Valuetainment - Former Mafia Hitman Opens Up About Dark Side of Greg Scarpa & His 20 Hits

00:00:00.000 My guest today is Larry Maza, former hitman for Gregory Scarpa, who was a former capo for the

00:00:05.780 Colombo family, known as the Green Reaper. Some said he stopped counting after 50 hits. This is

00:00:12.280 his protégé today. Some say he had over 200 hits. There's a lot of stories, speculation, AIDS, KKK.

00:00:19.060 Robert De Niro contacted through his associates to have Larry Maza help him out as a consultant

00:00:24.060 for the Irishman. We've got a lot of things to cover today. Having said that, Larry, thank you

00:00:27.480 so much for being a guest on VAIT. It's a great to have you on.

00:00:29.980 I'm so happy to be here.

00:00:30.840 Obviously, I've read a ton, and I've researched a ton on you to see what your background is,

00:00:58.500 and we've interviewed a lot of different people from your world. But for the listeners,

00:01:03.240 the viewers that don't yet know your story, kind of walk us through upbringing, where you're

00:01:07.660 from, and how you got connected to the mob.

00:01:09.760 Well, my upbringing is very, very normal, very basic. My dad was a lieutenant in the fire department

00:01:18.520 in New York. My mom worked in a bank. I went to Catholic school along with my sister and brother.

00:01:24.600 You know, we had, you know, really, it was no crime. I didn't have anything but a bright

00:01:31.760 future ahead of me. I played ball. I was a martial artist. Then I went on to coach younger

00:01:38.520 kids, my brother's age and younger. And, you know, just, I actually wound up going to college

00:01:45.720 eventually, too. And John Jay College, criminal justice.

00:01:49.140 Yeah, criminal justice is what you were studying. I saw that. Yeah. So I had taken the fire department

00:01:53.140 test. So growing up, I mean, nobody would have ever thought that I would have wound up in the

00:01:59.220 life I wound up in.

00:02:00.380 If I'm in 10th grade with you, who were you? You said ball, like you played baseball?

00:02:03.180 I was playing football, baseball, every sport except hockey, except ice hockey.

00:02:07.000 Were you popular with the girls? Were you the grades? Were you the bodybuilder? Were you the body

00:02:11.880 guy? Who were you?

00:02:12.980 You know, really a little of everything. We worked out every day. Like I said, I was in a karate school

00:02:18.460 with a champion kickboxer named Lou Neglia. Most people know who that is. I moved on to other places

00:02:24.460 after him and continued my whole life with it. I did lift weights. I played football. I played

00:02:30.140 basketball. You know, like I said, we did go to the weight gym every night. Eventually, I became a

00:02:37.940 trainer, a personal trainer. And I still do that to this day.

00:02:41.500 Personal training until today.

00:02:42.880 Yeah.

00:02:43.300 So you're doing all of that. You know, you're going to school, college, trying to be a lawyer.

00:02:49.100 Is that kind of the direction where you want to be more cop?

00:02:50.640 Well, I was taking police science, fire science. My father always said to me, whatever I do,

00:02:58.080 because I was the smartest one, he said, out of my sister and brother. They both became successes

00:03:02.620 in the real world. And I was heading towards success in that life until, you know, it all caved

00:03:09.620 in on us. But he said, I could have been a chief, fire chief. I said, I would have moved

00:03:15.340 right up the ladder because I gripped, grasped things without even studying. I didn't have

00:03:20.880 to hit the books for hours and hours and hours. I would go to school, take notes and ace my

00:03:25.100 tests, you know. So I definitely had a bright future, you know, and I was working. I worked

00:03:31.060 through high school. I worked through college. And that's sort of what led me into this other

00:03:36.120 life that I wound up in later on. And the life happens through you meeting Linda

00:03:41.900 first. Is that kind of how they do it? Yes. So what happens? How do you meet Linda?

00:03:45.880 Who is Linda? And what is your girlfriend? Linda, at first to me, was just a very beautiful 1.00

00:03:52.240 older woman. And I say that because she was a little over 30, maybe 31. And I was only 17

00:03:59.060 going on 18. So I was a kid. And I was working at a supermarket. I was about to graduate high

00:04:05.520 school and go on to John Jay. So on my route, I would deliver groceries to her house. And

00:04:14.100 then she'd come into the supermarket. Little by little, she got more and more friendly with

00:04:17.980 me. And ultimately, on one of the deliveries to her house, she really opened up to me. She

00:04:24.520 sat me down. She offered me a drink, which I didn't have. I had iced tea or something, but

00:04:29.420 she wanted a little vodka or something. I said, no, I'm still working. Naive kid. A few years

00:04:35.740 later, I said, oh, yeah, bring me the drink. I knew I had to get back to work. And ultimately,

00:04:42.260 she asked me straight out if I fooled around. And being so young and naive, my answer to her

00:04:48.200 was, I'll never forget it, because she busted out laughing. And she wound up telling her husband 1.00

00:04:52.920 not to fast forward later on about this. So I don't know if she's married at this time.

00:04:57.880 I says, of course I fool around. Do I look gay to you? I says, I'm not. 0.93

00:05:01.160 You told her that.

00:05:01.660 Yeah. Yeah. But again, you know, I was a naive kid. Didn't know any better. So she laughed.

00:05:06.520 Now, this is somebody you're attracted to. This is somebody that.

00:05:09.320 Oh, yeah. No, no. I mean, she's a beautiful, beautiful lady. 1.00

00:05:11.520 Nothing's happened yet.

00:05:12.420 Nothing's happened yet.

00:05:13.200 No. This was the first break. And then she says, well, she wanted my number. And I gave,

00:05:17.680 I gave it to her. And she had used a, if I ever need to call you at the store to bring something

00:05:23.080 over for me, would you do? I said, of course. Yeah, I deliver here anyway, you know.

00:05:27.300 Funny thing is, the next night, she wants me to come over to the house. And I got to go to school.

00:05:33.720 And I got kickboxing. And I got the gym. And I'm trying to tell her, no, I can't make it.

00:05:37.900 You're a senior in high school.

00:05:39.260 Yes. So I'll never forget. I'm in Bat Beach Bodybuilding on Avenue. Okay. And I get a phone call.

00:05:45.640 She tracked me down to there because she knew where I worked out. And I get a phone call.

00:05:50.840 Larry Mazza, you come to the front desk. You have a phone call. Okay. Who the hell's calling me to

00:05:54.780 the gym? I mean, you know, I go up there. It's her. And she wants me to come over after the gym.

00:06:00.180 I'm still trying to fight it. I says, I got to go home and shower. I got homework to do.

00:06:05.900 Long story short, I go home. I take a shower. I asked my father for the car keys that young.

00:06:11.420 He gives me the keys. And I go to her house. And that night is where the romance started.

00:06:19.220 Okay. She had a bottle of wine out. I remember there was a joint in the ashtray, which I had

00:06:25.700 never even seen a joint. What year is this? This is 78. Got it. 78. I never even saw a joint.

00:06:31.420 Till 78. Till that one. Wow. Yeah. And I was born in 61. Yeah. Yeah. So I told her the wine was good.

00:06:37.980 I had a little wine with her. And there was little snacks. The famous M&Ms. I talk about

00:06:41.940 that. Everybody laughs about it. But I remember that's what was on the table. And it was a

00:06:46.760 phenomenal night. You know, the chemistry, if you think about it, for a young kid like

00:06:51.160 that with a woman that knows the ropes already, it's just phenomenal. So that went on.

00:06:56.960 It's just like your professor at that time. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Somebody compared it to a movie

00:07:04.040 called The Graduate. If you know that movie from years ago. Yeah. Of course. That's mandatory for her. 0.63

00:07:08.200 Yeah. Yeah. It was similar. And, you know, at first we went on for weeks and weeks. I never

00:07:14.520 even cared. I had to assume inside she was married, you know. Eventually she might have

00:07:21.700 mentioned the kids. Something early on that I saw, okay, she's married. But I never really

00:07:26.300 pursued that. I thought that was on her. Maybe he's traveling. Maybe he's a salesman. Maybe

00:07:30.880 whatever. I'm just, you know, I really didn't care. It's not nice to say that. But, you

00:07:35.840 know, as a young kid like that, I was, it was. When that happened, are you telling that

00:07:39.640 to anybody or no? Like, are you coming back telling your friends, guys, you won't believe

00:07:42.540 what happened yesterday? No. No. But my partner, Jimmy, who worked with me, he came, he was

00:07:46.560 right through the whole book with me till the end, the jail time, everything. The war. He

00:07:51.900 was working with me at Danza's. So he knew, but it was unspoken, okay, when we found out who he was.

00:08:01.740 Which Jim, is this Jimmy, Jimmy, Jimmy? Jimmy. My partner, Jimmy, from the book. Yeah. Jimmy

00:08:05.280 Dumbass. Got it. Yeah. So he knows what's going on the entire time. He knows. He's the only one.

00:08:09.500 Others started speculating, some of my close friends. But once later on, if fast forward,

00:08:13.800 they knew who he was. Everybody just shut up. Nobody would even discuss it. But, you know,

00:08:18.180 Jimmy knew. He saw me with her in the store together. He knew I would, when it was delivery

00:08:22.980 to the house, I said, I got this one. You know, things like that. And he knew, but like I said,

00:08:27.520 it's unspoken. So now it turns into months. And we're getting really closer. We're getting closer.

00:08:39.580 I'm not going to say we're madly in love, but it's turning into a real, real feelings. And she starts

00:08:46.300 sobering up to me about her. She has a husband. So I said, yeah, I figured that. But, you know.

00:08:51.920 They didn't live together in that house, I'm assuming. I was, I never saw him there. Okay.

00:08:55.420 At the beginning. Okay. Like I said, it was about six months where we were just

00:08:58.500 living like it was just us two. I knew what nights I could come. Now, later on, later on,

00:09:04.720 I'm telling you how I felt at the time. Later on, as you start looking back at certain things,

00:09:09.520 those times I thought I heard a crack in the house, or I thought I heard something. She said,

00:09:14.060 oh, no, no, it's an old house. You know, it's whatever. The house is still settling. That's

00:09:18.220 not true. You know, maybe he was there. Maybe he was downstairs. There was a basement apartment

00:09:24.360 later on that I knew he would go into a lot. Okay. But while we're talking about this,

00:09:30.100 so people can understand, he already had another wife that I found out about later on. And I'll get

00:09:36.400 to that. So this goes on for about six months. And now she wants me to drop everything. I can't go

00:09:45.480 with other girls. You don't need school anymore. You're going to be this. We have a business where 1.00

00:09:49.760 opening up her husband and her, she's going to be the name on it. They want me to be the regional

00:09:55.840 sales manager. So she wants me to meet him. And she starts telling me he's an influential guy.

00:10:00.440 He can take you to a lot of good places. He knows a lot of people. I still don't get it.

00:10:06.720 I'm figuring, oh, maybe he's a big doctor or something, you know, that knows a lot of people.

00:10:12.740 So after a few more months goes by, still the same thing. I'm eventually to cut to the chase. I says,

00:10:22.320 okay, I'll meet him. I fought it for months. I said, I can't meet your husband. This is not right.

00:10:26.600 I said, now I know it's wrong. I mean, now you're bringing me to a whole different situation.

00:10:32.920 So finally, one night we go to an Italian restaurant. Okay. Well, before, let me tell

00:10:37.560 you what happens. I get to the house about five o'clock and I know I'm going to meet him this night.

00:10:42.900 Okay. And I still don't know what he is. So I'm standing at the front door and I did have a vodka.

00:10:50.020 I'll never forget that. I said, I'll have a vodka because I wanted to calm down a little. I'm going to

00:10:53.660 meet the husband of a woman I was sleeping with for almost a year. And I'm looking out the window.

00:10:59.400 I see a big black Fleetwood Brome pull up. Big caddy, spoke wheels, dark windows, pulls in.

00:11:08.740 And I'm watching. I want to see what he looks like at that first impression. He gets out of the car,

00:11:13.580 dark sunglasses. It's dark out at night. He's still got dark sunglasses on. Sport jacket,

00:11:18.560 dressed like, he once told me John Gotti learned how to dress from me. Okay. Later on,

00:11:24.300 dressed just like that. I mean, sharp. And I won't say he walked to the door because it was more of a

00:11:30.380 swagger. He had a presence in his walk that as he was coming to the door, it registered. I said,

00:11:36.580 this is not, because I had an uncle Albert who's around guys like this. And I said, this is no doctor

00:11:41.160 or salesman. I said, you know, and later on, I had said, if you look in the dictionary on the mobster,

00:11:46.580 there's a picture of him. Model, what's that other word? Just a perfect example of a gangster.

00:11:56.760 So he comes up the steps. I open the door and I put my hand out. I says, I'm Larry. He says,

00:12:05.320 I'm Greg. So we shake hands. He smiles. Very nice. Happy to meet me. But all along,

00:12:10.860 I thought his name was Charles. That's the first time I learned his name was Greg.

00:12:16.620 She told you it's Charles? She told me he was Charles. Got it. Okay. Charles Shearer.

00:12:21.460 There's a whole story behind that. And I, I, you know, it's not even my place to get into it,

00:12:26.200 but with an ex-husband or an ex-boyfriend, but he was Charles Shearer to me up until that minute.

00:12:33.820 So he goes in, he's going to freshen up, change a little bit, whatever. He goes in, I go to Linda.

00:12:40.340 I said, Linda, I thought his name was Greg. He said, he's Charlie. I, I, Charlie. I thought,

00:12:45.420 you know, she says, oh no, he just uses that name, Charlie. I says, people just use other names. I,

00:12:50.680 I, it's like, she said it like it's normal. You still don't know what he does. No, no. But like I

00:12:54.600 says, that strut to the house, I says, this is a man's man. I mean, it's a guy got it, you know.

00:12:58.980 So he comes back in and he has two scotches. Now I had vodka. I, even then I didn't want to mix,

00:13:07.360 but I didn't say no. I took a scotch and we sipped it together. We talked a little bit. He

00:13:10.800 started telling me about the company. We're going to meet these two guys. One's a lawyer,

00:13:14.500 one's an accountant. They were all on the board of this company. Very real. And it wasn't,

00:13:18.500 it turned out to be real. Uh, so anyway, that night I meet him and we go to the restaurant.

00:13:23.060 So she walked into the car. She goes to grab my arm and I had to move away from the lake.

00:13:29.960 Like what did he do? Yeah. He was in front of us. Let us walk behind him. Yeah.

