00:03:14.260I mean, especially coming out of the 70s.
00:03:16.340And if you needed to get a job, I wasn't going to college to experience anything other than getting some piece of paper that would land me a job.
00:03:27.720And at the time, being an accountant was a way to do it.
00:03:53.140And I needed to get out and do something else.
00:03:56.400So being whatever, you know, sticking with it, stuck with it for three, four years.
00:04:01.580And at the time, the FBI was looking at and hiring a lot of accountants, a lot more than usual because of the savings and loan crisis in the late 80s.
00:04:10.880And I had some friends who had kind of left, joined, went into the FBI.
00:05:27.400Well, you know, and the other thing, I mean, frankly, growing up around DC, which I did, government employees didn't have a great reputation.
00:05:35.760So going that direction was, was completely against my parents' wishes and, and some others.
00:05:41.960So, but you're right, accidental, just, just happened to, happened to be lucky and, and watch, watch the bank robbery happen once.
00:06:08.160And, and we'll come back to McDonald's because, you know, we're McMillians.
00:06:10.660I want to talk about that, but I'm glad you asked about, you know, about the, the image and then and now.
00:06:17.300And like, like any business, the FBI is a brand and an image.
00:06:23.480And we, when I started and throughout my career, we relied on that image to get access, to get somebody to talk to you, to knock on a door and you're standing there in a suit.
00:06:37.540And you, people are going to tell you things because they believe, rightly or wrongly, they believe in the, the professionalism of the agency, the trust, the, the things like that.
00:06:54.340This, and, and, and, you know, I'm not going to, I'm not going to dive into, you know, who's right, who's wrong, Comey, McCabe, all that jazz.
00:07:01.900It's, it's, it's, it's a, it's a damn shame.
00:07:04.760It has tarnished the reputation and the brand that's going to take, you know, it's going to take years to overcome it.
00:07:11.820And, you know, well, I will, I will kind of dive into it a little bit.
00:07:15.480But every time the Bureau has had a, a significant national embarrassment or a problem like this, not every time, but, but most of them, if you go back and look, most often it has happened when higher ups at headquarters who are in, in the ivory tower of headquarters and believe they still can work cases and believe that they're smarter than everybody else.
00:07:42.120Nelson, maybe, maybe they are, but, you know, smart is only part of the, part of the equation to get, get a case done.
00:07:50.080Every one of those, or almost every one of those has been the result of headquarters taking over control and trying to run a case.
00:07:57.940And that's, you know, that's what went on with, with, with, with not so much, well, Comey was the director, but McCabe, Strzok, and all that.
00:08:06.680And, you know, plenty of, plenty of agents have a lot more intimate knowledge about that than I do, but that's the, that's kind of the big thing.
00:08:14.320And, and, you know, the reputation, like I said, it's, it's like a business.
00:08:19.060It's critical to have a good reputation.
00:08:25.440I hope so as well, because yesterday, just yesterday, and I know this isn't you, former CIA officer charged with spying for China, CIA, that's yesterday.
00:08:36.260And then 38 minutes ago, former FBI attorney pleads guilty in Durham probe.
00:08:44.720The Justice of Obama, unusual providence, you know, investigation links between Trump campaign and Russia netted its first guilty plea Wednesday as former FBI attorney Kevin Kleinsmith admitted to altering an email used to seek surveillance warrants against former Trump campaign advisor Carter Page.
00:08:59.980I mean, this is some ugly stuff going on in these agencies.
00:09:03.860What do you think they need to do to recover from this and gain the credibility again?
00:09:11.100I mean, it's just, it's, it's, it's stay the hell out of, stay the hell out of national scandals.
00:09:17.080Highlight the good work, the great, I mean, that's what we try to do with McMillions.
00:09:20.040And, you know, I know we'll keep coming back to that, but I think one of the, one of the focuses of McMillions was to highlight a case that was a success and, and, and that the agents involved weren't, you know, weren't egotistical assholes and, and, and, and things work the way they should.
00:10:07.320I mean, these, the, these, the case, the CIA case yesterday, this one today, it's almost, it's almost every, you know, every week we have one of these.
00:10:18.780I mean, you know, you got 90, I, you know, I heard you say on one of your, you know, your recent, your recent talks that, you know, the bad cops are 1%, 99% are good people.
00:10:31.040Well, that 1% impacts dramatically the other 99% who are trying to do and generally do the right thing.
