Valuetainment - FBI Agent Explains How To Detect Deception & Criminal Profiling

00:00:00.000 tell us your story from where you were at to becoming an fbi agent my brother peter gave me

00:00:04.080 a call and said look now that you're a prosecutor we should do something about the director of the

00:00:08.400 camp when we were kids i went undercover i met with the guy i wore a wire and we locked up the

00:00:14.240 guy correcting that injustice ended up with the agent pushing over an application to me and saying

00:00:20.400 you should join the fbi becoming a murderer committing major crimes of taking someone's

00:00:25.120 life is it nurture is it nature the way i like to summarize it is genetics loads the gun personality

00:00:30.960 and psychology aims it and your experiences pull the trigger what do you mean when you say snipers

00:00:35.520 have a god complex it's not as easy to pull the trigger on human beings as it is on paper targets

00:00:40.320 generally people choose to snipe versus one-on-one contact with their victims

00:00:46.160 because they want to feel omnipotent they want to feel powerful

00:00:50.080 my guest today had a 22 year career with the fbi and here's what's so interesting about him

00:00:57.680 i've interviewed a lot of fbi guys and i've watched a lot of commentary and interviews from fbi agents

00:01:03.600 he was a supervisor and this is probably one of the best teachers in the area of crime that i've seen

00:01:11.600 myself on how they go about catching a bad guy what is the idea of a sniper why the sniper has a god

00:01:18.880 complex and is it nurture versus nature the fact that somebody becomes a killer the way he breaks

00:01:25.120 it down is very interesting and he's from an interesting family as well both he and his

00:01:29.040 brother two brothers are fbi agents him and his other brother tim are fbi agents peter took a

00:01:33.920 different route became a business owner now they're all running the business together

00:01:37.280 which we'll talk about maybe throughout the interview but having said that jim

00:01:40.720 thank you so much for being a guest on valutainment

00:01:54.960 again we were talking offline before we started doing the interview i was fascinated about your

00:02:10.640 style of teaching but before we get into it uh on some of the questions i got i'd like to profile

00:02:17.520 somebody today as well hopefully we'll be able to do that because i was watching your system on how you

00:02:22.960 you you know the the catch a liar the different signs obviously that you said there's nothing

00:02:27.840 that's undisputable there's not an undisputable way of catching a lie but there's a system for it but

00:02:34.080 you know you don't become an fbi agent because uh you just wake up one day become an fbi agent at

00:02:40.080 least i don't think maybe that was the case with you typically there's got to be a reason to drive a

00:02:44.640 story family upbringing sports you know correcting an injustice tell us your story from where you were

00:02:51.520 out to becoming an fbi agent well that's pretty pretty insightful on your part there because

00:02:56.000 there are at least two injustices that i think i tried to correct um and becoming an fbi agent helped

00:03:03.840 me do that uh but when i was a kid uh just a toddler i was always exploring things i remember i asked my

00:03:11.840 mother how the clock in the kitchen works and she said well you plug it in and electricity makes it move and

00:03:17.600 i was like no i mean how do the hands know how fast to go so i couldn't reach the one in the kitchen

00:03:23.200 but i could stand on a chair and grab the cuckoo clock in the living room and i got a pair of pliers

00:03:29.120 and a screwdriver and i and i opened up the back of it i took out all the gears and figured out why

00:03:35.440 the one arm went faster than the other and of course my mother found me with the whole thing all

00:03:41.200 disassembled on the living room floor and she let out a scream because it was a family heirloom

00:03:47.360 and i carefully put it all back together and to me that kind of sense of exploration it what i wanted

00:03:53.680 to be a detective i wanted to figure things out but then i became a chemistry major in college chemistry

00:04:00.160 and philosophy then went to law school and i thought well joining the police department kind of be

00:04:05.680 taken a step backwards i couldn't just walk in to become a detective and so i became a prosecutor

00:04:12.080 and that was very fulfilling very busy work but then i i kind of had this thing in the back of my head

00:04:22.320 my grandfather was killed by the mob he owned a construction company in in new york city he wasn't

00:04:30.480 playing their games and he ended up getting accidentally electrocuted on this on the site

00:04:36.960 and a month later his son who took over the company my my cousin my excuse me my uncle guy

00:04:42.640 he was also killed in an accidental bulldozer accident and my father actually went to law school

00:04:50.480 on the gi bill to sue to get the company back and by the time he did these uh sort of mob union guys

00:04:58.320 had taken over sold off all the assets and he got you know pennies for this company that was actually

00:05:05.040 doing millions of dollars of work they they built the manhattan county courthouse a bunch of buildings

00:05:10.000 on fordham columbia columbia law school and uh the brooklyn battery tunnel you know they were doing

00:05:15.680 major jobs and and it was gone so my father had to start from scratch so i think that that sense of

00:05:23.680 injustice ingrained in myself and my brother tim a desire to actually make sure justice happens for

00:05:32.000 other people and the other thing was that my brother peter gave me a call and said look now that you're a

00:05:37.920 prosecutor we should do something about that the director of the camp when we were kids and i said

00:05:46.400 whoa why and he said because i once snuck into his office and i found hundreds of pictures of him

00:05:53.440 molesting boys and i said i thought i was the only one and so the next day i went to the fbi and ypd

00:06:00.480 task force on sexual exploitation of children we started a case and i went undercover i met with the guy i

00:06:08.320 wore a wire and uh we we locked up the guy and he had been responsible for somewhere between 50 and

00:06:16.240 200 victims over the course of his career he was he worked for the catholic church he taught in 23

00:06:25.120 excuse me he taught in 13 different catholic schools over 23 years every time there was an allegation

00:06:31.600 they let him walk out the door and go down the street to another school and so correcting that

00:06:37.280 injustice ended up with the agent pushing over an application to me at the end of the trial and saying

00:06:44.400 you should join the fbi you did an amazing job on this case and literally that's how i became an fbi

00:06:49.680 agent so it was a sense of correcting injustice and it helped me turn something that was very difficult

00:06:56.560 in my life into something very positive by helping victims get through the same kind of thing or very

00:07:02.240 different things it made me feel better about the experience i had in my life so you said peter called

00:07:07.520 not tim right so peter's the one that's not the fbi agent that called to you when you were a

00:07:12.560 prosecutor saying let's go after that director did he know the story with you and the director or he did

00:07:17.520 not not until he made that call i never told anyone okay well i did tell the priest at my school who told

00:07:24.560 me i absolve you of your sins say nothing more about this years later i would be investigating that same

00:07:31.440 priest who molested kids in my class you gotta be kidding me no i'm serious and so you know there

00:07:37.680 was a lot of stuff that happened that uh i felt really set me on a course to try to correct things

00:07:43.520 rather than let them exist as they were now jim you're from uh san mateo california but you're from

00:07:49.920 new york yes yeah what's clemente what kind of a what nationality is your family mom and dad

00:07:55.440 uh well mom was actually scotch irish and my father was italian so i'm about when i did 23 and me it's

00:08:04.640 like basically 49.2 percent italian 49.4 percent irish so i'm about half and half there so they told

00:08:16.560 you the truth you see when i did mine on ancestry uh i i was told i'm half assyrian half armenian but

00:08:23.920 i'm 18 percent italian and i still can't figure out who hooked up with an italian so that's a

00:08:28.720 mystery in our family mom and dad won't tell me anything so it could have been yeah it could have

00:08:33.520 been something way way way back in history it probably was i mean listen i wouldn't be surprised

00:08:38.720 because italians are pretty smooth and uh somebody was probably a smooth talker but but are you still a

00:08:44.000 cath are you still a catholic yourself or no i actually separated from the church i i was pretty

00:08:49.440 disgusted by how they handled things not i mean i'm only giving you the scratching of the surface

00:08:54.560 but i i did when i joined the fbi they assigned me to the very task force the sexual exploitation of

00:09:01.120 children task force in new york city it was an nypd fbi joint task force i worked that task force for

00:09:08.320 several years and while i was there unfortunately i came into contact with a number of

