Valuetainment - Episode 496： Communist Philosopher Trashes Capitalism - Slavoj Žižek

00:00:00.000 30 seconds.

00:00:01.880 Did you ever think you would make it?

00:00:04.280 I feel I'm so close I could take sweet victory.

00:00:07.660 I know this life meant for me.

00:00:10.800 Yeah, why would you bet on Goliath when we got Bet David?

00:00:14.620 Valuetainment, giving value is contagious.

00:00:16.440 This world of entrepreneurs, we get no value to haters.

00:00:19.180 How they run, homie, look what I've become.

00:00:21.420 I'm the one.

00:00:22.520 I'm Patrick, Bet David, your host of Valuetainment.

00:00:24.140 The one thing you need to know is the painting behind me

00:00:26.240 every time I do these interviews.

00:00:27.500 In the middle of the painting, you'll see two books that are being debated

00:00:30.540 between these eight different personalities.

00:00:32.540 One is Atlas Shrugged.

00:00:33.760 The other one is Communist Fan Manifesto.

00:00:35.720 Today, I decided to bring the modern-day communist philosopher,

00:00:39.300 Slavoj Žižek, who trashes capitalism.

00:00:42.120 But I got to tell you, we actually had a very good time

00:00:44.300 having a banter going back and forth debating capitalism against communism.

00:00:47.840 Slavoj, thank you for being a guest on Valuetainment.

00:00:50.440 I'm grateful for your kind invitation.

00:00:52.800 Thank you.

00:00:53.320 Because, you know, although I am some very strange type of communist,

00:00:58.980 but as my more moderate right-wing friend,

00:01:03.880 Tyler Cowen, wonderfully describes me,

00:01:08.040 I'm a moderately conservative communist.

00:01:11.620 That is to say.

00:01:12.320 I am not an idiot.

00:01:15.280 I'm not dreaming about a new Stalinist central committee,

00:01:19.360 and so on, and so on.

00:01:20.480 The 20th century is over.

00:01:23.700 Did you notice what's the lesson of China, and so on?

00:01:26.960 If anything, communists who survived

00:01:29.940 are mostly very efficient managers of today's capitalism.

00:01:35.340 We live in a very weird time.

00:01:38.720 And why do you say that?

00:01:39.740 Because of China, the name of the miracle is China.

00:01:49.320 One should not overestimate China.

00:01:52.340 Many people say today, but look, they did deal with the pandemic successfully.

00:01:58.960 Okay, they screwed it up at the beginning.

00:02:01.220 Later, in a very brutal way, they controlled it.

00:02:04.480 But, you know, aren't the two true miracles parts of China 0.76

00:02:09.440 which don't want to be parts of China.

00:02:11.960 They are the true silent miracle.

00:02:14.440 Taiwan and Hong Kong.

00:02:17.040 They dealt with pandemic in a model way.

00:02:21.840 No signs of second wave, life returning to normal, and so on, and so on.

00:02:26.760 And that's our, we can talk about it more later.

00:02:30.440 This is why I think now we are in an eminently political problem.

00:02:39.260 I don't agree with those who claim,

00:02:42.920 now it's not time for politics,

00:02:45.460 we are under threat, all of us,

00:02:47.500 so let's just trust the state to resolve this problem.

00:02:52.760 No, we all know that things will not return to the old normal

00:02:59.220 the way we remember it.

00:03:02.660 And if I may jump, you should correct me a little bit.

00:03:06.520 Isn't this the saddest thing for me?

00:03:09.780 That's what makes me depressed at the everyday life.

00:03:14.080 Many people have written about problems of mourning, melancholy,

00:03:18.800 how to mourn all the dead, and so on, and so on.

00:03:23.340 But isn't there another mourning also at work?

00:03:29.220 We are already beginning to mourn a way of life

00:03:33.540 where you simply, you know, walk around, communicate,

00:03:37.260 and so on, and so on.

00:03:38.860 It is becoming clear, and I'm not celebrating this,

00:03:42.940 that's what makes me very sad and depressed,

00:03:45.300 that again, as now all know,

00:03:48.580 things will not simply return to normality,

00:03:53.440 that this will just dissipate, disappear,

00:03:56.080 pandemics as a bad dream.

00:03:58.340 And I think this is the beginning of a new period where some form of distances,

00:04:05.960 of social control, and so on, and so on, will be necessary.

00:04:10.620 So, you know what makes me infinitely sad?

00:04:14.540 How to distract myself, stupid movies that I'm watching,

00:04:20.280 like, or the old TV series, like Will and Grace,

00:04:24.000 or the British TV series about that provincial autistic doctor,

00:04:28.320 Doc Martin, and so on, and so on.

00:04:30.460 It makes me sad to think that this is already a way of life

00:04:37.480 which is, at least for the time being, lost.

00:04:42.000 You know, lost in the sense that, no, it's not lost.

00:04:45.340 All the objects are there.

00:04:47.000 Restaurants are there.

00:04:48.740 Cars are there.

00:04:49.840 Public transport is there.

00:04:51.160 But it doesn't function.

00:04:52.660 It's a terrible situation.

00:04:54.420 Which is why, I want to emphasize this,

00:04:58.380 it's not only the health costs,

00:05:01.600 how many people will die or suffer terribly.

00:05:06.040 Because, you know, we should, wouldn't you agree,

00:05:08.540 get rid of many illusions here.

00:05:11.080 Even if you survive the COVID infection,

00:05:16.020 it's not simply that you are reconstructed back at your health.

00:05:20.880 There are some traces on your lungs,

00:05:23.000 you get weaker and so on.

00:05:24.660 But what about other things?

00:05:26.520 Everybody knows this.

00:05:27.500 I'm not saying anything original.

00:05:29.160 First, all the other things that are neglected,

00:05:34.080 all the other illnesses and so on, cancers and so on.

00:05:38.080 Second thing, even your president, Trump, had to admit it.

00:05:42.740 What happens with food production and distribution

00:05:47.560 if too many people get infected?

00:05:49.340 I mean, things have to function.

00:05:52.720 And that's my idea of,

00:05:55.040 I use this word with all provocation and ironically,

00:06:00.240 why I use the word mostly to provoke communism.

00:06:04.580 It simply means, and I'm not original here,

00:06:08.460 governments de facto admit it, Bill Gates admitted it.

00:06:12.280 The situation is too serious to leave the solution to the market.

00:06:18.200 Here, public authorities should step in

00:06:21.600 and simply prioritize certain things.

00:06:25.900 First, health care.

00:06:28.920 Should be not only universal, but even global.

00:06:32.780 All rational, not global, okay, I'm not a utopian,

00:06:35.640 not global in the sense that we will have a,

00:06:37.840 I don't know, worldwide ministry of care,

00:06:40.600 but in the sense of coordination.

00:06:43.320 I mean, it's an illusion that we will have safe bubbles

00:06:46.200 like now New Zealand and Australia,

00:06:49.180 while hundreds of thousands will die in another world.

00:06:54.340 Virus is moving up and down.

00:06:56.700 So health care, absolute priority.

00:07:00.220 Second priority, food distribution,

00:07:04.000 how to not only produce it,

00:07:05.920 how to give it to the people.

00:07:07.340 And third thing, this basic elementaries of our daily life,

00:07:12.360 which means electricity, water, sewage, trash disposal,

00:07:17.760 and of course, let's not forget the smooth functioning of phone

00:07:22.020 and especially digital space, internet.

00:07:25.240 This should be absolutely prioritized.

00:07:28.960 I got a question.

00:07:30.080 I got a question.

00:07:31.340 Yeah, please.

00:07:32.460 Let's go back a little bit.

00:07:34.480 Slavoj, when did you buy into the philosophy of communism?

00:07:38.480 How old were you?

00:07:39.500 No, ha, ha, ha, ha.

00:07:41.420 Now comes the surprise.

00:07:43.680 I didn't.

00:07:44.820 When I was young and finished my studies in 1970s and early 1980s,

00:07:51.160 I was a kind of a dissident.

00:07:53.480 I was five years unemployed for being non-Marxist.

00:07:57.640 I was very critical of communism.

00:08:00.900 Even in China, they don't accept me today.

00:08:04.080 Because I think that China should precisely not be the model of us.

00:08:12.140 Look, all liberal leftists in the 20th century

00:08:15.880 chated in existing social order two things.

00:08:20.620 A, unbridled, brutal capitalist competition.

00:08:24.700 And B, strong authoritarian state.

00:08:28.120 Isn't it the secret of the success of China that it precisely combines these two things?

00:08:35.220 I think that China is one of the offers we get, referring to Robert Checkley's story,

00:08:42.640 in the store of the world.

00:08:45.560 It's one solution offered to us.

00:08:48.140 And my point is, it can be done.

00:08:51.200 Here I refer, they will not like this, what I will say now in China.

00:08:55.040 Look at South Korea, Taiwan, Hong Kong.

00:09:00.260 They did it, but without this full authoritarian functioning of the state.

00:09:06.980 Because Chinese model is, for me, too much based on, to cut a long story short, on not trusting the people. 1.00

00:09:14.980 People should be controlled.

00:09:16.920 While I'm not idealizing Taiwan.

00:09:20.320 No, Taiwan is part of China and so on.

00:09:23.820 But these territories, I don't want to offend Chinese, they are part of China in some sense.

00:09:29.240 These territories dealt better because, nonetheless, there was considerable trust between the population and the government.

00:09:41.200 So I am here very critical of the 20th century communism.

00:09:46.680 I think that the 20th century communism was at a certain level, yeah, industrialization, success, and so on.

00:09:54.320 But basically, it was a great ethical, political fiasco.

00:09:58.480 Just think of the purges and so on, all that happened.

00:10:01.960 So I'm not, in that sense, communist.

00:10:05.800 I'm only communist in the sense that I think that the problems that we are approaching now, ecological problems,

00:10:15.460 and I think that the ongoing epidemics of COVID is just the first in the series.

00:10:23.440 There were other epidemics.

00:10:24.860 There will be other epidemics.

00:10:26.360 There will be other problems, and so on.

00:10:28.840 I don't think that global capitalism, the way it is functioning today, is strong enough in its mechanisms to enable us to cope with these problems.

00:10:41.880 I think we need, at three levels, something stronger.

00:10:46.360 First, at a local level, you know, which are wonderful moments that I observed, how from different, I mentioned this in my book, in different parts of the world, like in Spain, I was told, in Madrid and Barcelona, people locally in blocks organize and try to identify who are the poor old people who live alone.

00:11:09.240 No, it reminds me, but not in a brutal Cuban way, of what they call the committees of the revolution, you know.

00:11:18.400 In every block, a group which controls the population.

00:11:22.120 But here, it's not done in that way.

00:11:24.140 It's simply done to take care of those who are otherwise neglected.

00:11:28.000 So we need local coordination, you know, which is the most beautiful story here.

00:11:33.780 I was told by a friend from Rio de Janeiro that gangs who are usually fighting in favelas there concluded immediately truth and organized themselves to help the poor and destitute in the favelas and so on.

00:11:49.280 Second thing, the state, again, the state has to take it over and they are doing it.

00:11:56.940 Even Trump will be forced to evoke how it is called, that act from the 50s Cold War that the president can direct industry what to produce and all that stuff.

00:12:08.640 The state will have to intervene here.

00:12:10.880 Now, I'm here, very satisfied to give an ironic answer to people who tell me, oh, you are no communist and you want to use this moment to propagate.

00:12:21.760 No, sorry, but what Trump did with distributing trillions of dollars, okay, we can be very critical of how he did it.

00:12:31.080 How many of this money really went to the people, how much of this money went more to help big companies and so on.

00:12:39.040 But are we aware that this type of distribution of enormous amounts of money is no longer something that fits the capitalist model?

00:12:52.020 The logic was simply millions of new unemployed could be starving.

00:12:58.140 It's the duty of the state to enable them a minimally decent life.

00:13:04.060 That's no longer capitalist logic.

00:13:06.300 That's logic of some kind of a caretaker state responsibility to and so on and so on.

00:13:13.440 So wouldn't you agree in this definition of communism, which is, again, a provocative word, I know.

00:13:21.420 The old Marx in one of his texts says that in communism, the formula, the principle of social life will be to everyone according to his needs, or her, of course, of their needs, from everyone according to his, her, their abilities.

00:13:40.420 Isn't it this what we are, even people like Trump, Boris Johnson, what we are doing now?

00:13:47.420 You don't ask yourself, are you a productive member of society, if by productive we mean profitable and so on.

00:13:56.300 We simply know people should not starve.

00:13:59.880 It has nothing to do with economic logic.

00:14:02.440 It has to be done.

00:14:03.820 And on the other hand, I think, and it should be done in a transparent, democratic way, but the state also, maybe, we don't know how things will develop, should have the right to maybe mobilize people for certain tasks.

00:14:19.880 For example, again, harvesting.

00:14:22.160 I've written about it.

00:14:23.300 In France, usually, now it's spring harvest, usually they rely on hundreds of thousands of seasonal workers from Spain, Portugal, and so on.

00:14:33.760 Borders are closed now, they cannot come.

00:14:36.580 Even in England, which is certainly not a communist party, I read that they did something simple and efficient.

00:14:44.200 You know, all those waiters, waitresses, flight attendants, and so on, they are employing them harvesting now.

00:14:51.620 So, when I say, from everybody according to his abilities, to everybody according to his needs, I don't mean it in the sense of Marx, oh, we will all have a comfortable life and pursue our creative job.

00:15:04.560 No, it's more a modest, wartime communist.

00:15:08.460 We should mobilize our public authorities to enable some, to everybody, some health and some minimal decent life.

00:15:19.600 It's very modest, but so people don't starve, they are taken care of.

00:15:24.600 And, on the other hand, public authorities have the right to demand, in a very, as much, as limited as possible, of course, certain public services.

00:15:35.420 Now, when people tell me this is utopia, no, people know very well.

00:15:41.040 That's why, even in England, when authorities ask for volunteers for public works, half a million people, young, healthy people, offer themselves.

00:15:51.900 Because, you know, we are in a unique situation where it's in our egotist interest that these things should be done.

00:16:01.400 That's the miracle.

00:16:02.400 That's why the pandemic, it's a different situation for us to do this, but let me ask you this.

