Valuetainment

00:00:00.000 The FBI is insidiously powerful. I don't care if it means I die. What's going on in the FBI lab

00:00:07.440 has got to be stopped. Is it intentional that you don't want to have a lot of limelight and you don't

00:00:12.420 want people to see your story? Is that a kind of a intentional thing on your end? Patrick, the issue

00:00:16.260 is not me. The issue is human rights violations. The issue is civil rights violations. The issue

00:00:21.720 is truth in our justice system. What involvement did you have in the World Trade Center bombing

00:00:26.460 case? That was a big bomb. The Pan Am 103. I was in the O.J. Simpson trial. I saw a lot of things that

00:00:33.500 were happening that were bad. Wait, let me let me get this straight. Has it always been where FBI has

00:00:38.360 been more powerful than the president? Until they met Mr. Trump. Then they met themselves. Joe Biden

00:00:43.780 did not want to get mixed up with upsetting the FBI. Why do you think that is? J. Edgar Hoover was a very

00:00:49.420 powerful man and his legacy is one of blackmail. They are absolutely terrified of the boogeyman and

00:00:56.300 the boogeyman is you. It's the media. Is there still a inspiration? Is there still a fire or a chip on

00:01:01.920 your shoulder to say what's wrong is wrong? I want to be able to go expose it today. Are you kind of

00:01:06.080 over it? I'm moving on. This is my country and I'm not giving it away to thugs, period. Define

00:01:12.380 thugs. What I saw at the FBI.

00:01:24.760 My guest today is someone that if you Google his name, you're going to find articles. You're not

00:01:30.420 going to find a lot of stuff on him. Let's just say he's not the most liked guy for some of the stuff

00:01:35.760 that he did the right thing, but he's not the most liked guy for some of the stuff he did. But let me

00:01:39.640 kind of share with you his resume. PhD from Duke University with postdoc from Texas A&M. Three

00:01:47.180 tour veteran of Vietnam War. Youngest recipient of the Navy Medal of Heroism. And it doesn't stop

00:01:55.340 there. America's first successful FBI whistleblower. And he changed the U.S. criminal justice system

00:02:03.700 forever. My guest today is Frederick Whitehurst. Fred, how are you? I'm here. Nobody shot me yet.

00:02:12.600 How are you hiding? Like how, you know, you go through the story. Some of the stuff you've done

00:02:17.780 is, which we'll get into here in a minute, but is it intentional that you don't want to have a lot

00:02:22.740 of limelight and you don't want people to see your story? Is that a kind of a intentional thing on your

00:02:26.560 footprint? Patrick, the issue is not me. You know, I have asked not to be, I'm not the highlight,

00:02:34.700 you know, and I shouldn't be. The issue is human rights violations. The issue is civil rights

00:02:40.380 violations. The issue is truth in our justice system. The issue is the strength of this nation.

00:02:47.080 I'm just a brick in a wall and I choose to be a brick in a wall. Those folks who want to be the wall,

00:02:53.420 they make things unsafe for all of us because when they fall, the whole wall falls. Do you understand

00:03:02.480 the analogy? No question about it. Sure. No question about it. Have you always had this,

00:03:08.100 because you have this, you have this aura about yourself where there are certain values and

00:03:14.000 principles no one can break you up, meaning you're not going to be breaking a certain set of values and

00:03:21.620 principles that you live by? Have you always been this kind of a true believer or did some event

00:03:26.740 take place in your life where you became a true believer? No, I think I was raised by two very

00:03:34.000 strong parents, a father who was a naval officer, a mother who was a very outspoken social activist.

00:03:41.960 And they instilled in me, my father instilled in me, you call a spade a spade. My mother instilled in me

00:03:47.760 the concern for civil rights, for truth, that sort of thing. But I gradually, if you will, hardened the

00:03:58.220 metal in combat in Vietnam. I saw a lot of things in Vietnam that were wrong. And then, you know, of course,

00:04:04.880 in the FBI, that story is, you know, you can look it up. I saw things that were wrong. I tried to understand

00:04:11.860 them. It didn't, it, I never could, you know, I did a lot of things to understand. What am I seeing?

00:04:20.620 What am I, what am I seeing wrong? How am I, how am I wrong? But you say, have I always been that way?

00:04:27.260 I don't, I don't know how to put that. I've been me. And I've, I've matured in, in,

00:04:35.560 into hardened steel, if you will. Hey, it's, it's wrong. Tell me why I'm wrong, because I think it's

00:04:45.220 wrong. Yeah, it's very obvious to feel that energy from you. But by the way, politically,

00:04:50.200 were your mom and dad both on the same side politically?

00:04:57.500 You know, I don't know that politics was, was not an issue, not the thing that in my family,

00:05:04.320 I have three brothers, and we're divided, um, right down the center, you know, some of us like

00:05:12.180 me are conservative, uh, Republicans, and some of them, like a couple of my brothers are, are very

00:05:18.520 liberal, um, uh, Democrats, if you will. So your, so your parents kind of empowered you to, to be free

00:05:26.040 thinkers and think for yourself. They never imposed their political beliefs onto you guys, but they did

00:05:32.180 impose their values and principles onto you. Yes, that's correct. Okay. Okay. So, so right after

00:05:38.460 school, by the way, if I'm in high school with you, who was Fred in high school? I'm curious.

00:05:42.460 Fred was the kid that worked in the lunchroom. You know, um, I got there at five 30 in the morning.

00:05:48.920 Um, I went to work. I wasn't, uh, I wasn't one of the popular kids. Um, I didn't go to dances. I

00:05:57.740 didn't really go to football games. There were things that interested me that those things would

00:06:02.540 get in the way of such as I wanted to sail on boats. I wanted to build, rebuild machines. I

00:06:10.500 wanted to landscape. I wanted to work my, the work ethic in my family was something that left us

00:06:16.320 work is finer than, than fine spaghetti, if you will. I mean, it's, you know, uh, you wake up in

00:06:22.400 the morning and say, what am I going to do today? And the last thing my wife and I say at night is

00:06:26.380 what did we accomplish today? Even though I'm 73 years old, I got to do, I got to accomplish

00:06:31.520 something in my day. You're 73 years old. Yes. Good for you. What kind of skin products do you use?

00:06:38.800 I mean, that's the first thing my wife would ask you, like, what do you, are you like a Estee 0.99

00:06:43.300 Lauder or a Mac guy? Because you, you, some kind of skin products. You, you, you got the right side.

00:06:48.640 I mean, if you look at the backside, the hair is falling out. I've turned gray in the last five

00:06:52.100 years. So no skin products. Yeah. Listen, you, you, you, you look like a Tom selects a brother.

00:06:58.180 I mean, we talked about it earlier. You got the voice, you got the mustache, you got the look,

00:07:01.220 you, you look like you were one decision away from being in Hollywood. If you wanted to go

00:07:05.200 that direction. Well, Tom wants to be like me, but he can't quite get there.

00:07:12.480 So, so let's go back. So you're 18, you're like sailing, you're like building machines. That's

00:07:17.080 what you're doing. Did you go in the military simply because Pops was a Navy SEAL Navy officer?

00:07:22.960 I think you said he was a Navy officer. Did you go in because you just wanted to serve

00:07:25.840 your country? You know, um, I went into the U S army on a whim. Um, I know people that went

00:07:34.800 into the people's liberation army in Vietnam. Uh, the good friends that belong to the people

00:07:40.160 liberation army. That means the army of North Vietnam at the time. Um, they went as a result 0.80

00:07:45.880 of patriotism. Me, I woke up one morning, I was trying to accomplish a major in math,

00:07:52.000 chemistry and physics in college. I burned out. I said, I'm leaving. I left. I went to

00:07:56.980 New York city. The next morning I woke up, I joined the U S army. When they asked me, what

00:08:01.880 do you want to do? I said, I want to go to Vietnam and kill communists. And that's what 0.66

00:08:05.180 I told them every time, you know, I'm 73. I grew up in the McCarthy age, you know? And, 0.98

00:08:12.060 um, at the time I believed what, um, mad men told me, I believed in the domino theory. And

00:08:19.340 I believe that, you know, I needed to protect my nation from whatever that meant. Um, so when

00:08:26.640 you say a matter of patriotism, um, for me, um, I wish I were that kind of a patriot. I,

00:08:34.160 I went, um, one morning I was a student of science and math. The next morning I was the

00:08:40.140 United States army recruit. And, and how old were you when you got your Navy a medal of

00:08:45.740 heroism? Oh, well, I was at the time, the youngest man in Naval history received the Navy Marine

00:08:51.340 Coral medal. I was 17. Um, my first day in the United States Naval Reserve, I jumped in

00:08:57.160 a lake and save one guy from drowning and try to save another and lost him and, uh, broke

00:09:02.180 through ice to get into where the car had gone over this ledge and sunk in the water. But,

00:09:07.660 um, yeah, it was, um, it was a bad day. It was the 15th of January, 1965. So I was in the

00:09:13.980 Naval Reserve. Um, and I stayed in the Naval Reserve for about 18 months, but I had a tendency

00:09:20.320 back then to walk in my sleep and you can't walk in your sleep and being on a United States

00:09:24.880 Navy, you walk overboard. They don't know you're overboard until you're lost. So they gave me

00:09:30.240 an honorable, um, discharge and, um, Oh, three years later, I went to New York city to join

00:09:38.360 the, the U S army. And they said, have you been in the military before? And I said, Nope,

00:09:43.560 haven't been in the military before. I was 20 at that time. They didn't find out I'd been in

00:09:48.460 the military till I was in Vietnam for six months and, um, and went out of the infantry

00:09:53.760 into military intelligence. You're kidding me. So, so let me, so you get your honorable

00:09:58.520 discharge after getting your medal of, uh, uh, Navy medal of heroism at 17 for jumping

00:10:04.140 out of a, uh, uh, helicopter to go save somebody. And then jump out of a helicopter. I swam off

00:10:10.080 ashore. You swam off ashore and you saved one and you lost one. Yes. And, and, and you said

00:10:16.420 January 15 is, uh, I think it's a January 15, 19, January 15, 1965. Yeah. 1965. And then you go to

00:10:24.460 the army, you go from infantry to military intelligence. How did that happen to go from

00:10:30.540 infantry to MI? I saw things happening in the field that I disagreed with such as, such as war crimes,

00:10:38.900 you know, people being harmed that shouldn't. And, um, I, uh, found myself in an incident after

00:10:47.060 about six months where I, I, a young boy was being, um, brutally bridges, brutalized by six soldiers.

