Valuetainment - Former Head of Mossad From Israel Reveals Their Tactics

00:00:01.000 The Mossad is responsible of looking for the security of Jewish community.

00:00:08.620 We brought the Jews from Iraq, Syria, from Yemen, Ethiopia, Morocco.

00:00:14.220 Everybody puts them out there as the top three spy agencies.

00:00:18.020 What do you think separates the culture of Mossad versus the MI6 or versus the CIA or any other agency out there?

00:00:25.900 At all times, we have to try and identify signs and indications of peace with our present enemies.

00:00:36.700 Who trained the Mossad originally?

00:00:39.420 We were trained mainly by trial and error.

00:00:42.840 Would you put Iran at the top threat in the Middle East or who would you put ahead of Iran?

00:00:47.460 Khomeini represents the most extreme group that exists in Islam. 1.00

00:00:54.240 They don't accept us being a country at all.

00:00:58.980 And obviously, you're seeing what's going on with America and we saw what happened at the Capitol.

00:01:02.580 America has lost its prime statue around the world.

00:01:06.840 And after the events of the last two or three days, I don't see how America can convince its other allies around the world

00:01:17.480 that the best form of regime is democracy.

00:01:24.240 My guest today is Shabtai Shavit, who is the former head of the Mossad.

00:01:30.800 And if you know what the Mossad is known for, we're going to get right into it.

00:01:34.400 They're known as the top three strongest spy agencies in the world with CIA being at the top.

00:01:40.520 Then you got the MI6.

00:01:41.580 Then you have the Mossad.

00:01:42.340 And they have a rich history with a lot of respect.

00:01:44.940 He started in 1964 when he joined the Mossad and then he became the director general of the Mossad,

00:01:50.420 which is the head of Mossad from 1989 to 1996 with a resume and a ton of stories.

00:01:56.800 But he's kept it very low profile and it's been 25 years since he retired so he can talk with us today.

00:02:02.600 Having said that, Shabtai, thank you so much for being a guest on Valuetainment.

00:02:06.640 My pleasure.

00:02:07.280 So, I understand you're in Israel right now.

00:02:10.900 How are things in Israel today?

00:02:14.500 Well, you know, they say that the world is a global village.

00:02:19.580 So, in the sense of Corona or the COVID-19, all over the world, we are at the same situation.

00:02:29.280 Most of the time we see the storm.

00:02:31.520 We are waiting for the vaccine to get it.

00:02:35.360 And we are looking forward to positive and good news sometimes during 2021.

00:02:43.280 Very cool.

00:02:43.880 So, you may be in Israel, but we're living with the same kind of challenges everywhere.

00:02:48.700 Same as Israel. 0.89

00:02:50.080 So, you know, obviously your resume, you've dealt with a lot of different things.

00:02:54.160 You were involved during the collapse of the Soviet Union, the peace agreements with Jordan,

00:02:59.360 whether it's the assassination of former Prime Minister Yachak Rabin or Iranian Revolution.

00:03:05.080 You've been around with a lot of different things.

00:03:06.840 But before we get into that, I'd like to know the story about how you got into the Mossad.

00:03:11.200 I know you were in the Navy before.

00:03:13.120 How did your transition from where you were at to getting into the Mossad, how did that take place?

00:03:17.400 It started when I was a very young boy.

00:03:22.580 In our backyard, we had the olive trees.

00:03:28.960 And next to the small village where I was born and raised, there were two Arab villages.

00:03:37.820 And during the season, our Arab neighbors used to come over and pick up the olives from the trees.

00:03:48.920 At this circumstance, and at the age of maybe five, six, I started to learn Arabic from our Arab neighbors.

00:03:58.320 And then in high school, I was in a class, which was a pilot plan to establish in the high school system in Israel,

00:04:13.960 a major studies of Arabic, language, culture, and history of the Middle East.

00:04:21.460 So I admitted and got shoes to this class.

00:04:31.160 And there where we really learned Arabic very intensively and history of the Middle East and so on and so forth,

00:04:40.740 which took me in the army after graduating from high school.

00:04:49.660 I went to join the army and they took me to what we call in Hebrew Sayeret Matkal.

00:04:55.900 Sayeret Matkal is a very, one of the most famous SWAT units in the IDF.

00:05:01.560 And one of the requirements then, at that time, and I'm talking about 58, after completing my high school studies,

00:05:17.600 Arabic was a requirement, one of the requirements in order to join this unit.

00:05:22.800 I served my compulsory service of three and a half years in the IDF at that unit.

00:05:33.900 And then I went to the Hebrew University.

00:05:38.240 At that time, we had only one university in Israel, the Hebrew University in Jerusalem.

00:05:44.440 And I took as a major those subjects as well.

00:05:49.840 So when I graduated from the university, I was loaded with the requirements that were needed in order to join the Mossad.

00:06:05.500 That's pretty intense to know that you have to join a military.

00:06:08.160 And in order to join a certain unit in the military, you have to speak a certain language or else you can't be a part of it.

00:06:13.940 Pretty intense requirement.

00:06:16.000 Yeah.

00:06:16.660 But it was an exception those years.

00:06:20.960 It was the only one place in the IDF that a foreign language was required.

00:06:27.180 Now, I read somewhere that you went to Harvard as well.

00:06:30.540 Did you attend Harvard University or no?

00:06:33.240 Yes, I attended Harvard University, the Kennedy School.

00:06:37.580 I did a master's degree in public administration, and it was at the year of 1985, 86.

00:06:46.820 It was a sort of sabbatical that I got from the Mossad waiting to become the number two of the organization.

00:06:59.200 I had to wait a year in order to get this job.

00:07:06.940 So they sent me to a sabbatical at Harvard, which was very generous of the Israeli taxpayer.

00:07:16.500 And it gave me a lot of knowledge and experience, and it was fun.

00:07:26.060 But it wasn't an assignment.

00:07:27.320 It wasn't like you were working.

00:07:28.760 No, no.

00:07:29.280 It was just you went to school.

00:07:30.920 It was a full-time student.

00:07:33.660 Now, let me ask you, you have a sense of humor.

00:07:36.660 It's very, from the moment I talked to you, even off camera, you have a sense of humor, which is beautiful.

00:07:40.900 Who were you in high school?

00:07:41.940 If you and I were in school together, 14, 15, 16 years old, who was Shabtai in high school?

00:07:49.360 I was a rather mediocre student.

00:07:56.620 I did not belong to the brightest and best pupils, but I got along quite well.

00:08:09.400 And I had a lot of friends.

00:08:12.720 And during high school, if you are smart enough, you find a way as how to get your first or second girlfriend.

00:08:23.960 And it was really interesting, yeah.

00:08:29.220 So was it just for your first, second, or was it like a third, fourth, fifth?

00:08:32.480 Which one?

00:08:32.920 I'm just curious which one you were.