00:16:07.980 No, sorry, sorry, just to say, and then immediately I'll give you the part, sorry.

00:16:11.840 Yeah, during the pandemic, but I think, and I hope, pray to God that I'm wrong, but I think some kind of a crisis will last.

00:16:22.280 There will not be full return to normal.

00:16:25.560 You think it will simply return to normal?

00:16:29.320 I'm not saying it will be hell like this all the time, but there will always be fear, this combined with other people.

00:16:37.680 So, we will need...

00:16:40.040 Sorry?

00:16:40.660 Fear is also going to be controlled by the...

00:16:42.740 Let me ask you this.

00:16:43.620 What is your basic definition of capitalism, socialism, communism?

00:16:49.000 Socialism is meaningless for me.

00:16:50.660 I don't like the word because everybody likes to be socialist today in a vague sense.

00:16:56.420 Yeah, society should take care for everybody.

00:17:00.960 I mean by communism, nothing totalitarian and so on, not central committee rules or whatever,

00:17:09.040 but simply such reorganization of economy which consciously violates market principles.

00:17:17.920 That the motive of production is no longer a profit, we should...

00:17:23.000 For example, now when Trump is talking about getting out of the lockdown and start moving the economy.

00:17:31.340 But my idea is, of course, we cannot sit all the time in a lockdown.

00:17:37.820 But here already I have a first problem.

00:17:39.840 I've written about it.

00:17:40.840 For some of us to be safely in lockdown, quite many things have to go on, we discovered.

00:17:47.980 Healthcare, food distribution and so on and so on.

00:17:51.100 But more important, we should, violating market principles, prioritize things on which our survival as a normal civilized society depends.

00:18:03.660 It's what I say, healthcare.

00:18:05.980 Forget about our hospitals profitable and so on and so on.

00:18:09.920 We need an immensely stronger healthcare system.

00:18:14.560 We need to guarantee food distribution and so on.

00:18:17.800 And just talking about this, I'm not saying states should own everything and so on.

00:18:23.260 No.

00:18:24.100 Just it has to be somehow coordinated.

00:18:27.880 Socially coordinated.

00:18:29.340 Then you're not talking about communism.

00:18:30.980 But then you're not talking about the communism that Marx and Engels are talking about in the communist...

00:18:36.520 They were very ambiguous, Marx and Engels.

00:18:38.920 They were very ambiguous.

00:18:40.420 Marx was fanatically insecure and never provided definitive formulas.

00:18:47.020 You know, his only moment of enthusiasm was the Paris Commune.

00:18:51.860 But the Paris Commune was really more an anarchist things, local communities and so on and so on and so on.

00:18:59.120 No, but that's my irony.

00:19:00.940 When you ask me about communism, I will tell you what the states are doing today.

00:19:07.000 These are already elements of what I call communism.

00:19:09.860 We don't have time for respirators, for masks, to play all the market game.

00:19:15.740 This simply has to be done.

00:19:18.000 It's a matter of survival.

00:19:19.400 That's what I'm talking about.

00:19:20.600 But that's two different...

00:19:21.680 So let me ask you this.

00:19:22.660 I want to be specific with you here.

00:19:24.280 Yes, please.

00:19:24.740 The premise, the foundation of communism in the book, Communist Manifesto, the 10 points.

00:19:30.400 You know the 10 points.

00:19:31.280 I'll go through them.

00:19:32.020 I just don't think you agree with all these 10 points.

00:19:34.520 No.

00:19:34.620 Number one is abolishing of property and land and application of all rents and land to public purposes.

00:19:41.400 A heavy progressive and graduated income tax, which I think you probably agree with.

00:19:45.460 Abolishing of all rights of inheritance.

00:19:48.020 So inheritance, you don't get any of it.

00:19:50.440 Confiscation of the property of all immigrants and rebels. 0.92

00:19:53.040 Equal liability of all to labor and establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture.

00:19:59.340 The gradual abolishing of distinction between town and country.

00:20:03.120 Free education for all children in public schools.

00:20:05.520 Eliminating child labor, which you probably agree with.

00:20:08.000 Centralization of credit in the hands of the state.

00:20:10.700 The state would control communication and transportation.

00:20:14.080 The state factories and instruments of production would cultivate wasteland and improve the soil.

00:20:19.500 Which of those 10 do you disagree with?

00:20:21.500 First, I will tell you surprisingly with which I a little bit agree.

00:20:27.960 All good ecologists admit that one of the reasons of our ecological predicament is this imbalance between city and countryside.

00:20:41.780 When societies were organized in a more provincial way, all the sewage waste and so on, all the minerals were basically returned to land.

00:20:52.740 Now, products go from land, agricultural products to the city.

00:20:58.800 So we have to fertilize land. 0.88

00:21:01.220 And on the other hand, we have all the sewage, garbage and so on.

00:21:05.260 So I don't think this is even a specifically communist demand, this last one.

00:21:11.020 But again, don't focus too much on communist manifesto.

00:21:16.940 It was never my favorite text.

00:21:19.860 I define capitalism simply as a system of production where, and it was up to a point very successful,

00:21:29.700 where the idea is that it will be most productive for society, most efficient to satisfy society's needs,

00:21:40.180 if the motive is profit, self-valuation, circulation of capital, expansion, and so on and so on.

00:21:48.380 I think we are now in a situation where we cannot rely on that.

00:21:54.740 And I think it's not just a permanent, sorry, a short-time crisis, like they say,

00:22:01.120 but it was similar in World War II, Roosevelt has to order production of aircraft, tanks, whatever.

00:22:07.400 I think this situation will last.

00:22:10.420 And I think that's my secret hope.

00:22:13.420 This does not mean, okay, we will all become China.

00:22:17.200 China, it can be done in a more open, flexible way than the Chinese are doing. 1.00

00:22:24.400 But I just don't hear you being a communist.

00:22:27.600 You don't sound, because, so I grew up.

00:22:29.960 You know where?

00:22:30.640 Let me show you this painting behind me.

00:22:32.520 Do you see this painting behind me?

00:22:34.040 You know that?

00:22:34.420 Yeah, it's Einstein, it's Kennedy, I think, then it's Lincoln, then it's Martin Luther King on the other side.

00:22:41.660 Yes.

00:22:42.380 Then you have, in the middle, they have two books.

00:22:44.140 They have Communist Manifesto, and they have Atlas Shrugged, and they're debating these two philosophies, these two books.

00:22:51.300 Okay, they're talking about forms of economy.

00:22:53.580 Can I tell you something that will surprise our listeners?

00:22:56.820 Please.

00:22:57.380 Do you know that Ayn Rand is a very interesting author for me?

00:23:01.080 I don't despise her.

00:23:02.620 I published a text in, how do you call it, Journal of Objectivism or Samarand Studies and so on.

00:23:10.900 You know where she is right?

00:23:13.060 When she says, and Soviet Union, the history of Soviet Union confirms this, that there is this democratic aspect in money.

00:23:22.680 You pay me, which means we are on equal level, that money means we don't need direct violence constraint in social relations.

00:23:35.880 And she warns Ayn Rand, she warns that if you abolish money, the danger is not that you will have, like people imagine communism, you know, kind of a societal influence, but that direct domination will return.

00:23:55.360 There will be much more brutal power functioning and so on, because, again, money will not decide, so immediate relations of domination, power will have to decide who gets what.

00:24:06.560 And isn't this the lesson of Soviet Union?

00:24:08.860 Okay, they didn't abolish money, but money didn't function in the standard way.

00:24:14.480 The result was a brutal return of social relations of domination.

00:24:19.800 Not only this, even the social consequences, even the ecological consequences were much worse.

00:24:26.920 With all the critique of capitalism, how, because you care only for profit, you ignore ecological consequences.

00:24:34.140 Well, if anything, in classical communism, ecological situation was much worse, because you didn't have free control, free press, all the data where,

00:24:44.900 I know this, I know this, I'm following it, that's the irony of today's China, at least till this crisis, it was like these friends were telling me, 0.66

00:24:54.080 the really dangerous thing was not to be for more rule of law in the Western sense of freedom of capitalism.

00:25:02.380 The two really dangerous things to do in China, where, A, draw attention to ecological problems, try to write something about the problems they have with that gigantic three gorges, them, and the legs there.

00:25:17.580 That's the irony.

00:25:19.220 Organizing workers.

00:25:20.700 Some of my friends, Marxists there, got in contact with workers in some factories around Beijing, and saw their poison, illnesses, workers are dying, they were immediately arrested.

00:25:36.060 What I mean is that, and it's immensely productive, this capitalist machinery.

00:25:41.640 I claim we cannot afford it.

00:25:44.920 I'm not saying we totally abolish it.

00:25:47.040 I think we need, in the long term, some kind of socially controlled influence.

00:25:53.860 Like, how will you decide today about producing respirators, healthcare, and so on, and so on?

00:26:00.500 You cannot leave it to the market.

00:26:02.860 Would you consider yourself a communist today?

00:26:05.460 Yes, but that's my irony.

00:26:08.460 Communist in the sense in which I see elements of communism in what today governments are forced to do.

00:26:16.620 You mentioned, you mentioned, from that list in the Communist Manifesto, you mentioned nationalization of transport.

00:26:23.320 Boris Johnson temporarily nationalized the British Airways.

00:26:27.740 Things have to be done in this way.

00:26:30.720 But this, again, I return to my basic point.

00:26:33.560 I think that, from the standpoint of capitalist logic, giving people to people trillions, and so on, it doesn't work.

00:26:44.320 This money will never be returned, and so on.

00:26:46.980 Here's what I think about you, though.

00:26:48.360 I don't think you're a communist, because I think you need to create a new philosophy called Zizekism, not communism.

00:26:55.800 Because if the founder of communism is Karl Marx in 1840, whatever the timeline is, 1840, if he's the founder of it, and he pretty much believes the government controls,

00:27:09.680 and the people, you know, follow the rules of the government, and taxes is pretty much 100%, you're not able to go out and create jobs.

00:27:17.240 That's what the person thinks about my family.

00:27:20.140 My mother said they're communists.

00:27:21.420 They're from Baku, and they shifted as they age about getting away from communism.

00:27:26.320 My dad's family's imperialism.

00:27:28.060 I just don't think you're a communist, because in the sense of communism, communism, the way it's ran, when it comes down to taxes, control,

00:27:36.680 like you talk about China in your book, and you highlight China being a great success story.

00:27:42.260 You said this.

00:27:42.900 These are your words.

00:27:43.580 Not to a point.

00:27:44.320 Don't exaggerate.

00:27:45.560 Don't exaggerate.

00:27:46.440 I know, I know, but it's a success story, but at the same time…

00:27:49.440 It's a unique combination of authoritarian communism with brutal capitalism.

00:27:55.060 Sure, but is it fair to say that a true communistic nation requires force for it to work?

00:28:04.020 You can't give choices to people, because if you have choices, it cannot exist.

00:28:08.780 It's got to be force and control for the philosophy of communism to exist.

00:28:14.020 Wouldn't you agree?

00:28:14.660 I doubt if you find this really in Marx.

00:28:17.200 I'm not trying to save Marx.

00:28:18.980 I'm not a naive guy.

00:28:20.680 You know, many Marxist friends of mine try to define the moment when things went wrong.

00:28:29.180 For Trotsky, Lenin is still good.

00:28:31.880 It's with Stalin that things went wrong.

00:28:34.680 For others, it's Lenin.

00:28:36.760 For some, it's already Marx.

00:28:38.640 No, I think, in some sense, even if Marx didn't want, didn't have in his head the Soviet model.

00:28:47.020 But nonetheless, his philosophy, theory, grounded the Soviet model.

00:28:54.100 I think that that type of communism is over.

00:28:58.220 This is what the end of the Cold War meant.

00:29:01.740 The 20th century is over.

00:29:04.280 That type of communism, I don't believe it can be solved.

00:29:08.280 I will even tell you a nice joke.

00:29:11.080 I hope our viewers will appreciate it.

00:29:14.600 You know, when Fidel Castro died, it's a very nasty, tasteless joke that I used.

00:29:19.860 I defined it.

00:29:20.660 I remember when I visited Cuba once, 20 years ago, incidentally, purely a private visit.

00:29:26.780 I encountered on the street a guy who was pro-Castro.

00:29:31.040 And he proudly showed me this half a baldone building in ruins and says, 1.00

00:29:38.100 you see, he didn't cover up the misery.

00:29:41.240 But he says, you see, this is our greatness.

00:29:43.960 Even if we suffer poverty, we don't betray our idea.

00:29:48.860 We are faithful.

00:29:49.760 The very misery proves that we are principal.

00:29:54.020 And I told the guy, it didn't end well.

00:29:57.040 Ah, no wonder that your leader is called Fidel Castro.

00:30:01.320 Fidelity to castration.

00:30:02.980 You are castrated in total poverty, but you remain faithful to me.

00:30:07.800 You are trying to sell your misery itself as a success.

00:30:12.400 And even, I must say, you know who were for me good guys of even radical leftists in power,

00:30:18.400 so that you will not suspect.

00:30:19.520 From the very beginning, I had doubts about Hugo Chavez.

00:30:23.560 Yes, Americans plotted against him, all that, blah, blah.

00:30:27.620 It's all true.

00:30:28.800 And this is a much more interesting story about Venezuela.

00:30:34.080 Chavez.

00:30:34.360 My definition of Chavez is he was Fidel Castro with too much money.

00:30:39.540 It all fell apart when there was no longer money.

00:30:43.460 Why?

00:30:43.900 I know because I knew people who were close to him.

00:30:47.300 He desperately tried to invent an alternate model.

00:30:50.860 state-run companies, giving companies to workers themselves to manage it, and it didn't work.

00:30:58.740 They did not really succeed in inventing a new principle of socioeconomic organization.

00:31:08.260 You know, so my models, we know which was a success story.

00:31:11.740 Here, I beg to defer from predominant liberal version.

00:31:15.400 I had good connections there.

00:31:17.040 I knew Linera, Morales, vice president.

00:31:20.420 They were not doing such a bad, Linera and Morales.

00:31:24.160 You know, economy was doing quite well, and so on, and so on.

00:31:28.200 But they did it in a very careful way.

00:31:30.820 They did not alienate brutally the capital.

