Valuetainment - October 27, 2021


Murder Detective Reveals Body Language Of A Murderer Moments After Killing Someone


Episode Stats


Length

48 minutes

Words per minute

188.98572

Word count

9,087

Sentence count

472

Harmful content

Misogyny

12

sentences flagged

Toxicity

53

sentences flagged

Hate speech

4

sentences flagged


Summary

Summaries generated with gmurro/bart-large-finetuned-filtered-spotify-podcast-summ .

In this episode of Valuetainment, I interview Paul Mallory, an ex-Murder Detective at the Essex Police Force. He talks about his career and how he became a detective. He also talks about the importance of being part of a murder squad and how important it is to have a solid support network.

Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
Misogyny classifications generated with MilaNLProc/bert-base-uncased-ear-misogyny .
Toxicity classifications generated with s-nlp/roberta_toxicity_classifier .
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
00:00:00.000 My guest today is an ex-murder detective.
00:00:02.160 He's been doing this for the last 30 years at Essex Police Force,
00:00:06.540 and he's experienced everything,
00:00:08.040 whether it's investigating countless criminal cases, horrific murders,
00:00:12.280 I mean, a lot of different things he's seen.
00:00:14.520 And I saw a couple of his interviews,
00:00:16.360 and his expertise is interviewing the person
00:00:19.460 that's being committed of the murder or the crime
00:00:22.140 to gather intel to see if this person's guilty or innocent,
00:00:26.040 or he needs to go gather more intel.
00:00:27.520 And I think there's a lot we can learn from that
00:00:30.720 in any career you're in, maybe even in your personal life.
00:00:33.820 So having said that, Paul, Mallory,
00:00:35.580 thank you so much for being a guest on Valuetainment.
00:00:38.040 Thank you very much for having me this afternoon.
00:00:40.020 So question for you.
00:00:41.180 When did you wake up and say, I want to be a murder detective?
00:00:45.620 Well, I come from a line of cops.
00:00:47.880 My dad was a cop.
00:00:48.820 My brother was a cop.
00:00:50.580 My uncles, my cousins, we're cops.
00:00:52.640 You know, we have the most boring Christmas dinners in the world.
00:00:55.920 What's it look like?
00:00:58.140 What do you guys do, tell stories to each other?
00:01:00.040 Oh, man, it's so boring as well.
00:01:02.420 You know, we call it swinging the blue lamp in this country.
00:01:06.300 And everybody knows everyone.
00:01:08.900 You know, I live in a county which is different to the states.
00:01:12.080 There's 1.7 million people live here.
00:01:14.640 We're next to London.
00:01:15.940 So the demographics are really, you know, very, very diverse.
00:01:20.820 However, within the police service, you've got 3,000 cops plus support staff.
00:01:26.240 And everyone knows everyone.
00:01:27.560 So my dad knew people.
00:01:29.120 When I first joined the police in 86, 87,
00:01:31.840 I was working with cops that my dad had joined with.
00:01:34.160 So I couldn't do anything without them knowing.
00:01:38.460 So as an example, March 31st, 1989, my first major investigation.
00:01:44.700 And I'll come back to when did I want to be a emergency force detective.
00:01:47.440 But my first major investigation, a bank manager had been kidnapped.
00:01:51.060 I'd just gone on to a plainclothes department as an assistant, a temporary detective.
00:01:58.440 And this bank manager had been kidnapped.
00:02:00.060 His family had been kidnapped.
00:02:01.240 And he's been taken to a bank to empty the vault.
00:02:03.920 And I walk into the office and the boss sits there and he says,
00:02:06.600 Mr. Maleri.
00:02:07.940 So I said, yes, sir.
00:02:09.380 He said, I know your father.
00:02:10.320 I said, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:02:11.580 He said, can you cook?
00:02:13.760 I said, yeah, I can cook.
00:02:15.080 He said, do you want to be on my team?
00:02:16.280 I said, yeah, I want to be on your team.
00:02:17.560 He said, well, then you can cook me breakfast for the whole team tomorrow.
00:02:21.060 So I had to cook big English breakfast, you know, sausage, egg, bacon, beans, the whole lot.
00:02:27.180 For the whole, that was part of my acceptance.
00:02:29.420 And there was 25 people there or thereabouts.
00:02:32.000 And I knew then to be part of a professional team.
00:02:35.520 Because to be on a murder squad, it's not about one person.
00:02:39.300 You watch all the glorification of how somebody solved the murder.
00:02:43.080 You know, this isn't 1890s.
00:02:45.820 This isn't Jack the Ripper.
00:02:46.820 This isn't Sherlock Holmes.
00:02:48.100 This is one team, but a team that's made up of so many different people.
00:02:52.820 Now, I don't know how that correlates in the U.S., but you can't do these things on your own in the U.K.
00:02:58.320 And I knew from that point onwards that all I wanted to deal with was major crime.
00:03:02.960 That was my life.
00:03:04.220 Now, let me ask you this.
00:03:05.420 So yesterday I'm interviewing a former sniper.
00:03:10.400 He had the longest shot.
00:03:11.760 And I think he's from Britain, by the way.
00:03:13.380 His name was Craig Harrison, I believe, right, yesterday's interview.
00:03:16.460 Craig Harrison.
00:03:17.840 And he had 80 confirmed kills.
00:03:21.180 And I've interviewed other snipers before.
00:03:23.140 And I was in the military before, so I've met snipers.
00:03:25.340 And they typically have a very similar DNA.
00:03:28.460 They're loners.
00:03:29.360 They're good being by themselves.
00:03:30.640 They're a little bit quiet.
00:03:31.680 Some people think they're shy, but they're very observant of what's going on around them.
00:03:36.020 So you can pretty much, you know, map out the patterns and the similarities between 10 different snipers, right?
00:03:44.500 Absolutely.
00:03:44.880 Did you notice a pattern with folks who are great murder detectives?
00:03:50.680 What similarities do you guys have?
00:03:53.840 I think if you've got an analytical mind and the ability to talk to people, then you can then start to fit in.
00:04:04.480 But you have to look at the minute detail.
00:04:08.680 You have to understand what actually matters.
00:04:10.740 You have to have a passion for knowledge.
00:04:13.940 And that's what the common denominator is for murder squad detectives, certainly in the UK.
00:04:20.100 I've worked with some of the finest, and I don't want to be blowing up their backside, but, you know, some of the finest detectives in the country.
00:04:28.440 And I've been privileged to do that.
00:04:29.820 And I've done some great jobs.
00:04:31.780 But we all come from the same, cut from the same cloth.
00:04:34.960 But the fact is, the reason we did it or do it or, you know, the reason why they're still doing it is because they want to find out why that person's been killed, why they want to bring the right person to justice.
00:04:47.300 They want to understand how we've got into this situation where there's a body in the mortuary and a post-mortem is going to take place.
00:04:54.380 They want to bring the closure about for the family.
00:04:56.440 And this is what it's all about.
00:04:57.560 It's about the focus on the family and how they can be dealt with and the service that they provide.
00:05:04.680 And I think that that's the biggest asset.
00:05:07.160 I want to go a little bit deeper.
00:05:08.520 I mean, I appreciate that, but I want to go a little bit deeper.
00:05:10.900 This is what I think, and correct me and say, no, that's irrelevant.
00:05:15.200 And if yes, tell me which one of these is the most valuable asset in your world, in your industry.
00:05:21.260 So the importance of gathering intel, which is researching to me.
00:05:28.560 You're good at researching.
00:05:29.600 So when you're sitting down with somebody, you've asked all the right questions from the right people.
00:05:32.500 You have intel.