00:08:34.300 No, no, no. 0.93

00:08:36.460 Listen, you are talking to a very mediocre person.

00:08:42.120 I don't think so.

00:08:44.580 Not somebody of the extremes.

00:08:47.540 Okay.

00:08:48.080 All right.

00:08:48.420 I mean, you went to be the director of the Mossad, which is pretty extreme career-wise,

00:08:53.620 is where you made it.

00:08:54.400 So then you go into Mossad, and you start kind of getting into getting different assignments,

00:08:59.400 the different kind of work that you do.

00:09:02.600 Did you at what point say, I want to go become the head of Mossad?

00:09:07.320 Or was that process of going, getting involved to the end of it, was that accidental?

00:09:11.700 Was it intentional saying, I really believe one day I can be the head of Mossad?

00:09:15.000 Or did it just kind of happen accidentally?

00:09:16.840 When I joined the organization, I intended to look at it as a lifetime job.

00:09:29.740 And from the beginning, I knew that I'm going to put in it everything and anything that I brought with me to the organization.

00:09:41.700 And as I remember myself, excellence was one of the virtues that I cherished since childhood.

00:09:52.200 So I knew that I'm going to, you know, in order to be upgraded and achieve such a goal,

00:10:03.280 it takes a lot, energy, dedication, and so on and so forth.

00:10:08.740 So I knew from the beginning then that I'm going to try.

00:10:14.580 And having said this, I want you to know that not only in Mossad, in other places as well,

00:10:22.260 luck is also a factor.

00:10:27.660 Yeah, I love your fire.

00:10:30.800 You can feel your fire and the ambition you had, but at the same time, you respect the fact that

00:10:35.080 there is a luck involved in meeting the right people and the right opportunities that come up

00:10:39.260 as you're working your way to the top.

00:10:41.380 What, you know, we spoke earlier and I asked a question from you.

00:10:46.180 I said, you know, there's nothing on you.

00:10:47.960 I have to really, I have to really work hard to find stuff on you.

00:10:50.960 I mean, don't get me wrong.

00:10:52.120 There's articles, there's a lot of stuff.

00:10:54.140 There's Wikipedias, there's speeches.

00:10:57.120 But I had to go in different places and have my research team work to find things on you.

00:11:03.680 Why, you know, our director of CIA has millions of followers on Instagram, social media.

00:11:09.980 Obviously, I'm being sarcastic, but what I'm trying to say is there's celebrities here.

00:11:13.880 Why is it that in your world, it's so low key and the culture is no one really knows

00:11:20.580 who's the head in charge of Mossad?

00:11:23.160 What's the difference in culture there?

00:11:24.760 First of all, it's, it was, it's not, it's not now.

00:11:32.780 Since the world has become completely transparent, changes occurred also in the Mossad and in

00:11:44.700 respect to the identity of the director.

00:11:48.300 But traditionally, if I have to define the difference between the director of the Mossad

00:11:58.040 and the director of the CIA, the latter is being nominated as a political nominee.

00:12:06.260 In our system, the director of the Mossad is being chosen based on his merits and his expertise.

00:12:16.000 Political inclinations and membership in political bodies do not exist in the consideration to the appointment.

00:12:30.360 And another thing is that the nomination of the director is being decided by one person,

00:12:44.880 which is the prime minister.

00:12:47.120 The director of Mossad is reporting only to the, directly and only to the, to the prime minister.

00:12:56.580 The prime minister is the direct superior of the, of the director.

00:13:04.460 So the, the, the prime minister is the one who, who, who choose him and the, usually the prime minister consults with the minister of defense and the, and the ministry of the foreign affairs.

00:13:24.460 And, and, and, and, and, and the relationship between the, uh, between the director of Mossad and the prime minister, uh, relationship, which, which, uh, uh, resemble any other, uh, set of, uh, relationship between any, uh, minister or, uh, general director of, uh, uh, uh, an organization.

00:13:54.440 In the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the sense that, uh, weekly meetings, uh, uh, um, confrontations.

00:14:02.540 And, um, between, between, between myself as the director and the prime minister, there was no anyone else.

00:14:13.760 So, so, so, you know, when, when you, when you read about Mossad and, and everybody puts them out there as the top three spy agencies, you know, U S's neighbors are Canada and Mexico.

00:14:26.020 Let's just say, right.

00:14:26.920 Okay.

00:14:27.120 We got Cuba over here, but let's just say U S and, uh, uh, Canada on Mexico. 0.82

00:14:30.940 You look at UK's neighbors, they're kind of by themselves and they got a few neighbors over here.

00:14:35.660 Your neighbors are Syria, Iraq, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia.

00:14:38.880 There's always conflict going on.

00:14:40.540 You're a small little nation.

00:14:42.240 You're not big.

00:14:43.560 You're very powerful.

00:14:45.420 The reputation that's been built is, you know, is one of a kind, you know, there's some of them even call you.

00:14:52.000 I don't know if you guys, you know, you like this, this reputation, professional assassins with a few boundaries and strike fear and opposing enemies.

00:15:00.140 And you look at the culture, uh, uh, and what it's known for, you know, uh, uh, bring injustice to those who have harmed the Jewish people.

00:15:08.900 Number one, number two, neutralized military threats to the state of Israel.

00:15:12.300 Number three, retaliate against the perpetrators of terror.

00:15:15.660 Number four, help Jewish refugees reach the land of Israel.

00:15:20.300 I mean, it's a very specific, you know, culture that you guys have, but I want to hear it from you.

00:15:26.040 What do you think separates the culture of Mossad, uh, uh, versus the MI6 or versus the, the CIA or any other agency out there?

00:15:36.960 There are quite a few, uh, topics which, uh, uh, makes the, uh, the Mossad unique as compared with, uh, with, uh, our, uh, partners, the, uh, Americans and the, and the Brits.

00:15:52.760 For one, the Mossad is, uh, is responsible of looking for the, uh, security of Jews in, uh, around the world, Jewish communities.

00:16:04.300 Okay.

00:16:04.980 One, two, the Mossad was responsible in order to, uh, bring Jewish people from the, uh, diaspora 0.87

00:16:15.740 who lived in countries where they were persecuted by the local authorities.

00:16:24.620 Uh, and I can, I can name you a long, uh, a long history, uh, since the inception of, of, of the state of Israel and even before,

00:16:34.080 that the, uh, the Mossad, uh, by executing all kinds of, uh, of strange operations and activities,

00:16:41.860 we brought, uh, the, uh, Jews from Iraq, we brought, uh, Jews from Syria, we brought the Jews from Yemen, uh, Ethiopia, Morocco,

00:16:52.260 and we also brought Jews from Iran after the revolution.

00:16:59.360 And, uh, since, uh, since, uh, since you are familiar with, uh, with Iran, the way we did it, in, uh, very generally speaking,

00:17:09.440 we used to, uh, move them from Iran to Pakistan and from Pakistan to Europe and from Europe to Israel.

