Valuetainment - September 19, 2020


How North Korea Captured US Journalist & Kept Her For 140 Days


Episode Stats


Length

1 hour and 6 minutes

Words per minute

170.06305

Word count

11,294

Sentence count

635

Harmful content

Misogyny

3

sentences flagged

Hate speech

31

sentences flagged


Summary

Summaries generated with gmurro/bart-large-finetuned-filtered-spotify-podcast-summ .

Yunna Lee and her partner were in the middle of filming a documentary in North Korea when they were arrested and held in a North Korean prison for 140 days. This is the story of what happened to them and how they managed to escape.

Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
Misogyny classifications generated with MilaNLProc/bert-base-uncased-ear-misogyny .
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
00:00:00.160 So we were walking the frozen river and there was no sign of a border whatsoever. No wire bars,
00:00:06.880 no sign. One of our producers shouted, soldiers. There were two small soldiers with rifles chasing
00:00:13.840 us really fast. And then I was filming as I was running. We were all captured. You shoot, don't
00:00:19.680 chew my head. I want to survive. What is the state of your mind? Are you in shock? I cannot believe we
00:00:24.640 got ourselves in a situation like this. What are you thinking in that moment when you're with Laura?
00:00:28.560 Laura told me, Hyuna, we are the enemies. We were so frightened, but we're so calm as well at the
00:00:35.440 same time. How did you guys get rid of the footage and the notes that you had? We ate the papers. The
00:00:40.560 papers you ate it. Wow. They were trying to get all the information, including the sources that we met.
00:00:46.080 Was there any torture? Was there any psychological torture? Was there fear tactics? What did you
00:00:51.200 experience during those 140 days? A day felt like a 10 year. Did your opinion about North Korea change?
00:00:57.520 Meaning did it get worse or did it get better or just different? It was hard to separate the people 1.00
00:01:02.480 of North Korea with government. You know, you're a prisoner in North Korea for 140 days,
00:01:07.360 but there are people living in that whole country. I feel very lucky.
00:01:12.640 So my guest today is Yuna Lee, who is a best way to describe her as a documentary journalist that
00:01:23.360 many years ago, more like 11 years ago, she decided to go to do a documentary with her friend,
00:01:28.400 her partner in China and North Korea. And suddenly they were arrested and they were in prison for 140
00:01:35.760 days. I'll let her tell you the whole story. It got to the point where President Clinton and President
00:01:40.240 Obama had to get involved to help them bring him back to the States, a very touching story.
00:01:44.720 And this was inspired after having a conversation with Yonomi Park. Many of you wanted to know more
00:01:50.640 about different point of views of North Korea and South Korea. So we decided to reach out to
00:01:55.040 Yuna Lee and she was kind enough to say yes. So Yuna Lee, thank you so much for being a guest on
00:01:58.720 Valuetainment. Thanks for having me.
00:02:00.880 So I know it's been a minute since this event, you know, St. Patrick's Day, March,
00:02:06.560 I want to say 17th of 2009, when you're out there trying to shoot this documentary with your partner,
00:02:12.800 I believe Laura is her name. And many times when you go through these types of experiences,
00:02:19.040 most people don't want to revisit it and keep telling a story on over and over and over again.
00:02:22.960 But, uh, you know, sometimes, uh, uh, the man upstairs or whatever you believe in tends to
00:02:29.280 use us in many different ways to either inspire, educate, or encourage others in their own ways.
00:02:36.080 And, uh, he, you know, and, and this has been you that's been chosen to have this story.
00:02:41.120 So I appreciate your agreeing to share this story, but for some of the viewers that don't know the full
00:02:44.880 story of what happened there, can you go back and kind of tell us a little bit what was the purpose
00:02:50.880 of the documentary and why did you guys choose to go to North Korea and China to shoot this and how
00:02:56.080 did this whole thing happen? Um, so before we, you know, we, I take you, you guys to the,
00:03:05.120 the fator day of March 17th. I want to, uh, share how I ended up working on that documentary about
00:03:12.240 human trafficking in China. So it was a 2005, I was working for current TV at the time,
00:03:19.040 and I got to know about documentary called Sorrow Train. It was about following, it was about
00:03:24.720 North Korean defectors, family, four adults, and young little, uh, toddler. And they were about to,
00:03:32.080 uh, enter the consulate, a consulate in China. So because they were told that if they crossed the
00:03:39.040 gate, they would be safe. And they made safely to China. And then they tried to cross the consulate
00:03:45.360 gate. And then they stopped by the Chinese soldiers. And there was a young girl who was
00:03:50.720 standing confused and then scared while watching her mom and grandma was wrestling with, uh, Chinese 0.98
00:03:56.800 soldiers. At the time I had, uh, I just had a baby and she was 10 months old. Whenever I came home,
00:04:04.160 uh, whenever I held my baby, it reminded me, it reminded me of that little toddler with pigtail.
00:04:11.280 Wow. And I told my husband, we better do something about these people. I heard about North Korean 1.00
00:04:16.720 defectors, uh, uh, dangerous journey, uh, to escape their country and, uh, their situation in North Korea.
00:04:24.720 Korea, but my life was busy as well. So I kind of, uh, moved on. And four years later, 2009, I had finally
00:04:34.240 had my own opportunity to tell their stories. And there were some reports about how numbers of North
00:04:41.760 Korean defectors growing still, and then their conditions, especially for female defectors,
00:04:47.600 are really gotten worse in China. And they were prey to the human trafficking. Like they were sold to,
00:04:56.320 uh, farmers, wives, you know, sex workers. And sometimes they were deceived when they cross and
00:05:02.400 they didn't, they don't even know what, uh, they are facing when they cross the border. Right. So my team
00:05:09.440 and I were, uh, we traveled to South Korea and China to shed light on their conditions. And it was a very
00:05:16.560 important story to us to tell the world because there are so many stories out there people don't
00:05:21.200 know about. We thought this is one of the stories that people need to pay attention to their condition,
00:05:26.480 human rights in China. So that was March 17 was our last day after it was filming in China. And next day,
00:05:36.240 it was a day that we were about to head to the U S. So in the morning, very early in the morning,
00:05:41.360 we wanted to have the last shooting, um, showing the border between China and North Korea. So we were at the
00:05:48.960 northeastern China where the Tumor river crossed between the countries. And that's, we're told that
00:05:55.280 that that's the route that a lot of North Koreans take to escape. And March 17 in that region is still
00:06:04.160 freezing and cold winter time. So river was still frozen. So we were walking the frozen river and
00:06:11.680 there was no sign of a border whatsoever. No wire bars or no sign. You didn't know that if it's the
00:06:18.080 border, if we did, we were not with the fixer. Our fixer was pretty, uh, connected with the area and
00:06:25.360 not aware of the situation. He worked for NHK, BBC on the same matter before us. So we completely trusted
00:06:34.080 him. And when we were on the frozen river, maybe few, about 30 minutes or so, um, filming the condition
00:06:44.640 that how freezing it was. And then where the, you know, this is a route that a lot of North Koreans 0.98
00:06:49.840 taking. And one of our producers shouted, soldiers. So I looked back and there were two small soldiers
00:07:00.080 with the uniform with rifles chasing us really fast. So we all ran towards Chinese soil as fast as we 0.99
00:07:08.960 could. One of our producers, male was an avid runner. So he disappeared fast. And, um, my fixer, our fixer
00:07:18.240 was running next to me. He was like, you know, are you filming this? And I thought this is crazy. But I