00:05:33.000 Number two is human nature, knowing how to deal with the person you're talking to, where you lead to being trusting and somewhat understanding.
00:05:41.480 Maybe a little bit of levity to bring the guards down where they're willing to sit down and talk to you.
00:05:47.320 Maybe a bit of humility where you're not too cocky and arrogant because they shut down when you're too cocky and arrogant and you're pushing them too hard.
00:05:54.740 Which one of those, like, I want to know things like that.
00:05:57.820 What's the most valuable quality of the best person in your field?
00:06:01.320 The ability to communicate.
00:06:04.080 But communication is a two-way thing.
00:06:05.800 As well as using this, it's about using these.
00:06:08.480 So it's about talking and listening and being able to glean information as you go along and be dynamic in the way that you work.
00:06:18.280 You can't always, there's no prescription around, or menu around dealing with murders.
00:06:25.360 That said, there is a guidebook, which literally starts at point A and goes through to point Z.
00:06:35.020 But you have to be a free thinker, but you have to have that ability to communicate and engage.
00:06:41.720 Because if you can't engage with the suspects, with the families, with the, we have here, you have a DA's office, we have the Crown Prosecution Service.
00:06:52.620 If you can't engage, whether that be in an oral way or whether it be in a written way, you're not going to succeed.
00:06:59.700 And you've got no place in, you know, in that particular job because you need to be able to do that.
00:07:04.700 But at the lowest and at the highest level, because you will be dealing with the lower end of society in some cases.
00:07:14.140 But you'll also be going to the upper end of the market when you're dealing with some families, the judges.
00:07:20.040 I mean, the judges are very well esteemed in this country in the same way they are there.
00:07:24.160 They're not voted in here.
00:07:26.700 But, you know, you've got to be able to communicate.
00:07:29.680 And that's the greatest skill that murder squad detectives have.
00:07:33.100 Let's, you know, unpack that.
00:07:36.240 So, you're saying the lower end of society.
00:07:38.600 So, to be able to communicate with the lower end of society, give us a few approaches you've got to take that works and what doesn't work in communicating with the lower end of society.
00:07:47.160 Because I'm assuming these murderers, they don't have to really talk to you, right?
00:07:51.720 They don't have to tell you anything, right?
00:07:55.340 Do they have to tell you anything?
00:07:56.840 You have to figure out where to gather the intel from them, right?
00:07:59.060 But, you see, social deprivation is, you know, it's rife in your country.
00:08:03.820 It's rife in our country.
00:08:05.120 So, for instance, you've got an area that's particularly poor, somebody gets killed, and the residents do not want to engage.
00:08:17.400 They don't want to engage because they're seen as being police informants.
00:08:20.340 It's about the communication to bring them along with you and give them the appropriate reassurance that they're going to get that support.
00:08:27.780 Now, some people, we have a witness protection scheme here, same as you do in the U.S., some people need to go on that.
00:08:34.520 But, actually, it's around that community liaison and making sure that you're getting the right vibes across the community leaders, if you like.
00:08:42.820 And I think that that's particularly difficult at the moment in this country with some of the popular press.
00:08:49.120 The police are getting a really good, figuratively speaking, but they're getting a good kick at the moment from the media.
00:08:54.120 And it's about offering that public reassurance and that customer focus.
00:08:59.460 So, but that goes right across the board.
00:09:01.160 So, it could be, you know, a kid's died of a drug overdose.
00:09:04.380 They come from a poor background.
00:09:05.620 It's about making sure that the parents get the best service because people should not be written off just because of where they come from or what their social status.
00:09:14.100 You know, but popular society would write a lot of people off, and that is totally out of order.
00:09:20.320 That's so wrong.
00:09:20.960 But the police, I think they're very skilled in it, despite what is said prior to a lot of the media.
00:09:26.280 They're very skilled in what they do.
00:09:28.880 So, going back to it, lower end of society, when you're dealing with the lower end of society, and specifically, let's focus on a person that is being accused, charged with a murder, okay?
00:09:38.400 And if you're speaking to somebody who potentially just took someone's life, and they're qualified to be part of the lower end of society, what method of communication works with them, and what doesn't?
00:09:52.940 So, it's very difficult because in this country, in the same way as the States, they have the rights of silence.
00:10:00.180 So, to engage with somebody when they're sitting across the table, they've just killed somebody.
00:10:04.720 It was a, we dealt with a guy called Justin Chan.
00:10:07.280 He was the victim of a murder.
00:10:08.500 He'd been bullied, he'd been harangued, he'd gone through so many different things.
00:10:15.680 You weren't ever going to negotiate with his killer.
00:10:19.120 There wasn't a chance.
00:10:20.380 There wasn't.
00:10:20.780 You had to prove that 100% because he wasn't ever going to talk to us.
00:10:26.200 He, you know, he can maintain his right of silence, and the police have to, and the police should have to prove it as well, in the same way as anything.
00:10:34.720 You know, it should be, in this country, in the same way, it's beyond reasonable doubt.
00:10:38.980 You can't negotiate with something like that.
00:10:41.360 But there are other people that you've dealt, that I've dealt with, where, actually, they've got a conscience as to what they've done.
00:10:47.880 They've killed a partner.
00:10:48.900 So, I can't defend what they've done.
00:10:53.720 I can empathise through the situation they've gone through.
00:10:55.800 So, let me ask you a question now.
00:10:57.980 What do adults argue about?
00:11:00.420 As couples, what do adults argue about?
00:11:03.280 I'll tell you.
00:11:03.740 Money, family, kids, sex.
00:11:06.100 Exactly.
00:11:06.980 Okay.
00:11:07.260 Exactly. 0.99
00:11:08.080 So, when you're sitting across the table from somebody who has killed their husband because every night they've demanded rough sex with them, 0.87
00:11:17.660 they've beaten them about, that they've knocked the kids about, you can't sympathise with them,
00:11:22.400 but you can actually understand where they're coming from.
00:11:25.100 And if you can get that across and start to help them with the process, because they're going to jail.
00:11:31.480 Make no mistake.
00:11:32.340 And it could be that they go to jail for murder, they go to jail for manslaughter, as it is in this country.
00:11:36.980 So, if you can start to empathise and start to unpack what they've done, then that gives them a greater opportunity.
00:11:44.080 The lawyers wouldn't agree.
00:11:46.060 The lawyers are there to make them, you know, no comment, no comment, no comment.
00:11:49.680 They're not going to talk to us, but it's about the question set and the way that we've prepared ourselves in order to interview them.
00:11:55.700 And that's what you need to do.
00:11:59.180 What's your open-ended, so walk me through one.
00:12:01.840 Give me a story and walk me through what you opened up with.
00:12:04.520 What question did you, so give me the setting.
00:12:06.580 I'm sitting down with this guy who's being accused of X, Y, Z.
00:12:10.340 He's this age, he's this, he's that.
00:12:12.740 And here's how the conversation started about.
00:12:14.720 Give me an example.
00:12:15.620 So, Danielle Jones, she's still missing.
