:29:06.600 It didn't seem right.

01:29:07.280 It didn't look right.

01:29:08.140 Although Brandon Curry fit in there based on what he was sized up against.

01:29:13.220 I think we've got to get to a point where, you know, I don't think Mr. Olympia will ever

01:29:17.540 be, not be the main attraction of the Olympia weekend.

01:29:20.900 But we've got to accept that that title could change hands every single year moving forward.

01:29:25.300 That reign of seven and eight, there's nobody with, number one, the youth or the look that's

01:29:30.580 coming up to do that kind of dominance that Phil Heath had, Ronnie Coleman and Jay Cutler.

01:29:35.800 If you're 22 today, would you go the same route with Mr. Olympia?

01:29:39.240 I would, because it's a numbers game.

01:29:40.540 Listen, I loved bodybuilding.

01:29:42.160 I wouldn't do it for free.

01:29:43.640 I mean, Ronnie comes from a different elk.

01:29:45.400 If that prize money is what it is, I'm in it because I would have the potential and

01:29:49.880 I would think I could beat what's there.

01:29:51.800 I think what's there now is more beatable than when I started.

01:29:54.920 When I started, I mean, what was there, I was like, Greek gods.

01:29:58.860 I mean, and you had to, it ran the gamut.

01:30:00.780 Mind you, Lee Labrata was getting second and Rich Gaspari was getting second.

01:30:05.400 So on one hand, it was unfathomable that I could be there.

01:30:08.660 And on the other hand, it was realistic that if I keep doing what I'm doing, I could be there.

01:30:11.600 And I woke up one day and I was there.

01:30:13.360 When I heard Lee Labrata announced in third place and Sean Ray in second in 94, I mean, I arrived.

01:30:18.280 I actually beat him in 93.

01:30:19.320 For me, that was my small Olympia victory because I held Labrata in such high esteem the way I held Bob Paris.

01:30:26.120 Now, if we saw somebody come out looking like Bob Paris today, I would plug him right in there.

01:30:31.380 I mean, that would be somebody you can get behind and change the entire look of the Mr. Olympia weekend.

01:30:36.020 If you had a Bob Paris-like physique, six foot tall, 230 pounds, not overtly muscular, not really grainy and hard.

01:30:44.460 We just got caught up in an era where the bar was just being raised so high.

01:30:48.420 And even during my time, Lee Haney was the only one to finish his career, I think, better than when he started.

01:30:55.220 His last Olympia in 91, he could sail off into the sunset.

01:30:59.080 Dorian Yates, you needed a wheelchair for him.

01:31:02.100 Ronnie Coleman, he's kind of sloppy at the end.

01:31:05.480 Phil Heath was not what he was when he started his reign.

01:31:08.740 So these bodybuilders, they don't get better.

01:31:11.300 They typically get worse.

01:31:13.080 Dexter's found a way to kind of be consistently consistent, but he's nowhere near the 2008 Dexter Jackson.

01:31:19.520 He's got a page out of your playbook.

01:31:21.200 He's found a way to maximize what he has without trying to blow it all out.

01:31:26.540 How's his health?

01:31:28.040 That's a question for Dexter because I wouldn't know.

01:31:31.500 What I mean by that is did Chad get a hold of him or no?

01:31:34.680 He's always worked with Charles Glass.

01:31:36.860 He's had various George Farah.

01:31:39.720 He's worked with people that I think are respectable because Charles isn't a guru.

01:31:43.000 He's a coach.

01:31:43.720 He's a trainer.

01:31:44.560 He's a legend.

01:31:46.100 Chad is a guru that doesn't have the medical background, and I don't have the respect for him.

01:31:50.960 His wife was a four-time Miss Olympia that he dried out nicely. 0.95

01:31:53.760 She was the game changer on the female side of things because he dried her out. 1.00

01:31:57.520 Ronnie Coleman didn't win the Olympia because he got big.

01:32:00.560 Ronnie Coleman dried out through whatever protocols Chad put him on.

01:32:04.100 You saw him in 98.

01:32:04.920 He was never that dry in his whole career.

01:32:07.560 That's why he leapfrogged over everyone, and then everyone wanted to jump onto that bandwagon.

01:32:12.180 He got some people, but me and Kevin Laverone stayed true to our own independence, and we

01:32:16.080 did our own thing.

01:32:16.780 Yeah, I'm curious in what direction because the judging dictates what they get points for.

01:32:21.440 That's all I'm saying.

01:32:22.060 Yes, it does.

01:32:22.440 I think the judging dictates what direction the talent's going to do.

01:32:25.240 When you say we don't have a pool of genetics like we did, obviously the genetics are there.

01:32:30.240 The level of inspiration to want to get a guy like that to want to come out and compete may not be there because they may take a different route.

01:32:36.820 So I don't know what's going to happen.

01:32:39.360 I don't know what they do with the judging side.

01:32:41.960 The only thing I'm thinking when I'm looking at these names here, is there a way to prevent more of these things happening?

01:32:46.580 Because this is a black eye for the brand.

01:32:48.300 That's not something that you can prevent because no one is in there with these guys except themselves.

01:32:53.260 And only they know their limitations.

01:32:55.160 Maybe they don't know their limitations, but these guys are dying of diuretics. 0.93

01:32:58.800 They're dying of overuse of growth hormone and insulin combined, and they're also doing recreational drugs.

01:33:04.600 We're going to have that.

01:33:05.620 Just like rock and roll, when Prince died, whoever saw that coming?

01:33:09.380 What are some of the common, you know, the common for the person that doesn't follow this stuff, that hasn't read the steroids Bible, version 1, 2, 3, 4, or ageless man, or any of this stuff, right?

01:33:18.700 Never read one of them.

01:33:19.860 You've never read one of them?

01:33:20.860 None of them.

01:33:21.180 So you're not the guy that studies side effects of steroids?

01:33:23.720 I can't tell you what a dianabol will do versus anivar. 1.00

01:33:28.460 So you never did the research before you started taking them?

01:33:30.920 I pretty much, through trial and error, learned what was good for Sean Ray.

01:33:35.020 Wow, and you're healthy.

01:33:35.740 Yes.

01:33:36.520 And you're healthy.

01:33:37.180 No issues not there.

01:33:37.700 And I couldn't tell you how many calories are on a potato.

01:33:39.900 I couldn't tell you how many grams of food I eat.

01:33:42.240 I never measured anything.

01:33:43.200 I don't know how big my arms are.

01:33:44.640 I couldn't care less how big my waist is.

01:33:46.480 The only reason I knew my weight was because typically there's a scale on the day of the show.

01:33:50.560 But I didn't monitor my progress on the scale.

01:33:53.880 Like Ronnie said, he said something like, he didn't have mirrors.

01:33:56.600 The mirror was my best friend.

01:33:57.640 I consider myself an artist.

01:33:59.280 I needed that mirror.