00:17:21.200 And, uh, and, uh, quite a few, uh, Iranian Jews came by this way.

00:17:30.200 So, uh, this is another, uh, another distinction between, uh, between, uh, the, uh, the responsibilities of the Mossad

00:17:39.740 and, and, and the other intelligence, uh, uh, organization.

00:17:44.800 Uh, another, another, uh, another topic is

00:17:51.200 in addition to, uh, provide the, the, uh, state of Israel and the government of Israel with, uh, with intelligence,

00:18:00.200 we, at all times, we have to try and identify, uh, signs and indications of, uh, peace with, with our present enemies.

00:18:19.600 This is why, uh, the Mossad was involved very deeply with the, uh, peace process, uh, with Egypt,

00:18:26.600 which was the first Arab country that, uh, signed the peace treaty with Israel.

00:18:31.600 And the same goes for the peace with, uh, between Israel and Jordan.

00:18:36.600 The Mossad was instrumental and, and played a major role in these two pieces.

00:18:41.600 And we, and we, and we are, uh, uh, as I mentioned, we are expected, and it is one of our jobs,

00:18:50.600 to try and, and identify, um, indications and political changes in the region towards, towards peace.

00:19:01.600 Another, uh, another mission of the Mossad that, uh, today does not, uh, exist anymore,

00:19:08.600 was, uh, to chase, uh, um, German, uh, former Nazi Germans who were, uh, participating, took part in,

00:19:18.600 in executing, uh, Jews, uh, during the, uh, Holocaust.

00:19:23.600 So, uh, these are mainly the differences between, uh, us and, uh, the other, uh, intelligence, uh,

00:19:30.600 security intelligence organizations.

00:19:32.600 Shabtai, who, who trained you guys?

00:19:35.600 Because when I, when I read about the SAVAC, SAVAC was trained by CIA and the MI6, right?

00:19:42.600 Who, who trained the Mossad originally?

00:19:46.600 No, just, let me, let me, uh, head to, to what you just said about the training of the SAVAC,

00:19:55.600 that, uh, in addition to the Americans and the Brits, SAVAC was trained by the Israelis as well.

00:20:02.600 Now, we, uh, we were trained, uh, mainly by trial and error.

00:20:07.600 Because, uh, the Mossad was officially, uh, formed after the inception of the state,

00:20:14.600 but, uh, before Israel was born, um, there were, we had the, what was called the Haganah

00:20:21.600 and Palmach and all kinds of, uh, military, quasi-military organizations, uh, that, uh, performed,

00:20:29.600 that, uh, were acting in, in the, uh, in, in Israel and the, in the Middle East.

00:20:35.600 And on the, uh, trail of, uh, of independence, which, which, uh, which was very lengthy, um,

00:20:44.600 we, uh, we learned by ourselves from experience.

00:20:48.600 So nobody, so nobody, so, so the Mossad didn't go to another agency to be trained?

00:20:53.600 You just kind of learned on your own?

00:20:55.600 No, no, no.

00:20:57.600 But what, what mechanisms did you use?

00:21:00.600 What did you read?

00:21:01.600 What did you study?

00:21:02.600 I mean, obviously, you know, your motto is,

00:21:05.600 for by stratagems, you, uh, uh, you wage war.

00:21:09.600 You know, you guys are, you guys don't play around when it comes down to, uh, uh, being

00:21:14.600 strategic.

00:21:15.600 Is it, were you guys required to read the book, the Prince?

00:21:18.600 Were you required to read the art of war?

00:21:20.600 Were you reading Napoleon?

00:21:22.600 Were you studying what, what was the mindset?

00:21:24.600 Because strategically you can't just be born with that kind of talent.

00:21:27.600 Let's, uh, break down the, uh, the question to, uh, um, uh, to, uh, smaller parts.

00:21:36.600 As much as the IDF is concerned, the IDF, uh, uh, was trained, uh, by other armies.

00:21:46.600 Part of the training was by, uh, um, Israeli and Jewish, uh, uh, uh, officers who served in,

00:21:55.600 in, in, in the, uh, British, uh, um, army or in the American army and who, uh, came to

00:22:04.600 Israel, made, uh, immigrated to Israel and became, uh, became, uh, officers in the, uh, in

00:22:11.600 the, uh, IDF and they brought and implement, implemented, uh, whatever they, uh, whatever

00:22:17.600 they had, uh, uh, experienced before.

00:22:21.600 So that's how the, uh, the training, uh, of the, of the military started.

00:22:27.600 And then we, uh, the idea started to, uh, to establish a relationship with, uh, with

00:22:33.600 the foreign armies, usually mainly with friendly countries, the armies.

00:22:40.600 Uh, and, uh, and, and, uh, Israeli officers, uh, uh, were, were sent to, uh, colleges and

00:22:49.600 academies and, uh, and foreign armies.

00:22:53.600 That, this is not related to the Mossad.

00:22:58.600 The Mossad and the, uh, uh, security service, what we call the Shin Bet, which is the internal

00:23:05.600 security service.

00:23:07.600 We have grown up, as I mentioned before, by trial and error.

00:23:14.600 Only experience.

00:23:16.600 And the experience started, the experience started before the inception of the state.

00:23:24.600 During the British Mandate.

00:23:25.600 During the British Mandate.

00:23:27.600 The experience started prior to the inception of the state.

00:23:31.600 So, so let me ask you this.

00:23:33.600 The, the conflict between, between us and the Arabs started back in the, uh, towards the

00:23:41.600 end of the 19th century.

00:23:43.600 And at that time, in, in the tiny Israel, during the British Mandate, there were two different

00:23:51.600 people.

00:23:52.600 There were Jews and there were Arabs living together and having a conflict.

00:23:57.600 conflict.

00:23:58.600 And, uh, we didn't have, uh, uh, uh, neither the time nor the, uh, resources in order to,

00:24:07.600 uh, in order to bring, uh, foreign, uh, foreign instructors and foreign experienced people in

00:24:14.600 order to help us, uh, build our, our security and military capabilities.

00:24:20.600 We did it alone.

00:24:22.600 Um, and, and, and mainly through trial and error.

00:24:27.600 I mean, that's the, that's, uh, that's very, very, so I guess it produces, it makes me think

00:24:37.600 about a couple of questions.

00:24:38.600 Number one, when Mossad first got started, did the Mossad and Israel go recruit folks who

00:24:47.600 were Jewish from other countries who trained in their secret intelligence and military

00:24:53.600 and recruit them back to Israel insider.

00:24:57.600 I mean, how do you, but it's the reason why I asked this question is look, for example,

00:25:02.600 I'll give you an idea.

00:25:03.600 Do you follow sports?

00:25:04.600 Are you a sports guy or no, you follow any sports?