00:12:18.620 She went missing in June 2001.
00:12:20.500 Her body has never been found, okay?
00:12:23.060 Her uncle has been subsequently convicted, and he's still in jail.
00:12:26.340 He's been there 20 years.
00:12:27.440 He won't tell anybody where that murder is.
00:12:29.900 I was selected to interview him with a colleague.
00:12:34.980 And the opening gambit was, basically, this is your niece, Stuart.
00:12:41.580 This is your niece.
00:12:44.020 Tell us what's happened.
00:12:45.140 And you start to build into the relationship between him and his niece
00:12:51.520 and how, you know, have things gone wrong?
00:12:55.680 That's the only way you can do it.
00:12:57.400 You've got to take it from the front.
00:12:58.560 What you'd actually do is you'd ask people to explain themselves.
00:13:01.880 Tell me something about yourself.
00:13:03.380 That's how you would start the conversation.
00:13:05.440 The problem is that not everybody can answer that question
00:13:08.880 because they just can't.
00:13:10.340 They don't know.
00:13:10.820 I could say to you, tell me something about yourself,
00:13:12.440 and you'd tell me your full story because you're an open book,
00:13:15.620 but some people don't work like that.
00:13:16.960 So you have to pick the pages apart.
00:13:18.820 You have to look at each chapter of the story,
00:13:21.260 how that particular relationship would have developed,
00:13:23.940 how it's gone from one point to another point,
00:13:26.940 and basically where is the body of Danielle Jones?
00:13:31.260 And that remains, her body's still outstanding,
00:13:33.940 and I wish to God that he'd just tell everybody where the body is,
00:13:38.240 but I'm not sure that he ever will.
00:13:40.220 Give me a successful one.
00:13:41.400 So that's an unsuccessful one where you guys weren't able to get the information you wanted.
00:13:46.120 Give me a story of somebody that you never thought it was going to be happening,
00:13:49.640 they were not open-minded,
00:13:50.600 but you were able to get the information how and why.
00:13:54.560 Right.
00:13:55.020 So a lady called Hannah Phillips, 1.00
00:13:58.160 she was an elderly lady,
00:14:01.860 and she lived with her,
00:14:04.100 I believe it was her daughter and her son-in-law,
00:14:08.820 and there was an argument in the house.
00:14:11.880 She has, it turns out, been pushed over, banged her head.
00:14:14.860 She's died.
00:14:16.000 This guy has wrapped her body up in a tarpauling,
00:14:20.080 a big plastic sheet,
00:14:22.180 taken her out into a rural wooded area.
00:14:25.960 Before he actually took her there,
00:14:27.380 he went and found a suitable area.
00:14:28.880 He dug a hole deep enough to bury the body.
00:14:34.400 He wrapped her up in this tarpauling,
00:14:38.300 tied her up,
00:14:39.240 put her in a wheelbarrow,
00:14:40.340 wheeled her out to his Volvo motor car,
00:14:41.860 took the body out to this wooded area and buried her.
00:14:46.460 Now,
00:14:48.060 there were a catalogue of lies that were told
00:14:50.520 because they reported her as being missing,
00:14:53.320 and so on and so forth.
00:14:54.720 Myself and a guy from Paul Thomas,
00:14:56.960 a smashing fellow,
00:14:58.620 we were detailed to go and arrest and interview this chap.
00:15:04.640 We go and arrest him,
00:15:06.260 because he's to say nothing,
00:15:07.380 I haven't done anything wrong,
00:15:08.280 I haven't done anything wrong.
00:15:08.940 But,
00:15:10.440 and he was very,
00:15:11.480 very,
00:15:11.700 he wasn't open to it at all,
00:15:13.960 you know,
00:15:14.240 no,
00:15:14.660 no,
00:15:14.860 no,
00:15:15.000 no.
00:15:15.500 By the time we got him back into the custody suite,
00:15:19.000 and we saw,
00:15:19.820 he then opened up,
00:15:20.680 he realised that what had gone on
00:15:22.640 was wrong,
00:15:25.280 he needed,
00:15:26.440 his conscience started to kick in,
00:15:28.240 and what he actually did,
00:15:29.620 was he identified where the body was buried,
00:15:32.100 he took us there,
00:15:32.880 he put a forensic suit on,
00:15:36.660 a white forensic,
00:15:37.540 top to bottom forensic suit on,
00:15:38.760 a mask,
00:15:39.220 a whole lot,
00:15:39.640 he's handcuffed to us,
00:15:41.060 and we took him out to where the body was,
00:15:43.320 the deposition site,
00:15:45.000 and the forensic guys recovered this lady's body,
00:15:47.680 and he was subsequently convicted,
00:15:50.500 as was his wife.
00:15:52.600 And that's,
00:15:53.760 you know,
00:15:54.060 that's a success,
00:15:55.100 because the family would never have put the body back,
00:15:58.240 it's,
00:15:59.280 I would say it wouldn't I,
00:16:00.220 but it's because we were good communicators,
00:16:02.060 that he actually gave the body out.
00:16:03.800 So from the moment of,
00:16:05.540 I don't want to talk to you guys,
00:16:06.800 to the moment of going to,
00:16:08.440 showing you where the body is,
00:16:09.400 how many hours or days is that?
00:16:11.880 Well,
00:16:12.220 in this country,
00:16:13.420 you can only teach on for up to 36 hours,
00:16:15.960 24 hours,
00:16:16.780 then a further 12 hours,
00:16:17.940 and then they go into a warrant of detention.
00:16:20.360 But it wasn't a long,
00:16:21.920 long time,
00:16:22.420 it was several hours before he actually told us,
00:16:25.020 it's obviously been playing on his mind for some time.
00:16:27.560 Was he emotional?
00:16:28.440 Was he crying?
00:16:29.140 Was he in a state of,
00:16:30.660 like,
00:16:31.220 he was absolutely devastated,
00:16:33.000 because,
00:16:34.260 his mother in his bed,
00:16:35.700 and he's got a period of body.
00:16:38.480 Yeah,
00:16:38.760 it's,
00:16:39.600 I mean,
00:16:40.000 some people will never cry,
00:16:41.540 and some people will,
00:16:43.340 they'll tell you.
00:16:44.340 But,
00:16:45.220 as I say,
00:16:45.720 the legal system in this country,
00:16:47.780 I think is a great legal system,
00:16:49.280 I think,
00:16:49.780 you know,
00:16:49.960 everybody's entitled to defense,
00:16:51.920 all those types of things.
00:16:54.260 So,
00:16:54.740 so far,
00:16:55.320 one of,
00:16:55.620 so far,
00:16:56.120 one of the things that I got from what you're saying is,
00:16:59.020 is,
00:16:59.760 if it's family,
00:17:01.500 you,
00:17:02.120 you negotiate with them based on conscience,
00:17:04.760 because they're feeling guilty,
00:17:07.180 they're regretful,
00:17:07.940 that's one of the ways.
00:17:09.700 Yeah,
00:17:09.900 you try,
00:17:10.400 I mean,
00:17:10.600 sometimes you won't negotiate,
00:17:12.360 because I hated them so much,
00:17:13.460 that they're quite pleased that they're,
00:17:14.620 they're gone.
00:17:15.100 I mean,
00:17:17.940 but they're all tragic,
00:17:19.180 there's no,
00:17:19.540 there are no good outcomes to any of these,
00:17:21.400 because,
00:17:23.000 somebody's died,
00:17:24.240 at the end of the day,
00:17:25.040 someone has died,
00:17:25.880 and they've died at somebody else's hand.
00:17:27.700 So,
00:17:28.140 I mean,
00:17:28.360 I've used the phrase before,
00:17:29.940 a murder is a murder is a murder,
00:17:31.180 it's the technique that is used in order to do that.
00:17:33.820 Now,
00:17:35.000 in the UK,
00:17:36.460 our gun crime is far lower than the US,
00:17:38.460 we haven't got rights to bear arms,
00:17:39.720 there's no second amendment,
00:17:40.700 is it second amendment?
00:17:42.060 Second amendment,
00:17:42.560 well,
00:17:42.680 you guys have a lot of stabbing,
00:17:44.220 you guys got a lot of stabbing.
00:17:46.700 Correct.
00:17:47.300 Yeah.
00:17:47.660 So,
00:17:48.040 that is,
00:17:48.880 you know,
00:17:49.240 that is the,
00:17:50.000 the weapon of choice at the moment,
00:17:52.400 certainly within the gang culture,
00:17:53.980 and in some such as society,
00:17:56.820 the knife,
00:17:57.600 and,
00:17:58.540 it could be from a modeling knife,
00:18:00.440 through to a bowie knife,
00:18:01.720 to a machete,
00:18:02.600 to whatever,
00:18:03.100 but that is the way,
