Valuetainment - How North Korea Captured US Journalist & Kept Her For 140 Days

00:00:00.160 So we were walking the frozen river and there was no sign of a border whatsoever. No wire bars,

00:00:06.880 no sign. One of our producers shouted, soldiers. There were two small soldiers with rifles chasing

00:00:13.840 us really fast. And then I was filming as I was running. We were all captured. You shoot, don't

00:00:19.680 chew my head. I want to survive. What is the state of your mind? Are you in shock? I cannot believe we

00:00:24.640 got ourselves in a situation like this. What are you thinking in that moment when you're with Laura?

00:00:28.560 Laura told me, Hyuna, we are the enemies. We were so frightened, but we're so calm as well at the

00:00:35.440 same time. How did you guys get rid of the footage and the notes that you had? We ate the papers. The

00:00:40.560 papers you ate it. Wow. They were trying to get all the information, including the sources that we met.

00:00:46.080 Was there any torture? Was there any psychological torture? Was there fear tactics? What did you

00:00:51.200 experience during those 140 days? A day felt like a 10 year. Did your opinion about North Korea change?

00:00:57.520 Meaning did it get worse or did it get better or just different? It was hard to separate the people 1.00

00:01:02.480 of North Korea with government. You know, you're a prisoner in North Korea for 140 days,

00:01:07.360 but there are people living in that whole country. I feel very lucky.

00:01:12.640 So my guest today is Yuna Lee, who is a best way to describe her as a documentary journalist that

00:01:23.360 many years ago, more like 11 years ago, she decided to go to do a documentary with her friend,

00:01:28.400 her partner in China and North Korea. And suddenly they were arrested and they were in prison for 140

00:01:35.760 days. I'll let her tell you the whole story. It got to the point where President Clinton and President

00:01:40.240 Obama had to get involved to help them bring him back to the States, a very touching story.

00:01:44.720 And this was inspired after having a conversation with Yonomi Park. Many of you wanted to know more

00:01:50.640 about different point of views of North Korea and South Korea. So we decided to reach out to

00:01:55.040 Yuna Lee and she was kind enough to say yes. So Yuna Lee, thank you so much for being a guest on

00:01:58.720 Valuetainment. Thanks for having me.

00:02:00.880 So I know it's been a minute since this event, you know, St. Patrick's Day, March,

00:02:06.560 I want to say 17th of 2009, when you're out there trying to shoot this documentary with your partner,

00:02:12.800 I believe Laura is her name. And many times when you go through these types of experiences,

00:02:19.040 most people don't want to revisit it and keep telling a story on over and over and over again.

00:02:22.960 But, uh, you know, sometimes, uh, uh, the man upstairs or whatever you believe in tends to

00:02:29.280 use us in many different ways to either inspire, educate, or encourage others in their own ways.

00:02:36.080 And, uh, he, you know, and, and this has been you that's been chosen to have this story.

00:02:41.120 So I appreciate your agreeing to share this story, but for some of the viewers that don't know the full

00:02:44.880 story of what happened there, can you go back and kind of tell us a little bit what was the purpose

00:02:50.880 of the documentary and why did you guys choose to go to North Korea and China to shoot this and how

00:02:56.080 did this whole thing happen? Um, so before we, you know, we, I take you, you guys to the,

00:03:05.120 the fator day of March 17th. I want to, uh, share how I ended up working on that documentary about

00:03:12.240 human trafficking in China. So it was a 2005, I was working for current TV at the time,

00:03:19.040 and I got to know about documentary called Sorrow Train. It was about following, it was about

00:03:24.720 North Korean defectors, family, four adults, and young little, uh, toddler. And they were about to,

00:03:32.080 uh, enter the consulate, a consulate in China. So because they were told that if they crossed the

00:03:39.040 gate, they would be safe. And they made safely to China. And then they tried to cross the consulate

00:03:45.360 gate. And then they stopped by the Chinese soldiers. And there was a young girl who was

00:03:50.720 standing confused and then scared while watching her mom and grandma was wrestling with, uh, Chinese 0.98

00:03:56.800 soldiers. At the time I had, uh, I just had a baby and she was 10 months old. Whenever I came home,

00:04:04.160 uh, whenever I held my baby, it reminded me, it reminded me of that little toddler with pigtail.

00:04:11.280 Wow. And I told my husband, we better do something about these people. I heard about North Korean 1.00

00:04:16.720 defectors, uh, uh, dangerous journey, uh, to escape their country and, uh, their situation in North Korea.

00:04:24.720 Korea, but my life was busy as well. So I kind of, uh, moved on. And four years later, 2009, I had finally

00:04:34.240 had my own opportunity to tell their stories. And there were some reports about how numbers of North

00:04:41.760 Korean defectors growing still, and then their conditions, especially for female defectors,

00:04:47.600 are really gotten worse in China. And they were prey to the human trafficking. Like they were sold to,

00:04:56.320 uh, farmers, wives, you know, sex workers. And sometimes they were deceived when they cross and

00:05:02.400 they didn't, they don't even know what, uh, they are facing when they cross the border. Right. So my team

00:05:09.440 and I were, uh, we traveled to South Korea and China to shed light on their conditions. And it was a very

00:05:16.560 important story to us to tell the world because there are so many stories out there people don't

00:05:21.200 know about. We thought this is one of the stories that people need to pay attention to their condition,

00:05:26.480 human rights in China. So that was March 17 was our last day after it was filming in China. And next day,

00:05:36.240 it was a day that we were about to head to the U S. So in the morning, very early in the morning,

00:05:41.360 we wanted to have the last shooting, um, showing the border between China and North Korea. So we were at the

00:05:48.960 northeastern China where the Tumor river crossed between the countries. And that's, we're told that

00:05:55.280 that that's the route that a lot of North Koreans take to escape. And March 17 in that region is still

00:06:04.160 freezing and cold winter time. So river was still frozen. So we were walking the frozen river and

00:06:11.680 there was no sign of a border whatsoever. No wire bars or no sign. You didn't know that if it's the

00:06:18.080 border, if we did, we were not with the fixer. Our fixer was pretty, uh, connected with the area and

00:06:25.360 not aware of the situation. He worked for NHK, BBC on the same matter before us. So we completely trusted

00:06:34.080 him. And when we were on the frozen river, maybe few, about 30 minutes or so, um, filming the condition

00:06:44.640 that how freezing it was. And then where the, you know, this is a route that a lot of North Koreans 0.98

00:06:49.840 taking. And one of our producers shouted, soldiers. So I looked back and there were two small soldiers

00:07:00.080 with the uniform with rifles chasing us really fast. So we all ran towards Chinese soil as fast as we 0.99

00:07:08.960 could. One of our producers, male was an avid runner. So he disappeared fast. And, um, my fixer, our fixer

00:07:18.240 was running next to me. He was like, you know, are you filming this? And I thought this is crazy. But I

00:07:24.800 flipped my camera and put my underarms and then I was filming as I was running. Wow. So while you're

00:07:30.720 running, you're filming this entire event. We, you never know what kind of footage you're using. You

00:07:35.600 wanted to show the condition, right? This is the moment that this, uh, the fear that a lot of North

00:07:40.560 Koreans kind of face. And in my head, just don't, if you should, don't chew my head. I want to survive. 0.91

00:07:46.880 Right. And when I was almost close to Chinese soil, I saw Laura Ling, my colleague fell in front of me.