00:09:16.000 other situations in which the catholic church had literally chosen to brush things under the rug

00:09:21.840 rather than address the victimization of children and i couldn't stand for that yeah i just wonder

00:09:27.920 because when a story like that happens dramatically you can't uh you know it's it's uh pretty tough to

00:09:34.640 go back to no matter how much people try to explain it to you like listen this is a life-changing anyways

00:09:39.600 okay sounds good well thank you for sharing that uh with myself in the audience so now that we know

00:09:44.880 that let's get right into your world of being an fbi agent so if you don't mind taking a minute you

00:09:51.440 know the part the way you explain it i asked this question who was i interviewing the the crime uh

00:09:57.440 detective from uk uh uh palm palm milleri yeah palm milleri yeah from uk who his job was to go interview

00:10:05.920 these guys and find out what it is and i asked him the question about nature versus nurture because

00:10:12.400 you know sometimes you're in school we have this one kid who was six years old who liked to throw

00:10:17.680 dogs out the window from fourth floor and like you gotta have something off to do that at six years

00:10:23.520 old and he was always a little weird right when he would do certain things so explain the nurture

00:10:29.040 versus nature of somebody who was born who eventually ends up becoming a murderer committing

00:10:36.000 major crimes of taking someone's life is it nurture is it nature well um i think people are are skipping a

00:10:42.880 very important component when you talk about nature versus nurture it's actually a combination of bio

00:10:48.400 psycho and social so you have a certain propensity or potentiality with your genetics you're born with the

00:10:56.480 abilities to do certain things and the inabilities to do other things but your psychology and your

00:11:03.120 personality are the filter through which you experience life so your socialization is actually

00:11:10.480 filtered through your psychology and personality and then your personality is actually made through the

00:11:19.600 millions of little private decisions you make in your own brain so that's how you affect how life affects you

00:11:27.040 and so the way i like to summarize it is genetics loads the gun personality and psychology aims it

00:11:35.840 and your experiences pull the trigger so unless you have that perfect storm of all three aspects

00:11:43.840 you won't get somebody who's going to go out and kill somebody you know they've done twin studies where

00:11:49.200 where one twin who's got the same genetics identical twins is in a is in a difficult situation and his

00:11:57.280 parents are suffering and they're sacrificing and they're not even getting enough food right because

00:12:03.520 they're feeding their kids and that one kid says i i i love my parents i i i see how they suffer for me when i

00:12:13.200 grow up i want to make sure they want for nothing i want to take care of them and the other twin says are you 0.97

00:12:17.760 kidding me they don't even give us what we deserve we deserve better they're failures i hate them

00:12:26.000 and that's the same genetics but the decisions that the one twin made in his own mind instead

00:12:32.160 of pushing away from the dark side he embraces it and that's the negative spin he puts on everything

00:12:38.640 he experiences and i think that's why you get people who ultimately go down the road of being a

00:12:46.320 killer or a serial killer or a rapist or zero rapists because they made these tiny little 0.83

00:12:51.840 decisions in their brains that they're more important than other people so so okay so i like

00:12:57.280 the way you put it you said genetics loads the gun personality and psychology aims it but then your

00:13:04.800 experiences pulls the trigger right so okay so now let's we just had the uh kyle rittenhouse uh case

00:13:11.520 by the way 10 minutes before we did the interview i'm sure you saw that uh being in the world not

00:13:15.200 guilty not guilty not guilty so what is it in his case okay so that's a current event that right now

00:13:21.680 everybody around the world is talking about absolutely what how would you classify his case well to me

00:13:29.120 some of the circumstances that came out in the trial that people didn't know beforehand

00:13:33.440 the fact is that he did not purchase that weapon he had a friend purchased it but he couldn't wait

00:13:40.000 to get his hands on it he wanted to feel more powerful he felt helpless and he wanted something

00:13:48.320 that was going to give him that power and then the the the riots and the uprising and the protests

00:13:55.040 gave him the opportunity to be called upon to be powerful with this weapon and so this is why we don't

00:14:01.920 give guns to 17 year olds this is why we have rules you can't buy it until you're 18 now if it's 0.61

00:14:09.120 supervised with an adult you can operate one earlier if you know how to do it and you can do it safely

00:14:15.280 but he did not have those circumstances but in this case because of the way the trial

00:14:22.480 fell out because of the way the evidence was or wasn't turned over some of these things were not given to

00:14:28.160 the jury and and the charges of him illegally possessing a weapon were dropped by the judge they

00:14:34.400 were they were thrown out and that sort of undermined the entire case but if you look at it behaviorally

00:14:42.400 this is a young man now who was a boy at the time a teenager who felt powerless and that weapon in his hand

00:14:51.840 gave him power so what did he do he went out to basically exercise that power in a situation where

00:15:00.560 he felt justified to do it so in his brain he said and and there was actually quotes of him saying

00:15:08.720 watching protests earlier on and violence earlier on saying oh man i wish i had my gun right this is

00:15:15.760 something that he had thought about a long time but he put himself in that opportunity so that he could

00:15:21.680 use that gun and no matter what somebody else did i believe that this is something that he

00:15:29.760 was destined to do he wanted to do this his personality drove him to be in a position where

00:15:35.760 he could pull that trigger and that was an irresponsible thing at the very least for him to do

00:15:41.680 do i believe that that he went out there because he wanted to actually exercise that power and

00:15:50.480 unfortunately ended in the death of two people a serious injury to a third i don't know all the facts

00:15:58.800 and circumstances because obviously i wasn't there so i don't know if this jury's verdict was was proper

00:16:05.360 or not but i do know there are going to be people that are very displeased with it thinking that it was

00:16:10.960 literally just because of biases unfortunately i think what it was was because of the legal way

00:16:18.640 the the legalities and the laws and how they are enforced in that particular state i don't believe

00:16:25.440 that the jury got it wrong i think that unfortunately the case fell apart because of

00:16:32.880 when and how the evidence was presented yeah it's by the way when you said he was destined do you

00:16:39.120 think in his mind he was doing the right thing and he was being a hero or do you think it is more and

00:16:44.400 again everything you say it's it's nothing is undisputable the word you say everything is sure

00:16:49.200 possible possibly right but do you think in his mind is like look i'm sick and tired of seeing all

00:16:54.480 these protesting and what they're doing to the business i'm gonna go be a hero and i'm gonna be

00:16:58.560 the next uh you know william wallace i'm gonna be a protector i'm gonna be you know this guy from this

00:17:03.520 movie absolutely okay so you think he's coming i believe that and the only question that remains

00:17:09.200 is what was in his heart what was in his mind in terms of bias is it something that he gets all fired

00:17:15.840 up about this because he is a biased person or is it not i mean many people thought that the people

00:17:21.440 that he killed and shot were actually african americans but they weren't they were not white people

00:17:27.280 yeah right there were white people who were advocating for black lives matter and and unfortunately

00:17:34.560 got involved in in violence i do not believe at all that violence was

00:17:40.720 something that had to happen on either side of that it's an unfortunate choice that people made and

00:17:46.880 unfortunately when you have mob violence people do a lot worse than they do on their own than they would

00:17:52.880 ever do on their own and that's part of people's personalities and going along and this is all

00:17:58.560 behavior that we've documented throughout history you know to me this this this obviously we can take

00:18:05.760 different angles one guy brought up the politics side i said listen if this guy's uh if you're thinking

00:18:10.880 this is political the judge that said not guilty not guilty not guilty based on what the jury said

00:18:15.840 the judge was appointed by obama so it can't be political this is a you know of course they want to

00:18:21.040 make it political don't get me wrong the state that's worried 500 national guards you've read

00:18:25.520 it i've read it we know the stories about how worried they are about what could potentially happen

00:18:29.600 there but all i think about in a situation like this is how we can improve as a society not how to

00:18:35.600 work backwards so you know as a parent your parents would say you know nothing good happens after

00:18:40.640 midnight you know those stories they're like mom you don't know what you're talking i'm going to an

00:18:43.520 after hour so four o'clock in the morning you know and then one instance you go to a club and there's