00:07:24.800 flipped my camera and put my underarms and then I was filming as I was running. Wow. So while you're
00:07:30.720 running, you're filming this entire event. We, you never know what kind of footage you're using. You
00:07:35.600 wanted to show the condition, right? This is the moment that this, uh, the fear that a lot of North
00:07:40.560 Koreans kind of face. And in my head, just don't, if you should, don't chew my head. I want to survive. 0.91
00:07:46.880 Right. And when I was almost close to Chinese soil, I saw Laura Ling, my colleague fell in front of me.
00:07:55.920 And I stopped and she said, I can, I can move my, I can feel my legs. And I, I didn't know what to
00:08:04.080 do, but I knew that I couldn't leave her there by herself. She doesn't speak the language. And then
00:08:09.680 we were a team and, um, our fixer was, and suddenly our fixer and me and Laura was surrounded by these
00:08:20.320 two soldiers. And we heard about this North Korean board, uh, border guards that how you can simply
00:08:28.800 bribe them, even defectors, they can pay them to cross the border. Or sometimes if you're a journalist,
00:08:36.560 you can give them some cigarettes to make a small talk. So our fixer was telling me that money,
00:08:42.560 money. So just give them bribe that money to escape that situation. So I pulled that over
00:08:47.440 whatever in my pocket and gave it to them and they did not want to take it. Wow. So I knew something
00:08:54.880 was going wrong. And when my fixer was not able to fix the situation, he ran as well. Maybe he wanted
00:09:03.120 to take one of soldiers, you know, to, to, from the situation. I don't know, but I wanted him to run
00:09:10.160 so that he can let someone, our situation. Sure. And now, you know, if you don't mind me asking,
00:09:16.720 how many total are you, even the producer, that's a very good runner. How many total people were you
00:09:21.920 yourself, Laura, the fixer, the producer, that's four. How many more were there?
00:09:27.200 That was it. Okay, got it. And he, I was wrestling with the one of soldiers grabbed Laura and the other 0.89
00:09:41.040 soldier grabbed me and I saw Laura was fainted. I didn't know that at the time she was hit. But she
00:09:48.560 was unconscious on the ice. And the other soldier was, because I was beckoning and I know I was trying
00:09:57.920 to yell and screaming to get help from Chinese soil, China, he raised this rifle to, to hit me,
00:10:05.200 the more taking the motion. And I looked at him. And he was a such a small, it was a small boy,
00:10:13.120 maybe 17 or so. And he was a hesitant to hit me at the time. So I told him, hey, let me walk with you.
00:10:22.160 So I got up. You're speaking in his language when you're saying this to him, you're speaking in
00:10:26.880 Korean. Yes, I spoke Korean to him. And we, I got up and I crossed the river with him. And
00:10:35.040 that's how we ended up being detained in North Korea. Now, if Laura couldn't walk, 0.99
00:10:41.440 did the other soldier carry her or how did Laura get there? So I screamed Laura's name so many times
00:10:48.960 and she finally, uh, woke up from conscious. So we walked to an army base. And, and did you later
00:10:56.880 on in life figure out why he didn't take the money from you? I mean, he didn't, he didn't try to take
00:11:01.840 advantage of you guys, the two, two, you know, being two women there, he didn't try, they didn't try to
00:11:05.840 do that. They didn't try to take money. Did they tell you why they didn't take money or you never found
00:11:10.320 that the answer to that question? We, we heard that the border security was very tightened at the
00:11:15.600 time, the, the conditions. And, um, honestly don't know why they didn't take money, but yeah.
00:11:23.680 Very interesting. So now you go there. So at this point, they don't seem like to you,
00:11:30.720 they don't seem like they're bad people. You see them as innocent,
00:11:33.680 young soldiers that are just trying to do their jobs.
00:11:37.040 These. Oh yeah. Yeah. They, these, uh, these were just the kids, uh, like about my high,
00:11:42.720 I'm only five, two, they were like my size and my highs. And then they were somehow they were nervous,
00:11:50.080 nervous as I, we were, I don't know why. And I had some like recorded tape in my, uh, back then we
00:11:58.160 used a tape, small tape. So tape in my pocket, I had a small flip on that, uh, used to contact people
00:12:05.520 in China in my pocket. So as they walked, uh, us to an army, the army base, uh, in my head, I have to
00:12:15.920 get rid of them. So I looked them and they, they were, I don't know, they were just nervous. They just
00:12:23.920 told us on top. So I dropped, uh, I was able to drop them one by one to get rid of them. So that's
00:12:30.560 how much they were nervous too. And when we arrived at the army base, it was, uh, it was like a movie
00:12:38.000 scene that I watched it from one of propaganda movie that I, when I grew up in South Korea, it was a yard.
00:12:46.800 They had a, a steady call that soldiers practice, uh, knife fighting and they had me stand there.
00:12:56.000 And Laura told me, you know, we're the enemies. And the, the flash of the image that, that I watched
00:13:06.480 from movie that, you know, the people are tight in the pole and then just being killed, just flash it.
00:13:13.040 But instead, uh, an officer tall guy walked out of a small building, um, office building, and he had a
00:13:23.120 coat in, uh, in his hand. He handed the coat to me. Uh, it's, I did not realize I wasn't wearing
00:13:30.240 coat at the time because I had some phone numbers in my coat pocket. So while I was wrestling with the
00:13:36.640 soldiers on the frozen river, I got out of the coat to leave that coat on the river. And
00:13:43.360 I, my teeth were channeling, but I was so nervous that I didn't even realize. And then he had
00:13:48.560 me in his coat. So I was like, to keep myself warm. So that's a nice gesture from him. That's
00:13:54.720 probably not expected to see something happen like that. Not at all, because yeah. At this point,
00:14:01.600 are you and Laura frightened? Are you, are you how, I mean, what is the state of your mind? Are you in shock?
00:14:08.480 Are you meaning we, I cannot believe we got ourselves in a situation like this. We're
00:14:13.200 about to go back to America. We got all the footage that we got. How do we find ourselves
00:14:17.200 in this situation? What are you thinking in that moment when you're with Laura?
00:14:21.200 We were so frightened, but we're so calm as well at the same time. And then, you know, I think I can't
00:14:28.400 speak for her, but I wanted to believe that there is a chance that we can go back. If we talk to them,
00:14:33.760 some, we can get out of this situation somehow. And we, we talked to each other like, let's read all
00:14:40.160 these slogans, what he says, and remember all these details. You know, you're still in the mode of
00:14:45.600 making documentaries so that we didn't know what was ahead of us, but we were just at the moment that
00:14:52.320 we're still going to finish these documentaries.
00:14:55.520 So, so while you're there, I'm trying to get, so is it just you and Laura and the two are not with
00:15:02.960 you? The fixer and the producers no longer with you?
00:15:05.440 At the time, I didn't know, but Laura had a lot of mic on her when she was captured. And then she
00:15:11.360 told our producers, keep running. So, so they were, don't, don't come back, keep running. And then our fixer
00:15:18.960 ran. And we both hoped that they would go somewhere to report our situation. Can you imagine, like,
00:15:26.160 if we were all captured, then no one would know where we would be.
00:15:31.280 So, so, so in a way, the other two not getting captured helped you get free eventually, because
00:15:37.040 of them being able to go away and tell them people that you guys were captured?
00:15:40.560 I believe so. I believe so. And we had to protect our sources as well, the people who we interviewed.
00:15:46.000 So for them to run would protect them as well in China, and also, you know, to help us situation.
00:15:55.920 Now, what did you do with the footage? Was the footage and the notes you took, was it with you?
00:16:00.400 How did you guys get rid of the footage and the notes that you had? Or was it with the producer
00:16:04.560 and the fixer? So some of the footage that we filmed in, in South Korea, I left with my family