00:25:07.600 Okay.

00:25:08.600 Okay.

00:25:09.600 So if you, if you follow sports, if I'm a six year old kid today, I can steal Michael

00:25:14.600 Jordan's video plays by watching his YouTube videos.

00:25:18.600 You know what I mean?

00:25:19.600 If I play baseball today, I can watch and go study Barry Bonds, a swing or Ken Griffey swing.

00:25:25.600 If I play soccer, I can go study what Maradona did or what, you know, Zidane did or what, uh,

00:25:33.600 Ronaldinho does.

00:25:34.600 But if you're, you know, a new secret spy agency, there is no YouTube videos to study.

00:25:41.600 Who do you study?

00:25:42.600 What book did you study?

00:25:43.600 What manual did you study?

00:25:44.600 That's a pretty challenging thing to do when your neighbors are Syria, Iraq, Lebanon and Saudi Arabia.

00:25:50.600 Listen, today we, today we, uh, we are already, uh, beyond 70 years since the independence

00:25:58.600 of the state, even by studying alone, um, you can, you can reach a certain point of expertise.

00:26:05.600 And I, I don't know why I, to me, it sounds very, very typically, you know, when you, when

00:26:12.600 you mentioned that, uh, Jews from other places, it, uh, this was not the, this was not the system.

00:26:23.600 Uh, because, uh, uh, you know, when you, when you are in an intelligence service and you, uh,

00:26:30.600 you establish a relationship with, uh, with, uh, friendly, uh, uh, uh, intelligence services

00:26:36.600 around the world, the, uh, the main rule is, uh, that, uh, you don't spy on your friends.

00:26:44.600 So today we do have relations with other services.

00:26:51.600 We do exchange intelligence with other services.

00:26:54.600 We do meet with, we do, uh, we do, uh, organize, uh, uh, research meetings and evaluation meetings.

00:27:02.600 And, and we also, um, here and there, uh, participate in activities that resemble, um, the, the, the definition

00:27:13.600 of, uh, studying or upscaling our capabilities.

00:27:17.600 And, uh, but today when we do it, it's, uh, on a, uh, on a reciprocity kind of, uh, of, uh, uh, form.

00:27:29.600 Was there, was there a mastermind behind Mossad?

00:27:34.600 Was there like one big figure that you guys all looked up to and were trained by his beliefs

00:27:40.600 or training system and manual and, you know, et cetera, et cetera.

00:27:45.600 Was there some mastermind behind Mossad?

00:27:47.600 Historically, what I can tell you is that the, the first grain of the Mossad were Israeli soldiers

00:27:58.600 in the British army participating in World War II.

00:28:02.600 And towards the end of World War II, those people, those Israeli soldiers were assigned to find

00:28:14.600 and, and gather the remaining, remaining Jews from the Holocaust, take care of them in order 0.88

00:28:21.600 to bring them at the end of the, at the end of the day to Israel.

00:28:25.600 So this group of people were the first, the first grain of, of, of the, of the Mossad. 0.59

00:28:34.600 When they finished their job of gathering the remaining Jews in, in, in, in Europe, 1.00

00:28:39.600 bringing them to Israel then, and it was in the year of, uh, 51, uh, the Mossad was legally formed

00:28:50.600 and established, uh, by, uh, the then, uh, Prime Minister David Ben-Gurion.

00:28:57.600 And the mission at that point of time has changed from taking care of, uh, the Holocaust survivors

00:29:07.600 to an intelligence organization, which, uh, which gathering information on Israel's enemies, adversaries, and so on.

00:29:19.600 Got it. So, so, you know, uh, uh, there's not a major mastermind that was training everybody certain tactics.

00:29:26.600 It was an evolution of trial and error.

00:29:28.600 Yeah. Well, of course we can, uh, we can pinpoint to, uh, to, uh, um,

00:29:34.600 David personalities who were at the head of, of, of this organization since, since its beginnings.

00:29:43.600 But, uh, uh, I cannot, uh, I cannot recall of, uh, uh, any, any kind who was, uh, experienced or genius

00:29:55.600 to the extent that he could, uh, uh, form the organization from, uh, A to Z at, uh, at, uh, one point of time.

00:30:04.600 It makes, it makes me think because if that's the case, why aren't other countries a top three secret intelligence?

00:30:11.600 If they, if they can learn by trial and error, how come they don't make it at the levels that you guys made it?

00:30:16.600 It really makes me think about that. But let me ask you a different question. Let me ask you a different question.

00:30:21.600 So, so you've been, you've been a part of the Mossad from 64 to 96, that's 32 some years, but from 89 to 96, you were the head of Mossad.

00:30:30.600 And then obviously you've been retired now for 25 years. Has the enemy of Israel changed from 64 to today?

00:30:36.600 And what has that evolution looked like? Or have all the enemies pretty much been the same two, three, four or five candidates?

00:30:44.600 Well, the, uh, the world is, uh, is, uh, changing all the time.

00:30:50.600 Um, the world does not, uh, does not stand still for a moment. And, uh, the same goes for the Middle East and, uh, for the, uh, um, structure of, uh, of the, uh, conflict between Israel and its, uh, neighbors.

00:31:08.600 Um, uh, first of all, we, uh, we can pinpoint to, uh, the first, uh, peace, uh, agreement between Israel and, and, and Egypt.

00:31:19.600 And it, uh, it, uh, it, it was initiated by the, uh, war of 73, what we call Yom Kippur War.

00:31:29.600 The, the, the, the grains of peace with Egypt started with the, with the war of 1973.

00:31:39.600 The peace with Jordan was signed in 95 after, uh, five, six, seven decades of enmity and, and, and the adversarial relationships.

00:31:50.600 In Egypt, uh, listen, we can, we can put the line in, uh, on, on 47, for 1947 and 1948 as the baseline of, uh, the, uh, adversarial relationship between Israel and its, its neighbors.

00:32:08.600 So the main, the main, uh, the, the main and number one, uh, uh, adversary were the Palestinians who, uh, who shared the same territory with us. 0.92

00:32:20.600 And the, uh, main cause for the conflict was who, uh, who owns this territory.

00:32:27.600 And then Arab countries joined the Palestinians in the war of independence.

00:32:33.600 Egypt was the first one, Syria. 0.78

00:32:37.600 Jordan joined the, uh, the, uh, Palestinians.

00:32:43.600 And then we, we found ourselves in what we named the war of independence, which by, by the way, metaphorically, I can tell you that the war of independence has not yet finished.

00:33:04.600 Even today, we, to a certain, to a certain extent, we are still in a, in, in, in the, in our war of independence, as long as, as long as territory, the, the territorial question, uh, is not solved.

00:33:19.600 And as long as there are countries that don't, uh, uh, uh, don't, um, acknowledge the, uh, uh, Israel as, as, as, as a, as a sovereign state in, in, in, in the, in the Middle East, um, the, the war for all particular purposes is not yet, is not yet finished.