00:18:48.400 shooting you know a guy gets shot one of your friends gets shot like you know what man half

00:18:52.880 these things parents tell you when you're a kid about not going to these places is right

00:18:56.640 so you know even getting yourself caught up to go get in a protesting like that a riot to support

00:19:03.920 something that turns ugly you're one foolish decision away from ruin your life so i i couldn't

00:19:10.480 agree with you more and unfortunately as i said it's it's the kind of thing where it's sort of a snowball 0.91

00:19:16.880 effect i mean once he went out there with the intent to to sort of assert this new power that

00:19:22.240 he had with this gun uh this kind of thing was inevitable i think for him yeah i you know i i

00:19:28.720 wonder how much of that has to do with the steering of the pot whether what was going on with the

00:19:32.400 politics at the time the left the right the media who knows but all i know is it led to two people not

00:19:37.920 being here right now so whether it's guilty or not guilty that family is still going to be mourning

00:19:42.720 about the loss of to their kids brother you know whoever that you know the the connection it is to

00:19:47.920 the family but okay so let's process that from a logical standpoint is there any way based on these

00:19:54.480 three things we're talking about genetics loads the gun great mass is pretty cool i got a gun i'm

00:19:59.200 powerful right you know personality and psychology aims all right and then you got the experience that's

00:20:05.280 like i'm going to pull the trigger you know like the the what's that one movie where you prevent a

00:20:11.040 crime from happening before it happens with tom cruise what was the name of that movie it's not

00:20:14.400 born identity it's not uh uh uh anyways there was a movie that he did something effect right uh i get

00:20:21.120 the movie here when you when you when i ask a question from you what technology or data predictive

00:20:29.040 analytics is the fbi currently working on to be able to get to the point of one of these things not

00:20:38.400 triggering the last one if that makes any sense yeah it's funny you mention that uh so when i when i

00:20:44.800 was in the behavioral analysis unit which is part of the national center for the analysis of violent

00:20:49.680 crime we were doing a number of different research projects um everything from parents who kill their

00:20:56.320 kids to people who attack the elderly uh to serial killers and sex offenders all of those studies

00:21:03.600 were going on simultaneously the whole purpose of that is to look at behavior to try to find points

00:21:10.400 of intervention in the rittenhouse case the point of intervention is would have been preventing him

00:21:18.560 from getting that weapon until he was developmentally mature enough to actually hold it and use it and

00:21:27.360 not like a child would unfortunately because he was young i think this is why i mean there were lots of

00:21:34.560 other people out there with the same kind of weapons who didn't kill anybody that night right so what is

00:21:41.120 the difference i think it was his develop developmental immaturity and that could have been stopped i don't

00:21:48.160 know by parents or some other adult that was in that uh sort of circle of influence around him someone who heard

00:21:56.480 him say uh i can't i wish i had my gun uh and and intervened at that point said wait a minute that's

00:22:03.040 not the answer here that's only going to escalate the violence we need to de-escalate the violence

00:22:08.000 and it's like when i went to guantanamo uh and and i was i was tasked with evaluating their interrogation

00:22:15.120 program and i discovered that they were torturing people and put a stop to it it i i i was horrified

00:22:23.600 one because they're they're literally hurting defenseless people i don't care what they did in

00:22:29.440 the past they are now shackled they are in u.s custody and they're being tortured that is not

00:22:35.760 right from a human standpoint but it's also wrong from a standpoint of getting accurate and reliable

00:22:41.280 information so i taught them how to do rapport based interrogation and i think rapport based

00:22:49.280 intervention in the kyle rittenhouse case could have prevented him from being out there that night

00:22:54.240 with his weapon with the weapon that was not legally purchased for him that he was not allowed to

00:23:01.280 possess yet because he wasn't yet 18 that i think that rapport based intervention could have helped

00:23:09.920 him avoid that situation so i want to get into that but before getting into that by the way the movie was

00:23:14.720 called minority report is what the movie was and i watched the movie in regards to uh guantanamo bay

00:23:20.800 which they did a great job by the way the more mauritanian i don't know how to pronounce the word

00:23:26.000 i don't know if you saw the movie or not it's uh mauritanian yes i'm not sure i saw the report i i saw

00:23:33.360 that one yeah this one here i think you got to watch this one as well because it's based on the true story

00:23:38.240 of muhammad aoud salahi who was held there for 14 years and tortured and it's a very painful movie

00:23:46.560 to watch but they do a great job depicting what happened uh with the event i'm not allowed to talk

00:23:51.520 about the particular people that were involved but i i'm pretty certain i know what happened behind the

00:23:58.800 scenes in that movie yeah i'm sure you do that's why i brought it up so uh so going back to what you

00:24:04.480 said so report based intervention rapport based i'm sorry rapport like building rapport you know

00:24:10.880 tell me about yourself tell me about upbringing so walk me through the torture base is torture

00:24:16.800 base pretty much what we think it is uh where you know pain anything they can to eventually get this

00:24:23.200 person to say yes and then is rapport based taking a little bit more time to build a relationship can you

00:24:29.200 give us the different from your point of view i'll give you the the both sides of it so the the program

00:24:35.200 that they were implementing it it was called fear up person down all right so they wanted to scare these

00:24:43.600 people and and remove them their humanity from them basically they were humiliating them they were

00:24:53.280 confusing them they were keeping them up all night they were shining bright lights in their face they

00:24:58.000 were playing loud music they were having guard dogs they were doing all sorts of very cruel things and

00:25:04.000 then it just escalated as time went on to worse and worse things and and what that does especially with

00:25:11.840 people who have lived a tough and hardened life is reinforce that the people who are doing this to you

00:25:20.560 are the same ones who made your life and your family's life and your grandfather's life miserable so it

00:25:27.360 hardens them in their own goals it does not undermine their expectations like rapport-based

00:25:35.200 interrogation does what happens is they come they come to this situation and they expect to be treated

00:25:41.600 horribly by the monsters that have created this in their mind because this is how they were trained this is how

00:25:47.680 they were recruited these monsters from america they caused all this pain and suffering in your life and your 0.84

00:25:56.720 family's life so the torture only reinforces that but if you give them dignity and respect and

00:26:04.560 share a human connection that bridge that you build with them by sharing something with yourself from

00:26:11.360 yourself and asking and being sincere about inquiring about their lives and their faith and their culture

00:26:20.480 by doing that it shows them that you're a human being just like they are and that connection

00:26:29.120 is a is a hell of a lot stronger than anything you'll ever build by hurting someone so what it is is it

00:26:36.720 undermines their expectations they now don't understand wait a minute uh i thought all these people were

00:26:43.840 evil and monsters why is this person being nice to me and then they start saying well maybe maybe what i

00:26:51.840 found out before wasn't true what i found out now is true and you have an opportunity there to actually

00:26:59.280 build a connection and get people to cooperate rather than to firm their resolve to kill you to destroy your

00:27:07.360 society to destroy your faith so i what i did was i asked them to give me their worst detainee the one

00:27:17.520 that was hardened the most and that would not at all cooperate and he was actually a hafiz so he he

00:27:25.440 memorized the quran and anytime anybody tried to interrogate him he would just quietly whisper the

00:27:30.560 quran to himself and he was in another world he never even acknowledged another person 1.00

00:27:34.640 and in the over the course of 11 days i met with him i gave him dignity and respect i treated him

00:27:43.200 like a human being i gave him control over when and how we met and i i told him i'm here i'm a

00:27:51.840 behavioral analyst i'm stuck here for months i would love to take the opportunity to to learn about your

00:27:58.320 faith and your culture and your culture and you as a person and slowly i revealed things about myself

00:28:05.760 and eventually he revealed things about himself and at the end he said jim my friend what can i do for

00:28:13.600 you and he began to cooperate with us fully and that was to demonstrate how the process works it takes

00:28:22.160 a little more time maybe but it actually is effective at getting accurate and reliable information

00:28:28.640 and it doesn't perpetuate the the horror stories that they've learned growing up about us