00:11:12.620The badge and the gun does something to you.
00:11:14.280So, you know, I hope there is a resolution to do something because I do think there is a need for these organizations out there to do what they're doing.
00:11:23.040I just don't think there's any need for manipulation, which is what's happened a little bit lately.
00:11:40.980You've been deployed to Egypt and later chosen to open the first, I believe, FBI office in Milan, Italy, handling FBI operations there for three years, which I'm sure you had a good time in Italy.
00:11:51.320You conducted dozens of interviews with detained al-Qaeda and Taliban leaders and operatives, which maybe we'll get to that here in a minute.
00:11:59.960But out of all these crazy things you've done, I think we have to talk about McDonald's first.
00:12:04.160For whatever reason, that one's getting the most attention.
00:12:07.240So this phone call comes in from the informant to kind of walk us through what really happened.
00:12:19.160Walk us through with what happened there.
00:12:20.900Yeah, so you're right, and ultimately it was an agency, a marketing agency, but we didn't know that at the time, nor do we know the name of the person who was doing this crime.
00:12:34.460So you got to, let's just kind of put it in perspective here.
00:12:38.020I've got a squad of 10, 12 agents, and we work in high-priority white-collar stuff, which is police corruption and healthcare fraud, which was a big, big, big problem back then.
00:12:49.240We get a call from an informant to one of the guys on my squad and says, guess what, McDonald's Monopoly games are corrupted.
00:12:59.460There's a guy named Uncle Jerry who's arranging for winners and stealing the pieces and has been going on forever.
00:13:07.180So easy enough to say, all right, well, what's this guy's motive?
00:13:13.080I mean, what's, you know, this is kind of ridiculous.
00:13:48.100A lot of just, and, you know, we can, we can talk about, you know, traditional police work, but a lot of, or investigative work, a lot of just nose to the grindstone investigative work that went on for a couple of months, looking at phone records, making the connections, doing the charts, et cetera.
00:14:07.160However, we came to a point where we had to make a decision to contact McDonald's and bring them in, not knowing a whole lot of details, not knowing if McDonald's is involved, if somebody on their staff's involved, et cetera.
00:14:25.100The reason we had to bring them in, the main reason, there was a lot of reasons, but we needed to get, you know, we needed to get lists of winners.
00:14:32.100We needed their cooperation, and ultimately, we wanted to go up on a wiretap, a title-free wiretap.
00:14:38.320Well, if you think about it, the games are historical.
00:14:43.040So somebody's won, they've claimed their prize, and it's over.
00:14:46.940There's nothing, there's nothing going on anymore.
00:14:50.220By that time, we had, we had made some connections through phone records between winners, between what I call middlemen, and a main guy named Jerry Jacobson, who, you know, you mentioned earlier,
00:15:27.900We want McDonald's to run the game again.
00:15:32.500But for them to run it, you know, why is the FBI telling you, hey, we need you to run this game, and we need to be talking to you when you're running the game?
00:15:42.160In the context of that, they know there's a problem.
00:15:46.280So if you're, you know, if you're a risk management person or an executive at McDonald's, you are now confronted with what I, you know, I think it's a horrible decision.
00:15:58.540It's like the least, what's the least worst answer?
00:16:01.920Do we tell the FBI, you know, no way, take a hike, we can't stomach this risk?
00:16:08.100Knowing that the case is probably not going to go away, we may run with it anyway, and McDonald's gets named as they're not cooperating.
00:16:17.040Or we cooperate, and we get in bed with them, and we got to live with the consequences.
00:16:23.500And they did the latter, thankfully, and to their credit, because they paid, you know, they paid the consequences later on with public relations, with lawsuits, et cetera.
00:16:35.540But we couldn't have done this without McDonald's.
00:16:39.600You know, I said in the show, I think we expected an immediate answer.
00:17:10.280Now I see, you know, working in the corporate world, I see exact, that was a massive decision that went all the way up to their CEO,
00:17:18.480who, again, I think made the right decision.
00:17:22.340We went up on a wiretap, recorded incredible phone calls, tied it all together.
00:17:28.340We did some undercover work, which I'll get into in a minute.
00:17:31.760But we were even able to tell McDonald's before the last winner, the winner that claimed it during the game they were running,
00:17:42.520knowing it was compromised, we were able to tell McDonald's, you're going to get a call from a guy named Brown in Texas,
00:17:48.280who's going to claim to be the winner a couple days before he did.