00:33:42.600 And then we, uh, the, uh, the era of, of the Cold War, um, and, and the wars that we had, uh, we can, we can say that, uh, every decade since the, uh, uh, beginning of the state, uh, um, every decade we had at least, uh, one big war.

00:34:08.600 And, uh, and, uh, in between we, we had, uh, all kinds of, uh, of, uh, um, small, uh, small military operations and skirmishes.

00:34:19.480 And, and then from a certain point of time, we had to cope with the, uh, phenomenon of, uh, terrorism,

00:34:27.480 which, uh, uh, um, which, uh, for, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, war

00:34:54.440 And then, during the spring revolutions, terrorism adopted the religious side of it.

00:35:17.060 And instead of being a civil kind of entity, it becomes a religious entity.

00:35:28.980 And religion turned the phenomenon of the terrorist phenomenon from a local event to become a global event. 0.63

00:35:40.700 The last development, of course, is what happened during the last few weeks or so, that the Emirates countries and Morocco have upgraded their relationship with Israel.

00:36:08.560 And it's a very positive development, which may affect the future of the region, maybe even towards ending the ancient conflict between us and the Palestinians.

00:36:37.600 So the situation is volatile, the situation is changing all the time.

00:36:46.780 And of course, it's not a two-party kind of a game.

00:36:56.500 All the Arab world, to a certain extent, is involved in it. 0.99

00:37:03.680 And then we have regional powers like Iran and Turkey.

00:37:10.740 And then we have the global powers, Russians, Chinese, and America, who are also involved in this playground.

00:37:23.040 So I don't know if I answered your question, but I believe that at least partly I succeeded.

00:37:32.000 No, that was crystal clear.

00:37:35.600 And it's interesting, you said Iran, Turkey, Russia, China, those are the four countries I have written down here that I wanted to ask you about.

00:37:41.380 How much were you involved in finding out, you know, even have an insider scoop on what happened with the Iranian revolution?

00:37:53.060 There's a lot of different stories when they talk about the overthrowing of Mohammad Reza Pahlavi and how right after the dinner with Carter, he leaves in 77, December 31st.

00:38:06.800 They, you know, toast.

00:38:08.080 And he leaves and almost riots, the protesting, the revolution begins.

00:38:13.780 And then 13 months later, a little over 13 months later, he's in exile and he's out.

00:38:18.640 And Iran gets, you know, turned over to Khomeini.

00:38:22.500 And things change a lot.

00:38:24.200 And there's a lot of different speculation on what took place.

00:38:27.080 You know, whether it was the, you know, the 25-year contract of oil that was coming up, you know, the consortium agreement of 1954 between Iran, Germany, U.S., U.K., and I think France.

00:38:41.820 And they had the secret meeting saying, let's get him to dethrone him.

00:38:46.340 You know, there's some tensions with what was going on with other reasons for Carter and Iran.

00:38:52.380 There's a lot of different stories that you hear about, but that's something that's close to me because I grew up, had a lot of different talks with people that were directly involved in that.

00:38:59.840 But I'm curious to hear from you because if you were involved 64 to 96, 78, 79, and you guys trained a lot of the SAVAC that came to you for training, there's got to be some kind of a story or, you know, or even factual reasons that you have on why Iran fell because they were doing fine.

00:39:21.420 It's not like they weren't doing good.

00:39:22.740 They were expanding, and all of a sudden they had a fall.

00:39:24.980 What do you think was the reason behind it?

00:39:27.560 You know, there is a, we have a saying that a man is close to himself in the sense that I can give you my personal experience.

00:39:40.460 You didn't mention the fact that I spent two and a half years in Iran in person, me and my young and beloved wife, since the beginning of 1966 to the summer of 68.

00:40:05.460 68, a relative long time before the revolution in Iran, but I can tell you, for instance, that, and we spend time mainly in the south, Abadan, Choram Shah, and the Gulf.

00:40:35.460 Those places.

00:40:38.020 And I cannot forget that prior to each and every Memorial Day to the sacrifice of the Shiites prophets, Hassan and Hussain. 0.73

00:41:01.020 And the government called the foreign people who lived at that time in Iran, and they asked the foreigners, please remain in your houses during those days of Memorial. 0.95

00:41:24.940 And I remember that when I faced this unique phenomenon, because I was not exposed to this kind of events before.

00:41:47.340 I asked, I remember asking myself the question, hey, how is it going to end?

00:42:01.000 Towards where this religious factor will develop.

00:42:11.700 And jumping from 66, 7 and 8 towards the 70s and the end of the 70s, we, and I'm speaking now generally, in general terms.

00:42:31.200 Our evaluation was that Iran is going towards a revolution, or the change of the regime.

00:42:40.080 We share this information with our American partners.

00:42:46.720 And I can remind you, I can remind you that at that time, the American ambassador was Helms, the guy who later on became the director of the CIA as well.

00:42:59.420 As much as I can recall, as much as I can recall it, the Americans have not accepted our evaluations.

00:43:14.040 And why is it so?

00:43:15.960 Because the Americans and other foreigners were exposed to the military capabilities of Iran.

00:43:25.180 Their evaluation was that the Shah was pretty much ready and capable to cope with any attempt of a revolution.

00:43:42.680 He was ready?

00:43:44.220 Ready, I mean, ready militarily.

00:43:47.560 Okay.

00:43:48.880 Ready militarily.

00:43:49.920 The one point which no one at that time, at least among the intelligence circle, was that what's going to be the attitude of President Carter.

00:44:12.740 And as I put together all the pieces, the Shah waited for President Carter to nod with his head like this.

00:44:32.880 And Carter didn't do it.

00:44:37.120 Not only did he do it, he expressed his objection to any military step supposedly taken by the Shah.

00:44:53.160 Do you know why, though?

00:44:54.180 Do you know why, though?

00:44:55.480 I mean, these are everything you said, you know, aside from the part where you guys kind of knew the revolution was coming up.

00:45:01.640 And you know he had a strong military.

00:45:04.100 The Shah had a very strong military.

00:45:05.560 He had a strong secret intelligence that was working with him.

00:45:08.400 The enemies he had at the time was Today, which was the Communist Party.

00:45:12.160 I'm sure you're familiar with the Today Party that was running around in Iran.

00:45:16.180 Folks who were leaving Russia and coming down with the Karl Marx book, Communist Manifesto.

00:45:20.920 And you had the Hezbollahs that were kind of growing underground.

00:45:24.280 He had 3,000 political refugees that he was keeping where it wasn't going to be too much ruckus going on. 0.93

00:45:30.440 He had great relationship with U.S.

00:45:32.240 I think he had a decent relationship with Israel.