01:34:00.660 I wasn't going to go in there and out-muscle Dorian Yates.

01:34:02.920 I needed to make sure that I was hitting my poses right.

01:34:05.620 I took a page out of La Brada.

01:34:07.220 I took a page out of Mohamed McAway.

01:34:09.400 I took a page out of Chris Dickerson and Bob Paris.

01:34:11.640 I was a physique artist.

01:34:12.720 I never considered myself to be a bodybuilder because I wasn't building to get big.

01:34:17.720 Nor was I using anabolics to get big. 0.98

01:34:21.100 I was training twice a day, two and three hours at a time, eat, sleeping, and training.

01:34:25.300 I knew exactly what they did.

01:34:26.640 I studied up on them.

01:34:27.500 But I couldn't give you my protocol and say, here, try this.

01:34:31.800 I would never give advice to someone to take something.

01:34:34.340 You're not going to find me talking about direction on how to use anabolics with anybody because I just don't have the wealth of knowledge, let alone on the nutrition side.

01:34:44.140 I was not a guy that was scientific.

01:34:46.300 Like Dorian said, he wrote all his stuff down.

01:34:47.840 So you're pure genetics.

01:34:49.940 Genetics and talent.

01:34:50.820 I can't explain it.

01:34:52.400 It's like I know for a fact Shaquille O'Neal is probably the crappiest free throw shooter in the history of the game.

01:34:57.520 But you know he probably shot a million free throws in practice.

01:35:00.840 He just couldn't get it down, right?

01:35:02.760 Whereas we could see you could always bank on somebody like Steph Curry to hit that free throw to win the game.

01:35:09.480 He could do it with his eyes closed.

01:35:10.580 Go B2.

01:35:11.620 For me, I just go into the gym.

01:35:13.740 I lift weights and stuff happens.

01:35:16.480 Let me ask you, how close were you to Craig Titus?

01:35:18.560 I was always curious on how he was as an individual.

01:35:21.100 I think I showed him where to buy his house.

01:35:23.480 I was there with him when he met his wife Kelly in Michigan.

01:35:27.920 And he had good intentions at times, but you can't get out of your own way when you have an ego that big.

01:35:34.840 I mean, we butted heads because just with the athlete's rep thing, I was trying to get some changes he wanted to do.

01:35:41.360 He always had the brighter, bigger idea.

01:35:43.380 So he had an alpha male personality.

01:35:45.220 He was a hothead.

01:35:45.900 I never saw him get in a fight.

01:35:47.140 Of course, he called me out a couple of times, wanted to fight me.

01:35:50.060 But if anybody was going to say, who's going to do something this crazy to this degree that Craig Titus did, I think all the bodybuilders probably would have said Craig's capable.

01:35:57.920 So you knew he was capable of doing something like that?

01:36:01.300 Yeah, and you know what?

01:36:01.840 At the end of his career, he wasn't hyped up on steroids.

01:36:04.560 He was using drugs, man.

01:36:05.900 I mean, I think most people would say he was probably a drug addict at the time.

01:36:08.740 I mean, I went to the USA that year that that happened. 0.99

01:36:11.060 He's standing outside the USA smoking a cigarette, didn't give a crap, ghostly white, pale. 0.99

01:36:16.460 I mean, he was fully into his recreational drugs. 0.99

01:36:19.460 And I think that whole murder thing happened under the veil of a drug-induced stupor that he probably still can't even believe it actually happened because he was way out of it.

01:36:30.520 That can happen in any sport.

01:36:31.880 I'm just trying to see if there's anything.

01:36:33.080 We weren't close.

01:36:33.580 Okay, got it.

01:36:36.580 Backstage stories.

01:36:37.940 So, you know, Kevin says a story about you.

01:36:40.040 I had dinner with him last night.

01:36:41.560 Yeah, dinner with him last night.

01:36:42.760 By the way, I always liked his physique.

01:36:46.060 The Army had pictures on the wall.

01:36:47.320 Well, I always liked Kevin had a very different kind of a physique.

01:36:51.560 I mean, I don't know, you know, I actually can't say another physique that matches Kevin's physique.

01:36:57.160 It was very different of a physique he had.

01:36:59.960 But he told a story one time.

01:37:01.420 He says backstage, he's dehydrated, and he's talking to you, and he says,

01:37:05.620 Hey, Sean, listen, man, I need some, can you give me some of those orange slice?

01:37:10.420 Yeah.

01:37:10.840 And they're like, no, I'm not giving you orange slice.

01:37:12.180 You go get your own, right?

01:37:13.080 So he said there's a different madness with Sean behind closed doors when it's competition,

01:37:19.740 when you're competing against each other.

01:37:21.360 Do you have any crazy stories against other guys like a Yates or a Ronnie or a Haney or

01:37:26.640 any of those stories that you have?

01:37:28.540 Yeah, no, there was nothing crazy about showing up backstage at the Olympia.

01:37:32.380 Listen, I mean, I walk in there, and it's like this.

01:37:35.500 This is what I'm looking at.

01:37:36.820 I'm 5'7", 210 pounds, but I got to stand next to what, that's what they look like.

01:37:43.080 It was very intimidating to think that I've got to ignore them on stage.

01:37:47.480 I didn't, you're not going to, I tried to squeeze in a couple of pose downs and got muscled out.

01:37:51.380 I mean, elbows flying.

01:37:53.920 Flex Wheeler almost knocked me off the stage because I tried to duck underneath.

01:37:57.580 Yeah.

01:37:57.780 So I felt like I was in a washing machine, and Ronnie Coleman and Kevin, these guys are

01:38:02.320 like, you know, in my mind, they're like raging, fighting for the real estate.

01:38:07.420 But there was, this was big business, man.

01:38:10.200 I mean, we weren't, we were more sociable offstage.

01:38:14.180 Backstage, it was more like a church.

01:38:15.740 You know, you just do your meditation and you do your thing.

01:38:18.320 I didn't have to meditate.

01:38:19.340 I got there.

01:38:19.840 I was full of energy.

01:38:20.980 I was, this is what I trained for.

01:38:22.380 It's what I live for.

01:38:23.100 It's like game day for me.

01:38:24.480 I never felt near death.

01:38:25.820 I didn't cramp up, but I only had one cramp in my life in a bodybuilding show in 92 in

01:38:30.340 Helsinki, Finland.

01:38:31.740 I tried to dry out because it's a transatlantic flight, and I tried to dry it, and I just

01:38:35.100 dried out a little bit too much.

01:38:36.280 I cramped up in my hamstring very briefly.

01:38:38.380 But I never felt, one, that I didn't have a shot at winning, and two, that this is a

01:38:44.680 miserable experience.

01:38:45.140 Never felt.

01:38:45.920 I always thought that on any given day, I could be Mr. Olympia, which is what got me out of

01:38:49.640 bed.