00:18:04.580 but,
00:18:05.000 the point I make is,
00:18:07.660 fortunately,
00:18:08.700 guns aren't as prevalent here.
00:18:10.400 So,
00:18:12.120 if a cop turns up to a,
00:18:13.960 a job where there is a gun,
00:18:16.360 that's being brandished,
00:18:17.560 nine times out of ten,
00:18:19.480 that weapon,
00:18:20.560 will be illegally held.
00:18:22.360 Nobody will have a semi-automatic rifle,
00:18:24.580 they're not,
00:18:24.960 they'll have a shotgun, 0.96
00:18:26.040 they'll have a rifle for killing deer,
00:18:28.680 but the fact is,
00:18:30.240 that most people,
00:18:31.060 if they present that,
00:18:32.760 and the armed police turn up,
00:18:33.920 they've got a good chance of getting shot,
00:18:35.180 because,
00:18:36.120 whereas,
00:18:36.840 I watched a video the other day,
00:18:38.620 somebody in Oklahoma,
00:18:39.840 running around with a,
00:18:41.460 with a,
00:18:42.640 what he called a pistol,
00:18:43.780 it looked like a rifle,
00:18:44.640 and he's doing a second amendment audit,
00:18:46.640 and I'm thinking,
00:18:47.420 come on man,
00:18:48.080 this is, 0.99
00:18:48.480 this is ridiculous, 0.96
00:18:49.620 we don't have that situation here. 0.82
00:18:51.500 So,
00:18:53.300 you know,
00:18:53.500 for murders,
00:18:54.560 where,
00:18:54.800 where someone's been shot,
00:18:56.040 yes,
00:18:56.480 we have them where they have been shot,
00:18:58.180 we have illegally held firearms,
00:18:59.980 or we'll have a shotgun that's been sawn down,
00:19:02.160 so it makes a barrel shorter,
00:19:03.700 easier to use.
00:19:05.500 What's the most disturbing case you,
00:19:07.600 you were assigned?
00:19:08.280 Most disturbing case,
00:19:09.780 and maybe the most disturbing scene,
00:19:11.920 you've ever been a part of?
00:19:14.160 I think the,
00:19:15.800 murder of a lady down in,
00:19:17.940 a place called Southend,
00:19:18.940 which is down on the coast,
00:19:20.620 she split,
00:19:23.160 she came over from Zimbabwe,
00:19:24.420 they were,
00:19:24.760 they came over as medical refugees,
00:19:27.320 nice family,
00:19:28.740 her husband decides,
00:19:30.020 he's going to have a relationship,
00:19:31.100 with another woman,
00:19:31.960 and,
00:19:32.360 the wife,
00:19:34.400 isn't very happy with this.
00:19:36.120 So,
00:19:36.660 they split up,
00:19:37.360 but he can't cope with the separation,
00:19:39.740 so he goes to the local army navy store,
00:19:42.700 buys himself a machete,
00:19:44.900 and he sits there,
00:19:45.840 and lovingly hones it,
00:19:47.160 makes it as sharp as he possibly can.
00:19:51.080 The lady takes the children to school,
00:19:53.960 and as she walks away from the school,
00:19:55.920 he walks up behind her,
00:19:57.280 and he severs her head,
00:20:00.500 with one blow,
00:20:01.380 takes her head off of her shoulders,
00:20:03.040 with the exception,
00:20:04.340 of 2.5 centimetres,
00:20:06.240 one inch of skin,
00:20:07.340 that's holding her head on,
00:20:08.700 and I think,
00:20:09.620 that was quite a,
00:20:10.640 that was quite a disturbing scene,
00:20:11.960 when we got to the mortuary,
00:20:13.160 because,
00:20:14.220 she'd been collected,
00:20:15.160 taken to the mortuary,
00:20:16.200 and when they were preparing for post-mortem,
00:20:19.040 that was quite a disturbing sight.
00:20:20.980 There are no good post-mortems,
00:20:23.360 they're very interesting,
00:20:24.940 from a biological,
00:20:27.280 or a medical perspective,
00:20:29.060 but none of them,
00:20:30.740 are particularly good,
00:20:32.500 and I've been to quite a few,
00:20:33.960 unfortunately.
00:20:34.640 What ended up happening,
00:20:35.460 to that fellow from Zimbabwe?
00:20:37.100 He got locked up,
00:20:37.980 got locked up for life,
00:20:38.940 now that's the difference,
00:20:40.340 here,
00:20:41.120 life could be up to,
00:20:43.520 well you can get a full life sentence,
00:20:46.100 the police officer,
00:20:47.420 that's featuring some,
00:20:48.820 heavily in the media at the moment,
00:20:50.080 who will remain nameless,
00:20:52.660 he's just got a full life sentence,
00:20:54.480 and so he should, 1.00
00:20:55.500 he killed that lady, 1.00
00:20:57.040 Sarah Everard, 0.99
00:20:57.720 and he deserves everything,
00:20:59.300 that he gets,
00:21:00.420 but,
00:21:02.780 life could go from 12 years,
00:21:04.540 to full life sentence,
00:21:06.640 very few people get full life sentence,
00:21:08.400 really,
00:21:09.100 no one goes to the chair here,
00:21:10.620 got it,
00:21:11.500 got it,
00:21:11.660 what do you think about the chair,
00:21:12.560 do you agree with the chair,
00:21:13.520 or you think it's good,
00:21:14.520 that you guys don't have the chair,
00:21:15.580 no I think,
00:21:16.240 under some circumstances,
00:21:17.540 and I'll get,
00:21:18.100 I'll get shut down,
00:21:19.160 by some of my colleagues,
00:21:19.880 but under some circumstances,
00:21:21.100 yeah I do,
00:21:21.700 if I think that it's,
00:21:22.940 beyond reasonable doubt,
00:21:23.860 if there's DNA,
00:21:24.800 if there's never ever,
00:21:25.940 any chance of it being anybody else,
00:21:28.300 then do you know what, 0.99
00:21:28.980 if you kill a cop, 0.99
00:21:30.380 in this country, 0.70
00:21:31.520 then you face the consequences,
00:21:33.140 that's my view,
00:21:34.400 if you've,
00:21:34.860 if you've, 1.00
00:21:35.520 if you're a predatory pedophile, 1.00
00:21:38.340 and you've killed children, 1.00
00:21:39.740 and we can prove, 1.00
00:21:40.620 that you've killed them, 0.99
00:21:42.240 you're no good to humanity, 1.00
00:21:44.620 so if you killed them, 1.00
00:21:45.340 that's brutal, 1.00
00:21:46.040 I make no apologies for that,
00:21:46.920 there's a lot of people,
00:21:47.760 there's a lot of people,
00:21:47.780 that agree with you,
00:21:48.660 you're not alone there,
00:21:49.800 there's,
00:21:50.580 there's probably,
00:21:51.640 a few billion people,
00:21:52.620 that agree with you,
00:21:53.480 it's not a,
00:21:54.300 a very small percentage,
00:21:56.860 of the population,
00:21:57.540 that would agree,
00:21:58.100 that wouldn't agree with you,
00:22:00.040 but let me continue,
00:22:01.540 on a different route,
00:22:02.400 so many of these cases,
00:22:04.360 you've been a part of,
00:22:05.140 you know a lot of times,
00:22:05.800 in movies you see the good cop,
00:22:07.020 bad cop,
00:22:07.520 one guy comes in,
00:22:08.500 hey you want a cigarette,
00:22:09.440 here's some cigarette,
00:22:10.080 another guy comes in,
00:22:11.280 tell me the truth,
00:22:12.080 hey John get out of here,
00:22:13.060 let me talk to you about,
00:22:14.260 is that just movie stuff,
00:22:15.500 or did you guys use some of those,
00:22:16.840 okay got it,
00:22:17.520 I figured yeah,
00:22:18.540 a good cop,
00:22:19.440 bad cop can come in,
00:22:20.440 many different guises,
00:22:22.000 because I could be miserable anyway,
00:22:24.000 I don't need to,
00:22:24.540 I don't need to be sitting opposite,
00:22:25.620 a suspect to be, 0.97
00:22:26.940 miserable, 0.73
00:22:28.660 or straight faced,
00:22:29.680 or what have you,
00:22:30.640 they're not my friend,
00:22:31.440 but my job,
00:22:33.200 my job is to get them,
00:22:34.580 to talk to me,
00:22:35.360 okay,
00:22:36.580 so I will,
00:22:38.540 I would work within the law,
00:22:40.460 because the law is very clear,
00:22:41.880 around the way that you obtain,
00:22:43.400 confessions in this country,
00:22:45.020 and I would deal with them,
00:22:47.620 in a professional way,
00:22:48.800 most murder suspects,
00:22:50.600 in this country,
00:22:51.400 will have a lawyer present,
00:22:52.640 there are very few,
00:22:53.560 that won't have legal representation,
00:22:55.840 some will tell you,
00:22:59.080 they've done it,
00:22:59.740 some will tell you,
00:23:00.460 you know that they won't,
00:23:01.040 I mean you talked about,
00:23:02.260 talk about a disturbing one,
00:23:03.520 there was,
00:23:04.000 one that really sticks in my mind,