00:28:38.320 it actually helps them understand us uh jim how much of this is uh are you a sports guy or no

00:28:44.480 uh somewhat but you know i i i like playing playing sports rather than just watching it on tv are you

00:28:53.200 a giants fan are you a jets fan are you a nicks fan are you a yankees fan look the only team ever is

00:28:58.640 the yankees i'm sorry all right so fair enough i mean you sound like you'd be a yankees guy forget

00:29:02.800 about it yeah so so so go with the yankees you know so you know how some in baseball

00:29:07.520 uh there's different philosophies to win a world series the braves for the longest time in the

00:29:14.160 90s they had a strong pitching uh philosophy right and they had these all these kevin millwood

00:29:19.040 they had john smoltz glavin uh i'm forgetting the main guy greg maddox they had all these guys right

00:29:25.280 and they won one but they were always the best team in the league right you go to

00:29:29.680 the yankees the way they do they wait for guys to go to other teams and they come and overpay them

00:29:34.640 and bring them to the yankees and dominate the marketplace right you look at the tampa bay devil

00:29:38.960 raids recently where it's the pitchers pitch three innings instead of five or complete games you

00:29:44.400 don't have a lot of complete games how much of this is fear up person down versus rapport

00:29:51.280 based intervention intervention how much of it is philosophy versus results meaning this is how

00:29:57.280 we get our results this is how you do it versus no report base is more effective than fear up

00:30:03.920 person down because i had friends who were in in in delta and i had friends who were dealt with

00:30:09.920 those guys directly so to them you know they've seen how they were what would you say to somebody

00:30:15.600 that says it's easy for him to say we deal with these guys they're not as nice as jim makes it out to

00:30:21.280 be what would you say to those folks well i would say there there are different sets of exigencies

00:30:29.200 in different circumstances if you're in a battlefield and somebody has information about

00:30:36.480 500 people who are about to be killed there are ways that military people deal with those people

00:30:45.120 that is not an in custody interrogation situation here's the thing in the fbi we have always used

00:30:53.200 constitutionally approved grounds for interrogation it's a different it's a more difficult route to

00:31:00.160 take but it has proven over a hundred years that we can actually get people who are just as bad as any

00:31:12.240 terrorist serial killers people who have taken the lives of of elderly people people innocent people in

00:31:19.600 their own home children they have viciously killed them but we've gotten them to cooperate and actually

00:31:27.600 admit what they did wrong and how did we do that again by building a bridge a human bridge because no

00:31:35.120 matter how hard that terrorist is or that battle combatant is there's still a human being and if you can

00:31:43.120 get to that humanity and make a connection then the chances of you getting reliable and accurate

00:31:50.000 information are much greater and that's that's the the strictures under which all fbi agents and law

00:31:58.960 enforcement officers operate military people are in a different world and i don't know that world as well i don't

00:32:06.560 know if it actually produces on in the moment um accurate and reliable information but i know that

00:32:14.880 it's illegal for anybody to do that to somebody when they're in custody and i know that the

00:32:23.280 the torture statute in the united states is very clear about it well you know the geneva convention

00:32:29.440 their their uh the code amongst how you're supposed to treat a pow is a pretty clear code amongst

00:32:36.320 everybody that follows yes but but you and i know what happens the the part that made it interesting

00:32:41.600 with paul mallory the guy from uk who his job is to go sit down and talk to these guys that just

00:32:46.640 apparently killed somebody and they're potentially the suspect is he says in uk the law is i have 36 hours

00:32:53.920 so i have to try to get information in 36 hours in your world you have time on your side so maybe you're

00:32:59.200 like look i'm gonna be here for six months i don't really have any other place to go tell me a little

00:33:03.280 bit more about the quran what i can see that because you're getting me to sit down and say you know what 0.94

00:33:10.080 shit this ah i like this guy man listen here's really what happened you know that that that that 0.89

00:33:14.880 that right but uh when i when i gave you that example i mean that this is a this is a a person who was 0.97

00:33:22.320 in custody for quite a bit of time who had been treated badly already and so i had to sort of

00:33:29.040 undo all the damage that was done but when we're talking about a law enforcement interrogation even

00:33:35.040 of serial killers generally we say you know spend at least four hours with the person but i'm talking

00:33:43.920 about when we're when you're in that situation generally it happens within four to six to eight

00:33:49.600 hours it's not something that takes days it's literally the ability of someone to be

00:33:55.120 you know human to another person and to show that there is a way to help you through the situation

00:34:04.480 and it has to be based on that person's personality so what we want to do is assess that and certain

00:34:09.920 people who are very narcissistic you have to feed their ego certain people who are very sort of they're

00:34:15.120 vulnerable narcissists in other words they puff out their chest because they feel so badly about

00:34:20.240 themselves so you want to help them feel better and so again it you read each individual and you

00:34:28.640 look at their own personality and psychology and be and you learn that through their behavior and then you

00:34:35.840 use that and you try to make a bridge so that they feel comfortable coming over to your side rather than being

00:34:44.240 being bullied or forced over yeah i almost feel like this so so who almost feel like this person that

00:34:51.280 can probably get the most out of uh the the case has to be as unemotion emotionally disattached from the

00:34:58.880 situation as possible that you bring from the outside they can sit down and talk to them because if you're

00:35:03.760 emotionally attached to the situation you're not going to be able to handle the situation properly so

00:35:10.400 it's probably not the job of everybody either i think it takes the right personality to be able

00:35:15.120 to do that yeah we call it a clinical detachment just like a surgeon focuses only on the area that

00:35:20.880 they're that they're doing surgery on but but actually emotion could be an important component of

00:35:27.360 it it's just that you can't carry the negative emotion into it what you have to do is separate your

00:35:32.560 own feelings about whatever they did yeah and look at it clinically but then you also have to be willing

00:35:38.560 to be very emotional with someone sometimes it's literally making a connection putting your hand

00:35:44.640 on their shoulder on the knee telling them look at me i'm i'm serious this is your opportunity to help

00:35:50.960 yourself this is your opportunity to come clean this is your opportunity to not be haunted by this for

00:35:55.840 the rest of your life whatever is the best approach because you really want them to get get to a point

00:36:02.480 where they will tell you the truth and that's your that's your ultimate goal the last thing you want

00:36:07.040 somebody to do is tell you something that isn't true because they want the pain to stop that's

00:36:13.040 right that's right so to just kind of uh you know and we've seen that happen and it happens in

00:36:18.000 relationships it happens in you know kids with their parent relationship boss employee relation happens

00:36:24.320 everywhere but let's let's go back to uh what i brought up earlier when you said uh snipers have a

00:36:29.920 god complex so can you unpack that what do you mean when you say snipers have a god complex

00:36:34.000 whatever we at the behavioral analysis unit look at a crime at a series of crimes we reverse engineer

00:36:42.080 back to the type of person who committed that crime so basically in the case of snipers the choice

00:36:49.520 the weapon choice is one of distance uh the whole point is that there is no physical connection between

00:36:57.680 the offender and the victim in a sniper case and the sniper chooses to take life from above and afar

00:37:05.600 and that's very godlike whereas there are other offenders who want to get up close and personal

00:37:12.160 manual strangulation stabbing those things are are sort of in your face and that it requires a different

00:37:20.960 type of personality and generally people choose to snipe versus actually one-on-one contact with their

00:37:30.000 victims because they feel they want to feel omnipotent they want to feel powerful and in this case so so for

00:37:39.680 example if if you look at the dc sniper case one of the major issues in that case was that there was a

00:37:48.480 dichotomy between how this person planned it executed shootings flawlessly and how they communicated to us

00:38:01.680 through written the written word and jim fitzgerald who was sitting next to me in the in the bau

00:38:09.520 said everybody was talking about in this sniper case how this guy six times within 27 hours one

00:38:18.320 shot one kill he was in and out he there was no decompensation there was no adrenaline rush that

00:38:24.240 made him make mistakes he was a ghost and everybody said he's got to be older settled police or military

