Valuetainment - Episode 477： FBI's Most Wanted Con Artist Reveals Loopholes in The System

00:00:00.000 Today I'm sitting down with probably one of the most infamous American Greed stories,

00:00:26.600 Matthew Cox, FBI's most wanted con artist, reveals loopholes in the system. Brace yourself.

00:00:32.860 Matthew Cox, Matthew, thanks for coming out.

00:00:34.520 Sure, no problem.

00:00:35.640 So this is, you got a crazy story here, man.

00:00:38.580 What's the story with you learning how to go up against the banks and, you know, make 11 and a half million dollars in two years,

00:00:46.640 and some say 40 million, some say other numbers.

00:00:49.600 So how did you even get into this business?

00:00:51.500 Um, let's see, how did I get into business? I was, I graduated USF with a degree in fine arts,

00:01:00.160 which is essentially, you know, I don't want to say useless, but I couldn't make any real money doing that.

00:01:07.040 I have a learning disability. I tried, I actually tried my hand at being an insurance adjuster,

00:01:14.000 got my 220 property casualty license in Florida, became an insurance adjuster, was laid off twice.

00:01:22.980 That industry was not working for me.

00:01:25.340 I had a girlfriend that had gotten a job working for a subprime lender, and she said,

00:01:29.820 you're made for this. You've got to do this. You absolutely would be phenomenal at this.

00:01:34.920 And the nice thing was all the paperwork was done by the processor.

00:01:38.280 So all I really had to do was get clients, bring them in, structure the deal,

00:01:43.600 and most of the paperwork was processed by the processor.

00:01:47.300 So it worked really well.

00:01:49.400 Like the first month, I think, I closed like, I closed like, like a couple of loans.

00:01:54.400 Next month was like four loans. Then it was six. Then it was eight.

00:01:57.360 Then it was ten. Then they made me a branch manager.

00:02:01.320 Eventually, within a year or so, I opened my own mortgage company.

00:02:04.500 So you left them.

00:02:05.460 I left them.

00:02:06.020 Who were you with at first?

00:02:07.040 It was Eagle Lending.

00:02:09.060 It was Eagle Lending.

00:02:10.000 Yeah, well, they went under.

00:02:11.680 Well, a lot of them did.

00:02:12.500 Yeah, yeah.

00:02:12.780 Some of them you remember. Like, you know, there was big names that you would remember.

00:02:15.520 Yeah.

00:02:15.740 So Eagle Lending, this is in Florida.

00:02:17.840 Well, this was in, yes, this was in Florida.

00:02:19.360 Got it.

00:02:19.500 But they were in several, several states.

00:02:20.960 Got it. Okay.

00:02:22.100 And so a year later, you decide to start your own deal.

00:02:25.260 Right.

00:02:25.560 And what happens next?

00:02:27.740 I hired a bunch of brokers. I had probably a dozen guys working there.

00:02:31.840 And the problem was that at Eagle, essentially, sorry, essentially at Eagle Lending, really the first loan I ever did, everything looked great except for one piece of paper, which was a verification of rent.

00:02:48.280 And my client or my, my borrower had a 30-day late. My manager told me, get rid of the 30-day late. You got a loan. You'll make 3,500 bucks.

00:02:56.620 If you send this to underwriting the way it is, you're done.

00:02:59.100 So she actually pulled out a bottle of whiteout and gave it to me, said, white it out, make a copy.

00:03:04.520 So I made a copy. I mean, I was, I'd never done anything wrong before.

00:03:07.300 Made a copy, sent it in, sweated bullets for four or five days, went through underwriting.

00:03:12.140 Everything's great. Loan closed. I got a check for 3,500 bucks.

00:03:15.440 You know, it emboldened me.

00:03:16.860 And the next guy, if he had made $55,000, he's going to get a loan, but he made 45.

00:03:23.580 So if that four became a five, we've got a loan. Well, I changed the W-2. 0.89

00:03:29.680 You still did that over there, or you started doing it after?

00:03:31.880 Well, I started doing it at Eagle.

00:03:33.920 Oh, at Eagle you were doing this.

00:03:35.100 But then when I started my own place, it just, it just ramped up.

00:03:38.920 And before you know it, all the guys working for me are doing fraudulent loans.

00:03:42.080 And we just became a, you know, a mill.

00:03:44.620 I'm not saying all the loans were fraudulent, but a good portion of the loans were fraudulent loans.

00:03:49.000 When you were doing it at your place.

00:03:50.860 Can I ask you a question about Eagle?

00:03:52.400 Sure.

00:03:52.620 When you were there. Let me ask you this.

00:03:53.820 Because sometimes in the world, I was in L.A.

00:03:57.020 And when I was in L.A., I mean, countrywide, new century, you remember these guys.

00:04:01.780 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:04:02.080 Guys are making full $500,000, $600,000 per month is what they're making.

00:04:07.040 And it's no income, no assets, creative financing, you know, don't worry about it.

00:04:11.980 Everyone's got a 720, 740, all this other stuff.

00:04:15.580 Some of the guys that did it right came from a place that taught the right habits.

00:04:20.700 Some of the guys that picked up the bad habits came from a place that was very normal to have the bad habits.

00:04:26.760 Would you say you picked up some of those bad habits from being at Eagle?

00:04:30.140 Or even prior to that, you kind of figured out some creative ways to make money, even as a kid in high school or coming out of high school?

00:04:37.340 Yeah, I know.

00:04:37.840 I really didn't.

00:04:39.100 It was definitely at Eagle, and it started with the manager of the store.

00:04:46.120 And she was making money.

00:04:49.060 She was closing loans.

00:04:49.980 I was desperate to make money.

00:04:51.880 I was desperate not to end up living in my parents' spare room.

00:04:56.880 And I just slowly, it just started creeping up on me.

00:05:00.940 And before you knew it, it was just all-consuming.

00:05:03.820 I mean, I, you know, and look, I enjoyed it.

00:05:08.480 The fact of the matter is, is that, you know, getting over on somebody, on the banking industry, on an underwriter,

00:05:13.940 and kind of faking them out or something, there's a certain, I guess, perverse pleasure in that.

00:05:21.340 You know, you start, you feel good, you feel smart, you feel sharp, like, wow, I really did something.

00:05:25.660 The loan closes, you make a chunk of money.

00:05:28.160 And it just, it just, it just got bigger and bigger, expanded from there.

00:05:32.060 And, of course, my brokers are all doing it now.

00:05:33.920 And there's so many people in the industry.

00:05:35.920 Subprime was so corrupt at the time.

00:05:38.020 Even when we got caught, and we got caught all the time.

00:05:40.000 I got caught with a couple million dollars from a bank one time.

00:05:43.540 Talked to the guy.

00:05:45.140 It was Pinnacle Bank Corp out of Chicago.

00:05:49.580 Talked to the owner.

00:05:50.340 He called me up.

00:05:51.420 He's like, look, we've got, clearly this is fraud.

00:05:53.880 We pulled all these files.

00:05:54.880 We got a couple million dollars.

00:05:56.440 They'd already sold a million to Household Bank.

00:05:58.980 And I'm sitting there saying, look, if you're trying to tell me that you want me to buy back $2 million, that's not going to happen.

00:06:06.340 So we need to come up with another solution here.

00:06:08.100 And he goes, okay, well, nobody wants, look, he goes, nobody wants the FBI digging through their files.

00:06:12.460 He goes, so we're going to go ahead and sell this million to Household in a sale next week.

00:06:17.560 So if any of them come back on us, just promise you'll help us get rid of them.

00:06:21.420 And I was like, of course.

00:06:22.820 The likelihood that they were going to catch that fraud two months or three months later was very unlikely.

00:06:28.720 So, of course, that sold.

00:06:30.120 And, I mean, I got caught multiple times.

00:06:32.500 Eventually, you know, eventually a broker that had worked for me got caught committing fraud.

00:06:44.040 And she wore a wire. 0.95

00:06:45.820 She and her husband wore a wire on me because they knew I had been doing fraud.

00:06:49.740 And they got me to admit things on tape.

00:06:54.160 And so the FBI came in and they said, look, we're going to indict you.

00:06:58.260 And so they indicted me.

00:06:59.720 Well, they actually waived the indictment.

00:07:01.120 It doesn't matter.

00:07:02.080 You know, essentially they said, you plead guilty to this fraud and you lose your mortgage company.

00:07:09.120 And so I said, okay.

00:07:10.400 I mean, by that point, I think when the FBI came in, which was at a later time, they said that the mortgage company,

00:07:16.200 they estimated it had done like $40 million in bad loans over the course of like two or three years.

00:07:21.220 But that doesn't mean that that's loss.

00:07:23.100 It just means that you got a $200,000 loan that you shouldn't have gotten.

00:07:26.760 And they're saying that's a bad loan.

00:07:28.220 That's $200,000 in bad loans.

00:07:30.440 Well, you made the payments.

00:07:32.440 Or maybe you didn't.

00:07:33.300 I don't know.

00:07:33.840 But they estimate around $40 million.

00:07:35.660 So at that point, I should have claimed bankruptcy, should have moved in with mom and dad.

00:07:43.920 But I've got bills.

00:07:46.400 I don't want to take a step back.

00:07:48.380 So I decided to go ahead and escalate the fraud.

00:07:52.280 And I decided to start flipping houses in an area of Tampa, known as Ybor City, Tampa Heights area.

00:07:57.640 I don't know if you're familiar with it.

00:07:58.740 It's a nice area.

00:07:59.620 Yes.

00:07:59.900 At the time, it was rough.

00:08:01.920 It was rough.

00:08:02.680 I mean, the median house in that area was probably worth $50,000 to $60,000.

00:08:08.960 Got it.

00:08:09.500 So I go in and I start buying up houses.

00:08:12.200 The problem with buying those houses is that the people that live in those areas, they don't have good credit.

00:08:19.780 They don't have their down payments.

00:08:21.220 They quit their job a week before the loan closes.

00:08:25.160 And so you're struggling against your buyers.

00:08:27.360 So what I decided was that if I could get around the buyer somehow to borrow the money against the houses, which meant I had to start creating the buyers.

00:08:38.280 So I started creating my own buyers and creating synthetic identities.

00:08:43.320 And I figured out how to get Social Security to issue Social Security numbers to people that didn't exist.

00:08:52.560 That's pretty creative right there.

00:08:53.980 Yeah.

00:08:54.480 I want to say it was difficult, but it was really a lot of phone calls.

00:08:59.280 And then it was just coming up with the documents.

00:09:00.540 And it wasn't, it was complicated, but it wasn't, once I got the system down, it wasn't that hard.

00:09:07.300 Social Security will issue a Social Security number to a child under the age of 12, 12 months old, without the child being present.

00:09:16.040 So all you have to do as a parent is show up with the birth certificate and the shot record.

00:09:21.260 And you say, my child was born.

00:09:23.440 I never got a Social Security number issued.

00:09:25.040 And they'll issue a Social Security number to a child who's 10 months old without seeing the child.

00:09:31.120 And, of course, I would go in using a fake ID.

00:09:34.040 And they would check the computer and they'd go, you're right.

00:09:36.560 This child exists, but we don't have a Social Security number for him.

00:09:39.560 We will issue the Social Security number and they mail it to you.

00:09:41.960 So then I would go with that Social Security number.

00:09:44.260 I would then order three secured credit cards, make the payments for six months, and suddenly I have 690 credit scores.

00:09:51.700 You know, 650, 710 credit scores.

00:09:56.100 So I've got this perfect synthetic individual that can now buy my houses for $40,000.

00:10:00.280 So I'm buying a house for $40,000.

00:10:01.780 The problem is I would clean it up a little bit, and even if I sold it at top dollar for $60,000 or $70,000, I'm making $30,000, $25,000.

00:10:09.040 That's not worth it.

00:10:10.240 So the issue is you need to borrow more.

00:10:11.980 I needed to borrow more money in this synthetic individual name.

00:10:15.620 So I need to get the houses to appraise higher.

00:10:17.700 So I was dating a girl at a title company, and she explained to me how sales were recorded.

00:10:26.900 And, of course, do you know anything about appraisals?

00:10:29.080 You probably know.

00:10:29.460 Which part?

00:10:30.020 Well, like to appraise a house.

00:10:31.640 Yeah, of course.

00:10:32.240 I know what a, yeah, sure.

00:10:33.400 You need an appraisal.

00:10:34.180 Well, the way they gauge the value of the home is they look and they find three other comparable sales in the area within one mile that have sold within one year.

00:10:42.420 And so what I did was I said, okay, well, if I'm trying to sell this house for $150,000, I can't get an appraisal unless I can find comparable sales.

00:10:51.200 And she explained that, look, if you pay the extra doc stamps on the sale, those recordings will not go for, they won't record at $50,000.

00:10:58.840 They'll record at $150,000 or $200,000.

00:11:00.680 If you pay an extra $700,000, it adds $100,000 to it.

00:11:04.260 So now I'm buying houses for $50,000 and I'm recording the value at $150,000 or $200,000.

00:11:09.780 And I'm doing it all over the place in the name of synthetic individuals don't exist.

00:11:14.800 And this was the dumbest part, is that I'm naming these guys James Redd, Brandon Green, Michael White, Lee Black.

00:11:23.800 Reservoir dogs. 0.96

00:11:24.620 Yeah, reservoir dogs.

00:11:25.820 Just, I mean, and I thought I was so clever.

00:11:27.600 I really did.

00:11:28.460 You know, you always think you're clever until the judge is looking at you going, you know, what are you doing? 0.98

00:11:35.240 You just suddenly you realize, okay, that was a jackass move. 0.98

00:11:38.220 My bad. 0.96

00:11:39.260 But, so I've got all these houses and each guy's buying, he's buying five houses.

00:11:44.200 We're recording the values for $150,000 to $200,000.

00:11:47.320 The appraisers, the banks are, I'm ordering an appraisal from a bank.

00:11:52.400 Countrywide's coming in and saying, their own appraiser's coming out and they're looking at it and they're going, yeah, it's worth $200,000.

00:11:58.280 There's a comp two blocks away here, three blocks over here.

00:12:01.400 They don't realize I own all those comps in various names.

00:12:04.560 I'm creating the market.

00:12:05.720 Can I go back on the title when you said you pay $700 a little bit more, the comps are going to favor you?

00:12:10.260 Who helps benefit the comps for you?

00:12:13.700 Is there somebody that puts bigger numbers?

00:12:15.660 Who is that person?

00:12:16.900 What happens is I buy your house for $50,000.

00:12:19.240 Okay.

00:12:19.680 And I close, obviously, a title company that I know, the person.

00:12:22.980 And then I either would say, I want a construction credit for $100,000 added to this $50,000 sale.

00:12:30.340 So now they would say, well, that would make the sale $150,000.

00:12:34.120 Matt, it's going to cost you an extra $700 in taxes.

00:12:36.940 And I would say, that's fine.

00:12:38.160 I'll pay the extra $700.

00:12:39.620 Because it's 0.007 for every $100,000, $700.

00:12:43.000 Okay.

00:12:43.460 So it's nothing that the title rep is doing that's fraudulent.

00:12:46.260 You're just saying it's going to cost another $100,000 on construction loan, 0.7%, $700.

00:12:50.520 It's a $150,000 house, not a $50,000 house.

00:12:53.180 Or even if I bought it from you for $50,000 and I explain to the title company, let me record it.

00:12:58.560 I'll bring it down there and record it.

00:13:00.200 And they go, if they know me, they're like, okay, well, why?

00:13:02.300 Well, I want to get a copy of the recorded deed.

00:13:03.760 Oh, okay, no problem, Matt.

00:13:04.820 I go down.

00:13:05.980 I fill out the paper.

00:13:06.820 I change the paperwork right then.

00:13:07.920 I just add a check for $700.

00:13:09.480 I record.

00:13:09.960 And I go to the clerk.

00:13:11.520 Here you go.

00:13:12.020 They go, okay.

00:13:12.940 $150.

00:13:13.540 Oh, okay.

00:13:13.920 It's $200.

00:13:14.540 You added an extra $900.

00:13:17.100 It jumps up almost $100,000, instead of $100,000, $140,000 plus the $50,000.

00:13:22.120 Now it's $190,000.

00:13:23.580 So I'm doing that.

00:13:25.140 And so the whole market shoots up through the roof.

00:13:27.240 It goes from like the median price of $60,000 to like $190,000 to $200,000.

00:13:31.400 I think by the time I was done, they said it was at $250,000.

00:13:34.760 But all these guys are buying five houses.

00:13:38.460 So James Redd owns five houses worth $200,000 a piece that he bought for.

00:13:44.040 He's got $200,000 in.

00:13:45.100 I'm borrowing a million dollars on these houses.

00:13:48.580 So I'm borrowing a million dollars on houses that I've got maybe $250,000 and another $100,000

00:13:53.260 to clean up a little bit.

00:13:54.580 I'm making $600,000 or $700,000 for each one of these guys.

00:13:57.940 And there's several people involved.

00:14:00.320 So this is what we were doing.

00:14:02.180 There's several people.

00:14:03.500 Now you're the lead guy, but there's several other people involved.

00:14:05.900 Correct.

00:14:06.480 I got it.

00:14:07.060 Now let me ask you, if you don't mind.

00:14:08.880 Let's go back to when you started your own mortgage company until you had that issue.

00:14:13.060 When you started your mortgage company, what were some of the forms of creative financing

00:14:17.760 that you guys were doing?

00:14:18.540 Because I've heard many different forms.

00:14:20.700 What were some of the ones you guys did?

00:14:22.400 You know, the thing is a lot of people talk about the liar loans, which you were mentioning.

00:14:25.960 The problem with the liar loans is that typically the person still has to have decent credit.

00:14:32.840 You come on no income, no assets.

00:14:34.220 Right.

00:14:34.560 You still need to have a 720 or 680.

00:14:36.720 Right.

00:14:37.040 So if I've got some guy that works at Tire Kingdom who's got a 590, he's not getting a

00:14:42.480 liar loan.

00:14:43.140 But what I can do is I can get him a subprime loan if I can prove his income.

00:14:48.500 So we would change his W-2s and pay stubs to say he made enough money, and we would fake

00:14:56.540 his down payment.

00:14:58.100 So I created banks online.

00:15:00.000 I created banks.

00:15:00.920 I would make a website that said Bank of Ebor.

