Valuetainment - Inside the Multi-Billion Dollar Sports Industry

00:00:00.000 Pat Riley was the last one in Miami to assemble the big three down there with a true recruiting focus.

00:00:07.340 He went in and sold him and pitched him, but he had to get Wade to recommit.

00:00:11.280 And then he got LeBron and Bosh to join.

00:00:14.020 But now it's much more player-to-player driven.

00:00:17.220 LeBron bringing Anthony Davis, that was the key to transitioning the Lakers from worst to first.

00:00:23.240 We think LeBron's getting paid what he's worth.

00:00:25.280 The short answer is for sure LeBron is underpaid.

00:00:28.300 I would agree.

00:00:28.860 I personally hate the fact that you can celebrate a long-term extension.

00:00:34.100 You feel like you got him locked up.

00:00:35.820 You make this incredible financial commitment.

00:00:39.260 And then he can James Harden his way out of here in a year or two.

00:00:43.340 And it's a disturbing trend in the NBA for sure.

00:00:46.980 Could Jordan do what LeBron is doing today to the league back in their era?

00:00:51.480 LeBron could disrupt things and impact business for a little bit, but the league will go on.

00:00:56.960 LeBron has been different because wherever he's gone, it has followed.

00:01:01.740 You know, Jordan was in one place and it all came to him.

00:01:03.980 So my guest today is a former lawyer, former executive, former president of the LAFC, and former general manager.

00:01:15.260 And my favorite guy to watch on ESPN when he would analyze who should go to what team with the salary cap.

00:01:24.320 And I would be glued him doing all the stuff that he would do.

00:01:27.440 And now we've established a relationship together.

00:01:29.240 And I just wanted to have him on Valuetainment as a guest.

00:01:32.220 So Tom, thank you so much for being a guest on Valuetainment.

00:01:34.420 My pleasure. Good to see you. Man, you look good.

00:01:37.640 Good to see you. I told you I'm trying to look like a GM.

00:01:40.340 Today I look like a GM and you look like the agent of one of the players.

00:01:46.700 Well, you know, hey, I'll take whatever I can get.

00:01:49.960 So question for you.

00:01:51.320 How do you go from a criminal defense attorney handling cases, including murder, armed robbery, and other serious felonies to wanting to become a GM?

00:02:01.340 How does an attorney go to wanting to become a GM and an executive?

00:02:06.140 That's when you start wanting to become a GM and you go do what you can do first.

00:02:10.820 That's what happened there, right?

00:02:12.220 That makes sense.

00:02:13.240 Yeah, I was in law school and knew I didn't want to go work for a big law firm.

00:02:16.740 I did that in the summers.

00:02:18.380 And so I wanted to do something sports related.

00:02:21.260 And I just struck out, man.

00:02:23.060 I tried everything.

00:02:24.200 I went to the NBA primarily.

00:02:25.780 That was my interest and still have the box of rejection letters upstairs in my attic space.

00:02:33.560 And, you know, it was back when you sent a real letter and got a real letter in return.

00:02:37.640 And then I went to work as a criminal defense lawyer.

00:02:40.400 I went to work with my dad.

00:02:41.840 He was a really accomplished criminal defense attorney.

00:02:45.200 And I took a position as a part-time public defender.

00:02:48.600 And that gave me a caseload of like four cases every week.

00:02:52.460 Wow.

00:02:52.680 Four cases set for trial.

00:02:54.520 You just sort of rolled through it.

00:02:56.320 And I ended up 20 plus jury trials.

00:02:59.100 And yeah, stuff is interesting as first degree murder and, you know, got not guilty in that,

00:03:05.540 which was a crazy experience.

00:03:06.940 And really everything in between.

00:03:10.680 And then segued into being an agent.

00:03:13.780 And then eventually got lucky and found my way into the NBA.

00:03:16.840 Now, is your dad's temperament like yours?

00:03:18.980 Are you guys, are you similar in temperament or no?

00:03:21.940 Yeah, we were very similar.

00:03:23.700 He was a terrific orator in his day.

00:03:26.920 And just a total stud as a criminal defense attorney.

00:03:31.760 He really had a presence and was quite a name.

00:03:35.080 And that was interesting for me because I came in with the exact same name.

00:03:39.940 He's Thomas J. Penn Jr.

00:03:42.680 And I'm Thomas Penn III, right?

00:03:44.980 So I came in not only in his shadow or adjacent to him.

00:03:50.000 I had the exact same name.

00:03:51.500 So they kind of called me the third around there, which was odd because, you know,

00:03:56.060 I never have been known as that.

00:03:57.840 But it was the best years, man.

00:04:00.040 And I went to do it for two years.

00:04:01.780 And Patrick, I did it for six.

00:04:03.440 I worked side by side with my dad.

00:04:06.380 You know, we tried cases together.

00:04:09.020 He gave me the flexibility to build my sports start by pursuing becoming an agent and, you

00:04:17.000 know, just being entrepreneurial in spirit, but having the safety net of a good career

00:04:22.640 in my core business there.

00:04:24.780 And it was a lot of fun, man.

00:04:27.280 It was really cool.

00:04:28.320 Let me ask you, what helped you out in transitioning from being a criminal defense attorney?

00:04:33.700 Six years.

00:04:34.620 That's not a short period.

00:04:35.640 That's a long time.

00:04:37.280 What helped you out from there to being an agent, to being a GM or assistant GM working

00:04:42.720 with Jerry West or president of LAFC?

00:04:45.600 What strength did this give you to, you know, go into these other jobs that you had?

00:04:49.660 Well, I went to law school just to have the core education, not knowing what it would lead

00:04:55.700 to.

00:04:56.040 It was either MBA or law school.

00:04:57.700 My only regret maybe was not doing an MBA while I was there.

00:05:01.780 But I felt like having the law degree gave a basis for whatever happened.

00:05:06.600 And I was more drawn to business.

00:05:08.200 But first, starting in criminal defense, you know, that is like, there's nothing like being

00:05:14.940 on trial and representing somebody sitting right next to you with his or her life on the

00:05:20.100 line.

00:05:20.980 And you're having to perform in front of a jury live.

00:05:25.720 It's kind of like coaching a game, right?

00:05:28.660 You know, there's a timetable.

00:05:30.500 There's decisions you have to make.

00:05:32.480 You have to express yourself clearly.

00:05:34.760 And you have to persuade.

00:05:36.300 So all those sorts of skills were being honed at that part of my career.

00:05:42.640 And you've got to work your tail off and be prepared, you know?

00:05:45.420 So you're prepared.

00:05:46.880 You're timely.

00:05:48.180 You've got to make these decisions on trial and then be persuasive.

00:05:51.660 So all that kind of wraps together to take you to the next level or take me to the next

00:05:57.700 level of my career.

00:05:59.360 As far as the transition to sports, the advantage for me was I had the time to try to make that

00:06:05.660 happen.

00:06:06.320 So two of those six years, I was solely focused on just trying cases, winning, building that

00:06:11.500 kind of business, learning.

00:06:13.320 Two years goes by like that.

00:06:15.060 Then I got into a two-year run where I was trying to build the sports business.

00:06:18.540 And I had the flexibility to do that, to fail, took me an extra year to do what I wanted

00:06:24.940 to do in the first six months, which was get a sponsor to sponsor a trip over to Europe.

00:06:29.900 So I had enough time to do all that and then ultimately come out of it on the other side

00:06:35.360 to be prepared to jump to the NBA.

00:06:37.740 Is the sponsor, was that Upper Deck that sponsored you to go to Europe?

00:06:41.000 How did you do that?

00:06:41.820 How did you get Upper Deck to sponsor you?

00:06:43.520 Research.

00:06:44.140 I like that.

00:06:44.780 Yeah, we were the Upper Deck All-Stars.

00:06:46.560 It was a group of free agents from mostly the Chicago area.

00:06:52.040 And I just banged on a bunch of doors.

00:06:54.180 I mean, I just kept, it was title sponsorship of the team and the tour.

00:06:59.720 And that was when the internet was coming online and websites.