00:13:33.640 So anyway, we get to the restaurant and I meet the two fellas and he doesn't recommend,

00:13:41.020 he doesn't say, I want to propose Larry to be the sales manager. He tells them both,

00:13:47.720 uh, Larry's going to be our sales manager. I said, okay, that's, I didn't even have a resume or anything.

00:13:52.940 You've never sold. You're not a sales guy. No, no, no, no. Well, you are now. Yeah. Yeah. So,

00:13:58.340 yeah. So, and you got a promotion. You were sales manager. I was sales manager right off the bat.

00:14:03.240 So anyway, after this night, I start working for him and he tells me I have to come to the office

00:14:09.640 every day, which turns out to be a social club. So I start meeting other guys and I'll get more into

00:14:14.160 that. But before all this happens, you know, I'm, I'm going out to different avenues. They give me a list

00:14:20.580 of addresses to go to where I can, uh, service their fire extinguisher and then try to sell them

00:14:25.800 paper products. And the, the, the addresses they gave me were all hot. I was going to get them.

00:14:32.700 I walked in, they were expecting me. I got the account. So I built a little portfolio right off

00:14:37.560 the bat. If they didn't say yes, or I went to a place cold, they told me you can go into other

00:14:43.040 stores in the same area, but start with this one. It's a yes. And they would tell me no. I'd go back

00:14:48.320 to the club and I'd say, well, these four guys weren't interested. And Greg says, all right,

00:14:51.820 Carmine, post Carmine in, Carmine gets the addresses, go back there the next day, go back

00:14:57.240 again tomorrow. I go back the next day. They treat me like, uh, I don't want to say Al Capone,

00:15:02.480 like a Senator, a neighborhood, uh, politician. Are you speculating at this time? Like what's

00:15:08.140 going on? Of course. No, no. Now I see the club. I know he's, I know he's, you know, he's

00:15:11.980 connected at this point. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Again, I know he's what he is. Was Greg a known

00:15:16.220 face and a name that you know, he's a low key guy. He's low key. Is he a cop? Well, at that time

00:15:21.540 or not yet? No, he never, I'm going to tell you, he never became a cop until the very end. Got it.

00:15:25.700 Okay. They bypassed him for his son. Something I thought they asked him about. Okay. And yeah,

00:15:32.320 Greg Jr. told me, no, they bypassed my father. And this discussion came because of what came out

00:15:38.020 years later and I don't want to tip my mic. Let's get to that. So, yeah. Uh, so, uh, now I got this

00:15:45.580 position. I see the influence. I'm getting these, uh, uh, accounts and this goes on for a few months,

00:15:52.040 but while it's going on, he's helping me, he's building me up. He's telling these other guys

00:15:58.060 about me that I'm his nephew and we treat him with, you know, I mean, it's, it's off the charts.

00:16:02.760 So I start feeling very, very guilty and I'm starting to tell Linda, we have to stop. We

00:16:08.580 can't do this. This isn't right. I mean, I, I, I can't go on like this. She's persuasive,

00:16:13.460 talks me out of it. We wind up making love and I'm back again. And it's just not like again,

00:16:17.880 that I wanted to get away, but I just knew it wasn't right. So finally she starts telling me

00:16:24.860 she wants to let him know about us. Okay. And of course I fight that. I says, no, I mean,

00:16:31.220 this, he's not, please. You want to get me killed? I mean, I, this is, I know it. And 0.92

00:16:35.640 she laughs. He would never do that. He loves you. Anything I love, he loves, you know, giving

00:16:40.440 me little hints that possibly he knows. And I, that point I have no idea. Okay. And I

00:16:46.840 still don't know the real exact truth. Okay. So we, uh, continue for a few more months, few

00:16:54.640 more months. Now he sees me getting erratic. I don't show up where I'm supposed to show up

00:16:59.640 because I think he's going to kill me. Okay. Was now I started seeing little things,

00:17:03.600 you know, guys get thrown out, kicked out, maybe cracked around, you know, not major

00:17:08.600 violence, but in the club, the office, I may see one of the Shylocks who's hanging 1.00

00:17:13.400 around, you know, grabbing a guy by the throat. So I know it's not a nice.

00:17:18.960 Nobody's gotten killed yet though. No one's gotten shot or you haven't seen anything

00:17:21.920 like that yet. No, nothing like that yet. But like I said, I have an uncle Albert who's

00:17:25.080 a dinosaur with the, uh, Colombo family. He went back all the way to Junior Persico's 0.88

00:17:30.620 rise. Uh, as a matter of fact, there's a scene in a movie, well, The Godfather, where

00:17:35.920 the guy's getting choked at the bar. Junior Persico was doing the choking. My uncle Albert

00:17:42.880 was in the crash car outside, you know, so in real life, in real life. Yeah. Yeah. So

00:17:48.000 he was tight with Junior from way, way back. Uh, so I knew it could, I knew there was deaths

00:17:55.040 and guys get killed, you know, Brooklyn, you know, especially back then you'd see a body

00:18:00.020 every couple of weeks somewhere, you know, it wasn't odd. And I didn't want to be one

00:18:04.000 of those bodies. I started getting paranoid. So what year is this? Is this 80 already or

00:18:07.660 not yet? Not quite. 79 ish. 79 pushing 80. Yeah. Okay. It's about 18 months after we met.

00:18:13.460 So you're 18 and a half, 19 at this point. Yes. Okay. Yes, exactly. And, uh, so now what

00:18:19.900 happens is, like I said, he starts seeing it. So he starts saying things to me little

00:18:24.540 by little. I don't like what's, what I see is something wrong. You got to talk to me and

00:18:29.040 I keep letting it go, letting it go. Finally, uh, there's one specific instance where I didn't

00:18:36.040 show up and he was going to hit somebody that night or they round up hitting him. All I had

00:18:40.260 to do was drive him downtown. Just drop me off. And I didn't show up. Okay. And I found

00:18:49.460 out later on a friend, Bucky, was killed that night. Okay. He was going to have me drop him

00:18:54.780 off there. And, and if you, if you follow the MO as years go by, they give you little, little

00:19:01.700 bit, little tiny things to do ultimately to bring you to a certain level where you're asked

00:19:06.860 to do more. So that little bit of a thing was his first step. Maybe he'll hear about

00:19:12.600 it. Maybe he won't. Very psychological. And when you, when you bring a kid in, okay, and

00:19:17.460 it's usually an influential male that you're, you're, you're, you're following that brings

00:19:22.500 you in. I got brought in by an influential woman also. So. 0.96

00:19:26.380 Like Scarful brought in, uh, Leonetti and Leonetti was also young and you know, he was gradually

00:19:31.480 getting him through, but Scarful was a, he was also brutal guy, but not 200 hits like,

00:19:35.800 uh, uh, Scarpa was Scarpa stopped counting after 50.

00:19:39.220 Yes. He told me that he stopped counting to 50. Then I heard later on, you know, higher

00:19:43.480 numbers. Uh, then when I was away with him and gas pipe, uh, on MCC, they were talking

00:19:49.300 about numbers between the two of them. Uh, they said, we got over 200 between the two of

00:19:53.660 us. That's where the 200 came from.

00:19:55.160 And is this organizing or is this a leading? There's a big difference to two, right?

00:19:59.340 What do you mean? Uh, so, so you, you, you say, you say you're for yourself 25 as you

00:20:05.460 were involved in, right? That's a number that I read about you, right?

00:20:07.500 Yes. What was, uh, uh, Scarpa's number?

00:20:10.140 He, he was a shooter. Okay. He never asked anybody else to do the shooting unless it was

00:20:16.040 for a reason to make their bones, to get them settled in and understanding they're capable.

00:20:22.200 He never asked me to go anywhere alone. Never asked me to do this. Never asked me to even

00:20:27.120 on a beatings. Well, beatings a lot of time it was Greg Jr. would, we, would be, he took

00:20:32.080 that as a badge of honor that he didn't relegate it or say, you will go do it. He says, he'd

00:20:38.400 get out of the chair, say, let's go, you know, and we'd go with him. Again, this is later

00:20:42.120 on, which I'll get to. So, no, but he was, he was a shooter on the scene. Uh, I've heard

00:20:47.820 about some hits that aren't even that public, you know, that, you know, the, you know, you

00:20:54.120 can talk about it now. Everybody's gone. Uh, I wouldn't hate to cause trouble for somebody.

00:20:58.880 That's why I say that. Even though I made a deal with the government, I'm not looking

00:21:02.060 to start trouble for people. Uh, it was never that way. Uh, but so anyway, going back to

00:21:07.780 this night, that was a pivotal night. He knew something was wrong with me. So she started

00:21:12.800 telling me again, we're going to tell him, we're going to tell him. And I made a comment

00:21:16.580 back then. I said, get me a bulletproof vest first, please, because you can't tell him.

00:21:20.120 I mean, you know, now he's got to kill me. You mean sarcastic or serious? I was half

00:21:24.120 serious, half sarcastic. You know, I just, uh, so finally one day I get to the house.

00:21:30.120 Well, what happens is the supply company has a big problem at the factory. It burns down.

00:21:37.120 Okay. To this day, I don't know if it was done on purpose. Yeah. You know, in hindsight,

00:21:43.120 probably, probably a big insurance check. Uh, it's the MO. Nobody really wants legitimate businesses.

00:21:48.120 Very common strategies. Right, right, right. So now I'm in no man's land. Okay. I, I left

00:21:55.120 college for this. The fire department test that I was very high on. I got a 99 on the

00:22:01.120 written and a 95 on the physical. Now 99 on the written, I should have got a hundred.

00:22:06.120 It really, it wasn't a very difficult test. I started saying, nah, they're trying to trick

00:22:09.120 me. And you want to know what one of the questions was? Okay. You're walking past a gas station.

00:22:16.120 You notice the pump is leaking. You A, stop and light up a cigarette. B, ignore it. It's

00:22:23.120 none of your business. C, call the fire department. D, all of the above. Obviously it's C. So most

00:22:30.120 of the questions were like that. And I was laughing my way through it. The physical on the other hand,

00:22:35.120 guys were throwing up at the end. It was very difficult. So 95, I'm proud of. Uh, anyway,

00:22:40.120 I'm high on the list, but what happens is that test back in the day. Now this is back in, geez,

00:22:47.120 81, 80. I took the test in 80, probably 79. When, as soon as I was 18, I took the test and it gets thrown

00:22:57.120 out because, uh, minorities had a problem with it and women with the physical. So a judge 0.99

00:23:06.120 in the federal courts takes two years to rule on it. Then he rules on it and sets another

00:23:12.120 test for two more years. So four years is going to go by before I can take the test again. In

00:23:17.120 that time, she knows I'm in no man's land. She tells Greg or asks him in front of me, we got

00:23:22.120 to find something for Larry. So I'll never forget the first thing out of his mouth was when

00:23:27.120 we could get him in the numbers. The number business is the lowest form of racket there

00:23:33.120 is. Nobody gets hurt. There's no credit. Uh, the biggest problem there is tax evasion

00:23:40.120 if you have a big number business. Okay. So I get in with them and they give me a few ideas

00:23:46.120 of how to build up numbers. They give me a few spots that already worked. And when I say them,

00:23:49.120 it's Greg and Greg jr. Cause they're partners. Got it. I start improvising on my own. I start

00:23:56.120 going to, and I'm already good with numbers. I was always good with numbers. I go to the

00:23:59.120 local OTBs. I know there's all gamblers in there. I go to the bowling alleys cause they're

00:24:04.120 all bowling for money and I'm picking up numbers and they're all giving them to me. Now I start

00:24:10.120 at the OTBs. I start taking horse action. OTB is off track betting. I don't know if you remember that.

00:24:16.120 Okay. Yeah. Yeah. It goes way back and it failed in New York. And I couldn't understand

00:24:21.120 how later on in life, how you're losing a gambling proposition anyway. So I start now

00:24:26.120 picking up horses. So now I'm bringing horses in. I'm bringing, and I still don't have enough.

00:24:32.120 I get the football tickets. Okay. The parlay cards. Again, lowest form of racket you could

00:24:37.120 do. But now I'm making 500, 800 a week back in 80, all cash. Yep. And I don't even have

00:24:44.120 to tell my parents I'm not the manager anymore. So I'm still making a living and they're not

00:24:48.120 asking any questions. And you're living with your parents still. I live in the basement

00:24:50.120 apartment. Got it. Yeah. And you know, so now there's really nothing looks out of ordinary

00:24:57.120 other than my first caddy. When I pulled in with the first caddy, I said, no, it comes with the company.

00:25:02.120 You know, and I've said along the way, I said along the way, and I don't mean it in a bad

00:25:07.120 way because I don't consider myself a liar by no means. I try to be honest and ethical,

00:25:14.120 whatever the word is. I got a lot of people that will attest to that. But certain situations,

00:25:20.120 you become a good liar like that with your parents, your wife, your girlfriend, you have to. So you

00:25:27.120 wind up saying things that aren't true and just living with it and going on, you know.

00:25:31.120 So anyway, I start bringing the football tickets out. Now I'm giving them to my friends to also

00:25:40.120 give out and also take numbers. They're all in different OTBs. So we're building a little mini

00:25:45.120 thing where now I'm bringing in thousands, a few thousand, two, three thousand in numbers

00:25:49.120 and horses and sports. The next level is now booking sports. Okay. Now this all took a little

00:25:55.120 bit of time. So, but this was how he opened the door for me. I'll never forget his words. Well, we

00:26:00.120 could get him in the numbers. He's telling Linda that to appease her and he gets me in the numbers

00:26:05.120 and I thrived with all of that stuff. So, uh, now this one day he's bringing me to the club.

00:26:13.120 Okay. We're in the car and he starts telling me, Larry, you know, I love you like a son. Okay.

00:26:20.120 You're very mature for your age. And I'm going to have this conversation with you cause I know you can handle it.

00:26:24.120 I know where he's going. I know where he's going and I feel the butterflies.

00:26:28.120 Linda's not in the car, just you and him. No, just me and him going to the club like every day.

00:26:31.120 We get there at 1230. The rest of the guys come at one. It's just cause he would be there already.

00:26:36.120 And sometimes one other guy was there, Bobby, but he wasn't there to stay. So we're driving there and I'm just being quiet.

00:26:43.120 I'm actually like looking out the window wondering, what do I do now? I said, this is it. You know, you're going to take me to the club.

00:26:49.120 And then I think I'm going to get killed. So he's just talking about it. Doesn't say it's going on how Linda cares about you.