00:31:34.220 They knew how to play the game.

00:31:36.060 Would you agree with me here?

00:31:37.900 I despise radical leftists who are fascinated by this idea of, you know, oh, what an enthusiastic moment.

00:31:47.980 One million people on some square.

00:31:50.180 We were all crying together, you know, on Syntagma Square, Tahrir Square, whatever.

00:31:56.080 No, I'm a strange communist.

00:31:57.900 I'm the communist of a morning after.

00:32:00.380 I say, okay, nice.

00:32:01.840 You have this enthusiastic moment.

00:32:03.540 What interests me is what happens the morning after when this enthusiasm is over and life returns to normal.

00:32:12.500 How will ordinary people feel the change?

00:32:16.700 And many leftists that I know are so fixated on this magic moment, you know.

00:32:22.800 We were there, one million people was united.

00:32:25.640 Tell you another story.

00:32:26.540 I hope it's similar.

00:32:27.720 Did you see the movie, or I hope our viewers did, V for Vendetta?

00:32:32.260 Yes.

00:32:32.660 You know what happens at the end of the movie?

00:32:35.340 People win.

00:32:36.400 They break the barrier.

00:32:37.700 They take over the parliament.

00:32:39.320 In one of my previous books, the introduction has the title, V for Vendetta Part 2.

00:32:46.500 And as I put it in my tasteless way, I would sell my mother into slavery to see V for Vendetta Part 2. 1.00

00:32:55.080 Okay, people won.

00:32:56.600 What do they do next?

00:32:57.900 How do they reorganize life efficiently and so on?

00:33:00.940 That's the challenge today.

00:33:02.660 I'm here extremely pragmatically.

00:33:05.900 You think free people would go towards communism more than they would go towards capitalism?

00:33:13.800 It all depends.

00:33:14.920 What do you mean by communism?

00:33:16.920 Of course not with all the successes, let's say.

00:33:21.840 Can you define communism in one sentence?

00:33:24.620 Can you do it in one sentence?

00:33:26.180 Return to what I already said, where what moves production is not profitability, but in some sense, social power directly violating the loss of the market, strong influence on what should be produced and so on and so on.

00:33:45.480 It's more an emergency state.

00:33:47.480 And I think we are forced to do this.

00:33:50.980 My point is, we are doing this today.

00:33:53.720 Don't you see?

00:33:54.760 This is what I'm afraid.

00:33:56.160 Go to the United States or even in Europe.

00:33:59.200 Now, this opening up of the lockdown, even if there will be more people who die and so on and so on.

00:34:07.240 I wish all the best to the American people, but I doubt if it will work.

00:34:12.400 I think that stronger state control is needed, stronger global cooperation is needed.

00:34:19.020 I think that we need a new globalization.

00:34:21.520 You just said you like the end of V for Vendetta where people are free.

00:34:26.780 No, I don't like them.

00:34:28.240 It's a fake.

00:34:29.380 I would like part two.

00:34:31.780 What happens then?

00:34:33.420 Next day.

00:34:34.520 Okay, people are...

00:34:35.400 Are you saying free people will break things more than a controlled government will break things?

00:34:43.380 It can also be a catastrophe.

00:34:45.400 It's a great problem which is not resolved.

00:34:48.400 Don't you...

00:34:48.880 Again, I ask you, can you even imagine V for Vendetta part two?

00:34:54.060 What will they do?

00:34:55.300 Okay, some kind of...

00:34:56.320 We're living it.

00:34:56.880 Well, we're living it, though.

00:34:57.940 I mean, there's many examples of it all over the world.

00:35:00.320 We are a byproduct of V for Vendetta part two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten.

00:35:06.860 Meaning, this isn't a first time where people have won and they've just said, look, leave me alone.

00:35:14.020 Let me build my life.

00:35:15.300 If I want to be a millionaire, let me be.

00:35:17.280 If I want to be broke and just live a small life and go fishing every day and I just want to make enough money to buy food, let me do it.

00:35:22.880 If I want to be a Christian, leave me alone.

00:35:24.580 I don't have any problems with this.

00:35:27.220 I don't have any problems with this.

00:35:28.780 Communism is about force.

00:35:30.360 Communism is a lot about force.

00:35:33.200 What communism of the 20th century, I agree.

00:35:38.800 But don't you think that...

00:35:40.880 Again, now you are too abstract for me.

00:35:43.140 Let's return to today's situation.

00:35:45.800 Just please try to imagine not a way out in the sense that the virus disappears,

00:35:51.400 but a way out in the sense of some new way of life where we will somehow manage to have a decent life, daily life.

00:36:02.960 I'm not talking about big models.

00:36:05.260 Can you imagine it without, again, some kind of social control, not total control?

00:36:13.460 I'm not saying states should determine what clothes you wear, what toothpaste, and so on and so on.

00:36:19.820 I'm saying these basics, healthcare, here, it's much even worse than Bernie Sanders predicted.

00:36:27.460 Now, it's clear that we don't need only universal healthcare within states.

00:36:33.560 We need some kind of, not centralized, but globally coordinated healthcare.

00:36:40.460 If you have millions infected in Africa, Europe will not be safe and so on and so on. 1.00

00:36:45.980 So, healthcare, food distribution and so on.

00:36:49.680 Market can survive, especially for these small daily things and so on.

00:36:56.380 I don't have any problems with this.

00:36:58.460 Somehow it should be socially regulated.

00:37:02.100 Tell me, okay, what would you have done?

00:37:04.500 Aren't governments now doing this?

00:37:06.900 They tell me, yes, capitalism always does this, but only at the local, only for a limited time,

00:37:13.740 as long as the crisis is over.

00:37:15.360 I think the problem is that this crisis will not be over so soon.

00:37:21.120 It will, in one or another form, last.

00:37:24.740 So, again, I think some kind of social coordination, which still leaves open market forces and so on,

00:37:34.060 just, it will have to be coordinated in a different way.

00:37:37.980 But that lies like multiple arguments, Slavoj, because the argument is, you put yourself as a communist.

00:37:46.800 When somebody says you're a communist, are you offended when somebody says,

00:37:50.160 my next guest is Slavoj Žižek, he's a communist.

00:37:52.820 Are you offended by that?

00:37:55.080 Usually I am, because what they do, like I had that strange exchange, I don't know if you follow it,

00:38:01.320 with Brazilian foreign minister, who reacted to my book and wrote an open letter,

00:38:07.760 like I'm using CoronaVisor to spread another even more dangerous visor.

00:38:12.860 And, of course, what he did is, communism, then he associated,

00:38:16.720 we know what communism is from Stalin and so on, no, and this is what I want.

00:38:22.420 My answer is, no, I just am looking at what governments are doing now all around the world.

00:38:31.320 These are, for me, already, in some sense, communist measures.

00:38:36.060 I get that, but what I'm saying is, are you still comfortable on the bottom right,

00:38:41.060 when it says Slavoj Žižek, for it to say communist, do you?

00:38:45.780 I am not comfortable, because usually people react to this in two opposite ways.

00:38:52.280 Either they say, oh, deep in his heart, he's still an old Stalinist, no, it's that communism.

00:38:57.780 Or they say, he's just joking, he doesn't mean it seriously.

00:39:02.440 I can see it more being Žižekism. 0.66

00:39:05.120 Again, let me explain why, because I know, I studied this, I'm in the world,

00:39:11.020 I was in the world where my mother's side, everybody was,

00:39:14.360 so everything for us was studying this world and understanding this world.

00:39:18.340 You don't sound like a communist at all.

00:39:21.080 You don't sound like a communist.

00:39:21.760 I don't care.

00:39:23.080 All I care is that the things that I see that urgently has to be done, will be done.

00:39:29.420 Global health care, coordination of food distribution, and so on.

00:39:34.040 I think there will be tremendous challenges with global warming and so on.

00:39:39.240 One, for example, my favorite example, maybe you know it.

00:39:42.440 My good friend Jean-Pierre Dupuy, an excellent French theorist of catastrophes,

00:39:48.520 was in Japan, in Fukushima, as member of a European delegation,

00:39:53.960 two, three days after the catastrophe.

00:39:56.420 And they told me, you know that for a couple of hours,

00:39:58.640 the Japanese government thought that they will have to evacuate the entire Tokyo area.

00:40:04.660 Then they decided not to.

00:40:06.620 But there will be more situations like this.

00:40:11.220 And if you look at it with some kind of abstract rationality,

00:40:17.000 it would be easy even to solve this problem,

00:40:19.720 to make a special deal with Russia.

00:40:22.540 He gives to tens of millions of Japanese, part of Siberia, whatever, I don't know.

00:40:27.460 We will need, with geological weather changes that are coming,

00:40:32.400 we will need to do things.

00:40:34.260 I don't know what, there will be catastrophes, we have to get ready.

00:40:38.180 But that to me is not communism, that just means...

00:40:40.500 Okay, okay, okay, I'm not...

00:40:42.460 You know why I use the word communism, I'll also tell you?

00:40:45.700 To signal that I'm nonetheless talking about real change.

00:40:50.380 And my problem with China is precisely that they are... 1.00

00:40:56.100 Okay, it's too cheap to say.

00:40:57.900 I don't believe in some authentic communism and they are not.

00:41:01.080 They are basically combining, it's not even communism,

00:41:06.940 capitalism with a strong authoritarian state.

00:41:11.000 It's as simple as that.

00:41:12.220 And I don't see even anything specifically communist in what they are doing.

00:41:18.500 You don't see in what they're doing?

00:41:19.880 Controlling the no free press, no free speech,

00:41:23.940 you can't say anything about the regime?

00:41:25.560 That's not a form of communism.

00:41:28.260 Wait a minute.

00:41:29.700 Why should this be communism?

00:41:32.060 This is not exclusive of communism.

00:41:34.220 You have other forms of authoritarian government and so on and so on.

00:41:38.200 The state would control communication and transportation.

00:41:40.800 That's from Karl Marx Communist Manifesto.

00:41:43.600 The state...

00:41:44.000 Okay, okay.

00:41:44.700 But let me ask you another thing in China.

00:41:48.520 Let me give you another proof.

00:41:50.940 As every communist country, they have a sacred book,

00:41:54.180 a history of Chinese Communist Party, that everybody has to read.

00:41:58.220 You know what happened some 10 years ago,

00:42:00.680 when this free trade union movement started in China?

00:42:04.560 A chapter disappeared from that.

00:42:06.560 A Chinese friend showed it to me.

00:42:08.480 A chapter which describes part of the history of the Communist Party of China,

00:42:14.400 which was quite honorable.

00:42:16.140 In the late 20s, when there was fast economic development,

00:42:20.400 at least before the Japanese invasion in the area of Shanghai and so on,

00:42:25.040 communists did a pretty good job organizing workers for their rights and so on and so on.

00:42:30.940 That chapter disappeared.

00:42:32.520 You know why?

00:42:33.260 Because that's the worst thing you can do today in China.

00:42:36.420 to organize autonomously workers.

00:42:40.560 Isn't the basic idea of communism, workers should organize themselves?

00:42:46.100 Where do you have even a minimal element of this in China?

00:42:49.960 No, but here I also, at another level, sorry.

00:42:53.320 I don't know.

00:42:54.220 Let me finish, then you will be surprised.

00:42:56.840 At another level, I'm not a communist.

00:42:59.720 In the usual sense, this sounds horrible for an orthodox Marxist.

00:43:03.940 I like a certain form of alienation.

00:43:07.560 Can you imagine a greater hell than this?

00:43:11.240 Now, today, that classical social democracy is out of fashion,

00:43:15.640 traditional communism is out.

00:43:17.700 What remains with some leftists are these ideas of local self-management,

00:43:23.860 organic communities.

00:43:25.740 People organize locally their life and so on and so on.

00:43:29.020 This would be hell to live in a place like this.

00:43:31.780 Every afternoon, I have to have a collective debate,

00:43:35.180 how we organize school, food distribution, whatever.

00:43:38.940 I like alienation.

00:43:41.660 I would like, I like to have a certain invisible public authority

00:43:47.760 which takes care of things, electricity, water, health,

00:43:52.860 so that I can do and you can do if you want.

00:43:56.800 We can do our stupid things, you know, read books or whatever.

00:44:00.780 I think that this idea of totally transparent society

00:44:06.260 where we local communities run our own affairs

00:44:09.880 is the last point of usual leftist utopia which has to be drawn.

00:44:15.920 So, no, I'm not the usual communist.

00:44:18.100 I just don't think you're communist.

00:44:20.540 I just don't think you're communist.

00:44:21.980 That's the only thing.

00:44:22.760 I think because...

00:44:23.400 Then it doesn't matter.

00:44:24.560 Just let's do things.

00:44:26.280 I still, what I still insist is on the list of the things that are necessary.

00:44:32.180 So, let me ask you a question.

00:44:33.320 What do you think about, what do you think about,

00:44:35.580 are you a sports guy?

00:44:36.620 Do you like sports?

00:44:38.280 Do I look like one?

00:44:40.460 But I use always...

00:44:41.540 I always use this.

00:44:46.100 You know, I have a metaphysical problem here.

00:44:48.440 It may amuse you.

00:44:49.760 We see Wins, okay, before the global warming,

00:44:52.160 we were doing a lot of skiing, you know.

00:44:54.260 And I have a metaphysical problem with skiing.

00:44:57.660 Why?

00:44:58.260 You climb a mountain and then you slide down.

00:45:01.680 What is the point?

00:45:02.940 Stay down and read a good book.

00:45:04.560 For example, soccer, European football.

00:45:08.940 I know I'm missing something, but I'm not interested in it.

00:45:12.780 Look, why should I care if one vulgar idiot kicks a ball better than another one?

00:45:19.740 It doesn't fascinate me.

00:45:21.500 I'm very conservative.

00:45:23.120 I like classical music.

00:45:24.600 I like classical literature.

00:45:26.260 Even in art, I like classical Hollywood.

00:45:29.460 You know who are me, the great guys?

00:45:31.460 Ernst Lubitz, for example.

00:45:33.000 With friends, we wrote a book on Ernst Lubitz.

00:45:35.780 Did you see to be or not to be?

00:45:38.660 Isn't this one of the greatest movies?

00:45:40.580 Can you think ideal?