00:15:04.700 And you could go to the website and look at it.

00:15:06.800 It looked like a legitimate small bank, and I had bank statements.

00:15:10.880 And so if the underwriter asked for the bank statements, because you need to prove you've

00:15:15.640 had your down payment in the bank for 90 days, so this guy who works for Tire Kingdom, who

00:15:22.640 has bad credit and has been at three different jobs in the last two years, we would either

00:15:27.480 fix his credit, or I'm sorry, fix his W-2s so that he made enough money, or we would say

00:15:35.740 he worked at a place where he didn't work, but we said he worked there for five years.

00:15:39.600 And some friend of mine owned the business and would say that, and I'd come up with a

00:15:43.580 W-2s and pay stubs.

00:15:44.500 Got it.

00:15:45.000 They would verify his employment.

00:15:47.320 Then we would verify his down payment was in Bank of Ebor.

00:15:54.960 Well, there is no Bank of Ebor.

00:15:56.940 So if they said, well, we want bank statements, okay, we'd send them.

00:15:59.880 I had original bank statements.

00:16:01.240 I'd color bank statements.

00:16:02.320 They look perfect.

00:16:02.980 We'd send them to underwriting.

00:16:04.140 If underwriting called to verify it, someone would answer the phone, you know, Bank of Ebor,

00:16:09.160 hell may I help you?

00:16:10.160 Sure, hold on.

00:16:10.820 Let me get you Jennifer. 1.00

00:16:11.580 You've got to be kidding me.

00:16:12.060 Yeah, we'd get on the phone.

00:16:13.420 And the person Bank of Ebor is internally working for you?

00:16:16.540 No, no, there is no Bank of Ebor.

00:16:17.680 No, no, I totally get it.

00:16:19.120 But the person that would answer, this is Bank of Ebor, they're in your office.

00:16:22.680 Yes.

00:16:22.820 They would answer Bank of Ebor.

00:16:23.320 That's what I'm saying.

00:16:23.920 Yes.

00:16:24.140 Okay.

00:16:24.440 And back, you know, they're typing as if they're checking to see if this guy's a real guy.

00:16:28.160 Okay.

00:16:28.760 They fax over a verification of deposit if they have to.

00:16:31.220 I mean, it seemed very legitimate to Countrywide, who would then lend $190,000 on a house that

00:16:37.660 was worth $40,000, and we'd maybe put $10,000 into it.

00:16:41.900 So, you know, you end up making $100,000 to $150,000 for each loan.

00:16:46.620 And this guy's borrowing a million dollars like this, so we're making a chunk of money.

00:16:51.220 So the other part, you said the, what do you call it, the whiteout, you know, the whole

00:16:54.300 whiteout thing, which was very big.

00:16:55.640 I mean, that's what you did with Eagle, right, where you learned the one time, don't worry

00:17:00.620 about it, just do a whiteout and change it.

00:17:03.540 There was forgery, which you whiteout, put the signature in. 0.67

00:17:08.000 There was what you just did right now, what you talked about.

00:17:10.660 There was many different creative methods to getting financing done.

00:17:15.060 What were some other methods that you, you know, maybe you guys did or heard about that

00:17:18.980 was very unique that you don't quite often hear out there in the mortgage industry?

00:17:22.580 You know, the stuff that I did is so, it's just so, it's so over the top.

00:17:27.020 You can't, it's like, one of the things I did was to get, obtain financing was I would

00:17:32.860 satisfy the loans on my, on houses.

00:17:34.980 So I buy a house for, it's worth $200,000.

00:17:37.440 It's got a $190,000 mortgage.

00:17:40.080 I'd create a false satisfaction of, a false satisfaction.

00:17:44.740 And you, you know, when you, when you borrow money from Bank of America and you get a mortgage

00:17:48.040 on your house and it gets paid off, you paid it off.

00:17:51.100 How does public records know it was paid off?

00:17:54.200 Bank of America sends a satisfaction of mortgage saying, hey, you know, Patrick borrowed $200,000,

00:18:01.400 but he paid it off.

00:18:02.840 Here's the satisfaction proving he paid it off.

00:18:06.540 And then they record that and now it no longer exists.

00:18:09.880 It's there, but anybody who searches the title can see that there, that mortgage has been

00:18:14.600 satisfied.

00:18:15.760 Does, the question is when that document arrives, does anybody ever call at public records?

00:18:20.500 Does anyone at public records call Bank of America to verify that they mailed in that

00:18:24.640 document?

00:18:25.760 And the answer is no.

00:18:26.940 Till today.

00:18:27.980 Till today, as far as I know.

00:18:29.500 I mean, I've talked to a couple of title guys.

00:18:31.280 It was a couple of years ago.

00:18:32.020 I talked to a guy that in prison that worked at a title company.

00:18:35.440 He said, oh, absolutely not.

00:18:36.420 Nobody's, nobody's verifying those.

00:18:37.940 He goes, it's a recording system.

00:18:39.940 So what I would do is I would borrow money, $200,000 on a piece of property.

00:18:45.100 Then I would create that, a satisfaction of mortgage from the lender.

00:18:49.400 Let's say mortgage warehouse, for instance.

00:18:51.440 So I create a satisfaction of mortgage from mortgage warehouse.

00:18:54.420 And I've done them from everybody.

00:18:55.780 Bank of America, Wachovia, Countrywide, SunTrust, tons of them.

00:19:01.800 So I would then go downtown.

00:19:04.000 I'd say, hey, man, listen, they mailed me this.

00:19:06.140 But I called them and asked them what it was.

00:19:07.620 They said they were supposed to mail it to you.

00:19:09.000 And public records would say, oh, you're right.

00:19:11.680 This happens sometimes.

00:19:12.700 And they would go ahead and record it.

00:19:14.600 And so the document gets mailed back to the person that created it.

00:19:19.460 Well, of course, that's countrywide.

00:19:21.440 But they don't know.

00:19:22.940 There's 40,000 countrywide addresses out there, probably not.

00:19:27.140 Probably, let's say, 400.

00:19:28.120 They don't know where they're mailing it.

00:19:30.140 It says, return to sender countrywide.

00:19:33.020 And then it's got an address.

00:19:33.920 Well, I just give an address to a vacant house.

00:19:36.080 So they'd mail it to a vacant house.

00:19:37.520 I'd go a couple days later and pull it out.

00:19:38.980 I've got it.

00:19:39.720 It's recorded.

00:19:40.660 Now, when I call the lawyer's title and say, hey, can you pull the title on my house

00:19:44.600 to see if anything shows up?

00:19:46.180 They pull the title and they go, yeah, you don't have anything on your house.

00:19:49.260 Does a mortgage show up?

00:19:50.240 No, there's no mortgages.

00:19:51.480 Great.

00:19:52.020 I then turn around and I go to SunTrust Bank or whoever I want.

00:19:55.240 And I say, look, I need to borrow $200,000 on my house.

00:19:57.420 They order a title.

00:19:59.740 Their title comes back and says, nothing's on, no title on your, nope, no mortgage on your house.

00:20:05.760 Great.

00:20:06.020 I need to borrow $200,000.

00:20:07.660 They go, sure, no problem.

00:20:08.800 They pull my credit.

00:20:11.200 They lend me the money.

00:20:12.260 I borrow the money.

00:20:12.900 I borrowed a million dollars, like five mortgages on my own personal residence, like a million

00:20:16.940 dollars on a house that honestly wasn't worth $200,000.

00:20:20.240 I borrowed, I borrowed one point, was it, was it $900,000?

00:20:26.060 About $900,000 on a house.

00:20:28.280 Another one, I borrowed about $400,000 or $500,000 on a few different houses that were only worth

00:20:32.600 the $100,000.

00:20:33.100 You've got three or four mortgages on them just by satisfying the loan or by doing shotgunning,

00:20:38.200 which is when you satisfy the loan on a house.

00:20:41.240 So I don't owe anything on this house.

00:20:42.740 I probably do, but I satisfy the loan.

00:20:44.440 So what I do is I turn around and I go to four different lenders or five different lenders,

00:20:47.960 and I apply for loans at all the lenders at the same time.

00:20:50.860 They all search the title for the house.

00:20:53.100 There's nothing on the house.

00:20:53.960 There's no mortgage showing up on the house, and they all lend me money.

00:20:57.940 Well, they mail in their documents.

00:21:00.340 So when they arrive, two arrive on Monday, one arrives on Tuesday, one arrives on Friday.

00:21:05.020 All the clerk does is record it.

00:21:07.480 They scan it.

00:21:09.080 It shows up.

00:21:09.680 They scan it.

00:21:10.280 They show it.

00:21:10.880 It doesn't matter if there's five different mortgages showing up.

00:21:13.420 It's not illegal.

00:21:14.820 The clerk isn't.

00:21:15.660 It's not her responsibility to say, hey, this is odd.

00:21:18.520 There's five mortgages on this house.

00:21:20.040 The point is is that every closing I go to, I walk away with a check for $150,000.

00:21:24.660 So now I've borrowed $600,000 on this house that's worth $150,000 or $200,000, and it's called shotgunning.

00:21:31.400 So now I've got $600,000.

00:21:32.680 I deposit it in the bank.

00:21:33.480 I pull out all the money within a month or two.

00:21:34.880 I don't ever have to make a payment because I just take off because I probably did it in somebody else's name or some fictitious person.

00:21:41.420 I've done that.

00:21:41.960 When I was on the run, I did that over and over again.

00:21:44.840 So it was easy $400,000 you were making.

00:21:46.800 Oh, yeah.

00:21:47.200 It was like a million.

00:21:47.980 I did $1.3 million.

00:21:49.840 I did $900,000 one time.

00:21:51.580 I did $400,000.

00:21:53.100 When I took off on the run, I had, I always say this, I had no money.

00:21:56.360 I had about $80,000.

00:21:57.620 But to be on the run with $80,000, that's nothing, the way I was spending money at the time.

00:22:01.780 So I went straight to Atlanta.

00:22:03.180 I got like $400,000.

00:22:05.600 I rented a house, satisfied the loan, borrowed $400,000, pulled the money out of the bank, took off.

00:22:11.860 But I didn't borrow it in my name, obviously.

00:22:14.200 It was fictitious.

00:22:16.060 Now, this is pretty crazy stuff.

00:22:18.580 I want to get a little bit deeper into it.

00:22:20.180 But let's go back to the part where you're getting socials under the age of 12.

00:22:25.560 You're going in.

00:22:26.340 Here's the ID.

00:22:27.180 You give the fake ID.

00:22:28.120 Yes, we see it.

00:22:28.900 Then they send you the social to an address that you're staying at.

00:22:31.260 You use the social.

00:22:32.220 You go get five credit cards.

00:22:33.800 Then you're building credit.

00:22:34.760 You go to $680,000, $720,000.

00:22:35.960 Then you go get a house.

00:22:38.120 The ID that you use to get the social, is that a fake ID that you're using?

00:22:43.320 Initially, it was that I was using fake IDs.

00:22:46.240 But then fairly quickly, I realized it was easier just to get the DMV to issue me the driver's license.

00:22:54.800 The real ID.

00:22:55.500 The real ID.

00:22:55.980 For the kid under 12 years old, under 12 months old.

00:22:58.620 Well, keep in mind, when I create their credit profile, I don't put the age of a 12-month-old or a 10-month-old kid.

00:23:06.700 I put that he's a 34 or 33-year-old man.

00:23:11.160 Well, even if it shows up in the credit profile, when they pull it, fraud alert.

00:23:17.980 Social security number just issued within the last year.

00:23:22.280 You know what happens?

00:23:23.020 You know how many times I've been there when somebody's pulled it and they've looked at it and they've gone, that's weird.

00:23:28.180 There's a fraud alert here.

00:23:29.740 Really, what is it?

00:23:30.300 Trust me, if you're in a bank using a fake ID and the loan officer says to you, huh, that's strange.

00:23:39.840 That's not something you want to hear.

00:23:41.280 I mean, it's taken everything in me not to just bolt out of the door.

00:23:45.240 I'm already terrified.

00:23:46.760 So I'm sitting there and then you've got the loan officer going, huh, that's strange.

00:23:51.180 And I go, oh, well, you know, what is it?

00:23:53.840 And they're like, it says fraud alert.

00:23:56.200 And I'm like, really?

00:23:57.420 And they're like, yeah.

00:23:58.260 I'm like, huh, well, why?

00:24:00.060 And they go, well, it says that your social security number was issued within last year.

00:24:03.560 Really?

00:24:04.720 That is strange.

00:24:05.420 And this is your social?

00:24:06.360 Yeah.

00:24:07.200 You've got my two years W-2s.

00:24:09.160 They go, yeah, that is strange.

00:24:12.020 Huh.

00:24:12.880 And they go, well, and you've always used, absolutely.

00:24:16.680 You've got my driver's license.

00:24:17.660 They're like, yeah, okay, yeah, that is.

00:24:19.780 That's weird.

00:24:20.180 Okay, so anyway, they just keep right on going.

00:24:22.100 I've never once had a loan turned down because of that.

00:24:23.840 How many times has this happened?

00:24:24.740 That's happened a few times, two or three times.

00:24:26.360 Two or three times has this happened?

00:24:27.420 They could have done anything.

00:24:28.520 They could have called, I think there's uscitizen.gov, which verifies your social date of birth and everything else.

00:24:34.680 They could have done anything.

00:24:35.560 They just went, huh.

00:24:36.980 I mean, I have so much documentation.

00:24:38.780 And there are lots of fraud alerts that come up.

00:24:41.000 Every time you alter your name in any way, it says fraud alert.

00:24:44.460 Because it'll say Matt B. Cox, Matthew B. Cox, fraud alert, two different names.

00:24:49.040 Got it.

00:24:49.880 Or, you know, M. Cox, fraud alert.

00:24:52.360 Well, this is the date of birth.

00:24:54.920 And it doesn't really have a, it just says issued recently.

00:24:57.940 It doesn't seem right because I pulled his credit.

00:25:00.720 And on the credit report, although it does say fraud alert issued, but then it also says that his date of birth is 1971 or 1969.

00:25:09.780 So that doesn't make sense.

00:25:10.800 So they disregard it right away because you're sitting there in front of them.

00:25:13.860 And I'm a clean cut guy.

00:25:15.440 And I don't appear to be nervous or leaving.

00:25:17.400 So I have all the right documents.

00:25:19.200 And if you need to talk to your boss or whatever, we need to get this thing care of.

00:25:22.960 Let's get going.

00:25:24.100 Yeah, I'm good.

00:25:24.720 Thanks.

00:25:25.000 They just keep going.

00:25:26.580 I've had that happen a bunch of times.

00:25:27.660 So when you're using, when you get a social for a kid less than 12, say 10 months old, it's a fake social day you're getting.

00:25:36.420 When the bank gets the social on there and the bank runs credit and credit comes up, or even a credit card company, MB&A, Visa, MasterCard, American Express, whatever ones it is.

00:25:48.820 When they do the social, they're not checking how old the person with the social security is?

00:25:55.200 I mean, no.

00:25:57.160 I mean, they're, no.

00:25:58.620 Well, let me get this straight.

00:25:59.560 So I can write out the application myself, and I can say same name.

00:26:05.660 Everything's the same as a social, right?

00:26:07.660 And I use that 10-month-old kid social to get a credit card.

00:26:11.360 But I can put age 34, but on here to get the social, he's 10 months.

00:26:15.980 The creditor that gives me the credit card for $500 or $1,000 or $200, they don't have a way of verifying whether this person, fictitious character, is 34 years old or 10 months old?

00:26:27.860 No.

00:26:29.160 First of all—

00:26:29.880 You know what I'm asking.

00:26:30.520 I understand what you're asking.

00:26:31.500 Well, there's two different scenarios here.

00:26:33.440 One is, let's say, Matt Cox, myself.

00:26:35.440 Let's say I wanted to suddenly start using a different social security number.

00:26:38.340 I would have an issue because I already have a credit profile.

00:26:42.180 Yes, sure.

00:26:42.580 These guys don't have credit profiles.

00:26:45.080 Lee Black does not have a credit profile.

00:26:47.540 There's no Lee Black.

00:26:49.080 So I take Lee Black, a fictitious name.

00:26:51.660 I take an address.

00:26:54.100 I take a date of birth and a soc issued to a 10-month-old, and I run all of that.

00:26:59.200 I get that.

00:26:59.840 That creates a new profile that there's no disputing information to.

00:27:04.980 Now, in the public records, they say, hey, there's some guy out there named Lee Black.

00:27:09.200 He was born in 1970.

00:27:10.900 He's got this social security number, and he applied for a visa, and he lives at this house.

00:27:16.580 Now, maybe the visa says, no, we're not—they deny him because he has no credit.

00:27:19.940 Well, then they say, but you know what we will do, Mr. Black?

00:27:22.560 We'll give you a credit card if you'll give us $250, $250, $300, $400, whatever.

00:27:28.840 So I give him the $300.

00:27:29.640 Well, you can still build a credit with that.

00:27:31.200 Absolutely.

00:27:31.800 That's right.

00:27:31.960 In six months.

00:27:32.680 In six months, if I get two or three of those, in six months, I've got 700 credit scores.

00:27:36.720 I did it over and over again.

00:27:37.840 Well, Matt, what I'm asking for is the creditor, the bank, when they run a credit on you with

00:27:44.120 that social that you put 34 years old, Equifax, Experience, TransUnion, they don't report back

00:27:50.840 the age that matches the age that was put on the application?

00:27:54.200 No, there's no way for them to verify with Social Security other than to know that the

00:27:57.480 Social Security number was recently issued, and there's only one of the three agencies

00:28:00.580 that even checks, and they'll say, hey, this was recently issued, and the worst case

00:28:05.620 scenario they'll do is say, can you send us a copy of your driver's license?

00:28:10.340 That's crazy to me.

00:28:11.120 So you make a copy of the driver's license.

00:28:12.660 You know how many times they would say, we're not, they would pull the credit, and they'd

00:28:16.460 say, hey, this is a, this is a, like a UPS box, right?

00:28:21.320 But you have a, like, let's say you go to UPS, you get a real address, but it says box number

00:28:26.740 200, and they would say, hey, this is a UPS store, and I would say, no, it's not, and they'd

00:28:31.420 say, well, give us a, give us a water bill, and I'd say, sure, and I'd give them

00:28:35.520 a water bill with a house address, and they'd go, boy, that's weird, we have this listed

00:28:40.240 as a UPS.