00:26:57.120 And we're not that far from the club to the house. You know, if there's no traffic, it's less than 10 minutes, you know?

00:27:03.120 So we get to the club now and we walk in just like this. We're sitting like me and you.

00:27:09.120 He goes behind the desk. He's got his big seat and I got a chair just like this.

00:27:13.120 And I sit down and he's telling me, he says, I want you to know I know about you and Linda.

00:27:19.120 So I had a choice right there. Okay. I could have got up and run, you know?

00:27:26.120 Which I didn't do. But I said to myself, I'll never forget. It's my moment of truth.

00:27:32.120 I said, this, you know, I still care for her. I don't want it to be over.

00:27:35.120 And I looked at him. I said, these are my exact words. Okay.

00:27:38.120 I says, Greg, you're far from an idiot. And I have a lot of respect for you. You're far from an idiot. 1.00

00:27:46.120 Only an idiot wouldn't see this. He hit the desk. He starts laughing. 1.00

00:27:50.120 He gets up. I'm still a little nervous. We walk out together. He puts his arm around me.

00:27:55.120 Okay. We walk out in front of the club. It's just us two outside. This is a ritual for us.

00:28:00.120 He got himself set up. He put his paperwork away. You know, we go outside and we're leaning on the parking meter.

00:28:07.120 Okay. That's something we did. You know, we'd taken the son. And he goes on to tell me he's okay with this.

00:28:16.120 He goes, but the only thing is, only the three of us could ever know about it. 0.98

00:28:22.120 He says, if anybody else finds out, you and I will be killed.

00:28:26.120 Why you and I? 0.85

00:28:27.120 Well, because he's breaking a rule too. He's breaking a rule by allowing it. Okay.

00:28:32.120 And at that point, I didn't, I mean, I understood.

00:28:35.120 He's a made man at that time. He's a made guy. You're not yet.

00:28:37.120 No, no, no. He's a made guy all the way.

00:28:39.120 Is he an earner or is he a racketeer or is he more the buff?

00:28:43.120 He's both. He's both and he's been described by that by others, including like Sammy the Bull.

00:28:48.120 He's what he talked about our club. He says, that 13th Avenue club were racketeers and killers.

00:28:53.120 And it's a lethal, it's a little lethal, obviously, but it's a, it's a combination of the consummate.

00:28:59.120 That's the word I was looking for before. The ones that everybody looks up to and fears and respects.

00:29:03.120 Yeah. You know, and we weren't the only ones. I'm not saying that.

00:29:05.120 Sure. No, I get it.

00:29:06.120 But we were in that category. Everybody in there. If you're under Greg. Okay.

00:29:11.120 If he calls you with him, you're with me. Okay.

00:29:14.120 If he introduces you to others, even if it's a friend of mine at the beginning, you get the same respect as anybody does.

00:29:20.120 And you're expected to produce, uh, not only earn, but carry yourself like a good fella, even if you're not yet.

00:29:27.120 And, and, and eventually you're going to be hurting people and killing people just the way it is.

00:29:33.120 If you're in that club in a circle, it's going to happen. And it happened to me and we'll, we'll, we'll get there as we go.

00:29:39.120 So now, um, earning with him, I feel the weight of the world off my shoulders, you know, cause we're able to go on and we go on.

00:29:49.120 Are three of you ever talking about it openly when you're around each other or no?

00:29:52.120 Yeah. Yeah.

00:29:53.120 So, and let me ask you a couple of questions here. So, uh, uh, one, when I look at his background, he was married to Connie and they separated.

00:30:00.120 And he had been with Linda for 30 years and Connie, he had three kids. Junior is one of them. And with Linda, they had two kids, but I don't think they ever officially got married with Linda. Right?

00:30:09.120 That's true.

00:30:10.120 Okay. So they were not, it was, I didn't know that back then later when I found out it was just common law, but he never officially divorced Connie.

00:30:17.120 Never did. Okay. Yeah.

00:30:18.120 All those nights he was somewhere, but there's a third wife in there. You knew that? 0.99

00:30:22.120 Of course. Lily.

00:30:23.120 Yes.

00:30:24.120 Okay. The middle Eastern beauty.

00:30:25.120 Yes. Yeah.

00:30:26.120 Yes.

00:30:27.120 So a lot of times, not a lot of times, but several times I took him to the airport and she was in Vegas. So he'd be gone for a day or two. Other times he'd be picked up in a limo, uh, and taken to Manhattan. And I wouldn't see him for a day or two. So he was juggling to some point.

00:30:44.120 He spent every full weekend in Lakewood, you know, uh, with Connie.

00:30:49.120 Sure.

00:30:50.120 So, you know, it is four or five nights a week. I was free to, you know, but there was also later on nights where I said, I knew he came home and went in the basement cause I was there already. And we would, we would actually meet for coffee.

00:31:04.120 With the three of you.

00:31:05.120 Yeah.

00:31:06.120 Yeah.

00:31:07.120 But, but never the three of you at this, you know, there was nothing where, you know, uh, uh, uh, uh, three of you, other girls getting involved.

00:31:12.120 No.

00:31:13.120 That never happened.

00:31:14.120 Okay.

00:31:15.120 And that came up.

00:31:16.120 That changes the game if you guys went that far.

00:31:17.120 That came up somewhere once for a very short time. And I shrugged it off as somebody to write a book or trying to, uh, make right of something that was wrong, but I don't see how that makes it any better. I mean, you know, to each his own, but.

00:31:30.120 I'm thinking if you guys brought another person in to support the cast.

00:31:33.120 No.

00:31:34.120 Okay. So the reason why I asked, I'm trying to get the dynamics here with this story because, uh, uh, swingers, you know, you get the swings. I remember one time I had a client of mine.

00:31:43.120 I was doing business with them and I sold them to insurance policies and rolled over their 401k at the end. The guy says, what are you doing Friday night?

00:31:49.120 Yeah. Yeah. And I said, you know, I've got no plans. You want to come over? I said, what do you have in mind? My wife likes you. I said, you know, I like you guys too. You guys are good clients. He says, no, no. She likes you. And we'd like to watch. I'd like to watch.

00:31:58.120 Yeah. No. I said, okay. Was that then? Were they swingers type of thing? I never saw that. Uh, I don't, I don't believe it. Yeah. I don't think, uh, I think it was one of those, I'm going to say this maybe just a special moment in time where I think I helped him because he was juggling. He wasn't her age. Don't forget. He's 20 years old. 20 years older. Yeah. He's in his 50s. That's right. You know, did, did, did Linda know about Connie? Of course she did. Yes. Did Connie know about Linda? No, no. And if you want, and we'll fast forward again. Wow. Towards the

00:32:28.100 the very end when it all came out and Greg was in the hospital and close to dead, Connie got on the phone with me. Of course she knew I was his closest guy. Okay. He said it to everybody. At that point in time, I was the closest guy he ever had in this life, which was incredible. You know, and we were, I mean, went through the war, which we're going to get to. Uh, you're the only one that cried, right? That he told you. Yeah. When he got, when he got, when he got, uh, contracted the AIDS virus. Yeah. I cried. Yeah. It was like a father. My father would have, I would have cried too. I mean, you know,

00:32:58.100 uh, and he said that himself. He says it was incredible. He was touching Dan, but this is how we had gotten, you know? Uh, so I think I was helping him in a way. Uh, I think. In what way defined that? Well, that. Keep her busy. Four nights, four nights a week. He's not there. She's got to be wondering where she's a young girl.

00:33:20.100 So almost guilt. Now they're almost on even playing field. And again, this is all my opinion because it's never come out. It's never come out from him or her or anybody that they knew all along. And I saw little things that make me wonder if they knew. And maybe he did get turned on by it. I don't know. Or maybe not turned on by it. Maybe he, it satisfied him that a younger guy wanted his, his trophy so bad.

00:33:46.220 Yeah. When I hear stories like this, they're very random and weird. Right. Because, you know, when you listen to, okay, you know, uh, the, the graduate Dustin Hoffman, you're like, Oh, you know, like a young boys, you know, like dreams. Oh my gosh, that teacher. Yeah. It'd be, everybody has that one teacher. Like, Oh my gosh. You know, what if one day I stay after school, you know, you know, my father said, I don't mean to interrupt. Yeah. But he said, based on sort of what you're saying, he says, he doesn't know if he could have turned that down.

00:34:12.080 My father is just a legitimate tenant, great father, great man, never, you know, criminal. And he said, you know, so just on my behalf, he said that.

00:34:21.960 And for the audience to kind of have, get some of the optics, Linda was more like Michelle Pfeiffer from Scarface. Was she like the, is she that personality? 0.96

00:34:31.660 Without the drugs, without the drugs, but like extremely attractive, seductive and seen it. Okay. And, and, and, and love the life, love the money. Not that there's anything where everybody likes money. I hate when I hear that. But so, you know, uh, but she really, it, it was, that was all provocative to her.

00:34:48.800 Two other questions on this part here. One of them is, so it wasn't that this is pre the 30 of his associates coming and getting tested to see who's blood mesh to give it to him for the infusion.

00:34:59.360 At this time, when this is happening, he doesn't have AIDS yet. So this is pre him getting AIDS. So it's not like they're not having sex because he doesn't want her to get it.

00:35:07.360 And it's also not the fact that, uh, you know, in, uh, in bodybuilding, there was a guy back in the days, big time bodybuilding, Mr. Olympia guy.

00:35:15.440 When he got off of everything, he couldn't get it up anymore. If he took five Viagos, he couldn't do nothing. So there's nothing. 0.63

00:35:21.320 Even you could make a miracle happen. This was not his challenge either. It wasn't like, listen, I can't get it up. So, well, I'll tell you this much.

00:35:27.600 I'm just trying to address every situation.

00:35:29.000 And the reason I know that to some extent is there was a fourth woman that used to come to the club. Okay. And spend a little time in the office with him. 0.88

00:35:40.280 And when he would come out, I mean, you can tell he'd give me the wink, you know, Bobby would say something.

00:35:46.440 Bobby was always joking around, you know, he'd make a comment, something about the pipes getting cleaned, you know, he would just joke all the time.

00:35:53.660 She goes in with her hair fixed up. She comes back with a band.

00:35:56.040 And then later on, I heard from a relative of Briggs. I'll just leave it at that. Maybe she doesn't want her name out right now. So it's a girl that he had another kid with somebody right on 13th Avenue.

00:36:11.200 And it might've been this woman for all we know that used to come in. She was attractive too, but older, a little bit older, more his age. 0.63

00:36:16.840 So he was fairly active. I mean, he had a very high testosterone level.

00:36:19.800 I don't think that was the problem. But like I said, I mean, a 52 or whatever he was, you know, one is, yeah, but one is, is good. You know, if you have two, all right, but four, you know, that's, you know, it's, so there's a form of a, there's, there's, but the thing here, hey, and you got to watch this too.

00:36:37.880 Now I became close with the kids. I became Joey, the son may rest in Linda's kids. Well, I got close with all the kids, but that family, I became godfather to Joey, Linda and Greg's son. And that was, there was a reason for that. Other than it, you know, to us, it was always an important, important person in your life.

00:37:00.000 It's a little weird, I'm sorry.

00:37:02.300 It's a little weird, you know, you don't think it was a little weird.

00:37:04.580 No, I didn't. I didn't. I really didn't. Uh, I was actually honored that, you know, and, and in her eyes, maybe I was never going to have a kid of my own. I was going to be with her forever, you know, but I just always tell her, I want the son. I want to have a kid. I want to get married someday. And she didn't want to hear that. You know, does she love both of you guys equally? Or was it more like he takes care of me, but I love you?

00:37:24.200 You know, if I answer that, it's unfair. It's unfair. I don't think she didn't love Greg. I'll say that. Uh, I think she

00:37:32.200 is lost the word more lost between us, maybe because of the dynamics and the physical at the ages and stuff. But I'm certain she loved him. Uh, I'm certain he loved her, uh,

00:37:45.200 or cared for her or whatever the word is. Cause I, you know, and as years went on and when all the things went wrong in our life and I started looking back, I honestly don't know if he loved anything or anybody, you know, uh, like Greg Jr. I could see the love with his kids. I could see how he treats other people.

00:38:03.140 Did he come out already or he's, he's out, he's out. I've been talking to him. We got together a few times. Uh, how is your personality as the two of you guys to get relationship?

00:38:11.020 Well, very similar. He's, he's, I like to think I'm easy going. He is. Uh, he, he likes to laugh, you know, his father liked to laugh too. Uh, he's easy to talk to and he's caring. He's caring. Here's the perfect example. I had to borrow money from Greg Sr. probably 200 times as a kid, you know, not once did I not pay VIG.

00:38:34.420 Really? Yes. Not once. Even during the war, we had to pay VIG. We had no breaks, nothing. Okay. Greg Jr. on the other hand, I might've borrowed money from him three times. Didn't charge me a penny. Get out of here. He says you're my brother. What's the matter with you? And I'm saying to myself, well, I see you, you know, so you fell a little further than the, from the tree than people thought. That's when did Greg know about you and Linda?

00:39:00.420 Yeah. Greg Jr. Yeah. Oh, not until the arrests. We all got arrested. Yeah. And, uh, I exploded that out there cause I had so much resent for his father.

00:39:12.700 Scarpa. Yeah. Because ultimately he was, you know, a 30 year informant, which we'll get to, I'm sure. Uh, and I was fighting my case. Okay. Later on, I had no intentions of, I was going to make a deal, figure something out 20 years, 18 years. We're fighting it.

00:39:30.420 But one by one, the console year flips. That's Carmine Sessa, who I was fighting for. Uh, other guys, goodfellas and captains. Finally, it comes out that Greg Sr., my mentor, the guy that brought me into this, that everything is a government informer for 30 years.

00:39:50.140 Okay. And while I'm on the floor with the real boss, Junior Persico's son, Alley Boy, he tells me him and his father knew about Greg for 20 years.

00:40:01.480 Get out of here.

00:40:02.140 I, you know what, when he told me that, see the reaction you just had? That must have came on my face because he turned white after he said it. And he just knew he made a mistake.

00:40:13.260 Terrible thing to tell me that you guys knew. Whether he meant they surmised or they knew doesn't even matter. Because people say, well, maybe they thought. I've seen guys get killed for a lot worse.

00:40:23.900 So if you really thought it, that's enough to kill him. In that life, I hate to say it. Okay. I saw Greg. I watched Greg shoot a guy that called him a rat. 0.55

00:40:33.080 But tried to renege on it at the desk like we are now. I got up out of my chair. When this guy came in, he sat down. Donnie, his name was. And Greg took care of his business.