00:16:11.200 before we came to China. And some of the footage that we filmed in China was, I heard that it's
00:16:20.800 confiscated by Chinese police. But luckily, when we met any defectors in China, we were very careful 0.76
00:16:30.000 filming there to, to hide their identity. So we did not film their faces.
00:16:35.200 I read somewhere where you guys, the way you got rid of some of your notes is you ate the paper. Did you
00:16:41.520 guys actually eat some of the notes? Or is that a pretty accurate statement I read?
00:16:46.480 Yeah, it is. It seems like a long ago, so faded image. But it was the first day that we were captured.
00:16:56.080 We were moved to another, from Army Base, we were moved to another place. We don't know where. And
00:17:03.840 they put us in a room. There was a short moment that we were just ourselves. So I, what I knew was,
00:17:14.240 I know that at some point, they're gonna find out what we did, but we need to have, keep it delayed as
00:17:20.080 long as we can. So we read the tapes that we had. We projected. Because these people took the camera
00:17:29.840 that we filmed on the eyes. They were figuring out what they were, how the camera works, and then,
00:17:37.520 you know, what they were in there. So we were with our projections in the room. So we read the tapes.
00:17:42.480 And then there were some memos that we read that, that can be, that has one of sources name.
00:17:50.880 So we ripped it. I gave a half to Laura and then half. We, I told Laura to eat it. And we ate.
00:17:57.760 You ate the tape. No, we ate the papers. The papers you ate it. Wow. Did they ever,
00:18:03.440 during that 140 days, find out that you were a documentary journalist or they never found out?
00:18:07.600 They, they did. They did not, uh, find it out for, uh, for a couple of days. We told them we were
00:18:16.480 a student, film student. And then we followed a professor to just film the border. We were
00:18:22.000 reporting about an economy situation at the border. And they didn't figure it out. They, they had a
00:18:28.160 very limited, uh, people who speak English, but they were able to figure things out. They, uh,
00:18:33.840 in that, uh, interrogated Laura and me separate. And then the sum of numbers did not match. And then
00:18:40.240 Laura and English, we were, um, they put us, uh, in cells next to each other. Laura was actually
00:18:47.840 asking, you know, should we tell them? And we, we, we just wait a little bit, wait a little bit. And
00:18:54.400 then until the moment that we had to tell them that we are from current TV.
00:18:58.480 The, the day, uh, uh, so, so while you're there, the 140 days, what, what, what experience did you
00:19:06.080 have? Was there any torture? Was there any psychological torture? Was there fear tactics?
00:19:10.960 What did you experience during those 140 days?
00:19:15.120 The, the one thing that really surprised me was these people, um, that I grew up in South Korea. So
00:19:22.320 North Korea was always enemy to us. Uh, we grew up with this, uh, very animated, uh, stories that how
00:19:28.880 North Korean soldiers are brutally killing people, innocent people during the court of during the
00:19:33.760 Korean war. And, um, hearing this story about young South Korean boy being brutally killed by North
00:19:41.040 Korean soldiers because he said he doesn't like communists. So they were very scary figure to me.
00:19:47.440 But whoever I met, not, not everybody was scary figure. They, some of them had very kind eyes.
00:19:56.080 And don't get me wrong. You know, when we were moved to the capital city, Pyongyang,
00:20:00.800 long interrogation, they had very skilled tactics to just break our, you know, psychologically break us
00:20:06.720 down. So it was a long psychological battle and then difficult time. But even during that time,
00:20:14.000 I would have to find some human kindness, humanity in those people.
00:20:20.000 What was it more, uh, uh, uh, because the way you describe it, it doesn't sound like it was that bad
00:20:26.480 of 140 days. It just sounds like you were in jail. So did you have terrible experiences or was it just
00:20:32.400 pleasant experiences you had there? Oh, it cannot be pleasant experience. That's, that's why I was asking
00:20:38.320 that because, you know, from, and the reason why I'm asking this question is because, you know, for the
00:20:43.360 viewer, we don't know North Korea, uh, because we've not been there, right? Obviously we had
00:20:49.040 the enemy park. She gave a whole different perspective. And then we hear what we hear in
00:20:52.800 the news and how, uh, close North Korea is with China and China has North Korea is back and not a
00:20:59.120 lot of countries trust, trust North Korea. And you hear human trafficking, you hear all these other
00:21:03.840 things, torture, all these things you hear about. And if you look at all the countries in the world,
00:21:07.760 the darkest country in the world with lights is North Korea. And for someone like you, that's there 1.00
00:21:13.600 visually, it's, it, it helps the world audience, especially since we have 190 different countries
00:21:19.920 plus that follow the content here, it helps for them to get a little bit more educated on what
00:21:24.480 happens in some of these prisons of North Korea for us to get educated. So if you could give us the
00:21:29.920 humane side of what it was, where the people are, the people is different than the government
00:21:34.800 and, and the torture side or the challenge, what are the polar opposite sides for us to get
00:21:40.880 better perspective? What would that be? I think because, because we were foreign journalists and
00:21:48.000 then there were very slight slings of chance that they would send us back home. I think they were
00:21:55.280 careful with us, what we can see, what we cannot see. So in, at the border, when we were in the cell,
00:22:02.400 it was just a regular cell that anybody just seen, like maybe it's a cell that North Korean defectors
00:22:07.840 like would go in there too. So it was a poor condition. They did not have, the bathroom condition was horrible
00:22:16.960 and just food was just poor. We received a small vegetable, like cabbage dish with a porridge that I
00:22:25.440 don't even know if it was rice or it was corn. That was a condition, true condition. But when we moved
00:22:32.240 to, when we moved to, when we moved to Pyongyang, it luckily I was putting in a place that it's like
00:22:39.680 I guess the house had a place with a bedroom and then right next to it was a guard room. But even,
00:22:48.240 it doesn't matter where you are putting in, you are what, you're a prisoner, watch 24-7 by guards.
00:22:55.520 And then they were recorded every conversation that happened with me or any of my activities.
00:23:01.280 And as you know, US does not have a diplomatic relations with North Korea. So I was not able
00:23:09.120 to visit it. I mean, no one was able to visit me for 140 days except the Swedish ambassador who visited us,
00:23:17.040 I think twice, I think twice. And it was about 10 minutes each time. So I dealt with the four words
00:23:26.560 every day. And you know how your life goes by so fast here, we're so busy with all this kind of
00:23:33.920 information. There, a day felt like a 10-year. And yes, they did not hit me physically. And I'm very,
00:23:46.800 I feel very lucky. But that's just me. I know so many testimonies out there
00:23:55.200 from North Korean defectors, how physically they were harmed, and abused. And whenever I received
00:24:03.200 a simple meal, the it was rice and soup and some fried fish and vegetables, very simple meal. But
00:24:12.160 even that, I was so thankful because I know so many North Koreans out, were not even getting those kind
00:24:19.280 of meals. Now the 140 days while you're there. Are you and Laura in the same room? Or no, you and Laura
00:24:27.680 are not seeing each other at all? No. After we knew we were next to each other when we were at the
00:24:35.360 border cell. When they moved us to Pyongyang in the middle of the journey, they separated us. And I, we
00:24:44.000 didn't know we were not going to see each other until we came home. You knew that already, that you're
00:24:50.160 not going to see each other until you come home. No, we didn't. No, we didn't. And did they use