00:45:42.540 Ernst Lubitz, Alfred Hitchcock.

00:45:45.980 We did books on him and so on and so on.

00:45:48.500 I think I was always defending Hollywood.

00:45:51.780 You know, I hate those lefties. 0.99

00:45:53.400 Hollywood personalized and then please spare me.

00:45:57.320 There are so many well-meant movies from third world

00:46:01.640 which are very progressive and so on, but simply boring.

00:46:05.340 Hollywood knows its job.

00:46:07.420 It's a miracle.

00:46:08.640 I wonder just how will Hollywood reinvent itself now?

00:46:12.660 Don't you think there is a problem here?

00:46:14.220 There's going to be a problem.

00:46:15.260 They're going to have a challenge.

00:46:16.500 Yeah.

00:46:16.860 What will they do?

00:46:17.980 How will fiction be reinvented?

00:46:21.520 Well, the challenge they're facing is a beautiful thing called competition.

00:46:27.740 That's a beautiful thing.

00:46:29.480 Did you watch Ricky Gervais' message at, was it ESPYs or Oscars?

00:46:33.460 Which one was it?

00:46:35.300 Did you watch him give the, Ricky Gervais, the comedian,

00:46:38.040 gave the talk at Golden Globes that went viral?

00:46:40.300 No, no, but I know him.

00:46:41.520 I know him.

00:46:42.080 Yes, I...

00:46:42.660 So I'll send you the link afterwards for you to watch.

00:46:45.580 One of the things he talked about,

00:46:46.900 the reason why Hollywood is not happy right now

00:46:48.720 is because there is competition.

00:46:51.300 And competition is Netflix.

00:46:53.800 Hollywood used to be able to control that you could only,

00:46:56.540 there was only one way to get on TV and a big screen.

00:46:59.620 There's so many ways today they don't like that.

00:47:01.820 That is something communism doesn't like.

00:47:04.260 Communism doesn't like competition.

00:47:05.600 No, I can't.

00:47:06.340 This is part of my notion of communism, my God.

00:47:09.520 Netflix, it's a very ambiguous thing.

00:47:11.840 I'm not opposed to Netflix.

00:47:13.800 I didn't like especially the movie,

00:47:15.380 how was it called, with Robert De Niro,

00:47:17.880 about the murder of Jimmy Cofa, Irishman, yes.

00:47:21.200 Did you notice something very strange about that movie?

00:47:24.340 The costs were immense, 200 millions, even more.

00:47:27.560 There was no box office receipt or whatever.

00:47:32.140 They did it in a very strange way,

00:47:34.600 which in some sense no longer follows the commercial rules and so on.

00:47:38.640 That's the point, that's competition.

00:47:39.980 They're going a different direction.

00:47:42.840 Yeah, but it's not a commercial profit competition.

00:47:45.840 In my communism, there is all the place for this type of competition.

00:47:49.980 That's why Netflix is doing a lot of garbage,

00:47:53.060 but also a lot of very good things.

00:47:55.580 That's the big story of even HBO, quality TV,

00:47:59.660 HBO, Netflix, and so on and so on.

00:48:01.900 I think, I hope that Disney will lose

00:48:04.880 and these guys, Netflix and HBO will win.

00:48:08.100 So now, you sound more socialist now.

00:48:11.320 Now you're officially a socialist.

00:48:12.940 You're not a communist.

00:48:13.620 Okay, I don't care what you call it.

00:48:15.440 I'm not a dogmatic here.

00:48:17.120 I mean, I criticize Marx very much when it's needed and so on.

00:48:22.220 My point is only, again, I will share Marx's admiration of capitalism.

00:48:28.140 You know, Marx said two things which are true today.

00:48:32.700 Yes, we have to move over from capitalism that we know it,

00:48:36.780 but only through capitalism.

00:48:38.800 There is freedom only if you pass through capitalism.

00:48:42.220 Marx was always opposed to all returns to some ancient,

00:48:47.320 more organic community, authority, and so on and so on.

00:48:50.780 And this is why Marx's relationship to capitalism

00:48:54.640 is deeply a love-hate relationship.

00:48:57.400 He was fascinated by it.

00:48:59.580 It has its destructive potentials,

00:49:01.860 but at the same time, Marx was well aware of this.

00:49:05.480 All our notions of personal freedom and so on

00:49:09.200 emerged as part of the capitalist universe.

00:49:14.100 Marx is not criticizing capitalism

00:49:17.120 from some original full human right position,

00:49:20.960 but the idea is that capitalism doesn't meet

00:49:25.060 what doesn't fulfill its own promises.

00:49:28.760 It's still an imminent critique of Marx's history.

00:49:32.100 That's why Marx would have been horrified by this idea

00:49:35.620 of some Latino-American leftists looking for some ancient Aztec.

00:49:41.320 Sendero Luminoso, you must know we're doing this.

00:49:44.420 Some Aztec or Inca community, that should be our model. 1.00

00:49:50.640 No, we have to go through capitalist modernity.

00:49:53.960 Yeah, I think the capitalism doesn't work

00:49:56.600 when the capitalists start buying politicians and lobbying,

00:50:01.340 and then it becomes crony capitalism.

00:50:02.760 Then the government and the capitalists team up.

00:50:05.820 That's definitely not the capitalism I'm talking about

00:50:07.760 because that is what you call the highest level of monopoly.

00:50:12.280 When a company can buy votes

00:50:14.380 and a company can buy politicians,

00:50:16.900 that's when capitalism breaks down.

00:50:18.660 You know what, I want to make more here.

00:50:21.300 Don't think only at the level of personal corruption.

00:50:24.740 It's more intricate how systems are combined.

00:50:27.880 Now we know, that's what I learned from Julian Assange,

00:50:30.660 how Google is connected with NSA and so on and so on.

00:50:35.260 You know, the links are deeper, are institutional.

00:50:38.500 It's not just, you know, one rich capitalist,

00:50:43.220 whatever is directly buying and so on.

00:50:46.040 But what nonetheless fascinates me,

00:50:48.140 it's how some progressive,

00:50:50.780 I don't know why I call them progressive capitalists,

00:50:52.880 like Bill Gates and so on,

00:50:54.980 I don't totally trust them.

00:50:57.020 But they see this.

00:50:58.580 Warren Buffett, I saw,

00:51:00.640 said a couple of days ago,

00:51:02.260 market is great,

00:51:03.580 but we need a state.

00:51:05.280 Bill Gates said,

00:51:06.360 capitalism is great,

00:51:08.100 but there are things

00:51:09.620 which shouldn't be left to capitalist gain,

00:51:12.220 and so on and so on.

00:51:13.600 That's what I'm saying.

00:51:15.000 And again, it can be done,

00:51:16.900 not in the same way as it was done

00:51:19.040 in Sweden and the golden era of social democracy,

00:51:22.180 but that's the only direction that I see.

00:51:27.760 Do you think those guys,

00:51:29.420 even the Buffetts and the Gates,

00:51:31.300 in order for them to protect their wealth,

00:51:33.460 they have to also make sure

00:51:34.600 they give respect to the state,

00:51:36.140 or else the state can make their life a living hell,

00:51:39.200 so they have to make sure publicly

00:51:40.700 they kind of say,

00:51:42.200 hey, state, please don't bother me.

00:51:44.240 I do think that's a very power play

00:51:46.540 that they're making as well.

00:51:47.640 There are people.

00:51:48.360 Of course, but still,

00:51:51.340 I don't care what dirty private motives they have,

00:51:55.000 but their message is important,

00:51:57.720 which is, again,

00:51:59.560 market cannot do all the job

00:52:01.700 in critical moments,

00:52:03.700 which now are not just a year or two,

00:52:06.080 for decades,

00:52:07.100 state, or maybe we will have to,

00:52:08.980 I don't know,

00:52:09.740 invent some other forms of social coordination,

00:52:13.500 we'll have to play a much stronger role.

00:52:16.860 One of the things that I was,

00:52:18.580 my kids were offended by your book,

00:52:20.320 I'm going to tell you,

00:52:20.840 was very offensive,

00:52:21.920 a part of your book.

00:52:22.880 Which one?

00:52:23.780 Which one?

00:52:24.300 My eight-year-old,

00:52:25.240 my six-year-old,

00:52:26.140 I read them a part of the book,

00:52:27.640 they were furious with you,

00:52:28.980 I think it's very...

00:52:29.440 Which one?

00:52:29.780 Which one?

00:52:30.140 I'm going to read it to you,

00:52:31.220 it's very offensive,

00:52:32.140 they were upset,

00:52:33.460 and they said,

00:52:33.960 Dad,

00:52:34.260 please bring this up to them,

00:52:35.880 there's a part in your book

00:52:37.020 where you say,

00:52:38.140 amusement parks are turning into ghost towns,

00:52:41.380 perfect,

00:52:42.260 I cannot imagine a more boring and stupid place

00:52:45.020 than Disneyland,

00:52:45.920 what do you have against Disneyland?

00:52:48.300 Ah,

00:52:48.860 here I have a precise answer,

00:52:50.540 I was not bluffing,

00:52:51.980 I love good amusement parks,

00:52:54.240 but I was,

00:52:55.600 10 years ago,

00:52:57.120 for a week,

00:52:58.040 Orlando,

00:52:58.640 Florida,

00:52:59.440 it was boring,

00:53:00.820 everything was totally predictable,

00:53:03.040 no,

00:53:03.260 I was specific against Disneyland,

00:53:06.080 where are you in Orlando?

00:53:07.580 Okay.

00:53:07.800 Many times.

00:53:08.780 Yeah,

00:53:09.340 Universal Studios was much more,

00:53:11.320 not much better,

00:53:12.220 but was much more interesting for me,

00:53:14.320 and so on.

00:53:14.700 I'm with you,

00:53:15.360 I'm more Universal Studios than Disneyland.

00:53:17.640 Yeah,

00:53:18.100 I will put it like this,

00:53:19.320 now I will play your game.

00:53:21.420 In Disneyland,

00:53:22.360 there is simply not enough competition.

00:53:24.840 You have their free TV in your room,

00:53:27.380 and you get just stupid, 0.84

00:53:29.380 not even the best,

00:53:30.920 the best Disney cartoons we know,

00:53:33.000 are from the 30s and 40s,

00:53:34.720 the early Donald Duck and so on.

00:53:36.720 You don't get that,

00:53:38.140 all is repetitive and so on,

00:53:40.040 so obviously artificial,

00:53:41.720 and so on and so on.

00:53:43.280 So this is not against amusement parks,

00:53:46.480 it's just Disneyland is,

00:53:49.140 I don't get it.

00:53:50.440 Why?

00:53:50.860 Even,

00:53:51.240 you know,

00:53:51.660 did you visit Euro,

00:53:53.460 the one near Paris?

00:53:55.060 No.

00:53:55.400 How is it called,

00:53:56.160 Euro? 0.83

00:53:56.780 There is a Disneyland

00:53:57.740 in the suburbs of Paris.

00:53:59.640 Oh yes,

00:54:00.160 but I haven't been to it,

00:54:01.140 yes.

00:54:01.640 That one is a little bit better.

00:54:03.620 So no,

00:54:04.040 no,

00:54:04.180 no.

00:54:04.440 Do you have a personal issue

00:54:05.880 with Mickey Mouse?

00:54:06.600 Like,

00:54:06.920 is there a personal vendetta

00:54:09.300 or challenge you have with them

00:54:10.480 or no?

00:54:11.300 Okay,

00:54:12.080 as all intellectual friends of mine,

00:54:14.320 I of course prefer,

00:54:15.680 prefer Donald Duck

00:54:17.400 because he's nervous,

00:54:19.020 hysterical,

00:54:20.140 like me and so on,

00:54:21.760 you know.

00:54:22.300 But no,

00:54:23.040 again,

00:54:23.480 it's what you mentioned,

00:54:24.520 this monopolization,

00:54:26.080 which makes it boring,

00:54:28.240 you know.

00:54:28.840 Something doesn't fit,

00:54:30.740 and maybe there must be,

00:54:32.240 I don't know,

00:54:33.440 other types of,

00:54:34.380 but that's that one.

00:54:35.940 So tell your son,

00:54:37.180 don't go to Disneyland,

00:54:38.700 my God,

00:54:39.300 go to Universal,

00:54:41.080 go to other parks,

00:54:42.180 and so on.

00:54:42.720 Here's what you need to know about us.

00:54:44.020 By the way,

00:54:44.420 Disneyland wasn't made for me and you,

00:54:46.220 just so you know,

00:54:46.880 Disneyland's made for,

00:54:48.320 you know,

00:54:48.780 five-year-olds.

00:54:49.360 We're not the market of Disneyland.

00:54:51.780 Myself,

00:54:52.240 my kids,

00:54:53.640 we like to go to Universal Studios

00:54:55.580 twice a year.

00:54:56.380 We're not a Disneyland family.

00:54:57.900 Yeah,

00:54:58.040 I was giving you a hard time

00:54:59.500 with Universal Studios family

00:55:00.840 because you can imagine stuff.

00:55:02.960 It's creative,

00:55:03.800 you know,

00:55:03.940 you're brave.

00:55:04.420 Yeah,

00:55:04.700 yeah,

00:55:05.140 yeah.

00:55:05.500 And I love that.

00:55:06.480 My kids kind of like,

00:55:07.260 oh my gosh,

00:55:08.200 did you see that?

00:55:08.920 That's crazy.

00:55:09.860 So,

00:55:10.460 you know what,

00:55:11.760 you seem like the right kind of a person

00:55:13.440 to go to Universal Studios with.

00:55:15.060 I bet somebody's got to follow you

00:55:16.740 with a camera

00:55:17.280 and go to Universal Studios

00:55:18.400 just to see.

00:55:19.160 But you know,

00:55:19.580 a tragedy happened there

00:55:20.780 precisely when I was there

00:55:21.960 10 years ago.

00:55:23.520 Till that point,

00:55:24.800 there was

00:55:25.380 a Hitchcock pavilion

00:55:27.460 where

00:55:28.820 you could look

00:55:29.840 from the rear window

00:55:31.140 and see

00:55:31.760 the whole garden

00:55:33.140 was recreated.

00:55:35.160 They abolished it

00:55:35.960 for some stupid

00:55:37.220 pirates of the Caribbean.