00:07:02.900 And I had like this little 3D virtual experience in an arena because I had a cousin who could build

00:07:10.000 those sorts of models.

00:07:11.140 It was totally like a side thing.

00:07:13.420 So I just threw all that at a sponsor to see what they liked.

00:07:16.560 And I ended up finding my way to Upper Deck Trading Card Company.

00:07:19.780 And they had a guy named Joss Boss.

00:07:22.400 I'll never forget him over in Amsterdam.

00:07:24.300 And he had budget.

00:07:26.000 He was looking to extend outside of football into basketball.

00:07:31.540 And I found my way in front of him and he had a little budget.

00:07:34.700 So we became the Upper Deck All-Stars and did two tours.

00:07:38.380 And that's what made it all work because I couldn't afford to underwrite it myself.

00:07:42.280 So any crazy players at the time that you were working with?

00:07:46.160 No, nobody, anybody would know.

00:07:48.040 A few of them went on to the NBA.

00:07:49.820 One was a guy named Donald Whiteside.

00:07:51.520 He was a very good, talented point guard who ended up playing for the Toronto Raptors and

00:07:55.560 is now a coach.

00:07:56.400 And a couple other players, most of which ended up earning a living in Europe.

00:08:02.580 And I was just trying to kind of get things started and learn the business.

00:08:07.340 And over the course of that period of time, I also read the collective bargaining agreement

00:08:12.560 in the NBA.

00:08:13.700 And I got educated on how those rules worked and I could talk that talk a little bit.

00:08:19.620 So I had that basis of information.

00:08:23.080 I read it cover to cover and I outlined it like a law school textbook.

00:08:26.840 How big is it?

00:08:27.500 I mean, how technical is it?

00:08:29.640 You know, it's all legalese and it's legal jargon, right?

00:08:33.260 And then it's written in collective bargaining form.

00:08:36.320 So I don't know.

00:08:36.880 It was three or 400 pages, but written in an outline form, you know, with and it was

00:08:44.120 just having a legal background makes it easier because that's a document constructed by lawyers

00:08:49.000 for lawyers.

00:08:49.740 And then they take that and condense it to a 20 page memo that they do now.

00:08:54.940 That's pretty good.

00:08:55.660 It's easier to understand, but you still get kind of crossed up and you really don't get

00:09:00.620 that until you get in and start doing that work, which is what happened with me at the

00:09:04.940 Grizzlies.

00:09:05.380 But I had a fundamental understanding.

00:09:07.960 I had sort of done enough work that I had something to offer.

00:09:11.000 Now, I often say that to people.

00:09:12.440 It's like, look, you may not be where you're going, but you should angle towards it.

00:09:17.180 You should prepare for it.

00:09:18.420 You should do stuff on your own to be educated in that area.

00:09:22.340 So when whatever you're looking for, the universe presents it to you, you can respond.

00:09:27.920 Did you ever become an agent in the States in MBA or no, you went to straight being an assistant

00:09:32.200 general manager?

00:09:32.880 I was a registered agent in the States.

00:09:35.700 So you had to go through the players association.

00:09:39.060 You know, you pay a pretty strong fee at the time and you get officially registered.

00:09:42.820 So I do have my little card still where I was an agent.

00:09:46.360 Although I never really built that business to where I was an active NBA agent with clients.

00:09:52.420 You know, I did a few small deals here and there, but it was nothing significant at all.

00:09:58.040 And I then was in that business long enough to know I didn't really want to be an agent.

00:10:03.120 One of my best players that I had, the biggest success story, out of nowhere, he just fired me.

00:10:11.080 And that happens to every agent.

00:10:12.680 But I got the letter by FedEx and it kind of broke my heart.

00:10:16.720 And, you know, that was one of those things where it's like, wow, this is a very transactional business.

00:10:22.000 And then funny postscript on that.

00:10:25.920 My daughter is a freshman volleyball player at Boston College, right?

00:10:30.140 And she pieces it together.

00:10:31.560 There's this teammate of hers from Illinois.

00:10:34.220 And it's that player's daughter.

00:10:37.560 Get out of here.

00:10:38.740 Yeah.

00:10:40.360 That's classic.

00:10:42.340 I think I met your daughter last time.

00:10:43.800 When you and I were speaking, she was there.

00:10:45.260 She was visiting from Boston College or something.

00:10:47.380 She was at the house.

00:10:48.820 She came in and said, hi.

00:10:50.920 Very interesting.

00:10:51.840 So the agent part, is it one of those things where it's the 80-20 rule and the 1% make it

00:11:00.260 and 80% get flushed out as agents and only 20% stick around?

00:11:04.580 And out of the 20%, you have one like a Rich Paul that's pretty much got a monopoly in the league.

00:11:09.380 Is that pretty common on how it works or no?

00:11:12.380 Yeah.

00:11:12.820 I mean, historically, there's just a small handful of power agents that control the market

00:11:18.880 because so much of that is who else do you represent?

00:11:22.760 And those players and families get drawn to those big power agents.

00:11:28.420 So you mentioned Rich Paul.

00:11:30.180 You know, back in the day with David Falk and Arne Teller, those sorts of agents,

00:11:37.260 they would just be this gravitational pull for all the real talent.

00:11:41.960 I was just on the periphery.

00:11:44.180 And I was drawn to Europe as an opportunity because there was more room to just hustle

00:11:49.120 and make things work and grow and evolve.

00:11:52.680 Cracking into the true NBA market was really hard because there's so few of those talented

00:11:59.720 players every year.

00:12:00.680 There are only 30 get drafted in the first round, right?

00:12:03.680 So they're not hard to identify.

00:12:06.220 And all the power agents, of course, are on them, you know, from day one.

00:12:11.140 And what's the comp on it?

00:12:12.040 Is the comp 10% or is it, what is the number on it?

00:12:14.780 So back then, the comp in Europe would be 10% of the contract up front paid by the team

00:12:22.440 to the agent.

00:12:23.080 Up front?

00:12:24.300 So you'd get it up front.

00:12:25.460 So if a guy signed for $100,000, you'd get $10,000 up front, right?

00:12:28.900 Okay.

00:12:29.560 In the NBA, if a guy signs for $100,000, it's not that.

00:12:32.940 Let's make it $100 million.

00:12:35.040 The most you could get is 4%.

00:12:37.280 And then that gets negotiated down by competition.

00:12:41.360 And then that's paid over time by the player as he gets paid.

00:12:46.520 So it's just a more difficult situation if you're trying to start out there because you've

00:12:52.120 got to.

00:12:53.180 It's not a lot of money.

00:12:55.580 Well, it's become a lot of money on these bigger deals.

00:12:58.980 But with smaller deals, it's not a lot of money.

00:13:00.960 And then you're trying to collect it from your own player, your own talent over time

00:13:06.940 every two weeks.

00:13:07.740 It's just a challenge.

00:13:08.760 Yeah.

00:13:08.840 But even if I signed a $500,000,000 contract, you get 4%.

00:13:12.520 Let's just say they push it down to $2,000,000, 2.5%.

00:13:15.940 So it's $2,500,000 I'm making on $100,000,000.

00:13:20.920 And I'm not going to get paid that over a five-year period.

00:13:23.520 So it's really $500,000, your income over a five-year period.

00:13:27.740 That's not that crazy of a number.

00:13:29.840 Right.

00:13:30.100 Yeah, and that's if, as, and when you get it, right?

00:13:33.560 And at any point, the player can fire you.

00:13:36.660 Are you still committed to getting that contract that you got?

00:13:39.680 Or how does that work out as an agent?

00:13:45.860 If you got him the full $10,000,000 deal and he fired you the day after you got it,

00:13:51.080 you're still entitled to it.

00:13:52.200 Okay, good.

00:13:53.000 So at least the agent is protected.

00:13:55.420 Legally, you are.

00:13:56.400 But then you got to go chase it.

00:13:58.020 You know, so then you're, if you just play that out a little bit, if you're getting fired

00:14:03.320 by a player who's in the club and then you get in a fight with them to try to go collect

00:14:08.340 what you're legally do, but then your reputation gets hurt.