00:28:41.800 Okay, yeah, and they'd still mail it.

00:28:43.720 You know it's a UPS box.

00:28:45.900 You're mailing it just because I gave you a utility bill.

00:28:48.820 They have little things that they ask for.

00:28:51.200 People just, if you're really saying it's a residence, they don't want, they want to

00:28:54.200 mail it to a residence and not a UPS box, then they ask you for something.

00:28:58.760 If you can provide it, you're good, they just mail it, and I'm making the payments for

00:29:02.700 so long, and then something happens.

00:29:05.380 The guy gets into a car.

00:29:06.420 You know how many times I had guys, three or four houses are going to foreclosure.

00:29:10.620 The mortgage companies are writing letters.

00:29:15.080 They're writing letters saying they're going to, you're going to put you in collection,

00:29:19.360 we're going to foreclose.

00:29:20.260 I would make a copy of a five-car pileup where somebody had been life-flighted out, and

00:29:26.760 I would make a copy of it.

00:29:27.980 I'd retype it, and I'd put my guy's name in it.

00:29:30.020 Then I'd write a letter with a copy of that from his sister saying he's in critical condition.

00:29:36.100 The doctors say even if he comes out of the coma, he'll never work again.

00:29:39.100 You might as well just take the house.

00:29:40.440 They stopped coming around.

00:29:42.440 I mean, most people, they stop paying and they run.

00:29:46.800 I would stop paying, but then I'd confront you and say, this is the reason, this is what's

00:29:50.940 going on.

00:29:52.260 I'd say, hey, I'm thinking about going into bankruptcy.

00:29:54.280 I'd write a letter back.

00:29:55.000 They just go away.

00:29:57.100 Most people take off, and that makes them think something's wrong.

00:30:01.220 But if you can say, keep in mind, too, if they called their employer, their employer says,

00:30:05.120 no, he no longer works here.

00:30:06.960 They don't just stop answering the phone.

00:30:08.780 He doesn't work here anymore.

00:30:10.300 Then they get a letter saying he was in a car accident.

00:30:13.980 So, I mean, of course they're going to say, they've got a reason.

00:30:16.780 So they go away.

00:30:18.120 Now we understand what happened.

00:30:20.100 He was in an accident.

00:30:20.920 It happens.

00:30:21.440 He lost his job.

00:30:22.200 It happens.

00:30:23.180 And they go away.

00:30:25.240 So.

00:30:26.800 And I feel bad about that.

00:30:28.000 I see the look on your face.

00:30:30.640 I'm not worried about you.

00:30:31.480 I'm actually not processing it the way you think I'm processing it.

00:30:34.640 Look, I run a company, and for me, we're designing a software technology right now.

00:30:39.460 We're putting a few million dollars into it.

00:30:40.920 But it's all about creating rules so guys can't beat the system.

00:30:47.520 This isn't about what you're doing.

00:30:51.540 You know, like, for me, listen, I mean, obviously what you're doing is fraudulent.

00:30:54.760 You went and did your time 12 years in prison.

00:30:56.400 Right.

00:30:56.840 You did your crime, and you got the punishment for it.

00:30:59.740 Right.

00:30:59.860 That's what the law does. 0.71

00:31:00.600 You break the law.

00:31:01.140 You get caught.

00:31:01.660 You're going to go to jail.

00:31:02.380 It's just kind of how the system works.

00:31:04.200 Just like in the financial securities, you're going to lose your license, get terminated,

00:31:07.460 get fined, you know, all this stuff that you've got to do.

00:31:09.280 But I'm just wondering, what the hell kind of a system is it that somebody can run a credit

00:31:14.480 and it's not going to tell the bank that is trying to get financing from TransUnion, Equifax,

00:31:22.800 or Experian that this client, it just got their social, and the date of birth is, you know,

00:31:28.920 7-10-2019 rather than 7-10-1990.

00:31:35.900 It's a big difference between that, you know.

00:31:37.720 But all they know is it was issued within the last year, and they think that could be a mistake.

00:31:42.980 It must be a mistake.

00:31:43.980 He's got three credit cards.

00:31:45.800 The person that thinks this must be a mistake, how much is that person getting paid?

00:31:48.520 Is that a $35,000 a year person?

00:31:50.260 Yeah.

00:31:50.880 Okay.

00:31:51.320 I got it.

00:31:52.120 And probably makes money based on loans.

00:31:55.780 He knows I can get this guy a loan.

00:31:57.980 Is there a fraud alert?

00:31:59.080 Yeah, there's a fraud alert.

00:32:00.300 But I can get him a loan.

00:32:01.280 Got it.

00:32:01.680 If I just overlook that, so I'm going to overlook it because it doesn't make sense.

00:32:05.400 So, you know, years ago, Best Buy went away from commissions.

00:32:08.320 They stopped paying commissions on their sales guys because they weren't doing customer service.

00:32:13.100 It was just kind of like a cutthroat, and customers are kind of feeling like it's a little too competitive.

00:32:18.020 Right.

00:32:18.160 So they went to a different model.

00:32:19.220 I think Nordstrom's did this as well at one point.

00:32:22.040 They wanted more to be, hi, man.

00:32:23.240 How are you?

00:32:23.720 How's everything?

00:32:24.740 I'll spend a little bit more time talking to you.

00:32:26.400 I like the shirts.

00:32:27.120 How's family?

00:32:27.720 Everybody good?

00:32:28.300 Yeah.

00:32:28.640 What can I help you with?

00:32:29.780 Yeah, let me see.

00:32:30.320 Okay, I'll show you around.

00:32:31.180 So they paid a little bit more salary, but no commissions because their motive was they

00:32:35.440 don't want to be the cutthroat environment.

00:32:37.160 Sometimes certain people you don't pay commissions to.

00:32:39.300 Like those types of guys that are positioned that way where they are willing to get the loan to go through,

00:32:44.860 that's a guy that shouldn't be getting commission.

00:32:46.820 It should be just you're doing your job is what you're doing.

00:32:49.220 And your job is more to play defense than to play offense.

00:32:51.380 So the comp structure for those guys I don't think is set up properly.

00:32:54.960 Okay, so now let's go back to where you are.

00:32:57.460 You're now.

00:33:00.720 You know, I was thinking about one of the things you asked me when it was a creative financing was

00:33:03.720 one of the things that people do.

00:33:05.500 I'm sorry.

00:33:06.180 It just dawned on me that my brokers would do is they would say that the guy was owner-occupying a property

00:33:12.500 that he wasn't owner-occupying.

00:33:13.860 So if I'm buying a duplex, I can get 80% financing from Countrywide because it's an investment property.

00:33:23.540 If I say I'm going to live there, I can get 95% to 100%.

00:33:27.020 So all you have to do is your borrower says he lives there.

00:33:31.520 So I remember one time we did, not once, we did this multiple times.

00:33:34.900 I remember one time we must have done eight different loans at one time.

00:33:40.500 I still remember the broker's name that did it, but I'm not going to say his name.

00:33:43.120 He did eight owner-occupied properties, duplexes, all at the same time with eight different lenders for one woman.

00:33:54.280 And her husband was a sheriff's deputy.

00:33:57.920 And one time I think we did six loans for also duplexes, owner-occupied, and for a realtor,

00:34:05.580 for a big-time realtor in Brandon, Brandon's outside of Tampa.

00:34:12.260 We did that a lot.

00:34:14.980 And one time we did it, and two of the loans happened to be on the same credit line.

00:34:21.340 So one was a big bank, which was like Washington Mutual.

00:34:25.100 Their credit line was a smaller company.

00:34:28.080 We didn't know it was just an extension of Washington Mutual, essentially.

00:34:31.740 They were using their credit line.

00:34:33.140 So Washington Mutual ended up with two of the same loans.

00:34:35.980 So they ended up calling the broker and saying, look, we got two owner-occupied duplexes.

00:34:41.200 What's going on?

00:34:42.000 She comes in my office. 0.93

00:34:43.340 She's like, oh, man, we got a problem.

00:34:45.520 And I'm like, what's up?

00:34:46.260 She's like, this guy, he's a lawyer for Washington Mutual.

00:34:48.440 He's threatening to sue me.

00:34:50.200 Put him on the phone.

00:34:50.880 I get on the phone.

00:34:51.780 We talk a little bit.

00:34:52.620 He threatens to call the FBI.

00:34:53.880 And I tell him, look, you don't want to call the FBI.

00:34:55.760 Who knows who was at your company that might have been doing something wrong?

00:34:58.440 I don't know what my broker is doing.

00:35:01.140 Let's figure this out.

00:35:02.220 So he lets us refinance it.

00:35:03.900 They actually discounted.

00:35:06.140 They gave us a short pay.

00:35:08.020 Short sale?

00:35:08.620 Short sale.

00:35:09.080 Yeah.

00:35:09.620 So we didn't have to pay them the whole $95,000.

00:35:12.380 They drop it to like $80,000 something.

00:35:14.440 Because we couldn't get the same type of loan.

00:35:16.120 They took a huge cut.

00:35:17.520 And they paid my broker a commission to refinance the loans.

00:35:21.360 And they sent her flowers when it was all said and done.

00:35:24.860 It was, it was, that's in the book.

00:35:27.580 I remember it was so funny.

00:35:28.980 I mean, it's not funny.

00:35:29.960 It's horrible.

00:35:30.580 But it was like shocking because he just had us over a barrel.

00:35:34.400 But they didn't, you know, they just want to, they just want to pass.

00:35:37.560 Just, let's just get through this and move on.

00:35:39.160 Let me ask you, rates being so low, when you were running and mortgage boom was crazy, were

00:35:46.040 rates anywhere near where they are today?

00:35:49.200 No.

00:35:49.860 Nothing?

00:35:51.700 No, no.

00:35:52.300 They were still, they were 5, 6, 7%.

00:35:54.540 Yeah.

00:35:55.580 So, so, so let me.

00:35:56.500 And subprime was way higher.

00:35:58.000 So subprime's even higher than that.

00:36:00.100 Subprime was way higher than that.

00:36:01.360 Yeah, they're at least, at least a couple, at least 200 basis points higher.

00:36:05.300 So if it's, the rate's 5%, it's 7 or 7 and a half or 8 or 9.

00:36:09.700 But I mean, what do I care?

00:36:10.580 I'm only going to make a few payments.

00:36:12.640 So for you, it's a completely different world.

00:36:14.140 Yeah.

00:36:14.700 So how much, how much of your sale was to a real customer?

00:36:18.200 How much of it was just pure market manipulation and, and, and putting packages together?

00:36:22.040 You mean when I was on the mortgage company?

00:36:23.480 Yeah.

00:36:24.340 Were you actually having a lot of real loans coming in?

00:36:26.980 Oh yeah, yeah.

00:36:27.580 Yeah.

00:36:27.680 But it was, I'd say, let's say it's, let's say it's 50-50.

00:36:33.700 I mean, we had, we were, I was an FHA approved lender.

00:36:36.640 You know, we were doing, we were doing conventional FHA approved, VA approved.

00:36:41.440 I mean, it, it was a, part of it was a legitimate company.

00:36:45.580 But the fact is, if you had a pulse and you walked in my place, you're, if you walked in

00:36:50.700 that door and you had a pulse, you're getting a loan.

00:36:52.540 You're getting a loan.

00:36:53.180 You're getting a loan.

00:36:53.660 If you had a pulse.

00:36:54.120 Unless you just, unless you decide not to.

00:36:56.940 If you come in, I want this house, this is what I want, this is what I can, I'm going

00:37:00.040 to get you that house.

00:37:00.820 Got it.

00:37:01.160 I'll do whatever I got to do.

00:37:01.900 Got it.

00:37:02.400 How much are you, how much is your legitimate income coming in at that time?

00:37:08.620 I mean, I, maybe 40, 50%.

00:37:10.920 And what would that look like?

00:37:12.520 500 grand a year?

00:37:13.740 Me?

00:37:14.200 Yeah.

00:37:14.880 Oh no.

00:37:15.360 No, I'm not making that.

00:37:16.160 This is Tampa, Florida.

00:37:17.400 This is 15 years ago, Tampa, Florida.

00:37:18.660 200 grand a year.

00:37:19.700 Yeah.

00:37:20.020 Okay.

00:37:20.260 200, 250.

00:37:20.860 I got it.

00:37:21.400 200 grand.

00:37:21.880 So you have a good life.

00:37:22.660 You're not making, because you said the loans are 50 grand, 100 grand, 150 grand.

00:37:26.100 So you're not doing.

00:37:26.940 There's not, there's not a, there are a couple, you know, 200,000, 250, 300,000, but there's

00:37:31.080 not a lot.

00:37:31.640 And are you getting correspondence at the back end, on the back end, or not at that time?

00:37:34.920 Yeah.

00:37:35.220 Three quarters of a point?

00:37:36.840 We're getting a yield spread.

00:37:39.620 They call it yield spread.

00:37:40.800 It's like one or two points.

00:37:42.240 You can get, hey, listen, when I first started, you could get like two or three points.

00:37:45.080 Yeah, I remember that.

00:37:45.460 And they got down to the point where they were like, this is just too much.

00:37:48.080 They were doing one or two.

00:37:49.260 They didn't need to do it.

00:37:50.100 And they felt like they had to do it.

00:37:51.620 And it was getting even more money coming in.

00:37:54.800 Got it.

00:37:55.560 Now, let me ask you, would you consider yourself a better salesperson or more at a dealmaker?

00:38:03.180 What would you consider yourself?

00:38:04.840 I mean, I think I'm a good salesperson, but I think, like I had a, I wrote a story about

00:38:09.820 a guy named Vitaly.

00:38:11.460 And Vitaly ran a, basically like a boiler room type situation where it's just high pressure,

00:38:16.340 lots of high pressure.

00:38:17.200 You know, they, they push and push and push until you close and that's not my style.

00:38:21.780 My style is more, it's more value.

00:38:23.640 It's more, this is why the product is a good product.

00:38:26.180 This is why you need the product.

00:38:27.340 This is, this is what it can do for you, you know, and you need to make a choice.

00:38:31.700 And if it's, no, forget it.

00:38:32.840 I'm not going to, I'm not interested.

00:38:34.220 Okay.

00:38:34.400 I totally understand that.

00:38:35.360 I wish you the best of luck.

00:38:36.500 I hope you do find the product that you want and we move on.

00:38:39.300 Maybe I call them back in a couple of days.

00:38:40.620 Maybe they call me back.

00:38:41.640 Maybe it's, it doesn't work out at all, but I'm not a high pressure guy.

00:38:45.300 It's more like you have to believe in your product and you have to know the value of the product.

00:38:50.080 That's, that was more my sales technique.

00:38:53.040 Keep in mind that in the mortgage company, it's, it's, this is what we're charging.

00:39:00.540 This is why we're charging it.

00:39:01.860 And if you think you can go to Bank of America and get 130% LTV loan that doesn't exist, by all means go.

00:39:10.000 But they're going to throw you out.

00:39:11.340 You're coming right back here.

00:39:12.140 You know, and, and of course they are coming right back.

00:39:15.060 And they, when they walked in the door, like I said, 50% of them roughly already knew they had an issue.

00:39:21.820 They'd been somewhere else.

00:39:22.960 Got it.

00:39:23.300 Somebody directed them to me.

00:39:24.740 So were you more D paper or were you actually doing A and Bs as well?

00:39:28.200 We were doing A and B.

00:39:29.260 We were doing, you know, like I said, FHA approved.

00:39:31.960 We were doing conventional loans.

00:39:33.740 We were doing, I wasn't doing those.

00:39:35.240 We had certain brokers that enjoyed, liked doing those.

00:39:38.220 Literally, if I, you came in and you had all of your docs and you were this perfect 750, perfect documentation client.

00:39:48.800 It was like, okay, call Susan.

00:39:53.400 I'm not, this is not for me.

00:39:55.340 I'm not interested in doing this loan.

00:39:57.180 You're going to argue about the interest rate.

00:39:58.800 You're going to argue about how much, what my broker fee is.

00:40:01.660 You're going to nitpick about, you know, the home inspection.

00:40:05.400 You're, you're a problem.

00:40:06.760 I'll take the guy from Tire Kingdom or Walmart that knows he's been beat up. 0.74

00:40:11.160 He's got some dings in his credit and he thinks I'm Superman because he's thinking this guy can do anything.

00:40:17.180 I've already been turned down by two banks.

00:40:18.700 No way I'm getting the loan.

00:40:19.780 Got it.

00:40:20.760 That makes sense.

00:40:21.520 What do you, so you were saying right now you're doing the script writing, you're doing all that other stuff.

00:40:26.600 Can you right now work for somebody else or no?

00:40:29.380 Can somebody hire you and start selling or no?

00:40:32.220 Sure.

00:40:32.720 Yeah, I can, I can work for someone.

00:40:34.100 Absolutely.

00:40:34.380 I've been offered jobs.

00:40:35.600 I just can't, like, like I said, I can't move.

00:40:38.660 I'm, I have to stay in Tampa.

00:40:41.340 You know, my, my mom, she's like, listen, she's 90 years old.

00:40:44.780 She's in a home.

00:40:46.440 I had lunch with her.

00:40:48.100 I have breakfast with her four days a week.

00:40:49.720 I typically have dinner once or twice a week.

00:40:52.300 I don't live very far from her.

00:40:54.800 And like I said, I mean, it's, I just can't, I was offered a job in Seattle.

00:41:00.240 I've been offered jobs or in Los Angeles.

00:41:03.160 I got a buddy that is in, he was in Atlanta when he offered me the job, but now he's offered me a job in Nashville.

00:41:09.480 I can't go, you know.

00:41:11.320 So, I mean, I have to stay in Tampa because of my mom.

00:41:13.820 Because your mom. 0.99

00:41:14.240 Yeah, she, like I said a minute ago, she, she came, and this is a woman that came to see me every two weeks the entire time I was down through breast cancer, through a stroke. 0.92

00:41:34.040 My brother would say, mom, you're sick.

00:41:39.600 Maybe you shouldn't go this week.

00:41:41.000 And she would say, well, I'm sick, but we're going.

00:41:44.400 And he'd say, well, you know, you get so tired.

00:41:46.620 She goes, well, then I'll sleep in the car.