00:55:38.700 I don't know which one.

00:55:40.160 This was a tragedy for me.

00:55:42.200 Have you been to the one in LA?

00:55:43.620 Have you been to the one in LA

00:55:44.900 or no?

00:55:45.520 Universal Studios in LA?

00:55:46.380 No, Universal.

00:55:48.420 I was only

00:55:49.160 with my older son

00:55:51.360 20 years ago

00:55:52.840 in Disneyland LA.

00:55:54.980 I highly recommend,

00:55:57.080 I highly,

00:55:57.840 when the dust settles,

00:55:59.020 I highly recommend

00:56:00.340 figuring out a way

00:56:02.160 to go there

00:56:02.800 because it's

00:56:03.660 an incredible experience

00:56:05.240 right now.

00:56:05.640 They've done a phenomenal job

00:56:06.860 to it

00:56:07.260 on how it's at.

00:56:08.580 But Slavoj,

00:56:09.660 we're at the end.

00:56:10.380 The last part of the interview,

00:56:11.580 I like to do a speed round.

00:56:12.720 I give you a name

00:56:13.480 or a topic,

00:56:14.120 you give me one word

00:56:15.000 that comes to your mind.

00:56:15.820 I give you a name.

00:56:17.020 You give me a train.

00:56:18.060 Okay, okay.

00:56:19.100 Okay.

00:56:19.580 Michael Sorkin.

00:56:21.240 He was a personal friend,

00:56:22.880 so I'm sad.

00:56:24.000 And I loved his

00:56:24.940 good friend,

00:56:26.320 so I'm too traumatized

00:56:27.640 to do it.

00:56:28.360 He was a wonderful,

00:56:29.800 eccentric guy.

00:56:30.820 I loved him.

00:56:31.600 Karl Marx.

00:56:33.460 Ambiguous.

00:56:34.100 If you ask me

00:56:34.980 at a gunpoint,

00:56:36.180 is Marx my favorite philosopher?

00:56:38.060 I say, no, Hegel.

00:56:39.380 I think we should return

00:56:40.580 from Marx to Hegel

00:56:41.920 because Marx still hoped

00:56:43.940 there will be

00:56:45.080 a big event revolution.

00:56:47.680 Hegel's perspective

00:56:48.660 is different.

00:56:49.720 Revolution happened

00:56:50.740 with French terror 0.85

00:56:52.140 and so on.

00:56:53.320 And so Hegel

00:56:54.420 is always

00:56:55.260 interested

00:56:56.300 in how

00:56:57.060 even the best ideas,

00:56:59.240 emancipatory

00:56:59.280 and so on,

00:57:00.960 can turn wrong.

00:57:02.420 I think Hegel

00:57:03.020 would be

00:57:03.400 fascinated

00:57:04.340 by how

00:57:05.260 something which

00:57:06.460 was not so bad,

00:57:07.800 I still insist,

00:57:09.180 Bolshevik,

00:57:09.280 Bolshevik,

00:57:10.080 popular uprising revolution.

00:57:11.800 What did we get?

00:57:13.200 Stalinism.

00:57:13.860 And I don't buy

00:57:14.540 these naive stories

00:57:15.640 because Lenin died

00:57:17.280 too early.

00:57:18.040 You know,

00:57:18.340 this Trotsky dream.

00:57:19.720 If Lenin were to survive

00:57:20.960 two years more

00:57:21.820 and made a pact

00:57:23.180 with Trotsky,

00:57:23.920 there would be no Stalinism.

00:57:25.380 Well, maybe,

00:57:25.860 but there is

00:57:26.960 a certain

00:57:27.640 necessity

00:57:28.500 in

00:57:28.960 Stalinism.

00:57:31.140 And we have

00:57:31.600 so this is

00:57:33.040 typical

00:57:33.580 Hegelian theory.

00:57:34.860 Hegel is the greatest

00:57:35.700 pessimist that you can imagine.

00:57:37.780 You bring

00:57:38.360 a wonderful idea,

00:57:39.720 Hegel's reaction

00:57:40.460 is always

00:57:41.100 yes,

00:57:41.940 and I will show you

00:57:42.820 why it has to go wrong.

00:57:44.660 So did you ever

00:57:45.420 study the philosophy

00:57:46.180 of cynicism?

00:57:47.060 Like,

00:57:47.300 you know,

00:57:47.780 the idea,

00:57:48.760 you know,

00:57:49.000 it's very similar

00:57:49.620 to pessimism,

00:57:50.460 pessimist.

00:57:51.960 Yeah,

00:57:52.500 but with cynicism,

00:57:54.840 the reason

00:57:55.340 I'm skeptical

00:57:56.120 towards cynicism

00:57:57.120 is because of my

00:57:58.060 socialist past,

00:57:59.320 communist,

00:57:59.780 whatever you call it.

00:58:00.800 No?

00:58:01.220 Cynicism

00:58:01.700 was nothing

00:58:03.100 subversive.

00:58:04.320 This was

00:58:04.740 part of how

00:58:06.160 the Communist Party

00:58:07.480 elite perceived

00:58:08.460 itself.

00:58:09.340 They didn't really

00:58:10.060 believe it.

00:58:10.780 Privately,

00:58:11.220 they mocked

00:58:11.960 their own ideas

00:58:13.020 and so on

00:58:13.640 and so on.

00:58:14.580 Communist regime

00:58:15.400 was,

00:58:16.300 maybe in Stalinism

00:58:17.560 you still had

00:58:18.320 some fanatics,

00:58:19.200 but for example,

00:58:19.940 the last two decades

00:58:20.800 of Soviet Union,

00:58:21.860 Brezhnev and so on.

00:58:23.500 It was a pure

00:58:24.460 reign of cynicism

00:58:25.720 and even today,

00:58:27.220 you know my joke,

00:58:28.160 you must have heard it,

00:58:29.100 which I all the time

00:58:30.240 repeat.

00:58:31.940 This is the greatest

00:58:32.900 cynical joke.

00:58:34.480 Anecdote,

00:58:35.100 I'm sorry,

00:58:35.700 even some of

00:58:36.880 viewers,

00:58:38.020 listeners now know it,

00:58:39.000 a joke about

00:58:40.280 Niels Bohr

00:58:42.200 who,

00:58:43.560 at the entrance

00:58:44.240 of his

00:58:44.900 dacha

00:58:46.520 wooden house

00:58:47.520 in the summer

00:58:48.120 of Copenhagen,

00:58:49.000 had a horseshoe.

00:58:50.000 You know,

00:58:51.040 in Europe

00:58:51.400 this is a

00:58:52.040 superstitious item.

00:58:53.340 If you have a

00:58:53.960 horseshoe over

00:58:54.740 the entrance,

00:58:55.780 evil spirits

00:58:56.380 will not enter

00:58:57.120 the house.

00:58:58.200 And a friend

00:58:58.820 tells him,

00:58:59.700 but you are a scientist,

00:59:00.620 you don't believe in this,

00:59:01.620 why do you have

00:59:02.240 this debt?

00:59:02.780 You know what,

00:59:03.380 there's more answers.

00:59:04.640 I don't believe it,

00:59:06.020 but I was told that

00:59:07.040 even if you don't

00:59:07.820 believe it,

00:59:08.320 it works.

00:59:09.120 That's why I have it.

00:59:10.800 This is cynicism.

00:59:12.740 Cynicism,

00:59:13.300 there is nothing

00:59:13.780 subversive in cynicism.

00:59:15.400 We live in

00:59:16.020 cynical era.

00:59:17.740 Next,

00:59:18.660 Ayn Rand,

00:59:19.280 one word.

00:59:20.320 Interesting,

00:59:21.140 ambiguous,

00:59:21.980 every leftist

00:59:22.840 should read her.

00:59:23.920 And I still

00:59:24.640 think that

00:59:25.700 there is a

00:59:27.260 moment which is

00:59:28.180 authentic,

00:59:29.000 who is the

00:59:29.740 Gary Cooper guy?

00:59:30.980 I refer to the movie

00:59:32.060 in Fountainhead,

00:59:33.520 Howard Rourke,

00:59:34.660 or who,

00:59:35.120 the architect.

00:59:36.060 Yes.

00:59:36.460 Remember that

00:59:37.180 at the end

00:59:37.900 when he gives

00:59:38.820 his speech,

00:59:40.660 Ayn Rand has

00:59:41.280 a wonderful

00:59:41.880 description

00:59:42.580 where he says

00:59:43.920 even if they

00:59:44.960 hated them,

00:59:46.260 but for a

00:59:47.240 brief moment

00:59:48.240 they all

00:59:49.140 felt free.

00:59:50.420 I would like

00:59:51.680 to live in

00:59:52.300 Howard Rourke

00:59:53.220 communism,

00:59:54.140 in communism

00:59:54.820 where there is

00:59:55.620 a space

00:59:56.400 for such

00:59:57.520 fully

00:59:58.220 autonomous

00:59:59.000 individuals.

01:00:01.760 So I

01:00:02.160 don't think

01:00:03.440 Ayn Rand

01:00:05.300 should be

01:00:06.040 simply

01:00:06.920 dismissed

01:00:07.740 as crazy,

01:00:09.420 nuts,

01:00:10.060 right-wing,

01:00:10.740 proto-fascist,

01:00:11.520 and so on

01:00:11.980 and so on.

01:00:12.460 She is a

01:00:13.040 much more

01:00:13.540 ambiguous,

01:00:14.440 interesting person.

01:00:16.160 Did you

01:00:16.620 see,

01:00:17.140 did you

01:00:17.520 incidentally

01:00:18.380 read,

01:00:19.620 and to

01:00:19.960 all my

01:00:20.320 viewers,

01:00:20.940 his,

01:00:21.420 I think,

01:00:21.760 first English

01:00:22.620 novel,

01:00:23.640 We the

01:00:24.260 Living.

01:00:25.260 No.

01:00:25.820 It's a

01:00:26.560 novel which

01:00:27.040 takes place

01:00:27.860 in Soviet

01:00:29.080 Union in

01:00:29.760 early 20s

01:00:30.800 where,

01:00:31.960 you know

01:00:32.300 who turns

01:00:32.980 its beautiful

01:00:35.180 lady,

01:00:36.380 torn between

01:00:37.200 an old

01:00:37.960 corrupted

01:00:38.580 nobleman

01:00:39.500 who is a

01:00:40.060 little bit

01:00:40.420 terrorized by

01:00:41.080 communism,

01:00:41.520 and a

01:00:42.180 KGB guy

01:00:43.000 who also

01:00:43.760 studies

01:00:44.240 together with

01:00:45.040 her.

01:00:45.740 At the

01:00:46.100 end,

01:00:46.740 the guy,

01:00:47.360 the corrupted

01:00:47.940 rich guy

01:00:48.880 simply gets

01:00:50.920 coopted by

01:00:51.680 the new

01:00:52.120 Bolshevik

01:00:52.660 ruling

01:00:53.080 elite,

01:00:53.880 and the

01:00:54.420 honest

01:00:54.860 communist

01:00:55.520 kills

01:00:56.100 himself.

01:00:56.820 He's the

01:00:57.240 honest guy.

01:00:58.180 It's much

01:00:58.640 more ambiguous,

01:00:59.560 very interesting.

01:01:00.920 It should be

01:01:01.900 taken seriously.

01:01:03.560 Trump.

01:01:04.680 I made,

01:01:05.740 now I have

01:01:06.560 to admit,

01:01:07.780 you know,

01:01:08.100 when I said

01:01:09.260 better Trump

01:01:10.040 than Clinton,

01:01:10.680 you know,

01:01:11.520 my wage

01:01:12.040 was a very

01:01:12.860 brutal

01:01:13.420 Leninist.

01:01:14.900 With Trump,

01:01:16.220 there will be

01:01:16.980 socialist reaction,

01:01:18.380 Bernie Sanders,

01:01:19.280 and so on.

01:01:20.520 I was maybe

01:01:21.740 right there,

01:01:23.520 but now with

01:01:24.320 coronavirus,

01:01:26.160 no,

01:01:26.800 no Trump.

01:01:28.380 the only thing

01:01:29.200 that gives me

01:01:29.920 some hope

01:01:30.660 is that

01:01:31.420 it seems

01:01:32.920 to be,

01:01:33.340 don't you

01:01:33.620 have this

01:01:33.940 impression,

01:01:34.860 that other

01:01:35.480 people about

01:01:36.620 Trump in

01:01:37.240 administration

01:01:38.040 nonetheless

01:01:39.080 pursue a

01:01:40.540 more rational

01:01:41.400 politics,

01:01:42.560 and I'm

01:01:43.280 not quite

01:01:43.740 sure,

01:01:44.560 but that up

01:01:45.200 to a point,

01:01:46.300 Trump is

01:01:47.040 getting

01:01:47.680 irrelevant,

01:01:49.120 up to a

01:01:49.700 point.

01:01:50.340 Like,

01:01:50.600 I know you

01:01:51.280 have this

01:01:51.720 move against

01:01:53.200 the lockdown,

01:01:54.300 and so on,

01:01:54.800 and so on,

01:01:55.880 but nonetheless,

01:01:57.500 I think that

01:01:58.280 difficult as

01:01:59.320 it is for me

01:02:00.720 to say this,

01:02:01.560 but now I

01:02:02.200 would say

01:02:02.720 Biden better

01:02:03.880 than Trump,

01:02:04.960 although he's

01:02:05.640 far from

01:02:07.700 ideal,

01:02:08.540 far from

01:02:09.080 ideal,

01:02:09.680 but you know,

01:02:10.420 now we don't

01:02:11.360 have time to

01:02:12.020 dream about

01:02:12.620 this.

01:02:13.160 Now,

01:02:13.660 I think,

01:02:14.520 again,

01:02:14.920 our whole

01:02:16.040 way of life

01:02:17.160 is changing,

01:02:18.560 and it's

01:02:18.920 important to

01:02:19.960 have what

01:02:20.840 I call,

01:02:21.440 and I hope

01:02:21.880 you will agree

01:02:22.580 with this,

01:02:23.940 principle

01:02:24.560 pragmatics.