00:23:08.240 and I remember,
00:23:09.200 I remember more,
00:23:10.120 it was a,
00:23:11.200 now Colchester,
00:23:12.420 for your American listeners,
00:23:15.180 is the oldest recorded town,
00:23:16.760 in Great Britain,
00:23:17.920 okay,
00:23:18.200 it was there,
00:23:18.740 the Romans put it there,
00:23:20.280 and this is a local town to us,
00:23:21.760 it's a military base,
00:23:23.840 it's where the parachute regiment are,
00:23:25.440 and there's Roman walls,
00:23:26.900 and there's Roman amphitheaters,
00:23:28.920 and there's all that,
00:23:29.800 it's a great place,
00:23:31.980 this chap was convicted of fraud,
00:23:34.300 of all things,
00:23:35.300 and for which he got seven years in prison,
00:23:37.140 he went to prison,
00:23:40.600 and whilst he was there,
00:23:42.460 he developed a toothache,
00:23:44.760 so they sent him to the local hospital,
00:23:47.200 in a cab,
00:23:48.440 okay,
00:23:48.640 300 pounds,
00:23:50.780 400 dollars later,
00:23:52.860 the guy still hasn't come out,
00:23:53.980 from his treatment,
00:23:54.680 so the taxi driver,
00:23:55.800 who's obviously very bright,
00:23:57.500 thought,
00:23:57.780 oh,
00:23:57.920 this is a bit strange,
00:23:58.640 he's not out,
00:23:59.900 so,
00:24:02.420 they go,
00:24:03.160 try and find him,
00:24:04.040 in the meantime,
00:24:05.100 he's gone from one county,
00:24:06.460 which is in Kent,
00:24:08.260 to Essex,
00:24:08.940 on a train,
00:24:10.260 he's gone to his home in Colchester,
00:24:12.000 where his wife was, 0.97
00:24:13.620 and he stabs her to death, 0.98
00:24:15.160 in front of their, 1.00
00:24:16.820 baby children,
00:24:17.660 and I say baby,
00:24:18.360 they're toddlers,
00:24:19.040 they're running around,
00:24:20.040 and when we turned up,
00:24:20.900 at that scene,
00:24:22.160 there were blood stained footprints,
00:24:24.000 where the children,
00:24:25.180 had been running through,
00:24:26.040 their mother's blood,
00:24:26.980 that is heartbreaking,
00:24:29.040 that is absolutely heartbreaking,
00:24:31.100 you know, 1.00
00:24:31.540 what a cruel bastard, 1.00
00:24:33.620 and, 1.00
00:24:35.300 those,
00:24:36.000 sorts of memories,
00:24:37.540 will stay with me,
00:24:38.880 for the rest of my days,
00:24:39.880 because,
00:24:41.960 it's when your public service,
00:24:43.680 kicks in,
00:24:44.140 it's when you're there,
00:24:44.860 to work for the victim,
00:24:45.920 you're there to work for the family,
00:24:47.140 you're there to make sure,
00:24:48.000 that justice is brought about,
00:24:49.600 and that person,
00:24:50.780 that took that lady's life, 1.00
00:24:52.480 goes to prison,
00:24:53.400 for a very,
00:24:54.120 very long time.
00:24:56.440 Psychologically,
00:24:57.240 what do those things do to you?
00:24:59.720 Do you have ever,
00:25:01.200 you have flashbacks,
00:25:02.220 you have middle of the night,
00:25:03.120 you wake up with nightmares,
00:25:04.760 does it do anything like that to you?
00:25:06.280 Because,
00:25:06.680 you know,
00:25:06.940 many people in your world,
00:25:08.440 tell me stories like that,
00:25:09.400 but I wonder what it does to you.
00:25:11.620 I think it makes you more,
00:25:13.820 look,
00:25:14.180 I love life,
00:25:16.340 you know,
00:25:16.700 it's what we're here for,
00:25:18.080 isn't it,
00:25:18.420 and I,
00:25:18.780 I love my grandchildren,
00:25:20.180 and I love everything,
00:25:21.240 you know,
00:25:21.520 that's wrapped around me,
00:25:22.880 but you become a bit of a fatalist,
00:25:24.500 you understand that,
00:25:25.500 it's,
00:25:26.120 what was it,
00:25:26.560 Anthony Hopkins,
00:25:27.260 who said,
00:25:27.600 you know,
00:25:27.820 none of us get out of here alive,
00:25:29.300 but it's the choices that you've made,
00:25:32.280 or the choices that somebody else has made for you,
00:25:34.140 and do I,
00:25:35.160 do I have dark moments?
00:25:36.500 Yeah,
00:25:36.660 I suppose I do,
00:25:37.480 but I'm not,
00:25:38.200 I don't hang on them,
00:25:39.620 I remember,
00:25:40.340 I remember every post-mortem that I ever went to,
00:25:43.840 I remember standing next to a lady,
00:25:45.500 who had taken her own life on Christmas Eve,
00:25:48.800 in a mortuary,
00:25:50.340 and there was no viewing gallery,
00:25:52.420 and the pathologist has undertaken a post-mortem on her body,
00:25:57.600 they stick with my,
00:25:58.960 in my mind,
00:25:59.660 telling her family,
00:26:01.520 that we've found the body of them,
00:26:03.300 their mother,
00:26:03.980 you know,
00:26:04.340 they are the things that stick with me forever,
00:26:06.620 but that's not going to dent me as an individual,
00:26:09.100 because,
00:26:10.280 it's like saying,
00:26:11.080 I wanted to join,
00:26:13.040 I want to go on a murder squad,
00:26:14.220 but I never want to see a dead body,
00:26:15.520 that just doesn't work,
00:26:16.620 does it,
00:26:16.880 it's like saying,
00:26:17.560 I want to be a traffic cop,
00:26:18.500 but I never want to go to a road collision,
00:26:20.220 no,
00:26:20.400 come on,
00:26:20.720 do me favor,
00:26:21.280 that's not going to,
00:26:22.120 it's not going to happen,
00:26:22.840 makes sense,
00:26:23.340 so,
00:26:23.880 you've got to be very pragmatic about it,
00:26:25.800 in your approach,
00:26:26.720 but you do take that,
00:26:28.820 I saw a guy,
00:26:29.820 my first experience of,
00:26:32.460 I'd experienced deaths before,
00:26:34.120 but the first guy,
00:26:35.660 that I'd seen as a horrific death,
00:26:39.140 he'd been decapitated in a road collision,
00:26:41.900 he was in the road,
00:26:43.060 he knelt up,
00:26:43.720 and as he knelt up,
00:26:44.740 off the road,
00:26:45.260 he had a few drinks,
00:26:46.300 taxi came along,
00:26:47.320 and took him off,
00:26:49.120 took his head off here, 0.95
00:26:50.360 and that was, 0.69
00:26:51.140 that was horrendous,
00:26:52.040 and I'd seen people,
00:26:53.040 that jumped in front of trains,
00:26:54.880 and then at,
00:26:55.300 at five o'clock in the morning,
00:26:56.760 as the sun starts to come up,
00:26:58.160 in,
00:26:58.400 you know,
00:26:58.760 in June,
00:26:59.780 July time,
00:27:01.260 the sun comes up,
00:27:02.140 and the birds are there,
00:27:03.080 picking at this,
00:27:03.920 poor chap's body bits,
00:27:05.300 you know,
00:27:05.480 that have been sprayed,
00:27:06.340 across the body,
00:27:07.520 they stay with you,
00:27:08.480 does that affect me,
00:27:09.680 yeah,
00:27:10.020 it does times,
00:27:10.840 I've been in tears,
00:27:12.640 I remember,
00:27:13.280 I was a family,
00:27:14.920 people think that,
00:27:16.320 I don't know,
00:27:17.120 the American culture,
00:27:18.100 I've got family in America,
00:27:19.480 and I love,
00:27:20.700 absolutely love the states,
00:27:21.600 but it's like comparing apples,
00:27:23.080 with pears,
00:27:23.600 and they're going to think, 0.99
00:27:24.140 I'm a soft bugger, 0.99
00:27:24.860 you know, 0.99
00:27:25.100 that's the,
00:27:26.220 but I was a family liaison officer,
00:27:28.200 for a young lady,
00:27:30.180 and she'd been struck by a train,
00:27:31.880 and it took two weeks,
00:27:32.740 to find her body,
00:27:34.560 and I remember,
00:27:35.520 getting on a plane,
00:27:36.400 with my family,
00:27:37.060 going to Spain,
00:27:38.660 flying down to Spain,
00:27:39.500 and everybody's reading,
00:27:41.580 the national newspapers,
00:27:42.680 and there she was,
00:27:43.780 on the front page,
00:27:44.440 of national newspapers,
00:27:45.840 and we'd announced,
00:27:47.140 that we'd found her body,
00:27:48.980 you know,
00:27:49.180 it'd been all over,
00:27:49.920 the national media,
00:27:50.780 the BBC,
00:27:51.460 ITV,
00:27:51.920 the whole thing,
00:27:52.700 and I just sat there and cried,
00:27:53.640 because you just think,
00:27:54.800 that kid's been in that,
00:27:56.440 she's been dead,
00:27:57.540 for two weeks,
00:27:58.340 and we've only just found,
00:27:59.780 her body,