00:24:54.720 manipulative tactics to pin you guys against each other? Oh, Laura said this. Oh, Yuna said this. Oh,
00:25:00.000 Laura said this. Oh, she already told us the truth. Oh, you know, were they using those stories to pin
00:25:04.960 you guys against each other or no? They did. They did a pretty good job on it. They were trying to get all
00:25:11.120 the information, including the sources that we met in China. But luckily, Laura does not speak
00:25:18.960 Korean. So she couldn't pronounce anybody's name correctly. And at the time, I knew just one guy's
00:25:25.920 name very clearly, but I would not really say his name because I knew that she couldn't, she doesn't,
00:25:31.520 she didn't know his name. And the rest of them, it was a, I was in so sharp mode that I couldn't even
00:25:39.760 remember the details, even though they repeated me to say this and that. And I just could not
00:25:44.560 remember the details. So they did not get much out of us. That, that is, uh, that is fascinating
00:25:52.400 that she did. Now, Laura Ling, was she born in the States? I know you were born in South Korea. Was
00:25:57.120 she born in the States? I believe so. Okay. Got it. And you were born in South Korea.
00:26:02.560 Hmm. And how old were you when you came to the States or you left South Korea?
00:26:07.040 Uh, 24. I pretty much grew up in South Korea. So, uh, yeah. And, and your reasoning for leaving
00:26:15.280 was to go to the art school, I believe, right? To come out here and go to art school. And I think
00:26:19.840 even eventually, well, recently after you got out in 2012, I think you got a degree from Columbia
00:26:25.680 University, I believe. Yeah. So, um, well, I started film because even when I was young,
00:26:33.680 I knew that film has a good, uh, powerful impact on people's lives. And I saw some of, uh, uh, people
00:26:40.960 who made the story about a massacre in South Korea in 1980s, in one city that was really, the people
00:26:48.960 were killed by, uh, armies, but the story didn't, uh, was not going out. So, uh, those films was going,
00:27:00.560 we, they, this group actually projected this film in colleges, uh, in, uh, late eighties. And then
00:27:08.160 they were chased by police officers because of the directions. So I knew how much impact that film can
00:27:13.920 make. And slowly that when I came here, after I came here, I got a job at a TV, uh, station and
00:27:23.360 I wanted to do something more, uh, rewarding. I didn't know what that was. And then the documentary
00:27:29.120 came to the opportunity came to, to me. It's still today, documentary production isn't, isn't,
00:27:37.680 there isn't many opportunities for documentary journalists. And that was, we were very lucky to
00:27:42.960 have that opportunity. And, um, yeah, uh, that's how I ended up working on documentaries after 2000
00:27:51.760 incident. I kept thinking that what did I do wrong? What did I do wrong? Well, how could I have made it
00:27:58.400 better? And that brought me to decide to go to, uh, the, you know, the best journalism school in the US.
00:28:06.560 So I studied journalism at Columbia. It's very impressive. I mean, it, it, it doesn't get better
00:28:11.280 than that. It's one of the best of the best out there. People who know the world, it's a
00:28:14.880 great school to go to now, you know, for somebody that lived in South Korea for two, I lived in Iran
00:28:19.600 for 10 years. And I remember going to school and all I heard a million times was mad, bad on recall,
00:28:24.080 mad, bad on recall, which is death upon America. And America was the worst country in the world.
00:28:30.320 They hated people. They hated Iran. They bullied everybody. It was all these bad things. I always read
00:28:35.360 read about Iran, right? Growing up in school in South Korea, a free nation. You're not necessarily 0.98
00:28:42.560 dealing with, you know, uh, all the other things that North Korea deals with. I think there was an
00:28:47.440 army base in Korea called Camp Casey. A lot of our soldiers used to go to Camp Casey, but when you
00:28:53.040 were growing up in South Korea in school, cartoons, education, history, how did South Korea's educational
00:29:00.240 system and media paint America? How did they paint Russia? How did they paint China? And how did they
00:29:06.640 paint North Korea? I'm curious. Oh, I, you know, actually, I don't really remember how they painted
00:29:14.880 about other countries like Iran and China back then, but North Korea was hardly mentioned on news
00:29:22.240 at the time of Negro. It was only the top propaganda like education taught in schools that how we have 0.94
00:29:30.720 to be careful about the North Korean supplies still out there. We need to report to police. We made the 1.00
00:29:36.720 poster about how we can protect our country from North Korea because they went through Korean wars and 0.99
00:29:43.040 they did not want us to go through another war. Um, North Korea and South are technically on their
00:29:51.040 army states, right? Since, uh, uh, Korean war ended in 1953. So it doesn't mean that we're still in
00:29:58.800 our peace. We're still, it's under army. So that's the education that we received. And about America,
00:30:07.040 I think they had the two different views about America. Some people really appreciate America's health
00:30:12.560 for Korean war. And some people blame America that the Korean division was because of American and
00:30:19.440 Russian support. That's how much I remember. That's how much you remember when you were there.
00:30:24.400 Got it. So, so why do you think you said the media didn't say anything about North Korea, but education
00:30:29.680 did? Is that what you were saying? That media wasn't talking bad things about North Korea,
00:30:34.640 but educational system was. It was just not, we did not really talk here about North Korea on media
00:30:40.640 like today's, but you hear about North Korea, all the details. There are so many defectors,
00:30:45.280 there's about 30,000 defectors living in South Korea. Now they really speak about human rights
00:30:50.800 violations in North Korea. And some people who speak English, English calling out international
00:30:57.760 attention on North Korean defector situation in China. So, so for you, when you went through the 140
00:31:04.640 days of being there, did any of your opinion about North Korea change? Oh, I'm sorry, Patrick, can you
00:31:11.360 repeat it again? Yes. When you went to North Korea and you were there for 140 days, I mean, in the military
00:31:17.200 jail, all these other places, and you know, your, you know, all these things that they're doing to you,
00:31:23.760 did your opinion about North Korea change? Meaning, did it get worse or did it get better or just different?
00:31:29.280 It's different. I saw, I kind of understood where they're coming from, and why they hate
00:31:40.320 South Korea so much, why they hate the U.S. so much. And that's something that similar experience
00:31:46.400 that I had growing up in South Korea, that they taught propaganda towards South Korea as well. So I
00:31:53.360 understood where they're coming from. At the same time, I felt very sad for the people in North Korea,
00:31:58.960 North Korea because they're getting limited, edited information. So the information they're receiving
00:32:05.520 from their government is partially true and then partially incorrect. And that's a, it was something
00:32:12.880 that unbelievable for me to see that these people are watching the news about an old lady, blind lady, 1.00
00:32:22.320 opened her eyes because after drinking some drink from their leader. And who would believe that story?
00:32:31.200 And these people are watching this kind of news stories and they believe it. They watch about how
00:32:37.200 horrible economic situation and a horrible human condition in South Korea and Western countries.
00:32:42.560 That's what they believe in. That's how much they know.
00:32:47.920 When you, when you were in South Korea and there was 30,000, you said 30,000 defectors today. I don't
00:32:51.920 know the exact number when you left because you lived there 24 years. That's a long time to live over
00:32:55.920 there, 24 years. Did you have any friends that were defectors? Did you have any, uh, classmates that
00:33:02.160 were defectors? Did you have any peers you were spending time with that were defectors?
00:33:05.600 Oh, you did not? Nobody? No, it wasn't a big, big number. The, you know, you have to have a broker