00:41:49.140 We're, we're going. 0.98

00:41:49.880 So, you know, I, you know, like I said, I've been enough of a shit of a son that the least I can do is hang out, you know, as long as I can, as long as necessary.

00:42:04.200 So, you know, moving's not an option. 0.99

00:42:06.620 If I, I have to live in someone's spare room, I've got to drive a piece of shit Jeep, well, then that's what's got to happen, that I'm hanging out as long as I can. 0.92

00:42:13.700 And in the meantime, I write synopses, I write books, that's, that's what I'm doing to get by. 0.95

00:42:19.400 So, it, you know, it's, it's an issue, but, you know, I'm making it work.

00:42:24.560 Mom passes zero judgment to you. 1.00

00:42:27.840 No.

00:42:28.260 Oh, she, she loves me.

00:42:29.240 She, she, yeah, she's, she's, she's good.

00:42:35.120 Yeah, she's, she's good.

00:42:36.700 How, how was she when you were growing up?

00:42:38.360 How was your relationship with her?

00:42:39.320 I know you were saying your dad, you know, three months is good, then he goes on two weeks.

00:42:43.560 Yeah.

00:42:43.820 And, and then he goes back to being normal again.

00:42:45.720 How was she when you were growing up?

00:42:47.060 Oh, I mean, she was, she's a rock.

00:42:49.840 You know, everybody thinks their mom's a saint, you know, but she, yeah, she was, she, she was the glue that held our, our entire family together.

00:42:56.860 When she's talking to you, is she telling you, hey, you know, Matthew, is she telling you, hey, be good, please don't go back and do it again?

00:43:06.340 Or no, it's just relationship, conversations, life, nothing like that.

00:43:09.580 Oh, when I visit her now?

00:43:10.380 Yeah, yeah, yeah, just curious, like.

00:43:13.140 She, I'm, you know, she's, you know, it's, it's always, you know, you know, she's, you know, you always hear about the Jewish mother, right? 0.81

00:43:21.920 You know, but the Catholic mother is just as bad. 1.00

00:43:24.440 You know, it's the, oh, you don't have any, you don't have any collared shirts?

00:43:28.000 I'm like, no, mom, I have collared shirts.

00:43:29.280 You don't wear them.

00:43:31.240 I'll wear a collared shirt next time.

00:43:32.940 You know, she's like, you know, oh, so you're not shaving anymore?

00:43:35.660 We're growing a beard?

00:43:36.480 Is that what you're doing?

00:43:37.280 And I'm like, no, I'm shaving.

00:43:39.240 I'll do it.

00:43:39.880 Well, next time.

00:43:40.400 So next time you'll be shaved.

00:43:41.620 Yes, ma'am.

00:43:42.140 I will be shaved next time.

00:43:42.980 I mean, it's constantly, what are you doing for, oh, you're, you're painting?

00:43:47.700 Oh, okay.

00:43:48.820 Okay.

00:43:49.320 And that's working?

00:43:50.660 You're selling those?

00:43:51.460 I mean, she's, you know, and there's money. 0.79

00:43:54.300 I'm selling books, mom.

00:43:55.320 I've written the books.

00:43:56.220 And there's money in that?

00:43:58.180 It's not a lot of money, you know, but she's, yeah, she's, she's awesome. 1.00

00:44:03.640 That's cool.

00:44:04.420 That's cool.

00:44:05.340 And so long term, you want to be in the world of writing books and do, turning those into

00:44:10.340 documentaries, movies, that's what you want to do long term.

00:44:12.440 That's what I want to do.

00:44:13.360 Listen, the average writer on the street is constantly trying to get to the guys that are

00:44:20.860 in prison to get to the good stories.

00:44:23.340 While I was in prison, I got four and five guys a day coming up to me, telling me their

00:44:28.400 stories.

00:44:28.900 That's a good, good way of putting it.

00:44:30.460 Right.

00:44:30.680 So the guy, they can't get to, they've got to write a letter.

00:44:33.620 They got to ask them to add them to their core links.

00:44:35.860 Can you email me?

00:44:36.640 Can you write me a letter back?

00:44:37.800 My guy just has to meet me in the library, tell me a story.

00:44:40.740 And so every day I'm hearing stories and I'm like, look, you got a drug story.

00:44:44.540 I understand what happened. 0.69

00:44:46.020 I know it's fucked up, but I've got like six of those stories and it's just not, there's 0.84

00:44:51.480 nothing unique about it or you didn't steal enough money or it's not. 0.95

00:44:54.440 So I'm looking for unique stories that are over the top or just extremely unique.

00:44:59.100 So they're worth writing.

00:45:00.000 It's worth dedicating two or three months to write a synopsis.

00:45:02.620 Plus I have all these guys, I have all of their documents.

00:45:08.220 Most of these guys are fighting their case.

00:45:09.520 So as opposed to some guy sitting down with me, just telling me the story and you, like

00:45:14.540 a reporter, you can verify a little here and a little there.

00:45:17.600 I've got your entire, I've got your, I've got your, your indictment.

00:45:23.500 I have your FBI interviews.

00:45:26.180 I've got the police reports.

00:45:27.800 I have the transcripts.

00:45:29.520 I can verify everything.

00:45:30.900 I know what you're saying is true.

00:45:32.840 That gives you more credibility as a writer when you write it and they're going to have

00:45:35.820 more interest in it, more interest in it.

00:45:37.880 Right.

00:45:38.180 Hopefully.

00:45:38.440 Who were you in high school?

00:45:40.900 I was troubled.

00:45:42.280 I was a kid, I had a learning disability.

00:45:44.780 My dad was an alcoholic.

00:45:46.400 I mean, it was, you know.

00:45:47.620 But were you, were you selling weed?

00:45:49.340 Were you, were you the guy, were you in the gangs?

00:45:51.640 Were you, were you a 4.0 GPA guy?

00:45:54.740 Were you, you know.

00:45:55.540 No, I was, I was getting C's in high.

00:45:58.300 I went to a school with about 25 kids in it.

00:46:00.940 Private.

00:46:01.540 Private.

00:46:02.040 Kids with learning disabilities.

00:46:03.040 And I end up graduating there, barely, I mean, with C's.

00:46:10.200 End up going to college and got a degree in fine arts.

00:46:13.660 You said USF?

00:46:14.500 What was it?

00:46:14.900 USF.

00:46:15.240 Yeah.

00:46:15.340 It did great at USF.

00:46:19.340 But, you know, like I said, when I graduated, I just, there wasn't much I could do in the

00:46:23.200 business world.

00:46:24.080 But who were you?

00:46:24.800 Like, meaning, did you have a temper?

00:46:27.280 Were you not good with authority?

00:46:29.500 Did you get pissed off with your dad?

00:46:31.080 Did you have a falling out with your dad?

00:46:32.460 Did you have a point to prove?

00:46:33.560 You were like, screw the world.

00:46:34.740 What, what, what, which one were you?

00:46:36.720 No, I mean, I definitely wanted to try and get respect from my father.

00:46:41.180 He was a big influence in my life, but he was an alcoholic.

00:46:46.340 He was a, he would go on binges, like two, three week binges, and then he'd be sober for

00:46:50.220 three months and be a great guy.

00:46:52.000 But he was belligerent.

00:46:53.980 He, my mom used to call him, he'd give you a tongue lashing. 0.98

00:46:56.660 He wouldn't spank you or anything, but he, he'd talk to you like you were just a dog.

00:47:00.420 So, you know, and, you know, and I've got, I've got a learning disability.

00:47:05.580 I've got, I go to school with very little kids and there are only a few kids that are

00:47:08.760 even close to my age.

00:47:09.560 They're spread out throughout Tampa.

00:47:11.040 So I don't really have a lot of friends.

00:47:12.740 So, I mean, it's, it's, you know, I would say I'm, I was a troubled kid, but I wasn't

00:47:16.720 getting in trouble.

00:47:17.680 I wasn't.

00:47:18.240 Not a drug guy.

00:47:19.040 No, never, never into drugs.

00:47:20.780 Nothing like that.

00:47:21.680 Yeah.

00:47:21.960 I had a lot of girlfriends.

00:47:22.940 Okay.

00:47:23.160 So you were, were you a party guy or no?

00:47:25.280 No.

00:47:25.740 Not really?

00:47:26.560 No.

00:47:26.720 Just girlfriends?

00:47:27.380 Just girlfriends.

00:47:28.300 Sports?

00:47:28.660 I'm five foot six.

00:47:30.800 That's not a lot.

00:47:31.860 Baseball, second base.

00:47:33.220 There's no sports.

00:47:33.880 It's a school.

00:47:34.340 It's got 25 kids.

00:47:35.140 I got it.

00:47:35.780 Got it.

00:47:36.420 And movies, music.

00:47:37.580 What's your inspiration?

00:47:38.380 Like, what are you reading?

00:47:39.180 Are you, are you a?

00:47:40.440 I'm not reading anything.

00:47:41.780 I've got a learning disability.

00:47:42.960 I'm watching TV.

00:47:43.720 I'm watching movies.

00:47:44.600 What are you watching?

00:47:45.140 Lots of movies.

00:47:46.540 You know, at that, at that age, what am I watching?

00:47:49.340 Gosh.

00:47:49.820 I'm just curious, like, what stuck with you?

00:47:51.480 Like, what inspired you?

00:47:52.940 Are you a Rocky guy?

00:47:54.080 Are you a, you know, Godfather guy?

00:47:57.000 Are you?

00:47:57.300 No, I mean, I've definitely seen all the Godfathers, you know, obviously.

00:48:01.620 Who hasn't?

00:48:03.060 Was there a character like, man, I like this guy, because this guy gets away with everything.

00:48:06.580 Was there something?

00:48:07.320 You know, I would, see, all of that, I'd say, happened when I was older.

00:48:09.900 It became crime movies.

00:48:11.420 I loved, you know, The Score.

00:48:16.040 I loved, uh...

00:48:16.800 Sick movie.

00:48:17.780 Huh?

00:48:18.360 It's a great movie.

00:48:19.300 Yeah, yeah.

00:48:20.420 Matchstick Men.

00:48:21.320 You know, Catch Me If You Can.

00:48:24.260 The Heist, you know, Grifters. 1.00

00:48:26.740 I mean, you know, those types of movies.

00:48:27.800 I got it.

00:48:28.240 This makes sense.

00:48:29.080 Love those movies.

00:48:29.960 Were you a, what was that, the story of Hughes?

00:48:32.880 Were you a Howard Hughes guy or no?

00:48:34.680 Oh, yeah, I did see the movie.

00:48:36.520 But were you a fan of his or no?

00:48:38.600 Only from what I saw from the movies.

00:48:40.100 Okay.

00:48:40.660 So, Catch Me If You Can.

00:48:41.720 I mean, that's a sick story, you know, to be a true story.

00:48:44.660 And eventually, FBI hires him to help him catch the guys.

00:48:47.860 Right.

00:48:48.100 When you watch that, you're like, wow, this guy didn't get away with anything.

00:48:50.700 This guy, he was amazing.

00:48:52.140 He was an amazing story.

00:48:52.920 So, to you, he was an amazing story.

00:48:54.340 Yeah, absolutely.

00:48:54.840 How old were you the first time you watched that?

00:48:57.400 How old was I?

00:48:58.400 Was I in my 20s?

00:48:59.800 20s when you saw that?

00:49:00.100 I was in my 20s, yeah.

00:49:01.480 So, was there a, screw the bank.

00:49:04.220 They already have so much money. 0.99

00:49:05.340 I don't give a shit about the bank. 0.99

00:49:06.700 Was it, you know, the hell with these, you know, people that are doing countrywide. 0.99

00:49:13.420 They're already screwing people anyway. 1.00

00:49:14.820 So, what's wrong with me making some money?

00:49:17.220 Was there any of that or no?

00:49:18.840 You're just kind of like, I'm just trying to make money to have fun.

00:49:21.000 I want to say it's a combination.

00:49:22.760 One, I, listen, no scruples at all about taking money from the bank.

00:49:25.760 I had no problem.

00:49:26.480 I didn't see that.

00:49:27.320 Saw it as an institutional crime.

00:49:28.580 I didn't see it as hurting anybody.

00:49:30.800 And, you know, there are people that will drastically disagree.

00:49:34.560 But what I stole, I felt like, was a pittance.

00:49:39.080 So, I had no problem at all with it.

00:49:42.300 You know, and listen, like I said, to be honest, it's a huge thrill.

00:49:45.920 And it does, it absolutely, you know, made me feel like, I mentioned this too, sorry,

00:49:54.220 in the book I was talking about.

00:49:55.700 You feel like James Bond.

00:49:57.380 You walk into the bank and you provide them with fake ID, social security card, fake W-2s,

00:50:03.080 fake pay stubs, and they're calling you Mr. Black the entire time.

00:50:05.760 And then they cut you a check for $250,000 and you walk out of the bank and they thank

00:50:09.420 you for being a great customer.

00:50:11.160 I mean, that's 007 stuff.

00:50:14.280 I mean, you feel amazing.

00:50:16.260 I'm walking, I've got fake passports.

00:50:17.880 I'm walking through customs, Mr. Carter, Mr., you know, so-and-so, and they're looking

00:50:23.680 at my document.

00:50:24.240 These are state, these are issued by the U.S. State Department going in and out of the

00:50:28.600 country with different passports.

00:50:30.240 So, it's an amazing feeling.

00:50:33.780 You know, I... 1.00

00:50:34.880 It's the thrill of getting away or is the thrill of making them look like an idiot? 1.00

00:50:39.480 I think it's getting away. 1.00

00:50:42.860 It's definitely getting away with because I'm not around for anybody to look bad.

00:50:45.440 So, it's getting away with it.

00:50:47.340 And this is the thing about the money, too, is that I'm not a flashy guy.

00:50:50.600 Like, I never had a Lamborghini.

00:50:52.780 I wasn't driving a Porsche.

00:50:54.220 I'm driving a $40,000 or $50,000 sports car and I'm perfectly happy.

00:50:58.180 I'm not flashy.

00:50:59.260 I don't want...

00:51:00.220 Didn't want a bunch of attention.

00:51:01.720 I want a pretty girlfriend and a decent vehicle and that's it.

00:51:04.700 Even when I have a million dollars in the bank, I'm driving a $50,000, $60,000 truck.

00:51:10.480 I'm not trying to drive a Ferrari.

00:51:13.500 It just wasn't my style.

00:51:14.700 I'm not looking for the attention.

00:51:16.580 Are you running with a crew?

00:51:18.480 Like, are you partying with a group of you?

00:51:20.280 Well, by the time I start my own mortgage company, we have a fairly tight-knit group.

00:51:25.880 And everybody's kind of...

00:51:27.720 You know, they all know you've got realtors.

00:51:30.560 You've got a group of realtors.

00:51:31.640 You've got a couple of appraisers.

00:51:32.740 You've got some underwriters that you're dealing with.

00:51:34.700 I bought an underwriter.

00:51:37.600 He wanted...

00:51:38.320 What did he want?

00:51:38.860 We were giving him a couple...

00:51:39.680 Two, $300 every time a loan went through.

00:51:41.520 We ended up giving him...

00:51:43.020 He worked for United Capital Lending, I think.

00:51:47.580 We gave...

00:51:48.360 I got him a compressor.

00:51:51.300 Like a... 0.97

00:51:53.020 He was a gay guy. 0.91

00:51:54.000 It was a silver compressor with, like, red interior. 0.96

00:51:57.660 I thought it looked horrible.

00:51:59.800 He said, I want this car.

00:52:00.940 You get me that car.

00:52:02.000 You make all the payments.

00:52:02.960 You give me the car.

00:52:03.500 He said, everything you have goes straight through.

00:52:06.380 It did, too.

00:52:07.380 It was a good six months.

00:52:10.060 So...

00:52:10.340 Everything you put, it's going to go through.

00:52:12.680 Provided it looked right.

00:52:14.040 Like, I mean, he's getting it.

00:52:14.720 He's saying, look, change this.

00:52:15.860 Call the appraiser.

00:52:16.600 He's fixing it.

00:52:17.340 And he's like, send it to me.

00:52:18.440 Now it's...

00:52:18.700 Anything happen to him when you got caught or no?

00:52:21.180 I have no idea.

00:52:22.120 When you went down, did a lot of people go down or no?

00:52:24.340 No.

00:52:24.740 Because what happened was when I took off on the run, because I was on the run for three

00:52:28.300 years.

00:52:28.640 So while I was on the run, the FBI was waiting to catch me.

00:52:33.160 So they're investigating, but they're really waiting to catch me.

00:52:36.560 Because everybody's just going to blame me.

00:52:39.100 So they're thinking, if we catch Cox, now you can't blame Cox, because we're going to

00:52:43.340 give this guy...

00:52:44.000 We're going to threaten to give this guy 50 years.

00:52:46.080 He's going to give up everybody.

00:52:47.880 So you guys are all...

00:52:49.060 So these guys are giving me up.

00:52:51.240 As I'm...

00:52:52.040 They're talking to them.

00:52:52.760 They're all saying, it was Matt.

00:52:53.840 I didn't know.

00:52:54.440 It was Matt.

00:52:54.980 I didn't know.

00:52:56.440 So they're thinking, when we grab him...

00:52:58.040 And listen, when they grabbed me, they had a stack.

00:53:00.420 You know what FBI 302s are?

00:53:01.960 That's the name of the interviews that they get.

00:53:06.940 They call them FBI.

00:53:07.620 It's a 302.

00:53:08.240 I had 302 forms, and I have MOI forms, a memorandum of interviews from the Secret Service.

00:53:15.380 And I mean, I had a stack.

00:53:16.960 Everybody had given me up.

00:53:18.920 But of course, most of them had given me up by covering themselves.

00:53:23.720 Yes, I did this, but Matt had told me...

00:53:26.680 He told me this.

00:53:28.180 So I didn't know.

00:53:29.860 So I wasn't aware of what he was doing.

00:53:33.120 So, yeah.

00:53:33.900 Sorry.

00:53:38.740 I was just...

00:53:39.460 Crazy, crazy stuff.

00:53:40.820 When you were on the run for three years, are you...

00:53:43.780 At what point did you know you were on the Secret Service wanted list?

00:53:47.280 Like, at what point was it when you were like, okay, oh my gosh, these guys are really after me?