00:17:52.280We knew that because we were listening on phone calls.
00:17:54.420And we heard, we heard the passage, we actually were able to surveil the passage of the stolen piece.
00:18:01.760That's how it, you know, that's, Jacobson was, and I won't get into all the details, but, you know,
00:18:06.600Jacobson had figured out a way to essentially shoplift the winning piece in route where he was going to theoretically place it into circulation.
00:18:15.480And he would, he would switch them out, put a, you know, a shitty one for French fries and where the winning one was supposed to be,
00:18:22.320hang on to the winning one, and then take, recruit one of his middlemen to find a winner who could be trusted,
00:20:20.060They were rolling up indictments and ultimately, you know, ultimately a lot more indictments.
00:20:24.760But we all know what happened on September 11th and that, you know, that freaking change, that changed everything.
00:20:31.220And the, the, the, the dozens of agents who were working this went down to the two guys who had to carry it through in the prosecutor.
00:20:39.840And no one, no one heard the story until two, three years ago, I got contacted by James Hernandez, who was one of the executive producers of McMillions.
00:20:49.560And he had, he had kind of stumbled on the story and started doing some research and felt it was a great, great story.
00:20:56.900I thought personally, I was glad to talk about it because it was always, you know, it was always one of these stories you would tell at a cocktail hour or something.
00:21:58.600Boy, that's a great, that's a great question.
00:22:00.920There, there's about four or five things.
00:22:02.480Um, they, you know, if you watch it, there was, so, so there was, there was, there was a lot of Jerry's running around.
00:22:11.480So we had two uncle, we, they kept talking about uncle Jerry and there was a guy named Jerry Colombo, you know, big, heavy Italian guy who was married to Robin Colombo.
00:22:19.520And if you watch the, if you watch McMillions, she is, she's a character.
00:22:23.180I mean, she's, you know, you just got to see, I can't even describe her.
00:22:36.680Well, we, we eventually figured out that there was Jerry Colombo and then it was Jerry Jacobson and they met through what we believe, you know, some, some organized crime connection.
00:22:47.920Jerry Colombo died, um, and, and a car crash and there's some suspicious circumstances about that.
00:22:54.500But they, they, they, and when I say they, I mean, James and Brian are producers and their, their research team, they got in and they, they dug up archive video about how Jerry Colombo was running a strip joint up in South Carolina, that he was all over the news that it had been, it was, they're going to close it down.
00:23:16.200He was, he was going around and around with city council and he kind of, he renamed it as a church.
00:23:20.640So it was the church of the, the fuzzy bunny or something like that.
00:23:25.620That was, that was just these like little things that, you know, you know what, frankly, Pat, I'm glad we didn't stumble on that stuff during the case because it would have diverted us.
00:23:38.100We would have, we would have been spending too much time.
00:23:40.060Well, someone's got to go, Hey, somebody's got to drive up to South Carolina and check out this fuzzy bunny thing.
00:23:44.820And we'd have never got to the finish line.
00:24:12.720That was, you know, that was another thing that they, that they dug up.
00:24:15.760Now, Jacobson, Jacobson, the main guy kept a low profile.
00:24:18.900And if you, if you, you know, if you watch it or I'm sure the listeners watched it, remember he, Jacobson was a former cop from South Florida and, you know, went out on some, on some quote unquote disability, moved up to Atlanta.
00:24:36.400But he kept, he kept a pretty low profile up there.
00:24:39.000Like, um, the other one, the Jerry Colombo was all over, you know, he was all over the media.
00:24:45.520Now, where is the connection with a Mormon?
00:24:47.440I saw, I heard something about the Mormon connection to this.
00:24:49.880What does that have to do with McDonald's?
00:24:51.260So, so Dwight Baker, who was one of Jacobson's main, we call them middlemen or recruiters.
00:24:58.980So when you put this thing and we would put it on a chart and in the middle, you've got Jacobson and you have lines going out to the, the recruiters and the middlemen.
00:25:08.200And because Jacobson never, he never dealt directly with the winners.
00:25:12.180Obviously that's, you know, if you're a drug dealer, you're the main kingpin.
00:25:15.700You don't want to deal with a guy on the street.
00:25:17.440You want people in the middle to distance yourself.