00:10:55.880 And I just said, you know, I quit. I'm, I don't belong to this military. I'm not going to be part of

00:11:00.720 this. And the helicopter came in and I got on it and I went to the rear and, and, uh, a couple of MPs

00:11:07.460 met me and put handcuffs on me and carried me over to the major who tried to talk me out of reporting

00:11:12.180 the, uh, the issues. And then they took me to the colonel who he tried to talk me out of it.

00:11:18.880 And, um, I wasn't going to be talked out of it. You're not going to do that. We're, you know,

00:11:23.300 we're the United States army. We're not, uh, Bashi Bazook of the Ottoman empire. We're the United

00:11:30.620 States army. Well, he said, these things happen. And by the way, you can't go back to the field in my

00:11:35.540 battalion because you're going to get shot in the back of the head by your own troops.

00:11:38.800 What do you want to do? So he offered me a couple of alternatives and, and, um, the, uh,

00:11:45.680 military intelligence detachment down at, um, Duc Faux in Quang Nha province, um, needed me down

00:11:52.260 there. So I went down, not speaking Vietnamese. I learned a little Vietnamese when I was in the field,

00:11:57.320 but, um, but, uh, went down there and, and stayed with them for two and a half years.

00:12:02.900 So you never ended up reporting it or he, the, the, so no, I, I reported it.

00:12:08.140 What happened to the soldiers that, uh, you reported? Um, what I understand was there were

00:12:12.660 six Marines and they were, um, they got what's called an article 15. That's, um, a slap on the

00:12:19.560 hand. Yeah. It's nothing. Um, you know, they permanently destroyed that 14, 13 year old kid,

00:12:24.860 but, um, you know, it's not an excuse that it was wartime when that visually stay with you

00:12:32.760 for the rest of your life or no. So what is, is that visual of what they did to that 13,

00:12:37.720 14 year old kid? I have a, I have a, a horrible trait of remembering things vividly. And, um,

00:12:46.040 you know, I mean, from, from all of my life and yes, I, I know what they did to that kid.

00:12:51.680 And I remember getting on the helicopter. I remember the warrant officer telling me to get

00:12:55.880 off of his helicopter with, um, words, we won't speak on this interview and me just saying,

00:13:01.840 no, and reaching for my 45 and okay. Okay. Just settle down. We'll take you to the rear time. I

00:13:07.180 got off the helicopter. I put my 45 on the ground and, um, and a couple of MPs came over and, um,

00:13:15.180 and they put handcuffs on me and took me to major's office. Well, office tent, whatever. But, um,

00:13:21.180 what was happening was wrong. And I don't know, Patrick, I don't know how not to do something.

00:13:29.620 You know, I'm, I'm, it's going on. It can't go on. I'm going to try and figure out why I'm wrong.

00:13:37.020 I'm not going to denigrate people or, or look down on them, but what you're doing is wrong.

00:13:42.480 In the United States military, in the Ameri-Cal division in Vietnam, um, you know, the My Lai

00:13:48.060 massacre. Well, I got there a year after the My Lai massacre in the same unit, in the same area.

00:13:53.840 And I saw a lot of things that were happening that were bad. They were, they were illegal or

00:14:00.460 they were just bad. And so my concept of becoming an interrogator of prisoners of war was, okay,

00:14:07.560 somebody is going to come in and they're going to tell me about this stuff. And I'm going to raise

00:14:10.620 cane. I'm not going to tell the U S media about it, but I'm going to raise cane so that people will say,

00:14:15.540 okay, don't, don't send it back there. We got a problem back there. And, um,

00:14:21.040 So would you interrogating people at the time? Was that part of your job?

00:14:23.760 Yeah, I was a prisoner of war interrogator.

00:14:25.700 And what was it? What was your approach? Because back then there was not a lot of regulations,

00:14:29.100 you know, it was a, it was a different time than it is today. What was your approach to interrogating?

00:14:35.200 Well, what you had was starving soldiers brought down from the North who didn't want to be there.

00:14:43.400 They had no idea. They didn't speak the language that we spoke. Uh, they were terrified. Um,

00:14:51.060 you could feed them, you could clap them on the shoulder. You could treat them nicely.

00:14:57.120 They weren't being treated nicely by their own political officers. They were, they were

00:15:02.060 starving to death. They were up in the, in the Hills. We cut off the rice lines. We put napalm all over

00:15:09.680 the mountains to get rid of the foliage. Um, they were, they were very easily convinced to say

00:15:16.580 there were some hardcore soldiers that were never going to talk, but you know, in two and a half

00:15:22.620 years, I think, uh, I probably saw two or three of those. What was the difference between your first

00:15:29.080 tour, your second tour and your third tour? Not a thing. Really? Not a thing. Um, I got there into

00:15:37.120 the AmeriCal division in March of 1969 and left out of the AmeriCal division in, um, April of 19,

00:15:49.160 six, seven, 1872. Three years. Three years. Yes. I went home. I went home every six months.

00:15:56.900 Okay. When you extended time in country, they give you a one month leave to think it over.

00:16:02.360 And I'd come back from the one month leave and I'd go right into the headquarters and I'd say,

00:16:07.560 okay, I want another six months, which would give me another full year. And they knew when I got off

00:16:12.220 the plane, I was going to come up and sign up for another six months. So I had another full year.

00:16:17.000 Got it. I, I, I saw, I wasn't an officer. I was an enlisted man. I was a specialist five. And I saw,

00:16:25.780 I'm going to go home and pick up cigarette butts for some young ROTC, you know, officer who's going

00:16:33.580 to harass me and whatever I need to be. If I'm a combat soldier, I need to be in combat

00:16:38.220 and I need to be with combat units. And so I just stayed out there for three years.

00:16:44.900 And what kind of reputation did you end up building after what you did when you reported

00:16:50.700 those guys, those Marines, the six Marines, what reputation did you have during those three years?

00:16:54.660 You know, there was a guy that came one time and I picked him up off the helicopter pad and

00:17:01.340 I brought him to the unit and I helped him with his baggage. And, um, we got to his, his tent,

00:17:09.020 you know, he did a, uh, whatever bag and I carried it and we got to go in the tent. He said, well,

00:17:15.840 you're a nice guy. They told me back at headquarters, you're a real son of a bitch.

00:17:21.800 That's your reputation. You had, well, I'm a nice guy. I'm a nice guy, but don't, don't pull that

00:17:30.360 stuff. Don't, you know, this is the United States army and, and that's real. That's not a concept.

00:17:38.300 That's not a idealistic thing. This is the United States army and we're going to act like the United

00:17:46.700 States army. And you know, that sounds maybe unrealistic of me. I think armies win when they

00:17:53.500 fight ethically, but you know, war messes people up because you have to establish too often your own

00:18:05.400 morality. You have to decide them or them. And it's pretty much an everyday thing.

00:18:12.940 Um, Fred, you could, you get out of the army. You said you do three years there. Do you fully

00:18:17.260 get out or do you still stay in the military afterwards? No, I got out. You're out. Okay.

00:18:21.620 So when you got out, so your opinion of Vietnam war, when you first went in, when you first got out

00:18:28.100 and now in 2020, when I went in, I went to Vietnam to kill communists. When I got there,

00:18:35.360 I found four peasants. I found as a prisoner warrantator, interrogated the people I was

00:18:41.020 interviewing were just people just like me. They had been conscripted, brought down South.

00:18:48.600 Well, they, they had a reason for fighting. Most American soldiers didn't want to be there.

00:18:54.960 But I got to the point while I was in Vietnam of saying, I need to do this fight. It was a foolish

00:19:01.680 concept, but I need to fight this just as hard as I can. I need to win this war. So this will stop.

00:19:08.260 Of course you couldn't win the war. The United States would never have won the Vietnam war.

00:19:12.500 And okay. So when I came home, I ran away, Patrick, and I hid, I hid in academia for 10 years.

00:19:22.800 I finished my undergraduate degree in chemistry. I went to Duke. I worked in a, in an area of

00:19:29.900 chemistry called quantum chemistry. It's all theoretical, mathematical, um, sort of when you

00:19:37.320 hear people talk about quantum physics, well, okay, quantum chemistry. And then, um, uh, I came out of

00:19:44.440 that and I came out of a postdoctoral fellowship, realizing that I could not be an academic. I had

00:19:51.680 to go back to war. It's almost like being an addict. I have to do something that means something every

00:19:59.220 day, rather than a long-term. I'm a simple man. I want to see results every day. I want to,

00:20:06.660 I want to make a difference every day. And so I joined the FBI, took me 18 months to get in,

00:20:13.460 but I joined the FBI. You know, there's something very inspirational about your mindset. I got to tell

00:20:19.180 you, there's something very, very inspirational about my, about your mindset. And you're not trying

00:20:23.760 to be motivational. You're just explaining who you are. You know, for you to say, I want to be able

00:20:28.200 to get results on a daily basis. I had to go back out to be, I'm a simple man. I had to figure out a

00:20:32.560 way to get results. That's a, that's a very, you know, uh, uh, uh, common sense way of explaining

00:20:39.540 how you want to bring value to a nation where you want to be someone that's given back. It's, uh,

00:20:45.380 it's, it's, it may be simple, but this is coming from a quantum chemist. So it's not like you're,

00:20:50.560 you got to, you don't have a simple brain. You don't have a simple mind. You don't have a simple

00:20:53.880 way of processing things, but your expectation is pretty simple. So you go into the FBI,

00:20:58.040 when you go into the FBI, 18 months later, what, what's now your goal? The first one was,

00:21:03.760 I want to kill commies. What do you want to do now? Oh, well, darn. I applied to work for the CIA

00:21:11.340 before I applied to work for the FBI. And, um, and I love those guys. They try to find out if I was,

00:21:19.020 if I still had a chip on my shoulder from Vietnam and I got an interview with a guy hooked up to a

00:21:23.900 polygraph and he started insulting my Vietnam service. And so I reached across the desk at him.