00:33:12.720 nowadays to escape North Korea. At that time, it wasn't a big, big deal. Even 2004, there weren't
00:33:19.360 many, 2009, there weren't many numbers who settled in South Korea. There were some studies that from
00:33:25.600 international organizations and news reports said that there were about 150 to 300,000
00:33:31.840 North Korean defectors living in China, but none of the number was, uh, just, uh, you can really say
00:33:38.000 which number is correct. But until 2019, there are about a little bit over 30,000 North Korean defectors
00:33:46.880 settled in South Korea. Did you have any friends and coworkers and classmates that escaped North Korea
00:33:52.160 to come live in South Korea that you befriended? No, it would be very rare situation. If, even if they,
00:33:59.040 uh, escaped North Korea in certain ways that they would be quiet. So, I had no friends who came from 0.79
00:34:07.200 North Korea. But, uh, after, after I came home, I made some friends, uh, defector, uh, North Korean defectors.
00:34:15.760 Did they change your mind at all about North Korea or did it make you, uh, see even the uglier side 0.99
00:34:23.680 that they're, you know, uh, maybe hiding from the populace? Because one of the things that you said,
00:34:29.200 which was very interesting is when you went to the prison, the 140 days that you were there,
00:34:34.400 they didn't really combine you with other prisoners because if they were by any chance going to free you,
00:34:38.560 they didn't want you to have that story to go back and tell the world. So, when you did get a
00:34:42.560 chance to spend some time with some of the defectors, did, did you sit there and say,
00:34:47.120 I cannot believe the atrocities that, uh, the government it's, you know, passing down to the
00:34:51.680 people that, did, did you experience that hearing the stories? No, actually, we never really talked
00:34:57.440 about North Korea when we sat together, but you know, how more, more like, you know, how we can help
00:35:02.720 these people, like, to, uh, the situation better. Not people in North Korea, but people in, uh, in
00:35:10.640 China. Uh, that's something that we, we talk about, but it's not about like North Korean government
00:35:16.720 because we already all know. Even though I did not have that experience, I read so many stories, uh,
00:35:21.680 uh, from North Korean defectors, what they faced when they are, when they, when Chinese government
00:35:27.920 forced them back, repatriation on them, they would face, they would go to labor camps,
00:35:36.400 re-educational camps, or political camps, some are executed. So we, we already know the story
00:35:41.600 that how horrible situation they would put it in if they are captured in China and send back to North
00:35:48.720 Korea. Oh, so a lot of the folks from North Korea that escaped to China didn't want to tell anybody
00:35:54.720 because if they were captured, the Chinese government would send them back to North Korea.
00:35:58.640 That is the problem because Chinese government, even though international law and experts and then 0.99
00:36:04.960 international organizations sees that North Korea defector situation as the, um, the refugee category
00:36:12.400 of the UN's convention in relation to their refugee status, China denies to give them refugee status,
00:36:19.440 asylum status. So, and they see them as a labor immigrant. So they would send back to North Korea where 0.96
00:36:28.000 they face persecutions. It's what I experienced myself as well. A lot of people that were escaping Iran
00:36:35.360 that came to the States. I even remember Ayatollah Khomeini telling the, uh, Carter that,
00:36:40.080 Hey, send back the shot to Iran. We'll take care of him. And they wouldn't want to do it because they were going to 1.00
00:36:44.960 experience persecution. A lot of the people that were Baha'i religion, they were being found and a
00:36:50.160 lot of bad things happened to them. There was a, even a comedian in Germany that was found at his
00:36:54.640 hotel room, I believe that, uh, that's his last name, but the story is a pretty ugly story what they
00:37:00.640 did to them. So I wouldn't be surprised, but if you don't mind continuing the whole 140 days,
00:37:05.920 you know, some other experiencing leading to the end of it. Is there any other thing that's visual that
00:37:11.680 sticks to you till today that, uh, you're comfortable sharing with the rest of us?
00:37:16.400 Something that actually, um, I remember is because of the North Korean that it's portrayed on media,
00:37:23.760 maybe not nowadays anymore, but back then they were like, people like we, we've seen people like
00:37:31.360 crying, group of people crying for, uh, at the, uh, for their leader staff. And then we just, uh,
00:37:38.720 don't understand that how someone, somebody can, the person can be so loyal to this leader
00:37:43.760 or this country. And they were, we thought they were very robotic people, but in some way that the
00:37:50.640 people were like people, human. And I saw, whenever I saw people like making small chats or a smiling,
00:37:59.760 have a smile on their faces. That was something that like jarring moments to me.
00:38:06.080 Uh, I don't think I understood. What, what, what do you mean by that? The smiling faces?
00:38:12.720 It's a, I would not think that they would smile naturally. You know, if they would smile when
00:38:18.160 they're told to smile, they would cry when they're told to smile. I didn't think they have a, uh,
00:38:23.360 free, free to express themselves, but there were moments that I saw that they had a free
00:38:28.960 expressions that that was, that told me that they were human like us. That's when I stopped to
00:38:34.800 humanitize, humanitize them. Is that the moment where you spent some time with the two guards,
00:38:40.400 the guard A and guard B, the two ladies? That's some moments that I, I spent time
00:38:47.440 and some of the moments that I spent, uh, with my interrogators and some of the scenes that I watched
00:38:53.280 on TV. And I had a very small limited access to interact with people. Uh, but even that, that's,
00:39:01.600 that's a sense that I received in guards. A often asked me like, how do you pronounce this?
00:39:08.240 She studied in English. And that's another thing that I was surprised because, uh, um, back when I was
00:39:14.960 young then I, I was told that North Korea does not teach people English because the U.S. is their enemy,
00:39:22.960 right? So they were running Russian as a second language. But, um, what I saw was people were very
00:39:29.680 interested in learning English because it's an international language. They wanted to be part of
00:39:34.240 the international. Um, so they were learning English and this guard was, uh, learning English. They were singing.
00:39:42.960 I don't know if they were trained or planned to sing. They were singing a song. Some Indians, 0.99
00:39:47.680 my heart will go on. And those are the moments that like, wow, you know, did I think that the
00:39:53.280 North Koreans were, uh, did I have to illustrate a type of North Korean? Did I equate North Korean people
00:40:01.600 with, uh, this government, North Korean government too much?
00:40:06.720 Did I equate the North Korean people with the North Korean government? Are you trying to say
00:40:12.240 that maybe the North Korean government was vicious and, uh, uh, you know,
00:40:19.840 no lack of accountability or concern for human rights while the human, the people of North Korea
00:40:26.480 were regular people like you and I, is that kind of what you're saying? You found a way to differentiate
00:40:30.640 between the two? Yes, uh, you're correct. You're correct. Even though we see North Korea as a regime 0.86
00:40:36.960 and then the, the brutal country that has no human rights, you know, has human rights violation all 0.66
00:40:42.720 the time in the country, but the people are people. The policy is towards North Korea. We,
00:40:48.320 we can't forget about that. There are people living in that country.
00:40:51.360 Do you, do you think sometimes the way the media pins North Korea makes us look at all North Koreans
00:40:59.840 that way? Is that what you think happens sometimes?
00:41:02.000 And Nisa, Nisa, I grew up like that, you know, watching and reading about North Korea that it was, 0.88