00:25:19.460So Baker was one of the, one of the, the most, the most recent, let's say at the time, recruiters, middlemen happened to live very close to, you know, to, to, uh, Jacobson in South Carolina.
00:25:34.880Uh, they were, you know, of all places, fair play.
00:25:37.800That was the name of the, that was the name of the town they lived in.
00:25:40.240I mean, you couldn't make this shit up.
00:25:41.680I mean, we just kept stumbling on how, how, how in the world, what's the chances of the, the main subjects of this scam that's all about honesty and integrity living in a town called fair play, South Carolina.
00:25:55.920But, um, but I digress, but yeah, but he was, he was, uh, an elder in the Mormon church and, uh, I think was, you know, ended up, I'm not sure, you know, you would get excommunicated or, or something.
00:26:08.660He's in, you know, he's in the, um, you know, he's in the McMillions film, you know, I, Hey, I will say, you know, this is, I, I, I said, when I got on this, I said, I'm going to, you know, I'm going to be as candid and give my opinions, uh, freely.
00:26:21.760Um, there was a couple of guys in that Dwight Baker's one and the other one, George Chandler, who was his, I think his adopted son.
00:26:30.980George Chandler was a winner and Dwight Baker gave him the million dollar piece.
00:26:35.760Neither of these guys needed the money.
00:26:38.040First of all, if you listen to them, they, they are in this and it's, they really are working hard to make themselves seem, um, you know, sympathetic, honorable, um, not quite innocent, but pretty damn close to it.
00:26:57.960I, I, you know, I got no room for that.
00:27:00.880Um, you know, these guys knew what they were doing.
00:27:03.600If nothing else, they might not have known.
00:27:06.600And this goes, this goes true for any of the winners.
00:27:08.880They might not have known that there was a Jerry Jacobson up there who was stealing the pieces and this is who he works and blah, blah, blah.
00:27:15.740Most of them got stories that, Hey, I got a friend who got this piece and he's going through a bad divorce and the wife can't know about it.
00:27:22.700So you take it, you claim it and, you know, you get to, you get a hundred thousand and, you know, give us the rest of my, well, this, okay.
00:27:30.400That's, you know, you're screwing somebody in that deal.
00:27:33.740You're screwing the ex wife or somebody.
00:27:35.620So, so this bit about, you know, all this was all, you know, this was all on the up and up.
00:27:42.720The, there was a woman and she's in the, um, she's in the series, Gloria Brown, uh, African-American lady in Jacksonville was friends of Robin Colombo.
00:31:21.660It was myself and a local pastor in LA.
00:31:25.040We were pretty much using the same guy.
00:31:27.140And they had this machine that they were doing that was liking pictures.
00:31:30.840And all of a sudden the hashtags they had that was liking pictures, here's a pastor getting a criticism for liking pictures of nude women and men and weird, random things.
00:32:37.340But one of the things, and I thought about this listening to Gravano, and I thought about this, too, in terms of interviewing some, you know, some like Al-Qaeda leader types.
00:32:47.680And that is, had these guys wound up working for, you know, Lake Mason or a big firm or a company, you know, AT&T, they would have rose to the top in those organizations as leaders because they're, that's how they are.
00:33:05.180They're brilliant, engaging, smart people who just have a natural tendency to lead, whether it's, you know, whether you're in Al-Qaeda or you're in La Costa Nostra or, you know, on the good side of the law, the CEO of a company.
00:33:23.180That was always, you know, I came away a few times from interviews like that thinking, you know, wow, that guy, you know, it's a damn shame.
00:33:31.960It's a damn shame he wound up, you know, wound up where he's at now because, you know, a couple of good breaks, he very easily would have, you know, could have led, you know, Saudi Aramco or something.
00:33:46.320Can you give me, give me, give me a, okay, go to the person that you think about without giving a name and what was impressive about him when he sat down with them?
00:33:53.180I think just, not, not just, not just his history, but the fortitude in terms of overcoming hardships, like bad, bad hardships, bad treatment, keeping, you know, maybe, maybe keeping some degree of sanity, engaging, very, you know, very astute to
00:34:19.380Where we were coming from, questions, funny, sense of humor at times, which, you know, counts for a lot.
00:34:30.200Um, yeah, no, I, I just, you could just tell, and I think, I think you notice this with like a Gravano or these guys, guys who, who, who rose to the top of an organization that a lot of people get killed along the way, rising to the top.