00:14:12.000 It's just a, it's a, it's a tough business for sure.

00:14:15.720 Um, and as I say, I, I realized I wasn't meant for it, made for it, didn't want to do that.

00:14:22.020 But what it gave me was an avenue to become active in the sports world and then relevant

00:14:28.820 if something else came along, which it did.

00:14:30.900 And, and, and for you becoming a GM, I mean, assistant GM at first with Jerry West for

00:14:38.180 those seven years, which Jerry West to me, he's just a qualified genius is who he is.

00:14:44.420 When the, when the Lakers lost him, there's a couple of people when the Lakers lost that

00:14:48.480 I was concerned.

00:14:49.260 One of them was him.

00:14:50.880 The other one was Kupchak.

00:14:52.420 I don't know why I kind of like Kupchak style.

00:14:54.720 And I also like Jerry style.

00:14:56.380 What was it like working with Jerry for those seven years at Memphis Grizzlies?

00:15:01.640 Yeah, the, the, the path in was through Vancouver, right?

00:15:05.700 We bought the Vancouver Grizzlies and then we moved them to Memphis.

00:15:08.980 So there were two years without Jerry and then five with Jerry.

00:15:13.000 Jerry then came into Memphis as the president of basketball.

00:15:17.620 And it was amazing.

00:15:19.420 I mean, at that time, Patrick, there was, you play that game where you're like, who would

00:15:23.540 you want to have lunch with?

00:15:24.580 If there was anybody you could have lunch with and people would say, Oprah, or, you

00:15:27.820 know, lately, you know, you'd say Obama, whatever it would be in my window there.

00:15:33.740 My answer was Jerry West.

00:15:35.300 Cause I wanted to learn something that was relevant to what I wanted to do.

00:15:40.020 Well, all of a sudden he was, his office was like four feet from mine and his doors always

00:15:45.920 open.

00:15:46.440 And he's, he was an open book, right?

00:15:47.960 He just would, would, uh, allow and ask for help.

00:15:51.520 And we worked very closely together with a, with a team of people.

00:15:55.100 And it was just unbelievable, quite the experience and, uh, you know, a lot of fun to work with.

00:16:02.060 Um, he had true stardust sprinkled on him still at that age.

00:16:08.900 He, he, you know, what was interesting with Jerry was to see grown men in their sixties,

00:16:15.120 just like fangirl out on him when they'd see him at a restaurant because they had seen him

00:16:20.880 for, you know, 40 or 50 years.

00:16:23.700 They had this familiarity with him as he, you know, he's one of those rare athletes that

00:16:28.620 transformed himself into being just as successful in the second phase in a different way.

00:16:35.500 Right.

00:16:35.900 So I never knew him as a player.

00:16:37.500 I just knew him as this iconic executive, sort of what you're reacting to.

00:16:41.420 But Jerry, uh, was a, is a special person, you know, totally unique and was a lot of fun

00:16:46.740 working with him.

00:16:47.660 What was his recruiting style?

00:16:48.800 I mean, there's different ways guys recruit.

00:16:50.640 I kind of watched him closely to see how he recruited.

00:16:54.800 I watched how Cupcheck recruited Dwight Howard.

00:16:58.080 He brought him in, took him in one of the rooms.

00:17:00.200 He says, look at the rafters.

00:17:01.500 Look who's up there.

00:17:02.140 The big man, Kareem, Will, Shaq.

00:17:05.260 One day it's going to say Howard there.

00:17:07.000 And then, you know, you kind of saw that didn't work out with Howard's personality because

00:17:11.360 he didn't want that kind of pressure to be compared to the shadows of the guys.

00:17:15.280 What was Jerry's style of recruiting?

00:17:18.160 Well, we were recruiting a different caliber of athlete.

00:17:21.200 We were doing a build from, you know, one of the worst teams in the league.

00:17:24.460 So in a way it was drafting talent and then retaining talent and then getting guys on the,

00:17:32.140 just getting talent at any level.

00:17:33.780 But it wasn't those kinds of superstars where you're recruiting.

00:17:37.500 It was more, let's get this guy to come.

00:17:40.120 Let's identify, let's trade for him.

00:17:42.100 A lot of those conversations happen very directly with agents.

00:17:46.160 So that was where it was a, you know, I mentioned Arn Tellem as an example.

00:17:50.780 So Arn was a very close friend to Jerry's, Arn representing Kobe Bryant and a number of

00:17:56.200 the other key acquisitions through the years for the Lakers.

00:18:00.660 And they were, I was surprised at just how close they were personally.

00:18:06.860 You know, I always envisioned that that'd be more of a contentious relationship.

00:18:11.160 And yeah, we hate agents and this and that.

00:18:13.360 But what you learned, what I learned from Jerry was just the importance of deep,

00:18:17.280 deep longstanding relationships with the power agents because so many of those guys control

00:18:23.080 so much of the talent and they can really help fulfill what you're trying to accomplish.

00:18:27.620 So that was part of the art, part of the science of what you'd call recruiting or talent procurement

00:18:34.320 in the NBA.

00:18:35.880 So he was a relationship salesman.

00:18:37.820 So he sold through having strong relationships with agents because if he got the agents,

00:18:43.840 he got the players.

00:18:44.600 So it's half the battle of recruiting players and having a good relationship with players

00:18:50.320 through the agent.

00:18:52.620 How much of it is the agent?

00:18:54.020 How much of it is the family?

00:18:55.300 How much of it is the wife? 1.00

00:18:56.380 How much of it is the parents?

00:18:57.520 How much of it is the player?

00:18:58.880 Or does it vary player by player?

00:19:01.940 Well, it's changed.

00:19:03.420 It was a little more agent driven back then.

00:19:06.800 And in the modern era, I think it's a little more peer and player to player driven.

00:19:11.620 So you see more and more the way that LeBron as a player combined with Maverick Carter and

00:19:19.280 his agency that LeBron is an owner of, they're able to assemble the current Lakers roster in

00:19:24.820 a way where they're doing a lot of maneuvering and manipulating and the straight up recruiting.

00:19:30.000 You know, the straight up recruiting is technically illegal if it comes from any member of an

00:19:36.620 other team.

00:19:37.340 That's tampering.

00:19:38.500 You can't tamper with current players on other rosters.

00:19:42.580 Well, a loophole in that has been player to player where the players, we can't restrict

00:19:48.640 what they do or say to each other.

00:19:50.520 So over the last 10 years or so, that's really taken form.

00:19:55.480 You know, even going back to Pat Riley was the last one in Miami to really assemble the

00:20:01.560 big three down there with a true recruiting focus.

00:20:05.400 He went in and sold them and pitched them.

00:20:07.320 He had Wade, but he had to get Wade to recommit.

00:20:10.040 And then he got LeBron and Bosh to join.

00:20:13.400 But the other secret of that success was he got them all to take like 5 million less than

00:20:19.100 they should have taken.

00:20:19.800 That's right.

00:20:20.520 18 million, 19 million, 16 million.

00:20:22.660 I don't remember the number.

00:20:23.400 And I think even Bosh was getting the most money out of the three.

00:20:26.880 Right.

00:20:27.220 So they all took a haircut of 5 million that freed up 15 million a year to go get the next

00:20:32.480 three.

00:20:33.140 You know, the Mike Millers of the world, the way they were out and really gave them the

00:20:38.740 finals championship caliber every year.

00:20:42.300 So, but now it's much more, you know, James Harden goes to be with Durant and goes to

00:20:49.680 be with Kyrie because there's direct conversations happening as part of that whole exchange.

00:20:55.020 You know, when Chris Paul moves or maneuvers, he's talking direct with whoever he's going

00:21:00.140 to be playing with.

00:21:00.980 And of course, LeBron bringing Anthony Davis represented by that same group.

00:21:06.120 You know, that was the core, the key to transitioning the Lakers from worst to first.

00:21:11.080 You think this is sustainable long-term because, you know, if you think about how the league

00:21:15.840 was back in the days, take Michael.