00:07:55.920 And I stopped and she said, I can, I can move my, I can feel my legs. And I, I didn't know what to

00:08:04.080 do, but I knew that I couldn't leave her there by herself. She doesn't speak the language. And then

00:08:09.680 we were a team and, um, our fixer was, and suddenly our fixer and me and Laura was surrounded by these

00:08:20.320 two soldiers. And we heard about this North Korean board, uh, border guards that how you can simply

00:08:28.800 bribe them, even defectors, they can pay them to cross the border. Or sometimes if you're a journalist,

00:08:36.560 you can give them some cigarettes to make a small talk. So our fixer was telling me that money,

00:08:42.560 money. So just give them bribe that money to escape that situation. So I pulled that over

00:08:47.440 whatever in my pocket and gave it to them and they did not want to take it. Wow. So I knew something

00:08:54.880 was going wrong. And when my fixer was not able to fix the situation, he ran as well. Maybe he wanted

00:09:03.120 to take one of soldiers, you know, to, to, from the situation. I don't know, but I wanted him to run

00:09:10.160 so that he can let someone, our situation. Sure. And now, you know, if you don't mind me asking,

00:09:16.720 how many total are you, even the producer, that's a very good runner. How many total people were you

00:09:21.920 yourself, Laura, the fixer, the producer, that's four. How many more were there?

00:09:27.200 That was it. Okay, got it. And he, I was wrestling with the one of soldiers grabbed Laura and the other 0.89

00:09:41.040 soldier grabbed me and I saw Laura was fainted. I didn't know that at the time she was hit. But she

00:09:48.560 was unconscious on the ice. And the other soldier was, because I was beckoning and I know I was trying

00:09:57.920 to yell and screaming to get help from Chinese soil, China, he raised this rifle to, to hit me,

00:10:05.200 the more taking the motion. And I looked at him. And he was a such a small, it was a small boy,

00:10:13.120 maybe 17 or so. And he was a hesitant to hit me at the time. So I told him, hey, let me walk with you.

00:10:22.160 So I got up. You're speaking in his language when you're saying this to him, you're speaking in

00:10:26.880 Korean. Yes, I spoke Korean to him. And we, I got up and I crossed the river with him. And

00:10:35.040 that's how we ended up being detained in North Korea. Now, if Laura couldn't walk, 0.99

00:10:41.440 did the other soldier carry her or how did Laura get there? So I screamed Laura's name so many times

00:10:48.960 and she finally, uh, woke up from conscious. So we walked to an army base. And, and did you later

00:10:56.880 on in life figure out why he didn't take the money from you? I mean, he didn't, he didn't try to take

00:11:01.840 advantage of you guys, the two, two, you know, being two women there, he didn't try, they didn't try to

00:11:05.840 do that. They didn't try to take money. Did they tell you why they didn't take money or you never found

00:11:10.320 that the answer to that question? We, we heard that the border security was very tightened at the

00:11:15.600 time, the, the conditions. And, um, honestly don't know why they didn't take money, but yeah.

00:11:23.680 Very interesting. So now you go there. So at this point, they don't seem like to you,

00:11:30.720 they don't seem like they're bad people. You see them as innocent,

00:11:33.680 young soldiers that are just trying to do their jobs.

00:11:37.040 These. Oh yeah. Yeah. They, these, uh, these were just the kids, uh, like about my high,

00:11:42.720 I'm only five, two, they were like my size and my highs. And then they were somehow they were nervous,

00:11:50.080 nervous as I, we were, I don't know why. And I had some like recorded tape in my, uh, back then we

00:11:58.160 used a tape, small tape. So tape in my pocket, I had a small flip on that, uh, used to contact people

00:12:05.520 in China in my pocket. So as they walked, uh, us to an army, the army base, uh, in my head, I have to

00:12:15.920 get rid of them. So I looked them and they, they were, I don't know, they were just nervous. They just

00:12:23.920 told us on top. So I dropped, uh, I was able to drop them one by one to get rid of them. So that's

00:12:30.560 how much they were nervous too. And when we arrived at the army base, it was, uh, it was like a movie

00:12:38.000 scene that I watched it from one of propaganda movie that I, when I grew up in South Korea, it was a yard.

00:12:46.800 They had a, a steady call that soldiers practice, uh, knife fighting and they had me stand there.

00:12:56.000 And Laura told me, you know, we're the enemies. And the, the flash of the image that, that I watched

00:13:06.480 from movie that, you know, the people are tight in the pole and then just being killed, just flash it.

00:13:13.040 But instead, uh, an officer tall guy walked out of a small building, um, office building, and he had a

00:13:23.120 coat in, uh, in his hand. He handed the coat to me. Uh, it's, I did not realize I wasn't wearing

00:13:30.240 coat at the time because I had some phone numbers in my coat pocket. So while I was wrestling with the

00:13:36.640 soldiers on the frozen river, I got out of the coat to leave that coat on the river. And

00:13:43.360 I, my teeth were channeling, but I was so nervous that I didn't even realize. And then he had

00:13:48.560 me in his coat. So I was like, to keep myself warm. So that's a nice gesture from him. That's

00:13:54.720 probably not expected to see something happen like that. Not at all, because yeah. At this point,

00:14:01.600 are you and Laura frightened? Are you, are you how, I mean, what is the state of your mind? Are you in shock?

00:14:08.480 Are you meaning we, I cannot believe we got ourselves in a situation like this. We're

00:14:13.200 about to go back to America. We got all the footage that we got. How do we find ourselves

00:14:17.200 in this situation? What are you thinking in that moment when you're with Laura?

00:14:21.200 We were so frightened, but we're so calm as well at the same time. And then, you know, I think I can't

00:14:28.400 speak for her, but I wanted to believe that there is a chance that we can go back. If we talk to them,

00:14:33.760 some, we can get out of this situation somehow. And we, we talked to each other like, let's read all

00:14:40.160 these slogans, what he says, and remember all these details. You know, you're still in the mode of

00:14:45.600 making documentaries so that we didn't know what was ahead of us, but we were just at the moment that

00:14:52.320 we're still going to finish these documentaries.

00:14:55.520 So, so while you're there, I'm trying to get, so is it just you and Laura and the two are not with

00:15:02.960 you? The fixer and the producers no longer with you?

00:15:05.440 At the time, I didn't know, but Laura had a lot of mic on her when she was captured. And then she

00:15:11.360 told our producers, keep running. So, so they were, don't, don't come back, keep running. And then our fixer

00:15:18.960 ran. And we both hoped that they would go somewhere to report our situation. Can you imagine, like,

00:15:26.160 if we were all captured, then no one would know where we would be.

00:15:31.280 So, so, so in a way, the other two not getting captured helped you get free eventually, because

00:15:37.040 of them being able to go away and tell them people that you guys were captured?

00:15:40.560 I believe so. I believe so. And we had to protect our sources as well, the people who we interviewed.

00:15:46.000 So for them to run would protect them as well in China, and also, you know, to help us situation.

00:15:55.920 Now, what did you do with the footage? Was the footage and the notes you took, was it with you?

00:16:00.400 How did you guys get rid of the footage and the notes that you had? Or was it with the producer

00:16:04.560 and the fixer? So some of the footage that we filmed in, in South Korea, I left with my family

00:16:11.200 before we came to China. And some of the footage that we filmed in China was, I heard that it's

00:16:20.800 confiscated by Chinese police. But luckily, when we met any defectors in China, we were very careful 0.76

00:16:30.000 filming there to, to hide their identity. So we did not film their faces.