00:41:08.080 it was hard to separate the people of North Korea with the government.
00:41:11.600 So, so at what point did you, when, when, when you were going through this 140 days,
00:41:17.600 at what point did you hear that you're going to get sentenced for 12 years? When,
00:41:21.280 when was that moment when you got word, you're going to get 12 years of labor? How did that happen?
00:41:26.160 So after about three months of interrogations, uh, we were, uh, asked that there will be a trier. 0.99
00:41:35.520 And, uh, the North Korean government after you offered me a lawyer that if I want to use their lawyer,
00:41:43.280 and I refused to use a lawyer. And, um, uh, it was about three days trial. And at the end of the trial,
00:41:51.920 it was June 3rd. I believe that they sentenced me, uh, for 12 years in labor camp.
00:41:58.960 12 years in labor camp. And when, when that news was given to you, what was your reaction? And were
00:42:07.200 you and Laura together when you were told 12 years? We were in the court together. It doesn't
00:42:13.200 mean that we're talking to each other, but yes. And that was the first time that I really, uh, crashed
00:42:19.840 it. And I held a pretty strong point to that moment. And when I heard 12 years, um, I, I didn't think
00:42:28.720 that I would have, I could survive for 12 years. I was already physically so weak. And then, um,
00:42:34.560 just thinking about not seeing my daughter at the time, she was four, for 12 years. And I just
00:42:42.480 couldn't, I just couldn't handle it. So I crashed it on the ground and then cried. I didn't care who
00:42:48.320 was watching me, but I cried really loud.
00:42:51.360 You know, it seems like you didn't want to show any weakness to these folks for 140 days. Why is that?
00:43:00.960 I, I thought if, uh, I think that's the part of, that's, uh, probably same as I giving up, uh,
00:43:09.200 if I become weak, I thought that I'm giving up hope, assumes of hope. So I had to be strong and
00:43:17.120 then hopeful. Then there's a, every day I felt like it's a one day closer to go home. That was,
00:43:24.320 uh, that, that's how I stayed strong until they told me 12 years.
00:43:31.440 So when they told you 12 years, did you at that point have the ability to make any phone calls or
00:43:36.240 no, that was it. You're going back to work and, you know, do what you do, or how quickly did you get
00:43:42.880 some good news, uh, regarding the 12 years? It was June 3rd and June 4th that I heard it was 12 years.
00:43:51.520 And then, um, they were, I heard that they were discussing, um, that where labor camp that they're
00:43:59.200 going to send. I think they were in discussion because, uh, the interrogator, uh, he, the interrogator
00:44:07.920 who told me that, uh, that you might be together with Laura or one day came, you know, story is
00:44:15.120 different. And, but, um, we came on, on August, uh, 4th. So two months for two months, they were still
00:44:23.520 discussing the weather, what, whether, whether they're going to actually send us to the labor camp,
00:44:27.920 but I don't know, but we were, I was just praying that when I get out of this place, I'll go home,
00:44:34.640 not a labor camp because the labor camp, uh, um, the stories is just, uh, under human conditions.
00:44:45.840 And, uh, I already learned about from defector stories. So I couldn't see myself surviving in a
00:44:52.720 labor camp. What, what did you hear that happened at the labor camps?
00:44:55.840 There's hardly, there are hardly any food. And then you do the hard labors for all day. And some
00:45:03.840 people, because of the lack of food that you receive, some people are even just to catch mouths
00:45:09.600 and like they, they try to survive themselves in mouths and things like that. So, um, and they,
00:45:16.560 they say that they see people dying, uh, in their cells. And some people don't even care because
00:45:22.720 they're so hungry and starting. And when they receive food, your person next to you just died.
00:45:29.680 And then you to get that food to eat because you're hungry. That's a, that's the kind of stories.
00:45:36.400 And that I heard over and over, uh,
00:45:39.440 How did the news get delivered to you that you're going to be free and being able to come back home?
00:45:45.360 So I was lucky to receive some matters from home. Of course, there's no news about me coming home,
00:45:54.000 but I, I learned that how a lot of people were working on our cases that, you know, raising voices.
00:46:01.040 You can see in the back here, back banner that I, um, kept it from 2009. It was from one of the
00:46:08.560 details that people wrote messages to us that stay strong. So that was a message that I received from home.
00:46:16.000 And North Korean, uh, government did not even tell us until we come home that we're going to go home.
00:46:22.560 They, the day before we came home, they told us that you have a visitor
00:46:27.280 from the U S and very high official visitor. And then I asked, uh, the guy who delivered the message,
00:46:36.160 I asked him, is there a way to, is this moving forward? Or is this a way it tends to go backward?
00:46:42.000 And he said, Oh, I think it's moving forward. So I knew that was, there was something that
00:46:46.720 good things going on. And, uh, they took, that was the first day, uh, that, um, except, uh, except
00:46:54.960 at the corridor, except that was the first that I met with Laura and that we were able to talk.
00:47:00.880 And then they sent us a hotel. It was a Korean hotel. And then they had us wait in the room for
00:47:06.640 over an hour. And I, uh, talked to Laura and who do you think it's who visited us?
00:47:12.080 And I told her if it's, she goes, maybe Jimmy Carter, or is this, you know, with Bill Anderson,
00:47:17.680 we told, we talked about all the names that we, we knew who's associated with the North Korea.
00:47:22.800 We, Bill Clinton wasn't, President Bill Clinton wasn't even on the list. And, and I told Laura,
00:47:28.880 I don't think I would recognize Jimmy Carter if he, President Jimmy Carter is there.
00:47:32.640 And he's all the image that I remember is an old picture. And, and they finally told us that
00:47:39.280 you're going to go to that room. And when we walked to the room, there were some people with, uh, not
00:47:45.200 Korean people with the earpiece and then standing around. So we knew that, okay, somebody was very 1.00
00:47:51.040 important to see here. And there were two double doors and they opened the double door. There was a
00:47:57.680 President Bill Clinton standing with, uh, his gray hair, had a big light, the window that had light
00:48:05.600 backdrop on him. And, uh, and he looked like an angel to me. So he opened his arms and we ran towards him.
00:48:12.160 And, um, and, um, he gave us a hug and he asked us if, well, we're doing okay, physically doing okay. Um,
00:48:21.280 he told us that, nah, um, um, I can't promise you anything at this moment, but are we, if we go, will you be able to,
00:48:30.640 uh, be on the plane physically? And we, we told him like, of course, I'm not going to say no. Yeah, yes, yes.
00:48:37.840 And we saw him meeting, uh, North Korean leader at the time, Kim Jong-il, uh, and, uh, on the news.
00:48:48.480 And so Kim Jong-il kind of had a smile on his face on the news pictures. So we thought like, oh,
00:48:55.520 something's going on. Something's getting better, getting better. And, uh, Laura was excited and I
00:49:01.120 was excited at the same time too. We're still in the same room. And I, I told her, let's not open the
00:49:06.560 champagne butter yet. I, so I kept praying and kept praying until about four in the morning,
00:49:12.640 they told us pack our stuff. And then we went, we were pardoned and we went to the airport,
00:49:20.640 get on the plane. At what point did you fully feel free? Like, did you feel free at that moment when
00:49:26.560 you were pardoned or when the plane took off? And when you were on the plane, were you on the plane
00:49:31.200 with, uh, President Clinton or you were on a separate plane? No, we were on the, uh, playing
00:49:36.400 with the President Clinton and his team. And he had, uh, uh, uh, he, he asked us if we want to make
00:49:44.400 phone call to home, uh, to family. So we're still on the, uh, uh, North Korean soil and we, I made
00:49:51.520 the phone call to my husband and I told him again, I'm the plane with President Clinton. He goes, don't,