00:53:50.060 Oh, yeah.

00:53:50.800 I had gone to...

00:53:53.660 Well, when they came to get me, it was a sheriff's deputy that came and told me, look, FBI's formed a task force.

00:53:59.700 Well, there was a task force formed by the FDLE, Florida Department of Law Enforcement.

00:54:04.900 They handed it to the FBI.

00:54:06.160 It was already on...

00:54:07.120 I'm already on probation.

00:54:08.440 Remember?

00:54:09.300 I told you I got...

00:54:10.340 I lost the mortgage company.

00:54:11.400 I started this huge scam.

00:54:12.420 Went for about a year and a half, two years.

00:54:14.480 Got 11 and a half million dollars.

00:54:16.580 Or borrowed 11 and a half million dollars.

00:54:17.940 We're all making good money.

00:54:19.240 But suddenly, on like a Thursday, this sheriff's deputy shows up and says, listen, I used to date this chick on the... 0.97

00:54:26.700 Works for Tampa PD.

00:54:27.900 He was with Hillsborough County.

00:54:28.980 He said, she came to me because I'd done a bunch of loans for him.

00:54:32.100 Came to him in the morning, early one morning, like 6 o'clock in the morning.

00:54:35.080 He said, look, your buddy Matt Cox is going to be arrested in the next few days.

00:54:38.760 I worked on a task force.

00:54:39.900 We just handed it over to the FBI.

00:54:41.460 They're going to arrest him in the next couple days.

00:54:43.060 So he tells me that on a Thursday.

00:54:45.220 So I have literally an hour left in the day and the whole next day to get out as much cash as I can because I'm thinking I'm leaving.

00:54:52.900 I'm already on federal probation.

00:54:54.780 The judge is not going to be happy.

00:54:56.820 So I'm definitely going to prison.

00:54:58.180 I can't go to prison.

00:54:59.440 Look at me.

00:55:00.640 I mean, I'm too cute to go to prison.

00:55:02.840 This is not going to work out well for me.

00:55:05.260 So, I mean, I've seen Shawshank.

00:55:06.860 I know what happened.

00:55:08.120 So I'm ready to take off.

00:55:10.460 So I...

00:55:11.060 Within a day or so, I get like 80 grand out in cash.

00:55:17.780 This is the one you were talking about.

00:55:18.800 Right.

00:55:19.480 So I go straight to...

00:55:21.100 I've got this girl with me named Rebecca Houck. 0.95

00:55:24.680 I'd been dating her a couple months.

00:55:26.720 I barely know her.

00:55:27.860 She desperately wants to come with me.

00:55:29.760 She's in love.

00:55:30.760 She's wonderful.

00:55:31.600 Everything's great.

00:55:32.200 And she was.

00:55:32.680 She had held it together pretty well for a couple months.

00:55:36.140 And she knows what's going on.

00:55:37.160 Oh, she knows 100% of what's going on.

00:55:39.000 And so we take off.

00:55:40.480 I don't realize that she's bipolar.

00:55:43.340 She's not taking her meds.

00:55:45.180 She's within...

00:55:46.100 We're not even out before we start.

00:55:47.680 We're at each other's throats. 1.00

00:55:48.600 She's nuts. 0.94

00:55:49.960 So I get 80 grand out. 0.96

00:55:51.860 We take off on the run.

00:55:53.120 We go straight to Atlanta.

00:55:55.060 We rent a house.

00:55:56.660 I satisfy the loan on the house.

00:55:58.300 I borrow about $400,000.

00:56:00.340 I pull the cash out of the bank.

00:56:03.160 It's funny because I was thinking a minute ago.

00:56:08.640 I was thinking one of the stories I was going to tell you was that one time I had gone to...

00:56:14.780 I was cashing checks for like $8,000, $9,000, trying to stay under the $10,000.

00:56:19.840 And so at one point, I get a check for like $29,000. 0.67

00:56:22.140 And I think, man, this is ridiculous. 0.80

00:56:23.860 You know, I'm sick of this. 0.96

00:56:24.560 We're going in here and here.

00:56:25.400 It's going to take another month.

00:56:27.100 So I said, I'm going to start cashing larger checks.

00:56:29.780 And she's like, don't do it.

00:56:31.200 And I said, no, it's okay.

00:56:32.760 I'm going to cash it.

00:56:33.480 So I go in.

00:56:34.660 I had stolen a guy's name by the name of Scott Cugno.

00:56:37.180 And I'd gotten an Alabama driver's license issued to him.

00:56:39.740 So I have a real ID.

00:56:40.920 I have a real social...

00:56:41.840 A real ID.

00:56:42.800 Everything's real.

00:56:44.020 So I go in the bank, give him the cashier's check that had been issued by the title company.

00:56:49.400 When I refinanced the property, I had them issue the title, the checks in a different

00:56:52.780 guy's names.

00:56:54.220 Larger amounts.

00:56:55.600 One of them was $29,000.

00:56:56.940 Most of them were $8,000 or $9,000.

00:56:58.260 One was $29,000.

00:56:58.840 So I go in.

00:56:59.260 I say, hey, my name's Scott Cugno.

00:57:00.260 I need to cash this check.

00:57:01.920 They go, well, that's odd.

00:57:03.620 And I was like, well, okay.

00:57:04.480 They said, why don't you put it in your bank?

00:57:05.420 And I said, well, because my bank's in Florida.

00:57:06.760 And they're going to hold it for who knows how long.

00:57:08.740 This was 15 years ago.

00:57:11.000 So they go, well, this doesn't make sense.

00:57:12.980 And I go, well, you know, this is a cash transaction bank.

00:57:17.320 You can give me that.

00:57:17.920 Yeah, we do large transactions.

00:57:18.920 Okay, let's talk to the manager.

00:57:20.680 Manager comes out.

00:57:21.760 He says, okay.

00:57:22.780 He says, what's going on?

00:57:23.640 I said, look, I need to cash the check.

00:57:25.080 And he goes, okay.

00:57:25.760 So he takes the check and my ID and my credit card and he leaves.

00:57:30.000 And I remember Becky, the girl I was on the run with, she calls me up.

00:57:33.020 She's calling.

00:57:33.520 What are you doing?

00:57:34.200 I go, what's taking so long? 1.00

00:57:35.420 The guy's being in a jerk. 0.99

00:57:36.840 He's waiting. 0.99

00:57:37.300 He's doing verifications and stuff.

00:57:38.740 I don't know.

00:57:39.360 She's like, okay, well, if the cops show up outside, call me.

00:57:44.160 And so I hang up.

00:57:45.860 We wait.

00:57:46.540 We wait.

00:57:47.660 Guy comes back and he goes, okay, Mr. Cugno, I have a question for you.

00:57:50.660 He said, how did you get the check issued to you?

00:57:52.320 And I went, well, it was issued.

00:57:54.420 A guy refinanced his house and he paid me the check.

00:57:56.500 Okay, why?

00:57:57.080 And I went, well, not that it, you know, it wasn't in any of his business, but it wasn't

00:58:00.960 a hard question.

00:58:01.540 So I'm like, I'm trying to alleviate his anxiety.

00:58:04.000 So I said, well, I'm adding an addition onto his house.

00:58:08.200 And this is part of the draw.

00:58:10.440 And he goes like, that makes sense.

00:58:12.180 It does make sense.

00:58:12.900 And I was like, right.

00:58:13.840 He goes, okay.

00:58:15.620 He leaves five minutes later.

00:58:17.620 She's still calling.

00:58:18.480 What's going on?

00:58:19.200 I don't know.

00:58:19.720 He's got my stuff.

00:58:20.640 He's like, get out of there.

00:58:21.380 No, I can't.

00:58:21.960 He's got my stuff.

00:58:23.140 I can't leave.

00:58:24.980 Hang up.

00:58:25.520 He comes back.

00:58:26.000 He goes, what are you going to do with cash?

00:58:28.080 And I go, are you serious?

00:58:28.980 And he goes, well, I'm just, you know, it's just, I feel apprehensive about this.

00:58:32.380 And I went, well, I'm going to cash a lot of the guys' checks.

00:58:36.140 We give them checks.

00:58:37.020 And they don't have bank accounts because, you know, they just don't.

00:58:39.540 They're laborers. 0.93

00:58:40.160 And we're going to cash some of their checks.

00:58:41.900 And he goes, okay, that makes sense.

00:58:44.040 Leaves, comes back.

00:58:46.060 Finally comes back.

00:58:46.900 And I said, hey, what's going on?

00:58:48.140 You know, and he says, listen.

00:58:49.020 He said, I just, we're just doing a series of checks to verify things.

00:58:52.820 And I go, okay.

00:58:53.880 And he says, I said, well, what are you doing?

00:58:57.000 He said, it turns out that this check was issued on a house owned by a Michael Shanahan.

00:59:04.980 And I was like, right, right.

00:59:06.760 And he goes, he said, right.

00:59:07.880 So we're just trying to verify that Michael Shanahan issued the check.

00:59:11.660 That's all.

00:59:12.760 Well, there's a real Michael Shanahan.

00:59:14.860 And I'm thinking, oh, my God.

00:59:17.700 Well, that's not good.

00:59:18.980 And I'm like, okay, okay.

00:59:20.220 So he leaves.

00:59:20.960 Becky calls.

00:59:21.440 What's going on?

00:59:21.900 They're trying to call Michael Shanahan.

00:59:23.020 She's like, get out of the bank. 1.00

00:59:24.940 And I'm like, I can't. 1.00

00:59:25.780 This guy's got my shit. 1.00

00:59:26.960 I leave the bank for sure. 1.00

00:59:28.120 They're calling the cops.

00:59:28.980 I have to wait.

00:59:29.960 Hang up the phone.

00:59:31.040 A minute later, my phone rings.

00:59:32.440 I look at it.

00:59:33.020 I don't recognize the number.

00:59:34.140 I pick it up.

00:59:34.720 And I go, hello.

00:59:36.040 And there's a woman like, hi, this is Kimberly from SunTrust Bank.

00:59:39.880 Is this Michael Shanahan?

00:59:42.380 I'm like, yes, it is.

00:59:44.880 And she goes, hi, we have someone here at the bank trying to cash a cashier's check

00:59:49.080 that was drawn from the title company.

00:59:53.060 And I'm like, okay.

00:59:54.200 And they said, how much was the amount?

00:59:57.260 I said, yeah, that was Scott Cugno.

00:59:58.360 It was about $29,000 even, I think.

01:00:00.480 And she says, that's right.

01:00:02.460 Thank you very much, Mr. Shanahan.

01:00:03.600 I said, hey, how did you get my number?

01:00:05.140 Because if you called information, you would have got his real number.

01:00:08.220 And I go, how did you get my number?

01:00:09.220 Oh, we called the title company.

01:00:11.400 They looked on the application that I had filled out, and I'd used the cell number.

01:00:14.580 And they said, we just got it off of there.

01:00:15.680 I hope it's okay.

01:00:16.260 No problem.

01:00:16.980 No problem.

01:00:17.460 Okay, thank you.

01:00:18.020 Boom.

01:00:18.340 Hang out the phone.

01:00:19.340 Five minutes later, still, the guy comes out with some woman, counts out the money to

01:00:24.480 me, gives me the money.

01:00:26.100 I stand up, and he says, Mr. Cugno, I would like to say that I feel very uncomfortable

01:00:32.300 about this transaction.

01:00:33.740 And I said, well, what is it exactly?

01:00:35.860 And he goes, you know, I can't put my finger on it.

01:00:38.060 And I said, well, it'll come to you.

01:00:42.080 And I walk off.

01:00:45.060 Listen, I was terrified. 0.99

01:00:47.760 Fucking terrified. 0.97

01:00:49.780 I like to think that when the Secret Service showed up, you know, five, six days later, 0.99

01:00:54.240 a week later, he realized I wasn't.

01:00:58.880 Wow.

01:00:59.360 So you leave.

01:01:00.280 Oh, I leave.

01:01:00.720 You're right at this point.

01:01:01.160 We cashed like $400,000.

01:01:02.500 We had $400,000 in a duffel bag.

01:01:04.700 And we leave.

01:01:05.160 But we're spending money like you can't believe. 0.94

01:01:07.860 I mean, it's ridiculous.

01:01:08.500 We're going to Jamaica. 0.90

01:01:09.360 We're going to Bermuda.

01:01:10.400 You're partying hardcore.

01:01:11.380 Yeah, we're going to Las Vegas. 0.99

01:01:12.900 This chick's a maniac. 1.00

01:01:14.600 She's nuts. 1.00

01:01:15.400 I mean, she won't. 1.00

01:01:16.220 I literally had to make her.

01:01:18.320 I threatened to leave her three different times.

01:01:20.440 I think I put two in the book.

01:01:22.340 She calls.

01:01:22.920 She begs.

01:01:23.340 I'm sorry.

01:01:23.880 I'm sorry.

01:01:24.240 I'm like, you've got to see somebody.

01:01:25.480 I get her to start taking Zoloft.

01:01:28.220 She takes it for about a month.

01:01:29.780 She stops taking it.

01:01:30.800 She doesn't like the way it makes her feel. 0.60

01:01:32.500 She goes nuts again. 0.99

01:01:33.280 She gets the cops called one day. 0.85

01:01:35.260 I mean, two o'clock in the morning.

01:01:36.420 I mean, it's, I mean, listen, it was a hostage situation.

01:01:39.980 I mean, it was.

01:01:41.100 This is the Becky girl.

01:01:42.080 Yeah, she was over the top. 0.99

01:01:44.380 Just insane.

01:01:45.900 Matt, are you at this point partying hardcore alcohol, drugs, rock and roll, or no?

01:01:50.200 You're still under control.

01:01:51.620 That's not you.

01:01:52.560 It's not me.

01:01:53.180 Okay.

01:01:53.720 My father's an alcoholic.

01:01:55.440 I don't drink.

01:01:56.860 I don't smoke.

01:01:58.660 At all.

01:01:59.240 At all.

01:01:59.900 Ever.

01:02:00.400 So you're under control.

01:02:01.740 You have control of your emotions because you're not.

01:02:04.100 I have a control issue.

01:02:05.360 I mean, I've got some.

01:02:06.640 I got, listen, I got major problems.

01:02:08.040 I'm a narcissist, antisocial.

01:02:10.360 I mean, I've got some issues.

01:02:11.740 Are you, July, is it July 2nd your, when's your birthday?

01:02:14.580 Yeah, July 2nd.

01:02:15.160 July 2nd's your birthday, yeah. 0.94

01:02:17.060 Narcissist. 0.99

01:02:17.520 And would you, would you consider yourself pathological liar as well or no? 0.99

01:02:21.460 No, no. 0.81

01:02:22.040 You wouldn't put yourself there?

01:02:23.260 No, absolutely not.

01:02:24.100 To be able to face some of these guys and stay that natural, like there's a fine line.

01:02:29.480 There's books written about sociopaths that they can just look at you and tell you, would

01:02:32.780 you say you're somewhat there or no?

01:02:34.400 Well, I'm not saying I'm not a sociopath.

01:02:35.760 What I'm saying is I'm not a pathological liar.

01:02:37.920 Pathological liars tend to, they feel good about lying. 0.58

01:02:40.900 They lie. 0.91

01:02:41.520 It's impulsive.

01:02:42.340 They almost can't control it.

01:02:43.640 Yeah. 0.90

01:02:43.800 Some of them, there are different versions of pathological liars. 0.67

01:02:46.080 I wrote a whole book on a guy named Marcus Schrenker who's a pathological liar.

01:02:49.240 And so I've read, I've read multiple books on the subject and studies and he's clearly 0.99

01:02:54.220 a pathological liar. 0.88

01:02:55.160 What's the difference in your eyes? 1.00

01:02:56.260 Pathological liar, sociopath. 1.00

01:02:57.960 What's the difference? 1.00

01:02:58.780 Well, most, almost, pathological liars are always, pretty much always sociopaths. 0.98

01:03:05.320 So you could be a sociopath and not be a pathological liar. 0.98

01:03:08.240 How is that? 0.87

01:03:08.740 Well, a sociopath is just somebody who has a, they are not, basically, you're like a 0.57

01:03:15.720 stick of furniture to me. 0.99

01:03:17.300 They have almost no empathy at all, no sympathy for anyone, no, well, but a pathological liar 0.91

01:03:22.020 is someone who can't control his ability to tell the truth.

01:03:25.260 He's impulsively just lying.

01:03:27.140 He enjoys lying. 0.60

01:03:28.240 He gets a thrill out of lying, out of fooling you.

01:03:31.520 My lies are simply designed to acquire money and move on.

01:03:36.660 I'm actually, matter of fact, a lot of the articles, if you read The Atlantic, a couple

01:03:41.260 of the different people that they talk to in my case, they say, the thing is, in Cox's,

01:03:45.440 in Matt's personal life, he's extremely an honest person.

01:03:50.360 It's only when it comes to running a scam.

01:03:53.560 So if I'm running a scam, of course, I'm going to tell you what I need to tell you to

01:03:56.340 acquire what I want.

01:03:58.480 But in my social life, I'm not going to lie to you.

01:04:02.100 I'll just tell you the truth.

01:04:03.340 This is what's going on.

01:04:04.320 You'll deal with it or you won't.

01:04:05.380 So sociopath to you is, there is no emotion. 0.99

01:04:08.900 You're a stick of furniture. 0.99

01:04:10.260 You're not, I don't.

01:04:11.060 I wouldn't say emotionless.

01:04:12.060 I mean, listen, there's varying degrees of everything.

01:04:14.880 There are people that are schizophrenic and they happen to have a little bit of paranoia

01:04:21.720 on one or two small subjects.

01:04:23.620 Then there are guys that are extremely delusional.

01:04:30.340 They just see things that aren't there.

01:04:31.760 They hear things that they believe, things that are just outrageous.

01:04:35.480 So there's always varying degrees.

01:04:36.940 From the moment you came in, you looked paranoid.

01:04:38.680 From the moment you stepped in, you were paranoid.

01:04:40.860 Oh, because keep in mind how this all occurred.

01:04:43.500 I literally got a couple emails and I had seen the program and I'd seen the same, Sammy the

01:04:48.320 Bull.

01:04:48.480 And I'd seen the other one, a part of another one.

01:04:52.560 I watched the whole thing, which we talked about, the guy with the-

01:04:56.340 Michael Francis.