00:21:30.340 That was the fourth interview. They thanked me for the interview and I got back down to Texas and I

00:21:37.520 never heard from him again, but during the interview process, um, I don't worry. I didn't

00:21:42.980 assault the guy at Langley. Okay. But, um, during the interview process, a friend of mine who worked

00:21:49.380 on his doctorate at Duke, um, was working for the FBI crime lab. And he said, you ought to come over

00:21:54.000 here. You can have all the toys you want and you can do good things with all the toys you want.

00:21:58.620 So I went over and I went through the lab and oh my gosh. And, and Dennis told me, he said,

00:22:04.120 you can take on the, the biggest, most expensive problems that's, that satisfy the objectives of this

00:22:14.460 organization and have unlimited funding and unlimited, um, whatever. I mean, it's at the

00:22:21.020 peak of the pyramid of the tax structure of this country. And that was beautiful. And so I went back

00:22:28.680 down to Texas and I applied to the FBI and I just wanted to be a scientist. I wasn't interested in

00:22:35.120 being an FBI agent. I want to be a scientist, but a guy came out of the Houston office and he came over

00:22:42.880 and to recruit me. And he explained to me that at that time, this way it was, if you weren't a

00:22:48.120 scientist at the FBI, you're a second-class citizen. You could move forward up the ladder better if you

00:22:55.540 were, you know, and get things done if you were a, uh, if you were a badged agent. So shucks, I didn't

00:23:03.440 want to carry a gun again. You know, I carried a gun. I took lives with guns. I am not a gun person,

00:23:09.260 but I, um, I applied to go to the academy and, um, it took 18 months to, to get into my class,

00:23:22.920 uh, 1982 classroom class, excuse me, three, 82, three was my class at the academy. And, uh, boy, I,

00:23:32.460 I walked in there and I was on cloud nine, you know, when, when you're, when you're in that

00:23:38.920 environment, you get full of hot air. You are someone, you ain't nobody, you know, you're just

00:23:46.120 another joke on the road with a doggone gun on your hip and a piece of, of gold-plated metal in

00:23:52.740 your pocket, but you are someone, do you know? And, um, I spent the time at the academy,

00:23:59.620 very much dedicated to the academy. And, um, then they sent me down to the Houston field office as a

00:24:07.620 new agent. And will you, is that 86? No, that's 1982. That's 1982. I came in to go into the academy

00:24:18.160 on the 22nd of February. I got out of the academy on the 6th of June. Um, and I got out of the field,

00:24:27.440 the 6th of June of 82. I got out of the field. I went to the Sacramento field. I mean, the Houston

00:24:33.540 field office, the Sacramento field office had been the Los Angeles field office in four years.

00:24:38.700 And then I transferred to the, or they transferred me to the lab on the 6th of June, 86.

00:24:45.880 Is that when you became the supervisory special agent, uh, from 86 to 98 at the lab?

00:24:52.480 Well, actually what I was doing there, I spent the first year in training.

00:24:58.620 And, um, after the first, after 13 months, then I, uh, I, I spent, I think about a year before I was

00:25:09.480 a supervisory special agent at the lab.

00:25:12.440 What, what, what are some of the assignments you had at that time that we would know about,

00:25:16.360 or there were some big assignments you worked on? Because if I'm looking at that time, 82, you're,

00:25:21.960 you're Reagan, uh, senior, and you got a little bit of Clinton. That's when you were in.

00:25:27.760 I got a lot of Clinton. I sued him in one.

00:25:30.380 You sued Clinton at one for like one and a half million or some number like that.

00:25:34.100 Well, I didn't sue him for the money. I sued him because, uh, I wanted to implement the

00:25:39.440 Whistleblower Protection Act, which was, which was federal law. I wanted to implement it into the

00:25:46.760 Department of Justice and forcing, we wanted to force him with a writ of mandamus to, to say,

00:25:52.680 Department of Justice, you got to obey federal law, which is bizarre, but that's where we were.

00:25:56.560 But, um, the kinds of cases I worked on initially were, it's low level fugitive cases, extortion cases,

00:26:05.080 um, bank robberies, that kind of thing. That was in the field. I was in the field in Houston for six

00:26:12.280 months, went to the Chico, California, where I did, um, mostly narcotics investigations, but, um,

00:26:20.600 also bank robberies and fugitives. Then I went down to Los Angeles for two years. I did, um,

00:26:27.560 oh, in 84, I got there. And for two years I did, um, narcotics investigations. And then I went to

00:26:34.960 the lab and in the lab. Oh, I mean, the cases you would have heard about were, um, the first World

00:26:43.040 Trade Center bombing case, the Pan Am 103 case. Oh, let me see. There were just a bunch of, I was in

00:26:52.220 the OJ Simpson trial, but I, I was there kicking and screaming. I didn't work the case, but I reported

00:26:59.300 issues in the case and the defense picked up on it. Um, oh, goodness. What, what happened with the

00:27:08.760 world? What, what, what involvement did you have in the World Trade Center bombing case?

00:27:13.100 That was the 93 bombing. What happened was, um, I went to New York city and set up a, an explosive 0.73

00:27:22.840 residue analysis testing laboratory in the NYPD, New York police department, um, academy. And we were

00:27:31.260 having to look through 40,000 tons of rubble. That was a big bomb, 40,000 tons of rubble, trying to

00:27:37.880 figure out what kind of the explosive it was. And that went on for 12 days. And we were sleeping

00:27:45.020 two hours a night for 12 days. And you can't do that and continue to function. And, um, then the lab

00:27:52.700 became contaminated. And so we had to move evidence down to FBI headquarters. And so I, I worked

00:28:00.700 on that. I worked on the, the Avianca 203 bombing case where the, um, a fellow named Dandani Munoz

00:28:10.340 Mosquero was accused of blowing up Avianca 203. And I worked on the residue from that case and

00:28:18.380 I'm still working on that case. Um, let me see the Pan Am 103. I was over in, in England

00:28:28.140 on that, did some of that work.

00:28:30.380 The, the 1993 case, is that the one where you were, uh, you were responsible for securing

00:28:36.380 a crime scene and then which led to, uh, later on, uh, you saw the forensic misconduct, which

00:28:42.960 later on you ended up, uh, exposing. Is that kind of how the whole thing got started?

00:28:50.440 No. Um, my training agent at the laboratory, um, was, I was there 90 days when he was telling

00:29:01.360 me how to commit perjury in court. And I was very upset with that. And his work product was sloppy

00:29:06.040 and I was very upset with that. And so I started going through my chain of command. The guys around

00:29:12.320 me said they'd try to do something about it for years and the command didn't do anything about it

00:29:16.580 because he'd become a big liability for the lab. And, um, I, I, I didn't go outside initially.

00:29:25.860 Um, I was upset that, you know, if you've done it there, maybe if you've committed perjury in one

00:29:33.300 case, maybe you've done it in another. And by the way, he never did commit the perjury. He just,

00:29:37.540 that was part of his training. You know, that was part of what he told me. And we were required to

00:29:43.280 report any, any indication of misconduct by FBI management, FBI management, but they didn't want

00:29:49.600 it reported. They just wanted to say, you need a report. And executive order required to report

00:29:55.980 fraud, waste, abuse, and corruption to the appropriate authority. And so I, uh, I said, okay,

00:30:03.120 well, here it is. And the appropriate authority initially was a unit chief. Then it was an

00:30:09.560 assistant section chief. Then it was a section chief. Then it was a deputy, uh, director of the

00:30:14.720 lab. Then it was the lab director. Then it was, um, let me see who was it then? Um, oh yes. I,

00:30:26.260 after I got nobody doing anything then, then I wrote a letter to Joe Biden. Okay. When he was,

00:30:32.260 he was, uh, head of the Senate judiciary committee and Patrick, this is a neat, a neat kind of a,

00:30:38.880 of an anecdote story. I got a letter back. I wrote it clearly as an FBI agent. I got a letter back

00:30:45.340 and I'm sure it was a staffer. He didn't come from Biden. He wouldn't, you know, he didn't have time

00:30:49.140 for that, but I got a letter back that said as a, as a federal prisoner, I should refer such issues to

00:30:56.340 my prison legals, uh, counsel. You know, what that said to me very clearly was Joe Biden did not want

00:31:05.740 to get mixed up with, with, um, upsetting the FBI. He, he just, he just wasn't.

00:31:12.880 Why do you think that is? Why do you think that is?

00:31:18.320 The FBI is insidiously powerful. It's insidiously dangerous. Louis Free, the director of the FBI,

00:31:25.520 actually said it could be the most dangerous agency in the United States.

00:31:29.580 Insidiously. Yes, it could be. Yes. Louis Free was the director and he made that comment publicly.