00:21:18.060 Okay.

00:21:19.000 So if you go era, Michael and then go prior era, let's say, you know, well, I can't really

00:21:27.020 say, well, let's just say bird magic because they came in when they came in.

00:21:30.980 So Michael, then Kobe Shaq, and then you got LeBron today.

00:21:35.240 When Magic and Bird were running versus Michael versus LeBron and Kobe and today, could Magic

00:21:44.300 and Bird or even Jordan do what LeBron is doing today to the league back in their era?

00:21:52.120 Which aspect of it?

00:21:53.900 The fact that, I mean, if I were to say to you right now, who is the most powerful figure

00:22:00.880 in the NBA, it's LeBron, right?

00:22:04.680 He has the most power that nobody has more power in the NBA than LeBron.

00:22:08.440 He still keeps it.

00:22:09.260 Now, his job is to stay healthy, relevant, do the things that he does.

00:22:13.340 And he's a visionary guy.

00:22:14.280 He's going to do big things.

00:22:14.940 So he's doing his part, but he's the most powerful guy.

00:22:17.200 But if I told you in 2000, the most powerful person in the NBA, would you have said Kobe

00:22:25.200 or would you have said a different name?

00:22:27.700 And if I was to tell you, let's go into 1991 when Jordan won his first, would you have

00:22:34.220 said the most powerful person in the NBA is Michael or would it be Jerry Buss?

00:22:37.700 Would it have been another Jerry or because it's changing based on who has the most power?

00:22:42.320 Well, I'd say first in any era right there is the commissioner.

00:22:47.440 I mean, the commissioner in each of those cases has tremendous power.

00:22:50.900 And because the commissioner represents the combined true power of the ownership, right?

00:22:58.780 So they will last past any player.

00:23:03.440 Even today?

00:23:04.300 Oh, yeah.

00:23:04.900 I mean, if LeBron couldn't take the league down, LeBron could disrupt things and impact

00:23:12.680 business for a little bit.

00:23:13.800 But the league will go on, right?

00:23:16.640 Sure.

00:23:17.500 Of course.

00:23:18.140 But when you get into the most, I would have said Jordan, I mean, back in the day, as I

00:23:23.240 reflect on it, in the early 90s, when Jordan was in his heyday, he was, you know, massively

00:23:32.100 influential, powerful and, you know, global.

00:23:36.420 And, but he wasn't, and they, and he, he was the draw because he and Pippen were such a

00:23:44.540 solid base.

00:23:45.280 They're able to flip all the other pieces around them and dominate and win six, effectively

00:23:51.620 six in a row because Jordan was gone for two of them.

00:23:55.800 So he was that dominant as a talent and as a draw.

00:23:59.100 LeBron is, it has been different because he's, wherever he's gone, it has followed, which

00:24:05.840 is different.

00:24:06.740 You know, Jordan was in one place and it all came to him.

00:24:09.620 This notion of LeBron just going from Cleveland to Miami, four straight in the finals, goes

00:24:16.800 right back to Cleveland where they were literally the worst and they get to first and they go

00:24:22.160 to the finals.

00:24:23.000 It was, you know, it was just incredible.

00:24:24.360 Then he does the same thing coming out here to LA, albeit it took a year.

00:24:32.480 That shows the, I don't know if back in that era, Jordan could have done that because it

00:24:39.580 was a different time.

00:24:40.740 You know, they're just, people wouldn't have been able to come with him the way they do

00:24:43.600 now.

00:24:46.240 Yeah.

00:24:46.760 And also, I mean, David Stern was a different animal.

00:24:49.100 David Stern was a, he was feared and respected.

00:24:53.380 It was a different way.

00:24:55.540 And I'm not saying Adam Silver doesn't have that kind of a personality, but Adam Silver

00:24:58.740 comes across very different than Stern did.

00:25:01.980 I just don't know if, if LeBron was to be playing in the eighties or nineties, could he

00:25:09.620 have gone around and told everybody, Hey, if it's not working out with the owner, leave

00:25:12.920 the team.

00:25:13.340 Hey, if it's not working out with the owner, leave the team.

00:25:15.140 Like right now, players are just coming out and saying, look, I don't like playing with

00:25:18.920 the team.

00:25:19.320 I'm leaving.

00:25:19.800 Hey, Anthony Davis.

00:25:20.560 I don't want to be with the Pelicans.

00:25:21.640 I'm leaving.

00:25:22.160 So if I'm a small market and if I'm getting ready to spend $2 billion to buy a team, say

00:25:27.880 two to $3 billion to buy any team in the NBA today, if I'm, if I'm a small market, what

00:25:34.160 makes Michael think he's going to be able to keep LaMelo ball for more than seven years

00:25:39.220 before he goes to Celtics or he goes to Miami or he goes to the Lakers or, you know, what

00:25:43.440 makes Milwaukee think they can keep Giannis for another four years?

00:25:47.280 Yeah.

00:25:47.460 They just signed a contract, but almost the smaller markets are being bullied more today,

00:25:52.240 but maybe it's been the same for decades.

00:25:54.700 You're in it.

00:25:55.320 What are your thoughts on it?

00:25:56.760 Now that's changed.

00:25:58.180 I mean, I personally hate this.

00:26:01.020 I hate the fact that you can celebrate a long-term extension.

00:26:05.460 Your Giannis example is a perfect one.

00:26:07.340 You know, you feel like you got him locked up.

00:26:09.120 You make these incredible financial commitment, all fully guaranteed the second he signs it,

00:26:15.860 no matter what.

00:26:17.440 And then he can James Harden his way out of here in a year or two.

00:26:21.820 I mean, Harden just did it in Houston.

00:26:23.540 As soon as it got unpleasant, as soon as they weren't consulting him on every move or whatever,

00:26:29.300 you know, it just, he became a crabby, cantankerous and just, and Bogart his way right out of his deal.

00:26:39.120 And, you know, undercuts the trade value on his way out because everybody in the league knows what the deal is.

00:26:45.800 And it's, it's a, it's a disturbing trend in the NBA for sure.

00:26:51.320 Yeah.

00:26:51.940 You know, all it does to me is I wonder, let's just say if I'm about, about, about to own a sports team,

00:26:57.380 would I buy a small market or buying to a small market?

00:27:00.780 Not in today's league.

00:27:02.400 I would be very concerned about being a small market in today's league.

00:27:06.100 It would concern the hell out of me because, because today it's such a player's market

00:27:12.080 that players are essentially bullying everybody.

00:27:15.420 It's, it's full on bullying.

00:27:17.380 They are bullying everybody.

00:27:19.060 Now, don't get me wrong.

00:27:20.140 If we go back in the eighties, we could say, Jerry, the GM was bullying everybody on the bull.

00:27:26.500 So there was an element of that taking place.

00:27:28.280 So the, the happy medium is kind of tough to be, it's almost like we go far one side, it's GM or ownership control.

00:27:35.300 Then we go too much of a player side, it's player control.

00:27:38.040 But we all know that LeBron's eventually going to own a sports team, you know?

00:27:41.800 So, so how do you manage that balance, the two between the player and the owners?

00:27:46.920 The reality today, I would not want to own a sports team today if it wasn't a small market.

00:27:51.400 Sort of depends.

00:27:52.540 Depends on which league you're in.

00:27:53.920 Green Bay Packers doing okay.

00:27:55.640 Right.

00:27:56.240 That's the NFL though.

00:27:57.100 In the NFL, they're all profitable because of the way they share revenues and because of the massive media.

00:28:04.300 I agree.

00:28:04.900 So every single team in the NFL is profitable, no matter how bad they screw it up.

00:28:08.900 Just look in Jacksonville.

00:28:10.040 Yeah.

00:28:10.740 And then in the NBA with more revenue sharing now, the smaller markets have become, and with a subsidy from the league, effectively, the smaller markets have become much more healthy financially.

00:28:25.500 And then you do have some superstars who have maintained a significant presence in a small market.

00:28:32.460 I mean, Damian Lillard right now seems just fine in Portland.

00:28:35.960 Giannis is a good example.