01:04:57.060 Yes.

01:04:57.280 Yes.

01:04:57.580 Yeah.

01:04:57.900 Which was great.

01:04:58.740 He was great.

01:04:59.100 And so it happened very quickly.

01:05:04.400 And it was like, okay, there was, next thing I know, I'm walking in.

01:05:07.600 I mean, I got-

01:05:08.200 Did you think like I'm CIA or the FBI?

01:05:10.060 No, of course not paranoid.

01:05:10.740 But you were paranoid though when you came in a little bit.

01:05:12.720 Because I didn't, I thought at some point we would, somebody would say, hey, talk, you

01:05:19.380 know, ask me some questions.

01:05:21.100 You know, that like-

01:05:21.880 Pretty.

01:05:22.760 Yeah, of course.

01:05:23.460 I thought there would be some kind of a setup.

01:05:24.980 Instead, I didn't, I'm walking here, I'm still waiting like, okay, well, at some point they're

01:05:28.200 going to sit me down and say, okay, well, here's what we're, here's what we know.

01:05:31.280 Here's what we're going to fill in.

01:05:32.680 Here's what-

01:05:33.140 Instead, I walk in and it's, and it's like, sit down, I know everything about you.

01:05:38.360 Are you serious?

01:05:40.280 And then, and then Hawk is over here to your right.

01:05:42.800 Yeah, you got, yeah, the intimidation thing is, you know, I mean, it's a little shocking.

01:05:47.860 Wow.

01:05:48.260 Okay.

01:05:48.500 All right, my question would be, do you think today, are we set up in a way where a Matthew

01:05:56.080 Cox of 2020, March 2020 can be prevented from happening, or a Matthew Cox of today can still

01:06:03.740 do what you did in 2006?

01:06:05.740 No, I think, it's funny because I, I, I did another podcast, I did a podcast and the guy,

01:06:13.020 and they're, the comments are outrageous, but a lot of the comments are, oh, this could

01:06:18.020 never happen.

01:06:19.260 This could, no, it, nothing's changed.

01:06:22.320 You know, there haven't been, not like there's all these, public records is still recording.

01:06:26.820 Listen, in New York, they have a huge rash where people are simply just, they're finding

01:06:31.360 people's properties that have no mortgage on them at all.

01:06:34.600 And they're transferring the deeds to people to, to them.

01:06:38.020 They're like, they're doing a, a, a quit to claim deed to somebody that, like a buddy

01:06:42.680 of theirs, and then they're selling the property out from somebody because it happens to be

01:06:45.680 some abandoned house.

01:06:46.980 It's in decent shape.

01:06:48.040 They'll get access to the house.

01:06:49.280 They'll get an appraisal and they'll sell it.

01:06:50.380 I'm going to transfer the house from this person to you, record it. 0.90

01:06:53.820 Nobody's contacting the original owner.

01:06:55.640 Nobody's con, it's a recording system.

01:06:57.800 So, you know, that, those things are still happening.

01:07:00.980 Satisfying loans, that still happens.

01:07:02.600 In the way that I did it, the combination of, of the way, the combination of, of scams

01:07:08.820 that I, I used was unique.

01:07:11.680 So every time I did it, they very quickly zoomed in, you know, or connected it with me.

01:07:17.320 So which ones can't be done today?

01:07:19.680 I don't know that any of them couldn't be done.

01:07:21.620 Other than the fact that borrowing the money is more difficult, but it's not impossible.

01:07:26.680 The only difference is most of these loans now, instead of changing a W-2, typically they're

01:07:30.880 having you sign what's called an 88-21 form, and they're sending it off to the IRS to verify

01:07:35.320 your employment.

01:07:36.220 So they're saying, you said you made $75,000 last year.

01:07:38.920 You didn't.

01:07:39.640 That's a lie.

01:07:40.220 They're doing that now?

01:07:41.060 There's a lot of, most, most mortgage companies.

01:07:43.180 How much does that cost to the bank to do it?

01:07:44.860 It's almost free.

01:07:45.820 Oh, it's free.

01:07:46.360 Yeah, they send it to the IRS.

01:07:47.120 So why wouldn't all of them do it?

01:07:48.780 It's, it's more paperwork and it's, and I think if you're mailing off, if, if you're mailing

01:07:52.740 off 10,000 and one's coming back bad, is it really worth it?

01:07:56.120 I mean, most of these people, even the bad loans, a lot of them just pay.

01:07:58.300 Yeah, but I give you an idea on the insurance side.

01:08:00.260 On the insurance side, there's something called the Nexus, right?

01:08:03.020 So where they check what medication, like I can check, if you say I'm not on any medication

01:08:09.940 and I'm the insurance company underwriting you, right?

01:08:12.200 I can go through a testing center that, you know, reporting place that can send me an email

01:08:18.780 back and say, no, Matthew takes Zoloft, he's on, you know, Prozac and he takes this, this,

01:08:25.820 he takes blood thinner.

01:08:27.180 These are the things he's been on for the last six years.

01:08:29.120 Right.

01:08:29.260 Then I come back and I'm like, wait a minute, I can't give you preferred underwriting, right?

01:08:32.280 But that testing costs me 25 bucks to pay to that reporting agency.

01:08:38.840 So on the insurance side, sometimes people don't want to do it because they don't want

01:08:42.680 to pay 25 bucks times 10,000 policies.

01:08:45.760 That's a quarter million dollars a month of a cost.

01:08:47.460 That's $3 million.

01:08:48.280 I can keep that $3 million and put it for underwriters.

01:08:51.380 But you're saying on the mortgage side, there's no cost to it to find out from the IRS.

01:08:54.900 It's the IRS.

01:08:56.020 So I'm not sure that the IRS, the IRS.

01:08:57.440 Why wouldn't every bank do it?

01:08:58.880 IRS did not used to charge.

01:09:01.200 Do they charge now?

01:09:02.320 I don't know.

01:09:02.820 You don't know.

01:09:03.360 But I don't think so.

01:09:04.060 Okay.

01:09:04.460 So let me ask you this other question.

01:09:05.700 Let me ask you this other question.

01:09:07.440 This other question is, which part of the things today?

01:09:11.220 I know you said some of it, like the IRS of verification.

01:09:14.160 So if it's not being fixed today and everything you did can be done today, if all of it can

01:09:21.300 be done today, who's at fault here?

01:09:24.560 Meaning, you know, when you're in the sales world, the processor wants it to be funded

01:09:31.060 just as much as the loan officer does, right?

01:09:34.260 And whether it's the title, the appraisal guy making $450 or titles making $1,700, $2,000

01:09:40.080 depending on the side of the loan, there's a lot of people that want to get this loan

01:09:43.540 to be funded.

01:09:44.500 The only person that takes the hit is when Whamu realized China's no longer buying their

01:09:48.160 paper on the back end and they shut it down and Whamu goes from being a $330 billion company

01:09:52.600 in 2005 to being sold to Chase for $1.9 billion.

01:09:55.540 So really the only person that takes a hit on the back end is the one that can't sell

01:09:59.600 the paper.

01:10:00.060 Kind of like that one guy that the $2 million, they sold at $4 million and they come back.

01:10:04.260 But my question is, because there's so many people that have their hands in the candy

01:10:10.380 jar, like everybody's getting a piece of it, does anybody want all of this to be stopped?

01:10:14.940 And if yes, who?

01:10:16.220 Well, I can't imagine.

01:10:18.420 First of all, I mean, fraud just, they love to throw like the numbers.

01:10:22.480 It's $3 billion or trillion dollars.

01:10:25.620 Yeah.

01:10:25.860 But overall, it's very little.

01:10:28.600 The percentages, it's not even like 1% is fraud.

01:10:31.280 I mean, it's so minor that why would you spend all of this money when the actuaries have already

01:10:39.160 accounted for a certain amount of fraud?

01:10:42.000 So if we know there's going to be a certain amount of fraud, we account for it.

01:10:45.160 What is the real incentive to try and fix it?

01:10:47.160 It's a marketing loss, the way they would look at it.

01:10:49.000 Right.

01:10:49.460 Form of a marketing loss.

01:10:50.760 Right.

01:10:51.200 What's the big deal?

01:10:52.300 We're good.

01:10:52.960 It's really not hurting us.

01:10:54.360 We can bitch and complain, but the truth is, it's really not damaging.

01:10:57.720 And it's more, I think, it's more trouble to put up all these things.

01:11:02.600 Regulations.

01:11:03.200 Over-regulated.

01:11:04.280 Right.

01:11:04.420 Now a lot of these individual people are going to get hurt.

01:11:07.880 The people that actually need the loans aren't going to be able to get the loans because we're

01:11:11.200 trying to stop all this fraud.

01:11:12.480 But the truth is, the fraud really isn't harming us as much as it is, as much as people think.

01:11:17.520 So flip the coin.

01:11:18.320 FBI hires you, okay?

01:11:19.980 And they say, come on in.

01:11:21.300 We want you to help us out.

01:11:22.940 We want you to catch the modern-day Matthew Cox.

01:11:25.560 Would you know exactly how to catch all of them?

01:11:27.440 Would there be trends that you can-

01:11:28.700 But there's not.

01:11:29.640 By the time I've done what I'm doing, by the time I've done my scam, I'm already gone.

01:11:37.520 How do you detect that scam?

01:11:39.640 Unless you want to revamp the entire-

01:11:41.600 Most of these guys are greedy, though.

01:11:42.700 It's tough to kind of leave and be gone, right?

01:11:44.480 That's the biggest temptation of a scam artist because he can't-

01:11:47.100 It's always the next hit is the last hit, like the movie Carlito's Way, right?

01:11:50.380 Where he's like, well, you know, babe, this is the last one I'm doing, and then we're

01:11:52.620 going to go and live over there.

01:11:54.240 Listen, even I have the same thing.

01:11:56.380 I was on the run three years.

01:11:59.740 Dateline was coming out.

01:12:01.800 I'd just been in Fortune Magazine had just done a piece on me.

01:12:05.060 So I was in Bloomberg Businessweek, did two pieces.

01:12:08.100 Fortune Magazine, there were 30-some-odd articles in the St. Pete Times.

01:12:12.140 Chicago Tribune did.

01:12:13.460 That's the whole time I'm on the run.

01:12:15.780 So I know it's coming down, and I know that Dateline was about to come out, and I'm ready

01:12:20.700 to go.

01:12:21.140 I'm leaving.

01:12:22.420 And I'm thinking, I'm just going to pull out $2 or $3 million, and I'm leaving.

01:12:25.820 And I don't make it to that.

01:12:28.040 Let's say I had gotten, I like to think that would have been it.

01:12:31.620 You think so.

01:12:32.640 I like to think so.

01:12:33.600 But you know what?

01:12:34.120 Let's face it.

01:12:35.040 Almost every time I did something, that was it.

01:12:37.620 Because you're greedy, or you're overconfident.

01:12:41.360 Look, I'll tell you one time.

01:12:43.800 One time I go to, I'm on the run.

01:12:46.100 I was on the Secret Service's most wanted list, by the way, at this point.

01:12:49.100 What year is this?

01:12:50.000 06 or 05?

01:12:50.820 This is 04.

01:12:51.820 No, no, no.

01:12:54.200 This is 05.

01:12:56.800 I'm going to say this is 05.

01:12:57.340 Peak of the mortgage industry.

01:12:58.740 Right.

01:12:58.940 0405.

01:12:59.720 Right.

01:13:00.280 I have gone to Las Vegas with Becky.

01:13:02.780 Okay.

01:13:03.960 At this point, I'm surveying homeless people to get their information.

01:13:09.000 I've come up with a survey form that says, we're surveying homeless people to determine

01:13:13.280 where we're going to place our next homeless facility.

01:13:15.940 I work for the Salvation Army.

01:13:17.420 I've got a little badge.

01:13:18.720 I know it's horrible.

01:13:19.560 I feel bad.

01:13:20.460 So, stop judging me.

01:13:22.040 So, um...

01:13:23.040 Creative.

01:13:25.560 Creative.

01:13:26.000 They have no idea.

01:13:27.320 They're good for 20 bucks.

01:13:28.240 They're filling out the form.

01:13:29.380 I order all your stuff.

01:13:31.060 I got your high school transcripts.

01:13:32.420 I got everything.

01:13:33.260 I then go in the DMV.

01:13:34.600 I get a driver's license.

01:13:35.740 I'm driving.

01:13:36.160 I buy a car in your name.

01:13:37.780 I don't even need the...

01:13:38.660 You know, of course, I go to Social Security.

01:13:40.960 I get a Social Security issued.

01:13:42.400 So, I've got clean Social Security.

01:13:44.420 I got credit.

01:13:45.780 I got a house.

01:13:46.840 I got whatever I want in your name.

01:13:48.320 You're some guy that lives under a bridge in Las Vegas.

01:13:50.340 Now, I'm in South Carolina.

01:13:52.900 I remember the guy...

01:13:54.080 This is funny because the guy had gotten in Las Vegas.

01:13:59.200 I meet him.

01:14:00.460 While I'm doing the survey, I ask about...

01:14:02.820 Does he have any...

01:14:04.240 Yeah, a criminal record.

01:14:05.280 He says he's got several arrests for prostitution.

01:14:08.300 But they were misdemeanors.

01:14:09.880 I said, okay.

01:14:10.500 He's a male... 1.00

01:14:10.780 I go, so you're a male prostitute? 1.00

01:14:12.300 He's like, yeah. 1.00

01:14:12.760 I was like, oh, okay.

01:14:14.140 Whatever.

01:14:14.500 So, I take the thing.

01:14:15.280 I go to South Carolina.

01:14:16.420 I go to DMV.

01:14:17.500 I get a driver's license in his name.

01:14:19.760 I then go buy two houses.

01:14:22.560 And then after I buy those houses, I satisfy the loan in his name.

01:14:25.800 Satisfy the loan in both those houses.

01:14:28.280 I then go to multiple mortgage companies and I borrow money on the houses.

01:14:32.520 One of them, I borrow like $300,000, $400,000.

01:14:34.960 The next one, I borrow like close to a million dollars on the house.

01:14:37.540 Their house is only worth $200,000.

01:14:40.080 I go in the bank.

01:14:41.040 I'm cashing checks.

01:14:42.220 I'm pulling out $400,000, $500,000, $600,000 over the course of a few weeks.

01:14:47.960 Becky, by the way, the whole time, every time I would go into a bank, this is not all the

01:14:52.740 time, but a lot of times, she would say, what happens if you get arrested?

01:14:56.280 And I would say, if I get arrested, they'll be arresting me as, the guy's name was Gary

01:15:00.980 Sullivan.

01:15:01.520 They'll be arresting me as Gary Sullivan. 0.98

01:15:03.160 The male prostitute. 0.99

01:15:03.980 The male prostitute. 0.99

01:15:04.980 They will not run my prints right away because my identity is not in question.

01:15:09.760 Back then, they didn't have the scanners.

01:15:11.760 So they're not going to run, they'll scan you, but it doesn't necessarily run it through

01:15:15.080 APHIS.

01:15:15.780 So that's a new thing they're doing.

01:15:17.100 They've got scanners now.

01:15:18.160 Right.

01:15:18.380 Well, they didn't, at the time, they had them, but it wasn't, they weren't.

01:15:21.120 I said, look, the worst that'll happen, I get arrested.

01:15:23.560 It'll be a minor charge.

01:15:25.260 Get me a lawyer.

01:15:26.060 Get me out on bail.

01:15:27.380 We'll take off.

01:15:28.440 She goes, okay.

01:15:28.960 So I go in the bank one day, I go into a Wachovia. 1.00

01:15:34.280 I'm waiting to get cashed a check for like six grand.

01:15:37.440 And I cashed, pulled out $50,000, $60,000 out of that account.

01:15:41.920 I had like eight accounts.

01:15:43.580 Well, next thing I know, bam, a cop walks up, they grab me from behind, they arrest me.

01:15:48.420 They walk me in the back.

01:15:49.960 I'm done.

01:15:50.460 That's it.

01:15:50.900 I already know I'm on the Secret Service's most wanted list.

01:15:53.500 This is it.

01:15:54.600 They take me in the back, they sit me down, all the customers are looking at me.

01:15:57.320 Guy says, Mr. Sullivan, we're waiting for the detective to show up.

01:16:02.580 I'm thinking detective, okay, that's like FBI or something, I guess.

01:16:05.440 He's coming.

01:16:06.600 Well, then this cop comes in and he says, hey, I'm with the Richmond County Sheriff's Department.

01:16:14.000 We understand, you know, Wachovia's fraud department called us.

01:16:18.300 They said, you're running some kind of a scam.

01:16:20.940 You're pulling out cash.

01:16:22.000 I go, are you serious?

01:16:22.840 He goes, you know, I said, look, man, am I under arrest?

01:16:24.920 He's like, no.

01:16:25.400 I said, well, I feel like I'm under arrest.

01:16:26.860 And I show him my cops and he goes, oh, take those off him.

01:16:30.620 Takes them off me.

01:16:31.980 They call the Wachovia head of security.

01:16:34.220 He's on the phone.

01:16:35.280 He says, okay, now what's going on?

01:16:36.960 He's borrowed how many loans?

01:16:38.480 He says, you've got three loans on the house.

01:16:40.240 I actually had like six.

01:16:42.080 They only caught three.

01:16:44.060 And I said, oh, okay.

01:16:45.260 I said, yeah, yeah.

01:16:45.760 Is that illegal?

01:16:46.440 And the guy goes, you know, I'm not really sure.

01:16:48.220 I remember right then thinking I'm walking out of here.

01:16:50.520 I just got to convince this guy I haven't done anything wrong.

01:16:53.300 Wachovia is telling him I've done something wrong.

01:16:55.360 But if I can get out of here.

01:16:57.080 So I start arguing with him.

01:17:00.060 This guy's saying he's got all first mortgages.

01:17:03.640 I'm saying they're not all first mortgages.

01:17:05.660 Wachovia is a first mortgage because they know they lent me a first mortgage.

01:17:08.660 I said, and he goes, who are the other ones?

01:17:10.180 And he goes, oh, SunTrust and so and so forth.

01:17:11.960 Right.

01:17:12.420 SunTrust is a credit line.

01:17:13.440 The other one is a second mortgage.

01:17:15.500 That's the three.

01:17:16.980 And he's like, well, why did you?