00:38:33.840 trained and have police or military experience because it's not as easy to pull the trigger on human

00:38:40.560 beings as it is on paper targets and so everybody was agreeing to that but then jim fitzgerald said yeah but

00:38:48.080 if you look at this tarot card and this letter that they left us it says this is for you mr police

00:38:57.120 and that told fitzgerald that that the writer was looking up to the police not like from a powerful

00:39:02.720 position omnipotent position but from below and he mr police is is a common phrase in in reggae songs in the

00:39:12.640 caribbean and so he felt there was a caribbean influence here and that the person was younger

00:39:17.760 and even one of the one of the communications had those little stars that you put on a kindergartner's

00:39:23.440 paper or picture like what the hell what kind of a sophisticated 45 year old is gonna put that on a

00:39:30.640 communication to the cops so fitz says if he's an adult he's barely an adult but he's more likely 15 or 16

00:39:37.840 and everybody just blew up at that and i said look then either this guy is incredibly poised and

00:39:48.320 sophisticated when he plans and executes his shootings but he decompensates when he's communicating

00:39:54.080 to us or for the first time in u.s history we have a sniper team and the rest of the people said what

00:40:00.000 are you crazy snipers have a god complex they don't work well together they've never done it in the history of

00:40:04.880 u.s crime why would this happen now and i said well you could do it if one of them's 45 and one of 0.93

00:40:12.800 them's 15 and this one is controlling that one the younger one and if he's controlling him completely

00:40:22.080 he may be sexually victimizing him to do that and everybody said well you're an expert in that field

00:40:27.440 so that's why you know you got a hammer everything looks like a nail to you you're just superimposing

00:40:34.080 that well it turned out about 10 or 11 years later malvo came out and said almost from day one that

00:40:40.000 muhammad had been sexually victimizing him and so those things those behaviors leaked out information

00:40:48.080 that they didn't intend to give us so we put that into the profile that they were african-american and

00:40:54.400 one was 45 and one was 15 and that they would probably have a caribbean influence in their life

00:41:01.120 and and within 24 hours they were arrested now we we go through that in in in in a audible original

00:41:09.840 series that we created call me god where my brother and i tell our different stories because we both

00:41:14.800 tim and i worked that case together we were sort of off the grid because we weren't supposed to be

00:41:20.720 working the case but these shootings happened in our own neighborhood and we couldn't let it go tim's

00:41:26.400 wife was at the the same gas pump that one of the victims was shot at 10 10 minutes later that's how

00:41:33.680 close to home it was so these cases sometimes uh you can't avoid working them you know they you're drawn

00:41:42.880 into them and tim and i had a very different way of looking at it he was out with he's a sniper he knows

00:41:50.240 snipers he was out hunting with his swat team looking for opportunities where they might strike

00:41:56.960 next and he was one mile away from the home depot when an actual fbi employee was shot and killed at

00:42:04.880 that home depot he was the first law enforcement officer to arrive at that scene and we were very

00:42:10.000 early on the scene in the in the frederidgeburg shooting uh situations because that's where we lived at

00:42:16.720 the time so the fact is that the behavior that these offenders exhibited told us that for the first

00:42:25.600 time in u.s history we had a sniper team they had a god complex muhammad certainly had a god complex 0.89

00:42:33.520 and he was trying to ingrain that into malvo but malvo would never have been involved in that level of

00:42:40.480 violence had it not been for muhammad basically forcing him into it what a technical case though i

00:42:47.120 mean how how does one make those two connections with a 45 year old and a team because you're getting a

00:42:55.520 feel of both when they communicate doesn't uh i mean that uh it it's funny because tim found the

00:43:03.280 found the letter at one of the shooting scenes in ashland virginia and that letter gave me and jim

00:43:08.960 fitzgerald and the rest of my team the information i mean it leaked out information that's what behavior

00:43:14.800 does that's they call us in not when there's you know plenty of dna and blood evidence and the weapons

00:43:20.960 found at the scene our video of the offender exists they call us in where there's nothing

00:43:27.200 and we take the behavior and as i said we reverse engineer back to the type of person who committed the

00:43:32.800 crime there's so many things so in that case victim choice they were random victims again

00:43:38.720 that goes along with the god complex it's not like he had a connection with these victims he just

00:43:43.760 wanted to take life indiscriminately and that again that gave us more and more information about him

00:43:50.160 every time he pulled the trigger we learned more about him and his behavior and every time he

00:43:54.960 communicated with us which we always try to encourage they act absolutely give much more information than

00:44:02.240 they think fascinating the the there's a there's a community that doesn't like fbi agents especially

00:44:08.480 the last five years because you guys have gotten a black eye the last five years but there is a need

00:44:13.440 for what you guys do the right agents are extremely necessary because these are things that regular

00:44:19.200 people on a day-to-day basis to put the connect the dots like that it's a very tough thing to do

00:44:24.320 that's why you guys are professionals well we're we're we're fortunate enough to have the national

00:44:29.200 center for the analysis of violent crime to get to study crime violent and sexual crime 24 hours a

00:44:35.280 day 365 and because of that we get to share that information with law enforcement across the country

00:44:41.120 and around the world and that is a privilege and an honor and i think if you look at the history of

00:44:46.240 the fbi yeah there have been some ups and downs and and and the the thing about the fbi though is

00:44:54.000 generally it does not get involved in politics the agents who work the investigations uh they do

00:45:01.760 their job irrespective of what's going on in the country or who what political party is there maybe

00:45:08.000 some of the upper echelon people might be influenced by it but certainly the people who are doing the

00:45:13.200 investigations and putting their lives on the line those people not an easy job doing it for the victims

00:45:19.360 not an easy job man no it's not an easy job you guys got so let's talk deception let's talk deception

00:45:24.400 so you know people are always fascinated by telling whether somebody's lying or not like

00:45:28.720 i think there's even channels on youtube where all they do is they sit there and they say look when he

00:45:34.080 did this he's lying look when he went like this he's lying look how he's trying to deceive you by making

00:45:40.240 doing everything you're supposed to do to act like he's nervous but he's acting he's not really like

00:45:44.640 that it's not really him there's there's there's a business for that there's books that are written

00:45:48.720 about this because absolutely people want to know this so obviously you've said it there is nothing

00:45:53.360 that's disputable like there's no you know but for the indisputable indisputable yeah unique thing

00:45:59.360 that can tell you somebody is lying you have to norm that person it's all individual have to norm

00:46:05.760 that person wow yeah it's people have their own idiosyncrasies yeah and some people are very nervous

00:46:13.600 in general and they get totally calm when they're lying some people are looking all over the place

00:46:18.960 and they'll look right in your eyes when they're lying there's there's a whole bunch of different

00:46:26.080 theories that we use we blend them together in the fbi we don't use one theory but there's fight or

00:46:31.200 flight because when people get really nervous they'll get fidgety because their body is pumping blood and

00:46:38.160 pumping adrenaline to their extremities so sometimes they'll fidget or their hands will go all over the

00:46:43.440 place they'll they'll fix their hair they'll they'll adjust themselves whatever it is but that is only one

00:46:48.800 aspect that you look at you have to spend time i told you earlier when we're doing interrogations

00:46:54.000 we tell people the minimum you should spend is four hours because the chances of you getting

00:47:01.760 an accurate and reliable confession increase 25 percent with each hour that you spend and those

00:47:08.560 four hours should be spent learning about that person getting as much information about them and

00:47:15.440 their behavior as possible because then when you put the hard questions to them then you after having

00:47:23.680 taken in all this information about the person then you will be able to notice the changes in their

00:47:28.880 behavior and those changes are the red flags those are the areas that you want to dive into further

00:47:34.960 but again a lot of people say micro expressions are absolutely a tell well in some cases they are

00:47:42.560 in some cases they are not um the more intelligent a person is the more micro expressions they'll have

00:47:51.200 the lesser intelligent people sometimes will will have no facial indications at all that they're lying

00:47:59.520 they they their facial expressions don't give away much at all but their behaviors or the words or

00:48:07.360 their language or how they use certain words or the changes in words it's a very complicated thing i used