00:49:56.960 no, no, don't call me back when you're in the air. So he did not want to open the champagne yet
00:50:03.920 until the plane takes off. So I called him back after the plane takes off. And then I finally felt
00:50:10.560 everything felt so surreal. You know, you're a prisoner in North Korea for 140 days. And next day
00:50:16.000 you are in a private jet with the President Clinton and everything felt so surreal.
00:50:21.040 When you land and you're getting off the plane and you see, uh, the picture of your daughter
00:50:27.920 hugging you in that moment, what are you, what are you thinking? Are you, do you still remember
00:50:32.080 it till today? Can you go to that emotion till today to know what it felt like to hold your daughter
00:50:36.800 again? Yeah, of course. That was, uh, the moment that makes me really emotional, but the happiest moment
00:50:44.960 at the same time, um, I, when I, um, walked to her, I thought that she would recognize me right away.
00:50:59.680 I didn't know how much the performance would do to this four-year-old girl. And she looked
00:51:05.920 very confused. So I opened my arms and Hannah, can you give me a hug? It's mommy. And she gave me a hug.
00:51:13.680 And then that's a, that's the moment that I felt like I wanted this moment so badly. I wanted to hold
00:51:19.680 my baby so badly. And yeah. I mean, when you watch it, you know, your daughter, you know, that was,
00:51:28.720 she's 15 now, your daughter at four, she was hanging on to you like glue. You couldn't separate her from
00:51:35.920 you the way she was hugging you. It's very emotional as a parent watching that moment, uh, what it felt like
00:51:42.240 for you, uh, and your husband being there. And it's just a, it's a fascinating story to see
00:51:48.560 you guys decide to your story of you wanting to get into film because you want to make impact and
00:51:54.880 you choose documentary, which at a point where it's not really a lot of jobs to do, it's tough to make
00:51:59.600 money in documentary to hire people. And you had the privilege of doing that. And you take a project like
00:52:04.480 this and right before coming to the States, you guys get captured. Uh, uh, it's a powerful story.
00:52:09.920 You know, uh, as you, as you look back now, that was 2009 to tune that to now a lot's changed. You
00:52:19.520 know, it's a different world we're living in today than 2009. And when things like this happen to you,
00:52:24.880 you know, sometimes it makes us want to research a topic a little bit more because we're so close to
00:52:29.280 it. When a kid grows in a foster home and he ages, he kind of wants to find a way to give back to
00:52:34.800 foster kids. When somebody is raised in a domestic violence environment and the son sees daddy abusing
00:52:41.840 mom, that son wants to do something for domestic violence. You know, when somebody experienced human 0.68
00:52:46.240 rights, they want to give back for human rights. Where you're at right now and what you experience,
00:52:51.280 what is your opinion now about Kim Jong-un and North Korea? You mean the current leader of Kim Jong-un?
00:53:00.320 The current leader. Yes. Forgive my pronunciation. So I may have pronounced it wrong, but yes,
00:53:05.520 the current leader. Well, what am I, what's my opinion about Kim Jong-un?
00:53:11.120 Um, there are news about him that how he's, uh, he, to be honest with you, um,
00:53:23.120 it's not because of, uh, I had the experience with, uh, um, because of my experience in North Korea.
00:53:30.320 It doesn't mean that I follow the North Korean news every day. It's more like, I do feel responsible for 0.89
00:53:36.640 people in North Korea and people who we met for the interview for the documentaries because,
00:53:44.480 because, uh, we never had a documentary released as we, uh, promised. Although our case that told
00:53:54.400 the bigger story about North Korean defector situation, but that there are some parts for me to
00:53:59.840 feel, um, guilty that I did not meet the, meet their promise. And, but, uh, for the countries,
00:54:11.520 it doesn't mean that I was following the news on the North Korean leaders and North Korean, the country,
00:54:15.920 uh, the, the current situation. I don't think their situation is better,
00:54:22.560 better than 10 years ago. Even though North Korea has a different tactics right now,
00:54:27.040 they have YouTube channels to connect with the viewers. They know that how their country has
00:54:32.000 been seen in a dark, uh, the way that it's human rights violations and the dark, you know,
00:54:38.000 economic conditions and people are starting. So they don't want to show those kinds of words. So
00:54:42.800 what they're doing is now they are, they want to refresh their image. So they have a YouTube channel
00:54:47.600 showing that how wonderful Pyongyang is, all those things, but that's Pyongyang. We all know that Pyongyang is a, 0.97
00:54:53.680 if you are a citizen living in Pyongyang, you're a special citizen. But what about the, what about
00:54:58.960 the rest of the countries that people live in? And, um, I heard about the sanctions making their
00:55:05.120 economy conditions more difficult and people are starting to having difficult times. So I, on and off,
00:55:12.800 I think about them and then, you know, my job is continue to produce stories that, that, that true
00:55:21.280 information, deliver true information for the people who are in the place and countries like North Korea,
00:55:28.240 otherwise they can't get the truth. And part of the reason that I work for Voice of America is because,
00:55:35.600 uh, the Korean, uh, service was starting to TV team in 2017. Um, they, they, they produced news for
00:55:46.720 people in North Korea. And, uh, that's a part of the reason that I, uh, decided to work for Voice of
00:55:52.000 America. And now I don't, I no longer will build the Korean, the Korean service, but the, it's a broader
00:55:58.480 aspect that, uh, will continue to strategize, uh, videos, efforts for Voice of America. So we continue
00:56:06.560 to provide this information for not only people in North Korea, but people in countries like Iran,
00:56:12.720 China and Russia, other, otherwise they wouldn't get the truth.
00:56:17.600 You know, uh, you know, uh, forgive me if, if I'm wrong here. Uh, uh, and I'm, if I'm wrong,
00:56:23.440 just say, Pat, you're absolutely wrong. I get a feeling you, you hold back a little bit, uh, going
00:56:29.840 against North Korea, uh, where you're either, uh, uh, being extra careful, uh, or you're, um, you're almost
00:56:40.720 not wanting to kind of, uh, uh, say anything bad, uh, against, uh, uh, regime of North Korea.
00:56:47.600 Am I wrong? Or is there a little bit of hesitation on your end?
00:56:51.600 No, you, it's not, no, I don't, I don't have a hesitation, but what I'm careful is I don't,
00:56:58.880 I don't want, because of what we, Korea news out there, I don't want people to forget about people
00:57:05.600 living in North Korea. You know, of course we have to throw the sanction. Of course we have to, uh, 1.00
00:57:11.280 stop the regime to, to test missile, all these things. But, you know, like Iran,
00:57:17.760 when there was sanction on Iran, what I heard from Iranian people, friends, what they're saying is that
00:57:23.120 the people suffer. The who suffer is not government, it's the people. So that's what I'm careful about.
00:57:30.240 When I say something towards North Korea, I don't want people to forget about, you know, 1.00
00:57:35.120 when you focus on the government, how horrible this government is, but there are people living
00:57:40.320 in that horrible country. Uh, uh, so, so you're referencing the fact that sanctions are what made
00:57:49.520 the conditions bad in North Korea and Iran, not necessarily the government is, is that kind of
00:57:54.800 what you're insinuating or no? No, that's, uh, one, of course, um, I'm just example in sanctions
00:58:04.080 because the sanctions, you are from Iran and sanctions on Iran and North Korea are similar
00:58:10.080 situations. But what we need to be, that's the politics, that's politics, the government, the
00:58:18.560 government, but the, for the human level that we have to think about people.
00:58:26.320 Yeah, no, I, I fully agree. But, uh, you know, what do you do with a government? That's not,