01:02:26.200 People who

01:02:26.920 are principled

01:02:27.760 follow certain

01:02:28.880 ideas,

01:02:30.000 decent life,

01:02:30.940 freedom,

01:02:31.620 at the same

01:02:32.180 time in a

01:02:32.840 very pragmatic

01:02:33.600 sense,

01:02:34.220 like what can

01:02:35.060 we really do,

01:02:36.040 and so on,

01:02:37.200 and so on.

01:02:38.080 There will be

01:02:38.760 more of this

01:02:40.000 with Biden,

01:02:41.180 but let's

01:02:41.880 hope that he

01:02:42.520 will be able

01:02:43.640 to do what

01:02:44.460 friends who

01:02:45.420 are absolutely

01:02:46.120 anti-Ronald

01:02:46.980 Reagan told

01:02:48.180 me that

01:02:48.640 Ronald Reagan

01:02:49.480 had one

01:02:51.060 talent,

01:02:51.560 you have to

01:02:52.000 admit it.

01:02:53.120 He knew

01:02:53.720 how to

01:02:54.180 select

01:02:54.560 the right

01:02:54.980 people

01:02:55.360 to do,

01:02:57.180 in Stalinist

01:02:58.200 sense,

01:02:58.720 good

01:02:58.960 Kadrovic,

01:02:59.840 to nominate

01:03:01.200 the proper

01:03:02.220 people.

01:03:03.200 Who's your

01:03:03.960 favorite U.S.

01:03:04.560 president of all

01:03:05.200 time?

01:03:05.540 Who's your

01:03:05.820 favorite

01:03:06.040 president,

01:03:06.660 favorite?

01:03:06.940 I think

01:03:08.220 that, and

01:03:09.040 it makes me

01:03:09.740 very sad,

01:03:11.100 I think

01:03:11.740 that precisely

01:03:13.240 because he

01:03:14.500 was considered

01:03:15.340 a failure,

01:03:16.420 you know,

01:03:17.560 that it was

01:03:18.180 a great

01:03:19.080 misfortune for

01:03:20.680 Carter that

01:03:21.640 he wasn't

01:03:23.200 able to do

01:03:24.200 more.

01:03:24.780 Of course,

01:03:25.200 his presidency

01:03:25.840 was a failure,

01:03:27.380 but obviously

01:03:28.340 he was a

01:03:29.220 relatively decent

01:03:30.340 guy,

01:03:31.280 100%,

01:03:32.940 so...

01:03:34.140 Good guy.

01:03:35.300 Good guy.

01:03:36.380 Okay, you

01:03:37.120 can be now

01:03:37.820 utter sinning

01:03:38.800 and say

01:03:39.380 that what

01:03:40.620 this story

01:03:41.220 proves is

01:03:42.020 that we

01:03:42.720 don't need

01:03:43.260 good guys

01:03:44.020 on top of

01:03:45.140 the power.

01:03:45.740 Yes.

01:03:46.200 I think

01:03:46.880 don't

01:03:47.400 underestimate

01:03:48.200 him.

01:03:49.060 All those

01:03:49.620 Helsinki

01:03:50.320 agreements

01:03:50.940 and all

01:03:51.680 that stuff,

01:03:52.660 I think

01:03:53.080 that Carter

01:03:54.120 did quite

01:03:55.520 a lot

01:03:56.100 in the

01:03:56.640 long term

01:03:57.400 to undermine

01:03:58.480 Soviet

01:03:59.740 communism.

01:04:00.320 you know,

01:04:01.060 don't

01:04:01.560 underestimate

01:04:02.300 him there.

01:04:03.520 Sometimes

01:04:04.040 soft

01:04:04.680 anti-communism,

01:04:05.940 you know,

01:04:06.500 you conclude

01:04:07.000 agreements,

01:04:07.840 but they

01:04:08.220 undermine...

01:04:09.820 Don't,

01:04:10.260 don't...

01:04:10.840 He was

01:04:11.200 not pushed

01:04:11.700 over.

01:04:11.980 Carter is

01:04:12.540 a complex

01:04:13.860 guy.

01:04:14.560 Others...

01:04:15.300 Ah!

01:04:16.140 Another

01:04:16.520 surprise.

01:04:17.600 I'm not

01:04:18.080 so much

01:04:18.580 opposed to

01:04:19.420 Richard Nixon.

01:04:20.760 I think

01:04:21.140 he...

01:04:22.160 Some leftists

01:04:23.180 told me,

01:04:23.960 if you

01:04:24.440 measure

01:04:25.160 left,

01:04:26.060 socialist

01:04:26.520 left,

01:04:26.980 with how

01:04:27.840 many,

01:04:28.460 I don't

01:04:29.400 know,

01:04:29.720 for the

01:04:31.300 unemployed

01:04:31.980 students,

01:04:32.980 healthcare,

01:04:33.500 and so

01:04:33.800 on,

01:04:34.500 you know

01:04:34.840 that under

01:04:35.620 Nixon,

01:04:36.700 this healthcare

01:04:37.780 social thing,

01:04:38.760 this was the

01:04:39.380 high point.

01:04:40.080 Then already

01:04:40.580 Carter,

01:04:41.120 because of

01:04:41.500 economic crisis,

01:04:42.520 had to

01:04:42.920 reduce them,

01:04:43.940 and so on.

01:04:44.840 And then he

01:04:45.680 concluded peace

01:04:46.840 with China,

01:04:48.880 and so on,

01:04:50.100 and so on.

01:04:50.980 I think

01:04:51.480 Nixon,

01:04:51.900 I never

01:04:52.480 believed that

01:04:53.360 Watergate

01:04:54.260 story,

01:04:54.920 you know,

01:04:55.640 too honest

01:04:56.580 journalists

01:04:57.680 can overthrow

01:04:58.540 the most

01:04:59.160 powerful

01:04:59.640 person

01:05:00.260 in the

01:05:00.740 world,

01:05:01.180 you know.

01:05:01.940 No,

01:05:02.520 Nixon is

01:05:03.120 again,

01:05:04.000 a much more

01:05:04.720 ambiguous guy.

01:05:06.100 I mean,

01:05:06.400 I'm not saying

01:05:06.920 he's a

01:05:07.440 sympathetic guy.

01:05:08.500 No,

01:05:08.660 no,

01:05:08.820 no,

01:05:08.940 I get it.

01:05:09.500 Believe me,

01:05:09.860 the two people

01:05:10.640 you chose

01:05:11.380 were two people

01:05:12.580 I thought

01:05:13.240 you would have

01:05:13.620 chosen.

01:05:14.560 Really?

01:05:15.400 Yeah,

01:05:15.620 I thought you

01:05:15.980 would have

01:05:16.120 chosen.

01:05:16.140 Then if I

01:05:16.680 may put it

01:05:17.200 like this,

01:05:17.700 but don't

01:05:17.960 take it

01:05:18.280 personally,

01:05:18.980 you are not

01:05:19.440 complete idiot

01:05:20.120 then.

01:05:21.060 Let me tell you

01:05:21.920 something.

01:05:23.120 No,

01:05:23.380 in my view,

01:05:24.840 there are only

01:05:25.640 two types of

01:05:26.540 people,

01:05:27.220 complete idiots

01:05:28.100 and not

01:05:28.700 complete.

01:05:30.160 This is the

01:05:31.080 most you can

01:05:31.660 get.

01:05:31.880 And I'll take

01:05:32.360 that as a

01:05:32.780 compliment.

01:05:33.260 I'm not a

01:05:33.740 compliment.

01:05:34.020 Thank you.

01:05:35.460 How about

01:05:35.880 Jesus Christ?

01:05:36.980 My God,

01:05:37.400 crazy.

01:05:38.240 I wrote

01:05:39.980 three books

01:05:41.300 celebrating what

01:05:42.420 I call my

01:05:43.020 eight-aged

01:05:43.560 Christianity.

01:05:44.460 You know

01:05:44.760 what happens

01:05:45.400 on the

01:05:45.860 cross?

01:05:47.120 I've written

01:05:47.780 books which

01:05:49.020 even found

01:05:49.680 some echo

01:05:50.300 I learned

01:05:50.800 in Vatican.

01:05:52.740 What dies

01:05:53.380 on the cross

01:05:54.060 is not God's

01:05:54.880 representative,

01:05:55.940 it's God

01:05:57.080 himself.

01:05:57.900 You know,

01:05:58.080 crucial moment

01:05:58.980 of Christianity

01:05:59.720 is that

01:06:00.540 Eli Eli

01:06:01.280 Lama

01:06:01.600 Sabachthani.

01:06:02.880 Father,

01:06:04.180 why have

01:06:05.400 you forsaken

01:06:06.340 me?

01:06:07.000 At that

01:06:07.440 point,

01:06:08.000 as my

01:06:08.360 favorite

01:06:09.080 Catholic

01:06:10.140 theologist

01:06:10.780 Gilbert

01:06:11.380 Keith

01:06:11.680 Chesterton

01:06:12.320 wrote,

01:06:12.740 at that

01:06:13.600 point,

01:06:14.660 God

01:06:14.900 himself,

01:06:16.080 Christ on

01:06:16.680 the cross

01:06:17.180 doesn't

01:06:18.140 believe,

01:06:18.860 becomes a

01:06:19.460 non-believer.

01:06:20.940 So,

01:06:21.640 the way I

01:06:22.380 read it is

01:06:23.140 you have

01:06:23.580 father,

01:06:24.640 you have

01:06:24.960 son,

01:06:25.780 and what

01:06:26.180 comes then?

01:06:27.060 Holy Spirit,

01:06:28.120 which is

01:06:28.540 communist party,

01:06:29.840 which is the

01:06:30.400 group,

01:06:30.800 egalitarian

01:06:31.460 group of

01:06:32.260 believers.

01:06:33.140 That's the

01:06:33.480 message of

01:06:34.040 Christianity.

01:06:35.080 As the

01:06:35.640 great

01:06:35.940 conservative

01:06:36.640 French

01:06:37.560 Catholic

01:06:38.360 writer,

01:06:39.120 Paul Claudel

01:06:39.900 wrote,

01:06:40.460 the secret

01:06:41.440 message of

01:06:42.040 Christianity

01:06:42.560 is not

01:06:43.220 we are

01:06:43.560 helpless

01:06:43.960 without

01:06:44.400 God,

01:06:45.260 but that

01:06:45.680 God is

01:06:46.220 helpless

01:06:46.620 without

01:06:47.040 us.

01:06:48.000 It all

01:06:48.280 depends

01:06:48.740 on us.

01:06:50.100 The

01:06:50.480 message of

01:06:52.180 Christianity

01:06:52.780 is I

01:06:53.940 give you,

01:06:54.720 I die,

01:06:55.580 and I

01:06:55.840 give you

01:06:56.280 the space

01:06:57.060 of freedom.

01:06:57.840 It's the

01:06:58.340 greatest

01:06:58.640 ethical

01:06:59.180 revolution.

01:07:00.840 I'm an

01:07:00.980 atheist

01:07:01.360 Christian.

01:07:02.240 Gorbachev.

01:07:03.640 Okay,

01:07:04.240 positive role

01:07:05.160 and so on,

01:07:06.340 but still

01:07:06.960 something

01:07:07.960 disturbs me

01:07:09.320 like,

01:07:09.940 did

01:07:10.160 he,

01:07:10.880 how could

01:07:11.460 he have

01:07:11.980 been so

01:07:12.720 naive?

01:07:13.900 Did he

01:07:14.380 really

01:07:15.040 believe that

01:07:16.260 that type

01:07:17.420 of reform

01:07:18.460 perestroika

01:07:19.300 would work?

01:07:20.300 The system

01:07:21.020 was too

01:07:21.900 clumsy.

01:07:22.620 You couldn't

01:07:23.060 do this

01:07:23.480 with Soviet

01:07:23.980 history.

01:07:24.400 That's the

01:07:24.840 deepest

01:07:25.140 message if

01:07:26.000 you read

01:07:26.420 Soviet

01:07:27.140 history.

01:07:28.480 You know,

01:07:29.240 people usually

01:07:29.900 say everything

01:07:30.780 was planned

01:07:31.540 there, you

01:07:32.000 didn't have

01:07:32.520 any freedom.

01:07:33.580 No,

01:07:34.260 everything was

01:07:34.960 planned at

01:07:35.620 control at

01:07:36.420 a superficial

01:07:37.080 level.

01:07:38.140 One level

01:07:39.020 beneath,

01:07:39.520 it was

01:07:39.960 extremely

01:07:40.540 chaotic,

01:07:41.300 nothing

01:07:41.540 functioned.

01:07:42.340 And that's

01:07:42.820 one reason

01:07:43.800 for open

01:07:44.500 democratic

01:07:45.100 societies,

01:07:46.560 that they

01:07:47.000 are usually

01:07:47.680 very well

01:07:48.340 organized,

01:07:49.160 you know.

01:07:49.780 Communism,

01:07:50.460 the problem

01:07:50.820 with communism

01:07:51.320 was not

01:07:51.780 too much

01:07:52.380 party control.

01:07:53.380 The

01:07:53.580 discontrol

01:07:54.220 was a

01:07:54.620 fake.

01:07:55.120 At a local

01:07:55.620 level there

01:07:56.120 was corruption,

01:07:57.180 you had to

01:07:57.660 break the

01:07:58.120 rules.

01:07:58.800 And what

01:07:59.680 I don't

01:08:00.760 see,

01:08:01.720 cannot

01:08:02.180 understand,

01:08:03.360 once I

01:08:03.800 almost met

01:08:04.500 him when he

01:08:05.120 no longer

01:08:05.520 was president.

01:08:06.420 I don't

01:08:06.680 plan to

01:08:07.100 ask him,

01:08:07.640 Gorbachev is,

01:08:09.080 did he really

01:08:09.840 believe it,

01:08:10.700 that he will

01:08:11.260 do this

01:08:12.020 perestroika,

01:08:12.960 open system,

01:08:14.040 a little bit,

01:08:14.780 and so on,

01:08:15.160 and so on.

01:08:16.080 It was to

01:08:16.600 all of us

01:08:17.180 so obvious

01:08:18.300 that it

01:08:19.340 didn't work,

01:08:21.680 that it

01:08:22.020 couldn't work.

01:08:22.960 Interesting.

01:08:23.540 Okay,

01:08:24.360 Lenin and

01:08:25.260 Stalin,

01:08:25.800 one word for

01:08:26.420 each.