00:48:14.240 to teach deception detection at the fbi academy uh believe me it's it's a months long course it's not

00:48:21.920 something i can just summarize in one day but i will tell you this in the fbi we actually believe that if

00:48:31.920 people if people are lying to you that there are going to be indications that they are lying but you have

00:48:42.800 to understand that individual person before you can ever hope to know if any person is actually lying

00:48:49.680 i love the four hour rule every hour 25 goes up you need four to get to the norm the more intelligent

00:48:58.320 the more signs they'll give you the less intelligent the less signs they'll give you

00:49:02.560 uh just out of curiosity and they may do impression management the intelligent people will give you what

00:49:09.280 they think you expect from a truthful person and that might be looking right into your eyes when

00:49:15.200 at the very point when they're lying and that you have to see that that's a change in their behavior

00:49:20.560 why did he stare in my eyes that time but all this other time he's telling me about his favorite team

00:49:25.120 where he goes to work how he drives to work you know what he drinks at night all these things and

00:49:32.000 he's just looking all over the place but when he said he wasn't there on the fourth he was looking

00:49:38.160 straight in my eyes now most people believe that gaze aversion looking away is an indicator of lying when

00:49:45.920 in that case it could be looking at you is the indicator so if you didn't norm that person you would never

00:49:51.840 know it and you would think he's lying about the wrong things but another really important thing to

00:49:57.360 prevent false confessions is to make sure that you never just take it at face value you see indications

00:50:04.400 of lying and you you dive in but the person could be lying about something totally different in other

00:50:11.840 words they they don't want to give you the app actual alibi because they were having an affair with

00:50:18.160 someone and they can't say i was at this motel with so and so because even in a homicide

00:50:25.840 investigation the last thing they want is their wife's anger they don't want to be called out on

00:50:33.280 the affair so they're they're lying about something but it's not the homicide that you're investigating so

00:50:40.720 you have to be incredibly careful once you get indicators of deception yeah those are the areas

00:50:46.480 you have to dive deeper into and get more details out that's insane to go look how how important you think

00:50:53.120 it is uh the president americans choose every four to eight years how important do i think the decision

00:51:00.480 is that for us i think it's a ping pong match i think it's a pendulum swing i think in the united

00:51:06.400 states of america we haven't yet figured out that middle of the road is the best way to go rather than

00:51:11.520 extreme here extreme there i would much rather see some coalition or something down the middle that didn't

00:51:18.800 cause you know extreme changes these four or eight years and then that's undone for the next four to

00:51:25.520 eight years uh it wastes money it wastes time and it wastes people's livelihoods and people's lives and

00:51:32.560 it weakens it weakens the the the foundation of what this country was founded on you know it does and i i do

00:51:39.360 believe that if if people i mean there are some countries that have have tripartee coalitions so that

00:51:47.440 everybody's represented i don't think that's a bad idea but you know it hasn't come here yet

00:51:53.440 but let's let's face it politics comes and goes the things i'm talking about the things that we're

00:51:59.680 discussing here these things have been developed over the last hundred plus here's where i was going

00:52:05.280 with this question where i was going with this question was you know one time i did a uh show uh you

00:52:11.120 know guys call me they want to do debate so one time i had uh alan dershowitz which i don't know if you

00:52:16.080 know who he is the of course i do okay so i had him debate robert kennedy robert's a good friend so

00:52:21.680 i had them too alan was saying if the government wants to mandate they can even though he disagrees

00:52:27.280 they can mandate and uh rfk saying there's no way in the world they can mandate these are both attorneys

00:52:33.200 one is the best environmental attorney the other one is you know you know who alan is so then i had

00:52:37.360 another guy that came and debated uh uh one was the director developmental from normal which they want

00:52:43.360 to legalize marijuana everywhere and the other one was a christian uh navy uh commander and they

00:52:49.440 came and they debated uh marijuana and on the bottom every time somebody told a lie we would

00:52:53.440 just go and or if it was green check with the facts below it right what do you think we can do

00:53:00.000 do you think presidential election 2023 we should have these guys lined up with lie detective tests and

00:53:06.160 every time they say something you see score behind them and the audience is like he's lying she's lying

00:53:11.120 how do you think we can improve the debates well unfortunately the polygraph is actually a tool

00:53:16.800 not a be-all and end-all sure it itself doesn't actually tell if somebody's lying i mean there has

00:53:22.720 to be a human being that interacts with it there are a number of things there are people that have

00:53:27.440 these stress analyzers and voice stress analyzers and things like that they think they can tell um again

00:53:34.400 how about a truth serum you you you like the truth serum yeah no but there no but there are

00:53:42.000 people who fail the polygraph because they're extremely honest and they're very they have this

00:53:49.600 sort of ingrained in them this fear of of doing something wrong and so they're very fidgety and and

00:53:56.720 nervous and they sweat a lot and it and it gives the appearance on a polygraph of lying there are other

00:54:03.040 people who when they're being asked the questions will because this is the thing our conscious mind

00:54:10.000 operates at about in thousands of a second we can make decisions and movements in thousands of a second

00:54:17.680 but our subconscious mind operates in trillions of a second 10 billion times faster wow and so while 0.98

00:54:24.240 we're being asked conscious questions subconsciously we're saying wow i'm glad i didn't do that when i was a

00:54:30.080 kid and and that is what comes out in your body actions and so your your brain can think about

00:54:38.080 things so much faster than your mouth can answer questions and so that's something that the polygraph

00:54:45.200 doesn't do yet now they'll eventually come up with brain scans that are that are that are showing really

00:54:51.120 incredible detail and i know they have some of that going on now i think technology will eventually

00:54:56.480 get a lot better at lie detecting but you have to always understand human beings make decisions in

00:55:04.960 the privacy of their brain and those decisions can affect how they outwardly express truth and lies

00:55:13.120 and when you know somebody best you i'm sure you have children when one of your kids a teenager comes home

00:55:20.400 late and they say you say where were you it will take you a fraction of a second maybe a thousandth of

00:55:27.600 a second to tell whether they're telling the truth or a lie why because you made that person you know

00:55:33.280 that person intimately you know everything about how they respond to you if law enforcement officers

00:55:39.200 can get get that level of detail when they're interrogating somebody they'll never have a problem

00:55:44.240 telling whether somebody's telling the truth or a lie unfortunately they have to do it in a much more

00:55:48.400 compressed way so preparation for any interview or interrogation is what's critical knowing that

00:55:55.920 person knowing as much about them as possible and drawing out as much more in the time you spend with

00:56:01.120 them those are the keys to actually getting truthful confessions so here's what i want to do since we

00:56:06.160 have you on i i want the audience to see your uh ability your gift what you see that we don't see i

00:56:12.160 want us to profile somebody okay okay and i was trying to have the guys pull up which one we were going to

00:56:17.120 do i can't use a clip from another channel it has to be like a c-span type of a thing where you know

00:56:23.200 it's it's uh what do you call it it's not a cnn or msnbc or fox because we can commentate on it i found a

00:56:29.920 recent one from two weeks ago and i'm curious to know what you say about this one here and and i'll

00:56:34.480 play it whatever comments you got on it you tell us now in this exchange to preface before the audience

00:56:39.760 sees it you know uh uh fauci gain of function rand paul is calling them out with nih all this

00:56:47.840 stuff the only feedback i want to get from you is when they're going back whatever feedback you give

00:56:51.440 us is great but fauci's reaction and rand paul's reaction and it will just listen to you so i'm going

00:56:57.920 to press play okay we'll see hopefully i can get something i don't expect you today to admit that you

00:57:02.320 approved of nih funding for gain of function research in wuhan but your repeated denials have worn thin

00:57:09.200 and a majority of americans frankly don't believe you even the nih now admits that eco health alliance

00:57:15.680 did perform experiments in wuhan that created viruses not found in nature that actually did gain in

00:57:21.840 lethality the facts are clear the nih did fund gain of function research in wuhan despite your