00:45:34.620 So why not support the Shah and help them out to make sure they don't have the revolution that takes place? 0.75

00:45:43.740 Why keep looking away and say, no, wait a little longer and tell Kissinger, yeah, we'll help you, but not yet.

00:45:49.560 We'll help you, but not yet.

00:45:50.680 We got it.

00:45:51.300 We got it, but not yet.

00:45:53.220 Is there anything you know that we don't know on why that took place?

00:45:58.080 I cannot answer for the Americans. 0.95

00:46:02.320 I can tell you that the nature of the relationship between Israel and Iran at that time,

00:46:09.180 the relationship were clandestine, were secret.

00:46:16.500 There was no diplomatic exchange, open diplomatic exchange.

00:46:28.500 The Israeli embassy building in Tehran was a sort of an unknown place.

00:46:35.500 Iran was a sort of an unknown place.

00:46:44.500 We don't, we didn't have official relationship with Iran.

00:46:48.500 So we, even if we wanted, we couldn't, and the Shah didn't accept it, that we, had we offered him,

00:46:59.840 listen, we'll come to, we'll come to help you and so on and so forth.

00:47:04.880 We weren't in a position to replace the U.S., which was the number one ally who was a partner with Iran and the Shah. 0.64

00:47:24.000 What I did emphasize was that we shared our knowledge and assessments, which were based on Israelis on the ground.

00:47:47.080 At that time, there were a huge number of Israelis of all trades and businesses and activities in Iran meeting and doing business with locals.

00:48:04.840 And based on the feelings and personal experience of the Israelis, we reached the conclusion that there is something which is, which is, which is building up, which is growing up. 0.81

00:48:25.840 And this, it was not based on intelligence, because being allies of Iran, we have not collected intelligence on Iran those days.

00:48:45.280 We used Iran as a back base to collect intelligence on our enemies, Iraq, the Gulf, and Syria, and so on.

00:49:02.520 So what we did, we shared what we believed with the Americans.

00:49:10.520 We, more than that, we, you can't expect us to do that.

00:49:18.060 Did, did, was it more peaceful for you as neighboring countries, obviously Iran's not a direct neighbor, but it's in the Middle East.

00:49:26.940 Was it more peaceful for Israel and less turmoil with the Shah being in charge running Iran or Ayatollah Khomeini?

00:49:37.600 No, if it, if it, if it, if it were for us to choose, we would, we would, we would choose, we would choose the Shah, not, not the, not the, the Khomeini's.

00:49:50.800 Listen, Khomeini, Khomeini represents the most extreme group that exists in, in, in Islam. 1.00

00:50:00.240 The Shiites is the most extreme group in Islam.

00:50:04.960 They don't accept us being a, being a country at all.

00:50:11.540 They don't acknowledge our existence in the Middle East. 0.72

00:50:15.400 Every, every, twice a week, they come out with, with declaring their overall intention to obliterate Israel of, of, of, of the earth. 0.87

00:50:27.940 So, uh, the, the, the, the choice for us, if we, if we, if we could then save the Shah and, uh, Iran, we would have done it, uh, we would have done it, uh, uh, uh, gladly and willingly.

00:50:49.540 Um, listen, you are talking about, you are talking to a guy who was a big shot, but, uh, responsible on an, on an operation, which was maybe 10% of, uh, of the equivalent of the, of, of America and, and, and, and Europeans.

00:51:09.740 Yeah, it makes me, it makes me think if, if the, the, the level of turmoil on how it increased right after the Shah left, why, why would have some nations want more turmoil in the Middle East?

00:51:28.380 What benefit is it? Is it more powerful negotiation for oil? Is it more power to even, uh, have you need America more?

00:51:38.960 Israel need America more because now you got another person that's creating more havoc, which is Iran and Iraq war. 0.94

00:51:45.240 And you kind of got to be careful. Why, what is the real deeper motive of wanting? Cause if Kissinger and Carter know, if they don't help, shit's going to hit the fan in the Middle East.

00:51:56.720 Like, it's not like they didn't know about it. Everyone knew Khomeini comes in. It's going to be catastrophic in the Middle East, which that's what it could cost half a million people's lives, et cetera, et cetera. 0.99

00:52:08.160 I don't know why there weren't more people trying to prevent that from happening and, uh, why they kind of looked away. I'm always curious again, for me, it's, it's direct to me.

00:52:19.440 It's kind of like when for you, you'll, you'll probably read or watch anything that has to do with, you know, the Munich with what happened with the Israeli Olympians with what happened with the Holocaust or what happened with,

00:52:33.620 and I'm not making it comparable on the level of severity. I'm just saying like events that happened that affect your life or what Imad Mournier did, you know, the, one of the founders of Hezbollah that you guys went and eventually you took him out.

00:52:46.760 Those things matter to you because they affected your livelihood, your country, where you raise your family. For me, it was what happened with, uh, the Shah and Carter and, uh, Kissinger and, uh, a lot of these guys.

00:53:00.620 So, okay. Uh, so, okay. Uh, fair enough. I don't think, is there any other comments you have on this or no?

00:53:06.240 Yeah. Look, uh, I, I tell you what I'll, uh, what I'll do, uh, tomorrow. Tomorrow is the weekend.

00:53:12.980 I go to, uh, to, uh, Kissinger's memories in order to, uh, look for the chapter on Iran to, to read now what was then.

00:53:23.900 Yeah.

00:53:24.680 He's still around and Carter is still around.

00:53:27.140 It, it, it really, it really makes me think. So the last thing we talk about here, before we wrap up, you said a few things you said, you know, you have the smaller, you know, enemies where, you know, the wall of independence, a lot of them hasn't been done yet.

00:53:40.720 It's still going on, but then you talked about the bigger, you know, uh, potential, uh, powerhouses, uh, in the world. And obviously you're seeing what's going on with America with Trump.

00:53:51.060 Now, finally, you know, the transition is taking place with Biden coming in with Kamala Harris. And we saw what happened at the Capitol. Well, I'm, I'm sure you saw that in, um, uh, uh, in Israel on the news, but who you did, or you didn't.

00:54:05.060 Yeah. I did, of course. And I saw the origin, the CNN and Fox and the others.

00:54:11.380 What'd you think about it? What were your thoughts on that?

00:54:13.720 Well, I'm, uh, it, it made me, it made me very sad what I saw.

00:54:21.420 What, what, what do you think in the direction?

00:54:23.160 And, and, and look, being, being Israeli and, and I don't, I don't hide the fact from, for a moment that Israeli existence and Israeli security to a very large extent is dependent on the U.S.

00:54:46.300 I try to judge the events of the last few days through the prism of what is the, what is the interest of, of Israel in, in, in this, uh, development.

00:55:01.640 And I'm sorry to say that, uh, the first point that, uh, hit me was that, uh, America in the last few days, uh,

00:55:16.300 has lost, uh, it's, uh, it's prime statue around the world.