01:08:27.160 What I

01:08:27.860 appreciate in

01:08:29.460 Lenin,

01:08:30.500 he was very

01:08:31.340 ruthless,

01:08:32.220 and so on,

01:08:32.840 I admit all

01:08:33.580 that.

01:08:34.300 But his,

01:08:35.080 again,

01:08:35.820 immense

01:08:36.400 pragmatism,

01:08:37.760 how quickly

01:08:38.580 he totally

01:08:39.260 changed his

01:08:40.080 position.

01:08:40.920 He was an

01:08:41.500 opportunist in

01:08:42.500 a good sense,

01:08:43.380 you know,

01:08:43.920 this has to

01:08:44.500 be done,

01:08:45.260 he did it,

01:08:46.180 and so on,

01:08:46.740 and so on.

01:08:47.540 But it is

01:08:48.400 clear that

01:08:49.540 at the end,

01:08:50.960 in the last

01:08:51.580 two years

01:08:53.980 of his life,

01:08:55.560 if you read

01:08:56.160 his last

01:08:56.820 messages

01:08:57.500 dictated,

01:08:58.940 he lived

01:09:00.900 a terrifying

01:09:01.900 life.

01:09:02.600 He saw

01:09:03.000 that the

01:09:03.400 game is

01:09:03.820 lost,

01:09:04.460 you know,

01:09:05.320 and you

01:09:05.620 know,

01:09:05.840 his last

01:09:06.380 attempt to

01:09:07.320 overthrow

01:09:08.020 Stalin,

01:09:08.720 and so on,

01:09:09.160 and so on.

01:09:10.340 Concerning

01:09:10.860 Stalin,

01:09:11.900 yes,

01:09:12.580 a nightmare,

01:09:13.620 catastrophe,

01:09:14.360 whatever you

01:09:14.920 want,

01:09:15.580 but don't

01:09:16.360 dismiss him

01:09:17.200 as an idiot. 0.92

01:09:18.100 I don't

01:09:18.520 think anybody

01:09:19.140 does.

01:09:20.020 Yeah,

01:09:20.380 yeah,

01:09:20.760 he said,

01:09:22.520 for example,

01:09:24.520 you know,

01:09:24.880 he knew how

01:09:25.760 to play the

01:09:26.620 game,

01:09:27.000 you know,

01:09:27.220 which was the

01:09:27.680 crucial year

01:09:28.420 in Soviet

01:09:28.960 history,

01:09:29.760 23,

01:09:30.740 when Lenin

01:09:31.520 was ill,

01:09:32.340 out,

01:09:33.400 and it

01:09:34.360 was the

01:09:34.700 struggle

01:09:35.060 Trotsky-Stalin,

01:09:36.500 and Trotsky

01:09:37.300 approached it

01:09:38.560 in an arrogant

01:09:39.400 way,

01:09:40.200 writing books

01:09:41.080 about literature

01:09:42.280 and so on,

01:09:43.440 trusting his

01:09:44.180 fame.

01:09:45.020 You know what

01:09:45.660 Stalin did 0.94

01:09:46.380 in 23?

01:09:47.700 He nominated

01:09:48.600 over 100,000

01:09:50.440 cadre,

01:09:51.220 people at

01:09:51.820 minor position

01:09:52.660 here and there,

01:09:53.680 and Trotsky

01:09:54.300 even didn't

01:09:55.100 know it,

01:09:55.820 but noticed,

01:09:57.000 but the game

01:09:57.860 was lost

01:09:58.420 at the end

01:09:59.000 of 23.

01:09:59.960 The entire

01:10:00.620 party apparatus

01:10:01.700 was controlled

01:10:02.760 by Stalin.

01:10:03.920 If I may

01:10:04.340 conclude another

01:10:05.660 metaphor that I

01:10:06.480 always use from

01:10:07.420 comics,

01:10:08.320 you know,

01:10:08.660 that wonderful

01:10:09.220 moment in Tom

01:10:10.120 and Gary

01:10:10.500 where a cat

01:10:11.100 walks above

01:10:11.860 the precipice,

01:10:13.020 nothing beneath

01:10:13.840 its legs,

01:10:15.340 and only when

01:10:16.160 it looks down

01:10:17.080 and notices

01:10:18.040 there is nothing,

01:10:18.960 it falls down,

01:10:20.080 you know.

01:10:21.080 That was Trotsky's 0.54

01:10:22.140 position in 24,

01:10:23.480 25,

01:10:24.800 he thought he

01:10:26.000 didn't notice

01:10:27.200 that he is

01:10:27.920 already walking

01:10:30.060 on empty air,

01:10:33.200 that at any

01:10:33.680 moment he will

01:10:34.920 fall down.

01:10:36.300 I don't think

01:10:37.280 Trotskyism was

01:10:39.140 a serious

01:10:40.180 alternative.

01:10:42.040 Maybe what

01:10:42.960 could have

01:10:43.640 provided,

01:10:44.840 what could

01:10:45.640 provide a

01:10:46.640 more,

01:10:47.200 a little bit

01:10:47.900 softer version

01:10:48.900 would have been

01:10:49.880 a pact between

01:10:50.840 Nikolai Bukharin,

01:10:52.500 who was more

01:10:53.480 pro-market,

01:10:54.240 Bolshevik,

01:10:54.860 and Rikov,

01:10:56.160 who was the

01:10:56.700 prime minister.

01:10:57.900 They were both,

01:10:58.560 of course,

01:10:58.860 then liquidated

01:10:59.700 by Stalin,

01:11:00.540 no,

01:11:01.080 if that

01:11:01.720 function were

01:11:02.880 to win,

01:11:04.700 I'm not saying

01:11:05.340 it would be a

01:11:06.000 flourishing democracy

01:11:07.120 in our sense,

01:11:08.160 but maybe

01:11:08.940 something different.

01:11:11.020 Maybe,

01:11:11.420 I'm very skeptical.

01:11:12.840 Adam Smith.

01:11:13.900 I know it's

01:11:14.740 popular to

01:11:15.800 redeem him

01:11:16.920 today that

01:11:17.580 he's not

01:11:18.100 today's capitalism

01:11:19.160 and other vision

01:11:20.100 and so on

01:11:20.820 and so on,

01:11:21.720 and I think,

01:11:22.840 yes,

01:11:23.480 there is much

01:11:24.260 more to be

01:11:25.100 found there

01:11:26.080 in Adam Smith

01:11:27.340 and what people

01:11:29.160 also often forget

01:11:30.640 is that Adam Smith

01:11:31.940 is part of that

01:11:33.300 Scottish ethical

01:11:34.840 thought and so on.

01:11:36.100 He's not just

01:11:36.720 an economist,

01:11:37.660 he's also a

01:11:38.700 theorist of ethics

01:11:40.120 and so on

01:11:40.800 and so on.

01:11:41.540 I don't think that

01:11:42.400 any return to him

01:11:43.960 is productive

01:11:44.840 today in the sense

01:11:46.040 of that we should

01:11:47.380 counter today's

01:11:48.540 vulgar,

01:11:49.600 too brutal,

01:11:50.240 monopolizing capitalism

01:11:51.540 with the return

01:11:52.360 to Adam Smith.

01:11:53.780 I don't,

01:11:54.220 I don't believe

01:11:55.020 that.

01:11:55.420 Hitler. 0.57

01:11:56.580 You know,

01:11:57.160 one thing

01:11:58.240 which fascinates

01:11:59.900 me,

01:12:00.220 we were talking

01:12:00.700 about cynicism.

01:12:02.440 I read,

01:12:03.260 it's a very

01:12:03.660 boring book,

01:12:04.640 I read Mein Kampf

01:12:05.720 because one question

01:12:07.600 only interested me.

01:12:09.740 Did Hitler 0.80

01:12:10.540 believe or not

01:12:12.040 in his own

01:12:13.180 theory,

01:12:14.720 in his own

01:12:15.540 anti-

01:12:15.860 and you know

01:12:16.540 what's the conclusion

01:12:17.540 that I came,

01:12:18.360 it's very disturbing,

01:12:20.060 it's a very disturbing

01:12:21.280 conclusion.

01:12:22.660 At the same time,

01:12:24.140 he did and he didn't.

01:12:25.740 Obviously,

01:12:26.320 he was cheating.

01:12:27.660 He even says

01:12:28.420 directly,

01:12:29.280 repeat a lie

01:12:30.000 often enough,

01:12:31.020 blah, blah, blah,

01:12:31.580 blah,

01:12:31.680 but then you can

01:12:33.260 see how he

01:12:34.360 gets caught

01:12:35.200 into his own

01:12:36.240 lie and

01:12:37.040 starts to

01:12:38.200 believe it.

01:12:39.240 It's a

01:12:39.820 very interesting

01:12:41.140 formula of how

01:12:42.300 you can

01:12:43.220 know that

01:12:44.240 you are cheating

01:12:44.920 but nonetheless

01:12:45.780 believe it.

01:12:47.180 So this is what

01:12:48.280 fascinates me.

01:12:49.320 Otherwise,

01:12:49.980 I think that

01:12:50.860 the really evil

01:12:52.000 guy for me,

01:12:52.920 if you ask me,

01:12:53.660 and you probably

01:12:54.200 know him,

01:12:54.880 you read about him,

01:12:55.760 is Albert Speer,

01:12:57.120 the good guy

01:12:57.920 who apologized.

01:13:00.180 But you know

01:13:00.740 that he is

01:13:01.700 personally responsible

01:13:02.860 for the war

01:13:03.740 dragging so long.

01:13:05.160 One very good

01:13:05.900 decision by Hitler 0.69

01:13:06.860 was,

01:13:07.540 was it early,

01:13:08.520 43 or even

01:13:09.400 a little earlier,

01:13:10.340 when he named

01:13:11.260 Albert Speer

01:13:12.440 armament minister.

01:13:15.220 And the production

01:13:16.060 went out,

01:13:16.780 skyrocketed,

01:13:18.440 Germany

01:13:18.860 produced even

01:13:22.200 more arms

01:13:22.920 until the

01:13:23.420 fall of

01:13:24.380 44.

01:13:25.860 Without

01:13:26.580 Albert Speer,

01:13:28.340 the war

01:13:28.880 would have

01:13:29.460 ended

01:13:30.240 definitely

01:13:31.500 summer

01:13:32.000 44.

01:13:33.560 He is the

01:13:34.720 truly evil

01:13:35.800 guy,

01:13:36.160 evil guy,

01:13:36.920 in the sense

01:13:37.480 of millions

01:13:38.820 of people

01:13:40.020 would have

01:13:41.260 died,

01:13:42.320 less,

01:13:42.780 would not have

01:13:43.560 died without

01:13:44.420 Albert Speer.

01:13:45.200 two more

01:13:46.080 left.

01:13:47.140 I'll give you

01:13:47.820 the first one

01:13:48.380 and then the

01:13:48.720 last one.

01:13:49.240 Nietzsche.

01:13:50.160 I'm not so

01:13:50.620 fascinated by

01:13:51.420 Nietzsche.

01:13:51.940 I know it's

01:13:52.460 very fashionable

01:13:53.040 to be for

01:13:53.720 him and so

01:13:54.360 on.

01:13:55.160 I think that

01:13:56.380 even at the

01:13:57.820 level of style,

01:13:58.720 did you read

01:13:59.180 Zarathustra and

01:14:00.140 so on?

01:14:01.000 No.

01:14:01.520 It's something

01:14:02.340 so rhetorically

01:14:03.540 bombastic,

01:14:04.540 pathetic,

01:14:05.340 and so on.

01:14:06.280 And also because

01:14:07.000 in opera,

01:14:07.660 I love

01:14:08.000 Richard Wagner

01:14:08.760 and Nietzsche

01:14:09.740 turned ferociously

01:14:12.020 against Wagner.

01:14:13.520 So no,

01:14:14.460 Nietzsche,

01:14:15.380 although I

01:14:16.060 know there

01:14:16.640 are many

01:14:16.940 of my

01:14:17.240 friends who

01:14:17.800 try to do

01:14:18.780 another reading

01:14:19.660 of Nietzsche,

01:14:20.300 but I

01:14:20.900 simply don't

01:14:21.660 relate to

01:14:23.100 Nietzsche.

01:14:23.780 And the

01:14:24.060 last one,

01:14:25.400 Putin.

01:14:26.400 I can see

01:14:27.680 that's the

01:14:28.240 true tragedy

01:14:29.000 of how

01:14:30.360 Yelchin

01:14:31.380 laid the

01:14:32.280 foundation for

01:14:33.320 Putin.

01:14:33.880 The true

01:14:34.240 catastrophe

01:14:34.840 were the

01:14:35.380 90s,

01:14:35.980 I think.

01:14:36.880 Total

01:14:37.160 economic

01:14:37.740 fiasco,

01:14:38.720 chaos,

01:14:39.580 corruption,

01:14:40.560 and so

01:14:40.880 on and

01:14:41.200 so on.

01:14:42.460 But in

01:14:43.440 the long

01:14:44.120 term,

01:14:44.760 I wonder

01:14:45.160 how Putin

01:14:45.820 will survive

01:14:46.620 his predicament

01:14:47.960 now.

01:14:49.600 You know

01:14:49.860 what's the

01:14:50.240 problem?

01:14:51.220 I don't,

01:14:52.360 okay,

01:14:52.740 they have

01:14:53.160 oil industry,

01:14:54.220 natural

01:14:54.640 resources,

01:14:56.020 and they

01:14:56.300 have armament

01:14:57.120 industry.

01:14:57.980 And that's

01:14:58.380 basically all

01:14:59.580 they have.

01:15:00.360 They are

01:15:00.660 not as

01:15:01.220 genuinely

01:15:02.200 successful

01:15:03.020 as China

01:15:03.880 economically.

01:15:05.720 So I

01:15:06.200 think that

01:15:06.760 I can

01:15:07.660 well

01:15:07.960 imagine,

01:15:09.320 I cannot

01:15:10.400 imagine

01:15:11.140 China doing 0.98

01:15:13.580 better without

01:15:14.780 Deng Xiaoping.

01:15:16.640 He was a

01:15:17.620 genius in

01:15:18.280 some sense.