00:16:35.200 I read somewhere where you guys, the way you got rid of some of your notes is you ate the paper. Did you

00:16:41.520 guys actually eat some of the notes? Or is that a pretty accurate statement I read?

00:16:46.480 Yeah, it is. It seems like a long ago, so faded image. But it was the first day that we were captured.

00:16:56.080 We were moved to another, from Army Base, we were moved to another place. We don't know where. And

00:17:03.840 they put us in a room. There was a short moment that we were just ourselves. So I, what I knew was,

00:17:14.240 I know that at some point, they're gonna find out what we did, but we need to have, keep it delayed as

00:17:20.080 long as we can. So we read the tapes that we had. We projected. Because these people took the camera

00:17:29.840 that we filmed on the eyes. They were figuring out what they were, how the camera works, and then,

00:17:37.520 you know, what they were in there. So we were with our projections in the room. So we read the tapes.

00:17:42.480 And then there were some memos that we read that, that can be, that has one of sources name.

00:17:50.880 So we ripped it. I gave a half to Laura and then half. We, I told Laura to eat it. And we ate.

00:17:57.760 You ate the tape. No, we ate the papers. The papers you ate it. Wow. Did they ever,

00:18:03.440 during that 140 days, find out that you were a documentary journalist or they never found out?

00:18:07.600 They, they did. They did not, uh, find it out for, uh, for a couple of days. We told them we were

00:18:16.480 a student, film student. And then we followed a professor to just film the border. We were

00:18:22.000 reporting about an economy situation at the border. And they didn't figure it out. They, they had a

00:18:28.160 very limited, uh, people who speak English, but they were able to figure things out. They, uh,

00:18:33.840 in that, uh, interrogated Laura and me separate. And then the sum of numbers did not match. And then

00:18:40.240 Laura and English, we were, um, they put us, uh, in cells next to each other. Laura was actually

00:18:47.840 asking, you know, should we tell them? And we, we, we just wait a little bit, wait a little bit. And

00:18:54.400 then until the moment that we had to tell them that we are from current TV.

00:18:58.480 The, the day, uh, uh, so, so while you're there, the 140 days, what, what, what experience did you

00:19:06.080 have? Was there any torture? Was there any psychological torture? Was there fear tactics?

00:19:10.960 What did you experience during those 140 days?

00:19:15.120 The, the one thing that really surprised me was these people, um, that I grew up in South Korea. So

00:19:22.320 North Korea was always enemy to us. Uh, we grew up with this, uh, very animated, uh, stories that how

00:19:28.880 North Korean soldiers are brutally killing people, innocent people during the court of during the

00:19:33.760 Korean war. And, um, hearing this story about young South Korean boy being brutally killed by North

00:19:41.040 Korean soldiers because he said he doesn't like communists. So they were very scary figure to me.

00:19:47.440 But whoever I met, not, not everybody was scary figure. They, some of them had very kind eyes.

00:19:56.080 And don't get me wrong. You know, when we were moved to the capital city, Pyongyang,

00:20:00.800 long interrogation, they had very skilled tactics to just break our, you know, psychologically break us

00:20:06.720 down. So it was a long psychological battle and then difficult time. But even during that time,

00:20:14.000 I would have to find some human kindness, humanity in those people.

00:20:20.000 What was it more, uh, uh, uh, because the way you describe it, it doesn't sound like it was that bad

00:20:26.480 of 140 days. It just sounds like you were in jail. So did you have terrible experiences or was it just

00:20:32.400 pleasant experiences you had there? Oh, it cannot be pleasant experience. That's, that's why I was asking

00:20:38.320 that because, you know, from, and the reason why I'm asking this question is because, you know, for the

00:20:43.360 viewer, we don't know North Korea, uh, because we've not been there, right? Obviously we had

00:20:49.040 the enemy park. She gave a whole different perspective. And then we hear what we hear in

00:20:52.800 the news and how, uh, close North Korea is with China and China has North Korea is back and not a

00:20:59.120 lot of countries trust, trust North Korea. And you hear human trafficking, you hear all these other

00:21:03.840 things, torture, all these things you hear about. And if you look at all the countries in the world,

00:21:07.760 the darkest country in the world with lights is North Korea. And for someone like you, that's there 1.00

00:21:13.600 visually, it's, it, it helps the world audience, especially since we have 190 different countries

00:21:19.920 plus that follow the content here, it helps for them to get a little bit more educated on what

00:21:24.480 happens in some of these prisons of North Korea for us to get educated. So if you could give us the

00:21:29.920 humane side of what it was, where the people are, the people is different than the government

00:21:34.800 and, and the torture side or the challenge, what are the polar opposite sides for us to get

00:21:40.880 better perspective? What would that be? I think because, because we were foreign journalists and

00:21:48.000 then there were very slight slings of chance that they would send us back home. I think they were

00:21:55.280 careful with us, what we can see, what we cannot see. So in, at the border, when we were in the cell,

00:22:02.400 it was just a regular cell that anybody just seen, like maybe it's a cell that North Korean defectors

00:22:07.840 like would go in there too. So it was a poor condition. They did not have, the bathroom condition was horrible

00:22:16.960 and just food was just poor. We received a small vegetable, like cabbage dish with a porridge that I

00:22:25.440 don't even know if it was rice or it was corn. That was a condition, true condition. But when we moved

00:22:32.240 to, when we moved to, when we moved to Pyongyang, it luckily I was putting in a place that it's like

00:22:39.680 I guess the house had a place with a bedroom and then right next to it was a guard room. But even,

00:22:48.240 it doesn't matter where you are putting in, you are what, you're a prisoner, watch 24-7 by guards.

00:22:55.520 And then they were recorded every conversation that happened with me or any of my activities.

00:23:01.280 And as you know, US does not have a diplomatic relations with North Korea. So I was not able

00:23:09.120 to visit it. I mean, no one was able to visit me for 140 days except the Swedish ambassador who visited us,

00:23:17.040 I think twice, I think twice. And it was about 10 minutes each time. So I dealt with the four words

00:23:26.560 every day. And you know how your life goes by so fast here, we're so busy with all this kind of

00:23:33.920 information. There, a day felt like a 10-year. And yes, they did not hit me physically. And I'm very,

00:23:46.800 I feel very lucky. But that's just me. I know so many testimonies out there

00:23:55.200 from North Korean defectors, how physically they were harmed, and abused. And whenever I received

00:24:03.200 a simple meal, the it was rice and soup and some fried fish and vegetables, very simple meal. But

00:24:12.160 even that, I was so thankful because I know so many North Koreans out, were not even getting those kind

00:24:19.280 of meals. Now the 140 days while you're there. Are you and Laura in the same room? Or no, you and Laura

00:24:27.680 are not seeing each other at all? No. After we knew we were next to each other when we were at the

00:24:35.360 border cell. When they moved us to Pyongyang in the middle of the journey, they separated us. And I, we

00:24:44.000 didn't know we were not going to see each other until we came home. You knew that already, that you're

00:24:50.160 not going to see each other until you come home. No, we didn't. No, we didn't. And did they use

00:24:54.720 manipulative tactics to pin you guys against each other? Oh, Laura said this. Oh, Yuna said this. Oh,

00:25:00.000 Laura said this. Oh, she already told us the truth. Oh, you know, were they using those stories to pin

00:25:04.960 you guys against each other or no? They did. They did a pretty good job on it. They were trying to get all

00:25:11.120 the information, including the sources that we met in China. But luckily, Laura does not speak

00:25:18.960 Korean. So she couldn't pronounce anybody's name correctly. And at the time, I knew just one guy's

00:25:25.920 name very clearly, but I would not really say his name because I knew that she couldn't, she doesn't,

00:25:31.520 she didn't know his name. And the rest of them, it was a, I was in so sharp mode that I couldn't even

00:25:39.760 remember the details, even though they repeated me to say this and that. And I just could not

00:25:44.560 remember the details. So they did not get much out of us. That, that is, uh, that is fascinating

00:25:52.400 that she did. Now, Laura Ling, was she born in the States? I know you were born in South Korea. Was

00:25:57.120 she born in the States? I believe so. Okay. Got it. And you were born in South Korea.