01:17:18.040 He wants to know why you brought him, took out all that money, half a million dollars

01:17:21.220 on a $200,000 house.

01:17:22.080 I said, bro, I don't know how it works.

01:17:23.380 I work for a labor company.

01:17:24.640 I give him my business card.

01:17:26.020 I said, all I know is I came here.

01:17:27.960 The woman, I told her I need half a million dollars. 1.00

01:17:30.080 The loan officer said, I can get you this much.

01:17:31.860 I got a friend over here.

01:17:32.600 She can get you this much, this much.

01:17:33.700 It sounds to me like they got a problem at the bank.

01:17:35.960 I don't know anything about it.

01:17:37.920 He says, okay, okay.

01:17:39.480 And the guy's screaming.

01:17:40.500 It's a shotgunning scam.

01:17:41.820 He's, you don't understand.

01:17:42.640 He's doing this.

01:17:43.160 He's doing that.

01:17:43.700 And he's like, and I'm saying, man, I wouldn't know how to do this.

01:17:46.480 I don't know what he's talking about.

01:17:48.220 And he says, yeah, I don't, this guy is, he works for a labor company.

01:17:51.080 He doesn't, and he's like, well, why are you pulling out all this cash?

01:17:53.480 And I go, well, I'm cashing guys checks.

01:17:55.020 I mean, I got a bunch of Mexican guys that are doing roofs and they don't take checks. 0.51

01:17:58.500 Or I give them a check and I cash a check.

01:18:00.060 I mean, is that illegal?

01:18:01.100 No, that's not illegal.

01:18:01.900 Okay.

01:18:02.640 So then he says, his ID, his ID starts with zero, zero, zero.

01:18:07.660 And he goes, no, it's a real ID.

01:18:09.120 It was a real ID.

01:18:10.240 He goes, it's a real ID.

01:18:11.480 This guy was in California, Wachovia.

01:18:13.700 He goes, no, our ID start with zero, zero, zero.

01:18:16.600 And he said, he said, trust me, I've run him through NCIC.

01:18:20.260 It's him.

01:18:21.220 This is Gary Sullivan.

01:18:22.400 And I go, oh, now I'm not Gary Sullivan.

01:18:24.340 I go, come on, bro.

01:18:24.920 What are we doing here, man?

01:18:25.980 What are we doing?

01:18:26.860 He goes, I know, I know Gary's okay.

01:18:28.960 And he says, okay.

01:18:29.900 So he talks to the guy.

01:18:32.300 This guy literally is arguing with him.

01:18:34.060 He eventually says, okay, I'm going to take him downtown, have him fill out a police report.

01:18:37.400 I'm waiting for the district attorney to call me back.

01:18:39.440 I don't even know what to charge him with, if I can charge him with anything.

01:18:42.300 I think you need to talk to your loan officer.

01:18:44.700 He hangs up the phone.

01:18:47.440 I then get up.

01:18:49.020 When I get up, the two sheriff deputies are there.

01:18:51.920 And he says, do you have a driver's license?

01:18:54.060 And he said, this is an ID.

01:18:55.280 And I said, yeah, I have a driver's license.

01:18:56.400 I said, but it's in Nevada.

01:18:57.460 I don't know if Gary Sullivan has.

01:18:58.720 He's a homeless guy.

01:18:59.960 He's blowing guys for 20 bucks a pop on the park bench.

01:19:02.600 I don't know if he's got a driver's license.

01:19:04.800 One of the cops says, I'll check.

01:19:06.580 He goes out to his car.

01:19:07.760 He comes back and he goes, he does have a driver's license.

01:19:10.000 And he goes, okay, it's cool.

01:19:10.960 And he goes, yeah.

01:19:11.960 He goes, well, it says he's five foot ten.

01:19:14.760 And they look at me and I go, well, with a good pair of shoes.

01:19:17.500 And they all go, ha, ha, ha.

01:19:19.280 And so at the same time, he says, I remember he had said something about, that's right,

01:19:24.860 you're from Nevada.

01:19:25.700 And all the cops look at me and they look at each other and they kind of grin.

01:19:29.200 And I realize, he said he ran me through NCIC.

01:19:31.940 He thinks I've been arrested in Nevada for prostitution. 1.00

01:19:35.600 And I thought, oh, fuck. 1.00

01:19:37.760 That was just ridiculous. 1.00

01:19:39.300 So they gave me my ID. 0.91

01:19:40.580 I follow him to the police station.

01:19:44.000 What am I going to say? 1.00

01:19:45.600 I literally almost want to say, listen, man, that's all bullshit. 0.99

01:19:47.780 My name's Matt Cox. 0.99

01:19:49.560 They follow me to the police station.

01:19:50.960 I go in the police station, fill out the police report.

01:19:55.960 I'm waiting in the hallway.

01:19:58.980 My wanted poster, by the way, is on the wall.

01:20:02.380 There's all these posters.

01:20:03.500 My only colored one on the whole wall.

01:20:05.540 You're seeing it.

01:20:06.140 I'm seeing it. 0.78

01:20:08.180 I'm pissing in my pants.

01:20:10.720 When I leave, oh, before I got there, when I was, I took my own car when I'm driving there,

01:20:16.980 Becky calls me.

01:20:18.120 I pick up the phone, and she goes, oh, my God, what's going on?

01:20:21.880 And I say, I tell her what happened, and she goes, you don't understand.

01:20:25.620 They just raised you to number one on the Secret Service's most wanted list.

01:20:28.600 You've got to get out of there.

01:20:29.660 I said, I can't.

01:20:30.320 There's a sheriff's deputy behind me.

01:20:32.000 The other guy's in front of me.

01:20:33.320 I've got to play this out.

01:20:34.720 And I say, the worst that will happen is I get arrested.

01:20:38.280 You get me out on bond.

01:20:39.440 She goes, I'm not getting you out on bond.

01:20:41.160 I'm not getting you a lawyer.

01:20:42.880 She had like $600,000 in cash.

01:20:45.100 Of your money.

01:20:45.600 My money.

01:20:45.920 She was now living in Houston. 1.00

01:20:48.300 And I'm like, what the fuck? 0.99

01:20:49.300 Are you still together or no? 1.00

01:20:50.520 Well, we're not together.

01:20:52.120 We're still a team.

01:20:54.660 But we're not together.

01:20:55.980 Yeah.

01:20:56.340 Okay.

01:20:56.660 We hate each other.

01:20:58.380 So I go into the police station, fill out the report.

01:21:03.040 Guy walks me out.

01:21:04.300 I get in my car.

01:21:05.200 I leave.

01:21:05.740 I go straight to two more banks and get out more money.

01:21:07.620 Until another person recognizes me, goes to make a phone call.

01:21:11.660 I jump in my car and I leave.

01:21:13.760 So that was like, that was insane.

01:21:19.900 And what's funny about that, so I remember like a week later, it comes out in the, St.

01:21:25.240 Piersberg Times comes out and says, you know, fugitive caught in South Carolina, released

01:21:30.480 by authorities.

01:21:31.920 And it was a big article about how they grabbed me.

01:21:35.500 They brought me downtown.

01:21:36.480 I talked my way out of it.

01:21:37.600 They always mention that, like on American Greed, they always mention it.

01:21:42.260 What did Playboy write about you in 06?

01:21:44.400 Oh, God.

01:21:45.200 It was, that was a short, that was probably a couple thousand words.

01:21:49.540 What did they write?

01:21:50.200 They just, it was, they really blew, they made it sound like I was this, you know, like

01:21:56.840 the, what was it?

01:21:57.480 The most ingenious, you know, prolific mortgage fraud con artist of all times.

01:22:03.580 And yeah, it's had some great, some great sound bites.

01:22:05.620 It's, you know, the big thing they always latch on to is one of the things you were asking

01:22:09.640 about, like how flawed is the system, let's say.

01:22:13.900 When I was satisfying the loans, one time I satisfied a loan using the name C. Montgomery

01:22:20.400 Burns from The Simpsons.

01:22:23.560 So this is, so, so C. Montgomery Burns satisfied the loan to like Federal Savings and Loan Bank.

01:22:32.300 And I thought, remember thinking it was cute and it was funny.

01:22:34.760 Let me, the judge had no sense of humor, but he found it, did not find it funny at all. 0.98

01:22:39.360 Well, but you said earlier you don't like to make people look stupid, but you like to 1.00

01:22:42.040 make people look stupid a little bit. 1.00

01:22:43.580 Like to say, like, look how dumb you are that you're allowing me to finance loans on 1.00

01:22:48.020 Reservoir Dogs by Quentin Tarantino, you idiot. 1.00

01:22:51.200 It's a great movie. 1.00

01:22:52.060 It is a great movie.

01:22:52.900 I have a story with that.

01:22:53.900 My sister's getting married to my brother-in-law, Siamak, and we're sitting at home and my sister

01:22:59.600 said, look, you've got to try to impress my dad.

01:23:01.200 My dad's not comfortable with us getting married.

01:23:02.700 So he comes over and he says, yeah, I think we should watch a movie.

01:23:05.460 My dad's a traditional Middle Eastern guy, so he puts in Reservoir Dogs. 0.99

01:23:08.740 My dad's like, what is wrong with this guy? 1.00

01:23:11.420 You motherfucker. 1.00

01:23:12.300 I mean, if you've seen the movie multiple times, you're not crazy. 1.00

01:23:15.440 He cuts the guy's ear off.

01:23:16.360 It's horrible.

01:23:17.780 What is wrong with your guy?

01:23:19.060 Now, they've been married for 15, 16 years and love each other, but that's Reservoir Dogs.

01:23:22.900 I think it was his first movie that did, he put $400,000 into it, made $14 million, one

01:23:27.380 of the biggest hits, story like Return Wise, and he becomes who he is today.

01:23:31.680 So at what point do you get caught and you said, it's done?

01:23:35.780 When was that?

01:23:36.420 That was late November 2006.

01:23:41.320 I had moved to Nashville.

01:23:44.320 Nashville, like you're trying to find the church because there's the capital of Bible 0.99

01:23:48.040 bell in America.

01:23:49.320 Are you going to church trying to be a Christian?

01:23:51.020 I'm just trying to.

01:23:51.960 I just like country music.

01:23:53.340 So I go to Nashville and I buy a bunch of houses in an area and I start the whole thing

01:23:58.880 over again.

01:24:00.200 I think I borrowed like $3.5 million or something like that, $2.5 million.

01:24:05.380 I forget what they said.

01:24:05.960 They said $3.5 million.

01:24:06.940 I think it was only like $2.5.

01:24:08.420 So I borrowed some money and at that point I'm dating a girl and she and I end up seeing

01:24:17.600 another girl and my girlfriend ends up finding out who I am, pleads with me not to leave because

01:24:25.460 I was like, oh, you know who I am.

01:24:26.840 I got to leave.

01:24:27.360 But we're living together.

01:24:28.320 We're in love.

01:24:28.980 I think it's okay.

01:24:30.300 She ends up confiding in the other girl.

01:24:32.340 The other girl turns me in.

01:24:33.960 Got it.

01:24:34.520 The Secret Service shows up.

01:24:36.240 They arrest me.

01:24:36.820 When you say the other girl, is this like a three-way relationship?

01:24:38.500 Yeah.

01:24:38.720 Okay.

01:24:39.160 Got it.

01:24:39.640 Got it.

01:24:41.200 So I end up getting grabbed.

01:24:44.900 I get, you know, it was bad.

01:24:47.040 I mean, we knew Dateline was coming out.

01:24:50.320 By that point, all these articles had come out.

01:24:52.420 Dateline about you, about what you're doing.

01:24:53.980 Right.

01:24:54.260 Okay.

01:24:54.560 Dateline did two one-hour specials on me.

01:24:56.740 One before I was arrested and then one after I was arrested.

01:25:00.100 Once I'd been arrested, the U.S. attorney came to me and said, we want you to do an interview

01:25:06.120 with Dateline, be interviewed by them.

01:25:09.240 And they said they'd consider it substantial assistance.

01:25:11.820 I mean, you've interviewed guys before, so you know what substantial assistance is.

01:25:15.600 You know, it's cooperation with the government.

01:25:18.460 Substantial assistance means you cooperated with the government, which led to an arrest

01:25:23.180 or a conviction.

01:25:24.940 So she told my lawyer, I will consider this substantial assistance.

01:25:28.420 Because by the time I get caught, everybody's already told on me.

01:25:32.340 People have gone to jail.

01:25:33.820 There's a whole bunch of people that haven't gone to jail.

01:25:37.240 But, you know, and I'm definitely ready to cooperate.

01:25:41.780 I'm ready.

01:25:42.180 Listen, I'm ready to do anything.

01:25:43.560 I'm looking at a huge sentence.

01:25:46.620 So have they caught you when Dateline called you or no?

01:25:49.420 Not yet.

01:25:49.880 No, no, when they caught me, they caught me, and within a month or two, Dateline's episode

01:25:55.460 came out.

01:25:56.040 Oh, okay, I got it.

01:25:56.620 I was leaving the country because I knew it was coming out.

01:25:59.440 Where were you going to go to?

01:26:00.360 I was going to go to Australia because at that point, if you showed up in Australia with

01:26:05.120 really a couple hundred grand.

01:26:06.740 Yeah, citizen, yeah.

01:26:08.000 You became a, well, it wasn't even, at that point, it was a citizen if you wanted to be

01:26:12.020 fingerprinted and run.

01:26:13.320 You could be a non-resident alien.

01:26:15.540 You were allowed to buy property.

01:26:16.940 You were allowed to start a business.

01:26:18.120 Like Panama. 0.89

01:26:18.880 Very interesting.

01:26:19.340 Like Australia. 0.59

01:26:20.140 Right.

01:26:20.480 So I got a driver.

01:26:22.240 I got to be there.

01:26:23.600 I couldn't get a job, but I could hire Aussies. 1.00

01:26:25.920 I could buy property.

01:26:27.480 So if you show up with just a few hundred thousand, so that was 15 years ago.

01:26:30.680 You know who else went to Australia?

01:26:32.860 Jordan Belfort also went to Australia.

01:26:34.520 I did hear that.

01:26:35.260 I did hear that.

01:26:35.760 Very interesting.

01:26:37.100 Obviously, Jordan Belfort has been, we've done a couple things to get.

01:26:40.700 I was on his, he was on our thing, telling the story.

01:26:43.740 So, okay, so your plan was to go to Australia to do that, but then they catch you here.

01:26:49.080 They grabbed me.

01:26:49.760 I mean, that's what prompted it.

01:26:51.260 We were pulling out cash.

01:26:52.680 One of the things that prompted a conversation between my girlfriend and this other girl,

01:26:57.000 we're asking her to cash checks, get us some cash, and she says, what happened?

01:27:02.240 And so that causes the thing, look, here's what's happening.

01:27:04.800 Dateline's coming out.

01:27:05.500 Here's who he is.

01:27:06.260 He's got to get out of the country.

01:27:07.420 She calls the Secret Service.

01:27:09.280 So we're thinking we're all good.

01:27:11.300 She's thinking I can get rid of this guy and end up with this girlfriend. 0.96

01:27:15.760 So what happens is I get arrested.

01:27:19.920 They swoop in.

01:27:20.520 They arrest me.

01:27:21.540 A few months later, Dateline does come out.

01:27:24.540 It was called the Thief of Hearts.

01:27:26.460 Becky had already been captured.

01:27:29.000 Becky had been captured already a year before me.

01:27:31.060 Becky's already in.

01:27:31.960 She's already in.

01:27:32.900 And she does, the whole thing is based on Becky and her, an interview with Becky, saying,

01:27:39.140 oh, he's a horrible guy. 0.54

01:27:40.960 He's manipulative. 1.00

01:27:42.300 He did this. 0.57

01:27:42.900 He did that.

01:27:43.940 You know, so that comes out.

01:27:46.120 Then the U.S. attorney says they want to interview you.

01:27:49.180 We want you to be interviewed.

01:27:51.020 And, you know, my lawyer's like, look, they're going to make you look bad,

01:27:53.300 but they'll consider it substantial assistance.

01:27:54.860 They'll reduce your sentence.

01:27:56.780 She said, you got to do it.

01:27:58.360 You're basically done.

01:28:00.300 So by that point, so I go and I do the interview.

01:28:03.300 Just before I'm sentenced, we're thinking they're going to reduce my sentence,

01:28:07.480 give me a 5K-1 and reduce my sentence.

01:28:09.420 They say, yeah, you know, it's really not enough.

01:28:12.280 But you said you'd consider substantial assistance.

01:28:14.240 And the U.S. attorney said, we did consider it, and it's not enough. 0.99

01:28:19.480 Motherfucker. 0.99

01:28:20.200 So I get 26 years. 1.00

01:28:22.320 I go to prison.

01:28:23.620 Prison, prison?

01:28:24.660 I went to a medium security prison.

01:28:26.560 The day I got there, a guy got stabbed on the wreck yard.

01:28:29.040 Guys are getting beat down with locks.

01:28:31.120 Did you ever get beat down like that?

01:28:32.380 Never had a problem, ever.

01:28:35.200 Had a only fight I ever had or issue I ever had was in the low.

01:28:40.400 In the medium, I never had a problem.

01:28:41.740 Within a few weeks of me being there, I started teaching the real estate class.

01:28:45.360 The guy that was teaching it didn't want to do it anymore.

01:28:48.520 He wanted to do legal work.

01:28:51.080 So he asked if I'd do it.

01:28:52.360 I started teaching it.

01:28:53.700 Well, I had a great class.

01:28:55.560 And it was the medium, so you could be pretty open with what you talked about.

01:28:59.820 So I had a great class.

01:29:02.000 Guys are walking around the compound.

01:29:03.360 Hey, Cox, what's going on?

01:29:04.260 Hey, man, how's it going?

01:29:05.040 What's going on?

01:29:05.480 Hey.

01:29:05.960 I mean, huge, massive guys.

01:29:08.700 Everybody's very happy.

01:29:09.980 They're protecting you.

01:29:10.720 Were they protecting you or not?

01:29:11.540 Well, it wasn't that I needed to be protected.

01:29:13.340 I didn't talk to anybody.

01:29:14.820 You know what it was like?

01:29:15.400 It was like being a non-enemy combatant.

01:29:17.920 Like, literally, there's stuff going on all around you.