01:38:50.160 I never showed up at the Olympia except for the one time when I came in heavy in 98.

01:38:54.000 I thought I spilled over a little bit. 0.99

01:38:56.020 I'm like, shit. 1.00

01:38:56.560 You're five pounds? 1.00

01:38:57.240 Yeah, I was five pounds.

01:38:58.000 But I felt that like the day before the Olympia.

01:39:00.560 Every Olympia I went in, I felt like I was a competitor except 1988, my first one, my rookie

01:39:05.120 year.

01:39:06.080 That was just way too busy to even be a competitor.

01:39:08.400 But I was the biggest fan of bodybuilding in my first Olympia that it didn't matter that

01:39:12.740 I wasn't in the hunt.

01:39:13.780 But every year after that, from 90 to 2001, you can believe I went in there thinking I

01:39:18.580 was going to win.

01:39:20.020 You ever gone into a fight with any of these guys?

01:39:22.320 No, I mean, listen, bodybuilders are like cats.

01:39:25.860 They make a lot of noise, but they don't necessarily deliver.

01:39:28.900 I pushed a lot of buttons.

01:39:30.360 Trust me.

01:39:30.740 Lee Haney is one guy whose buttons you couldn't push.

01:39:32.860 I mean, he was like the old man of the bunch, even though he's not that old.

01:39:36.720 But Dorian wasn't someone you wanted to stare down.

01:39:39.420 You know, Dorian was a team that you saw him walk by.

01:39:42.140 You knew he was coming through a wide load.

01:39:44.900 I almost got in a beef with one of his trainers at the time backstage in 96 with Weinberger.

01:39:49.680 But it's because Weinberger was in a room helping Mr. Olympia warm up and we were all out to

01:39:54.660 fend for ourselves.

01:39:55.380 But I never had any issues on game day.

01:39:58.100 Interesting.

01:39:58.580 Yeah.

01:39:58.760 Yeah.

01:39:58.940 Dorian seems like the stoic guy that doesn't say a lot and his look is just going to make

01:40:02.560 you think.

01:40:03.080 Yeah.

01:40:03.280 And you know what?

01:40:03.820 As much as people want to pit us against each other, I never knew Dorian until we were done.

01:40:07.800 And when we were done, like he retired in 97, my last Olympia, I guest posed for him in

01:40:12.980 2001.

01:40:13.700 But we actually guest posed together in 1988.

01:40:15.880 So I saw him coming.

01:40:17.640 He arrived three years later, but I saw him coming up and he was a beast.

01:40:21.000 But I didn't want to know Dorian because he was the enemy.

01:40:24.200 Like, you don't want to be friends with these guys.

01:40:25.800 So by the time it was all said and done, he's pretty cerebral.

01:40:29.040 He's mellowed out.

01:40:30.140 He turned the corner from partying.

01:40:32.160 And, you know, he's the guy that I would look forward to having dinner with when going over

01:40:35.360 to England.

01:40:35.720 And I would seek him out.

01:40:37.120 But as a bodybuilder, during my bodybuilding years, we couldn't have been more different.

01:40:41.420 Yeah.

01:40:41.660 I enjoy the conversations with him.

01:40:43.780 He thinks very different.

01:40:44.920 A couple pictures here, Sean. 0.64

01:40:46.600 So this is you, which by the way, this is a sick picture you got here.

01:40:49.840 This is another one of those pictures that just doesn't make sense.

01:40:53.620 When you see this today, what do you think about?

01:40:55.760 Well, that was my last year of competition.

01:40:57.440 I mean, I went out kind of the way I came in.

01:40:59.980 A lot of people in 87 thought I was the heir apparent, that I would win the Mr. Olympia.

01:41:05.100 And I actually believed I would, too.

01:41:07.840 I didn't know I would spend the rest of my life trying to pursue that.

01:41:10.920 And going out of the game, leaving them wanting more was probably the best move for me rather

01:41:17.240 than try to come back like Kevin and Flex.

01:41:19.500 So that's a nice full look.

01:41:22.100 It's probably 10 days out from the Mr. Olympia, and I'm satisfied with that.

01:41:25.080 That's a pretty sick picture.

01:41:26.240 This one here, this is another one of those where you and Flex have one similar like this.

01:41:30.680 You know which one I'm talking about with Flex.

01:41:32.440 Yeah.

01:41:32.780 Is it the same photographer?

01:41:33.680 No.

01:41:34.160 He had Gary Phillips.

01:41:35.160 This is Per Bernal.

01:41:36.360 This is actually backstage walking off the Olympia stage to stand in front of his white

01:41:40.420 drop cloth backstage.

01:41:42.380 This competition, I got fourth.

01:41:43.820 This is my last Mr. Olympia appearance.

01:41:45.560 And I couldn't be more proud of the photography that Per Bernal did because it brought out

01:41:50.700 everything as a fan that I would want to see on my physique.

01:41:53.720 So this is last year and you placed fourth year.

01:41:55.500 Oh, 2001.

01:41:56.180 Interesting.

01:41:56.780 Do you see all your flaws or no?

01:41:58.420 I do.

01:41:59.000 I see my flaws from the standpoint that, look, I only have so much to work with.

01:42:03.240 I'm 5'7".

01:42:04.020 If I was 5'7", 230 pounds, you wouldn't see the detail.

01:42:08.340 I was an artist.

01:42:09.400 That's sick right there.

01:42:10.900 My facial expression reminds me of a young Yule printer.

01:42:14.680 And I always like Yule Brunner as an actor.

01:42:16.760 But the face is just as much as important as the body.

01:42:19.600 Not to mention, I knew that the midsection is the focal point of everything.

01:42:22.920 The face is just as important as the body.

01:42:24.520 Absolutely.

01:42:25.280 The chiseled jaws and all that?

01:42:26.760 The look, period.

01:42:28.120 The presence.

01:42:29.540 Depending on what pose you're hitting, whether you're smiling or you're not.

01:42:32.780 This style of pose wouldn't look right if I was smiling.

01:42:35.580 And Bob Paris perfected this pose.

01:42:37.540 I stole it from him way back when I got my own little thing to it.

01:42:40.500 John Brown has one similar.

01:42:41.540 But hitting this pose, there's more that's going on than me just trying to show my small midsection.

01:42:47.000 I'm showing the serratus on the side.

01:42:48.700 I'm trying to flex my tricep a little bit.

01:42:50.640 I'm pushing my hand up against my hamstring.

01:42:52.460 It's very uncomfortable.

01:42:53.360 I'm on dirt, right?

01:42:54.680 Where is this taking?

01:42:55.660 That's behind my house in Chino Hills.

01:42:57.380 Okay.

01:42:57.440 But when I hit a pose, it had purpose.

01:42:59.940 And it started with the facial expression.

01:43:01.680 What's your waist here? 0.95

01:43:02.520 What's your waistline here? 0.79

01:43:03.300 I have no idea.