00:28:00.480 so yes,
00:28:01.300 it does affect you,
00:28:02.540 you've dealt,
00:28:03.220 I've dealt with some lovely people,
00:28:04.940 from the victim's perspective,
00:28:07.040 I've dealt with some,
00:28:08.260 really interesting people,
00:28:09.500 I've dealt with some,
00:28:11.660 very interesting suspects,
00:28:13.740 because they've all got,
00:28:14.420 a story to tell,
00:28:15.760 yeah,
00:28:16.400 so let me,
00:28:17.860 let me ask you,
00:28:18.820 in regards to the guy,
00:28:20.400 that took out his wife,
00:28:21.420 that was going to the dentist,
00:28:22.580 and the taxi's like,
00:28:24.160 where is he,
00:28:24.640 and they go find,
00:28:25.420 and see what he did,
00:28:26.000 to his wife,
00:28:27.140 did you ever interview him,
00:28:28.520 and speak with him afterwards,
00:28:29.660 or no?
00:28:30.680 I didn't interview him,
00:28:32.220 for that,
00:28:32.640 I was the office manager,
00:28:34.120 for that particular job,
00:28:35.260 but obviously,
00:28:37.580 I worked very closely,
00:28:38.700 with the guys,
00:28:39.440 and girls, 0.92
00:28:40.100 that did do the interviews,
00:28:41.900 did you,
00:28:42.840 did you,
00:28:43.120 like,
00:28:43.360 the reason why I ask is,
00:28:44.740 you know,
00:28:45.460 Kuklinski's story,
00:28:46.700 right,
00:28:47.000 you know,
00:28:47.540 the Richard Kuklinski story,
00:28:49.820 do you know who he is?
00:28:50.500 No, I don't.
00:28:50.660 Okay,
00:28:51.200 so who's the coldest,
00:28:52.720 person you sat in front of,
00:28:54.720 where you said,
00:28:55.320 this person doesn't have a soul,
00:28:57.480 did you ever sit in front of somebody,
00:28:59.220 where you,
00:28:59.800 maybe were,
00:29:02.060 feared for your own life?
00:29:05.980 Did I ever fear for my own life?
00:29:08.360 Not in interview,
00:29:09.680 no,
00:29:10.340 I think the coldest man,
00:29:12.060 I've ever met,
00:29:12.720 was Stuart Campbell,
00:29:13.980 and he's the man,
00:29:14.680 who killed Daniel Jones,
00:29:15.820 and he's the guy,
00:29:16.420 that's still locked up,
00:29:19.360 I,
00:29:19.580 I dealt with a lady, 1.00
00:29:21.480 called Julianne Taylor,
00:29:22.520 she was pretty cold,
00:29:23.380 she killed her husband, 1.00
00:29:25.160 stabbed him through the heart, 0.94
00:29:26.160 in front of the washing machine, 0.95
00:29:27.280 he was standing by the washing machine, 0.78
00:29:28.380 she stabbed him through the heart, 0.91
00:29:29.300 one single stabber, 0.95
00:29:30.840 and she was pretty cold as well,
00:29:32.040 and,
00:29:33.100 I think they've all,
00:29:34.200 they've all,
00:29:36.700 they've all got,
00:29:38.840 a story,
00:29:39.660 I think they've all got,
00:29:40.400 an element of coldness,
00:29:41.940 for,
00:29:42.640 I interview one guy,
00:29:43.480 who killed his mother,
00:29:44.080 because she had outsiders,
00:29:44.880 you know,
00:29:45.100 and,
00:29:45.780 he wasn't cold,
00:29:46.600 he was absolutely,
00:29:48.220 distraught,
00:29:48.760 but there was nobody,
00:29:49.500 that could deal with his mother,
00:29:51.120 you know,
00:29:51.500 and,
00:29:53.460 he put a pillow across the face,
00:29:56.280 so,
00:29:57.860 but I was,
00:29:59.300 I can honestly say,
00:30:00.400 there's a guy called Martin Valentine,
00:30:01.760 who I didn't interview,
00:30:02.540 but I worked on the job,
00:30:03.460 he,
00:30:03.640 he shot a man,
00:30:05.260 by the name of John Ward, 0.74
00:30:07.200 and he shot him through the throat,
00:30:09.220 and Martin Valentine,
00:30:10.280 I previously dealt with,
00:30:12.720 about 18 years prior,
00:30:14.040 to this particular thing,
00:30:15.220 when he shot a security guard,
00:30:17.080 on an armed robbery,
00:30:17.800 he's,
00:30:18.840 he's pretty cold hearted,
00:30:20.300 and,
00:30:20.560 I would imagine,
00:30:21.720 he's still languishing,
00:30:22.620 you know,
00:30:22.800 jails to come with.
00:30:23.580 Do you think these guys,
00:30:24.560 do you psychoanalyze these guys,
00:30:26.200 or no,
00:30:26.480 your job is just to ask questions,
00:30:28.200 are you,
00:30:29.420 my job is to ask questions,
00:30:31.500 that's it,
00:30:31.860 that's not,
00:30:32.140 we would be assessed,
00:30:34.020 by a psychologist,
00:30:36.100 for some of the jobs,
00:30:36.820 that we do,
00:30:37.260 to make sure,
00:30:37.820 that we weren't,
00:30:38.880 affected by them,
00:30:41.280 that,
00:30:41.540 you know,
00:30:41.880 if you,
00:30:42.420 if you interviewed somebody,
00:30:43.660 who's got a celebrity status,
00:30:45.980 and I did that,
00:30:48.620 we,
00:30:48.820 we had to be assessed,
00:30:49.580 by a psychologist,
00:30:50.460 to make sure,
00:30:50.960 that we were the right people,
00:30:51.800 so that we didn't become starstruck,
00:30:53.800 who,
00:30:53.980 who was a celebrity,
00:30:54.980 that you interviewed,
00:30:55.540 is this,
00:30:55.800 a guy called Michael Barrymore,
00:30:57.460 he was,
00:30:58.000 he was,
00:30:59.980 he was Mr. Saturday night,
00:31:01.680 in the UK,
00:31:02.200 and he was accused,
00:31:03.680 of killing somebody,
00:31:05.600 and that's never been proven,
00:31:06.640 but yeah,
00:31:07.200 what I interviewed him,
00:31:08.040 did he get out,
00:31:08.840 did he end up doing time,
00:31:10.420 or no?
00:31:11.140 No,
00:31:11.720 no,
00:31:11.940 no,
00:31:12.120 no,
00:31:12.280 no,
00:31:12.400 no,
00:31:12.540 he was,
00:31:13.560 there was no,
00:31:15.860 no case to answer against him,
00:31:17.420 and in fact,
00:31:18.280 sadly,
00:31:19.100 the man who's,
00:31:20.300 who passed away,
00:31:21.400 his father,
00:31:21.920 who's been,
00:31:22.300 championing his,
00:31:24.040 his cause,
00:31:25.340 has recently passed away,
00:31:27.260 as well,
00:31:27.560 but yeah,
00:31:28.160 I mean,
00:31:28.420 it's,
00:31:29.420 it's an interesting job,
00:31:32.000 it's fantastic,
00:31:33.100 it's,
00:31:33.340 it's a job that people,
00:31:34.520 pay money to do,
00:31:35.520 because,
00:31:36.500 well,
00:31:36.620 you look at all the,
00:31:37.320 all the crime series,
00:31:38.680 on the television,
00:31:39.620 all the books,
00:31:40.300 or the best,
00:31:40.860 you know,
00:31:41.080 the best books,
00:31:42.100 everything,
00:31:43.080 it's all about crime,
00:31:45.320 is it?
00:31:45.560 Crime and punishment,
00:31:46.480 murders,
00:31:47.280 whatever it may be,
00:31:48.080 they are the best,
00:31:49.680 best series on television.
00:31:51.080 It's amazing how,
00:31:51.840 the most interesting podcast.
00:31:53.460 Yeah,
00:31:53.740 people are fascinated by,
00:31:55.300 those stories,
00:31:57.960 from,
00:31:58.420 from the coldest people,
00:32:00.480 where,
00:32:01.120 you know,
00:32:01.460 who are,
00:32:02.240 who end up doing what they do,
00:32:04.260 to others,
00:32:04.860 murdering others, 0.92
00:32:05.680 do you, 0.99
00:32:07.240 do you get a sense,
00:32:08.260 you've been in this world for 30 years,
00:32:09.680 it's either going to be a very simple no answer,
00:32:11.720 or it's going to be an answer with a lot of explanation.
00:32:14.620 Do you think these folks,
00:32:15.680 some of them are born,
00:32:17.560 cold the way they are?
00:32:19.520 Yes.
00:32:19.820 Or do you think it's a life experience situation,
00:32:22.640 just a lot of trauma,
00:32:24.380 bad experience with parents,
00:32:26.040 mom,
00:32:26.520 dad,
00:32:27.400 community,
00:32:28.120 you know,
00:32:28.320 all of the things that they experience,
00:32:29.620 or do you think some of them are just cold from the day they're born?
00:32:32.660 They're born bad.
00:32:33.980 You really believe that?
00:32:35.520 Yeah,
00:32:35.760 I do believe that.
00:32:36.600 I think that,
00:32:37.080 you know,
00:32:37.280 the kid that's pulling the legs off of a spider today,
00:32:40.760 has got potential of becoming a killer in 20 years time,
00:32:43.200 and I really believe that,
00:32:44.180 because it's,
00:32:45.460 it's shown that,
00:32:46.920 um,
00:32:47.820 sex offenders,
00:32:48.460 for instance,