00:31:35.680 He didn't say it was. I'm saying, um, we want to have a good guy. You know, people want to look up to

00:31:45.920 something. And so they look up to the FBI is going to save them. But the FBI is made of humans and they're

00:31:54.000 inner, inner involved. They're involved in a human enterprise and all human enterprises fail.

00:31:59.520 The biggest failure the FBI's got is it won't admit its failures. It just, it won't so that we as a

00:32:07.760 nation can, can help them fix them. But, um, when the FBI is doing background investigations on anybody

00:32:16.000 that takes a seat up at the, at the hill, well, you know, there's the Washington two-step Patrick.

00:32:24.400 If you find out a staffer has been involved in something he shouldn't have, maybe illegal,

00:32:30.320 you can do one of two things. You can either report that or else you can put it in your pocket.

00:32:35.120 And when you want access, you can then say to the staffer, you know,

00:32:40.960 you know, you know, you don't even have to, you know, just, you know, um, we like some assistance.

00:32:48.400 And, um, you know, you remember back there in, in Podunk, uh, you know, Kentucky or whatever,

00:32:56.000 you know, boom, um, J. Edgar Hoover was a very powerful man. And his legacy is one of blackmail.

00:33:04.880 His legacy is one of, well, you know, like people are talking about Mr. Epstein. Now it was

00:33:12.080 controlled by information and until, until literally that's what my case involves. And I

00:33:23.440 didn't even know it. I went into a lawyer's office and they're the finest whistleblower

00:33:29.120 attorneys in the world, but I didn't know it at the time. I just by happenstance ended up there.

00:33:35.280 And I said, I don't care if it means I die. What's going on in the FBI lab has got to be stopped.

00:33:43.680 And my wife and I decided we will put our lives on the line if necessary, but these are human rights

00:33:50.400 violations. Well, that gave somebody, um, uh, somebody's to kind of go ahead. This guy doesn't

00:33:59.520 care if they shoot him. Well, I cared, but you know, he's going to go where, where he thinks

00:34:05.920 this ought to go. So I'm sitting around talking about mass spectrometers might not work and protocols

00:34:12.080 are not valid and things like that. And other people are talking about, let's get oversight.

00:34:18.320 Let's get oversight of the FBI here. And so years later, um, as we're sitting around talking about

00:34:26.800 the old days, somebody says what that really was about is getting oversight of the FBI.

00:34:33.360 There needs to be oversight. It says guys in the bureau used to say, don't worry about it. We're

00:34:39.680 the investigators and nobody investigates the investigators. Somebody needs to investigate

00:34:46.240 the investigators. Who would that be though? Us. Who's us, the people, you and me and all of us.

00:34:54.400 And all of us. Yes. Who has more power. We, the people, the FBI or the government. When I say

00:34:59.120 government, I'm talking about, you know, uh, exec, you know, executive level highest level.

00:35:05.520 I think when you get to Washington DC, the FBI trumps everybody, they trump the department of

00:35:11.120 justice. They trump the white house. They just trump them. Okay. That's too bad, but they trump.

00:35:16.560 And I think that's the way it operates as a system, but the FBI, I've been in there. They are

00:35:24.080 absolutely terrified of the boogeyman and the boogeyman is you. Is you more, tell me more.

00:35:30.160 Is you. It's the media. It's the media. They're terrified of public exposure. They are absolutely,

00:35:38.480 Patrick, terrified of public exposure. Nobody wants you pointing their camera or your camera

00:35:45.120 at the FBI agent will walk away from it. FBI managers. Oh my gosh. They're terrified.

00:35:53.440 And it's a, it's a culture of, we got to hide. We got to hide. We got to hide. We have to hide

00:36:00.640 everything. If that's the case, why is, why does Comey love the camera so much?

00:36:07.760 You know, he's using the camera. He's using it. What do you mean? Sure. Um,

00:36:14.560 there are, let's say there's chicken eaters and there's egg eaters. Boy, does that sound strange?

00:36:26.960 Doesn't it? There's guys who are journalists who will feed you up as their source.

00:36:32.400 They've eaten the chicken. They're not going to get any more information. Then there's egg eaters.

00:36:36.720 There's guys in the media who will continue to work with you, work with you, protect you as a source.

00:36:43.360 Okay. And they get a long stream of information till the phone taps and everything catch up.

00:36:52.720 Hundreds of people in the FBI wanted to come forward after I came forward.

00:36:58.080 They said, well, the settlement the FBI made with me became known as the white first deal. Okay. You're 0.87

00:37:04.640 going to pay me my paycheck until I would normally retire because you owe me that. I uphold my side of

00:37:10.480 the contract, but you didn't. Then you're going to pay me my retirement. And that wasn't a payoff to

00:37:16.400 quiet me down or I wouldn't be talking to you right now. But I think when you go to DC,

00:37:21.920 when you go to the media right now, media is afraid. A number of us in the FBI who blew the whistle

00:37:32.560 have put together a book called Our FBI. Louis Free put together a book called My FBI.

00:37:40.800 Our FBI was written by former agent Rosemary Dew, and she's a very good author.

00:37:47.200 And there's 15 or 16 folks that stories were told. And it's our FBI, something to the effect of the way

00:37:53.680 the FBI suppresses whistleblowers or retaliates against whistleblowers, whatever. We cannot get

00:37:59.760 a publisher to publish it. We can not get a, nobody wants to touch it. In fact, one of them actually

00:38:06.240 said, I don't want to go to war with the FBI again. We can't get anybody to put it out. And it's a

00:38:12.560 textbook of this is what will happen to you. And wait, wait, wait. So, so let me get this straight.

00:38:20.640 So there is a book called My FBI. Okay. I just looked it up right now. My FBI by Louis Fred,

00:38:27.680 Fred, right? Director of FBI, Louis Fred. Yes. Director of FBI. And this book was written.

00:38:33.280 This is not a newer book, right? By, uh, uh, this was a book written and to give the exact time.

00:38:41.920 Uh, it's not like the last couple of years, this came out 2006. Okay. First edition. Oh, six. So we're

00:38:47.440 talking 14 years ago when you guys wrote our FBI. When did you guys write that book? Or when did she

00:38:53.760 write the book? About the last, we've been working on it for about the last three years. No one wants

00:38:58.160 to publish the book. Nobody wants to publish the book. She's about to self publish it. And that's,

00:39:05.840 and that's craziness. That's craziness. It's not about politics, Patrick. It's not about politics.

00:39:13.200 You know, people, every time an FBI person blows the whistle, they say, are you a Democrat or

00:39:17.920 Republican or a liberal or whatever? That's not what it's about. It's about, this is what we said

00:39:24.800 happened. It's clear that this has happened. And we're not here to get paid off. We're not here

00:39:39.200 to help somebody overcome Trump or overcome Hillary over whatever. We're just saying, this is the way

00:39:44.720 the FBI stops whistleblowers. Imagine this, federal law, federal law, the Whistleblower Protection Act,

00:39:52.800 was passed in 1989. The FBI refused to implement it until 1996, 1997. They refused to implement

00:40:03.520 federal law at the FBI. And they got away with it. And why we sued William Clinton was to get a

00:40:12.240 writ of mandamus. That means get a court to order him to implement federal law. You know how bizarre that

00:40:18.480 it is? That's just bizarre, Patrick. The senior law enforcement agency, and they want to clearly

00:40:25.040 declare it the world, but you know, in the US, will not obey the law. It will not obey the law.

00:40:31.760 Let me read what happened. So maybe you can unpack a little bit what happened here. 1998,

00:40:36.000 the FBI, the FBI, and the DOJ agreed to settle with Dr. Whitehurst, yourself. Dr. Whitehurst's

00:40:41.840 whistleblower retaliation claims cleared his record, restored all of his rights, and paid him a record

00:40:47.440 breaking settlement of $1.42 million, an amount unheard of for any federal employee, least of all

00:40:55.600 an FBI agent. What happened there for them to pay the $1.42 million?

00:41:02.400 The media, the Congress.

00:41:09.440 I think the man that is the strongest whistleblower advocate in the United States

00:41:15.040 in our Senate is Charles Grassley. You cannot bend that man. You cannot break that man.

00:41:22.720 He is exactly what you want to know a US Senator should be. He never quit. He never quit. He has

00:41:35.200 never quit. Just saying, you're going to adhere to the law, and by the way, I want to know this

00:41:42.160 information, and we give you the money to enforce the law. Now we want to know what you're using it for.

00:41:48.480 So there's no way to break Charles Grassley. He's a remarkable person.

00:41:57.840 But the FBI was facing that. They were facing the media. You know, when the O.J. Simpson trial came

00:42:05.600 along, I got dragged in as the mystery witness. That all of a sudden put it on the, uh-oh, there's this

00:42:11.760 FBI agent on the national news. Patrick, I live in a town of 1,600 people. My 1997 pickup truck has

00:42:19.360 crank-up windows in it, and that's who I am. I eat food out of the garden, okay? I had to ask Sam today,

00:42:26.560 the fellow that set this up with us, should I wear my suspenders and my, um, what do you see all the

00:42:34.240 lumberjack shirt, or should I put a suit on? He told me, well, it's up to you. Patrick doesn't

00:42:39.600 care, okay? It's so you see a suit. But we needed, I needed to stop what was happening there

00:42:46.880 in the lab, slanting, rewriting reports, altering evidence, um, people testifying about things they

00:42:56.480 had no idea about. But Washington, D.C. needed to get a handle on the FBI, which is out of control,

00:43:06.480 was out of control. And that, that's what they told me that my case really was about.

00:43:14.080 Um, I'm just a quantum chemist who wants to run a mass spectrometer the right way.