00:40:43.720 He took his money from the guy, wrote his name down, crossed him off the list like he paid. And he says, Donnie, what's this I hear? I'm a rat. Donnie turned white. He started sweating. He knew he was in trouble.

00:40:54.120 I was standing in the room with Greg, Jr., Carmine, Bobby, and one other person. Greg, Jr., Carmine, Bobby. Oh, and me. Four of us were in there.

00:41:03.060 There were four guys in the room. But I was sitting at the chair as always. I got up to let him sit down. And I would stand right by the door.

00:41:08.080 You know, until he left, I'd go back and sit with Greg. As soon as the guy said he didn't have paperwork, he was just talking drunk with another guy.

00:41:16.440 I don't mean that. You know better, Greg. You don't have no paperwork. You can't prove that. He says, No. Of course not.

00:41:21.980 But he reached in his desk, the drawer right there, popped him right across the table.

00:41:26.360 Killed him.

00:41:27.020 Yep. That was the first time I actually saw somebody get rolled up in a rug and carried out, literally. 0.86

00:41:33.960 And the funny thing is I had to go with Bobby to pick out a new carpet to put down.

00:41:38.480 And the color he picked, he's colored blind, Bobby. We didn't know that.

00:41:43.200 He brings an orange carpet back. The last carpet was dark brown.

00:41:47.560 Anyway, just something you never forget.

00:41:48.980 At least he didn't get white. 0.99

00:41:49.580 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I remember that was like a joke for a while.

00:41:54.020 But, you know, so.

00:41:56.800 So 30 years he's doing that. Persico and them know for 20 years.

00:42:00.180 Yeah.

00:42:00.500 When Persico, when this became public, like, I'm curious to know what the reaction was from even Snake from Persico when they found out.

00:42:10.780 Okay. Well, I'm in prison at the time.

00:42:13.400 Ten years.

00:42:13.620 I fight my case. Well, I fight my case. This is early on.

00:42:15.760 This is pre-anything. Got it.

00:42:17.660 And they bounce you around. I'm on the floor with Vic Arena, the number one target.

00:42:23.680 Get out of here.

00:42:24.160 And I'm saying they had separation.

00:42:25.420 He just got out. He just got out.

00:42:26.600 Oh, did Vic get out?

00:42:27.960 Arena?

00:42:28.200 No, no, no. No, he didn't.

00:42:29.820 He's got a hearing October 13th to see if he can get out.

00:42:33.780 Somebody else did get out.

00:42:34.940 No, but keep going. I'm listening to you.

00:42:38.600 I don't think it's Vic Arena.

00:42:39.580 I'll take it right now.

00:42:40.820 And I'm on separation from everybody.

00:42:43.620 I can't be with anybody from the other side.

00:42:46.380 I can't be with my partner, Jimmy.

00:42:48.280 I can't be, well, that was later on when he came in.

00:42:50.800 He was still on the lam.

00:42:52.040 Anyway, they put me on the floor.

00:42:53.320 Could be released.

00:42:54.120 Yes.

00:42:54.300 Could be released from prison.

00:42:55.540 Yeah, because I talked to his lawyer.

00:42:56.620 Yeah, could be released from prison.

00:42:58.000 I talk to his lawyer occasionally.

00:42:59.560 Go ahead.

00:43:00.360 So I'm on the floor with Vic, and he calls me.

00:43:04.440 And we're getting along.

00:43:05.340 You know, we know we're fighting the case,

00:43:06.780 and there's no reason to feud in there.

00:43:08.180 We're trying to help each other out.

00:43:09.600 He calls me.

00:43:10.180 I go walking with him.

00:43:11.060 I'm walking to the men's room.

00:43:11.960 When you go to the men's room with a guy, 0.94

00:43:13.120 they want to talk privately.

00:43:14.440 There's two other guys in there.

00:43:16.700 Mikey Day, a friend of mine.

00:43:18.200 I don't want to use his last name.

00:43:19.640 And another one, I could use his name if I could think of it.

00:43:24.860 He was the consigliere Lasterino for the Lucchese family.

00:43:31.100 So we go in the bathroom.

00:43:33.040 I say, what's up, Vic?

00:43:34.080 He tells me, he says, Larry, is it true?

00:43:37.340 I says, what are you talking about? 0.98

00:43:38.840 He says, Greg, is he a rat? 0.96

00:43:40.880 I started going after him. 0.87

00:43:42.460 That's why those two were in there.

00:43:43.840 They said, no, Larry, just hear him out.

00:43:45.280 Hear him out.

00:43:46.440 They were hearing it from lawyers.

00:43:47.820 They were hearing it from people. 0.99

00:43:48.980 And I'm fucking fighting it. 0.99

00:43:50.400 Excuse me. 0.99

00:43:50.920 I'm fighting it tooth and nail.

00:43:52.400 I don't want to hear it.

00:43:53.760 I said, you can't tell.

00:43:54.500 You know, that's not good for me either, you know, on a selfish note.

00:43:57.820 But so I walk away.

00:44:00.780 My bed was right next to his.

00:44:02.220 I took my mattress.

00:44:04.600 I went to the other side.

00:44:05.940 Okay.

00:44:06.320 And there's all Italians here.

00:44:07.620 The other side was mixed, whatever.

00:44:09.340 I would rather be there right now from what I just heard from his mouth.

00:44:12.420 Okay. 0.83

00:44:12.800 This is how arrogant I am about it.

00:44:14.980 At the time, the very next day, it comes out in the paper that Greg went in front of

00:44:20.660 the judge, okay, and he was pleading to be released.

00:44:26.460 He says, you know how much I did for your government all these years?

00:44:29.980 So he admitted it openly.

00:44:32.040 So the next day, I get called back into the bathroom.

00:44:34.220 Vic's got the newspaper.

00:44:35.740 So I looked at it, and they're asking me, did you know?

00:44:40.160 I just shook my head.

00:44:41.320 I threw the paper down.

00:44:42.140 I was distraught.

00:44:43.020 I walked back to my corner.

00:44:45.220 Funny thing is, I get pulled out of there, and I get put back on the floor with Alley Boy

00:44:50.760 and some of my co-defendants.

00:44:53.300 They were all on the same indictment.

00:44:55.180 So now we're talking about this, and Bobby, and guys can't believe it, and Alley Boy has

00:45:01.700 to be the hero, and he tells me that.

00:45:03.700 But I'm going to tell you a story now.

00:45:05.620 He said 20 years.

00:45:07.460 The paper said 30.

00:45:09.120 So in my eyes, there was an event.

00:45:11.300 I never forgot it, and I found out later on.

00:45:13.000 There had to be something that happened 20 years ago.

00:45:15.700 Because if he's a rat for 30 years, and you know something significant happened, later

00:45:21.840 on, I find out from an attorney, there's a big, big tax case, okay?

00:45:27.780 Timing is right.

00:45:28.840 It's in the 70s.

00:45:29.900 It just works out right.

00:45:31.800 Eight heavyweights from the Colombo family, including Junior Persico, his brother, Greg

00:45:37.020 Scappy, one of the Fuscos, some of the Russos, all the top names in the family.

00:45:43.460 Okay, and it's a big, they're going to face 15 to 20 on this IRS charge.

00:45:48.060 They all show up in court.

00:45:51.100 They get the hearing put off.

00:45:52.760 All eight of them are there.

00:45:54.320 They say, okay, come back, and maybe there's no violence, so back then they had bail, whatever.

00:45:58.180 You can't get bail anymore if you're a mob guy.

00:46:00.800 So they come back maybe four weeks later, six weeks later, whatever they put it off to.

00:46:05.780 They all come in except Greg.

00:46:08.220 Okay, they put it off again.

00:46:10.960 Another four to six weeks goes by.

00:46:12.480 They all come back to the hearing except Greg.

00:46:16.420 This is the third hearing.

00:46:20.800 The fourth one gets put back.

00:46:22.580 Again, they all come in except Greg.

00:46:25.980 At that hearing, the judge throws out the case.

00:46:29.160 Just throws out the case.

00:46:31.600 So something had to happen there.

00:46:34.700 So now either they turn...

00:46:37.480 Persico's going to know there's something going on there.

00:46:39.360 This is what I'm leading to.

00:46:41.780 He either decided that, listen, he didn't hurt us.

00:46:46.340 If he had a little connection, maybe he didn't really know how tight it was with him and his connection.

00:46:51.460 Maybe he didn't know it went both ways.

00:46:53.360 Maybe he tried to convince somebody that.

00:46:55.340 But now here's what happens.

00:46:58.100 He becomes...

00:47:00.020 He's a huge earner, too.

00:47:01.660 He's a tremendous earner.

00:47:03.020 Okay, so they don't want to throw that away.

00:47:05.300 But also, any precarious hit that had to be done, they came to Greg.

00:47:14.260 Not the one where you get your best friend or somebody that's...

00:47:17.380 Who?

00:47:17.760 Who came to Greg?

00:47:18.720 The Persico's. 1.00

00:47:19.500 True Scappy.

00:47:20.440 Yeah.

00:47:20.680 I remember Scappy coming in with different hits that had to be made, and they weren't easy hits.

00:47:25.460 At what level of hitman is he in the Italian...

00:47:29.060 Here's the thing.

00:47:30.180 We're not hitmen.

00:47:31.680 Right.

00:47:31.800 I mean, these people call me the hitman.

00:47:33.800 I was...

00:47:34.240 To me, a hitman does it for money.

00:47:37.320 We didn't do it for money.

00:47:38.740 We did it because it was part of the life.

00:47:41.700 If somebody broke a rule, you had to pay, sometimes with your life.

00:47:47.800 Indirectly, you're going to rise in the family and become a captain and make more money.

00:47:51.920 Who's most feared?

00:47:53.020 Was Scarpa in that level of fear?

00:47:55.960 He was the most feared man in Brooklyn, probably further.

00:48:00.920 And I've described him as probably being the most feared guy since Al Capone.

00:48:04.840 I've had guys come in that club, okay, that are known for chopping up bodies and all of this,

00:48:11.200 and they were very, very soft-spoken with Greg.

00:48:15.600 Never arrogant, never...

00:48:17.960 As a matter of fact, one of them.

00:48:19.380 He's dead now, so it doesn't matter.

00:48:20.600 Roy DeMeo.

00:48:21.640 He's the one that chopped...

00:48:22.840 He's here.

00:48:23.660 Everybody...

00:48:24.140 I was just going to bring him up.

00:48:25.700 I wrote his name down.

00:48:26.360 I remember, Greg, when we had a discussion about that.

00:48:29.420 Greg, like, got squeezed, cut up a body?

00:48:32.840 Why did...

00:48:33.280 You know, no, he'd rather leave him in the street and let them see, you know, a guy got killed.

00:48:37.160 That was it. 0.99

00:48:37.620 He'd kill you, and that's it. 0.99

00:48:38.540 He'll walk out, you know, and go have dessert. 0.98

00:48:40.680 These guys had to chop you up, get all the blood out, get rid of all the evidence and

00:48:43.980 this stuff.

00:48:44.580 That didn't make them any more brazen.

00:48:48.400 Greg would walk into a crowded restaurant and shoot two people and walk out.

00:48:53.220 No mask. 0.97

00:48:53.900 He'd grow a mustache.

00:48:54.560 They got these pictures of him, like, that's what he had.

00:48:57.320 He grew the mustache as a disguise.

00:49:00.060 He says, the first thing, I'll never forget him telling you, the first thing they'll say,

00:49:02.620 I came in with a mustache.

00:49:03.960 So don't be looking for a guy with a mustache forever, you know.

00:49:07.860 So he was...

00:49:09.620 So Roy comes in because Gregory and I roughed the guy up that was around him loosely.

00:49:15.980 He owed me money gambling.

00:49:17.300 We went a few times, and we didn't hurt him bad.

00:49:19.860 Put him against the wall.

00:49:20.880 And actually, Gregory did most of the talking because he was a little older than me and more

00:49:24.840 convincing.

00:49:26.140 And very soon after, Roy came to the club.

00:49:29.260 He comes in the back, and I had to sit there because I knew the details of the debt.

00:49:33.960 I'll never forget, Greg, when Roy was asking, you know, for, can we pay this off or something

00:49:39.760 like that, Greg looked at him and says, Roy, the streets are ours.

00:49:44.020 And Roy says, no, I'm not here to dispute that.

00:49:46.500 No, he says, no, Roy, ours, meaning wise guys, we'll take care of it.

00:49:52.080 You know, we'll take care.

00:49:52.820 We don't need you to make a deal for us.

00:49:54.820 That's what he's leading to.

00:49:56.000 We'll collect the money ourself.

00:49:58.020 He says, no, no, no, I'll pay it.

00:49:59.420 He paid the money for the guy and got him off the hook.

00:50:02.560 He was there to try to work out a deal.

00:50:04.740 And when Greg said the streets were ours, he, I'd never forget it.

00:50:08.220 He, like, was like, okay, yeah, Greg, whatever you say.

00:50:10.840 Now, not everybody would do that either, you know.

00:50:13.460 I saw Greg when I had a beef with Paul Castellano's nephew, okay.

00:50:21.140 He was ready to, he told Paul, if a hair is harmed on his head, I'll never forget those words,

00:50:27.660 you'll see more bodies in the street.

00:50:29.380 Scappy had to stop Greg from talking because he was going into a very bad area.

00:50:33.220 You know, you can't talk to a boss that way.

00:50:34.620 But this was Greg, you know.

00:50:37.300 Nobody was ever going to hurt anybody around us, touch us.

00:50:40.260 Even if we were told not to do something, Greg was the type, we're going to get this guy.

00:50:44.740 We might have waited two years, three years, five years.

00:50:47.200 We're going to get him, and it'll be off the record.

00:50:49.180 What was his personality?

00:50:50.180 Was he, I mean, I've seen his interviews, how he speaks.

00:50:52.180 He's got the nice voice.

00:50:53.320 Yeah.

00:50:53.620 Was he the charming guy that he's talking and he's kind of confusing you a little bit,

00:50:58.680 and then he takes you out?

00:50:59.680 Was he to the point guy?

00:51:01.280 Was he the charismatic guy?

00:51:02.700 Was he the fear?

00:51:03.620 What was his approach?

00:51:05.340 Greg was very, very charming and sophisticated.

00:51:11.100 He could talk with anybody.

00:51:12.280 I guess what I'm asking you is, like, you've seen him, right?