01:43:04.160 Oh, okay.

01:43:04.560 You didn't measure yourself.

01:43:05.280 So you wouldn't know it.

01:43:05.840 But this was, again, about 10 days out.

01:43:08.300 What do you think about when you see this?

01:43:10.120 This was the shot that I had.

01:43:11.840 I think this is the 93 Olympia, if I'm not mistaken, where Flex Wheeler got second place.

01:43:16.820 And I was third place.

01:43:17.860 The first time I beat La Brada, my front double bicep at that time was probably my worst pose.

01:43:22.120 So I'm proud of where my front double bicep evolved into.

01:43:25.500 I didn't like looking at that front double bicep in 93.

01:43:28.420 I wasn't hitting it right.

01:43:29.920 But putting La Brada in my rear view, I was done.

01:43:33.480 I mean, I knew how good Flex was.

01:43:34.840 I was upset that Flex was smoother from the back and the hamstrings.

01:43:38.020 But that's Flex's pose.

01:43:39.300 That's the pose you want to make a trophy out of.

01:43:41.220 When I see the front double bicep trophy, I think of Flex Wheeler.

01:43:44.060 But taking La Brada out was a crowning moment for me.

01:43:46.260 That's pretty sick because it's the one guy that's like, can I take this guy out?

01:43:49.160 Yeah, and he was one of my idols, man.

01:43:50.900 I love Lee.

01:43:52.060 What do you think about here?

01:43:54.000 A lot of cats here.

01:43:55.180 This is pretty sick. 0.99

01:43:56.520 This is 91, and I'm like, holy crap. 0.86

01:44:00.360 So is this 91?

01:44:01.600 Yes.

01:44:02.240 That's the 91 Olympia.

01:44:03.040 Vince Taylor beat me for the first time.

01:44:05.600 And I predicted that he wouldn't beat me because he's like 10 years old than me.

01:44:08.840 And they said, if Vince Taylor ever beats me, I'm retiring. 0.98

01:44:11.020 So that fired his ass up, right?

01:44:13.480 But I got fifth place there in Orlando, Florida. 0.97

01:44:17.820 But to be on there with Lee Haney and Albert Beckles, forget everybody else.

01:44:21.780 Albert Beckles was second place in 1985 when I won the Junior World Championships over in Australia,

01:44:26.660 and he was the guest poser.

01:44:28.320 He got second place to Lee Haney in 1985.

01:44:30.620 So those two guys standing there, and I'm on that stage, and then I got Robbie Robinson.

01:44:35.580 That's a historic lineup for me.

01:44:36.900 I wasn't ready in 91.

01:44:38.040 I won the Arnold Classic, went on tour, kind of missed my peak.

01:44:41.320 Ohio, right?

01:44:41.880 Arnold Classic, Ohio.

01:44:42.640 Yeah, but this was Orlando when Dorian Yates did his first Olympia.

01:44:46.380 Got it.

01:44:47.320 Got it.

01:44:47.740 Lots of memories there.

01:44:48.720 So this right here, the big guys, when the game changed a little bit.

01:44:52.260 I never thought of Marcus Rule.

01:44:53.640 I thought it was an ugly slabs of muscle that just didn't flow properly and looked very drug-induced.

01:45:00.080 Paul DeLette, I never really considered a threat of mine.

01:45:03.180 He was big and freaky like the Incredible Hulk.

01:45:05.620 His back was incredibly weak.

01:45:07.400 His skin was incredibly thick.

01:45:08.940 But the silhouette and the size and the girth, you could not take that away.

01:45:13.460 I was there when he won the North America to turn pro.

01:45:16.040 But I thought, this is a physique that's so incomplete that if it ever beats me, I got work to do.

01:45:21.000 And he actually did.

01:45:21.960 In 1996, he got third place at the Ironman Championships.

01:45:26.820 Second in Ironman.

01:45:27.940 I got third.

01:45:28.540 Then we went to the Arnold Classic, and he beat me there.

01:45:30.780 He was fourth, and I was fifth.

01:45:32.520 That was the year.

01:45:33.520 I said, never again.

01:45:34.560 And I wound up placing second in the Mr. Olympia that year and beat Paul and beat Vince Taylor again.

01:45:40.040 Jay Kutner, that's probably one of his most iconic.

01:45:42.160 That was actually a cover shot for Jay.

01:45:43.500 That's a sick picture right there, by the way.

01:45:44.460 And Jay got all the props for me.

01:45:46.360 What a lot of people don't know about Jay is he's a six-time, six-time first runner-up at the Olympia

01:45:51.660 to go with the four Olympia titles and the three Arnold Classic titles.

01:45:55.860 No one ever mentions that he was second place six times, and there's no one ever.

01:45:59.860 There's no one ever that's been second place six times.

01:46:02.420 I didn't know he was a six-time first.

01:46:02.820 He's a six-time runner-up in the Mr. Olympia.

01:46:05.000 Six.

01:46:05.300 Did you know that?

01:46:05.940 And you followed this?

01:46:07.820 Wow.

01:46:08.460 I didn't know that.

01:46:09.540 It's a record.

01:46:10.300 What do you think about here?

01:46:12.680 Well, there's a lot of thoughts there, man, because forget the fact that I thought I should have beat Dorian Yates.

01:46:18.140 This is 94.

01:46:19.180 Yeah.

01:46:19.680 Forget the fact that I thought I should have beat Dorian Yates.

01:46:21.660 I think that Dorian in 94 was just a little too sloppy.

01:46:25.520 Listen, he was big.

01:46:26.420 There's no question you can't take that away.

01:46:28.100 The color was running all off of his body.

01:46:30.480 The bicep tear was very noticeable, but when he put his hands down, the obliques were hanging over the shorts.

01:46:36.420 So for that matter, you've got to go with the one with the fewest flaws.

01:46:39.620 Forget it that I'm not trying to say I'm perfect, but I had fewer flaws on the day.

01:46:43.620 And this is where the sport of bodybuilding could have turned the corner and gone a totally different direction, which would have favored me.

01:46:50.000 But I pretty much knew by the time I got to the finals that the people that were judging that show were not going to change their opinion.

01:46:58.340 But they could have done the right thing, and I thought they didn't that year.

01:47:01.800 I didn't hold it personal against Dorian.

01:47:03.520 I held it against the system.

01:47:04.480 I'd be curious if some of those judges are still around.

01:47:06.800 Okay, so let's talk about some of the stuff today.

01:47:09.520 Let's talk about some of the stuff today.

01:47:10.780 Okay, our buddy here from Iran.

01:47:12.800 Yeah.

01:47:13.320 What do you think about his physique?

01:47:15.380 He's a champ.

01:47:16.140 It's not a favorite physique of mine.

01:47:17.960 He doesn't have the Labrata-esque type shape.

01:47:20.740 The calves are kind of light.

01:47:22.540 The waist is not very tapered.