00:43:20.080 Yeah, but why did it pay to 1.42 million when you're saying the media? So you're saying they

00:43:25.040 wanted, they wanted to slant a story or they wanted to write a report? So are you saying that they

00:43:31.200 didn't want to tell the real truth of what happened and you did? And were they trying to kind of undermine

00:43:36.160 your reputation? No, I don't care about that. What they did, I don't have a reputation anyhow, okay?

00:43:41.440 What they did, Patrick, was to, um, we put forward to them, this is the settlement, okay?

00:43:52.000 Um, they had me under criminal investigation. They thought I had talked to the media,

00:43:56.240 okay? But this is what, this is what needs to happen. They agreed to admit to 40 sins, 40 things that

00:44:05.600 they'd done wrong, okay? And they did. And the, um, President Clinton agreed to order the FBI and the

00:44:21.280 U.S. Department of Justice to implement the Whistleblower Protection Act. He agreed to that.

00:44:26.560 And the U.S. Department of Justice agreed, finally, they were the holdouts to,

00:44:33.920 I wanted the contents of every file that the 11 guys that I reported misconduct,

00:44:40.000 their misconduct or malfeasance or misfeasance, I wanted the contents of every file they'd ever worked

00:44:46.320 on. And that was the largest Freedom of Information Act request of his kind in the FBI's history.

00:44:53.520 And I spent years acquiring it and then documenting it and cataloging it. And, um,

00:45:03.760 I've got it all. It's all digitized. Anybody that wants that information, I give it to them.

00:45:08.880 There was a fellow in the Harrison Fibers Unit who was found to have lied in the hearing involving a

00:45:17.200 federal judge. And I thought if he lied in that hearing, and I didn't find it out, another agent

00:45:25.520 sent a memo forward that said this guy had given false and misleading testimony there 27 times in a

00:45:32.080 hearing involving a federal judge. I mean, a federal judge was being, was being investigated for crime.

00:45:37.680 Okay. I figured if that guy did it with a federal judge, who else could he have harmed? So, so far,

00:45:45.120 I've collected the contents of about 1856 cases that he worked on. And men have gone free,

00:45:54.480 who have been in prison 20, 30 and 40 years because of that man's malfeasance,

00:46:00.800 have gone free. You can find their names. One of them is Donald Eugene Gates. Another one is Sante

00:46:07.440 Tribble and Sante died recently because of what happened to him in prison and the horrible conditions

00:46:13.680 he suffered under. Another was Kirk Odom and there's John Huffington. And the, and the names keep coming

00:46:20.240 out. They're like ghosts coming out of a fog because of one man, one man. And then it turned out that

00:46:29.360 his colleagues had also been doing the same thing. So in 2015, the FBI admitted that 26 of 28 FBI

00:46:41.200 hair examiners had given false and misleading testimony in their reports and or trial 90% of the

00:46:51.040 time over a 30 year period of time. And that's FBI admission, Patrick. And I can give you that.

00:46:57.440 And that's horrible. That, that brings tears to your eyes. It's so horrible because we need,

00:47:06.000 if I'm getting a little too loud, let me know Patrick, but we need to depend on somebody.

00:47:12.080 We need to know that our taxpayers dollars are going into protecting us into you real national

00:47:20.720 security. Not a bunch of people trying to make a career of their careers instead of do their jobs.

00:47:29.920 You know, it's amazing. I watch now Black Lives Matter and I'm cheering them. I'm a conservative,

00:47:36.080 old white Republican, and I'm cheering them because they've had enough. If you look at the record of the

00:47:42.480 people harmed by those hairs and fibers analyses, you'll find most of them are people of color.

00:47:49.680 Most of them are African American and nobody seems to pick up on that. 1.00

00:47:55.920 On that, that, well, he must be guilty. Therefore, the evidence is, this is what it means.

00:48:01.680 That's wrong. I, you know, I went to law school. I don't know if you noted that, but I went to

00:48:10.320 Georgetown and I got my JD. I went because the deputy general counsel at the FBI told me

00:48:18.080 when I went to her with these issues, if you just knew the law, Fred, you'd understand why these are

00:48:22.240 not really such big issues. So I applied to law school and Georgetown accepted me. Nobody else would.

00:48:29.520 But Georgetown accepted me. I went to law school for four years at night while I was

00:48:36.400 suing the FBI and the US Department of Justice and the President of the United States and

00:48:42.240 all those people and things. And I got out of law school and the deputy general counsel is still there.

00:48:51.920 And she said to me, Fred, that's just theory. You need to practice law. So I've practiced law for 16 years.

00:48:59.520 I've been a criminal defense attorney for 16 years. I got to tell you, Patrick, I've hated every

00:49:03.920 microsecond of it. I hate the courtroom. It's a place of misery. It's a place of crime. It's a place

00:49:09.680 of injustice. But at the end of it, I still think it's wrong for us to lie in court, to present half the

00:49:19.840 truth. And by the way, the FBI lab is doing it, still doing it. They moved and they recovered from

00:49:28.240 that. But now they've moved back into it. I watch FBI cases today and I look at, you know, I'm hired as

00:49:36.240 a forensic consultant. And I see, oh my goodness, they're rewriting reports. And oh my goodness,

00:49:43.280 they're talking about stuff they don't know anything about. And they're misinterpreting data.

00:49:47.680 You know, I asked you a question. I said, who's going to hold them accountable? So you said you,

00:49:53.600 who's me, media. Okay. Is me media or is me, we, the people? Which one is you?

00:49:59.280 You know what? We, the people read what you, the media published. Okay. Media, media has lost some of

00:50:06.880 its credibility too. You know, we've seen, we've seen that it's been politicized, but

00:50:11.120 one thing that's encouraging to me, literally, and I've said it already about Black Lives Matter

00:50:18.800 is that they've had enough. Those folks were right or wrong. They have had enough and they've had

00:50:27.580 enough and it's not going to, it's not going to stop. I pray it's not going to stop just because

00:50:33.000 it got cold. You know, it's not going to stop because we had our celebration this summer and now

00:50:38.940 we're going to go home and things are going to be right. I think it's going to carry forward.

00:50:43.520 And I think that demonstrates to this nation, we have had enough. This, this thing that you represent

00:50:51.060 is supposed to be our thing and you've made it into your thing.

00:50:55.120 Okay. Fred, question at the time when you were coming up. So one case, John F. Kennedy. So at

00:51:01.580 that time you said Hoover earlier, who was more powerful at that time? The mob, Hoover or JFK?

00:51:07.920 JFK. JFK was more powerful at that time. Yes, that's right. Then it's Hoover. Then it's the mob.

00:51:13.440 Did I say JFK? You said JFK at the top. I'm very sorry. No, I'm sorry. I misspoke. No,

00:51:19.900 the FBI. So Hoover was the most powerful in America. Yes. Who was after him?

00:51:29.220 I don't know that. I don't know that. Wait, let me, let me get this straight. So you're saying from

00:51:35.100 that time till today, the FBI, has it always been where FBI has been more powerful than the president?

00:51:42.700 Yes. And I would say it this way. I would say it this way until they met Mr. Trump. Okay. Then

00:51:52.700 they met themselves. You know, that's my opinion. He just wasn't going to be bullied around by that

00:51:57.920 stuff. And, you know, I was laughing about it. I wasn't in love with Mr. Trump, but I was laughing

00:52:03.040 about the fact that he, he just, wait a minute, you're not doing that. You're not coming over here

00:52:08.240 and doing that to me. I'm your boss, you know, and that famous saying of his, you're fired. Okay.

00:52:16.400 But we had an FBI director, the only FBI director in the FBI's history, William Sessions, who was a

00:52:23.460 true good American FBI agent, a true good man, an ethical good man that the FBI upper management

00:52:32.420 conspired against and got fired. William Sessions was a, I'll tell you, he sent a memo out to all

00:52:40.640 personnel at one time. He said, if you have an issue that you, you have not, do not feel has been

00:52:46.260 addressed, I want to know about it. Come to my office. When I got that memo, I picked the phone

00:52:52.260 up immediately. The memo was in my hand. His secretary said, come up right now. That doesn't happen at the

00:52:59.660 FBI. A mid-level manager like me goes up to the, yes. And he listened to me for 45 minutes.

00:53:06.900 That was a national leader. And then two weeks later, he brought me back with his general counsel

00:53:12.580 and they talked to me for two hours. Get out of here. Yes. And I was talking to him about the

00:53:19.280 problems in the lab. This is the director of FBI at the time. This is the director of

00:53:23.660 William Sessions. Yes. And then shortly after that, he got fired. He got set up by his upper

00:53:34.260 management because he was bringing some sense of, of good to us.

00:53:41.000 Let me ask you, since, since you've been out, since you've been out. Okay. So you, you're done. You

00:53:49.980 know, you get your obviously lawsuit settled 1.42 in 1998. That's 22 years ago. What have you been

00:53:56.800 doing the last 22 years? Well, um, for five years after I got out, I was offering my services as a

00:54:08.180 consultant, um, in forensic science. I was, um, going through FBI documents and watching how they

00:54:18.560 were handling cases and looking at what they were, how they were progressing. And they progressed, Patrick.

00:54:25.240 They're light years from where they were when I got out. Okay. But the rot is sneaking back in.

00:54:30.820 But, um, after five years, um, I live in a small county in the middle of nowhere in North Carolina.

00:54:39.340 Okay. After five years, I, um, said, well, I got a law degree and I don't understand these guys around

00:54:47.500 here. I'm offering my services free and nobody's calling me. So I said, well, I need to go over to

00:54:52.180 the courthouse, start practicing law and find out what's going on. And so I went over and, uh, by the way,

00:55:00.120 nobody would hire me. Nobody wants to hire somebody that sued the president, you know,

00:55:04.380 that's trouble around the office. I mean, nobody anywhere would hire me. Um, but that was okay.