00:51:14.780 You know how sometimes the best way to know her to ask you,

00:51:17.700 the best way to know, you know, about you is ask her,

00:51:20.480 and she'll say, well, he's like this, and because she's been watching her most,

00:51:23.280 you've been watching her the most.

00:51:24.380 You watch Scarpa a lot, right?

00:51:25.940 Yeah.

00:51:26.600 What tale gave it to you where you said, this guy's about to kill him?

00:51:29.700 Was there anything that you said, that's his system, he's about to go to a point or take a guy out?

00:51:34.320 What was that tale?

00:51:35.680 Well, there's one thing that we had between us, and I learned it with him, literally the handkerchief.

00:51:41.100 When the hanky came out of his pocket and he went and made like he was going to sneeze,

00:51:45.660 I knew the guy was in trouble.

00:51:47.360 Because when the hanky went back in, a gun was coming out.

00:51:49.360 Or the hanky meant when he put it back in, he was getting hit, and we had to be ready.

00:51:54.740 You know?

00:51:55.260 He was getting hit. 0.95

00:51:56.460 He's going to hit the guy, and then we're going to finish him off. 1.00

00:51:59.140 You know, give him a beating. 1.00

00:52:01.340 But no, see, Greg, he could be two different people, okay? 0.95

00:52:06.080 Like I said, I have to explain it this way.

00:52:07.820 On 13th Avenue, when he was walking the streets, or somebody came in to see him, all business,

00:52:16.340 no joking around, steel, ice in his veins, and he could just look at you, and you're convinced

00:52:27.620 that he means business.

00:52:29.600 You know?

00:52:29.860 On the other hand, I can drive around with him once in a while, and, well, it's just 1.00

00:52:35.260 the two of us in the car, and I can say, get the fuck out of here, you're an asshole. 1.00

00:52:38.700 You know? 1.00

00:52:39.080 And he would laugh. 1.00

00:52:40.380 That's stupid. 1.00

00:52:41.240 Are you kidding me? 1.00

00:52:42.040 You know?

00:52:43.460 But that took years to develop.

00:52:44.640 That's only around two people, though.

00:52:45.820 You can't talk like that with other people.

00:52:47.200 Later on, Jimmy caught up to that, where Jimmy, because of what we did during the war, got

00:52:53.220 to that same level, where maybe not quite as much, but where Jimmy could make a joke.

00:52:59.860 You know, say, oh, yeah, that's smart.

00:53:01.380 Let's do that.

00:53:02.120 You know?

00:53:02.500 And then we'd all bust out laughing.

00:53:04.020 But, of course, never in front of others.

00:53:06.080 He trusted that the loyalty during the war between me, Jimmy, and Greg was just, you can't

00:53:12.180 even explain it.

00:53:13.220 You can't explain it.

00:53:13.980 The closeness, and, you know, we knew we had each other's back for our lives, so.

00:53:18.640 What's the ugliest you saw, ugliest hits you saw?

00:53:20.900 I know you saw the one guy that came in, he called him a rat, took him out.

00:53:23.680 Well, that's one of them.

00:53:24.720 That's probably right up there, because it was right point blank, and, you know, there was no,

00:53:28.620 we weren't prepared for it, really.

00:53:31.520 You know, the ones during the war, I won't really count, because, you know, I was part

00:53:36.140 of them.

00:53:36.360 So, I would say the one, really, that I didn't, I wasn't at, but I got the description, was

00:53:44.180 the girl that got killed.

00:53:46.000 Mary.

00:53:46.720 You know, that was Ali, Ali, Big Ali's girlfriend.

00:53:50.020 Just the thought of that, I still cringe.

00:53:52.180 I mean, it's a horrible thing to think about.

00:53:54.020 But I remember him telling me after that, he says, you know.

00:53:58.000 Vividly, like details?

00:53:58.900 Yes, yes, yes.

00:53:59.920 And he told me, what he also told me was, I didn't ask you to be on this one, you know

00:54:04.600 that.

00:54:05.240 And on the side, I'm saying, thank you.

00:54:06.620 I said, yeah, I noticed.

00:54:08.200 And he says, I know who's got the stomach for this, and who doesn't.

00:54:10.420 No other notable guys that weren't there either.

00:54:12.960 You know, so.

00:54:14.300 Who was there?

00:54:14.940 Do you know who was there, or no?

00:54:16.540 I know who, well, he was there.

00:54:18.240 Okay.

00:54:18.440 Carmine Sessa, who wound up being the consul a year later on, Greg Jr.

00:54:26.720 Think there was a fourth, I'm not sure, to be honest.

00:54:30.440 But the ones like that weren't, guys that weren't on things like that, well, myself,

00:54:36.340 Bobby Zam, I remember him telling me, Bobby loves people too much.

00:54:39.520 He also became a captain, you know.

00:54:41.480 So I said, anybody under Greg was good fellow material, possibly captain, but you can't

00:54:48.600 get to that.

00:54:48.840 What was the reason for Mary?

00:54:51.080 Well, they claimed that Mary spoke to the FBI.

00:54:55.500 He was on the land with her for years, and he didn't want to leave where he was, he was

00:54:59.400 safe, and he felt that she was, talked to the FBI, and she may tell them where he is.

00:55:04.500 So they claimed she was, you know, a rat, the big word they want to use all the time,

00:55:08.520 but there's no proof of that either, you know.

00:55:12.120 It was just in case.

00:55:14.740 And when he went away, when word came out that he's been dealing with the FBI for 30 years,

00:55:23.660 was that a byproduct?

00:55:25.080 Who got in trouble for that?

00:55:26.380 Like, who did he take down?

00:55:28.300 Because while he's doing this, he's still taking people out.

00:55:30.900 So FBI knows, you know, he's doing what he's doing.

00:55:33.220 Well, the ones that really had the biggest kickback was them at the end of the day, the

00:55:39.220 FBI and some prosecutors, and maybe even higher than that, for allowing this, for allowing

00:55:45.820 a guy like this to exist and give him carte blanche, where he can, you know, be a prolific

00:55:51.260 killer, not even a couple of hits here and there.

00:55:53.540 I mean, just, you know, the go-to guy in the family for years and years and years, numbers

00:55:58.080 that are unheard of, and so, no, but everybody, well, me and Jimmy got thrown under the bus,

00:56:04.380 okay, and his son.

00:56:06.780 Because, yeah, even Greg Jr., on the indictment that he went away for, okay, every lawyer and

00:56:13.200 every person that knows anything about the case wants to know why Greg Sr. wasn't the

00:56:20.280 boss of that indictment.

00:56:21.420 When is Scarpa's birthday?

00:56:23.360 Just curious.

00:56:24.140 May 11th, or May 8th, because him and Johnny Sapp.

00:56:29.580 May 8th, yeah, good for you.

00:56:30.700 Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:56:31.900 Good memory.

00:56:32.720 Yeah.

00:56:33.600 And my father's May 11th, and Johnny Sapp is May 11th.

00:56:37.400 That's why I knew there was a bunch of them at the same time.

00:56:39.200 I'm February 21st.

00:56:41.060 February 21st.

00:56:41.240 Yeah, 61.

00:56:42.240 So, 61 and I'll be 61.

00:56:45.720 That's cool.

00:56:46.280 So, yeah.

00:56:46.760 You only get to do that once.

00:56:47.740 That's right.

00:56:48.040 61, 61.

00:56:48.800 Yeah, that's funny.

00:56:49.580 Yeah, I have to bet that number.

00:56:51.460 Legally, of course.

00:56:52.460 Yeah, that's right.

00:56:53.340 So, yes.

00:56:53.780 That's right.

00:56:54.240 Please do so.

00:56:54.960 We don't want you to get in trouble.

00:56:56.800 So, yes.

00:56:57.440 Even though the odds you guys did was better than the odds they're doing now.

00:57:00.760 Yes, that's exactly what I did.

00:57:02.580 It's funny you brought that up, because I had the people who were betting horses.

00:57:06.400 I said, OTB takes 20%.

00:57:07.900 We won't do that.

00:57:08.960 Yeah.

00:57:09.280 We'll give you a higher chance.

00:57:10.620 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:57:11.320 So, okay.

00:57:12.180 So, now this whole thing's going on.

00:57:15.120 You go away 10 years.

00:57:17.780 During this process, when you're going away, and you're cooperating, are you cooperating to say what?

00:57:24.040 Well, here's what happened.

00:57:25.040 Here's what happened.

00:57:25.640 I was fighting and fighting and fighting.

00:57:29.680 My lawyers came to me several times, and I had no interest in going that route.

00:57:33.240 Again, not being a hero.

00:57:34.680 I just really didn't.

00:57:35.760 I says, I'm 30.

00:57:36.800 If I can swing.

00:57:38.280 I saw guys getting 10, 12.

00:57:40.420 They kept it.

00:57:40.920 You're not getting that.

00:57:42.120 They're going to start around 20 with you.

00:57:43.800 So, I said, well, fight it down to 15 or 16.

00:57:46.040 I says, you know, I'll get out in my 40s.

00:57:48.280 But when it came out about him, and I got those questions, and the next day I found out from Allie they all knew,

00:57:57.520 now I started saying, what am I standing up for?

00:58:03.060 You know, I was ready to take 20 years or whatever, you know, because I did take the oath at the end.

00:58:09.620 Regardless, some people don't want to believe that for some reason.

00:58:11.960 I don't really care.

00:58:13.440 But even without that, I didn't even need that.

00:58:16.980 You know, I would have preferred to take a reasonable sentence.

00:58:21.600 I knew I did some wrong things and have a choice to move on when I get out or whatever.

00:58:26.340 So, I didn't have that.

00:58:29.440 I didn't feel that anymore.

00:58:30.480 I says, now I've got to worry about my kid.

00:58:32.660 I have a year-old son.

00:58:33.900 So, I called my lawyer, and the problem was I had nothing to give to them.

00:58:38.780 Greg gave them everything.

00:58:39.880 Carmine gave them everything.

00:58:40.580 They knew everything.

00:58:41.880 They knew everything.

00:58:43.160 And it's something that's funny, I'm going to tell you.

00:58:45.160 Greg had told me years earlier that the day a guy gets straightened out, the very next day, the feds know.

00:58:54.440 I never forgot that.

00:58:56.380 But it came back to me during a conversation.

00:59:00.800 My lawyers are telling me they even know you're a little higher up.

00:59:04.100 He must have told his connection that Jimmy and Larry came in last night or two nights ago, whatever it was.

00:59:11.860 So, that's on record.

00:59:13.060 That's a documented thing.

00:59:14.280 I don't even, you know, whatever.

00:59:15.760 All along, I was trying to fight that because that enhances your sentence.

00:59:19.700 Oh, no, I was a nobody.

00:59:20.720 I was a bookmaker.

00:59:21.800 You know, but he told me that.

00:59:24.040 He says, so, what you can give them, they told me.

00:59:27.040 What do you know about the corruption?

00:59:29.960 So, I wound up knowing a lot more than I thought I knew.

00:59:33.660 And my manager over here, my wife, has told me she lived this part with me and said, there's got to be something you know in your head that you don't even realize you know.

00:59:44.160 Because they were coming years and years and just kept coming back and back.

00:59:47.060 But I had a secret frequency code.

00:59:55.400 Not me.

00:59:56.220 Greg had it.

00:59:57.020 Okay.

00:59:57.460 So, we were listening to the FBI do surveillance on us and our enemies.

01:00:02.500 We had nobody's going to.

01:00:04.580 You can't pick five numbers out of your head or seven numbers, whatever it was, and land on the FBI secret code.

01:00:10.380 We had it.

01:00:11.120 Okay.

01:00:12.000 We had he called.

01:00:14.520 We had these old phones.

01:00:15.600 Remember the old days, the big phones?

01:00:16.720 Of course.

01:00:16.980 Okay, before cell phones.

01:00:18.980 We used to call.

01:00:20.100 He used to call somebody.

01:00:22.220 I had those phone records because it was my sister's phone that I took for it.

01:00:25.680 She didn't know what was going on.

01:00:26.480 I said, I need the phone, you know.

01:00:27.720 And we would use the phone during the day and bring it back to her at night.

01:00:30.780 So, they had the phone records.

01:00:33.660 Okay.

01:00:35.300 We had FBI badges and ID cards.

01:00:42.020 Not filled out with pictures and everything, but at our disposal.

01:00:44.360 So, all of these things started leading them to the FBI, not a cop.

01:00:49.440 Then, a couple of the FBI agents put some pieces together.

01:00:56.580 This was one big one.

01:00:59.320 One of the under, not the supervisor, who was Greg's guy.

01:01:03.700 I'm not mentioning his name only because people know who it is and he did walk out.

01:01:08.260 He didn't get convicted.

01:01:10.520 So, he's the supervisor.

01:01:13.820 One of his agents brings in an address for us.

01:01:18.360 Brings in an address for Vic Arena's hiding place.

01:01:22.560 One day, Greg has this address.

01:01:25.280 And we can't ask too many questions.

01:01:26.900 You know, where'd you get that?

01:01:28.180 He says, my girlfriend.

01:01:29.160 That's what he always told us.

01:01:30.580 He had Vic Arena's address where he's hiding out.

01:01:33.620 We go.

01:01:35.280 It's an empty lot.

01:01:37.580 It was the wrong address.

01:01:39.880 Okay.

01:01:40.700 The FBI agent gets this wrong address, hands it to his supervisor.

01:01:45.160 The only other person to get that same exact wrong address is Greg Scropp.

01:01:50.400 So, there's the connection.

01:01:52.360 So, all this stuff, you know, I gave them led to other things too.

01:01:56.120 And there's a whole bunch more.

01:01:57.260 There's, I mean, a bunch of stuff.

01:01:58.480 You know, the times I took him to Mount Sinai Hospital to meet, and I knew they were agents or detectives.

01:02:06.340 Because he would go in, and there's a little square in the room.

01:02:08.940 I would watch him because I was concerned.

01:02:10.780 You know, I don't know if he's meeting all the wise guys that are looking at, you know.

01:02:13.480 And he would sit down, and I could just see.

01:02:15.780 And the way to, you know, you could tell.

01:02:17.320 So, I said, there's something.

01:02:18.720 That's when me and Jimmy started getting worried.

01:02:20.180 This is really tail end of the war, too.

01:02:22.180 Like, you know.

01:02:22.580 So, he was a magician, really.

01:02:29.540 He had everybody fooled.

01:02:31.780 Even that's what Greg Jr. told me.

01:02:33.940 Were you assigned on the Nicky Black?