00:55:28.700 America since the end of World War II was the, uh, the, the, uh, lighthouse of, of democracy, of liberal democracy,

00:55:42.080 of marketplace economy, of freedom, of freedom, of equality, to the rest of the world.

00:55:49.660 America since the end of World War II, to this day, was the guarantor and the, and the leader of, of, of the Western world.

00:56:00.400 And after the events of, uh, of, uh, of, uh, the last two or three days,

00:56:07.440 I, I, I don't see how American can convince its other allies around the world,

00:56:19.600 and not to mention the, uh, adversaries, that the, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, best form of, of regime is, is, is, is, is democracy.

00:56:37.920 Pick any, any, any one leader among the, among the, uh, uh, Khamenei and the, uh, and the, uh, Erdogan,

00:56:53.880 or the guy in Brazil, or the guy in the Philippines, or the guy, or the, uh, the rulers of the, of the, of the Middle East.

00:57:04.280 And can you argue and convince them that the, that democracy is the, is the preferable and the best, um, um, um, um, regime

00:57:18.360 in order to, you know, to, uh, to build the world, to bring more harmony, to build equality?

00:57:24.560 What are you suggesting? What are you, what are you, what are you, what are you suggesting?

00:57:27.820 Is there a suggestion in that statement of yours?

00:57:30.100 Well, my, I, I, I, I, I, by far more modest than, uh, trying to, uh, trying to define the, uh, the future of the world.

00:57:43.740 But I can tell you a few words about the, uh, possible, eventual development in, in, in, in the Middle East.

00:57:52.480 Regarding the situation in, in, in the Middle East and, in, in, in, in the conflict between Israel and, and the, and the, and the Palestinians.

00:58:04.760 I believe that the, uh, that the, the, the development which took place in recent weeks,

00:58:13.280 namely the upgrade of relationship between Israel and the, and, uh, some of the Emirates and, uh, Morocco is, is, is, is good news.

00:58:24.800 It's very, is very important.

00:58:27.960 Uh, it, it, it, it, first and foremost, it transmitted a very strong signal to the Palestinians that, 0.91

00:58:36.620 listen, listen, guys, we were supporting you since 1945, till today, but the world today is not what it used to be or, uh, in, in, in the past.

00:58:50.480 And you have to reckon with, with the changes that are taking place in the, in the Middle East.

00:58:56.400 Now, Israel is not anymore our, our, our enemy.

00:59:02.000 Our enemy is extreme Islam, being represented mainly by Iran, who's pursuing a nuclear military capability. 1.00

00:59:15.920 This is the real threat now.

00:59:18.300 So, you Palestinians, it's, it's high time for you to, uh, change your policy. 0.89

00:59:24.780 And, and, and, and, but there is, there is an additional condition to, uh, uh, uh, to what I'm saying.

00:59:35.500 One is that, uh, the president-elect or the president, uh, uh, the president Biden should, um, adopt a strategy that the U.S. is not leaving the Middle East.

00:59:50.900 And not only because of, uh, Israel and the Palestinians, because of many other reasons, because of the, because of the security of the, of the world, because the, the Russians are, are competing with them, because the Chinese are competing with them, because America needs to go on leading the free world.

01:00:16.240 And, and, and, and, and leading the free world, it means to, to have a, uh, foot also in the, in the Middle East.

01:00:24.620 You should now bring in Saudi Arabia and, and, and create a new axis of U.S. leading Saudi Arabia, Israel, Egypt, and Jordan, with which we have, uh, a peace already, and the Emirates, vis-à-vis the threats of Iran and Turkey. 0.52

01:00:52.620 And within this framework, the Palestinians will, will be in a position that, whether they like it or not, they'll have to change their attitude and, and, and, uh, and policy, and to become a partner to a solution for the conflict with Israel.

01:01:14.080 Let me, let me ask you this question. Uh, would you put Iran at the top threat in the Middle East, or would you put, who would you put ahead of Iran? 0.74

01:01:22.620 Would you put them at the top as a biggest threat?

01:01:24.420 Iran is the, as a, as an Israeli, Iran is the top threat to the Middle East. 1.00

01:01:33.800 Fair. So here's my,

01:01:34.640 So here's my follow-up question for you there.

01:01:37.500 Go back the last four, uh, 12 years. Okay. Last 12 years, post Bush era, uh, uh, Obama comes in, Obama, Biden carried the $150 billion deal with Iran.

01:01:48.580 They negotiate and then boom, then Trump comes in, Trump comes and says, no, the deal is off the table.

01:01:53.480 I'm not helping you out. And then he puts sanctions on Iran. Iran gets weaker, 22, 21 nations in the Middle East cannot do business with them.

01:02:01.320 Banks stopped lending to many of the businesses there. Uh, how do you feel about the policies that was led with, uh, Obama and Biden and Kerry with Iran versus policies of what Trump did with Iran?

01:02:13.920 Forget the personalities, take the personalities out, take the Obama, Biden, Kerry personalities out, take Trump personality out.

01:02:22.540 I'm specifically talking about policies. Which one of those policies made the Middle East safer?

01:02:27.920 My personal opinion is the, uh, policies of, uh, Obama and, uh, and Biden to give $150 billion to Iran made it safe in the Middle East.

01:02:42.040 To, to, to, to, to build the coalition with the Europeans and to, uh, sign a, a, a, an agreement with Iran for, which, which, uh, gives us, gave us between 10 and 15 years, um, without, uh, without, uh, an Iranian, uh, nuclear bomb in the, in the Middle East.

01:03:08.800 So let me ask you a question.

01:03:10.100 Now, now, now, uh, now, uh, uh, I, I, I, I, another part of my, of my answer is a question.

01:03:19.640 When, when Trump decided to get out of the, of the, uh, agreement, um, did he really consider to, uh, to, uh, to go to war on this issue?

01:03:38.460 What do you mean?

01:03:40.920 I mean that Iran is, Iran is continuing to build its capability. 0.77

01:03:46.980 Two days ago, three days ago.

01:03:49.280 20%.

01:03:49.740 They announced the, uh, the rest of the world that they are starting to, uh, upgrade their, their uranium to 20%.

01:03:57.120 From, from 20% to 90%, it's, uh, it's a fortnight.

01:04:02.000 Here's a question for you, but here's a question for you to, for you, for you to be thinking about.

01:04:06.300 Say the 150 is given to them.

01:04:08.640 Okay.

01:04:09.520 Say the 150 is given to them to, you're kind of buying them to not work on nuclear weapons.

01:04:15.100 Do you really actually trust behind closed doors, Iran, and the mindset that they have where you don't exist? 0.51

01:04:23.920 Do you think behind closed doors, they're not going to be building a nuclear bomb?

01:04:27.120 You really believe that?