00:55:09.380 I needed to work for myself. And, uh, I took the bar exam and failed it and took the bar exam and

00:55:16.800 failed it. And then I took the bar exam and passed it. And then I went over to the courthouse and for

00:55:21.200 about 90 days, I sat in the courtroom trying to figure out what in the Dickens is going on.

00:55:25.060 And then I, uh, went over the public defender's office and put my name on the, uh, indigent defense

00:55:33.400 list and started, uh, going to court with folks. And I got to tell you what goes on in the courtroom

00:55:40.400 has nothing to do with what goes on in law school. It's like, you know, if you don't go in as an

00:55:46.880 apprentice for somebody, you are lost. So I started defending folks to, to understand why

00:55:56.140 court, the courtrooms allow garbage in the name of science, name science, it's garbage

00:56:04.380 to be entered as evidence. And then I started consulting heavily. And then it was a point

00:56:13.200 at which I had about 250 cases I was representing, which is crazy impossible. And I learned the

00:56:20.880 culture of the courtroom is a big reason why the forensic science gets away with what it

00:56:26.280 gets away with. Um, when you go into a courtroom and there's 12 to 2,500 people coming through

00:56:32.760 that courtroom in one day, one day, and they have 360 minutes to parse among all of them.

00:56:40.560 You can't say Fourier transform infrared spectrophotometry. You can't say gas chromatography,

00:56:45.940 mass spectrometry. You've got a lineup behind the rest of the attorneys waiting for two or three

00:56:50.740 prosecutors, possibly only one. Hand them your, your, your bid for freedom. They give you back

00:56:57.660 their bid. You go to your client, you come back, you, I mean, it's going, it's a, it is a production

00:57:03.120 line and concepts of validation of scientific protocols are way, way, way outside the sphere

00:57:14.780 of people that practice law every day that literally go into court. So, so let me ask you,

00:57:21.120 did, did, did what you do the last 22 years distract you from going back and holding the FBI

00:57:29.280 accountable where you were kind of like, well, I did my part. I'm moving on to becoming an attorney

00:57:33.400 or is there still the fire right now where the last 22 years have taught you on how to go out there and

00:57:40.420 expose more today? Meaning, is there still a inspiration? Is there still a fire or a chip on

00:57:46.720 your shoulder to say what's wrong is wrong. I want to be able to go expose it today. Are

00:57:51.040 you kind of over it? I'm moving on. I will die exposing. I will die raising questions. I mean,

00:57:59.700 I'm saying it's 73. I got until I'm blind, until I can't get out of bed until I will do this till

00:58:07.340 the day I die. This is my country and I'm not giving it away to thugs period. Define thugs.

00:58:15.320 Thugs. What I saw at the FBI. Alter scientists reports. Alter evidence. Lie in court. Intimidate

00:58:28.260 people on the street. All of that. You know, I'm not giving it up to them. I'm going to fight smart.

00:58:36.760 You know, the Viet Cong taught me fight to fight again. You know, they didn't stand up and shoot at

00:58:43.520 you. They came out of a hole, shot at you and came back in the hole. Fight to fight again. Fight smart.

00:58:49.900 But I'm not giving my country away. I'm not going to. It's mine. And if everybody else wants to give

00:58:57.820 it away, that's just fine. So I look at their protocols. I look at whether they validated things

00:59:06.840 or not. I raise issues. Validate means that, and I'll tell you, the folks who may hear this may not

00:59:14.020 understand what I'm saying. Okay. When I ask you a question, you give me an answer, but did you give

00:59:20.280 me the right answer? You had a method which you used to give me an answer. Is it a method that gave the

00:59:26.920 right answer? If you validated it? Forensic science didn't even understand that. They didn't

00:59:34.440 understand that until about Supreme Court law, Daubert versus Merrill-Galph Pharmaceuticals came out and

00:59:41.800 said, if you're going to come into a court of law with evidence, you've got to tell us if you use the

00:59:47.460 right process to get to it. It's sort of, if we harken back to Matt versus Ohio, it used to be that

00:59:55.240 officers beat confessions out of people. Well, then you get the suppression of evidence.

01:00:02.800 Okay. We're not going to accept that evidence because it's more important that we do this job

01:00:07.960 right. Well, what happened was the nightsticks got traded for people in crime laboratories.

01:00:15.560 You're either going to do it right and give us the answer and prove how you got that answer

01:00:21.480 or else you're not going to do it. Well, it's taken over 20, 1993. What is that? 20 years or whatever.

01:00:34.680 And courts are still not accepting that. You walk in with a badge and a gun and you're an FBI agent and

01:00:41.960 by golly, we better believe those boys in blue. No, there are boys in blue who cross the blue line.

01:00:50.080 You know that expression. I didn't cross the blue line. They crossed. They go outside

01:00:57.080 the honorable profession of being law enforcement officer. And we have a difficulty pointing our

01:01:04.720 fingers at them because very often they are false heroes. So Fred, who fears them the most? Who fears the FBI

01:01:13.540 the most? I think the nation is afraid of the FBI. You think so? You think the nation as people

01:01:23.140 is afraid of the FBI? I think so, sir. Tell me, tell me why you think the nation is afraid of the FBI.

01:01:29.300 You know, the FBI in many ways represents a national security threat.

01:01:40.420 And nobody's doing anything about it.

01:01:42.260 If I know what you're going to say, I can make you say anything I want you to. If I know that your

01:01:51.540 primary purpose in life is to become promoted so that you're making more salary, I can get you

01:01:58.820 promoted if you say what I want you to. I can do that. Then when we have national security threat,

01:02:06.740 like let's say weapons of mass destruction. I watched that silliness in where was Iraq, 1.00

01:02:15.940 you know? And I heard military officers say to me, we saw from our satellites what was coming out of

01:02:22.340 those tractor trailer trucks. Okay? You can't see from 30,000 feet in the air, much less 30,000 or

01:02:32.740 whatever. You can. It's not possible. But you get people to say it. And then what have we got?

01:02:40.260 We're running off on boondoggles, following faults. The American people need to demand more than that.

01:02:48.180 And I think when the media says we won't publish our FBI,

01:02:53.140 you know, they don't feel solidly on footing to put out information that's valid information

01:03:03.620 that can be tested and checked and documented. They're okay. They're not sure that the people

01:03:09.700 will back them. And the people, people are afraid of the FBI. And that's too bad.

01:03:17.140 Yeah. Who dislikes you? Who is afraid of you? Or people like you?

01:03:22.980 I think the people that, that dislike people like me are those that are guilty.

01:03:28.900 I think so. There are guys there, you know, I don't know what you're going to do with this footage,

01:03:34.020 but there are FBI agents that will be infuriated by what I'm saying. They will think that I crossed

01:03:40.820 the blue line. I have friends, very good and close friends who are still, well,

01:03:45.780 they're out of the FBI now, but it will tell me about conversations they go into where people say,

01:03:51.300 that guy's a nut. He's a traitor. Okay. Well, so I'm a nut. Oh, okay. But I present to you

01:04:02.020 US government documentation to say what I'm saying. Don't trust me. Don't trust the FBI. Ask for

01:04:11.540 the data. Ask for the process. And you know what? We're not going into court and asking for,

01:04:16.820 I want your data and I want your protocol. And I don't care if it's the data from an investigation

01:04:22.260 in the field or if it's in the laboratory or what I want to see it. And we're not doing that. And I

01:04:28.660 don't think we're, we're not doing that out of, of laziness. I think we're not doing that out of fear,

01:04:34.900 out of fear. What's going to happen? Is he going to start looking at my, um, computer, um, searches,

01:04:45.620 or, uh, is he going to look at my taxes or is he going to harass me or is what, is he going to show

01:04:51.940 up at my job and ask my boss if I'm there knowing my boss is afraid of him. So I'll lose my, all of that

01:04:58.580 stuff. You need to get a handle on that, Patrick. So then that means the business model of the,

01:05:04.900 if, because if you're saying that to me, first place I go to is the business model of, of an FBI

01:05:10.260 agent doesn't work. Meaning if I have to worry about kissing your ass to get a promotion, that 0.50

01:05:15.820 model doesn't work in the FBI. If that makes any sense. I don't know if I'm making any sense on what

01:05:19.480 I'm saying. The business model has to be based on markers. I hit whether you like it or not.

01:05:25.220 Uh, uh, and how you do that. I don't know how you do that. I'm not in that world. Uh, uh, I know

01:05:31.560 every business has a certain form of a compensation structure on how they pay people. And sometimes a

01:05:36.920 certain comp plan can create bad habits. So if you're saying I need to kiss someone's ass to get

01:05:44.080 a promotion, that is definitely not a good comp structure set up for FBI agents. I wouldn't want

01:05:48.960 that kind of account for FBI agents. Well, you give the right answer to the right guy,

01:05:56.700 to the right question at the right time to get the right job. And that's the model. And that's the

01:06:02.140 model. It's not effective. I mean, I, I just, I think there's no accountability. Yeah. If you make

01:06:10.140 a mistake, there's no account. You know what? I don't know what business you're in Patrick,

01:06:13.240 but if you're selling a product, okay. And you sell a product that doesn't work, but you know

01:06:19.180 what? You've got a business. There's no, there's no accountability there. So if you've got no

01:06:25.080 accountability, you've got to have maximum oversight. Every time you take a step, you take

01:06:30.600 a step, someone has to look over your shoulder. Now there's a public policy reason to have no

01:06:35.400 accountability for law enforcement because law enforcement would be sued continually and be

01:06:39.700 put out of work. That's been carried too far. And there's movement in this country right now

01:06:44.900 to start naming names and giving citizens the right to sue law enforcement officers who, you know,

01:06:52.660 who pull this stuff of shooting folks in the back who are running from them and things like that.