00:28:37.220 He's re-signed twice in Milwaukee.

00:28:39.760 And they're one of the best teams in the league because of his extreme talent.

00:28:43.600 And then, of course, you have the success of the Spurs for decades in one of the smallest markets in the league.

00:28:48.520 And the Utah Jazz right now are pretty darn good in a small market.

00:28:52.000 And so on and so forth.

00:28:52.860 So all those rules in the league tend to give those small markets a fighting chance, except baseball.

00:29:00.120 You know, that's where it's still just wacky.

00:29:02.300 So let me ask you this.

00:29:02.980 Having been around Jerry and having been around a lot of different guys, then does that mean when you're putting a team together, what is your number one?

00:29:12.560 Is your number one putting a coach like Pop together that's going to keep the players for a while?

00:29:17.120 Or is the number one getting a good GM?

00:29:19.420 Is the number one getting a superstar like Giannis?

00:29:21.800 What is the number one to keep not necessarily the golden handcuffs, but to be able to get a team that's willing to be in a market like San Antonio, which, you know, it's not necessarily the craziest.

00:29:33.900 Outside of the Three River Stadium and the Alamo, you got nothing really going on over there.

00:29:37.860 I'm starting from day one.

00:29:39.080 I want the best player because you need the best player to establish any kind of competitiveness and greatness.

00:29:44.920 But if I want to start from scratch with this notion of what's most important, most important is committed ownership.

00:29:53.620 So you need deep pocketed, passionate ownership that's in it for the right reason, because over time, that's what sustains things and wins.

00:30:02.180 And you want a good head on that guy's shoulders or gal, whoever that owner is, somebody that will then go higher good management.

00:30:10.220 So in your San Antonio Spurs example, you had solid ownership that just got Popovich and R.C. Buford as this incredible tandem to lead basketball operations and to maintain this incredible level of success over the years, in spite of being in a small market.

00:30:28.300 It was just, you know, 20 years of exceptional work there.

00:30:32.240 But there's no question it's a talent game.

00:30:37.600 So in that scenario, if you're giving me for one year the best owner, the best coach, or the best player, I'll take the best player.

00:30:45.620 Who's the second?

00:30:47.420 Second in that higher.

00:30:48.280 So go with that.

00:30:49.160 Do your draft.

00:30:49.860 Best owner, best GM, best player, best coach.

00:30:52.600 If first is best player, what's second?

00:30:54.540 If it's for one year, it's the best coach because he's going to have the most influence on performance.

00:30:59.420 Okay, give me if you want to build a legacy.

00:31:00.920 Like if you want to build a 10-year run.

00:31:02.760 So if you're first as player, what's your second?

00:31:06.440 Well, if it's a 10-year run, it's still best owner.

00:31:11.580 You got to have the best owner to give you the chance to make all those maneuvers and, you know, and to do all that.

00:31:16.520 Then you got to have great management.

00:31:18.260 You know, just build a top job.

00:31:19.680 Got it.

00:31:20.300 Okay, got it.

00:31:21.580 So you're going owner, GM, coach, player.

00:31:25.960 Owner, GM, player, coach.

00:31:28.100 Owner.

00:31:28.620 Okay, got it.

00:31:29.600 Interesting.

00:31:29.980 Owner, GM, player, coach.

00:31:33.460 And why is coach last for you?

00:31:36.380 Because the coach is only as good as his players.

00:31:40.820 I mean, you know, the great coaches pick the great talent to go coach.

00:31:46.040 That's how it works.

00:31:47.020 Yes, there's this theory that you get an amazing coach and he's going to max out whatever talent he has, but that's only within a small band of a small percentage.

00:31:59.140 If you put Greg Popovich with the worst talent in the league, he may win them five more games.

00:32:07.700 So they go from 15 wins to 20 or 22, but he can't take a 15-win talent and get it to 500.

00:32:15.620 I wonder if he sees this, if he'll be offended by that.

00:32:18.260 If you'll say, come on.

00:32:19.240 You know I'd take him into the playoffs, even if you gave me a bunch of scrubs.

00:32:23.200 I'm sure he would agree with you on that.

00:32:24.980 But so if that's the case, who would you put right now as the best coaches in the NBA?

00:32:28.420 Best coaches in the NBA.

00:32:33.560 Well, Pop is still, you know, over time as good as it gets.

00:32:37.660 Just a master.

00:32:38.760 What I look for in a coach is a master relationship expert and a tactician, you know, and a competitor and everything that goes with that.

00:32:46.980 And Greg Popovich is just truly amazing.

00:32:50.880 Eric Spolster has quietly done just a remarkable job over the years down in Miami.

00:32:56.960 You know, a great guy, a very incredibly hard, incredible hard worker, managed that unusual transition to come in and succeed Pat Riley, who's one of the biggest personalities and most respected just NBA studs.

00:33:17.220 You know, just a, he's, Pat's revered by so many folks for what he's done in so many different places and just kind of who he is.

00:33:24.880 And Spolster has just done a remarkable job of navigating through all that.

00:33:32.660 So you put Spolster as second behind, interesting.

00:33:36.320 Well, I don't know.

00:33:37.040 I don't have my list in front of me.

00:33:38.260 There are plenty of others.

00:33:39.380 He just jumped into my head.

00:33:41.020 Yeah, I mean, listen, it's respect because even if you think about it, who the hell thought last year Miami was going to go to the finals and let alone win a couple?

00:33:47.320 You know, nobody thought they were going to go that far.

00:33:50.060 And that's a lot of credit for Spolster.

00:33:51.700 So here's the other question about the NBA.

00:33:54.000 I'm curious to know what you'll say about this.

00:33:55.900 Is LeBron getting paid what he's worth?

00:33:58.860 This is how I kind of process it.

00:34:00.580 And maybe I'm wrong.

00:34:01.800 Hear me out.

00:34:03.120 These guaranteed contracts, I'm not a fan of.

00:34:06.780 However, I also don't think the players are getting paid accordingly.

00:34:10.320 But accordingly, and this is what I mean by it, I am much for, like LeBron right now is making what, 39-6?

00:34:16.940 I don't know the exact number.

00:34:17.980 He's making what, 39-219.

00:34:20.280 Okay, Curry's making 43.

00:34:22.680 You got Westbrook making what he's making with 41.

00:34:25.520 You got four people at 41, Westbrook, Paul Harden, and Wall.

00:34:28.960 Durant's at 40, and then you got LeBron at 39.

00:34:31.300 Okay, there's no way in the world LeBron's worth 39.

00:34:34.160 Okay, LeBron is, you know, when you got a Messi and some of the other soccer players making what they're making,

00:34:40.080 and I get it that soccer's got more viewership, it's more international, it's more bigger than the NBA,

00:34:46.120 and the NBA is trying to kind of do that.

00:34:48.260 But when a LeBron comes to your market, listen, everybody makes more money in that community.

00:34:53.340 When LeBron comes to your market, so is a player like him, where he is the face of the NBA,

00:34:59.860 you know, Michael last year, I don't know what he got paid his last year,

00:35:02.320 30 million or some astronomical number that he got paid, and most of his career he got underpaid.

00:35:07.560 What do you think LeBron's getting paid what he's worth right now?

00:35:09.880 Or do you think it's closer to an 80 to 100 million dollar a year player?

00:35:13.180 I'd say more than that.

00:35:14.940 I would agree.

00:35:16.380 Messi is more than that.

00:35:18.680 And while global football, you're right, the economics are different, but those, you know,

00:35:26.260 Barcelona doesn't make money, they're in debt.

00:35:28.460 And that's because they can't lose a guy like Messi.

00:35:31.380 So they go, you know, figure it out.

00:35:33.540 But, you know, the maximum salary, the short answer is for sure LeBron is underpaid, not

00:35:42.100 just because he's at 39 and other guys are at 41 or 42.

00:35:45.520 It's because he should be more like 100, let's say.

00:35:48.640 I agree.

00:35:49.440 Yeah.

00:35:49.600 But the reason that happens is because of collective bargaining, because there's an economic system

00:35:56.900 in place designed to make all the boats rise and to make all those teams be competitive.