01:47:24.640 He's got some good muscularity.

01:47:26.100 The quads don't have the type of sweeps I like.

01:47:28.640 But he's competing in a lineup where he can do very well.

01:47:32.280 This is not one that's going to do very well in my era.

01:47:35.740 Absolutely not.

01:47:36.360 Top 10?

01:47:37.100 Not in the top 10.

01:47:38.540 Not in the top 10.

01:47:39.480 I can name top 10 physiques that, in my era, that could beat Hadi.

01:47:42.660 But he's right where he needs to be in this era.

01:47:45.720 Obviously, we know Phil, but I'm more asking about our buddy here.

01:47:50.080 Yeah, Big Rami is just a promise that hasn't been kept.

01:47:52.920 He reminds me a lot of Cedric McMillan on the day of the Olympia.

01:47:56.480 Rami has some properties that are really good.

01:47:58.780 He just hasn't tried to sculpt it.

01:48:00.780 Those quadriceps, you should never, ever press.

01:48:04.100 He's got to bring those quads down.

01:48:05.740 If his quads were down, down, it would look more palatable because the arms are so big.

01:48:12.220 He has potential right now to come into this year's Olympia and do some things.

01:48:16.480 Do some things means first or second?

01:48:17.960 He could do some things because of the people he's up against, including Brandon Curry.

01:48:21.720 So you think he could win it all?

01:48:22.920 By the way, Brandon Curry beat him in his last Olympia.

01:48:26.360 Brandon was fifth, and he was sixth place.

01:48:29.420 He wasn't in shape.

01:48:30.960 But him in shape, Brandon Curry hadn't beaten him.

01:48:33.660 So I'd like to see that rubber match to see which direction they go.

01:48:36.720 What are your thoughts on El Sombody?

01:48:37.840 I was always a fan of El Sombody as a physique.

01:48:40.360 I didn't know him, obviously, personally, but as a physique, I thought it was interesting.

01:48:43.460 Yeah, I wasn't a big fan of Nasser's physique.

01:48:47.540 Here, he beat Dorian.

01:48:48.600 This is 97, I'm assuming.

01:48:50.500 He beat Dorian not only from the front but the back, and that's where Dorian's strength was.

01:48:55.700 He just beat him.

01:48:57.220 I was third in this competition.

01:48:59.740 But Nasser was full of stuff, man.

01:49:02.020 I mean, he put oil in his arms.

01:49:03.520 He put oil in his shoulders.

01:49:04.540 He put them in his calves.

01:49:05.260 So when you know these things that some of the bodybuilders are doing.

01:49:09.080 He had to do surgery for his shoulders or something like that.

01:49:10.920 Absolutely.

01:49:11.480 So me being an artist, knowing the things that Nasser was doing, I'm not going to say it's an unfair playing field.

01:49:18.440 But to the expert eye, you can see the things he was doing, and he should have been marked down for it.

01:49:22.420 And later in his career, he couldn't make the top ten of a regular open show, let alone Olympia.

01:49:26.560 So let's do the one that all your peers have been doing, you know, whether it's Ronnie, whether it's Dorian, whether it's Flex.

01:49:34.580 Flex was the nicest out of all of them.

01:49:36.780 Ronnie's reaction was very different, and then Dorian was just the first one that went through it.

01:49:41.440 Current era against your era?

01:49:43.160 No, none of these guys in the top ten.

01:49:45.080 None of them in top ten?

01:49:45.760 I said the top ten.

01:49:47.060 So the one that could be the top ten would probably be Dexter Jackson.

01:49:51.640 But the other guys, no.

01:49:52.880 I think tenth would be Brandon, and that's not a slap in Brandon's face.

01:49:56.500 But those other guys, no.

01:49:59.440 No, I mean, Roley Winkler, for as good as he is, he couldn't beat Milo Sarchev.

01:50:05.280 And Milo Sarchev, I think, got one-tenth place in the Olympia.

01:50:08.720 Definitely couldn't beat a Chris Cormier.

01:50:12.460 These guys are right where they need to be for their timing.

01:50:15.360 And they're lucky that Dexter's not ten years younger.

01:50:18.320 Yeah, it couldn't beat Dexter if he was ten years younger.

01:50:20.020 Dexter, in his prime, couldn't make the top six of the Olympia.

01:50:23.460 And I was there.

01:50:24.260 Say that one more time.

01:50:25.040 Dexter, in his prime, couldn't make a top six during your era.

01:50:27.840 During my era, yeah.

01:50:29.200 I think Dexter would be fighting with Chris Cormier for sixth place.

01:50:32.460 He's got an incredible physique.

01:50:34.020 There's no question.

01:50:34.840 He's a Hall of Famer.

01:50:35.580 He's got an incredible physique.

01:50:36.500 Dexter, he was in the 99, 2000, and 2001 Olympia with me.

01:50:41.800 He doesn't like me to remind him that he didn't beat me.

01:50:44.320 He's beaten everyone else.

01:50:45.260 He beat Kevin.

01:50:46.020 He beat Flex.

01:50:46.600 He didn't beat me, and he hates it when I remind him of that.

01:50:49.520 But I'm a little bit older.

01:50:50.540 I think I'm four years older than Dexter.

01:50:53.380 But at the time, if we're talking about the 99 Olympia competition,

01:50:58.940 Dexter would be fighting Chris Cormier to get into the top six.

01:51:03.000 Chris was another guy that I like to follow.

01:51:06.360 There's just something about Chris that I like.

01:51:08.820 Him and I were going back and forth the other day.

01:51:10.540 He follows the content, and we were having a conversation about it.

01:51:12.800 So speed round, I'll give you names, tell me the first thing that comes to your mind.

01:51:16.120 Okay, we're coming down to the wire here.

01:51:18.880 A name, first thought that comes to mind, Kevin LeBron.

01:51:22.260 That's my boy, man.

01:51:23.360 I mean, he's probably the closest one I'm to in bodybuilding.

01:51:26.460 I mean, we have a love-hate-brother relationship.

01:51:28.120 He didn't like what I had to say about his comeback for the Olympia.

01:51:30.920 But sometimes the truth hurts.

01:51:32.640 When you hear it from your friend, you know.

01:51:34.480 It's even more painful.

01:51:35.240 It's even more painful.

01:51:36.060 But he's come full circle and acknowledged that, you know, some of the things I was saying were coming from a good place.

01:51:42.260 Ronnie Coleman.

01:51:44.060 He's one of those good old boys, man.

01:51:45.700 We're in Texas.

01:51:46.480 Ronnie's a good old boy.

01:51:47.580 There's nothing bad you can say about Ronnie.

01:51:49.700 He should have took his foot off the gas a long time ago.

01:51:52.760 He doesn't blame bodybuilding for his injuries.

01:51:55.580 He blames the surgeons.

01:51:56.680 But I believe it's the bodybuilding.