00:26:02.560 Hmm. And how old were you when you came to the States or you left South Korea?

00:26:07.040 Uh, 24. I pretty much grew up in South Korea. So, uh, yeah. And, and your reasoning for leaving

00:26:15.280 was to go to the art school, I believe, right? To come out here and go to art school. And I think

00:26:19.840 even eventually, well, recently after you got out in 2012, I think you got a degree from Columbia

00:26:25.680 University, I believe. Yeah. So, um, well, I started film because even when I was young,

00:26:33.680 I knew that film has a good, uh, powerful impact on people's lives. And I saw some of, uh, uh, people

00:26:40.960 who made the story about a massacre in South Korea in 1980s, in one city that was really, the people

00:26:48.960 were killed by, uh, armies, but the story didn't, uh, was not going out. So, uh, those films was going,

00:27:00.560 we, they, this group actually projected this film in colleges, uh, in, uh, late eighties. And then

00:27:08.160 they were chased by police officers because of the directions. So I knew how much impact that film can

00:27:13.920 make. And slowly that when I came here, after I came here, I got a job at a TV, uh, station and

00:27:23.360 I wanted to do something more, uh, rewarding. I didn't know what that was. And then the documentary

00:27:29.120 came to the opportunity came to, to me. It's still today, documentary production isn't, isn't,

00:27:37.680 there isn't many opportunities for documentary journalists. And that was, we were very lucky to

00:27:42.960 have that opportunity. And, um, yeah, uh, that's how I ended up working on documentaries after 2000

00:27:51.760 incident. I kept thinking that what did I do wrong? What did I do wrong? Well, how could I have made it

00:27:58.400 better? And that brought me to decide to go to, uh, the, you know, the best journalism school in the US.

00:28:06.560 So I studied journalism at Columbia. It's very impressive. I mean, it, it, it doesn't get better

00:28:11.280 than that. It's one of the best of the best out there. People who know the world, it's a

00:28:14.880 great school to go to now, you know, for somebody that lived in South Korea for two, I lived in Iran

00:28:19.600 for 10 years. And I remember going to school and all I heard a million times was mad, bad on recall,

00:28:24.080 mad, bad on recall, which is death upon America. And America was the worst country in the world.

00:28:30.320 They hated people. They hated Iran. They bullied everybody. It was all these bad things. I always read

00:28:35.360 read about Iran, right? Growing up in school in South Korea, a free nation. You're not necessarily 0.98

00:28:42.560 dealing with, you know, uh, all the other things that North Korea deals with. I think there was an

00:28:47.440 army base in Korea called Camp Casey. A lot of our soldiers used to go to Camp Casey, but when you

00:28:53.040 were growing up in South Korea in school, cartoons, education, history, how did South Korea's educational

00:29:00.240 system and media paint America? How did they paint Russia? How did they paint China? And how did they

00:29:06.640 paint North Korea? I'm curious. Oh, I, you know, actually, I don't really remember how they painted

00:29:14.880 about other countries like Iran and China back then, but North Korea was hardly mentioned on news

00:29:22.240 at the time of Negro. It was only the top propaganda like education taught in schools that how we have 0.94

00:29:30.720 to be careful about the North Korean supplies still out there. We need to report to police. We made the 1.00

00:29:36.720 poster about how we can protect our country from North Korea because they went through Korean wars and 0.99

00:29:43.040 they did not want us to go through another war. Um, North Korea and South are technically on their

00:29:51.040 army states, right? Since, uh, uh, Korean war ended in 1953. So it doesn't mean that we're still in

00:29:58.800 our peace. We're still, it's under army. So that's the education that we received. And about America,

00:30:07.040 I think they had the two different views about America. Some people really appreciate America's health

00:30:12.560 for Korean war. And some people blame America that the Korean division was because of American and

00:30:19.440 Russian support. That's how much I remember. That's how much you remember when you were there.

00:30:24.400 Got it. So, so why do you think you said the media didn't say anything about North Korea, but education

00:30:29.680 did? Is that what you were saying? That media wasn't talking bad things about North Korea,

00:30:34.640 but educational system was. It was just not, we did not really talk here about North Korea on media

00:30:40.640 like today's, but you hear about North Korea, all the details. There are so many defectors,

00:30:45.280 there's about 30,000 defectors living in South Korea. Now they really speak about human rights

00:30:50.800 violations in North Korea. And some people who speak English, English calling out international

00:30:57.760 attention on North Korean defector situation in China. So, so for you, when you went through the 140

00:31:04.640 days of being there, did any of your opinion about North Korea change? Oh, I'm sorry, Patrick, can you

00:31:11.360 repeat it again? Yes. When you went to North Korea and you were there for 140 days, I mean, in the military

00:31:17.200 jail, all these other places, and you know, your, you know, all these things that they're doing to you,

00:31:23.760 did your opinion about North Korea change? Meaning, did it get worse or did it get better or just different?

00:31:29.280 It's different. I saw, I kind of understood where they're coming from, and why they hate

00:31:40.320 South Korea so much, why they hate the U.S. so much. And that's something that similar experience

00:31:46.400 that I had growing up in South Korea, that they taught propaganda towards South Korea as well. So I

00:31:53.360 understood where they're coming from. At the same time, I felt very sad for the people in North Korea,

00:31:58.960 North Korea because they're getting limited, edited information. So the information they're receiving

00:32:05.520 from their government is partially true and then partially incorrect. And that's a, it was something

00:32:12.880 that unbelievable for me to see that these people are watching the news about an old lady, blind lady, 1.00

00:32:22.320 opened her eyes because after drinking some drink from their leader. And who would believe that story?

00:32:31.200 And these people are watching this kind of news stories and they believe it. They watch about how

00:32:37.200 horrible economic situation and a horrible human condition in South Korea and Western countries.

00:32:42.560 That's what they believe in. That's how much they know.

00:32:47.920 When you, when you were in South Korea and there was 30,000, you said 30,000 defectors today. I don't

00:32:51.920 know the exact number when you left because you lived there 24 years. That's a long time to live over

00:32:55.920 there, 24 years. Did you have any friends that were defectors? Did you have any, uh, classmates that

00:33:02.160 were defectors? Did you have any peers you were spending time with that were defectors?