01:02:39.420 Were you on that?

01:02:40.720 Yeah.

01:02:41.120 So, you were on that?

01:02:41.960 That was, you know, that was my hit.

01:02:44.300 It was personal.

01:02:46.700 Nicky Black was a heavyweight on the arena side.

01:02:50.560 He would have never been a big heavyweight, respected, with Persico.

01:02:55.360 But when he became a good fella, it was with the stipulation he would never rise above Soldier.

01:03:00.460 Okay, Jr. didn't want him because he bypassed other guys that should have gotten it.

01:03:04.640 The reason is he was heavy in the Teamsters and money.

01:03:08.480 Big money.

01:03:09.340 So, they protected him early on.

01:03:11.060 They made him a good fella.

01:03:15.640 So, he was never going to rise.

01:03:17.440 So, he chose Vic Arena's side.

01:03:19.140 So, as the war's going on, they're not getting any of us.

01:03:24.800 Unfortunately, most of our guys were hiding.

01:03:26.740 So, I don't mean Greg's crew.

01:03:28.900 There was a media crew, and then there was me, him, and Jimmy.

01:03:31.100 We were out on the front lines every day.

01:03:33.500 And Nicky made a comment to my Uncle Albert, who I mentioned before, who was under him, 0.85

01:03:39.280 that tell your nephew, Butchie, that was my nickname from a kid, if he doesn't come over to our side, I'm going to kill him.

01:03:47.000 Who's saying this? 0.99

01:03:47.600 Nicky Black.

01:03:48.080 Now, he's telling my Uncle Albert, my godfather, my mom is the sister.

01:03:54.680 That's blood.

01:03:55.340 I mean, that's tight.

01:03:56.080 You're telling him that.

01:03:57.220 And my uncle has done more work than Nicky.

01:03:59.680 May he rest in peace, my uncle.

01:04:03.240 Albert's done more work than Nicky, your uncle.

01:04:05.460 By far.

01:04:06.380 By far.

01:04:06.980 Yeah.

01:04:07.500 Yeah.

01:04:08.240 He was very well respected.

01:04:09.520 Did you know that?

01:04:10.260 Did you know that as a kid?

01:04:10.960 I learned more and more.

01:04:12.040 Okay.

01:04:12.380 I didn't early on, but even Greg told me, your uncle was with Sally D.

01:04:15.860 On this one, he was with Sally D.

01:04:17.460 Sally D'Ambrosio was a big name back then, too.

01:04:19.840 Him, Sally, and Junior Persico did a lot of damage in the early years.

01:04:24.560 Okay.

01:04:24.980 And they went through wars together, too.

01:04:26.580 So, anyway, where were we with this?

01:04:30.080 Nicky Black.

01:04:30.640 Nicky Black, yeah. 0.98

01:04:31.360 He tells, if he doesn't come join us, I'm going to whack him. 1.00

01:04:34.200 I'm going to kill him. 1.00

01:04:34.680 So, now, Carmine Sessa calls us, beeps us. 0.99

01:04:37.900 We had these beepers back in the day, and we had codes, and we,

01:04:40.680 that's Carmine, let's meet him at Nathan's.

01:04:42.340 The code told us that.

01:04:43.540 So, we were going to meet him, and he told us the same thing that,

01:04:49.180 well, he's the first one to tell us that, okay?

01:04:52.980 That he has a guy in the club, and Nicky's going to feel.

01:04:56.880 His thing is, if he gets me and Jimmy, or me or Jimmy, we crack.

01:05:02.100 And there's nobody out there doing anything other than us, and, you know, that would leave Greg with nobody.

01:05:08.500 And they'd win the war.

01:05:09.320 So, they were also case in Jimmy's tuxedo place.

01:05:14.040 Some of Nicky's boys.

01:05:15.600 So, that's much as true.

01:05:16.740 But, that night, I go to my Uncle Albert's house, and I says, we heard this.

01:05:20.440 He says, it's true.

01:05:22.220 He says, be careful.

01:05:23.680 He says, but, I'll never forget this.

01:05:25.820 He looked at me and says, but, Butchie, blood is sticking in water.

01:05:28.880 In other words, I didn't have nothing to worry about with him.

01:05:30.920 He says, but it is true. 1.00

01:05:32.040 He's, you know, be careful.

01:05:33.620 So, I says, okay, thank you.

01:05:34.980 We left.

01:05:36.080 I think it was the next day, but maybe two days.

01:05:39.240 Me and Jimmy differ on this when we talk about it once in a while.

01:05:41.860 I could have sworn it was the very next day.

01:05:43.420 But, maybe the next day, we didn't come into Brooklyn.

01:05:45.640 The next time we came into Brooklyn, we go back to our spot.

01:05:49.340 We've got two clubs we can watch.

01:05:51.020 Nicky's, Funzies, and a couple of other businesses that we know they come in and have.

01:05:55.640 I got the binoculars, and we're about half a block, three-quarters of a block away.

01:06:00.660 And I see the Toyota pull up.

01:06:03.240 And I say, there's Nicky Black.

01:06:05.340 I'll never forget it.

01:06:06.800 And Greg says, where?

01:06:08.800 Let's get him.

01:06:09.840 Like, just, and I think I put in the book, because in hindsight, it was like, we found our lost dog.

01:06:16.300 There it is.

01:06:17.060 You know, it was like, there he is. 0.99

01:06:19.380 We're going to go kill him, and it was just so normal. 0.98

01:06:21.140 It's unbelievable. 1.00

01:06:22.840 So, we start rolling down the block.

01:06:25.440 And he pulls out, makes a whole four-way turn.

01:06:29.420 He's coming back the other way.

01:06:30.900 We're behind him.

01:06:31.960 And Jimmy's sizing it up.

01:06:33.560 We have a fake siren in the window, some coffee cups.

01:06:36.980 We want them to look like the binoculars are sitting up there.

01:06:39.700 So, it looks like we're law.

01:06:41.320 And to this day, I believe that's what he thought.

01:06:43.620 Because, during a war, how can you let a car pull up alongside of you without even looking?

01:06:49.320 And he was, like, sort of stiff.

01:06:50.420 Like, he was telling his, they're pulling up now.

01:06:52.920 They're going to pinch us.

01:06:53.600 Something like that.

01:06:54.320 You know?

01:06:54.760 It had to be.

01:06:56.140 We pull up.

01:06:57.960 I'm in the back seat.

01:06:59.080 Greg is in the front seat.

01:07:00.340 Now, Greg, at this point, was getting a little slow between the AIDS and dementia and stuff.

01:07:05.940 He wasn't 100%.

01:07:07.220 He had one gun on the previous attempt with Joe Waverly.

01:07:13.440 It jammed up. 0.94

01:07:14.880 And then my, it was ridiculous. 0.75

01:07:16.560 That was an embarrassment, that one. 0.96

01:07:18.180 So, he gets the rifle out.

01:07:21.460 He hits the wrong clip.

01:07:22.520 But I'm also with a shotgun coming out the back window.

01:07:25.460 And all I hear is his bullets falling out.

01:07:28.120 He had the wrong clip.

01:07:28.960 So, the bullets came out.

01:07:30.560 And the, he didn't hit the lock thing.

01:07:33.820 So, I leaned over.

01:07:35.140 And I, I mean, he never looked.

01:07:36.640 I was really, literally a few inches from what Greg told me to trademark it, his trademark behind the ear.

01:07:43.520 So, it entered here.

01:07:45.420 Came out his face.

01:07:46.500 I mean, it was, that's probably the most horrendous hit of all that I was ever around.

01:07:50.680 But driving away, I, I've said this.

01:07:54.860 I said, you know, I'm not proud of anything.

01:07:57.120 I did any of the hits earlier during the war.

01:08:00.380 The war was self-preservation.

01:08:02.440 This was self-defense to me.

01:08:04.680 He's a capable guy.

01:08:06.020 He's talking to me, number one.

01:08:08.000 What am I going to do, run away?

01:08:09.820 Most people would say, yeah, just leave.

01:08:11.820 But being with Greg and being in the life, and I, I couldn't.

01:08:15.700 So, he, you know, that one, to this day, he, I say, he should have just behaved himself, kept his mouth shut, or came and did it.

01:08:22.840 You alerted me, and then what did you expect?

01:08:25.700 You know.

01:08:27.560 That's wild.

01:08:28.260 Because even Nicky Black, when you talk Nicky Black, there's, you know, he has a, he has a reputation.

01:08:33.340 Nicky Black was still Nicky Black.

01:08:34.680 Yeah, no doubt.

01:08:35.260 Did you have any running with Sammy, with Michael, with any of those guys, or no?

01:08:38.780 Did you have anything to do with them?

01:08:40.900 The only thing with Sammy was, during the war, we knew that, because we had people that were siding with us, even around John Gotti, even though he was with Vic, or siding with Vic, that Vic went to John to help with getting Greg.

01:08:56.820 First of all, that's an embarrassment for Vic to do that.

01:08:59.340 Go outside to family for help?

01:09:00.720 You should be ashamed of yourself.

01:09:01.720 You're the boss.

01:09:02.260 That's the first thing.

01:09:03.640 Then John tells Sammy to do it.

01:09:07.460 We heard all this.

01:09:08.440 We knew this.

01:09:09.140 So now, little by little, we're seeing guys from Sammy stop in to see us in the pool room.

01:09:14.620 While they're in there, we got four guys at the front table with guns and shotguns.

01:09:18.580 If they would have even made any kind of move, they would have never walked out of there.

01:09:21.400 We knew.

01:09:22.060 We knew that they were asked to do this.

01:09:26.240 But it never, it never came through.

01:09:28.600 But I had this conversation with Sammy about this, you know, maybe a year ago.

01:09:33.740 And I said, you should think about this.

01:09:36.420 You're his underboss.

01:09:37.520 You're his number one guy, his best guy, the most trusted guy. 1.00

01:09:42.140 He's going to send you into the lion's den to kill a guy like Greg during the war with all his men around armed.

01:09:49.280 Why was he putting you in that position? 0.99

01:09:51.700 Think about that.

01:09:52.520 That's the treachery.

01:09:53.920 He might have wanted to get him out of the picture.

01:09:55.720 You know, because that's when they started having their rumblings about the money and killing everybody.

01:10:00.920 Who knows?

01:10:01.840 But you don't do that.

01:10:02.780 That's, that's, you know, and he agreed with me.

01:10:04.580 You know, we had that discussion.

01:10:05.740 He says, you never know.

01:10:07.340 You never thought about that.

01:10:08.220 And how did you guys view Sammy at the time?

01:10:12.740 Sammy is.

01:10:13.780 Well, Sammy was always, me growing up as a kid, I knew he was a powerhouse.

01:10:19.140 Big guy.

01:10:20.160 And it happened fast.

01:10:21.380 It happened fast.

01:10:22.480 You know, he was part of the Colombo family.

01:10:24.740 I got to say that.

01:10:25.580 And the story I got was he was, in a nice way, asked to leave.

01:10:30.300 Okay.

01:10:30.700 It's not like he wanted to go somewhere else.

01:10:33.460 There was some kind of thing.

01:10:34.960 And the actual word I heard from Greg was he was chased.

01:10:38.140 He was told leave.

01:10:39.820 Okay.

01:10:40.360 Somehow or another, he latched on.

01:10:41.800 And I'm sure he has his version.

01:10:43.060 Whatever it is, you know, maybe he knows more.

01:10:45.720 I don't know.

01:10:46.340 But that's what I know.

01:10:47.060 So he goes and latches on with the Gambinos. 1.00

01:10:50.720 Eventually gets straightened out.

01:10:52.000 Before you know it, he's a captain.

01:10:53.020 And then all the stuff happened with Castellano, and he moved up, and he took the world over.

01:10:59.080 You know.

01:10:59.980 But listen, back then, I liked him.

01:11:01.660 I mean, it's not that I dislike him now, but, you know, we're going in different directions.

01:11:05.340 Did you have run-ins with him or no?

01:11:07.040 Back then?

01:11:07.560 Back then.

01:11:07.960 No.

01:11:08.400 Okay.

01:11:08.800 No, not really.

01:11:09.640 Neither would Michael either because it was...

01:11:11.240 No, Michael I never even met.

01:11:12.540 I met his father once.

01:11:13.960 On one of the small stretches, he was out.

01:11:15.860 He came to say hello to Greg, or maybe he was even on 11th day.

01:11:18.860 What happened with Greg?

01:11:20.480 The eight story.

01:11:21.220 I mean, if you don't mind sharing that, the story of what happened there.

01:11:24.140 Well, Greg used to take Anacons. 0.98

01:11:28.020 Three every night when we were finished at the club.

01:11:30.800 He would go in his pocket, take three Anacons like that. 1.00

01:11:32.840 He wouldn't even drink milk, anything with them.

01:11:35.100 Just take them like that. 0.75

01:11:36.520 He did this every day for years and years and years.

01:11:38.840 And I used to ask him why.

01:11:39.540 I said, you got a headache?

01:11:40.380 He says, no, but I don't want to get one.

01:11:41.560 And I'm going to have a few drinks tonight.

01:11:43.740 So anyway, ultimately that, after many, many years of this, it caused ulcers.

01:11:51.800 I couldn't think of a word.

01:11:52.380 Ulcers in his stomach.

01:11:54.340 And one day they start bleeding.

01:11:56.280 And he's bleeding badly through the behind and stuff.

01:11:59.620 They bring him to the hospital.

01:12:00.580 And he's losing so much blood that they called, they needed to give him a transfusion.

01:12:07.200 Or blood, just a, is that what it's called?

01:12:10.200 A transfusion?

01:12:10.860 Okay.

01:12:12.100 So he tells them that he doesn't want the hospital's blood because of the AIDS.

01:12:18.040 It was starting to become a problem.

01:12:20.360 This is what year?

01:12:21.260 86.

01:12:22.260 Prime time.

01:12:23.100 Prime time.

01:12:23.500 So he demands that one of his own men.

01:12:27.260 So we all come in, 30 of us men, women, one match.

01:12:31.000 And it's Paulie Mellie.

01:12:33.380 Big weightlifter.

01:12:34.780 Okay.

01:12:35.140 And this was known as a gay thing back then.

01:12:37.500 And I know you got to be careful of the things you say today.

01:12:40.060 But back then, that's what it was known as.

01:12:42.020 Okay.

01:12:42.960 And Paulie was not.

01:12:44.540 Paulie had more girls.

01:12:45.580 And I mean, he was a man's man.