00:34:45.920If you're stupid, bad things happen to you or you, or you get, you get ostracized, same thing.
00:34:51.600Um, so when you interview these guys, were you on their turf or were they on our turf?
00:35:07.100I've, I've had the, I've had the, you know, the, the pleasure to do, or pleasure, the, the, whatever you want to call it, the, the opportunity to do a little, little of both, little of both.
00:35:43.420So like what, you know, what kind of, you know, I'm, I'm conscious and cautious enough about what I watch to know that, you know, certain things are stressful to watch and taxing and don't, don't add to learning.
00:36:20.140And, you know, we've, we've lived that and, and continue to live it.
00:36:24.440So, and, and, and by watch, you know, I'm talking about not just TV, but social media.
00:36:30.420So, you know, I think some of, you know, some, some video footage where you're getting part of the story or it's being spun a certain way.
00:36:38.560Um, I, I, I'm cautious about, about that.
00:36:42.580And, and, and, you know, I, I think you brought it up on, on one of your earlier talks.
00:36:47.220You got to consider who's, you know, the motives of people behind this.
00:36:51.240So I think you, you said, you know, is, isn't, doesn't it make sense that China benefits or Russia benefits or the Middle East benefits from the, the, the scenes of chaos in the street?
00:37:04.580I, you know, Hey, it's going on and that's unfortunate, but riling, riling people up in an emotional state by watching it on a, on a, on a screen hundreds of miles away doesn't really, doesn't really help the problem.
00:37:19.480And it's certain, and I'm, I, Hey, I'm selfish.
00:37:20.960I'm always looking out for, you know, my wellbeing and it doesn't do me any good to, to walk out of the room with high blood pressure costs is something I, you know, something I saw.
00:37:30.300So, um, makes sense as an FBI agent yourself, what are your thoughts about the sole defunding police situation where, you know, you're, you're getting commissioners that are resigning and you're getting Patrick J.
00:37:41.580Lynch, president of the New York union is coming out and saying for the first time ever, we're coming out publicly and saying we're supporting Trump.
00:37:47.820And it's, it's a very weird dynamic where, you know, some are being criticized.
00:37:52.040Some, you know, Seattle is just deciding to fully defund and go a complete different direction.
00:37:56.380What do you think about what's going on there?
00:38:01.760Obviously, obviously blanket calls to defund the police are, you know, a reactionary.
00:38:07.400I mean, do we want, do we want New York to return to the way it was in 1974?
00:38:13.500No, I don't, I, you know, I don't think anybody, anybody would agree with that.
00:38:16.920Um, you know, I think changes have, changes probably need to be made.
00:38:25.340Um, here, here's where I'll go with this.
00:38:28.080And, and I made some notes to talk about it.
00:38:32.580One of the things, let me, let me kind of go back and I'll tell you, I'll tell you kind of the, where I'm going with this.
00:38:37.520Um, so 2015, we had the tragic shooting in San Bernardino, uh, at the, uh, it was like a community center.
00:38:46.020Guy was, you know, guy was a terrorist and, you know, we, we, you know, they had been, him and his wife had been back and forth to Pakistan a few times.
00:39:35.580I ran, I ran a, I ran a, a JTTF, a joint terrorism task force, uh, for, you know, last, last 50, whatever, 10, 12 years of my career.
00:39:45.180And the thing that's missing in, in, in that image of the San Bernardino is you've got all these guys and millions of dollars of equipment thrown at something that having them all out there after the fact isn't, doesn't prevent it.
00:40:03.640What would, what would have prevented it?
00:40:05.260You got to ask yourself, how would, where could we have spent those resources to potentially prevent that?
00:40:12.500And it's not, you know, it's not, and I was a SWAT guy.
00:40:38.340And I understand, I understand the need, but, but looking at it from.
00:40:42.500A law enforcement executive or a manager, all those millions of dollars for sexy and fancy equipment, wouldn't it have been better to go into the salaries and, and, and of analysts and software and, you know, the intelligence work, paying informants, all that stuff that is not sexy.
00:41:12.180You don't even know you've prevented them.
00:41:13.720And I know, I, I, I know we've done that just, just by having a presence, interviewing somebody through some intelligence.
00:41:21.240So this goes to my point, the broader point, which we see today, and that's this, you hear this concept, it's, it's kind of coming to vogue lately.
00:41:31.080Um, and I, I'd like to think I, you know, I was one of the pioneers of thinking about it.