00:32:48.820 they start with,
00:32:49.800 uh,
00:32:50.160 animal cruelty,
00:32:52.100 um,
00:32:52.420 lighting small fires,
00:32:53.620 things like that,
00:32:54.140 and then it just escalates to,
00:32:55.640 more sadistic behavior towards other human beings,
00:32:58.620 and that's,
00:32:59.260 you know,
00:32:59.720 that's well documented.
00:33:00.880 So I believe that,
00:33:01.640 I do believe that some people are born bad.
00:33:03.920 I believe that some kids are born into a situation that they make the wrong life choice,
00:33:10.300 they'll go and commit a robbery,
00:33:11.920 they're nice people,
00:33:12.920 you know,
00:33:13.760 in essence,
00:33:15.200 they're a nice person,
00:33:15.980 but the fact is that they've got life,
00:33:18.320 life choices,
00:33:19.100 they've gone and committed a robbery,
00:33:20.160 someone stepped out,
00:33:21.060 they've shot them,
00:33:21.760 they've stabbed them, 0.98
00:33:22.280 whatever it may be.
00:33:23.420 Did they go out of their way to do it?
00:33:24.940 I don't know.
00:33:25.680 I'm,
00:33:25.920 you know,
00:33:26.200 I'm not there,
00:33:26.900 but I do think there are some,
00:33:28.120 but I think some people are definitely born bad.
00:33:30.060 How many total interviews have you done with murderers over the 30 years?
00:33:33.240 What's,
00:33:33.440 what's the number?
00:33:34.060 What do you think?
00:33:37.080 I think in excess of 40,
00:33:40.220 which isn't a huge amount,
00:33:41.540 but that's,
00:33:41.920 you know,
00:33:42.080 it's quite a,
00:33:42.800 that's quite a lot.
00:33:43.720 How many deaths have I been to?
00:33:46.240 Innumerable.
00:33:46.640 I mean,
00:33:47.100 that's,
00:33:47.520 I couldn't tell you,
00:33:48.660 I couldn't sit down and tell you,
00:33:50.580 but yeah.
00:33:51.660 So,
00:33:52.080 so what,
00:33:52.920 what have you noticed,
00:33:53.840 like from,
00:33:54.600 from that experience?
00:33:55.680 What,
00:33:56.320 what tales have you picked up?
00:33:58.000 What,
00:33:58.180 I mean,
00:33:58.340 when I came in,
00:33:59.040 you were talking to David and he said,
00:34:00.260 where are you from?
00:34:00.820 Columbia.
00:34:01.100 And I said,
00:34:01.480 be careful.
00:34:02.200 He's sizing you up because he's trying to learn to see if you committed anything.
00:34:05.120 I'm like,
00:34:05.420 this guy's a professional question asker,
00:34:07.740 but what,
00:34:09.300 have you caught any tales where,
00:34:11.540 you know,
00:34:12.120 you say,
00:34:12.660 Ooh,
00:34:13.000 that reminds me of what the other guy did.
00:34:14.900 And interesting.
00:34:16.160 He just got uncomfortable.
00:34:17.240 I must've triggered something here.
00:34:19.000 Have you,
00:34:19.600 have you caught anything from body language from learning by interviewing these people?
00:34:23.780 Yeah.
00:34:24.220 I mean,
00:34:24.440 there is an element of that.
00:34:25.640 And I think it's the way that they answer their questions.
00:34:28.020 And once they start lying,
00:34:30.380 cause we have to prove lies as much as we need to find the truth.
00:34:35.580 You've got to prove a lie.
00:34:36.580 And you,
00:34:37.220 I think you instinctively know when they're telling lies,
00:34:39.720 certainly if you've got,
00:34:40.800 but they're all,
00:34:42.040 they're all,
00:34:42.720 there's similarities because you've got a dead person,
00:34:47.880 you've got a post-mortem,
00:34:49.620 but they're all so different.
00:34:51.540 You know,
00:34:51.720 the techniques that you might use,
00:34:53.460 um,
00:34:54.660 a man by the name of Roger Turnell,
00:34:57.440 he,
00:34:57.760 he was murdered in his home.
00:35:01.120 Um, 0.88
00:35:01.940 gay male, 0.85
00:35:03.420 traveled the world. 0.96
00:35:04.860 Um,
00:35:05.260 and he was,
00:35:07.420 they set lights to his house.
00:35:08.800 They set,
00:35:09.200 they set lights to his premises.
00:35:10.660 And when they got into the post-mortem,
00:35:12.580 they discovered that his hyoid bone had been broken.
00:35:16.160 Well,
00:35:16.260 the only way you're going to do that is through strangulation.
00:35:18.360 There's no,
00:35:18.720 there's no other way that that's going to happen.
00:35:20.880 Um,
00:35:21.320 we've launched a full on murder investigation.
00:35:23.620 That family were completely different to the other families that I've dealt with.
00:35:29.020 So you can't say the,
00:35:30.860 the difficult ones is where the suspect,
00:35:33.160 and you can't prove it as a family member.
00:35:35.480 And you get allocated to them.
00:35:37.620 And,
00:35:37.780 and the family liaison in this country is actually,
00:35:40.620 I don't know what it's like in the States.
00:35:41.740 I know I keep saying that,
00:35:42.520 but the family liaison in this country is a,
00:35:45.240 a skill on its own.
00:35:46.740 And you will get placed family layers.
00:35:49.200 And obviously you'll get placed with the family,
00:35:50.900 but you could be sitting in a hotel room because we've taken over the entire house as a crime scene.
00:35:56.280 You can be sitting in the hotel room with the suspect.
00:35:59.560 And at some point you might get that phone call from the boss to say,
00:36:02.540 you've got to nick him now.
00:36:04.140 You've got to arrest him or her.
00:36:06.160 Um,
00:36:06.740 we think we've got enough now to arrest him for murder or they'll take,
00:36:10.240 they'll extricate you and they'll put somebody else in to do the arrest.
00:36:14.340 30 years of doing this.
00:36:15.640 What have you learned about a man?
00:36:18.340 What have you learned about human beings?
00:36:21.160 30 years of doing this.
00:36:22.460 They're evil. 0.87
00:36:24.880 They are. 0.54
00:36:25.800 Honestly,
00:36:26.260 I didn't need to have been the police to work some of that out,
00:36:28.260 but you know,
00:36:28.720 there are some evil people out there and we use a phrase I used earlier on.
00:36:33.820 Are they mad?
00:36:34.400 Are they bad?
00:36:35.160 You know,
00:36:35.440 and there are some very,
00:36:36.860 very bad people out there and I don't think any of them are trustworthy.
00:36:41.940 If I'm honest with you.
00:36:43.300 Anybody.
00:36:44.480 No,
00:36:44.840 why do it?
00:36:49.380 That's a,
00:36:49.920 that's a real sweeping statement,
00:36:51.120 but when you say something,
00:36:53.600 don't say anything and you know full well,
00:36:55.600 you're feeding that in because they'll go and tell somebody,
00:36:57.620 you start to get the rub around human nature,
00:37:00.860 don't you?
00:37:01.260 And that most people don't do it for any bad reason,
00:37:04.620 but yeah,
00:37:05.480 you've got to,
00:37:06.240 you've got to be careful.
00:37:07.040 How many times have you been married?
00:37:08.420 How many times have you been married?
00:37:09.480 Once.
00:37:11.480 And you're still married to the same person.
00:37:13.260 Yeah.
00:37:14.080 What do you,
00:37:14.940 what do you do when you're talking to your wife and you're like,
00:37:17.000 babe, 0.97
00:37:17.200 I know you're bullshitting me.
00:37:18.380 Do you Colorado?
00:37:19.120 You just kind of like,
00:37:19.920 what do you do?
00:37:20.820 What do you do when that happens?
00:37:21.820 Do you just not say anything?
00:37:22.800 She just got back.
00:37:24.120 She just got back.
00:37:25.720 She just got back in.
00:37:27.860 No,
00:37:28.380 I mean,
00:37:28.920 I mean,
00:37:29.280 you know what I'm saying?
00:37:30.180 Sometimes.
00:37:34.500 Paul Mallory has been missing for two weeks.
00:37:37.400 Yeah.
00:37:38.240 Yeah.
00:37:39.160 You know,
00:37:39.700 I've got,
00:37:40.040 I've got two wonderful sons,
00:37:41.480 but you know what I'm saying?
00:37:42.200 Like what I'm saying is like,
00:37:43.320 you know,
00:37:43.520 sometimes I'm,
00:37:44.620 I'm in the,
00:37:45.340 I've been in sales for 20 years and I've had a lot of weird people in my
00:37:49.480 life who are bipolar and personality disorders.