01:06:59.440 The man who put Donald Eugene Gates in prison for 28 years of his life lives in a

01:07:09.580 nice corner lot in a nice suburb, making a bunch of money. And for three years after he got out of

01:07:16.460 the bureau, there was the things I raised about him. Then the FBI hired him again as a contract

01:07:21.060 employee. They let him go. When I, when during a new revelations coming out, I called a newspaper,

01:07:30.440 a well-known newspaper, and I said, would you ask the question publicly, why is he still working for

01:07:34.520 the FBI when you know these things have happened? Okay. And they did. And the FBI let him go that day.

01:07:42.400 There is no accountability. They should go and seize his retirement check, seize his home,

01:07:48.580 seize all his property. I don't care where he goes. I'm sorry. He can live in an apartment someplace if he

01:07:53.880 can afford it. Take it all away and use it to try to make hold, though you will never make hold,

01:08:00.700 those people that he put down for decades with false and misleading testimony. And the government

01:08:07.940 has admitted this man did this. There's a case out there, U.S. versus Derry Nelson. Derry spent 33 years

01:08:16.840 in prison. He got out about two years ago after we fought for about four years. He got out. Now he's

01:08:23.680 waiting to be tried again for murder. And the government admits, and the court admits, that the

01:08:29.980 evidence presented by that particular FBI agent was lies and fabrications. And the court of appeals says

01:08:35.940 it was perjury. There's no accountability for that agent. He's beyond accountability. Patrick,

01:08:42.840 you know, if there is no accountability, there has to be absolute total oversight. Every day,

01:08:53.700 people are monitoring what's going. There are cameras. Everything you do, everything you do,

01:08:59.220 there's a camera pointed in. Otherwise, you don't fear anything. But you do want to get ahead and get

01:09:07.100 to be the section chief or the deputy director or go to the Rose Garden and have somebody put a medal

01:09:13.960 on you. You know? Yeah. So yes, kissing ass doesn't give a good product with promotion that way. But 1.00

01:09:21.880 it's the format for the FBI. You know, I'm looking at a number right now from Gallup, say FBI positive

01:09:31.540 job rating steady among Americans. This is from a year ago, May of 2019. It says, to give you the

01:09:39.640 specific numbers, 57% of Americans say the FBI is doing an excellent or a good job. Okay. 57%. This

01:09:48.220 is from Gallup. There's another one that says 76%, which is from courthouse news, saying 76% of Americans

01:09:54.940 think that the FBI is doing a good job. Do you think America looks at FBI in a trusting way and

01:10:04.620 they say, you know, I don't know what Fred is talking about. I just think he's a former disgruntled

01:10:09.560 FBI agent. He just, you know, somebody probably pissed him off and I get it, you know, good for him,

01:10:13.420 you know, something probably happened and more power to him, you know, but most FBI agents are good guys

01:10:19.900 and they're doing the right things. And I don't think they have the power. It's like cops, you know,

01:10:23.700 one, one cop doesn't ruin all cops. Of course there's bad cops, but not all cops are bad cops.

01:10:29.240 You know, I think it's just over-exaggerating. What would you say to that?

01:10:33.540 I would say, first of all, most FBI agents are good folks. And I testified to that on the Senate,

01:10:40.320 you know, don't paint this with too narrow a brush and don't paint it with too broad a brush.

01:10:45.240 Most FBI employees are good people. They do have a, a moral dilemma they have to face.

01:10:51.140 Um, do I uphold my oath or do I keep my family safe? Okay. But they're good people.

01:10:58.380 What happens is the management of the FBI is, is phenomenally, in my opinion, corrupt.

01:11:03.840 And I think when you go to the field and you ask field agents about what they refer to as

01:11:08.480 BU humps, BU as in boy uniform, Bravo uniform, BU humps. Nobody has a good opinion of BU humps.

01:11:16.880 They are people that gave the right answer to the right guy to get the right job, the right time,

01:11:21.460 that sort of. Okay. Um, I think that it's sort of like what you said about most think you're doing

01:11:29.000 a good job. There are people on the street that think I'm a good attorney. How do they know whether

01:11:34.920 I'm a good attorney or not? They're not attorneys. They can't judge me. How did anybody know that agent

01:11:41.300 that put, that put that man in prison for 28 years based on false and misleading testimony?

01:11:47.660 How did anyone know that that agent was not a good guy? When you looked at him, he was an agent's

01:11:53.920 agent. He was a very handsome man. He was tall. He was built. He was, you know, he was soft-spoken

01:12:02.300 and he was an out and out liar. He was a psychopath in my opinion. Okay. How would anybody know that?

01:12:11.460 He got three attorneys general's awards. I mean, the United States Department of Justice gave him

01:12:17.480 three awards. And then one day I'm in this other agent's office and the agent pulls out a memo he

01:12:25.920 wrote on the third day of August 1989. And he says that psychopath gave false and misleading testimony

01:12:33.660 27 times in a hearing involving a federal judge by the name of Alcee Hastings, who is now a senior

01:12:42.300 U.S. congressman. And he gave me that memo. And I copied that memo and the world would have never seen

01:12:52.200 that memo. And that memo was to that agent's boss to telling this is going on. And we need to fix this

01:13:00.600 or do something about it or the FBI's reputation is going to suffer. Okay. How would you, how would

01:13:05.760 the American people know whether FBI agents are doing the job right? By looking at the work product

01:13:11.800 of the Office of Congressional and Public Affairs. They got more agents worried about the media

01:13:18.740 representation and what the public perceives of them than they do about some major crime areas.

01:13:24.740 There's a hundreds of people in the Office of Congressional and Public Affairs.

01:13:28.820 Okay. And those guys are continually feeding misinformation. And so you see today's FBI,

01:13:36.580 you see, you know, there's an FBI show on right now where there's a woman agent and a Middle Eastern guy

01:13:42.900 who is an agent. And you say, boy, and those of us that have been in the FBI, there's a glass ceiling.

01:13:49.860 That's, that's silliness. That's silliness. You know, that's not what happens in the FBI.

01:13:55.780 The FBI is an old white man's organization. And it stays that way by brute force. 0.87

01:14:02.020 Is it really? Yes. If you call, say, call on Rosemary Dew or whatever, you know, and look at,

01:14:10.180 and look at some of the underlying, a friend of mine, a friend of mine just got out of prison on

01:14:14.900 the 18th of this month. He was an FBI agent. He got four years. He can't talk about it, but he got four

01:14:23.220 years because he did not want to go into Muslim communities of immigrants and force people in 0.99

01:14:35.140 the religious community to stitch on their people in the community. He don't want to do it. 1.00

01:14:42.100 And he went about revealing it in a way that the FBI was able to get him convicted to four years,

01:14:49.780 four years in sentence. He's just got out after two.

01:14:55.460 The American people do not know the problems in the FBI, and they can't know.

01:15:02.180 J. Edgar Hoover building is a bunker. And you're not allowed in.

01:15:08.580 Who's working hard right now to expose them? And who do you think can be successful at doing that?

01:15:15.140 Is it even possible? Senator Charles Grasley.

01:15:18.500 That's the one you were talking about earlier. Senator Charles Grasley is an American hero.

01:15:23.860 Who's the biggest name that has his back even bigger than him, more powerful than him?

01:15:32.740 Senator Charles Grasley is the foundation.

01:15:36.900 Okay, got it.

01:15:38.420 He is holding up the building. What's supporting Senator Charles Grasley is the fact that he is

01:15:46.020 above reproach. Period.

01:15:48.980 A what? Say that one more time.

01:15:50.900 He's above reproach. He's above the FBI tricks. Completely above it. He is an American hero. He is

01:15:59.780 the American hero. Period.

01:16:01.700 He's 87 years old.

01:16:04.420 Yes.

01:16:05.460 And I'm 73, Patrick.

01:16:12.100 There's a big difference between 87 and 73.

01:16:14.500 That's right.

01:16:15.540 There's a big difference.

01:16:16.980 Isn't it amazing?

01:16:19.140 Well, in today's times, you know, 73, we have a 78-year-old president-elect and a 74-year-old

01:16:24.900 president today.

01:16:26.100 Yes.

01:16:27.220 So today, actually, that would be considered old a long time ago. Not today. Today, we're

01:16:33.460 living in a different time.

01:16:36.820 You know, you eventually joined the board of directors at the National

01:16:40.900 Whistleblower Center, and you helped fight cases where misconduct has been involved,

01:16:45.540 helping innocent people get out of jail. And you've been doing that, you know, several of the

01:16:49.060 things you've worked on. What do you think about what Tulsi Gabbard said recently,

01:16:53.060 when she said she believes Trump should pardon Julian Assange and Edward Snowden? I don't

01:16:58.580 know if you caught that or not, but she just said that a few days ago.

01:17:04.180 I have heard that.

01:17:08.660 I'm at odds with Mr. Snowden.

01:17:14.580 You know, what Mr. Snowden pointed out was that there was not a place he could go to

01:17:20.900 in our national security agencies. That would work. That's what he pointed out.

01:17:29.060 The secrets that he let go, that I understand, I don't have first-hand knowledge that are damaging

01:17:37.140 to national security makes me say, you know, there's got to be another way.

01:17:48.020 There's got to be another way. NSA, CIA, intelligence community, whatever. There's got to be another

01:17:54.820 way to do this. Besides, when whistleblowers are not allowed to report internally.

01:18:02.580 Then they're like me. They finally just go out. And it creates a distrust.

01:18:12.020 But if Snowden was a righteous, he had righteous concerns. So did my friend that just got out of

01:18:19.940 prison after two, four years of sentence, but two years in. Okay. Righteous concern.

01:18:25.220 And the bullies in those organizations will not seriously consider the concerns and try to address

01:18:33.700 them. And, you know, as a nation, we're concerned about that stuff. Should they give him a pardon?