00:41:36.460Not that I, not that I raised my voice about it, but this, this militarization of police and, you know, and, and you see it now where you've got, um, it drives a wedge in, in a community where you have what looks to be an occupying military force.
00:41:53.680Now, no doubt about it, you need to have, you need to have SWAT teams here and there in big cities, deal with an active shooter, et cetera.
00:42:02.680But, and, and, and, and so the question is, how did we get here?
00:42:06.440How did, how did, how did we get to where every small town police department has an armored vehicle and a team with long guns and maybe a helicopter and all kinds of other, again, you know, fancy tactical stuff.
00:42:20.880And, and, and, and I can't take credit for this is coming from a guy named Radley Balco who wrote a book.
00:42:27.260It's called, you know, the rise of the warrior cop.
00:42:29.220And he points to the, the, the funding to, to, to sources, military surplus stuff under a program was like 1033 program where local state, local law enforcements can go to the military and say, Hey, we need an armored vehicle.
00:42:50.160So now they've got an armored vehicle, they might get other stuff.
00:42:52.840And then post 9-11, you know, DHS funding grants to have this kind of preparation.
00:43:00.200And if you're, you're given the choice, you're running a small police department and you've got, you know, you might be a sheriff or something and you've got voters, you're trying to impress city council.
00:43:11.180You're going to spend that money on a fancy team that can repel out of helicopters, even though you're never going to use them.
00:43:16.720Or I'm going to hire, you know, I'm going to hire three kids with PhDs in computer science and analytical intelligence to grind through records.
00:43:29.400Or I'm going to hire, you know, I'm going to hire investigators or agents who are adept at working informants, who might have the language, who, who can get into these groups.
00:43:40.800That's where I think we've got to, we've got, we've reached that point.
00:43:44.300And, you know, and to my broader point, I think that those images of fully armed police departments have, have been, you know, they've been counterproductive.
00:43:55.520They fuel the, they fuel the narrative of defunding the police.
00:44:00.460So by the way, I like what you're saying.
00:44:01.620A lot of people are not going to agree with me, but that's.
00:45:53.700And we're not going to say or do anything because that's just not what we do.
00:45:59.340That, you know, how do you break that?
00:46:01.920Well, and I'm not, I'm not holding the FBI up as an example, but within the FBI, if you are aware
00:46:09.860of misconduct by somebody or, you know, they violated some policy procedure, you know, they're, they're, they're violated computer thing or they're, or they're acting out.
00:46:24.040And it, it blows up into an issue, a disciplinary issue or something like that.
00:46:30.060And, and, and they, they, the investigation, the internal determines that, hey, Chris Graham, you know, you knew, you know, you knew that Pat had a habit of, of, of really yelling at people.
00:46:45.060And, and, and he hit this person once on the back of the head during an interview.
00:46:49.080You were there, you know, that's against policy.
00:46:54.920You're in just as much, you're not, maybe not as much trouble, but now your career is on the line.
00:46:59.360And I think some police departments have variations of that, but, but you've got to make it so, and you, you take the personality out of it.
00:47:06.840So if, if, you know, I could say to, you know, to you, all right, hey, hey, Pat, you know, I had to tell them what I saw.
00:47:18.200I don't have, you know, but I got to look out for my career.
00:47:21.540I can't, you know, I got a family to feed.
00:47:25.040But then you're a snitch if you do that, right?
00:47:27.040Well, I know, but you got to take it out of that.
00:47:29.480You've got to make it, hey, I didn't want to be a, I didn't want to, you call me a snitch.
00:47:32.860I didn't, the agency, the same agency we both work for, the same agency that pays our salary, put these requirements on me just like they put them on you.
00:47:43.500If you saw something, I expect you to say about me.
00:47:48.560You know how you see these movies and in the movies they show a bad cop, two bad cops and a good cop.
00:47:54.980The two bad cops go and rob a guy of cocaine and $200,000 of cash and they decide to split it.
00:48:01.160And the third guy doesn't want to take it.
00:48:02.980He's like, dude, I don't want to have anything to do with this.
00:48:05.460You almost see the other two guys doing whatever they can to put this guy out.
00:48:10.060And they're worried about him being a snitch and his career is pretty much done.
00:48:13.080So there's the pressure of almost not accepting, now this is Hollywood, so I'm not in the world to know what happens.