01:12:47.580 But he was a weightlifter.

01:12:49.880 And they shared needles.

01:12:50.840 And that's how he got it and died later on.

01:12:55.020 Okay.

01:12:55.460 But that was the one match.

01:12:56.980 So he got Paulie's blood.

01:13:00.280 Wow.

01:13:00.900 Now, when I say that, I got to say this. 0.97

01:13:03.300 I don't know if it was divine intervention, time to pay the piper, or just dumb luck. 0.86

01:13:10.020 I mean, you know.

01:13:10.960 But the one person out of 30 that matched had the virus.

01:13:15.960 And he wound up getting that.

01:13:17.020 Now, because of all the money he had, much like Magic Johnson, he was able to take all

01:13:22.500 the drugs that they had, all the, you know, some of the drugs weren't even proven yet.

01:13:28.920 But he said, I'll take them.

01:13:29.900 Let me try.

01:13:30.820 All doctors all over Manhattan, I'd be taking them.

01:13:32.920 He'd be getting white blood cells put in.

01:13:35.240 And this went on for years and years and years, even through the war, you know.

01:13:39.400 So, but, you know, it was, like I said, I was sad when I heard it.

01:13:44.120 But then we lived with it, you know, for, geez, probably four years and then a couple

01:13:50.480 of years in the can or whatever around then.

01:13:52.820 And then while I was gone and doing my time, I heard he passed.

01:13:56.960 Yeah.

01:13:57.200 And what was the story that we're saying that he used AIDS as an alibi that, hey, you

01:14:01.480 know, it's because of AIDS?

01:14:03.660 Well, he could have.

01:14:04.580 He could have.

01:14:05.000 You know, I didn't hear that, believe it or not.

01:14:06.740 I don't remember hearing that he used that as an excuse.

01:14:10.160 But, you know, going back to how he sold us out, because at the end, he took a deathbed

01:14:15.380 confession, okay, and he exonerated Alley Boy.

01:14:19.480 And Alley Boy walked out a free man, but then got in trouble again for killing Wild Bill

01:14:23.120 and back doing life again.

01:14:26.520 But he could have very easily added Jimmy, myself, and his son, because that's how he

01:14:32.280 started with this, that Greg Jr. should have never been the head of that last indictment.

01:14:35.700 Greg Sr. should have.

01:14:36.520 How did he not, was enlisted as the boss?

01:14:39.340 So Greg got the kingpin, which instead of getting seven or eight years with drugs at the

01:14:43.260 time, he got 20 plus and then got hit with more charges later on.

01:14:49.240 But he was not, never on, he should have been the head of that indictment.

01:14:53.120 You know, so anyway, why not say that?

01:14:56.700 Why not say Larry and Jimmy weren't on these hits?

01:15:00.120 Nobody knew.

01:15:00.880 Nobody was there with us.

01:15:02.340 And say that they dropped me off sometimes, places.

01:15:05.640 I couldn't tell them where I was going because I was involved in this war.

01:15:08.860 And I went, I killed some guys, and then they picked me up later.

01:15:11.280 You know, he could have said something to, and obviously deathbed confessions, which I

01:15:16.000 didn't know, carry a lot of weight.

01:15:18.760 Because Alley Boy beat his case based on that.

01:15:21.400 And some of his family members, again, tried to tell me later on, not Greg Jr., because

01:15:26.140 he's pretty much on my wavelength.

01:15:29.420 You know, very hard to forgive and forget.

01:15:32.800 You want to, but you can't.

01:15:34.340 So we talk about the good times, but we say, yeah, but he had us all fooled.

01:15:37.760 Look what he did to all of us, you know.

01:15:39.380 But one of the, one of his daughters told me that he was so drugged up at the end that

01:15:45.840 he didn't even, he just signed whatever they asked him to sign.

01:15:50.860 But also now on the other side of that, I saw paperwork.

01:15:54.500 I saw paperwork that during the war, when he got caught with Jimmy throwing a gun out

01:16:01.600 the car door, it came back to the local police.

01:16:05.120 That was the feds.

01:16:06.480 It came back to the local police that it was Larry and Jimmy in the car.

01:16:11.700 So he was selling me out right there.

01:16:13.660 Not gun charge.

01:16:14.480 I would have took it from him in a heartbeat, you know.

01:16:16.680 But you do that, just be, you know, that's, you know, I don't know if I could do that to

01:16:21.220 somebody.

01:16:22.280 Now, later on, I see a forensic, an FBI forensic person show me paperwork that the FBI themselves

01:16:31.660 were told that me and Jimmy, they knew there was an informant now.

01:16:36.220 They knew there was an informant.

01:16:37.860 Now, the head guy knew, obviously, who was handling him.

01:16:41.520 None of the underling guys knew who it was.

01:16:44.480 They were told, it's Larry and Jimmy.

01:16:47.120 Now, imagine somebody else in the family has a connection to the feds.

01:16:50.260 They'd kill us. 0.68

01:16:51.300 That's what I'm saying.

01:16:52.220 So even though he might have been, whatever, there was a lot of things he did that, I mean,

01:16:58.300 you know, I can't even understand why.

01:17:00.840 I don't understand it, you know. 0.97

01:17:02.160 Just keep your mouth shut.

01:17:04.080 So that's why, you know, at the end of the day, where I am now, I got no problem looking

01:17:09.300 in the mirror.

01:17:10.120 I got, you know, I was dealt the hand and I played it, you know.

01:17:13.740 Larry, when you got out, what was it when you were done with your time, when you did

01:17:17.500 your time?

01:17:17.840 Oh, 2002, right?

01:17:19.440 Yeah.

01:17:19.760 2002.

01:17:20.400 What made you not get back?

01:17:22.720 Well, a combination of things.

01:17:25.020 Even though I don't consider myself an exposure of things.

01:17:28.460 I didn't like point fingers and this guy did this, this guy did that.

01:17:32.080 But I broke a rule.

01:17:35.080 I dealt with the government.

01:17:36.180 I sat there.

01:17:36.720 I came clean.

01:17:37.740 I told him what I knew about the corruption, about the hits I did, you know.

01:17:41.200 So they're not, you know, I can't go back for that reason, number one.

01:17:45.020 Okay.

01:17:45.380 Number two, there's, I see the light.

01:17:49.100 There's no life there anymore.

01:17:50.920 And I try to get messages to some younger guys that were under us that are still there.

01:17:56.520 I say things.

01:17:57.480 I'm on YouTube a lot and stuff.

01:17:58.820 Today.

01:17:58.980 Today.

01:17:59.480 I put things out there.

01:18:00.640 I says, when are you going to see the light?

01:18:02.580 What are you, you're going to, you did eight years.

01:18:04.060 Now you got 10.

01:18:04.800 Then you get out.

01:18:05.260 Why is it hard to leave it?

01:18:06.520 What, what is, because the amount of people I've interviewed and I asked about the glamour

01:18:11.240 of like, I asked Leonetti, he says, dude, we didn't have as good of a time as you

01:18:14.060 think we did.

01:18:14.600 Right.

01:18:14.860 Then I asked, Michael says, no, we did have parties.

01:18:17.480 When I asked Sammy, not really, Sammy was more the worker when I asked Kalata, you

01:18:21.260 know, we were, we were all about the business.

01:18:23.980 We were all about making money.

01:18:24.920 Did you have fun?

01:18:25.420 Would you, were you having the cars, the girls, the party and all that?

01:18:28.100 Yes, I did.

01:18:28.680 Cause I was making an awful lot of money for 18, 19, 20, 21, 22.

01:18:33.180 You know, that's still young, you know, right through up until I got picked.

01:18:36.000 So while you're with Linda, you're still, you're still having a blast with, uh, you are

01:18:39.460 living the big life going to the clubs.

01:18:41.120 Oh yeah.

01:18:41.300 So I was, I had the caddies going to nightclubs, being treated like a mini boss.

01:18:45.620 What's the most money you made during that time from 78 to 86?

01:18:48.940 Well, I'll tell you this.

01:18:50.240 When I, I left 700,000 when I went to prison, that's what I lost to them.

01:18:56.840 700,000.

01:18:57.980 In 86?

01:18:59.160 Uh, no, no.

01:18:59.760 I went away in 92.

01:19:01.880 So, but yeah, but up until about 89, 90.

01:19:04.120 And that's, uh, between Sherlock money, uh,

01:19:07.420 700,000 is not what you're making, what you had in cash that you left is what you're saying.

01:19:12.000 Yeah.

01:19:12.420 Okay.

01:19:12.660 Yeah.

01:19:12.900 Yeah.

01:19:13.220 No.

01:19:13.460 So we were making, but you know, I also overspent, not overspent, but like you make a week.

01:19:19.760 We made, you know, let's say the business, the sports business made 60,000.

01:19:23.000 You know, I would always throw Greg something and Greg jr.

01:19:25.260 Okay.

01:19:25.520 At the beginning I used to give him a cut, but then I saw when we lost, I didn't get any help.

01:19:29.200 So I said, okay, they get less, you know, cause it was mine now, you know?

01:19:32.740 So let's say I gave them 10, there's 50, you know, Jimmy got it a good, more and more as

01:19:37.540 years went on, he became a partner, uh, but I had other people that worked with me and

01:19:41.200 I never treated them like workers.

01:19:42.860 I treated them like partners, partners.

01:19:44.820 Yeah.

01:19:45.000 So they might not get an equal, but you know, so at the end of the day, if I had 15 or 20

01:19:49.400 for myself, I'd go spend five, six, 7,000 on a weekend.

01:19:52.820 Like it was nothing, you know?

01:19:54.300 Yeah.

01:19:54.840 Uh, why, why, why is it hard to leave?

01:19:57.860 I'll tell you why it's hard.

01:19:58.800 And this may not be nice to some people, some of them can't survive or find another

01:20:07.660 way to earn a living.

01:20:09.660 Okay.

01:20:09.980 And a lot of times on these different things I do, I'll, I'll, I'll sum it up like this.

01:20:15.240 If you know, I get a, like Michael, I know he's, I believe he's truly religious now and

01:20:20.960 wants to leave a better legacy behind and all some other guys like that too.

01:20:25.020 So I don't feel comfortable doing that, but I'll say this, you don't need that life to

01:20:33.140 earn a good living or to get respect.

01:20:35.980 And a lot of these guys in it, that's the only way they're going to get respect.

01:20:39.980 And it's the only way they can earn a living. 1.00

01:20:41.460 That's why they're still selling drugs and doing these stupid street things. 1.00

01:20:44.880 Okay. 1.00

01:20:45.280 I moved on.

01:20:46.560 I, when I came home, I started working in a gym.

01:20:50.280 Then I had worked in three gyms.

01:20:52.960 I started developing clients.

01:20:55.020 But I already had the thing in my head, you know, once my three years is up, okay, I'm

01:21:00.800 going to find a place of my own, which I did.

01:21:03.740 And it kept growing and growing and growing.

01:21:06.000 I have a successful gym.

01:21:07.660 Met my wife, Kelly.

01:21:09.360 We started, well, she started when she retired.

01:21:11.860 She was a vice president with a very big government contracting company.

01:21:15.520 When she retired, she wanted to do something that more, less stressful, something fun.

01:21:23.980 So she liked promoting weddings.

01:21:26.180 She got into that, opened the florist as the base.

01:21:29.500 Before you know it, we added a wine bar to the florist.

01:21:32.300 Think about the atmosphere.

01:21:33.540 Flowers all around.

01:21:34.440 Couples, ladies would come in a lot. 1.00

01:21:37.340 We brought in a little bit of music.

01:21:39.380 We were mobbed.

01:21:40.920 We had to get a bigger place.

01:21:42.660 It turned out to be a supper club.

01:21:45.100 Now, it got so busy every night that we were getting home three in the morning.

01:21:50.180 I couldn't go to the gym anymore.

01:21:51.420 I still haven't lost all the weight back.

01:21:53.560 I'm supposed to be a middleweight, about 180.

01:21:55.500 I'm still up near 190, which I hate.

01:21:57.800 But, you know, I did put on a little muscle, so that's not too bad.

01:22:00.820 But we sold that, you know.

01:22:03.700 And now I'm back at the gym full time.

01:22:07.800 You know, my son's coming in as a trainer.

01:22:09.600 I got five or six other trainers there.

01:22:11.560 And I'm very good to the trainers, you know.

01:22:13.780 So they don't go anywhere, and they promote me to other trainers.

01:22:18.460 You know, I had three kickboxing classes.

01:22:20.800 I had, you know, a young kid, intermediate, and adults.

01:22:26.560 And I was full.

01:22:27.580 Sometimes they were standing room only, you know.

01:22:30.380 Some cardio classes.

01:22:31.860 And I just worked and worked and worked.

01:22:34.040 And, you know, through the whole time, I had the book.

01:22:36.860 So I promoted the book.

01:22:37.940 I never got a publisher to do it.

01:22:39.560 And I did the math myself.

01:22:40.820 I said, they're going to give me $30,000 or something, okay.

01:22:43.460 And I'm going to be begging them for more for the next 10 years

01:22:46.000 until they finish fudging their numbers.

01:22:47.400 You would.

01:22:47.960 Of course, of course.

01:22:49.640 I didn't even need a writer to do it, you know,

01:22:51.880 because I got an A in writing in college.

01:22:53.440 I wrote that whole book myself.

01:22:54.520 Get out of here.

01:22:54.940 Every bit of it is my own.

01:22:56.020 That's impressive.

01:22:56.660 The only part I didn't write was the opening prologue

01:22:59.940 where I wanted somebody that knows me, and it's an ex-cop.

01:23:03.340 Cassante?

01:23:03.860 No, no, no.

01:23:04.380 No, no.

01:23:05.100 Armand is a hell of a guy.

01:23:06.140 He wrote a thing on the back.

01:23:07.480 No, this was an ex-cop that was on my case.

01:23:11.040 So he wrote, described me what he thought of me

01:23:13.220 and, you know, about how I came back and whatever.

01:23:16.340 It was very nice.

01:23:17.040 But the rest is mine.

01:23:18.520 And so I didn't have a writer.

01:23:21.040 I don't have an agent.

01:23:22.800 Now I do.

01:23:23.800 I don't have a publisher.

01:23:27.880 So I don't have to sell as many, but I'm selling a nice amount, thank God.

01:23:32.800 And after the show, I'm sure I'm going to sell some more

01:23:34.540 because I'm going to tell them my website if it's okay.

01:23:36.440 No, no, we're going to put the link below.

01:23:37.580 We're going to put the link below to the website of the book.