00:33:05.600 Oh, you did not? Nobody? No, it wasn't a big, big number. The, you know, you have to have a broker

00:33:12.720 nowadays to escape North Korea. At that time, it wasn't a big, big deal. Even 2004, there weren't

00:33:19.360 many, 2009, there weren't many numbers who settled in South Korea. There were some studies that from

00:33:25.600 international organizations and news reports said that there were about 150 to 300,000

00:33:31.840 North Korean defectors living in China, but none of the number was, uh, just, uh, you can really say

00:33:38.000 which number is correct. But until 2019, there are about a little bit over 30,000 North Korean defectors

00:33:46.880 settled in South Korea. Did you have any friends and coworkers and classmates that escaped North Korea

00:33:52.160 to come live in South Korea that you befriended? No, it would be very rare situation. If, even if they,

00:33:59.040 uh, escaped North Korea in certain ways that they would be quiet. So, I had no friends who came from 0.79

00:34:07.200 North Korea. But, uh, after, after I came home, I made some friends, uh, defector, uh, North Korean defectors.

00:34:15.760 Did they change your mind at all about North Korea or did it make you, uh, see even the uglier side 0.99

00:34:23.680 that they're, you know, uh, maybe hiding from the populace? Because one of the things that you said,

00:34:29.200 which was very interesting is when you went to the prison, the 140 days that you were there,

00:34:34.400 they didn't really combine you with other prisoners because if they were by any chance going to free you,

00:34:38.560 they didn't want you to have that story to go back and tell the world. So, when you did get a

00:34:42.560 chance to spend some time with some of the defectors, did, did you sit there and say,

00:34:47.120 I cannot believe the atrocities that, uh, the government it's, you know, passing down to the

00:34:51.680 people that, did, did you experience that hearing the stories? No, actually, we never really talked

00:34:57.440 about North Korea when we sat together, but you know, how more, more like, you know, how we can help

00:35:02.720 these people, like, to, uh, the situation better. Not people in North Korea, but people in, uh, in

00:35:10.640 China. Uh, that's something that we, we talk about, but it's not about like North Korean government

00:35:16.720 because we already all know. Even though I did not have that experience, I read so many stories, uh,

00:35:21.680 uh, from North Korean defectors, what they faced when they are, when they, when Chinese government

00:35:27.920 forced them back, repatriation on them, they would face, they would go to labor camps,

00:35:36.400 re-educational camps, or political camps, some are executed. So we, we already know the story

00:35:41.600 that how horrible situation they would put it in if they are captured in China and send back to North

00:35:48.720 Korea. Oh, so a lot of the folks from North Korea that escaped to China didn't want to tell anybody

00:35:54.720 because if they were captured, the Chinese government would send them back to North Korea.

00:35:58.640 That is the problem because Chinese government, even though international law and experts and then 0.99

00:36:04.960 international organizations sees that North Korea defector situation as the, um, the refugee category

00:36:12.400 of the UN's convention in relation to their refugee status, China denies to give them refugee status,

00:36:19.440 asylum status. So, and they see them as a labor immigrant. So they would send back to North Korea where 0.96

00:36:28.000 they face persecutions. It's what I experienced myself as well. A lot of people that were escaping Iran

00:36:35.360 that came to the States. I even remember Ayatollah Khomeini telling the, uh, Carter that,

00:36:40.080 Hey, send back the shot to Iran. We'll take care of him. And they wouldn't want to do it because they were going to 1.00

00:36:44.960 experience persecution. A lot of the people that were Baha'i religion, they were being found and a

00:36:50.160 lot of bad things happened to them. There was a, even a comedian in Germany that was found at his

00:36:54.640 hotel room, I believe that, uh, that's his last name, but the story is a pretty ugly story what they

00:37:00.640 did to them. So I wouldn't be surprised, but if you don't mind continuing the whole 140 days,

00:37:05.920 you know, some other experiencing leading to the end of it. Is there any other thing that's visual that

00:37:11.680 sticks to you till today that, uh, you're comfortable sharing with the rest of us?

00:37:16.400 Something that actually, um, I remember is because of the North Korean that it's portrayed on media,

00:37:23.760 maybe not nowadays anymore, but back then they were like, people like we, we've seen people like

00:37:31.360 crying, group of people crying for, uh, at the, uh, for their leader staff. And then we just, uh,

00:37:38.720 don't understand that how someone, somebody can, the person can be so loyal to this leader

00:37:43.760 or this country. And they were, we thought they were very robotic people, but in some way that the

00:37:50.640 people were like people, human. And I saw, whenever I saw people like making small chats or a smiling,

00:37:59.760 have a smile on their faces. That was something that like jarring moments to me.

00:38:06.080 Uh, I don't think I understood. What, what, what do you mean by that? The smiling faces?

00:38:12.720 It's a, I would not think that they would smile naturally. You know, if they would smile when

00:38:18.160 they're told to smile, they would cry when they're told to smile. I didn't think they have a, uh,

00:38:23.360 free, free to express themselves, but there were moments that I saw that they had a free

00:38:28.960 expressions that that was, that told me that they were human like us. That's when I stopped to

00:38:34.800 humanitize, humanitize them. Is that the moment where you spent some time with the two guards,

00:38:40.400 the guard A and guard B, the two ladies? That's some moments that I, I spent time

00:38:47.440 and some of the moments that I spent, uh, with my interrogators and some of the scenes that I watched

00:38:53.280 on TV. And I had a very small limited access to interact with people. Uh, but even that, that's,

00:39:01.600 that's a sense that I received in guards. A often asked me like, how do you pronounce this?

00:39:08.240 She studied in English. And that's another thing that I was surprised because, uh, um, back when I was

00:39:14.960 young then I, I was told that North Korea does not teach people English because the U.S. is their enemy,

00:39:22.960 right? So they were running Russian as a second language. But, um, what I saw was people were very

00:39:29.680 interested in learning English because it's an international language. They wanted to be part of

00:39:34.240 the international. Um, so they were learning English and this guard was, uh, learning English. They were singing.

00:39:42.960 I don't know if they were trained or planned to sing. They were singing a song. Some Indians, 0.99

00:39:47.680 my heart will go on. And those are the moments that like, wow, you know, did I think that the

00:39:53.280 North Koreans were, uh, did I have to illustrate a type of North Korean? Did I equate North Korean people

00:40:01.600 with, uh, this government, North Korean government too much?

00:40:06.720 Did I equate the North Korean people with the North Korean government? Are you trying to say

00:40:12.240 that maybe the North Korean government was vicious and, uh, uh, you know,

00:40:19.840 no lack of accountability or concern for human rights while the human, the people of North Korea

00:40:26.480 were regular people like you and I, is that kind of what you're saying? You found a way to differentiate

00:40:30.640 between the two? Yes, uh, you're correct. You're correct. Even though we see North Korea as a regime 0.86

00:40:36.960 and then the, the brutal country that has no human rights, you know, has human rights violation all 0.66

00:40:42.720 the time in the country, but the people are people. The policy is towards North Korea. We,

00:40:48.320 we can't forget about that. There are people living in that country.

00:40:51.360 Do you, do you think sometimes the way the media pins North Korea makes us look at all North Koreans

00:40:59.840 that way? Is that what you think happens sometimes?

00:41:02.000 And Nisa, Nisa, I grew up like that, you know, watching and reading about North Korea that it was, 0.88

00:41:08.080 it was hard to separate the people of North Korea with the government.

00:41:11.600 So, so at what point did you, when, when, when you were going through this 140 days,

00:41:17.600 at what point did you hear that you're going to get sentenced for 12 years? When,

00:41:21.280 when was that moment when you got word, you're going to get 12 years of labor? How did that happen?

00:41:26.160 So after about three months of interrogations, uh, we were, uh, asked that there will be a trier. 0.99

00:41:35.520 And, uh, the North Korean government after you offered me a lawyer that if I want to use their lawyer,

00:41:43.280 and I refused to use a lawyer. And, um, uh, it was about three days trial. And at the end of the trial,

00:41:51.920 it was June 3rd. I believe that they sentenced me, uh, for 12 years in labor camp.