01:51:58.660 If he had taken his foot off the gas when he retired, I think we'd be talking to a different Ronnie.

01:52:03.920 Dorian Yates.

01:52:04.540 Dorian, he was a game changer because that's when it changed when he arrived.

01:52:10.400 If there's no Dorian Yates, you probably have Sean Ray as a Mr. Olympia.

01:52:13.760 You probably have a Flex Wheeler.

01:52:15.340 Dorian changed the game.

01:52:16.580 He ushered in the mass monsters because no one ever thought Lehaney was a mass monster because he had the nice shape.

01:52:23.240 But Dorian ushered in something that brought out the bigness and the size, and it was a game changer for sure.

01:52:30.160 Flex Wheeler.

01:52:31.100 The Enigma.

01:52:31.600 I mean, Flex, you don't know if you're dealing with Flex or Kenny from one moment to the next.

01:52:36.080 And mind you, I met Ken Wheeler back in 1988, helped me move into my apartment.

01:52:40.980 I kind of mentored him a little bit in the beginning, but then he took on the Flex Wheeler persona, and that's a whole other gangster thug style.

01:52:48.320 But I got to tell you, he comes from a good place.

01:52:50.000 I think he's come full circle.

01:52:52.100 I mean, when you get humbled, you start to realize the things that really matter.

01:52:56.120 I'm glad that he is starting to recognize that, you know, people are more important than things.

01:53:01.440 Hour after Kobe died, he called me, and I had a very emotional conversation together with what happened with Kobe.

01:53:09.600 Jay Cutler.

01:53:11.560 Jay's all business, man.

01:53:12.620 Jay hasn't changed from when I met him coming into the game.

01:53:16.800 Mind you, his first Olympia was in 2000, and I believe he's like 12th or something, or 14th.

01:53:24.460 And all that success, and he's still the same Jay that I met back then.

01:53:28.940 I just did a seminar with him over the weekend.

01:53:30.340 But I like the idea that he realizes his seniority in the sport, and he is genuinely trying to pay it forward and give it back.

01:53:39.120 You can't take it with you.

01:53:40.260 Six times front and up, and that's nuts to me.

01:53:43.580 Yeah.

01:53:44.000 Bill Phillips.

01:53:45.740 He was also a game changer.

01:53:47.260 If you want to use the game changer, my training partner married one of his girls that did the Body for Life transformation, the very first one.

01:53:53.000 So I was there.

01:53:53.880 I was part of the whole Metrix thing in the beginning in 93 with Dr. Conley and Jeff Everson and those guys.

01:54:00.820 Bill was ahead of his time.

01:54:02.560 It seems like he kind of cashed his chips in and went away, but, you know, he's done a lot of things along the way that continue to stay relevant today.

01:54:09.980 He came along at the right time.

01:54:11.520 Without Bill Phillips, I think we're missing a lot of components that are relevant to today's bodybuilding.

01:54:16.420 How about your best friend, Lee Priest?

01:54:18.660 I think Lee, he's a loss.

01:54:21.000 He's lost, bro.

01:54:21.780 I mean, Lee's animosity towards me goes back to me taking one of his girlfriends.

01:54:28.600 Actually, I didn't take his girlfriend.

01:54:29.720 It was his ex-girlfriend that I wound up being with, and he never got over it.

01:54:33.580 And I think that if there's no Sean Ray, then Lee Priest has talked about with even more esteem.

01:54:38.760 He never beat me.

01:54:40.060 I was never in competition with him, but every time I turned around, he was dropping my name in a negative sense.

01:54:46.280 And sometimes, you know, you get attention drawn to you when you call out the guy that's got the biggest mouth.

01:54:49.840 I had the mouth, I had the accolades, and he's a guy that's still trying to find himself.

01:54:55.420 You can tell with all the paint all over his face.

01:54:57.380 Like, he's running from something.

01:54:59.620 Lee Labrada.

01:55:00.640 Lee Labrada.

01:55:01.600 He got the mass with class.

01:55:03.760 Everything I did, I was copying him.

01:55:05.760 So when you saw me show up, not in sweats, wearing a suit and a tie, in my posing routines, Lee set the standard for that.

01:55:13.400 Raised the bar of professionalism.

01:55:15.140 I wanted to be looked at and kind of regarded that way.

01:55:20.480 And he didn't teach me that.

01:55:21.940 He has a letter that I wrote him when my career was over.

01:55:24.940 My career was over or his career was over.

01:55:26.580 One of the two.

01:55:27.880 But I made sure that he knew that I appreciated what he brought to the game.

01:55:31.000 It's impressive for you to be able to say something like that.

01:55:32.640 Yeah.

01:55:33.240 Gaspari.

01:55:34.180 Blue collar.

01:55:35.080 I mean, Rich and I, he sponsors my show every year in Hawaii.

01:55:40.540 I've never seen somebody do so much with so little.

01:55:43.160 Rich was a big block of frickin' butter when he first came on the scene.

01:55:47.260 I remember witnessing him come up through the national championships.

01:55:50.300 And I was very envious that he was training with Lee Haney as a training partner.

01:55:53.460 I thought, what an advantage he had over everyone.

01:55:56.060 When I won the Junior World Championships, my training partner at 20 years old said that

01:56:02.400 I could beat Rich Gaspari.

01:56:04.100 And Rich Gaspari, I think, got third in the Mr. Olympia Championships that year.

01:56:07.980 And I said, no way.

01:56:09.600 I mean, he came into our gym.

01:56:10.720 He was doing a video.

01:56:11.940 His very first training video.

01:56:13.380 I remind Rich all the time that my training partner said I would beat you one day.

01:56:17.420 And I did not.

01:56:18.080 That's the one thing I didn't believe.

01:56:19.720 And then in 1990.

01:56:20.880 You did not believe.

01:56:21.800 I didn't believe I could beat.

01:56:23.000 Because, I mean, he was barely 22 years old getting third in the Olympia.

01:56:27.260 And I thought it was just so far-fetched.

01:56:29.860 And he was training with Lee Haney.

01:56:31.840 And he went on to get three first runner-ups.

01:56:34.600 And in 1990, I surpassed him.

01:56:36.520 And just another one of those milestones in my career that validated that I chose the right sport.

01:56:41.760 Interesting.

01:56:42.260 David Pecker.

01:56:43.620 I don't really know Dave.

01:56:44.860 I haven't had—we had dinner twice.

01:56:47.340 I don't know him.

01:56:48.380 I do know that he reminds me of Joe Weider.

01:56:51.120 He resembles Joe Weider.

01:56:52.880 I don't know if he has the same passion as Joe Weider in terms of what to do with this sport of bodybuilding.

01:56:58.220 But he's hiring the right people at the right time to do the right things.

01:57:02.440 So a lot of things you pointed on that haven't been happening, hearing them being verbalized could potentially turn into things that might materialize.