01:23:39.380 No question about it.

01:23:40.200 I appreciate that.

01:23:40.620 I appreciate that.

01:23:40.660 But so, and when I got to fast forward, it's a perfect segue into De Niro.

01:23:45.780 Well, he read the book because the same cop is now one of his security guards.

01:23:51.280 And he said the book was terrific.

01:23:52.780 He asked the guys if they knew anybody that would come and help them

01:23:57.260 while they're doing the Irishman, where he's got a lot of questions.

01:24:00.440 They said me, which is a double-edged sword.

01:24:03.960 It's a compliment.

01:24:04.600 But then again, the things I got to talk to him about aren't, you know,

01:24:07.680 that's, you know, stuff that I'm not proud of.

01:24:10.500 So anyway, I'm his consultant.

01:24:12.200 I get a little part playing the hitman in the movie.

01:24:15.120 I wound up playing another part, Joey Glasgow, or Blasco.

01:24:21.100 Blasco, right?

01:24:21.660 Joe Blasco, who was a corrupt ex-cop working for Joe Pesci's character in Casino,

01:24:29.680 okay, out in Vegas.

01:24:31.320 And he was a suspect in a murder.

01:24:34.840 That was a good little part I had.

01:24:37.000 And coming up...

01:24:39.020 You were in Casino?

01:24:40.060 No, not Casino.

01:24:40.960 But the story of...

01:24:42.060 It was a TV show called The Perfect Murder.

01:24:43.780 I got you.

01:24:44.440 And I played the corrupt cop that they made you think he killed him.

01:24:48.920 And at the end of the day, nobody still knows who killed him.

01:24:52.040 Who?

01:24:52.600 Pesci in Casino.

01:24:53.760 So I had Oscar Goodman on before, who was from Casino.

01:24:57.660 Pesci was playing who?

01:24:59.920 Tony Spallatra.

01:25:00.640 Spallatra.

01:25:01.380 And Colada was the hitman on The Vice that he did what he did with him.

01:25:06.940 Yeah, that's right.

01:25:07.380 So all of this has led me now to being...

01:25:11.940 There's a new network coming out, okay?

01:25:14.920 There's a soft opening coming next in October.

01:25:17.980 The grand opening will be Al Capone's birthday, early January.

01:25:21.660 I will be hosting a TV talk show, and it's called Mob TV, is the name of the network.

01:25:29.600 It's on the infamous TV, and then Mob TV 24-7.

01:25:33.400 And we may name it The Life.

01:25:35.580 And I'll have people on, much like we're doing today.

01:25:37.780 Hopefully I'm as good as you as a, you know, on the other side of the table.

01:25:41.280 And we also have other projects in development, like Mobsters vs. Monsters, for ex-mob guys that truly believe and go looking for the paranormal, like Bigfoot and things like that.

01:25:56.860 But it's serious, and it's funny.

01:25:58.940 It's a good little mix.

01:26:00.320 It's sort of reality.

01:26:01.560 It's hilarious.

01:26:02.120 Yeah, so there's that.

01:26:03.340 We have a couple of other people that are going to come on the show when I do it that have, you know, some podcasts in the works and different things like that.

01:26:11.540 So I'm in a whole different direction now.

01:26:13.440 I'm part-time at my gym, and I'm doing this stuff more.

01:26:16.540 I've got to do a reading this week sometime for the...

01:26:21.080 There's a word he used, but I guess certain marketing things, commercials and stuff for Mob TV, they want me to do the talking as the actor party.

01:26:30.120 So what are we going to go pay, Michael Madsen or Armando Sante?

01:26:32.580 You can do it.

01:26:33.940 So anyway, so there's so much happening that, you know, I'm so...

01:26:37.880 I've got a question for you, Larry.

01:26:38.880 So please, why are so many mobsters great storytellers?

01:26:44.200 What is that all about?

01:26:45.600 Like, do you guys go to, before you become made, they send you to this low-key, you know, CIA, FBI, 17 keys to being a great storyteller?

01:26:55.860 Like, there's such a unique ability to tell stories.

01:26:58.920 You know what I think it is?

01:26:59.860 Maybe that's the little DNA thing that brings us all together at some point where, you know, everybody thinks it's this, we're vicious killers, or we're this, they're all the same.

01:27:12.700 Maybe it's that we have this sort of side to us, where we're not, we're a little wiser than people think.

01:27:18.540 Well, it's not maybe.

01:27:20.420 There's not a maybe to it.

01:27:21.880 You know, people think, like, I guess you said, somebody said, it's not that glamorous.

01:27:28.720 It's not all easy.

01:27:29.560 It's not.

01:27:30.100 It's a lot of hard work.

01:27:30.980 All those rackets took a lot of work, a lot of dedication.

01:27:34.600 You had to, you know, be forceful sometimes.

01:27:37.580 But that's a great question because there are a bunch of us out there now, isn't there?

01:27:42.380 Yeah, I wonder, what is this?

01:27:44.800 Like, you guys could do a clinic, a master class on storytelling, and they just, everybody.

01:27:49.380 Do you have an answer to that?

01:27:50.120 Yeah.

01:27:50.840 Is it our character?

01:27:51.240 Have you noticed this?

01:27:52.280 Like, you know, I've been there, like, you sit there, you tell the stories, you know, one time I'm at P.F. Chang's in Santa Monica.

01:27:57.160 Bad analogy, but I'm just giving it to you, and you'll see where this goes.

01:28:00.560 And I used to go to the same P.F. Chang's, and I would always sit all the way to the right at Santa Monica,

01:28:05.440 and I would go right after I went to the stairs in Santa Monica.

01:28:08.980 I would go to Matador Beach, and I'd come here.

01:28:10.560 I'd have my seven Arnold Palmers.

01:28:12.160 I would read my book and do my plan for the week and go back home.

01:28:15.020 This was routine every Sunday, right?

01:28:17.100 One day, my bartender, the waiter, he's reading a book.

01:28:21.040 I said, what book are you reading?

01:28:22.120 He says, well, I'm really trying to get better with women. 0.89

01:28:25.340 I'm really struggling with that.

01:28:26.580 I said, okay, great.

01:28:27.600 I mean, what book are you reading? 0.52

01:28:28.520 He says, The Wisdom of a Prostitute. 0.99

01:28:31.180 What?

01:28:31.880 He's reading this book.

01:28:34.200 I'm like, what a title of a book. 0.97

01:28:36.440 What's the wisdom of a prostitute? 1.00

01:28:37.980 He says, well, this prostitute is telling the story of her experience with 2,000 men, 0.56

01:28:43.720 and she's saying the weakness, the insecurities of all these men,

01:28:46.820 and I have so many insecurities as a man,

01:28:49.480 and so she's sharing with me that 90% of men have similar insecurities,

01:28:54.180 and it's making me get this confidence, right? 0.89

01:28:56.340 So I said, what better person to learn about men's insecurities than a prostitute, 0.97

01:29:01.220 because she's been with, you know, she has that wisdom. 0.59

01:29:04.120 I mean, it is a wise woman.

01:29:06.680 That's not psych 101.

01:29:08.100 No, no, no.

01:29:08.920 That's like psych later on.

01:29:10.440 At first, when he tells me this story, I'm like, you know, that's a pretty strange thing to be reading yourself, right?

01:29:16.080 But the way he's explaining the story, I said, okay, maybe this makes sense, okay?

01:29:20.240 But, you know, maybe the reason why you guys are so good at telling stories is because how many times do you have to go to a sit-down

01:29:28.320 where, you know, you have to measure the words you use and be, you have to be careful with the words.

01:29:34.980 So you get your, it's almost like every one of the mobsters pacing on how you speak is the same speed.

01:29:40.420 You guys are not fast talkers.

01:29:42.400 It's really, you know, ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba, and it's just like musical the way you go with the pacing.

01:29:48.140 You know what else I think it is now that you said that, and I mean this, there are a lot of unique stories.

01:29:54.980 Everybody has a little play, a little spin on their story, okay?

01:29:59.340 And they start telling it so much, it becomes second nature, you know?

01:30:04.140 What I like about us today, and we didn't go totally chronological.

01:30:08.720 I didn't start, I was a kid, which I did, but then we sort of bounced, and I like that better.

01:30:12.700 I think it leads, that's why when you do watch the Mom Museum show, I started it where I am now and went back, you know?

01:30:20.600 Because if I say it over and over, and then, and then, God forbid, I say there were five of us there,

01:30:26.180 somebody will call me up and say, oh, they got a podcast, you said four.

01:30:29.340 You know, you're like under a microscope, you know?

01:30:31.820 Oh, there's no, again, it's technical.

01:30:33.760 And then you find haters, you find haters out there.

01:30:36.500 I mean, I'm so lucky, I got so few, some of them unfortunately are all friends,

01:30:41.280 that you don't understand, you can't understand it.

01:30:44.040 Is it envy because I'm moving on, or I don't even know.

01:30:48.040 These friends are still in the life, or they haven't left the life?

01:30:49.940 No, the ones that are still in the life love me.

01:30:51.940 Got it.

01:30:52.200 I talked to a bunch of them, and they love me.

01:30:55.480 I was away with the boss of one of the families at the tail end of my sentence,

01:31:00.580 and hated anybody talking negatively about me, stood behind me 100%, complained,

01:31:07.060 wanted to kick the dirt and spit on the ground when Greg's name came up.

01:31:10.520 He said he ruined so many good men, you know.

01:31:12.560 But no, it's guys that are now out of the life, and they're lost.

01:31:18.060 They don't know what to do with themselves.

01:31:19.720 So they got to, you know, have something bad to say.

01:31:22.340 But I have one old friend that wasn't even in the life, he was impersonating me on TikTok

01:31:27.440 to try to pick up girls.

01:31:30.620 This is true.

01:31:31.680 And you know how I found out?

01:31:32.740 One of the girls called me and told me his number. 0.72

01:31:35.760 We reached him.

01:31:36.960 And he just broke down on the phone crying.

01:31:39.100 I didn't know what I was doing. 0.98

01:31:40.520 I mean, just ridiculous.

01:31:41.640 Why did it work, though? 0.96

01:31:42.640 That's the question.

01:31:43.380 I don't think so.

01:31:44.040 If it's effective.

01:31:44.500 I don't think so, because my cousin, Albie's son, called this kid up.

01:31:50.460 And I'm not, you know, to be mean, he's very overweight now.

01:31:55.980 He's losing all his hair.

01:31:57.420 And he's a little younger than me.

01:31:59.080 And my cousin said, what were you thinking?

01:32:02.020 He says, okay, so say you pull it off.

01:32:04.600 They see a picture.

01:32:05.480 He's putting pictures of me out.

01:32:06.640 This is me.

01:32:07.200 This is me.

01:32:07.940 He says, when they're expecting Larry to get out of the car and you pull up, how are you going to explain that?

01:32:14.620 He says, I don't know.

01:32:15.460 I'm just losing my mind.

01:32:16.880 I mean, it was just hysterical.

01:32:17.980 I'm not even mad at the guy anymore.

01:32:19.380 I mean, at first I was, I say, but, you know.

01:32:22.920 Well, you look Hollywood, man.

01:32:23.960 You look like you belong in Hollywood.

01:32:25.820 You got that look.

01:32:26.580 Thank you so much.

01:32:27.440 Thank you.

01:32:27.900 And it's been very interesting learning about your story.

01:32:32.060 I accidentally got into interviewing folks from your life.

01:32:35.720 And from the first one after Michael, it's just been, you know, one after another.

01:32:40.100 And I know your story, it was popping up all over the place.

01:32:43.000 The last year, year and a half, I kept saying Larry Mazza, Larry Mazza.

01:32:45.580 It is.

01:32:45.960 Like I said, it's unique.

01:32:47.020 It's true.

01:32:48.000 I mean, every bit of it is true.

01:32:49.620 I always say this, there could be things that other people live with me that remember differently.

01:32:56.060 Like even Jimmy, I told you.

01:32:57.340 Like I said it was the next day.

01:32:59.560 Oh, wait, he didn't get hit until the third.

01:33:01.360 You said it was the second.

01:33:02.240 You know, that's going to happen.

01:33:03.680 You know, I've said, well, don't you remember?

01:33:05.580 And I use Jimmy a lot because I'll say, didn't we go to this meeting and there's like 15 of us there?

01:33:10.180 He says, 15? 0.96

01:33:11.320 The whole freaking family was there. 0.98

01:33:12.900 It was like 50 guys. 0.96

01:33:14.220 And maybe we're thinking of two different meetings, you know.

01:33:16.300 But we had 120 meetings during the war, maybe more, for a day, for six months, everywhere we had to go.

01:33:22.600 Traveled all over.

01:33:23.380 It was a nightmare.

01:33:24.620 That war was a nightmare.

01:33:25.880 It was almost a relief.

01:33:26.980 Did you do anything with the Philadelphia guys or no?

01:33:29.320 No.

01:33:29.980 No, I met a few while I was away.

01:33:32.240 But not really.

01:33:34.260 My thing was basically Brooklyn, Manhattan, New York.

01:33:37.520 Yeah, yeah, so.

01:33:39.480 Well, we're going to put the link to the book below.

01:33:42.020 Life, a Brooklyn boy is seducing to the dark world of mafia.

01:33:46.840 Larry Mazza, appreciate you for coming out.

01:33:48.780 Thank you so much.

01:33:49.340 I really enjoyed talking to you.

01:33:50.180 I'll come back for part two if you want.

01:33:51.900 Yeah, once you do the other stuff.

01:33:53.760 I look forward to that.

01:33:54.320 Oh, yeah, that's a good idea.

01:33:55.100 Yeah, it's happening soon.

01:33:56.500 So, thank you again.

01:33:57.740 Anytime.

01:33:58.200 Thank you.

01:33:58.700 Appreciate it.

01:33:59.580 What a great storyteller, right, Larry Mazza?

01:34:01.480 Anyways, if you enjoyed this interview, we did a podcast as well with Michael Francis

01:34:06.300 and Sammy DeVogravano on a different channel.

01:34:08.760 If you've never seen that, probably one of the best conversations we ever had.

01:34:12.200 Click here for Sammy.

01:34:13.400 Click here for Michael.

01:34:14.420 If you enjoyed the interview, give it a thumbs up and subscribe to the channel.

01:34:17.140 Take care, everybody.

01:34:17.760 Bye-bye.

Valuetainment - October 13, 2021

Former Mafia Hitman Opens Up About Dark Side of Greg Scarpa & His 20 Hits

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