00:41:58.960 12 years in labor camp. And when, when that news was given to you, what was your reaction? And were

00:42:07.200 you and Laura together when you were told 12 years? We were in the court together. It doesn't

00:42:13.200 mean that we're talking to each other, but yes. And that was the first time that I really, uh, crashed

00:42:19.840 it. And I held a pretty strong point to that moment. And when I heard 12 years, um, I, I didn't think

00:42:28.720 that I would have, I could survive for 12 years. I was already physically so weak. And then, um,

00:42:34.560 just thinking about not seeing my daughter at the time, she was four, for 12 years. And I just

00:42:42.480 couldn't, I just couldn't handle it. So I crashed it on the ground and then cried. I didn't care who

00:42:48.320 was watching me, but I cried really loud.

00:42:51.360 You know, it seems like you didn't want to show any weakness to these folks for 140 days. Why is that?

00:43:00.960 I, I thought if, uh, I think that's the part of, that's, uh, probably same as I giving up, uh,

00:43:09.200 if I become weak, I thought that I'm giving up hope, assumes of hope. So I had to be strong and

00:43:17.120 then hopeful. Then there's a, every day I felt like it's a one day closer to go home. That was,

00:43:24.320 uh, that, that's how I stayed strong until they told me 12 years.

00:43:31.440 So when they told you 12 years, did you at that point have the ability to make any phone calls or

00:43:36.240 no, that was it. You're going back to work and, you know, do what you do, or how quickly did you get

00:43:42.880 some good news, uh, regarding the 12 years? It was June 3rd and June 4th that I heard it was 12 years.

00:43:51.520 And then, um, they were, I heard that they were discussing, um, that where labor camp that they're

00:43:59.200 going to send. I think they were in discussion because, uh, the interrogator, uh, he, the interrogator

00:44:07.920 who told me that, uh, that you might be together with Laura or one day came, you know, story is

00:44:15.120 different. And, but, um, we came on, on August, uh, 4th. So two months for two months, they were still

00:44:23.520 discussing the weather, what, whether, whether they're going to actually send us to the labor camp,

00:44:27.920 but I don't know, but we were, I was just praying that when I get out of this place, I'll go home,

00:44:34.640 not a labor camp because the labor camp, uh, um, the stories is just, uh, under human conditions.

00:44:45.840 And, uh, I already learned about from defector stories. So I couldn't see myself surviving in a

00:44:52.720 labor camp. What, what did you hear that happened at the labor camps?

00:44:55.840 There's hardly, there are hardly any food. And then you do the hard labors for all day. And some

00:45:03.840 people, because of the lack of food that you receive, some people are even just to catch mouths

00:45:09.600 and like they, they try to survive themselves in mouths and things like that. So, um, and they,

00:45:16.560 they say that they see people dying, uh, in their cells. And some people don't even care because

00:45:22.720 they're so hungry and starting. And when they receive food, your person next to you just died.

00:45:29.680 And then you to get that food to eat because you're hungry. That's a, that's the kind of stories.

00:45:36.400 And that I heard over and over, uh,

00:45:39.440 How did the news get delivered to you that you're going to be free and being able to come back home?

00:45:45.360 So I was lucky to receive some matters from home. Of course, there's no news about me coming home,

00:45:54.000 but I, I learned that how a lot of people were working on our cases that, you know, raising voices.

00:46:01.040 You can see in the back here, back banner that I, um, kept it from 2009. It was from one of the

00:46:08.560 details that people wrote messages to us that stay strong. So that was a message that I received from home.

00:46:16.000 And North Korean, uh, government did not even tell us until we come home that we're going to go home.

00:46:22.560 They, the day before we came home, they told us that you have a visitor

00:46:27.280 from the U S and very high official visitor. And then I asked, uh, the guy who delivered the message,

00:46:36.160 I asked him, is there a way to, is this moving forward? Or is this a way it tends to go backward?

00:46:42.000 And he said, Oh, I think it's moving forward. So I knew that was, there was something that

00:46:46.720 good things going on. And, uh, they took, that was the first day, uh, that, um, except, uh, except

00:46:54.960 at the corridor, except that was the first that I met with Laura and that we were able to talk.

00:47:00.880 And then they sent us a hotel. It was a Korean hotel. And then they had us wait in the room for

00:47:06.640 over an hour. And I, uh, talked to Laura and who do you think it's who visited us?

00:47:12.080 And I told her if it's, she goes, maybe Jimmy Carter, or is this, you know, with Bill Anderson,

00:47:17.680 we told, we talked about all the names that we, we knew who's associated with the North Korea.

00:47:22.800 We, Bill Clinton wasn't, President Bill Clinton wasn't even on the list. And, and I told Laura,

00:47:28.880 I don't think I would recognize Jimmy Carter if he, President Jimmy Carter is there.

00:47:32.640 And he's all the image that I remember is an old picture. And, and they finally told us that

00:47:39.280 you're going to go to that room. And when we walked to the room, there were some people with, uh, not

00:47:45.200 Korean people with the earpiece and then standing around. So we knew that, okay, somebody was very 1.00

00:47:51.040 important to see here. And there were two double doors and they opened the double door. There was a

00:47:57.680 President Bill Clinton standing with, uh, his gray hair, had a big light, the window that had light

00:48:05.600 backdrop on him. And, uh, and he looked like an angel to me. So he opened his arms and we ran towards him.

00:48:12.160 And, um, and, um, he gave us a hug and he asked us if, well, we're doing okay, physically doing okay. Um,

00:48:21.280 he told us that, nah, um, um, I can't promise you anything at this moment, but are we, if we go, will you be able to,

00:48:30.640 uh, be on the plane physically? And we, we told him like, of course, I'm not going to say no. Yeah, yes, yes.

00:48:37.840 And we saw him meeting, uh, North Korean leader at the time, Kim Jong-il, uh, and, uh, on the news.

00:48:48.480 And so Kim Jong-il kind of had a smile on his face on the news pictures. So we thought like, oh,

00:48:55.520 something's going on. Something's getting better, getting better. And, uh, Laura was excited and I

00:49:01.120 was excited at the same time too. We're still in the same room. And I, I told her, let's not open the

00:49:06.560 champagne butter yet. I, so I kept praying and kept praying until about four in the morning,

00:49:12.640 they told us pack our stuff. And then we went, we were pardoned and we went to the airport,

00:49:20.640 get on the plane. At what point did you fully feel free? Like, did you feel free at that moment when

00:49:26.560 you were pardoned or when the plane took off? And when you were on the plane, were you on the plane

00:49:31.200 with, uh, President Clinton or you were on a separate plane? No, we were on the, uh, playing

00:49:36.400 with the President Clinton and his team. And he had, uh, uh, uh, he, he asked us if we want to make

00:49:44.400 phone call to home, uh, to family. So we're still on the, uh, uh, North Korean soil and we, I made

00:49:51.520 the phone call to my husband and I told him again, I'm the plane with President Clinton. He goes, don't,

00:49:56.960 no, no, don't call me back when you're in the air. So he did not want to open the champagne yet

00:50:03.920 until the plane takes off. So I called him back after the plane takes off. And then I finally felt

00:50:10.560 everything felt so surreal. You know, you're a prisoner in North Korea for 140 days. And next day

00:50:16.000 you are in a private jet with the President Clinton and everything felt so surreal.