01:04:29.320 Oh, uh, the, the decision those days when, when, when, uh, when Obama made this, the decision to, uh,

01:04:40.900 to enter into a negotiation was either or, either I am ready to use force in order to knock them down similar to what we done back in, in 19, 1981 in Iraq.

01:05:02.800 Or, what's the alternative?

01:05:09.120 Buying time.

01:05:11.140 Time is, uh, time is the very essence, uh, uh, element.

01:05:15.700 The question I'm asking is, do you actually trust that Iran's not building behind closed doors, whether you give them money or not? 0.96

01:05:21.860 I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not trusting Iran, especially since I, since I, uh, used to negotiate in the, uh, in the Tehran Bazaar with the, uh, with the Iranian merchants. 0.98

01:05:36.000 Uh, so I, I, I recognize.

01:05:38.700 So you know they're good negotiators.

01:05:40.520 Wow.

01:05:41.340 They, they, they, they invented the, uh, negotiations, yeah.

01:05:47.060 So, so if you don't trust that, if you don't trust that, but I, I think it's naive to think that here's a nation that says death upon America.

01:06:00.100 I lived there 10 years, 10,000 men marching, flagellating their back, trail of blood on the ground saying death upon America.

01:06:08.040 And then they hate your nation and we give them money, even though just last week they say, screw both nations.

01:06:14.360 I don't, and then they're creating allegiance with China.

01:06:18.000 And in July, they're negotiating a $400 billion investment in Iran from China.

01:06:23.360 And you're looking at alliances being created.

01:06:26.340 Turkey is close to Russia.

01:06:27.880 I mean, you kind of saw what happened with Armenia and Azerbaijan, where Russia kind of came in and to try to settle things down.

01:06:33.940 And why, why strengthen Iran?

01:06:37.220 That concerns me.

01:06:38.200 And listen, this is a guy that was born and raised in Iran.

01:06:40.320 Iran, you know, I, I, I don't know if, uh, Iran's, even if you give them a trillion dollars, if Iran behind closed doors is not going to be building a nuclear bomb.

01:06:48.860 Listen, you, you, you, you look, you look me to a point where I have to ask you a question.

01:06:55.580 Please.

01:06:57.300 What's your alternative?

01:06:58.540 My alternative is when I asked you a question, if you had to choose between Khomeini and Shah, you said, of course, we would have chosen the Shah because it was safer.

01:07:09.220 It was more peaceful.

01:07:10.200 It was less issues.

01:07:11.260 My alternative would be if the Iranian people don't like the current regime, well, why don't you let them do today what they did in 1978, 79, when 9 million people revolted and there was a fall of an empire. 0.85

01:07:25.520 And then there was a different kind of a, you know, regime that came in.

01:07:30.560 Because if we go like this and the way you're shutting down people who are threatening to take your life is by saying, let me give you some money.

01:07:39.340 Like your kid says, if you don't give me money, dad, I will never love you.

01:07:43.780 And I'm going to marry the guy you don't want me to marry.

01:07:46.120 Baby, please don't marry that guy.

01:07:48.160 Here's a million dollars.

01:07:49.260 Okay.

01:07:49.460 I'm not going to marry him.

01:07:50.400 I don't understand that tactic.

01:07:52.300 I just don't understand that tactic.

01:07:54.160 So for me, you know, I would say, leave them alone, leave the sanctions, let them finally realize, look, we need to get our act together.

01:08:03.140 We can't be going around talking about threatening Iran and Israel.

01:08:06.380 And then they can come down and say, can we negotiate?

01:08:08.780 And we renegotiate.

01:08:09.820 And that pain could take 6, 12, 24, 36 months.

01:08:13.220 Not, oh my gosh, please guys, here's some money.

01:08:15.600 Stop killing people.

01:08:16.380 I don't know if that's the right strategy.

01:08:18.000 Again, I'm just a person that's doing an interview here.

01:08:21.400 I'm asking you, the expert, to see what you think about this, because I don't think the current approach of giving these guys money is an effective approach.

01:08:29.140 Listen, the people who listen to me, listen to you as well.

01:08:36.340 Let them judge between us.

01:08:42.040 That's fair enough.

01:08:43.020 Last question for you.

01:08:44.000 Thoughts on Soleimani being taken out and Mohsen Fakhrizade being taken out, the number one nuclear scientist.

01:08:51.220 When that happened, what did you think about?

01:08:52.920 Like, where did your mind go when you saw Ghassam Soleimani and Fakhrizade being taken out?

01:09:01.220 I'll tell you what went through my mind.

01:09:06.380 The notion that when we did similar or identical operations like this in the past, no one in the world knew about it.

01:09:23.980 Whereas today, those who does it, make sure that it will hit the headlines.

01:09:32.580 Very interesting.

01:09:36.920 Very interesting.

01:09:38.000 So, in other words, if you had have done this, you wouldn't have taken credit for it.

01:09:44.700 I would have.

01:09:45.380 And not only that, I would plan it in such a way that I'll have that deniability even after the event.

01:09:56.900 Well, then, you're in a league of your own.

01:10:06.280 You know, you're something else when you were the head of Mossad.

01:10:09.980 But, look, I got to tell you, I really enjoyed this time with you.

01:10:12.660 I appreciate you taking the time.

01:10:15.920 What time is in Israel right now while we're doing this, brother?

01:10:18.500 I'm curious.

01:10:19.120 What time is it there?

01:10:19.820 The time now is half past six.

01:10:22.660 Half past six.

01:10:23.400 Well, it's time for dinner.

01:10:24.640 Your family is probably waiting for you.

01:10:26.760 But I've really, really enjoyed the last 80, 90 minutes with you.

01:10:31.940 I appreciate your insight.

01:10:34.200 I wish you nothing but the very best.

01:10:37.880 But I'll give you the final thoughts.

01:10:39.060 What are your final thoughts here that you want to say to the audience that's listening to this?

01:10:42.040 I would tell them that the world we live in can and should be a better place to live in.

01:10:55.080 And at the end of the day, it depends on each and every one of us.

01:10:59.480 Had every one of us did a drop of good deed for that purpose, we would have enjoyed a better world.

01:11:13.460 But first, we have to give the corona.

01:11:17.640 Yeah, it looks like Pfizer and Moderna came out with the vaccine and they're spreading it all over the world.

01:11:22.100 So, hopefully, it'll get out there very soon.

01:11:24.120 Tell me, do you speak Fossey?

01:11:27.800 I do.

01:11:28.200 Really?

01:11:29.940 Yes.

01:11:30.800 So, I'll bid you farewell by saying Chudah Hafez.

01:11:35.020 Chudah Hafez.

01:11:35.820 Khayli mercy.

01:11:36.660 Thank you.

01:11:37.880 Take care.

01:11:38.660 Bye-bye.

01:11:39.400 Take care.

01:11:40.060 Bye-bye.

Valuetainment - January 15, 2021

Former Head of Mossad From Israel Reveals Their Tactics

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