00:57:28.080 protestations you can deny it all you want but even the chinese authors of the paper in their paper admit

00:57:34.800 that viruses not found in nature were created and yes they gained in infectivity your persistent

00:57:42.320 denials though are not simply a stain on your reputation but are clear and present danger to

00:57:47.360 the country and to the world as professor kevin esfelt of mit has written gain of function research

00:57:54.640 looks like a gamble that civilization can't afford to risk and yet here we are again with you steadfast in

00:58:01.840 your denials why does it matter because gain of function research with laboratory created viruses

00:58:08.640 not found in nature could cause a pandemic even worse the next time we're suffering today from one

00:58:15.040 that has a mortality of approximately one percent they're experimenting with viruses that have

00:58:19.920 mortalities of between 15 and 50 percent yes our civilization could be at risk from one of these viruses

00:58:27.440 experiments that combine unknown viruses with known pandemic causing viruses are incredibly risky

00:58:34.960 experiments that combine unknown viruses with corona viruses that have as much as 50 percent mortality

00:58:41.040 could endanger civilization as we know it and here you sit unwilling to accept any responsibility for

00:58:48.160 the current pandemic and unwilling to take any steps to prevent gain of function research from

00:58:53.840 possibly unleashing an even more deadly virus you mislead the public by saying that the published viruses

00:59:00.800 could not be covered well exactly no one is alleging that no one is alleging that the published viruses

00:59:07.040 by the chinese are covered what we are saying is that this was risky type of research gain of function

00:59:14.320 research it was risky to share this with the with the chinese and that covid may have been created from a

00:59:20.240 not yet revealed virus we don't anticipate the chinese are going to reveal the virus if it came from their lab 0.95

00:59:27.680 you know that but you continue to mislead you continue to support nih money going to wuhan

00:59:33.520 you continue to say you trust the chinese scientist you appear to have learned nothing from this pandemic

00:59:39.920 will you today finally take some responsibility for funding gain of function research in wuhan

00:59:50.400 senator with all due respect i disagree with so many of the things that you've said

00:59:55.520 gain first of all gain of function is a very nebulous term we have spent not us but outside bodies a

01:00:04.400 considerable amount of effort to give a more precise definition to the type of research that is of

01:00:11.920 concern that might lead to a dangerous situation you are aware of that that is called p3 co we're aware that

01:00:20.880 you deleted gain of function from the nih website well i can get back to that a moment if we have time

01:00:27.360 but let's get back to the operating framework and guide rails of which we operate under and you have

01:00:34.480 ignored them the guidelines are very very clear that you have to be dealing with a pathogen that clearly

01:00:42.160 is shown and very likely to be highly transmissible in an uncontrollable way in humans and to have a

01:00:49.680 high degree you have a deposit so how does it feel so far he is very poised and calm and very

01:00:56.960 focused and what senator rand was doing was putting lots of words in his mouth in other words he was

01:01:05.280 he was quoting dr fauci over and over again he was telling dr fauci what dr fauci has done

01:01:13.680 bad you know that he's he's he's basically giving him all these kinds of negative things the of course

01:01:20.240 we're only seeing we don't have a constant camera on him which would have been nice but we're seeing

01:01:25.520 cutbacks to dr fauci and and he's basically placid yeah even the breathing when he answered at first i

01:01:32.960 don't know if you caught that his breathing was a little bit let me go back to it i wonder what

01:01:36.960 that means because these guys are getting ready yeah he he's definitely getting ready to to say

01:01:43.840 something i believe he's you're what you're seeing is controlled behavior in other words he probably

01:01:49.520 wants to say dude you're lying to me you are lying to the public you know a lot more than what you're

01:01:57.200 saying but fauci has to be composed he has to be professional if he if he gets in senator's face

01:02:06.160 he's going to look disrespectful and it's going to be used against him so i think what he was trying to do

01:02:11.840 was okay i'm just going to try to give this in a measured professional way and not respond negatively

01:02:19.440 to all the very bad things that you've just claimed about me so nothing so far seems suspicious from

01:02:25.760 fauci's side to you nothing nothing that they've shown me but again i haven't been seeing him the

01:02:31.440 whole time but all right let me go back to uh let me go back to here like what does this when he answers

01:02:36.640 and he's like take a look at this one here senator with all due respect i disagree with so many of the

01:02:42.320 things that you've said now first of all gain of function okay so pause it there senator all due

01:02:48.640 respect i just dealing with somebody who he had to take notes he wrote down some notes so he could

01:02:54.160 remember to make a particular point because as he opens there's so many things that you just said

01:02:59.680 that i disagree with so i think he wanted to make sure that he hit these particular points so

01:03:04.320 he moved the paper in front of him there's nothing about i i look at the totality of everything not

01:03:11.200 just how his hands move how his eyes move how his facial expressions change because there isn't much

01:03:16.640 in terms of facial expression change in here and again that's someone who is intelligent that's

01:03:22.080 someone who controls himself he he he almost took a little you know sort of like a deep breath before

01:03:28.880 you're about to sort of let loose but you want to hold back so let's go ahead let's see what's here

01:03:36.880 next because i'm going to go to this part hence that hence the word e p p p enhanced pathogens of

01:03:48.160 potential so when eco health alliance took the virus and combined it with wiv one and caused a

01:03:56.720 recombinant virus that doesn't exist in nature and it made mice sicker mice that had humanized cells

01:04:03.280 you're saying that that's not gain of function research according to the framework and guidelines so

01:04:08.960 what you're doing is defining away gain of function you're simply saying it doesn't exist because you

01:04:13.440 change the definition on the nih website this is terrible and you're you're completely trying to

01:04:19.280 escape the idea that we should do something about trying to prevent a pandemic from leaking from a lab

01:04:25.040 there's the preponderance of evidence now points towards this coming from the lab and what you've 0.96

01:04:29.680 done is change the definition on your website to try to cover your ass basically that's what you've 0.90

01:04:34.800 done you've changed the website to try to have a new definition that doesn't include the risky 0.84

01:04:39.600 research that's going on until you admit that it's risky we're not going to get anywhere you have

01:04:44.560 to admit that this research was risky the nih has now rebuked them your own agency has rebuked them

01:04:51.280 but the thing is is you're still unwilling to admit that they gained in function when they say they

01:04:55.360 became sicker they gained in lethality it's a new virus that's not gain of function according to the

01:05:02.400 definition that is currently operable you know senator let's make it clear for the people who are

01:05:08.480 listening the current definition was done over a two to three year period by outside bodies

01:05:16.560 including the ns abb two conferences by the national academy of science engineering and medicine on

01:05:24.400 december 2014 march 2016 we commissioned external risk benefit assessment and then on january of

01:05:35.440 2017 the office of science and technology policy of the white house issued the current policy and

01:05:43.520 coincidentally i have not changed any definition on the same day the nih said that yes there was a gain

01:05:50.400 of function in wuhan the same day the definition appeared the new definition to try to define away

01:05:56.560 what's going on in wuhan until you accept it until you expect accept responsibility we're not going to get

01:06:02.080 anywhere close to trying to prevent another lab leak of this dangerous sort of experiment you

01:06:06.640 won't admit that it's dangerous and for that lack of judgment i think it's time that you resign

01:06:11.040 thank you senator paul and i would like um to give the time to dr patch yeah well there were so many

01:06:16.480 things i'll pause right here presentation here i mean he this is a this is a man who's very frustrated by

01:06:23.600 the circumstance dr fauci is not able to get the words out that he hoped to say and he feels he you

01:06:31.760 can see now his level of frustration has has removed some of his composure and he's trying now to

01:06:39.840 actually get out the foundational statements that he believes will support his position rather than the

01:06:46.400 senators it's a it's a very difficult situation i know for a fact that in situations like this there are

01:06:52.240 many hearings that go on outside the uh the purview of the cameras that that people have done interviews

01:07:01.680 beforehand and a lot of of what is said is it's it's a show it's like a trial there's admissible

01:07:09.840 stuff and there's inadmissible stuff and unfortunately it's not an equally weighted situation senator and