00:50:21.040 When you land and you're getting off the plane and you see, uh, the picture of your daughter

00:50:27.920 hugging you in that moment, what are you, what are you thinking? Are you, do you still remember

00:50:32.080 it till today? Can you go to that emotion till today to know what it felt like to hold your daughter

00:50:36.800 again? Yeah, of course. That was, uh, the moment that makes me really emotional, but the happiest moment

00:50:44.960 at the same time, um, I, when I, um, walked to her, I thought that she would recognize me right away.

00:50:59.680 I didn't know how much the performance would do to this four-year-old girl. And she looked

00:51:05.920 very confused. So I opened my arms and Hannah, can you give me a hug? It's mommy. And she gave me a hug.

00:51:13.680 And then that's a, that's the moment that I felt like I wanted this moment so badly. I wanted to hold

00:51:19.680 my baby so badly. And yeah. I mean, when you watch it, you know, your daughter, you know, that was,

00:51:28.720 she's 15 now, your daughter at four, she was hanging on to you like glue. You couldn't separate her from

00:51:35.920 you the way she was hugging you. It's very emotional as a parent watching that moment, uh, what it felt like

00:51:42.240 for you, uh, and your husband being there. And it's just a, it's a fascinating story to see

00:51:48.560 you guys decide to your story of you wanting to get into film because you want to make impact and

00:51:54.880 you choose documentary, which at a point where it's not really a lot of jobs to do, it's tough to make

00:51:59.600 money in documentary to hire people. And you had the privilege of doing that. And you take a project like

00:52:04.480 this and right before coming to the States, you guys get captured. Uh, uh, it's a powerful story.

00:52:09.920 You know, uh, as you, as you look back now, that was 2009 to tune that to now a lot's changed. You

00:52:19.520 know, it's a different world we're living in today than 2009. And when things like this happen to you,

00:52:24.880 you know, sometimes it makes us want to research a topic a little bit more because we're so close to

00:52:29.280 it. When a kid grows in a foster home and he ages, he kind of wants to find a way to give back to

00:52:34.800 foster kids. When somebody is raised in a domestic violence environment and the son sees daddy abusing

00:52:41.840 mom, that son wants to do something for domestic violence. You know, when somebody experienced human 0.68

00:52:46.240 rights, they want to give back for human rights. Where you're at right now and what you experience,

00:52:51.280 what is your opinion now about Kim Jong-un and North Korea? You mean the current leader of Kim Jong-un?

00:53:00.320 The current leader. Yes. Forgive my pronunciation. So I may have pronounced it wrong, but yes,

00:53:05.520 the current leader. Well, what am I, what's my opinion about Kim Jong-un?

00:53:11.120 Um, there are news about him that how he's, uh, he, to be honest with you, um,

00:53:23.120 it's not because of, uh, I had the experience with, uh, um, because of my experience in North Korea.

00:53:30.320 It doesn't mean that I follow the North Korean news every day. It's more like, I do feel responsible for 0.89

00:53:36.640 people in North Korea and people who we met for the interview for the documentaries because,

00:53:44.480 because, uh, we never had a documentary released as we, uh, promised. Although our case that told

00:53:54.400 the bigger story about North Korean defector situation, but that there are some parts for me to

00:53:59.840 feel, um, guilty that I did not meet the, meet their promise. And, but, uh, for the countries,

00:54:11.520 it doesn't mean that I was following the news on the North Korean leaders and North Korean, the country,

00:54:15.920 uh, the, the current situation. I don't think their situation is better,

00:54:22.560 better than 10 years ago. Even though North Korea has a different tactics right now,

00:54:27.040 they have YouTube channels to connect with the viewers. They know that how their country has

00:54:32.000 been seen in a dark, uh, the way that it's human rights violations and the dark, you know,

00:54:38.000 economic conditions and people are starting. So they don't want to show those kinds of words. So

00:54:42.800 what they're doing is now they are, they want to refresh their image. So they have a YouTube channel

00:54:47.600 showing that how wonderful Pyongyang is, all those things, but that's Pyongyang. We all know that Pyongyang is a, 0.97

00:54:53.680 if you are a citizen living in Pyongyang, you're a special citizen. But what about the, what about

00:54:58.960 the rest of the countries that people live in? And, um, I heard about the sanctions making their

00:55:05.120 economy conditions more difficult and people are starting to having difficult times. So I, on and off,

00:55:12.800 I think about them and then, you know, my job is continue to produce stories that, that, that true

00:55:21.280 information, deliver true information for the people who are in the place and countries like North Korea,

00:55:28.240 otherwise they can't get the truth. And part of the reason that I work for Voice of America is because,

00:55:35.600 uh, the Korean, uh, service was starting to TV team in 2017. Um, they, they, they produced news for

00:55:46.720 people in North Korea. And, uh, that's a part of the reason that I, uh, decided to work for Voice of

00:55:52.000 America. And now I don't, I no longer will build the Korean, the Korean service, but the, it's a broader

00:55:58.480 aspect that, uh, will continue to strategize, uh, videos, efforts for Voice of America. So we continue

00:56:06.560 to provide this information for not only people in North Korea, but people in countries like Iran,

00:56:12.720 China and Russia, other, otherwise they wouldn't get the truth.

00:56:17.600 You know, uh, you know, uh, forgive me if, if I'm wrong here. Uh, uh, and I'm, if I'm wrong,

00:56:23.440 just say, Pat, you're absolutely wrong. I get a feeling you, you hold back a little bit, uh, going

00:56:29.840 against North Korea, uh, where you're either, uh, uh, being extra careful, uh, or you're, um, you're almost

00:56:40.720 not wanting to kind of, uh, uh, say anything bad, uh, against, uh, uh, regime of North Korea.

00:56:47.600 Am I wrong? Or is there a little bit of hesitation on your end?

00:56:51.600 No, you, it's not, no, I don't, I don't have a hesitation, but what I'm careful is I don't,

00:56:58.880 I don't want, because of what we, Korea news out there, I don't want people to forget about people

00:57:05.600 living in North Korea. You know, of course we have to throw the sanction. Of course we have to, uh, 1.00

00:57:11.280 stop the regime to, to test missile, all these things. But, you know, like Iran,

00:57:17.760 when there was sanction on Iran, what I heard from Iranian people, friends, what they're saying is that

00:57:23.120 the people suffer. The who suffer is not government, it's the people. So that's what I'm careful about.

00:57:30.240 When I say something towards North Korea, I don't want people to forget about, you know, 1.00

00:57:35.120 when you focus on the government, how horrible this government is, but there are people living

00:57:40.320 in that horrible country. Uh, uh, so, so you're referencing the fact that sanctions are what made

00:57:49.520 the conditions bad in North Korea and Iran, not necessarily the government is, is that kind of

00:57:54.800 what you're insinuating or no? No, that's, uh, one, of course, um, I'm just example in sanctions

00:58:04.080 because the sanctions, you are from Iran and sanctions on Iran and North Korea are similar

00:58:10.080 situations. But what we need to be, that's the politics, that's politics, the government, the

00:58:18.560 government, but the, for the human level that we have to think about people.