00:36:02.580 So the players get together and collectively bargain for these totally anti-American things.

00:36:07.880 I mean, in no other industry can some arbitrary system decide where you can go work via the

00:36:14.020 draft, right?

00:36:15.080 But they agree to do that.

00:36:16.480 Totally un-American.

00:36:17.940 The whole restricted free agency.

00:36:19.920 You can't leave our team unless we get a chance to pay you just as much.

00:36:23.540 Well, there's no other industry where that makes sense.

00:36:25.520 Collected bargaining.

00:36:27.620 Maximum salary.

00:36:28.740 We're going to put a firm cap on the most money any player can make.

00:36:33.320 Well, there's a minimum salary, right?

00:36:34.980 So, you know, they're all making about a million bucks now.

00:36:37.480 So those are the trade-offs that occur.

00:36:40.760 And LeBron, as a superstar, absolutely got squeezed and gets squeezed by having that maximum

00:36:48.100 keep his value down.

00:36:50.500 Got it.

00:36:50.700 So he is essentially helping a lot of the lower-level players that would typically be

00:36:56.660 a quarter-million-dollar-a-year player or a $400,000 player.

00:36:59.420 He put him at a million.

00:37:00.860 So when his comp went lower, theirs went a little higher.

00:37:04.200 Or if I pull off a Kyrie Irving and I say, guys, I don't feel like working the next two

00:37:09.240 weeks, does the team still have to pay him or no?

00:37:12.340 No.

00:37:13.320 Well, if the player flat refuses to show up and work, there's progressive discipline that

00:37:21.380 occurs, but including suspension, you don't pay.

00:37:25.120 But these trade-offs that occur now more and more with the resting healthy guys just for

00:37:31.360 the sake of managing their minutes and, you know, this latest era of nobody plays 82 games

00:37:38.200 anymore because they're going to rest them.

00:37:39.900 You know, that's that slippery slope where you continue to pay guys to not work.

00:37:44.640 And the league has tried to shut that down because, you know, we're all paying what we're

00:37:49.640 paying.

00:37:50.440 If we're allowed to go to a game, we as fans are paying that ticket price to go see the

00:37:55.120 talent.

00:37:55.920 And then it just doesn't show up.

00:37:57.680 They're trying to rectify that.

00:38:00.280 Yeah.

00:38:00.460 So the solution for that, if I was running an account plan, is I would overpay a LeBron to

00:38:05.180 a hundred million dollar a year plan, but if a guy didn't play, you ain't getting paid

00:38:09.840 either.

00:38:10.560 So, so it would be, Hey, Kyrie, you want to take nine games off?

00:38:13.320 No problem.

00:38:13.740 You're 31 million divided by 82 games.

00:38:16.400 You just lost 31 million divided by 82 games times nine games that you missed just because

00:38:22.180 you don't want to show up.

00:38:24.040 It's easy with specific examples, but in collective bargaining, they just set the rules of

00:38:28.680 I'm sure they do.

00:38:29.700 I'm sure you got a union watching out for every Kyrie Irving so that it doesn't happen

00:38:34.600 Totally get it.

00:38:35.740 Totally.

00:38:36.040 You add a union to anything.

00:38:37.180 These types of things happen.

00:38:38.200 I just think a guy like LeBron, a guy like LeBron who brings whatever he brings to the

00:38:44.800 market.

00:38:45.080 He's not a 40 million dollar guy.

00:38:46.780 That's an 80 to a hundred million dollar guy.

00:38:48.340 It's not higher.

00:38:49.280 Now look, the argument would be that the system is so healthy and has worked so well.

00:38:53.600 And it's such a healthy league that LeBron's able to be LeBron on the rest of the stage

00:39:00.180 and earn everything else that comes with it.

00:39:02.400 So that'd be the overall argument as far as how that a healthy NBA gives the platform

00:39:10.180 for LeBron to be LeBron.

00:39:12.220 I mean, I don't own a team in the NBA yet.

00:39:14.200 But if I did, I would say, hey guys, why don't we also protect the owners a little bit

00:39:18.960 and protect the players?

00:39:20.000 We'll play you a little bit more, but also at the same time, you know, we also want to

00:39:24.660 be protected on this end.

00:39:26.440 And who knows how those conversations go.

00:39:28.640 You know, you got to be careful with these lawyers, Tom.

00:39:30.700 I mean, these lawyers, just very interesting people, these lawyers are.

00:39:34.160 That's right.

00:39:35.000 Exactly right.

00:39:35.900 So now you go to LAFC.

00:39:37.920 So you've done what you've done in the NBA.

00:39:39.860 You go become an analyst at the ESPN.

00:39:43.280 You know, you refuse to take a position as a GM with 76ers.

00:39:47.480 And by the way, what year was that when you said you don't want the GM position at 76ers?

00:39:51.020 I'm not sure it went down exactly like that, but what year was that?

00:39:59.220 Around 2013, maybe?

00:40:02.700 I don't know.

00:40:03.900 2012, maybe?

00:40:05.940 When did Embiid get picked?

00:40:08.040 What was the year Embiid got picked?

00:40:10.080 Oh, way later.

00:40:11.240 Oh, way later.

00:40:12.040 Got it.

00:40:12.340 Okay.

00:40:12.580 So 2013, who was there in 2012, 2013?

00:40:15.000 Who was their best player?

00:40:15.780 AI?

00:40:16.960 Higodawa?

00:40:17.440 Now, Doug Collins was the coach.

00:40:21.280 Elton Brand was playing.

00:40:24.220 Sorry, I can't remember.

00:40:25.980 2012 76ers.

00:40:27.800 Wasn't Andre Iguodawa in the...

00:40:29.500 Yeah, Iguodawa was there.

00:40:31.080 Yep.

00:40:32.300 Yep.

00:40:33.060 I'm curious now who it was.

00:40:34.540 Okay.

00:40:35.340 So you decided to go play Larry Allen, Elton Brand.

00:40:40.440 Yeah, Elton Brand, Drew Holliday, Andre Iguodawa.

00:40:44.360 Interesting squad.

00:40:45.360 Lou Williams.

00:40:45.960 Yeah, but that was a period of time where I interviewed with them, went through the whole

00:40:52.880 process, didn't happen, didn't work out, and, you know...

00:40:58.040 Why didn't you want to be a GM?

00:40:59.460 What...

00:40:59.940 Moving forward.

00:41:01.100 At that time, I kind of did want to be a GM.

00:41:03.300 It was just a matter of finding the right fit.

00:41:05.240 Got it.

00:41:05.920 Got it.

00:41:06.940 Look, I had done this sports summit in Aspen that brought together sports owners from

00:41:11.140 around the world, and then we did other best practice summits for college athletic directors

00:41:16.700 for sports management.

00:41:18.320 So that got me out of the silo of being in basketball operations and being a GM.

00:41:24.200 And it sort of broadened my entire look into other sports and into other jobs.

00:41:31.320 You know, being the president of a team, for example.

00:41:34.640 And then from that ecosystem in Aspen with the sports owners came the investors for LAFC.

00:41:40.900 And we were able to put together a really compelling group to come to Los Angeles and get a major

00:41:47.400 league expansion team and the chance to build a whole club from nothing.

00:41:54.320 You know, it was just in October of 2014, we were an idea and the LAFC.com was available

00:42:02.980 and we went and snuck out and bought it.

00:42:04.880 And we decided we'd kick off with that identity.

00:42:07.560 And then, you know, everything happened from there where we just basically, you know, created

00:42:13.680 the whole thing out of nothing.

00:42:15.060 It was fun.

00:42:15.300 And that was a sick experience, I bet.

00:42:17.260 I mean, you were the president.

00:42:18.440 You were president of it for how long?

00:42:20.140 Five or six years?

00:42:21.560 Yeah, six.

00:42:22.960 So, yeah, I was the sort of first person hired, but we had been in pursuit of the team.

00:42:28.040 So we had put together the group to acquire the team.