00:48:19.420It almost seems like there's pressure for the good cop to also participate in the bad behavior.
00:48:25.480Because if you don't, they can end up, you know, turning on you and you got a reputation coming back.
00:48:31.940So I guess what I'm trying to ask here is, so we have Derek Chauvin, right?
00:48:35.580The guy who put the knee on George's neck for eight minutes and 46 seconds.
00:48:40.500What do you do to see these trends and say, listen, because I'm telling you, when I'm telling you, this friend of mine was the calmest guy.
00:50:21.780I'd hopefully like to think he's just the anomaly and that, you know, I mean –
00:50:26.520So, what you're saying – so, based on what you're saying, you're making me think that a lot of the part of having a Derek Chauvin is in the hiring process and in the background shape.
00:51:08.700What are some of the questions that would give you a good scoring on your end to say predictive analytics?
00:51:13.500Why this is – this guy, we can't hire this guy.
00:51:15.220This guy's a little bit of a loose cannon.
00:51:17.280You know, I've watched some of your interviews, and you probably should have been an FBI agent because you do a great job of two things, right?
00:52:12.460I mean, your friend's a classic example.
00:52:14.760I mean, something must have happened on the job or there was something latent in there.
00:52:18.920I think many of these – you know, many of these guys, there was always clues.
00:52:23.360It's just like, you know, it's like when somebody turns out to be a pedophile or, you know, or something, you know, somebody shoots something up.
00:52:30.640People come out, oh, well, yeah, there was always something a little – you know, if you really press it, there was something about that guy.
00:52:37.000I think with a lot of these cops who really go bad, there – it was always something there.
00:52:42.880Now, that said, I've had a couple – I've had friends, and the job changes them.
00:52:46.900There's no doubt about that, that, you know, you work in a – you know, you work in a difficult environment where the community does not like you, and you are a sign of bad things.
00:52:58.500I mean, when – you know, shit, I get nervous now.
00:53:01.600I get nervous when I get pulled over, and I got no reason to.
00:53:44.540Can your model of – you know how teachers after 10 years, you know, they can't get fired, and, you know, you have to, like, really – a 42-year-old teacher has to, you know, make a pass at a 16-year-old boy or girl to get fired.
00:54:00.140Well, a lot of the PDs, remember, are union.
00:54:02.620So, the rank and file patrol officers are – have union protections.
00:54:07.460So, that's effectively, you know, the same as tenure.
00:54:12.360So, that – first of all, this then – this brings up the negative power of union and negative effects of union because, for me, like, I look at some teachers.
00:54:24.440Okay, you see these videos of some teachers that have a terrible attitude towards kids, but there's nothing you can do about them.
00:54:30.080You can't fire them because they have tenure.
00:54:32.140I think one of the best things that there is in business is there is no tenure.
00:54:37.320If you're in a company, you screw up in your 12th year, you can get fired, you know.
00:54:45.820I can be fired as a CEO, and I think that element of not having to fear, cops, teachers, fire – you know, FBI agents, not having that fear of, dude, if I screw up, I could get fired.
00:55:00.660I can go around and push people around.
00:55:03.560The way it's also set up and the comp structure and the way it's set up with the protection for them, I also think – there's an element of it where, for me, it's kind of like nowadays.
00:55:14.420You know, cops are going around working with criminals, and they're doing their job.
00:55:20.160Some cases, they're doing their job, and they're the ones constantly being held accountable rather than the other way around.
00:55:25.880So there's a fear of, dude, I don't even want to do anything because they're going to say racism, and I'm going to get arrested.
00:55:30.640But I think there's also the other part where the way the format is set up with accountability, a lot of these guys, cops, are, you know, not worried about somebody holding them accountable.
00:56:13.860Guys I know who are, you know, a good friend of mine, NYPD detectives, Washington, D.C.
00:56:19.260They will tell you that is a venue for trouble for a law enforcement officer is those kind of nightclubs because, you know, first of all, you're getting paid.
00:56:31.220You're usually getting paid pretty good to sit outside in your patrol car or stand at the door.
00:56:35.840There's – you know, you find me a club like that where there's not some illegal activity going on, where there's not some drug dealing and some prostitution going on.
00:56:44.180You got to look the other way, and it is an environment that, you know, that sucks people in, you know, if it's an adult entertainment, you know, if it's a strip joint, there's, you know, there's young strippers around, guys get tangled up in there.