01:18:44.100 I am personally afraid of anything that Donald Trump does. I'm a Republican. I'm an old conservative

01:18:55.780 white man, Republican. Okay. But I am concerned about anything he does. He frightens me in his

01:19:03.060 amateur way of going about what he's going about.

01:19:04.820 Can you unpack that? You're saying he's going through things in an amateur way. Can you unpack

01:19:10.900 it? What do you mean by that? He's an amateur. He's not out of DC. He doesn't understand the

01:19:17.300 nuances of what he's doing. And he's, some of the, some of his ideas are good ideas, but

01:19:24.660 to continually get caught in lies in inappropriate activity and behavior and, you know, misogynistic,

01:19:36.420 whatever, and all of that stuff to encourage white supremacists or whatever. That's, that's,

01:19:42.820 that's a, that's an amateur. That's an amateur. Leading this country takes a professional and

01:19:49.700 um, it's too bad because we need that, uh, whatever it is that sort of, I'm going to stand

01:19:58.820 in your face, but we also need some substance behind it. And I'm, I'm afraid Donald doesn't

01:20:04.580 have that substance. That's my personal opinion. No, it's, it's your perspective is, is, is hurt.

01:20:10.660 You know, it's who would you say was a good combination of having a backbone and still

01:20:16.100 knowing how to play the political game. Who was a good combination of both?

01:20:20.660 Well, I'll, I'll announce in your show, I voted for Kamala Harris. 0.75

01:20:25.860 You voted for Kamala Harris. I did. I voted for, I voted for Joe Biden because

01:20:31.140 he's tagging along with Kamala, but she's been a public servant her whole life. 0.73

01:20:36.500 I want to see equality in this nation. I want to see someone who's an attorney, who's been in court,

01:20:44.260 who understands our legal system. I want to, I I've been up against her at a, at a distance

01:20:50.660 in a court case. I went through in San Francisco where she was actually providing cover for somebody 0.80

01:20:55.940 that was providing bad information. She didn't know it. But, um, uh, when I went down there,

01:21:02.500 that's, that's who I, that's my finger went, my pen went on that. Um, who, who are your all time, uh,

01:21:09.700 favorite presidents? I'm curious, like, who else have you voted for? Who do you look at as a

01:21:13.620 great president? I love Ronald Reagan. You know, um, I know Ronald had his faults,

01:21:19.940 but I love Ronald Reagan. I'm just sorry that he was a Hollywood cowboy, you know? Um, uh,

01:21:27.220 uh, and the first time, the first time I voted for Barack Obama, I was pleased that Barack's personal

01:21:37.380 life didn't get crowded into the media all the time exposure. I'm so tired of that, you know? Um,

01:21:45.940 but I didn't vote for anybody the next time I'm a, I was afraid that he went way too far in the other

01:21:51.380 direction and, and created Donald Trump is what I think he did. Did you vote for Trump or no? No. Um,

01:22:01.380 I did not vote for Trump. I couldn't vote for anybody in that election. Got it. Got it. Uh, uh,

01:22:10.180 uh, interesting, uh, interesting perspective for you to not, uh, support a Trump

01:22:16.420 pardoning Assange and Edward Snowden because they would be whistleblowers and why not pardon them so

01:22:27.140 they can be free. It's very interesting because you're very, um, you're, you're, you're tough to

01:22:34.580 put in a place because you're all, you're, you're in different places politically, but who you vote

01:22:40.500 for what you like, what you dislike, you like Trump's personality to go up against the FBI

01:22:46.180 because you thought he was the right guy that could go up against FBI, but you didn't vote for

01:22:50.180 him. You voted for Kamala Harris because you like her approach works. You know, you're very interesting

01:22:55.060 where you are and how you process issues. Very, very interesting. I have to say this to you. Um,

01:23:00.660 you know, I'd like to do a quick, uh, a speed round. I'll give you a name and tell me the first

01:23:05.460 thing that comes to mind. I'll give you one name and tell me the first thing that comes to mind. Uh, Putin.

01:23:14.980 A quick name would be Trump. Okay. Comey. 0.99

01:23:25.940 I don't have a name for him unless you want me to say something. Oh, it's not a name, any word,

01:23:30.740 any word that comes to mind. You can tell me. Comey, what word comes to mind?

01:23:35.460 The word? Problem. Uh, so what word would come to mind for Putin?

01:23:41.140 Putin? Trump. Okay. Got it. How about Trump?

01:23:46.180 Putin. Okay. Kamala Harris.

01:23:51.620 Rosa Parks. Carter. Jimmy Carter.

01:23:57.620 Lincoln.

01:24:00.420 Okay. Reagan.

01:24:01.300 Roy Rogers.

01:24:04.420 Roy Rogers.

01:24:05.380 Roy Rogers.

01:24:06.740 Obama.

01:24:11.860 Clean.

01:24:13.460 Clean?

01:24:14.340 Clean.

01:24:14.740 Okay. Julian Assange.

01:24:20.260 Dirty.

01:24:21.620 Snowden.

01:24:24.340 Confused.

01:24:25.780 AOC.

01:24:26.340 Dangerous.

01:24:33.700 Dangerous.

01:24:35.620 Bill Clinton.

01:24:37.700 Dangerous.

01:24:39.460 Biden.

01:24:41.940 Politician.

01:24:43.300 Hillary.

01:24:45.460 Very dangerous.

01:24:47.780 You are so interesting.

01:24:49.700 William Sessions.

01:24:53.460 Patriot.

01:24:54.020 Patriot.

01:24:54.100 Patriot.

01:24:54.180 Patriot.

01:24:54.340 Patriot.

01:24:54.660 I got to tell you, I've enjoyed this, uh, uh, conversation with you.

01:25:01.140 Very much so.

01:25:02.660 I've really enjoyed talking to you.

01:25:04.020 You know, your perspective is very, uh, um,

01:25:08.820 obviously, you know, the one thing is very, very clear with you.

01:25:13.140 You're, uh, unbreakable with your beliefs.

01:25:15.620 You're a true believer of where you're at.

01:25:18.740 You're not willing to compromise that.

01:25:20.340 You're calling out, you know, who you consider being one of the most powerful institutions that have not, are not held accountable by anybody.

01:25:31.300 Um, and I'm really curious to know what you're going to do at the young age of 73.

01:25:35.860 Like, I'm really curious to know what you're going to do next.

01:25:38.020 Because if you're talking about Senator Grassley at 87, being the one that's going around, you know, driving his initiative.

01:25:48.340 And he's the leader to be able to hold the FBI accountable.

01:25:51.300 And you're 73.

01:25:52.340 That means, uh, you, you got some fresh, you know, legs to be able to make a run at some things you can expose.

01:26:01.220 And I'm very curious and looking forward to seeing what you're going to be doing.

01:26:06.580 Well, are you asking me a question or telling me good night?

01:26:11.940 I'm going to leave it open-ended for you to have closing thoughts.

01:26:14.500 You have the final word.

01:26:15.540 What do you want to say before we wrap this up?

01:26:17.700 What I'm going to do is keep watching.

01:26:23.620 This is my country.

01:26:25.060 And I'm going to keep watching the people that I think are failing.

01:26:31.780 And raising issues about those failures.

01:26:36.980 I'm not going to move to Washington, DC.

01:26:39.140 I'm not going to run for public office.

01:26:42.420 I've learned what I need to learn in a court of law.

01:26:45.060 And so I'm not going to represent defendants in courts of law anymore.

01:26:49.780 But, um, my, my strong point is science and just saying, you know, this is the way I see it.

01:26:59.700 I may be wrong, but this is the way I see it.

01:27:03.940 And I, I think finishing up, I'm going to continue to collect data.

01:27:08.740 And it's, you know, it's U.S. government documents, or if it's data from crime laboratories, or if it's testimonies from courts or whatever, I'm going to continue to collect data and give it away to anybody that wants it.

01:27:24.980 Well, let us know if you got anything new you want to share with us, we're here to, uh, if you got anything you want to share with, uh, the world, because they're curious as well.

01:27:36.260 They're curious as well.

01:27:37.980 So thank you so much for being a guest.

01:27:40.020 Uh, I know we're not going to be speaking probably in a month of December.

01:27:44.180 If we don't happy holidays, Merry Christmas and a happy new year to you.

01:27:48.820 And to you too, sir.

01:27:50.180 Thank you.

01:27:50.740 How can that story be so secretive where not many people have heard his stories?

01:27:56.740 Isn't that interesting?

01:27:57.460 Like if you go online right now, you type in his name, you're not going to find out.

01:28:00.900 You'll see Wikipedia, but you're not going to find anything.

01:28:03.860 I mean, you're not going to find videos, interviews, nothing of him.

01:28:07.860 And to have that fascinating of an interview, to be that stubbornly curious that you want to know.

01:28:14.580 Powerful story, by the way.

01:28:16.260 Curious to know what you took away from it.

01:28:18.420 And, uh, if you enjoyed this, I mean, he's still got me thinking.

01:28:20.660 I literally just got out of the interview.

01:28:22.500 If you enjoyed this interview, you would also enjoy an interview I did with Michael McGowan,

01:28:25.940 former FBI agent who went up against the Sinaloa cartel and La Cosa Nostra.

01:28:30.820 If you've never watched this, click over here to watch that interview.

01:28:33.140 Similar story.

01:28:33.780 Nobody knew him until we did the interview, and then he ended up getting a million views

01:28:37.060 or so.

01:28:37.620 And he's also got a fascinating interview.

01:28:39.460 And if you've not subscribed to the channel, please do so.

01:28:42.500 Thanks for watching everybody.

01:28:43.540 Take care.

01:28:43.940 Bye bye.

Former FBI Agent Sues The FBI & Bill Clinton For $1.4 Million and Wins

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