01:07:18.400 sitting on the on the in the tall chairs uh has more power than than any witness that's going to be

01:07:24.640 sitting uh in front of them so i can see the stress coming out in dr fauci here and again i i would be

01:07:34.480 irresponsible to say that i know that that stress is because he's lying uh the stress can be come come

01:07:40.480 from many different angles uh i would like to spend more time with fauci and get to know him and get to

01:07:47.600 know what he's like under stress as well as whether or not he he um is capable of of of of lying and

01:08:01.760 being completely impervious to indicators of that because it's a possibility especially when somebody

01:08:08.320 is is intelligent clearly he is intelligent but you don't see what what you would generally see in

01:08:17.600 in a in a person who who is just panicking because they've been caught in a lot quote caught in a

01:08:25.600 lot did he look like he was panicking a little bit he looked like he was panicking a little bit to me i

01:08:29.840 don't know yeah well what i said was at the end he was definitely he definitely looked like he was

01:08:34.720 stressed but from what i've seen and again this is just my uh observation from what i've seen he was cut

01:08:43.200 off in the middle of his explanation he was he he resorted to reading the definition from a piece of

01:08:50.160 paper because he did not want to um get interrupted and not give that information out it's like i said

01:08:59.680 it's just it's a very difficult situation to be in but could he have uh funded this what was it called

01:09:10.160 something gain of function gain of function is could he have uh knowingly funded gain of function

01:09:18.800 research and uh like the senator said they changed the definition in the process uh it's it's possible

01:09:26.400 i mean it's i wouldn't rule it out but again i i don't feel like i have enough information to tell you

01:09:33.520 that that is what he's getting stressed about i can tell you he's getting stressed but i can also come

01:09:40.000 up with two different possibilities of why he's stressed yeah you know the situation or because

01:09:45.040 he's lying you know the the the challenge is you know at first when they introduced this guy i mean

01:09:50.720 nobody knew him except for the people that studied it you know they knew he was part of the aids

01:09:54.960 pandemic back in the 80s and you know uh where he has been around he's been doing this for a while

01:10:00.560 then all of a sudden it's like the trust in the guy keeps going lower than one day john stewart comes out

01:10:04.960 on uh stephen colbert's show and he says look why can't we go investigate the fact that this was

01:10:11.200 man-made or not in china why is that such a no-no why can't we talk about it and that caused a big 0.94

01:10:16.960 frenzy in the media where everybody started talking and saying maybe we ought to find that because

01:10:20.480 the world stopped let's face a lot of kids didn't go to school they were homeschooling we don't know

01:10:24.480 the residual effects of this 5 10 15 20 years from now but everybody was somehow directly or indirectly

01:10:29.600 affected by it i'm just curious when you see these things um and see signs of it because he looked

01:10:36.560 very very nervous to me like you know when you showed that one clip of nixon and nixon says you

01:10:43.280 know i'm not a crook like if there's anybody who's not supposed to say that's a president he says i have

01:10:48.240 so much confidence that if you want to investigate this you know that whole thing you were uh highlighting

01:10:52.720 and then and then uh the way clinton put it which i have had no sexual relation there is there is no

01:11:00.480 sexual relationship right now this second i am yeah i am not having sex right now i'm not right yeah so 0.57

01:11:08.960 you know these guys are such professionals with wordsmithing so you don't necessarily know but the

01:11:14.400 reality is you know if uh anthony fauci gets recognized by guardian as the sexiest man of life maybe

01:11:20.560 we ought to hold him accountable for what decisions he's made on what we need to do with this because

01:11:25.120 i don't know if you're laughing or not he was really recognized the sexiest man alive

01:11:28.720 are you serious i'm actually being dead serious you you didn't know about this he was well

01:11:34.480 no i didn't i didn't know about that you know you just heard from the sexiest man alive that's what

01:11:39.680 you just gives me hope i mean you know

01:11:41.920 i we should we should go tweet guardian and say hey can we make the top 10 list i don't know

01:11:52.480 put a list for it but okay uh uh final thoughts here i know you uh uh run a podcast as well called

01:11:59.840 best case worst case and you guys sit there and actually bring people in and you go through different

01:12:05.120 cases tell us a little about the podcast you guys run so yeah francy hakes and i francy was a former

01:12:11.040 state and federal prosecutor and she and i interview cops and lawyers and related law enforcement

01:12:17.680 professionals about the best case and the worst case of their career the point is we want to show

01:12:23.440 people in the public what the spectrum and the continuum of cases is like for a law enforcement

01:12:31.120 officer street cops detectives prosecutors defense attorneys everybody in that process

01:12:37.120 we haven't yet interviewed a judge we'd love to but everybody in that process is affected by the

01:12:44.000 cases that come before them and there are people who have literally spent two three four decades

01:12:50.800 working on a case to ultimately resolve it because they couldn't let it go and some of these cases

01:12:58.240 really affect people i know that they have affected me even though i developed a clinical detachment

01:13:05.440 while i'm working on the case while i'm analyzing a case of of you know brutality or or sexual

01:13:12.560 victimization i have to detach clinically while i'm doing it but i'm still a human being and i understand

01:13:20.800 what went that person went through and i have a tremendous amount of empathy and and many law enforcement

01:13:26.240 officers carry around all this pain and suffering that they are exposed to and it can ruin lives and

01:13:34.320 marriages you know on the part of law enforcement officers and especially when the public is is sort of

01:13:40.960 geared up against them and and they still are out there risking their lives every day to try to keep the

01:13:48.880 peace and this is the goal of best case worst case to show how who these people are that choose a life of

01:13:57.280 law enforcement and how their careers can go from one extreme of of success to another extreme of of

01:14:06.880 just horrific failure well we're going to put the link below to your podcast i love the name best case

01:14:13.520 worst case like i said earlier uh from watching your videos being a great teacher man listening to you

01:14:19.600 i get smarter about your world of how you do what you do all aspects of it i appreciate you for taking

01:14:26.080 the time and being a guest on value tainment by the way some tells me if you and your uh co-host were to

01:14:32.800 take a little bit more time to go deeper and study more of the fauci ran paul back and forth they've had

01:14:38.880 like six rounds if this was a rocky they're on rocky 12 already i mean they've gone back and forth so

01:14:44.400 there's so much content for you to come up to your four hour number to increase the 25 rate i think if

01:14:50.800 you did that i think you may get a few million downloads of that episode because the world is

01:14:55.360 very curious so all right well i will i will definitely tell francy about your suggestion and

01:15:01.200 and we'll do that because one of the things is that francy and i we have this sort of brother

01:15:06.240 sister kind of situation where we kind of you know sort of uh you know gig each other and poke

01:15:13.120 poke poke at each other and and we have very different ways of looking at things so it would

01:15:18.880 be great it would be great i tell you a matter of fact if you guys do that and it's a long form i

01:15:24.160 would share it with everybody a matter of fact we may even bring both of you guys in for a live

01:15:29.680 podcast and share it with everybody and drive even more people to your podcast so but i'd be curious

01:15:34.560 be very curious i'm writing it down right now jim the moment you guys get a text us let us know we'll

01:15:39.840 we'll uh we'll follow up with you guys on that but jim once again appreciate your time sincerely

01:15:44.080 i really enjoyed it thank you thank you so much for having me and take care anytime thank you so

01:15:48.160 do you feel like you're qualified now to be an fbi agent maybe at least go apply for what an

01:15:51.840 interesting way of how they detect everything and what they do right i was fascinated by it

01:15:55.840 if you enjoyed it as much as i did give it a thumbs up and uh subscribe to the channel

01:15:59.520 two other interviews for you heard me talk a lot about paul maleri from uk if you've never seen a

01:16:04.480 malori click over here to watch the interview the other one is an interview i did with former

01:16:09.040 insider fbi agent donnie barasco aka joe pistone it's got like five million views if you've never

01:16:15.120 seen that absolutely fascinating click here take care everybody bye

Valuetainment - December 01, 2021

FBI Agent Explains How To Detect Deception & Criminal Profiling

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