01:57:11.060 Because we're at a point where he's at least willing to listen to the people he brings it to his office.

01:57:17.020 And if he's willing to listen and let people do what needs to be done, I think some of the things you were discussing earlier could potentially in the next three to five years get done.

01:57:25.540 And we could be in a totally different space.

01:57:27.320 It's good to hear.

01:57:28.500 Robin Chang.

01:57:30.500 Oh, man.

01:57:31.140 I remember Robin when he was carrying Flex Wheeler's gym bag.

01:57:34.260 He was working for ESPN on American Muscle with Lose the Wick.

01:57:38.080 That's how far back we go.

01:57:39.100 I mean, we're going back to the early 90s when Robin came on the scene.

01:57:43.220 And I've got to tell you, he's very cerebral, caring, and he's thoughtful to the athletes.

01:57:48.620 I think that Robin is a very diplomatic player in this sport.

01:57:53.300 And he grew up in this sport.

01:57:55.620 So if you want to know how things should be done, how people should be treated, I think Robin has a firm grasp on how those things run.

01:58:03.560 Cool.

01:58:04.080 Phil Heath.

01:58:04.460 Man, I would have to say, because I was closer to Phil when he first turned pro than after, because I worked for a different magazine.

01:58:14.580 I worked for Muscular Development.

01:58:15.880 He worked for Muscle and Fitness.

01:58:18.120 And so we've had this big chasm come between us.

01:58:20.180 So he's somebody different now.

01:58:21.760 But I've got to say, he's self-made.

01:58:25.080 I don't think anybody can take credit for what Phil's done.

01:58:27.840 And the word gift is appropriate, because when we saw him, we said, holy crap, this is not something that you can just develop.

01:58:35.300 He's born with it.

01:58:36.000 He's got a gift.

01:58:37.620 I think he could do a little bit more with it than what he's done.

01:58:40.120 But maybe he's doing with it what he wants.

01:58:42.000 I mean, to whom much is given, much is expected.

01:58:45.280 I come from the bodybuilding elk like that Olympia is the Holy Grail.

01:58:48.780 He's got seven of them.

01:58:49.720 He's got different ideas what each one of those mean to him.

01:58:52.420 But I've got to tell you, I think he's done the best with what he could with it.

01:58:55.360 I'd like to see him do more in the landscape of bodybuilding as a figurehead.

01:58:59.840 If the powers that be are not allowing him, that's a different story.

01:59:03.560 But I'd love to have him be more relevant, because I think for the past year, he's been a little bit too invisible.

01:59:08.780 And the best thing for bodybuilding right now is if Phil came back, takes his title, because I believe that that has his name on it.

01:59:16.260 And if you're asking me to give him advice, Phil, go back to your first love, get that title, tie that record, and then go for number nine.

01:59:23.520 He has a very small window at his age that he could actually wind up with nine.

01:59:28.540 All he has to do is what he's always done.

01:59:30.920 Fix the problem.

01:59:31.780 That's the easy part.

01:59:32.720 He doesn't have to go build up bigger arms or a bigger back.

01:59:35.560 But when you sit on the sidelines for a year, you become civilized.

01:59:39.720 It's like coming home from war, and they call you back up to go back.

01:59:42.300 It's not as easy as said than done, because getting under that weight, doing the things that you have to do, it takes a very disciplined mind.

01:59:52.160 And I'm not sure he's not too civilized right now.

01:59:55.120 He may be a little too civilized for that.

01:59:57.400 He can't come back to fail.

01:59:59.080 Like, he would have to know he's going to war.

02:00:01.080 And going to war with these guys, Phil Heath is the shoe-in for me.

02:00:05.580 I mean, there's nothing he needs to do other than just come in a little bit lighter.

02:00:09.220 Ronnie Coleman did it in 2001 when he won the Arnold Classic Championship, before he almost died in 2001.

02:00:15.200 Phil doesn't need to die to win number eight.

02:00:17.440 Phil comes back.

02:00:18.500 He would send shockwaves through all of these guys because he has the tools.

02:00:23.520 He doesn't have to rebuild anything.

02:00:25.520 He got penalized for what they were going to be penalizing him.

02:00:28.400 He knew what he was going to get penalized for.

02:00:30.440 Now just fix it and come back and get your title.

02:00:32.280 When was the last time you guys spoke?

02:00:33.640 I talked to Phil over the new year, and I basically told him he needed to call Jim Mannion.

02:00:37.900 He needed to call Jim Mannion?

02:00:38.920 Yes.

02:00:39.220 Got it.

02:00:39.460 Okay.

02:00:39.900 Last one.

02:00:40.580 Arnold Schwarzenegger.

02:00:42.660 Without Arnold, I don't think there's a lot of us.

02:00:44.880 I mean, Arnold made this what it is.

02:00:47.060 He put the lipstick on the Sportman.

02:00:48.640 If you don't have those pictures of Arnold training at Golds with Franco and, you know,

02:00:54.020 marrying a Kennedy and doing the movies and, I mean, creating the Arnold Classic, what do you have?

02:01:00.040 Without him, we don't have it.

02:01:01.180 I mean, I certainly wouldn't be promoting the Sean Ray Classic.

02:01:03.900 When the Arnold Classic came out, I thought, one day I want the Sean Ray Classic.

02:01:06.940 Interesting.

02:01:07.340 Interesting.

02:01:07.660 Right?

02:01:07.940 I mean, he's affected people in the domino effect that I don't even think he knows.

02:01:11.940 And for me to be working with Arnold every year and for me to be able to be in that universe,

02:01:18.880 it's very vast.

02:01:20.680 And I'm actually going to his museum in Austria in March.

02:01:23.340 I get to go to Graz.

02:01:23.880 That's cool.

02:01:24.300 He's the closest thing to a Joe Weider that we have in terms of being revealed.

02:01:30.800 You know, I mean, we, God forbid we lose Arnold, and we're all going to go.

02:01:36.360 But when that day comes, it's going to be a very sad day for bodybuilding.

02:01:39.140 Oh, I bet.

02:01:40.000 Yeah.

02:01:40.300 I bet it is.

02:01:41.200 Top five greatest bodybuilders of all time, in your opinion, all time.

02:01:45.380 Well, Arnold's in there because without Arnold, you don't even have the blueprint.

02:01:48.440 So we start with Arnold and work our way back.

02:01:51.140 Lee Haney's in there.

02:01:52.160 Of course, we've evolved and we've got bigger legs.

02:01:54.700 We've got bigger calves.

02:01:55.600 We've got the bigger back.

02:01:58.120 I really love Sergio Oliva.

02:02:01.900 Sergio Oliva's the game changer because I think he showed that you can put mass where mass isn't supposed to be.

02:02:07.980 I mean, he did it in Cuba, like, I mean, in the 60s.

02:02:12.420 He did it at a time where it's not fashionable.

02:02:14.840 But more importantly for Sergio Oliva is the joints, right?