00:42:31.020 And so I had assembled the ownership group along with Henry Nguyen was an investor from Vietnam

00:42:37.140 who came in initially.

00:42:38.160 And then Peter Guber, who owns the Warriors and the Dodgers and is an iconic Hollywood

00:42:44.760 figure, was big in music and giant in film, chairman of Sony.

00:42:50.380 And then he's reinvented himself as just a really, really well-respected sports owner.

00:42:56.700 So Peter became our executive chairman and was this linchpin partner that made the whole

00:43:01.480 thing work.

00:43:02.700 And we were awarded the expansion franchise in Major League Soccer and, you know, had

00:43:08.680 made a financial commitment to build a brand new stadium.

00:43:12.020 And there hadn't been an outdoor stadium built in Los Angeles since Dodger Stadium in 1962.

00:43:18.460 So it wasn't an easy thing to do, but we were able to incrementally do it.

00:43:23.360 We built Bank of California Stadium, which is just this absolutely spectacular venue right

00:43:29.360 in the heart of the city, really an unbelievable experience.

00:43:34.800 You know, one of the, I say it's the best fan experience in sports in America.

00:43:41.380 It's just an incredible experience because the fans sing the entire time.

00:43:46.200 It's this just joyous, super passionate atmosphere that you don't find even in college.

00:43:52.000 College football is similar with the band and the rhythm of a student section.

00:43:56.540 But the LAFC game is like amazing because it's just so organic and you got regular people

00:44:03.120 coming together, singing and cheering and drinking beer and throwing beer when we score goals.

00:44:09.560 It's cool.

00:44:10.480 How big do you think it's going to, how big do you think soccer is going to get in the

00:44:13.020 U.S.?

00:44:13.280 You think it's eventually going to get to the point where we'll win a World Cup in the next

00:44:17.500 decade, two decades, three decades?

00:44:19.560 What do you think?

00:44:20.140 Those are two separate questions.

00:44:24.340 So the part about winning the World Cup is a tactical question about whether we can get

00:44:30.400 a pipeline and a system of talent development that's on par with what's in the rest of the

00:44:37.040 world.

00:44:38.380 Our competitive advantage in a way is we're such a big country with so much talent.

00:44:43.380 Our disadvantage is we're such a big country with so much other opportunity.

00:44:48.980 And it's really hard to train players in Los Angeles the way they'll train in Texas, the

00:44:54.800 way they'll train in the Philadelphia, New York area, for example.

00:44:58.800 Those are just, those are like separate countries when it comes to the whole approach, the whole

00:45:03.960 ethos of the way, you know, the ideology.

00:45:07.140 Whereas Germany and they were able to come up with their whole system and then just take 1.00

00:45:14.180 all the talent, put it into that one sport and build it into that juggernaut that the

00:45:19.240 German national team became.

00:45:21.740 I don't know if we can do that.

00:45:23.720 There's a lot of effort and conversation around it.

00:45:26.380 And as soon as we start getting our best athletes, physical athletes drawn to that sport where

00:45:34.020 they can stay in that sport, that's what's important with MLS's development is there's

00:45:37.680 now a clear professional path forward in that sport that can be appealing where they can

00:45:42.460 make money.

00:45:43.340 And that hasn't been there for generations.

00:45:45.800 So that's as it relates to the national team, as it relates to just the trajectory of

00:45:49.940 the sport in general.

00:45:51.200 I don't know that it eclipses something like American football or the NBA, but there's a

00:45:57.600 lot of room for it to grow.

00:46:00.120 And the media attention can be massive in America.

00:46:04.420 And then there's no other global sport.

00:46:08.580 I mean, let's not fool ourselves.

00:46:10.240 The NBA is not anywhere near football, global football when it comes to relevance.

00:46:16.740 I mean, you know that.

00:46:17.740 That's true.

00:46:18.120 But I always thought the NBA was global.

00:46:20.420 Being in soccer, there's nothing like it.

00:46:24.780 Yeah, it's craziness with soccer.

00:46:26.440 I mean, it's a whole different story.

00:46:28.000 And Carlos Ville, I just pulled up his salary, 2018, $4.5 million, what he was making.

00:46:34.280 So some of these guys starting to make some checks, which is good for the younger guys.

00:46:37.940 Would in this case, would it be the same as building a 10-year legacy on a team, meaning

00:46:42.480 you need a good owner, then you need the right GM, then you need a player, then you need

00:46:46.900 the right coach, what would need to happen for America to commit to winning a World Cup?

00:46:52.780 Do we need to go recruit the biggest, best coaches and trainers and bring them in and

00:46:57.480 teach other coaches in the U.S. how to coach other kids?

00:47:01.160 So all of a sudden, there's a 90-day camp of coaches in the U.S. from Texas, from Philadelphia,

00:47:06.780 from Florida, from California, come go through a camp of how to train their guys.

00:47:09.900 How would you build that up in America?

00:47:11.380 Well, I don't have that answer, or we would have done it.

00:47:14.740 You know, they've tried different things in America.

00:47:16.560 Those are different things.

00:47:17.620 So with a national team, it's a different experience.

00:47:23.140 They're never together for 90 days.

00:47:25.400 Maybe if they're at a World Cup and they go the whole way.

00:47:28.280 So you get the best talent.

00:47:30.880 You bring them together in windows of like one, two, and four weeks.

00:47:36.620 Or maybe for a long summer competition, it's six weeks.

00:47:39.740 It's just – and then they continue to play on their professional teams the whole time.

00:47:44.300 So they just take a break in the soccer schedule.

00:47:47.580 The best players go play for their national teams for two weeks, and then they come back,

00:47:51.220 and they keep going, and they play year-round.

00:47:53.960 So it's a different coaching challenge.

00:47:57.100 So the U.S. went out and got Jürgen Klinsmann from the German national team from that way of life,

00:48:04.440 thinking they could replicate that way, and that didn't work.

00:48:07.260 They've had homegrown coaches like Bob Bradley, who's the coach at LAFC.

00:48:12.040 He had a ton of success in building a team that went well, but then that ended quickly, right?

00:48:18.240 So it's just – it's a different – it's a completely different animal.

00:48:21.440 And if I had an answer to your question as to how to systematize the nation, our nation,

00:48:27.700 with our size and our challenges, I'd be in a different role, making a lot more money.

00:48:33.600 I'd be curious to know what country used the model that worked, that they went from nobody to somebody.

00:48:38.560 That's what I'd be curious about.

00:48:39.680 Because when you typically think about it, who do you think about?

00:48:42.220 You think about Brazil.

00:48:43.960 You think about Argentina.

00:48:45.060 You think about Germany.

00:48:46.100 I was in Germany in 1990 when they won it.

00:48:48.160 You think about France, Italy.

00:48:50.380 You think about some of these guys.

00:48:51.580 But how about the country that was irrelevant that came and won, and how did they do it?

00:48:54.540 I'd be curious to know what their model was.

00:48:56.200 But, you know, Beckham obviously came and he played, which was big when he came out.

00:48:59.980 And then Zlatan came out, and I went and watched Zlatan play.

00:49:02.960 It was ridiculous watching how folks in LA were reacting to Zlatan play.

00:49:08.760 And the whole controversy between Zlatan and Vea, I think that was needed for the MLS, believe it or not.

00:49:13.800 I think there's some kind of an animosity.

00:49:16.080 You need somebody like that.

00:49:17.120 Do you think a Messi or Ronaldo will eventually play in the MLS?

00:49:21.500 I do.

00:49:21.920 I think Ronaldo will sunset his career here just to transition to the rest of his life.

00:49:28.040 Could.

00:49:28.980 I think that's a natural.

00:49:31.520 How about Messi?

00:49:32.720 I don't know.

00:49:33.460 Maybe.

00:49:33.960 Messi's less interested in all that stuff.

00:49:37.080 Messi's more just about expressing his art, playing his tail off, you know, being compensated for it.

00:49:44.660 He's less diverse, dynamic in terms of his interest level.

00:49:50.040 Tom, last topic before we wrap up.

00:49:53.200 You did some stuff with upper deck before.