01:15:19.500 But I

01:15:20.340 can imagine

01:15:21.160 Russia doing 0.83

01:15:22.640 better without

01:15:23.500 Putin.

01:15:24.000 You think

01:15:24.400 so?

01:15:25.500 Yeah.

01:15:26.620 Yeah.

01:15:27.480 Based on

01:15:28.020 what premise?

01:15:28.700 Based on

01:15:29.320 what premise?

01:15:30.180 I'm not

01:15:30.820 saying some

01:15:32.200 naive liberal

01:15:33.380 democracy and

01:15:34.380 so on,

01:15:34.780 but the

01:15:35.340 more

01:15:35.520 intelligent

01:15:36.320 Chinese

01:15:37.120 style

01:15:37.820 capitalism

01:15:38.960 controlled by

01:15:39.860 states.

01:15:40.120 You're a big

01:15:40.540 China fan.

01:15:41.160 It's interesting.

01:15:41.760 Maybe we can

01:15:42.220 talk about it.

01:15:42.380 No, I'm not.

01:15:43.140 I'm horrified.

01:15:44.760 You know,

01:15:45.260 if for no

01:15:46.160 other reasons

01:15:47.120 for my

01:15:47.760 personal

01:15:48.320 interest,

01:15:52.220 they,

01:15:52.600 okay,

01:15:53.280 they translate

01:15:53.860 my books,

01:15:54.580 some of them,

01:15:55.340 then they were

01:15:55.740 half prohibited,

01:15:56.780 now they're

01:15:57.180 tolerated.

01:15:57.760 But basically,

01:15:59.740 all the

01:16:01.040 philosophers I

01:16:01.800 met there,

01:16:02.340 basically most

01:16:03.420 of them,

01:16:03.940 are very

01:16:04.680 cynical.

01:16:05.440 There is no

01:16:06.060 authentic humanist

01:16:08.980 thought,

01:16:09.620 social sciences

01:16:10.460 and so on.

01:16:11.520 They are very

01:16:12.180 cynical and so

01:16:13.220 on.

01:16:14.300 They have good

01:16:15.500 movies,

01:16:16.100 good writers

01:16:16.780 and so on,

01:16:18.080 but not good

01:16:18.860 social theory

01:16:20.100 and so on.

01:16:21.160 No, no, no.

01:16:21.660 What do you

01:16:22.200 think?

01:16:22.560 You think that

01:16:23.240 Russia couldn't 0.95

01:16:24.460 have done better

01:16:25.120 without Putin?

01:16:25.860 I think for

01:16:28.020 that culture

01:16:29.300 and that

01:16:29.880 community,

01:16:31.280 for him to

01:16:32.040 be able to

01:16:32.500 manage it

01:16:33.000 the way he

01:16:33.460 has,

01:16:34.580 to still

01:16:35.600 keep a

01:16:36.340 form of

01:16:37.080 the capitalism

01:16:37.740 because he's

01:16:38.260 opened the

01:16:38.600 market,

01:16:39.060 businesses are

01:16:39.660 doing good,

01:16:40.560 people are

01:16:40.880 making money,

01:16:41.820 but he has

01:16:42.340 still kept

01:16:43.800 the loyalty

01:16:44.600 of the

01:16:45.220 communists,

01:16:45.900 I think that's

01:16:46.340 a very complex

01:16:47.280 thing to do.

01:16:48.600 And I think

01:16:48.920 he's done

01:16:49.220 the loyalty

01:16:49.600 of the big

01:16:50.260 capital,

01:16:50.920 yeah.

01:16:51.660 Yeah,

01:16:51.900 because it's

01:16:53.140 very hard to

01:16:54.080 both gain

01:16:55.000 the vote of

01:16:55.800 the capitalists

01:16:56.660 and the

01:16:57.040 communists.

01:16:57.960 That's like

01:16:58.860 being a

01:16:59.860 pastor of

01:17:00.600 a Christian

01:17:01.140 church and

01:17:01.920 going on

01:17:02.460 to a

01:17:04.020 Muslim,

01:17:04.560 and he's

01:17:05.700 been able to

01:17:06.300 kind of do

01:17:06.700 that because

01:17:07.020 it's total

01:17:07.620 polar opposite

01:17:08.440 philosophies.

01:17:10.040 That's the

01:17:10.420 part I think

01:17:10.860 about.

01:17:10.960 Yeah,

01:17:11.180 but again,

01:17:12.560 the problem

01:17:13.180 is that

01:17:14.500 the way he

01:17:15.640 did it is

01:17:16.420 that I

01:17:17.040 spoke with

01:17:17.680 some people

01:17:18.120 who were

01:17:18.440 close to

01:17:19.000 Putin and

01:17:19.660 they were

01:17:20.020 disappointed.

01:17:20.800 They say

01:17:21.200 he relies

01:17:22.580 too much

01:17:23.140 on how is

01:17:23.740 it now

01:17:24.080 called the

01:17:24.680 new KGB

01:17:25.300 control.

01:17:26.700 This KGB

01:17:27.840 control is

01:17:29.000 very non-productive.

01:17:31.340 Even his

01:17:32.040 own tycoons,

01:17:34.260 billionaires,

01:17:35.360 they don't

01:17:35.980 trust him.

01:17:37.080 You still have

01:17:37.720 this tendency,

01:17:38.540 okay,

01:17:38.700 now it's

01:17:39.100 different.

01:17:39.600 He'll

01:17:39.740 recently move

01:17:41.220 as much

01:17:41.840 money as

01:17:42.520 possible

01:17:43.020 outside.

01:17:43.680 I'm curious

01:17:46.240 to know

01:17:46.440 what you

01:17:46.720 say about

01:17:47.100 this.

01:17:47.360 I don't

01:17:47.580 think any

01:17:48.240 billionaire

01:17:48.760 is going

01:17:49.320 to trust

01:17:49.840 the president

01:17:50.400 of any

01:17:51.140 country

01:17:51.720 they're a

01:17:52.160 part of

01:17:52.560 because at

01:17:54.640 that level

01:17:55.240 you can't

01:17:56.160 fully trust

01:17:57.200 a person

01:17:57.700 with that

01:17:58.140 kind of

01:17:58.420 authority

01:17:58.800 and power.

01:18:01.380 Especially

01:18:01.780 when you

01:18:02.300 have some

01:18:02.700 people on

01:18:03.200 the back

01:18:03.600 end that

01:18:03.900 you talk

01:18:04.720 about in

01:18:05.020 Russia,

01:18:05.340 KGB,

01:18:05.900 and USP

01:18:06.340 and some

01:18:06.600 other people.

01:18:08.160 Who do you

01:18:09.000 trust?

01:18:09.440 Do you trust

01:18:10.000 anybody 100%?

01:18:11.180 Do you trust

01:18:11.760 any political

01:18:12.280 leaders 100%?

01:18:13.720 Of course

01:18:14.180 not,

01:18:14.600 but with

01:18:14.960 Putin it's

01:18:15.620 a very

01:18:15.980 rough game.

01:18:16.820 You know

01:18:16.980 what happened

01:18:17.440 to all

01:18:17.820 those

01:18:18.040 billionaires

01:18:18.700 who fell

01:18:19.220 out of

01:18:19.620 favor with

01:18:20.240 him and

01:18:20.720 so on

01:18:21.100 and so

01:18:21.440 on?

01:18:21.640 I know

01:18:22.180 that.

01:18:23.560 But I'm

01:18:25.780 not talking

01:18:26.700 as a

01:18:27.080 moralist

01:18:27.660 now.

01:18:28.300 I'm only

01:18:28.780 talking

01:18:29.460 in very

01:18:31.640 pragmatic

01:18:32.300 terms.

01:18:33.280 I think

01:18:33.760 that nonetheless

01:18:34.460 economy could

01:18:36.020 have been

01:18:36.660 managed in

01:18:38.040 a more

01:18:38.620 efficient way.

01:18:40.220 What my

01:18:40.560 Russian friends

01:18:41.360 are telling

01:18:41.880 me,

01:18:42.280 you know,

01:18:43.040 forget about

01:18:43.700 Moscow,

01:18:44.820 Petersburg,

01:18:45.640 these big

01:18:46.140 cities.

01:18:47.320 Go to the

01:18:48.120 Russian province,

01:18:49.180 to these small

01:18:49.840 anonymous cities

01:18:50.880 of 100,000

01:18:52.520 people,

01:18:53.460 and there

01:18:53.840 you see

01:18:54.840 it's still

01:18:55.360 the old

01:18:55.860 inertia

01:18:56.440 and so on

01:18:57.200 and so on.

01:18:58.040 Slavoj,

01:18:58.640 I've had such

01:18:59.500 a good time

01:19:00.200 talking to

01:19:00.820 you here

01:19:01.160 today.

01:19:02.340 And I

01:19:03.220 think we

01:19:03.860 started off

01:19:04.520 with you

01:19:04.960 being a

01:19:05.420 communist.

01:19:05.900 We went

01:19:06.120 to socialist.

01:19:06.880 I think

01:19:07.140 by the next

01:19:07.600 time you're

01:19:07.860 going to be

01:19:08.080 a capitalist.

01:19:08.760 I mean,

01:19:08.920 this is a

01:19:09.260 very good

01:19:09.600 progress

01:19:10.000 we're making

01:19:10.440 together as

01:19:12.300 we're going

01:19:13.020 with these

01:19:13.460 conversations.

01:19:14.480 But final

01:19:15.380 words,

01:19:15.820 I'm going to

01:19:16.160 give you the

01:19:16.560 final words.

01:19:17.380 What are your

01:19:17.720 final words

01:19:18.320 before we wrap

01:19:18.940 up this

01:19:19.340 interview?

01:19:20.440 This,

01:19:20.960 again,

01:19:22.420 very pathetic

01:19:23.320 one,

01:19:23.860 simple,

01:19:24.520 that our

01:19:25.360 lives are

01:19:26.440 changing.

01:19:27.580 The challenges

01:19:28.160 are immense.

01:19:29.500 and that's

01:19:30.720 why it's

01:19:32.320 important to

01:19:33.940 be aware

01:19:34.460 that it's

01:19:35.000 not just a

01:19:35.540 crisis that

01:19:36.300 will fall,

01:19:36.920 that our

01:19:37.300 future is

01:19:38.200 decided now.

01:19:39.860 Now we

01:19:40.600 are choosing

01:19:41.440 a new

01:19:42.400 world,

01:19:43.460 de facto,

01:19:44.140 if we want

01:19:45.000 it or not.

01:19:46.040 Now it's

01:19:46.580 decided.

01:19:47.280 Will it be

01:19:47.860 Trump style

01:19:49.480 of capitalism

01:19:51.080 where it

01:19:51.520 doesn't matter

01:19:52.080 if tens of

01:19:52.700 thousands die?

01:19:54.020 Will it be

01:19:54.720 a new version

01:19:56.360 of China

01:19:57.020 totally controlled?

01:19:58.140 Let's hope

01:19:59.300 that there

01:19:59.840 will be

01:20:00.180 other options

01:20:01.200 but it's

01:20:02.260 not just

01:20:02.740 a crisis

01:20:03.700 and then

01:20:04.280 again,

01:20:05.620 a new

01:20:06.060 world is

01:20:06.940 being created

01:20:08.080 now.

01:20:08.820 So be

01:20:09.340 careful.

01:20:10.500 And I

01:20:11.260 will repeat

01:20:11.780 you,

01:20:12.660 trust no

01:20:13.960 one.

01:20:14.680 I think we

01:20:15.100 finish it on

01:20:15.660 that.

01:20:16.020 And with

01:20:16.540 that being

01:20:16.880 said,

01:20:17.120 Slavo,

01:20:17.440 again,

01:20:17.680 thank you

01:20:17.960 so much

01:20:18.260 for your

01:20:18.480 time for

01:20:19.040 being a

01:20:19.340 guest.

01:20:19.500 And then

01:20:19.780 if you

01:20:20.060 want,

01:20:20.400 we do

01:20:20.700 another

01:20:21.160 so that

01:20:21.600 we fill

01:20:22.000 in the

01:20:22.340 gaps.

01:20:22.820 I look

01:20:23.220 forward

01:20:23.480 to it.

01:20:23.880 I think

01:20:24.960 that's a

01:20:25.260 good idea.

01:20:25.640 Your

01:20:28.140 right

01:20:28.300 and we

01:20:28.720 do it.

01:20:29.180 That sounds

01:20:29.600 good to

01:20:29.860 me.

01:20:30.240 Thanks

01:20:30.500 everybody

01:20:30.800 for listening

01:20:31.360 and by

01:20:31.700 the way,

01:20:31.920 if you

01:20:32.040 haven't

01:20:32.280 already

01:20:32.540 subscribed

01:20:33.000 to

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01:20:34.860 please do

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01:20:36.100 Give us

01:20:36.420 a five

01:20:36.820 star,

01:20:37.380 write a

01:20:37.840 review if

01:20:38.200 you haven't

01:20:38.460 already.

01:20:39.000 And if

01:20:39.200 you have

01:20:39.360 any

01:20:39.520 questions

01:20:39.980 for me

01:20:40.460 that you

01:20:40.660 may

01:20:40.780 have,

01:20:41.140 you

01:20:41.280 can

01:20:41.440 always

01:20:41.720 find

01:20:41.960 me

01:20:42.080 on

01:20:42.220 Snapchat,

01:20:42.980 Instagram,

01:20:43.720 Facebook,

01:20:44.320 or YouTube.

01:20:44.960 Just search

01:20:45.380 my name,

01:20:45.840 Patrick

01:20:46.220 David,

01:20:46.840 and I

01:20:47.200 actually

01:20:47.580 do

01:20:47.960 respond

01:20:48.480 back

01:20:48.820 when you

01:20:49.120 snap

01:20:49.440 me or

01:20:50.000 send me

01:20:50.340 a message

01:20:50.720 on

01:20:51.100 Instagram.

01:20:51.700 With that

01:20:51.980 being said,

01:20:52.420 have a

01:20:52.660 great day

01:20:53.160 today.

01:20:53.500 Take care

01:20:53.760 everybody.

01:20:54.260 Bye-bye.

Valuetainment - July 21, 2020

Episode 496： Communist Philosopher Trashes Capitalism - Slavoj Žižek

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