02:02:17.560 I mean, nobody's been born with that type of configuration.

02:02:22.160 I got to put Ronnie Coleman in there because Ronnie did what no other human can do in terms of the girth.

02:02:28.000 I never thought of Ronnie as a beautiful bodybuilder.

02:02:30.300 And I've always thought a body has to have some beauty to it.

02:02:33.780 Nothing pretty about Ronnie's physique.

02:02:35.380 But there's nobody else that can duplicate that because of the amount of weights that he lifted.

02:02:40.560 We're never going to see anybody lift that kind of weight.

02:02:42.380 He was a powerlifter.

02:02:43.520 To look like Ronnie, you've got to do what Ronnie's doing, and there's no one going to do what Ronnie did.

02:02:47.380 So I found a little satisfaction in beating him in the early years because I can always brag about that I beat him.

02:02:54.260 But, of course, once he won it, it was a stranglehold.

02:02:57.260 And even though he ended kind of poorly, it was going to change because of the things he was doing.

02:03:03.180 And I think we're missing one more, which I would say Samir Banu.

02:03:05.640 Samir Banu for me.

02:03:07.120 You put Samir in his top five.

02:03:08.340 For me.

02:03:09.640 And you've got to remember when I started.

02:03:11.480 When I started, I didn't have a Phil Heath.

02:03:13.700 I didn't have a Dorian.

02:03:14.600 I didn't have a Jay Cutler.

02:03:16.220 But what's very impressionable, and we all remember our first.

02:03:19.200 I remember the first time I lifted weights, right?

02:03:21.020 I remember the first time I opened the magazine.

02:03:23.440 And I saw Bob Paris before I saw any of these guys.

02:03:25.500 But when I saw Samir Banu in 1983 as Mr. Olympia with the split in the bicep, with the Lions, with Betty Weider, with the standout trophy, and Muhammad McAway there in the shadows,

02:03:36.920 I thought he was six feet tall and maybe 400 pounds.

02:03:41.440 You couldn't put him in a box.

02:03:43.700 So if not for Samir, I probably wouldn't have gone to this business the way that I did as an artist.

02:03:50.940 I never lost the artistry of bodybuilding, which is why you never saw me with the bloated gut and all that other stuff.

02:03:56.440 I posed out of shape once.

02:03:59.120 And there's a couple of pictures floating around on the internet that remind me that I made that mistake.

02:04:04.240 But Samir, to me, was what Mr. Olympia was supposed to be.

02:04:07.120 All those other guys that are worthy of that title, they're great champions.

02:04:10.300 But I never aspired to be a Phil Heath.

02:04:12.020 And maybe it's because he's younger than me.

02:04:14.380 But with Samir being older and laying the footprints, that's what I kind of always kept in mind while I was training in the gym.

02:04:20.860 It's very tough to have prior generations put somebody that's younger than them in the list.

02:04:26.100 I don't, you know, even in basketball and baseball, it's just a different kind of a way of doing that.

02:04:30.580 It's almost like you have to go to another sport.

02:04:32.120 I've got to go to another sport of a younger player doing something that I've always wished that I could do, right?

02:04:37.040 Like I always wanted to be like Mike Tyson, right?

02:04:39.780 But in bodybuilding, you can't be that way.

02:04:41.780 But Mike was just a beast and an animal.

02:04:43.840 And that's how I approached the weights.

02:04:45.520 And I took my battles out on my training partners the way that Mike did on his.

02:04:49.300 So, Paul, is it fair to say this is the longest bodybuilding interview we've ever done?

02:04:53.660 I don't know what, I've never done it this long.

02:04:56.540 I want to say this, Kai, is this the longest we've ever done?

02:04:59.140 We've touched a lot of topics.

02:05:00.760 I certainly hope the IFBB is watching.

02:05:04.720 I certainly hope the Olympia folks are watching.

02:05:07.140 Obviously, the bodybuilding folks are watching because they come visit us here all the time. 0.98

02:05:11.060 But there was a – and I also appreciate you being a class act for allowing me to push you

02:05:16.640 and you pushing back and giving your points because I think that's how I get educated.

02:05:20.080 Sure.

02:05:20.580 For me, you've been in this thing for pretty much your entire life.

02:05:23.780 It's not my part.

02:05:24.660 I just appreciate the sport, and I admire what many of you did with your physique.

02:05:28.580 And I want to give the exposure to the business because I like this business.

02:05:32.400 So, appreciate you for coming up.

02:05:34.080 Appreciate your answers.

02:05:35.160 Yeah.

02:05:35.300 And hopefully, I will see you in September at the Mr. Olympia so I can kind of see from

02:05:41.220 the business standpoint.

02:05:42.200 Yeah, well, I just want to leave you with this parting thing is that a lot of the bodybuilders

02:05:46.020 think that the industry owes them something.

02:05:48.920 I mean, everything I've gotten was from bodybuilding.

02:05:51.440 And I think a lot of the guys before me can say the same thing, but you reap what you sow.

02:05:55.080 Like, I'm not Mr. Olympia, but I'm still able to go out and get sponsors for the things

02:06:00.540 that I'm involved in that have to do with bodybuilding where the next generation of bodybuilders

02:06:04.920 are going to come from, which enables me to do the Sean Ray Classic, which enables me

02:06:08.740 to send people to the Mr. Olympia to watch it, to send people out to my show in Hawaii

02:06:13.000 to watch it.

02:06:14.440 So, representing companies like the watch company, like the clothing company, like the

02:06:17.400 tanning company, it enables me to be able to give back and also feed my kids.

02:06:21.960 So, it becomes a business.

02:06:23.540 You can't just rely on the prize money, right?

02:06:26.080 You have to find your niche, and it's not through social media.

02:06:29.600 It's through relationships.

02:06:31.280 I totally agree with that.

02:06:32.480 Now, obviously, you know where I stand with some of the stuff on what Olympia could do

02:06:35.260 to give them a, like, really reach out a little bit more, but I fully agree with you.

02:06:40.640 Having said that, brother, thanks for coming on.

02:06:42.200 Really, I enjoyed it.

02:06:43.100 Thanks for coming on.

02:06:43.740 This was great.

02:06:44.440 Thanks, everybody, for listening.

02:06:45.660 And by the way, if you haven't already subscribed to Valuetainment on iTunes, please do so.

02:06:50.280 Give us a five-star.

02:06:51.700 Write a review if you haven't already.

02:06:53.160 And if you have any questions for me that you may have, you can always find me on Snapchat,

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02:06:59.000 Just search my name, Patrick MidDavid, and I actually do respond back when you snap me

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02:07:05.880 With that being said, have a great day today.

02:07:07.700 Take care, everybody.

02:07:08.440 Bye-bye.

Valuetainment - March 06, 2020

Episode 438： Shawn Ray Slams Phil Heath & Defends Mr Olympia

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