00:49:55.300 Were you ever a baseball card or basketball card guy or not really?

00:49:58.460 No, I wasn't.

00:49:59.380 Uh-uh.

00:49:59.740 You?

00:49:59.960 You were not.

00:50:03.260 Well, I am.

00:50:04.120 I recently sold a couple Gretzky cards for $2 million.

00:50:08.200 It was the most expensive hockey card sold.

00:50:10.200 So, I've been in cards for 30 years.

00:50:12.460 And the only reason I brought up cards is because you got upper deck to sponsor you when you're going to Europe.

00:50:18.200 So, maybe you had a connection with cards.

00:50:20.520 What do you think about these crazy things going on with cards right now?

00:50:23.360 Dirk's card sold on his birthday for $4.6 million. 0.97

00:50:27.140 It's lunatics like you willing to trade in this money. 0.98

00:50:30.780 I don't get it. 1.00

00:50:32.320 Let me ask you.

00:50:35.120 You really sold two Gretzky cards for that kind of money?

00:50:38.640 Two Gretzky cards for one of them I sold for $1.29 million.

00:50:47.780 And the other one I sold for $720,000.

00:50:52.520 Yeah, it was all over the news and it was pretty intense.

00:50:55.040 And were those originals that you had from the beginning or did you buy them?

00:50:58.660 I bought them for $540,000, both of them, 18 months prior to me selling it.

00:51:06.600 So, I bought it for $540,000, 18 months later, sold it for $2,010,000.

00:51:11.360 Wow, interesting.

00:51:13.200 Yeah, the world of cards is a different card.

00:51:15.160 I don't know if you saw what a guy named Beeple just did last week when he sold an NFT.

00:51:20.260 Are you familiar with NFT market or not really?

00:51:23.620 Okay, let me put it to you this way.

00:51:24.800 This guy is a graphic designer, okay?

00:51:27.440 He designs something new every day for 5,000 days, okay?

00:51:32.620 5,000 days.

00:51:33.720 He makes a collage of it.

00:51:35.480 You've not seen this.

00:51:36.280 I'm surprised you've not seen this.

00:51:38.020 He makes a collage of it, okay?

00:51:40.500 Collage of it, which means take the 5,000 pictures and you turn it into one collage.

00:51:45.720 Right.

00:51:45.980 He puts it on Christie's auction, which you may be familiar with Christie's auction.

00:51:50.480 It's the bigger auction.

00:51:51.720 They do the Van Goghs.

00:51:52.520 They do all the bigger stuff.

00:51:53.760 The auction starts on February 26th with the first bid at $100.

00:51:58.160 Tom, this is a blockchain art.

00:52:01.500 You can't put it up on the wall.

00:52:02.740 It's a picture that you keep crypto, right?

00:52:05.100 Type of a crypto type of thing.

00:52:06.300 They call it non-fungible tokens.

00:52:09.020 Started at $100 February 26th.

00:52:11.200 It sold on March 11th for what do you think?

00:52:15.180 Tell me.

00:52:16.160 I just want you to actually guess.

00:52:17.840 I really want you to guess.

00:52:19.060 Give a big number.

00:52:23.200 I'm going to-

00:52:24.260 12 million.

00:52:25.400 Okay.

00:52:25.840 You ready?

00:52:26.660 I'm going to show it to you just to see your reaction.

00:52:29.560 Okay.

00:52:30.340 It sold.

00:52:31.720 Tom, this is crazy stuff.

00:52:33.380 I had a conversation with this guy yesterday.

00:52:35.480 Here's what it sold for.

00:52:37.040 You ready?

00:52:39.320 Wow.

00:52:40.520 $69 million.

00:52:41.400 Wow.

00:52:42.680 We are living in a very different era today.

00:52:45.160 Who bought it?

00:52:46.440 A guy named Meta, Meta Coven, Meta something.

00:52:50.240 A guy that's a fan of his content and what he creates.

00:52:53.940 Now, you got to realize this guy named Mike Winkleman is known in the market.

00:52:57.320 He's phenomenal at what he does.

00:52:59.280 I hope so.

00:52:59.600 But he, you know, to sell an art that you can't hang up anywhere, and if anybody else

00:53:07.940 shares it, you don't make residuals on it.

00:53:10.180 You just get to say you own that token for $69 million.

00:53:14.420 Crazy.

00:53:15.640 Yeah.

00:53:16.080 So, but for yourself, you went from that into a complete different business yourself,

00:53:21.100 right?

00:53:21.320 You've been doing-

00:53:22.100 Why don't you tell everybody what you're doing?

00:53:23.520 I know it's a pretty good-sized industry, and you guys have been able to get the accounts

00:53:26.520 for the MBA.

00:53:27.880 I think, what is it, NBA, MLS, and the Dodgers?

00:53:32.520 Is that what you have?

00:53:33.920 Yeah, so this is a company called Co-Protect, where we're doing branded disposable face masks

00:53:40.400 and other PPE, so we took the boring blue medical mask and commercialized it with all

00:53:46.880 sorts of fashion on a disposable mask, and yeah, the signature stuff in sports is big.

00:53:52.600 We're doing all of March Madness, so when you watch any of the games in the tournament

00:53:57.540 this month, you're going to see all, there's 750,000 masks out there that we did with all

00:54:03.080 sorts of different designs.

00:54:04.860 The NBA, Major League Baseball, Major League Soccer, Team USA, we've got some big news coming

00:54:13.220 in global football, you know, go down the list, a bunch of PGA tour events, a number of big

00:54:20.460 colleges, all that sort of stuff, so we're just dominant in sports.

00:54:24.540 We're the leaders in branded protective equipment.

00:54:29.660 You know, 2020 was a $72 billion industry.

00:54:32.680 Yeah, it's a pretty big industry you're a part of.

00:54:35.480 Well, Tom, it's been a blast talking to you, appreciate you for coming on, obviously a different

00:54:39.920 direction of a conversation, but a lot to learn about the business side of the NBA and how

00:54:45.780 a person like you went from working with your dad as an attorney to going to an agent in

00:54:52.660 Europe, and then from there going to working with Vancouver, Memphis, and then a bunch of

00:54:58.140 different experiences in ESPN, and then MLS, and now doing what you're doing.

00:55:02.940 Yeah, cool.

00:55:03.720 Well, great.

00:55:04.500 Enjoyed it.

00:55:05.680 Congrats on all your success.

00:55:07.200 Are you going to sell any cards later today?

00:55:09.340 I'm going to probably sell a lot of cards, and I'll tell you about it.

00:55:11.740 If you want to buy a couple, I got a few if you want to buy some.

00:55:14.440 No, we should talk.

00:55:15.320 Maybe we'll go in on one or something.

00:55:16.880 I look forward to it.

00:55:17.840 We should.

00:55:18.420 We should.

00:55:19.240 Tom, good talking, buddy.

00:55:20.260 Take care.

00:55:20.800 Bye-bye.

00:55:21.580 Bye-bye.

00:55:21.860 For those of you guys that watched the entire interview, I don't know if you know this

00:55:24.580 or not, everything we talked about in this interview has to do with business, whether

00:55:28.120 it's recruiting, who you get first, timing, sequencing, money, dollar negotiation, career

00:55:34.120 path, what direction you go to, people you meet, and how you go from being a guy, working

00:55:39.020 under your father, eventually becoming a president of LAFC, that Magic Johnson's involved,

00:55:43.020 welfare, all these people are involved.

00:55:45.680 So I hope you stuck around for the entire thing, and if you enjoyed this interview, and you learned

00:55:50.040 a lot from the business of the NBA, you're going to enjoy my interview I did with Stephen

00:55:54.080 A. Smith last year.

00:55:55.820 If you've not watched it, click over here to watch the interview with Stephen A. I think

00:55:59.640 if you like this one, you will get a kick out of that as well.

00:56:02.040 Take care, everybody.

00:56:02.600 Bye-bye.

00:56:02.920 Bye-bye.

Valuetainment - March 31, 2021

Inside the Multi-Billion Dollar Sports Industry

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