00:57:01.160So I just think – and, you know, maybe I'm wrong – I just wonder, you know, what kind of history did those two have back, you know, from back at that club?
00:57:10.100Was there a beef over, you know, over a drug deal?
00:57:14.640Was there a beef over, you know, some girl somebody was screwing?
00:57:19.700I don't know, but I just know from watching it firsthand and plenty of friends who are cops, nightclubs, strip clubs, those kind of places put a cop in a bad position.
00:57:34.260Final question, and before we wrap up, Chris, what's your biggest concern right now with the current climate we have in America?
00:57:38.880You know, here – I've used this before, and people ask me, hey, what do you think of – you know, what do you think of what's going on?
00:57:54.540And I say, if somebody asked you – and this is extreme, I get it, but if somebody asked you 20 years – now, if somebody asked you 10 years ago, what does revolution look like?
00:58:06.420What would revolution today look like to you?
00:58:09.600Name five things that would entail revolution.
00:58:13.560I mean, it's not like – you know, it's not like the Revolutionary War where they got the red coats and we're, you know, we're fighting it out over, you know, Bunker Hill or anything like that.
00:58:22.680You would have, you know, deep, deep racial divisions, rioting, looting protests, false information, narratives, media split down the middle, groups occupying zones and an unwillingness of authorities to either deal with them or an inability to deal with them.
00:58:42.320And my guess is, had somebody asked that – if I had asked somebody that question, you know, 10 years ago, they probably would have named a few of those things and maybe something else.
00:58:52.780And I'd say, well, now, what do we have?
00:58:56.160We have those – we have some or all of those things going on.
00:58:59.880It's pretty damn scary because, you know, revolution is a strong word.
00:59:10.340So I'm – there's part of me that's optimistic.
00:59:15.200I mean, you know, there's always the things are – things always seem to work out.
00:59:19.560But this just seems – this seems tough.
00:59:23.020You know, I think I've even had – personally, I've even had conversations with people who – and I'm not politically leaning big time one way or the other.
00:59:36.580I think I'm probably part of the big bell curve in the middle.
00:59:39.260But I am former law enforcement, and I, you know, I lean that way, where I've had conversations that have – my intent was to let's find a middle ground here.
00:59:53.560We can talk through this that have – I've walked away feeling pretty shitty about it because they went – they went – they didn't go well.
01:00:02.500That to me is – that's really concerning that, you know, that people who – family members even – that have, you know, bound by blood or been friends forever, that these conversations that they can't – you know, that people have conversations and people leave upset.
01:00:21.740That's – that's the – you – I just – I kind of worked my way into your answer there, the answer.
01:00:54.200It's the 10% of America right now that's going to elect either Biden and Kamala or Trump and Pence.
01:01:01.120And then that – tell me – tell me who you think that 10% is.
01:01:03.800Who are – you know – because I – I'm probably in there somewhere, I think.
01:01:07.720I think you're probably in there, based on what – I don't know you well, but based on what you're saying is you're probably a center-right person.
01:01:19.700But that 10%, you know, you got the entrepreneurs who may be socially left, but economically they're conservative, okay?
01:01:29.060So, they're going to be kind of sitting there saying, let's see what's going to be happening over here.
01:01:32.220You got the, you know, the baby boomers who may be socially conservative, but economically a little bit liberal because they need the Medicare, Medi-Cal.
01:01:45.760So, they may vote for somebody that's going to take care of their health insurance.
01:01:49.060So, that's a big audience with baby boomers, 76 million of them.
01:01:52.540You have, you know, the folks who don't follow any politics and could care less, but they're willing to vote, and they're just kind of going to vote, quite frankly, on the simplest thing, like who they like more.
01:02:06.740But that 10% is going to determine our next president.
01:02:08.920And that next president, the next four years, one is planning on taking capital gains to 15%, which is Trump.
01:02:17.000And the other one is going to plan on taking taxes to a whole different level at a higher level.
01:02:21.900So, economically, you know who that's going to hurt and who that's going to benefit.
01:02:24.340And one just said the other day to Cardi B that he wants to make college free for any family making less than $125,000 a year income for their kids, which that's 90% of them.
01:02:36.620And, I mean, taxes are going to be going up the way we're going.
01:02:40.160It's such a dramatically – like when Bill Clinton became president, I voted for him.
01:02:46.300He was the first president I shook hands with.