01:29:20.360 My head's down.

01:29:21.240 I go to the unit.

01:29:24.400 I go to work.

01:29:25.280 I taught GED.

01:29:27.780 And then I go and I teach the real estate class.

01:29:33.140 Guys want to know about certain things.

01:29:36.160 I'll meet you in the library.

01:29:38.740 I can go over stuff with you.

01:29:40.380 We take notes.

01:29:42.060 We do scenarios.

01:29:43.160 It lasts about an hour, once or twice a week.

01:29:46.420 Everything's great.

01:29:47.340 Now, you've met some interesting cats in prison, though.

01:29:49.000 Yeah.

01:29:49.280 Well, I was there for three years.

01:29:50.400 Then I went to the low.

01:29:51.660 Oh, okay.

01:29:52.180 Got it.

01:29:52.400 Right.

01:29:53.140 Where did you start writing when you started writing scripts?

01:29:56.840 I think you wrote a, what did you say you wrote?

01:29:59.900 You wrote a memoir, right?

01:30:00.920 Did you write a memoir for?

01:30:01.940 I wrote a memoir for a guy, for Ephraim Devaroli, which was the lead, which was the character.

01:30:07.660 Jonah Hill.

01:30:08.460 Jonah Hill plays him in War Dogs.

01:30:10.220 I wrote Devaroli's memoir while we were incarcerated.

01:30:13.300 How was he?

01:30:15.520 He was, let me put, did you see the movie?

01:30:18.120 Of course.

01:30:18.580 And what did you think of Jonah Hill?

01:30:21.840 What did you think of the character? 0.96

01:30:23.580 Psycho, sociopath, who was a great leader and a manipulator.

01:30:28.720 He made Devaroli look cuddly compared to Devaroli. 0.98

01:30:33.300 Devaroli is cunning.

01:30:35.920 Super smart.

01:30:37.100 Super smart.

01:30:38.400 Super manipulative.

01:30:39.860 Super cunning.

01:30:40.960 I mean, you know, I wouldn't trust him for anything.

01:30:46.780 But you cannot, you can't underestimate him.

01:30:50.580 He is, but he is absolutely extremely sharp.

01:30:54.920 I mean, you know, I wouldn't dare take that away from him.

01:30:56.920 And the thing about him is that as vicious as he was in business, and that movie doesn't come close to it.

01:31:04.640 By the time I was done writing that book, you know, I liked him.

01:31:07.780 He was, he had an ability, has an ability to get you really to like him, to, you know, but, but I liked him because I thought we were a team.

01:31:18.220 You know, he's the kind of guy you want on your side.

01:31:20.500 You definitely want him on your side.

01:31:21.580 Is he a tough guy or no?

01:31:22.800 He's not a tough guy like a brutal guy.

01:31:25.240 He's a sharp guy.

01:31:26.540 He's, um.

01:31:27.680 Does he have the piercing eyes like you or no?

01:31:29.440 Like, is he like that as well or no?

01:31:31.240 Because your eyes are on fire.

01:31:32.500 Like, and typically a lot of guys that are brilliant, that they think a million things in their mind, their eyes are like the way you are.

01:31:38.260 Was he like that as well or no?

01:31:39.300 Intense?

01:31:39.680 I would say he's extreme.

01:31:40.760 He's very intense.

01:31:41.660 Okay.

01:31:41.920 He's very intense.

01:31:42.720 On all the time?

01:31:43.660 On all the time.

01:31:44.460 Okay.

01:31:45.300 Always.

01:31:45.620 Yeah, definitely.

01:31:46.620 He's definitely energetic.

01:31:47.680 Definitely.

01:31:48.540 You know, he's just, it's.

01:31:49.640 You guys still keep in touch or no?

01:31:51.340 No.

01:31:51.960 No.

01:31:52.300 So it didn't end well, the relationship.

01:31:53.700 Oh, no, no.

01:31:54.020 He sued Warner Brothers over the film.

01:31:56.680 They alleged that Warner Brothers had gotten a hold of the manuscript, which it appears that they looked like they did.

01:32:02.180 There was a, they sued them.

01:32:04.660 They went back and forth.

01:32:06.100 There was a, you know, there was a settlement.

01:32:09.440 They, um, I sued Warner Brothers and Devaroli.

01:32:13.300 We dropped the Warner Brothers suit.

01:32:14.840 We sued Warner, uh, Devaroli.

01:32:17.460 Uh, we ended up settling with Devaroli.

01:32:20.440 And, you know, and even during that, that in negotiations, it's just extremely tough.

01:32:26.140 Extremely, you know, he's a sharp guy.

01:32:30.740 He's a sharp guy.

01:32:31.700 So I wrote that story.

01:32:33.160 I wrote a story, uh, about these guys, um, called, uh, the story I wrote was Oxy Rush.

01:32:40.100 Uh, had sent, I sent that to a reporter with Rolling Stone.

01:32:43.980 Uh, they ended up writing a, an article based on what I had written.

01:32:48.700 It was called, uh, the Dukes of Oxy.

01:32:51.240 And that was sold to, uh, New Line Cinema.

01:32:54.400 I believe it was New Line Cinema.

01:32:57.020 And, uh, and it was optioned.

01:32:58.440 You know, the film rights were sold.

01:32:59.420 It was, so it was optioned.

01:33:00.980 It's been optioned.

01:33:02.080 They've renewed the option several times since then.

01:33:04.800 Wrote a story about a guy named, uh, about a credit card counterfeiter, which is honestly one of the most amazing stories.

01:33:10.720 Uh, which is a, a credit card counterfeiter named, uh, John Boziak, who sold about three and a half, or about three and a half million dollars in credit cards to the Russian mob.

01:33:20.060 Been listed on several indictments, uh, was, Secret Service was after him.

01:33:24.000 Got, it's just a phenomenal story.

01:33:26.240 Wrote a memoir for him.

01:33:28.100 Uh, what else?

01:33:28.840 Wrote a, uh, there's a guy named Marcus Shrinker that actually, in 2008, when the whole financial crisis was coming down, Shrinker took his airplane up.

01:33:37.720 Called in a distress signal.

01:33:40.980 The windshield's imploded.

01:33:42.560 I'm bleeding.

01:33:44.020 And then he sets the autopilot.

01:33:46.800 It's supposed to go out over the Gulf, and he jumps out.

01:33:49.680 Fake his own death.

01:33:51.320 It's been everywhere.

01:33:52.760 It's a huge story.

01:33:54.260 And he ends up landing, and then three days later they catch him because the airplane runs out of gas about a mile or two before it hits the Gulf.

01:34:00.580 Because he didn't account for the fact that the door was going to be open, so it burns off a lot more fuel.

01:34:04.520 And it ends up crashing into, like, a swampy area, and guess what?

01:34:08.100 That whole plane was just destroyed, but the windshield was still intact. 0.98

01:34:12.280 So they know immediately, fucking guy's not in the plane. 0.99

01:34:16.300 He jumped out. 0.99

01:34:17.360 The door's open.

01:34:18.340 I mean, he thought it goes down.

01:34:19.900 The windshield's going to implode when it's the—anyway, they catch him.

01:34:23.000 So I wrote a book about him, Pathological Liar.

01:34:26.520 That's a phenomenal story.

01:34:27.720 And I've written about, about over a dozen, almost 20—

01:34:30.520 How is a guy like you who didn't do good in school such a good writer?

01:34:33.480 Why are you writing?

01:34:34.260 I mean, how—

01:34:34.680 Well, you know, I had a lot of help.

01:34:35.620 Listen, you've got guys in Coleman that are locked up.

01:34:37.300 Guys from NASA.

01:34:38.460 You've got lawyers.

01:34:39.840 You've got—you've got guys with 180 IQs.

01:34:42.260 I mean, these are brilliant guys.

01:34:43.500 I write the story—

01:34:44.240 You've got guys in from NASA.

01:34:45.220 You've got guys in from—

01:34:46.460 Absolutely.

01:34:47.380 There are amazing guys that are in there.

01:34:49.180 Listen, I'm not saying 90% of them are just drug dealers, low-level drug dealers.

01:34:53.000 But there's a whole slew of guys that are super sharp.

01:34:56.700 Lawyers, doctors.

01:34:57.720 I never go to the doctor.

01:34:59.620 You just—you just go find Dr. Iglesias, and he's in, you know, B3, and you say,

01:35:04.920 Hey, listen, doc, my knee, it's killing me.

01:35:06.800 And he does a little exam there, and he says,

01:35:08.500 Okay, you're going to stay off it for two weeks.

01:35:10.720 And I can't go to the doctor at Coleman.

01:35:13.440 These guys are like PAs.

01:35:15.000 Nobody will hire them.

01:35:15.860 I mean, they're—so you don't get to the top of your field and end up working for the BOP.

01:35:23.720 That's just not how it works.

01:35:25.360 Makes sense.

01:35:26.180 So, yeah, so—

01:35:27.800 So you just got out nine months ago, ten months ago.

01:35:30.400 Yeah, seven, eight months ago.

01:35:31.400 Seven, eight months.

01:35:31.780 How do you feel being out?

01:35:32.680 What are your plans now?

01:35:34.160 I feel good.

01:35:35.520 I mean, I've got a website with all my stories on it.

01:35:38.980 How are you making money right now?

01:35:40.380 I'm working as—I've been hired to write a biography by a lawyer.

01:35:44.520 It's kind of a vanity project.

01:35:46.340 Super amazing lawyer.

01:35:48.260 I've got two other books that I'm supposed to write.

01:35:51.660 I've got—I'm selling books on Amazon, so that's some money.

01:35:55.680 You know, my bills are low.

01:35:56.940 Listen, here's one thing I learned is I don't need a lot of money.

01:35:59.860 I stay extremely humble.

01:36:02.280 I literally live in someone's spare room. 1.00

01:36:04.900 I drive a piece of shit Jeep. 1.00

01:36:07.040 I spend virtually no money. 1.00

01:36:09.440 My whole thing is I'm writing the stories.

01:36:11.520 I want to be a true crime writer.

01:36:12.700 I want to get them turned into documentaries, into films.

01:36:16.940 No desire to go back to the old life.

01:36:18.940 Absolutely not.

01:36:20.000 100%.

01:36:20.280 No temptation.

01:36:22.440 Listen, you never know.

01:36:23.660 Listen, you never know.

01:36:24.880 What am I supposed to say?

01:36:25.860 The fact of the matter—

01:36:26.600 You never know.

01:36:27.740 Oh, listen, I told my probation officer.

01:36:29.440 I said, I'm going to give it a year, and if things don't go well, I'm going to commit 0.98

01:36:32.680 a massive, massive fraud, and I'm leaving the United States because that's where I fucked up. 0.99

01:36:35.320 You told them that. 0.99

01:36:36.100 Oh, I told her. 0.96

01:36:37.000 Listen, matter of fact, she even told me—this is fucking horrible—because she even told me,

01:36:40.840 don't—basically, she didn't say it, but she basically said, stop mentioning me in the podcast. 0.75

01:36:45.960 Like, I don't want to be famous.

01:36:48.580 Stop it.

01:36:49.220 So, I mean, and she's the nicest person.

01:36:51.600 She's extremely strict.

01:36:52.860 She's concerned.

01:36:53.920 She's concerned. 0.99

01:36:54.980 But the truth is, things are going too well for me to fuck up at this point. 0.97

01:36:58.360 At this point—listen, at this point, I've got documentaries that are about to be made. 0.94

01:37:06.420 I've got a series that is supposed to be made.

01:37:09.620 It's supposed to go to Los Angeles on the 18th and 19th.

01:37:12.820 I'm to meet with a production company that makes films for Netflix and Hulu.

01:37:19.780 They have, like, four of them on there right now.

01:37:21.520 So, things are going well.

01:37:23.500 The low interest rates doesn't turn you on right now?

01:37:25.500 It does nothing for me.

01:37:26.880 Positive.

01:37:27.140 It does nothing for me.

01:37:27.880 Let me ask you this.

01:37:29.460 Just from your experience, how long can this low interest rates last?

01:37:34.560 How long can it last?

01:37:35.600 I mean, this is all fake money right now.

01:37:37.700 I mean, I, you know, I was just thinking every time I'll see, like, some E-Trade commercial,

01:37:42.560 like, one of these mortgages, like, you know, they're doing the mortgages, you know, over the Internet or something.

01:37:46.900 I just look at it.

01:37:47.560 I'm just like, it's so ripe for fraud. 0.99

01:37:51.760 I'm just like, this is ridiculous. 0.97

01:37:53.040 That's what I would say. 0.94

01:37:53.860 That's why I'm saying that.

01:37:54.960 It's, you know, but—

01:37:56.960 It's so ripe for fraud.

01:37:59.200 Yeah.

01:37:59.660 You watch Big Short.

01:38:00.480 What's your first thing you thought when you saw Big Short?

01:38:02.060 You're like, yeah, I kind of knew this was going to come up.

01:38:03.480 Oh, the Big Short was great, right?

01:38:04.880 What did you think about it?

01:38:05.700 Did you say that I knew this—

01:38:06.560 Listen, in the Big Short, do you remember when they come to Florida and they meet with the mortgage brokers that are like,

01:38:12.100 Oh, I'd focus on, like, strippers?

01:38:14.220 Yeah.

01:38:14.560 Those were my brokers.

01:38:15.840 Those were my guys.

01:38:16.620 If you want to know who worked for Mac, use car salesmen.

01:38:20.480 Those guys right there, they're buying strippers. 1.00

01:38:23.200 They're nut jobs. 0.73

01:38:24.400 They're going to conventions.

01:38:25.180 We're just like that.

01:38:26.780 Phenomenal conventions.

01:38:28.340 I went to—like, I mean, you know, it was outrageous. 1.00

01:38:32.860 And those idiots, those were the brokers that I hired. 1.00

01:38:36.340 And they were good. 1.00

01:38:37.320 You didn't have to be that great.

01:38:39.940 So, you know, especially if you can go in and bring me the documents.

01:38:43.740 I got all these documents.

01:38:45.080 These two need to be changed.

01:38:46.600 And I change them.

01:38:47.300 You got a loan.

01:38:48.300 Did you watch Accountant with Ben Affleck?

01:38:50.520 The Accountant?

01:38:51.720 Is that what it's called?

01:38:52.540 The Accountant?

01:38:53.520 Have you seen that or no?

01:38:54.500 Well, you've got to watch it.

01:38:55.440 I missed a lot of movies.

01:38:56.580 Well, you've got to watch this one.

01:38:58.180 That's right.

01:38:58.700 You just got out seven, eight months ago.

01:39:00.400 Go watch The Accountant and then tell me what you think about The Accountant.

01:39:04.500 Some tells me you may like it.

01:39:05.880 I don't know if you watch it.

01:39:06.820 It's a very—would you agree?

01:39:08.140 I think he may like the movie.

01:39:10.140 It's an interesting story.

01:39:11.200 Tell us about the book before we wrap up here.

01:39:12.940 Shark in the Housing Pool.

01:39:14.160 Tell us what this is about.

01:39:15.980 That's the story of, for me, basically, it's a brief account of, you know, it's a memoir.

01:39:23.120 It's a memoir.

01:39:24.140 Tell a little bit about my upbringing, what influenced me slightly.

01:39:30.540 Look, and then it gets straight into all the fraud and the mortgage company.

01:39:34.800 And then it's me on—it's life on the run, the scams.

01:39:38.820 It's extremely—I mean, look, I think it's super interesting.

01:39:43.460 Of course, I'm biased.

01:39:44.980 I wrote it.

01:39:46.580 But everybody that reads it loves it.

01:39:48.600 It's a phenomenal story.

01:39:50.420 Shoot, you've just gotten bits and pieces of it right now.

01:39:52.700 Here's what Dateline says.

01:39:53.660 So you just—this kind of contradicts what you said.

01:39:55.980 He was not some boring banker type in a gravy flannel suit, but a hip, young daredevil who wore expensive clothes, drove flashy cars, and loved to skydive.

01:40:04.980 But that's Dateline.

01:40:06.580 That's what they say.

01:40:07.680 You know, they always hype it up.

01:40:09.300 What did you drive?

01:40:09.880 You said a truck.

01:40:10.460 What were you driving?

01:40:11.160 No, I mean, I've driven everything.

01:40:12.380 I've driven—I've had Mercedes.

01:40:14.200 I've had—

01:40:14.280 No Lambos, Ferraris, Porsches?

01:40:15.480 No, no, because it's too flashy.

01:40:17.600 I'm an Audi guy.

01:40:18.740 So you watch American Gangster?

01:40:19.820 Did you watch American Gangster or no?

01:40:21.220 Yeah, I've seen it.

01:40:21.680 Just the kind of low-key and now we're there.

01:40:22.860 Exactly.

01:40:23.000 Okay, interesting.

01:40:24.200 Well, I mean, listen.

01:40:25.960 Obviously, today's story, I told you it's going to be a crazy story, and I was in the world with a lot of friends on mortgage.

01:40:32.020 They were doing modification.

01:40:33.240 You remember when modification came out?

01:40:34.480 That was a whole opening for more fraud to be taking place.

01:40:37.100 Matthew Cox, thank you so much for coming out.

01:40:39.640 I enjoyed listening to your story. 0.71

01:40:41.500 You've got a crazy-ass story. 0.68

01:40:42.980 I've got to tell you that. 0.97

01:40:44.360 Phenomenal story.

01:40:45.040 Appreciate it.

01:40:45.560 Glad I was here.

01:40:46.400 Glad I came.

01:40:47.120 Thanks, everybody, for listening.

01:40:48.400 And by the way, if you haven't already subscribed to Valuetainment on iTunes, please do so.

01:40:53.020 Give us a five-star.

01:40:54.300 Write a review if you haven't already.

01:40:55.900 And if you have any questions for me that you may have, you can always find me on Snapchat, Instagram, Facebook, or YouTube.

01:41:01.860 Just search my name, PatrickBitDavid.

01:41:03.780 And I actually do respond back when you snap me or send me a message on Instagram.

01:41:08.420 With that being said, have a great day today.

01:41:10.440 Take care, everybody.

01:41:11.180 Bye-bye.

01:41:12.980 Bye-bye.

Valuetainment - June 12, 2020

Episode 477： FBI's Most Wanted Con Artist Reveals Loopholes in The System

Episode Stats

Summary

Transcript