00:58:31.200 that doesn't prioritize human rights, that doesn't value human rights, that doesn't, uh, look at people
00:58:37.920 as any kind of value. Do you just let them do everything you can in your power, or do you impose
00:58:44.000 sanctions for them to know that you can't go abusing people like this your entire life? We
00:58:49.840 have to find a way to have some kind of a revolutionary regime change, because if it continues, people's
00:58:55.120 lives are going to be continuously taken. So what do you do about it? Do you just sit on the sidelines
00:58:58.960 and watch it happen? Or do you find ways? I don't have an answer for it, Patrick. And then you know that
00:59:06.720 I'm not saying that we just let them abuse people, right? The government abuse people.
00:59:11.120 Yeah. And, um, while governments, you know, doing their part, I think that our people, as journalists,
00:59:19.440 we have our job to do it as well. We will continue to report, you know, about human rights violation in
00:59:26.320 the countries. We don't stop reporting about the conditions. But what I am, you mentioned that I'm
00:59:33.840 being careful about talking about North Korean government. It's not because I agree with what
00:59:41.600 they're doing. It's because I'm careful because I don't want people to have the same experience
00:59:50.960 with what I had. I, I, I dehumanitize them. When I grew up in South Korea, heard about so many 0.99
00:59:59.120 news about North Korean government, that there was no people in my mind.
01:00:06.080 Maybe I don't understand what you mean by that. So are you, are you saying that even the powerful
01:00:11.120 people in the government that are seen evil, even deep down inside, they're good people where they,
01:00:17.760 there are people like you and I, is, is that what you're saying?
01:00:21.280 Just average people. That's what I'm saying. Because we, the powerful people that we are so
01:00:26.000 focusing on, we are, we forget about the people, average people.
01:00:30.000 You know, the question then becomes, what do you do for these guys? You know, how do you,
01:00:32.960 how do you help them? You know? I mean, the media has to do their best to do what they do,
01:00:37.920 but then what do governments do? I lived in Iran and you know, I, I wish the Iranian revolution
01:00:44.160 would have never happened because I would still be living in Iran. Uh, I wish there was, uh, uh, 1.00
01:00:49.680 cause the moment the revolution in Iran happened, conditions in Iran got worse. A half a million
01:00:53.840 people died in war. That shouldn't have happened. We didn't need to have a war like that. But, uh,
01:00:58.320 unfortunately things change in Iran when Carter came and visited and he left right after he left,
01:01:02.960 the revolution started in Iran and it costs a lot of people's lives. And, uh,
01:01:07.120 uh, you know, these kinds of memories, they stay, you know, because you experience it firsthand.
01:01:11.600 So you, so you, so you think about it and you remember it from that perspective. So do you think
01:01:17.360 just last question on this topic here, do you think the approach being taken from other countries
01:01:22.560 around the world towards countries like North Korea, China, and Iran is the right way to go about 1.00
01:01:29.200 this with sanctions or do you think there's better ways to go about it?
01:01:34.320 Um, um, it's a, you can never find the right, like the perfect answer for it. Governments make that
01:01:44.720 decision because they believe in that it is, uh, the right decision. Right. And, um, I think a story
01:01:53.200 will tell when at the end, uh, later, later that if, uh, it was working or not.
01:02:01.440 So I do something at the end called speed round and I'll give you a name for one word that comes
01:02:06.160 to mind. So what are your thoughts when you think about Bill Clinton?
01:02:09.840 My rescuer, your rescuer, I bet. Of course. Uh, what do you think about when you think about,
01:02:15.440 uh, uh, Barack Obama? What did I think of Barack Obama? One word. He has a heart for, uh, average
01:02:25.840 person like me. Okay. Very cool. What do you think about, uh, Trump? Trump? Trump. He communicates
01:02:35.840 on social media. Okay, good. That's a safe answer. How about Kim Jong-un? Kim Jong-un, he's, uh, a young
01:02:45.360 mind leader that once made change of North Korea, but did not make change much. Okay. And then Biden.
01:02:55.040 Biden? Oh, who was running against Trump. Who was running against Trump. You know,
01:03:01.040 you should consider politics because you're very political with your answers. I think you could,
01:03:05.840 you could have a career in politics, but look, more than anything else, uh, uh, uh, I, um,
01:03:12.400 I'll give you the final thoughts, you know, with, with everybody watching everything and seeing
01:03:17.360 what's going on with the current conditions in the world today. What are your final thoughts thinking
01:03:22.240 what the future is going to be for folks who are, uh, living in North Korea and how we can, uh,
01:03:29.360 what we can do, you know, positive thoughts, positive for, you know, outlook on what could potentially
01:03:34.400 happen in the future with the folks in North Korea? Um, you know, like I recently worked on a history, uh,
01:03:40.400 history, uh, pilot that was about Berlin Wong, that how it collapsed because of the collective
01:03:49.440 will of young people. I know it's, uh, so hard for North Korean to have a collective voices because
01:03:57.200 they're watching each other. But one day I hope that they will be able to have a collective voice.
01:04:03.760 They will be able to have a will to have, to find their freedom.
01:04:12.080 I love that. And I hope they get a chance to see this, to have your point of view. I know it's been 11
01:04:17.120 years since the event, but, uh, every once in a while, it's good to be reminded of history and
01:04:21.760 things that have been taking place. And I appreciate you being willing to relive that
01:04:26.320 moment for the last hour and give us a different perspective of what it was like to be a political
01:04:31.840 person, not even a political person, but be a prisoner for 140 days and eventually be free. So,
01:04:36.640 uh, you know, Lee, again, thank you for your time. We're going to put the link below to your book
01:04:41.360 for anybody that wants your book. You can go to the link below and be able to order her book.
01:04:45.920 The stories are even deeper in her book. I know it's been 11 years, but she gives a complete
01:04:49.440 different optic on what she experienced. And with that being said, you know, Lee, again,
01:04:53.600 thank you for making it time for being a guest on by entertainment.
01:04:56.800 Thank you so much, Patrick.
01:04:57.920 So different than, uh, you know, me parks interview that I did a few weeks ago where she was a defector
01:05:03.280 escape in North Korea at 13 years old. She goes to China and she becomes a slave. She gets sold
01:05:10.240 for two, $300 and finally goes to South Korea, eventually finds her way here.
01:05:14.320 But here's a story of somebody that was in South Korea for 24 years, comes to the States,
01:05:18.400 decides to do a documentary with her friend, Laura, and they go up there. They're about to
01:05:23.040 finish it up. They get arrested 140 days and they're supposed to do 12 years of labor, hard labor.
01:05:30.160 And they eventually are set free and she meets President Clinton and she comes back to the States.
01:05:35.440 When you heard this perspective of her story, I'm curious to know what your biggest takeaway was.
01:05:41.200 I actually am to know from you what your biggest takeaway was. From her point of view,
01:05:45.600 as somebody shooting a documentary, did it change anything on your thoughts about human rights,
01:05:50.800 about North Korea, about South Korea, about China? Anything of what she said? If yes, comment below.
01:05:55.680 And if you have not yet seen the interview with Yanomi Park where she gave a speech nine years ago,
01:06:01.920 eight years ago, in two days she got 50 million views when she gave that speech at a young age.
01:06:07.520 And then we had a chance to do a follow-up interview with her. If you've not seen that yet,
01:06:11.040 it's very powerful. Click over here to watch that interview. And if you've not subscribed to the
01:06:15.360 channel, please do so. Thanks for watching everybody. Take care. Bye-bye.