00:58:26.320 Yeah, no, I, I fully agree. But, uh, you know, what do you do with a government? That's not,

00:58:31.200 that doesn't prioritize human rights, that doesn't value human rights, that doesn't, uh, look at people

00:58:37.920 as any kind of value. Do you just let them do everything you can in your power, or do you impose

00:58:44.000 sanctions for them to know that you can't go abusing people like this your entire life? We

00:58:49.840 have to find a way to have some kind of a revolutionary regime change, because if it continues, people's

00:58:55.120 lives are going to be continuously taken. So what do you do about it? Do you just sit on the sidelines

00:58:58.960 and watch it happen? Or do you find ways? I don't have an answer for it, Patrick. And then you know that

00:59:06.720 I'm not saying that we just let them abuse people, right? The government abuse people.

00:59:11.120 Yeah. And, um, while governments, you know, doing their part, I think that our people, as journalists,

00:59:19.440 we have our job to do it as well. We will continue to report, you know, about human rights violation in

00:59:26.320 the countries. We don't stop reporting about the conditions. But what I am, you mentioned that I'm

00:59:33.840 being careful about talking about North Korean government. It's not because I agree with what

00:59:41.600 they're doing. It's because I'm careful because I don't want people to have the same experience

00:59:50.960 with what I had. I, I, I dehumanitize them. When I grew up in South Korea, heard about so many 0.99

00:59:59.120 news about North Korean government, that there was no people in my mind.

01:00:06.080 Maybe I don't understand what you mean by that. So are you, are you saying that even the powerful

01:00:11.120 people in the government that are seen evil, even deep down inside, they're good people where they,

01:00:17.760 there are people like you and I, is, is that what you're saying?

01:00:21.280 Just average people. That's what I'm saying. Because we, the powerful people that we are so

01:00:26.000 focusing on, we are, we forget about the people, average people.

01:00:30.000 You know, the question then becomes, what do you do for these guys? You know, how do you,

01:00:32.960 how do you help them? You know? I mean, the media has to do their best to do what they do,

01:00:37.920 but then what do governments do? I lived in Iran and you know, I, I wish the Iranian revolution

01:00:44.160 would have never happened because I would still be living in Iran. Uh, I wish there was, uh, uh, 1.00

01:00:49.680 cause the moment the revolution in Iran happened, conditions in Iran got worse. A half a million

01:00:53.840 people died in war. That shouldn't have happened. We didn't need to have a war like that. But, uh,

01:00:58.320 unfortunately things change in Iran when Carter came and visited and he left right after he left,

01:01:02.960 the revolution started in Iran and it costs a lot of people's lives. And, uh,

01:01:07.120 uh, you know, these kinds of memories, they stay, you know, because you experience it firsthand.

01:01:11.600 So you, so you, so you think about it and you remember it from that perspective. So do you think

01:01:17.360 just last question on this topic here, do you think the approach being taken from other countries

01:01:22.560 around the world towards countries like North Korea, China, and Iran is the right way to go about 1.00

01:01:29.200 this with sanctions or do you think there's better ways to go about it?

01:01:34.320 Um, um, it's a, you can never find the right, like the perfect answer for it. Governments make that

01:01:44.720 decision because they believe in that it is, uh, the right decision. Right. And, um, I think a story

01:01:53.200 will tell when at the end, uh, later, later that if, uh, it was working or not.

01:02:01.440 So I do something at the end called speed round and I'll give you a name for one word that comes

01:02:06.160 to mind. So what are your thoughts when you think about Bill Clinton?

01:02:09.840 My rescuer, your rescuer, I bet. Of course. Uh, what do you think about when you think about,

01:02:15.440 uh, uh, Barack Obama? What did I think of Barack Obama? One word. He has a heart for, uh, average

01:02:25.840 person like me. Okay. Very cool. What do you think about, uh, Trump? Trump? Trump. He communicates

01:02:35.840 on social media. Okay, good. That's a safe answer. How about Kim Jong-un? Kim Jong-un, he's, uh, a young

01:02:45.360 mind leader that once made change of North Korea, but did not make change much. Okay. And then Biden.

01:02:55.040 Biden? Oh, who was running against Trump. Who was running against Trump. You know,

01:03:01.040 you should consider politics because you're very political with your answers. I think you could,

01:03:05.840 you could have a career in politics, but look, more than anything else, uh, uh, uh, I, um,

01:03:12.400 I'll give you the final thoughts, you know, with, with everybody watching everything and seeing

01:03:17.360 what's going on with the current conditions in the world today. What are your final thoughts thinking

01:03:22.240 what the future is going to be for folks who are, uh, living in North Korea and how we can, uh,

01:03:29.360 what we can do, you know, positive thoughts, positive for, you know, outlook on what could potentially

01:03:34.400 happen in the future with the folks in North Korea? Um, you know, like I recently worked on a history, uh,

01:03:40.400 history, uh, pilot that was about Berlin Wong, that how it collapsed because of the collective

01:03:49.440 will of young people. I know it's, uh, so hard for North Korean to have a collective voices because

01:03:57.200 they're watching each other. But one day I hope that they will be able to have a collective voice.

01:04:03.760 They will be able to have a will to have, to find their freedom.

01:04:12.080 I love that. And I hope they get a chance to see this, to have your point of view. I know it's been 11

01:04:17.120 years since the event, but, uh, every once in a while, it's good to be reminded of history and

01:04:21.760 things that have been taking place. And I appreciate you being willing to relive that

01:04:26.320 moment for the last hour and give us a different perspective of what it was like to be a political

01:04:31.840 person, not even a political person, but be a prisoner for 140 days and eventually be free. So,

01:04:36.640 uh, you know, Lee, again, thank you for your time. We're going to put the link below to your book

01:04:41.360 for anybody that wants your book. You can go to the link below and be able to order her book.

01:04:45.920 The stories are even deeper in her book. I know it's been 11 years, but she gives a complete

01:04:49.440 different optic on what she experienced. And with that being said, you know, Lee, again,

01:04:53.600 thank you for making it time for being a guest on by entertainment.

01:04:56.800 Thank you so much, Patrick.

01:04:57.920 So different than, uh, you know, me parks interview that I did a few weeks ago where she was a defector

01:05:03.280 escape in North Korea at 13 years old. She goes to China and she becomes a slave. She gets sold

01:05:10.240 for two, $300 and finally goes to South Korea, eventually finds her way here.

01:05:14.320 But here's a story of somebody that was in South Korea for 24 years, comes to the States,

01:05:18.400 decides to do a documentary with her friend, Laura, and they go up there. They're about to

01:05:23.040 finish it up. They get arrested 140 days and they're supposed to do 12 years of labor, hard labor.

01:05:30.160 And they eventually are set free and she meets President Clinton and she comes back to the States.

01:05:35.440 When you heard this perspective of her story, I'm curious to know what your biggest takeaway was.

01:05:41.200 I actually am to know from you what your biggest takeaway was. From her point of view,

01:05:45.600 as somebody shooting a documentary, did it change anything on your thoughts about human rights,

01:05:50.800 about North Korea, about South Korea, about China? Anything of what she said? If yes, comment below.

01:05:55.680 And if you have not yet seen the interview with Yanomi Park where she gave a speech nine years ago,

01:06:01.920 eight years ago, in two days she got 50 million views when she gave that speech at a young age.

01:06:07.520 And then we had a chance to do a follow-up interview with her. If you've not seen that yet,

01:06:11.040 it's very powerful. Click over here to watch that interview. And if you've not subscribed to the

01:06:15.360 channel, please do so. Thanks for watching everybody. Take care. Bye-bye.

Valuetainment - September 19, 2020

How North Korea Captured US Journalist & Kept Her For 140 Days

Episode Stats

Summary

Transcript