00:37:52.340 And I've been forced to study body language because I don't have a choice.
00:37:56.640 I had to know a person who's got seven different personalities every day.
00:38:00.080 I had no idea who this person was going to be.
00:38:01.720 So I'm like,
00:38:02.440 who are you today?
00:38:03.400 I'm like,
00:38:03.760 okay,
00:38:04.240 let me pivot.
00:38:05.100 Right.
00:38:05.600 But when you,
00:38:06.420 when you're a parent now and you got kids and you're married and you know,
00:38:09.780 nobody walks on water.
00:38:10.900 When your kid lies to you,
00:38:11.960 your spouse lies to you.
00:38:12.980 Somebody is maybe not wanting to tell you the whole story and you know it and
00:38:16.700 you read it.
00:38:17.280 What do you do about it?
00:38:19.980 I'm trying to get a little bit.
00:38:22.340 It's,
00:38:23.780 it's difficult.
00:38:25.060 The worst thing is when,
00:38:26.440 you know,
00:38:26.740 and I still find it now.
00:38:28.100 I run a business now.
00:38:29.120 I run a company that we recruit cops.
00:38:32.380 So when cops retire,
00:38:33.620 we recruit them into the public or private sector.
00:38:36.560 We've got a services site.
00:38:38.040 So people have got their own businesses.
00:38:39.960 They advertise us a few,
00:38:41.260 a few dollars a month.
00:38:42.280 Um,
00:38:44.000 but I still get to the point when someone says,
00:38:46.420 if someone walks into your office and says,
00:38:48.480 do you know what?
00:38:48.960 I've really messed up here.
00:38:50.680 You can almost forgive them.
00:38:52.520 You can actually say,
00:38:53.580 okay,
00:38:54.240 as long as they tell you the truth.
00:38:55.340 Sure.
00:38:55.540 And then they walk in and say,
00:38:56.600 that wasn't,
00:38:57.420 I never did it.
00:38:58.980 And that's,
00:38:59.500 you know,
00:38:59.820 your first instinct is to go up like,
00:39:01.840 we have a phrase here,
00:39:02.780 go up like a company rocket.
00:39:04.520 And it's just,
00:39:06.900 yeah,
00:39:09.140 I can explode sometimes.
00:39:10.260 I know you find that hard to believe,
00:39:11.540 but I have got,
00:39:13.480 I can get quite animated,
00:39:15.840 but I suppose that's,
00:39:17.300 that's a passion.
00:39:18.740 Yeah.
00:39:18.900 I guess the reason why I'm asking this question is like,
00:39:21.820 you know,
00:39:22.340 uh,
00:39:22.660 uh,
00:39:23.000 to be doing this business and you're still married to the same,
00:39:26.020 how,
00:39:26.220 how many years have you guys been married?
00:39:27.600 You said grandkids.
00:39:28.760 So I'm assuming,
00:39:29.280 okay,
00:39:29.440 30 years.
00:39:29.960 I mean,
00:39:31.120 you have to know for 30 years,
00:39:33.320 you've been dealing with people who cheat,
00:39:36.060 lie,
00:39:36.520 steal, 1.00
00:39:37.140 kill. 1.00
00:39:38.000 And, 1.00
00:39:38.400 and,
00:39:38.720 and you're trying to come home and say,
00:39:40.360 babe, 0.51
00:39:40.680 how are you?
00:39:41.840 Oh my gosh,
00:39:42.980 kids,
00:39:43.660 daddy's here to play with you.
00:39:45.220 How are you doing?
00:39:45.880 Did you do your homework?
00:39:46.900 Of course I did my homework.
00:39:48.020 You're like,
00:39:48.460 you know,
00:39:48.660 this kid didn't do his homework.
00:39:49.740 So how do you,
00:39:50.880 how do you not bring your work home with what you do on a daily basis?
00:39:55.460 My kids knew when I was on the major investigation side,
00:39:59.000 my kids knew where I was by the news because the county is,
00:40:03.640 the department that we were on was quite small.
00:40:06.340 So if there was a homicide murder,
00:40:08.920 um,
00:40:09.360 it would make the national news,
00:40:10.860 uh,
00:40:11.740 or the,
00:40:12.100 you know,
00:40:12.280 the local news most certainly.
00:40:14.540 So my kids knew,
00:40:15.260 and I was quite an errant father.
00:40:16.600 I'll tell you,
00:40:17.420 this,
00:40:17.820 this is a true story.
00:40:18.700 My son,
00:40:19.240 um,
00:40:20.120 plays field hockey.
00:40:21.000 He's six foot five.
00:40:21.940 He's,
00:40:22.280 he's a,
00:40:22.860 he's a giant now,
00:40:23.820 but plays field hockey.
00:40:25.360 I know that you don't play field hockey out there.
00:40:27.360 There's guys that play field hockey out there.
00:40:29.040 And he got through to a national final.
00:40:31.320 And I was in Washington DC with the FBI Academy,
00:40:35.120 um,
00:40:35.640 doing a job there.
00:40:36.800 I should have been at home.
00:40:38.080 I should have been at home.
00:40:39.000 I should have been watching my son play hockey.
00:40:40.840 Um,
00:40:41.880 and you know,
00:40:43.260 I'm doing it all by the phone.
00:40:44.300 How'd he get on?
00:40:45.060 Yeah,
00:40:45.180 he did really well.
00:40:45.880 You know,
00:40:46.100 you just,
00:40:46.500 I missed out so much,
00:40:48.600 but here's the other thing of that story.
00:40:50.780 I traveled out there with a single pubic hair.
00:40:53.360 Um,
00:40:54.160 a young girl been,
00:40:55.340 been,
00:40:56.020 um, 0.81
00:40:56.540 sexually assaulted and a single pubic hair was found on her underwear.
00:41:01.760 And we'd identified the suspect DNA,
00:41:05.280 the whole,
00:41:05.720 whole nine yards,
00:41:06.660 but they brought into doubt how she collected this on her body.
00:41:13.040 So we went and found a scientist that the FBI,
00:41:16.440 um,
00:41:17.240 in Quantico,
00:41:18.140 we went up there.
00:41:19.400 Fascinating guy,
00:41:20.220 guy called Carrie Owen.
00:41:21.200 You,
00:41:21.300 you,
00:41:21.500 you couldn't wish to meet a nicer guy,
00:41:23.040 but a more interesting.
00:41:24.000 He's,
00:41:24.320 he's the man who found the,
00:41:25.720 um,
00:41:26.740 the blood or the fibers on the,
00:41:28.300 on the break of the murder victim in,
00:41:30.600 in,
00:41:30.740 in,
00:41:31.180 um,
00:41:31.880 Texas when they dragged the black guy behind the truck.
00:41:34.300 And he found microscope,
00:41:38.020 a microscopic piece of debris.
00:41:40.040 And they,
00:41:40.600 and they linked that car to the murder of that guy.
00:41:42.940 Absolutely.
00:41:43.480 He's fascinating.
00:41:44.700 Anyway,
00:41:45.320 we,
00:41:45.560 we go over there with a single pubic hair. 1.00
00:41:50.180 I wasn't allowed to fly down to my family holiday.
00:41:53.560 In Florida.
00:41:54.360 My parents had a house in Florida at the time.
00:41:56.480 I had to fly all the way back to the UK for one day and then fly back to the States after the kid,
00:42:04.040 by the way,
00:42:04.600 who essentially assaulted the girl.
00:42:06.300 He got found not guilty by the,
00:42:07.860 by the court,
00:42:08.660 by the jurors.
00:42:09.320 They,
00:42:09.480 they couldn't decide how that hair was found on her, 0.99
00:42:12.420 on the inside of her clothing attached to her body.
00:42:14.700 He said that he'd urinated in a particular place.
00:42:17.220 The hair had been secreted.
00:42:18.700 It went on to her inside of her clothing,
00:42:22.680 blah,
00:42:22.880 blah,
00:42:23.100 blah.
00:42:23.360 Anyway.
00:42:24.260 Did the kid ever commit another crime later on in life or no?
00:42:27.100 Yeah,
00:42:27.260 he got locked up.
00:42:28.000 In fact,
00:42:28.500 within three days,
00:42:29.660 he went out,
00:42:30.580 committed a robbery,
00:42:32.220 and he got locked up for five years.
00:42:33.720 Got it.
00:42:34.620 Good.
00:42:34.900 We get on a plane flying down Florida,
00:42:38.880 USA,
00:42:39.520 into Charlotte,
00:42:40.420 from Charlotte down to Tampa.
00:42:43.700 Excuse me.
00:42:44.540 Kids have got the FBI hats on.
00:42:47.380 So this isn't long after 9-11.
00:42:50.960 So everyone's a bit twitchy around it.
00:42:53.740 Guy walks up,
00:42:54.340 sits with the kids,
00:42:54.860 and the kids are about three rows back,
00:42:56.420 but they're in double seats sitting on their own.
00:42:59.060 We didn't want to sit with them.
00:43:00.000 We didn't have them sit with us.
00:43:01.060 They were a pain,
00:43:01.720 you know,
00:43:01.920 just,
00:43:02.460 oh,
00:43:02.700 can we have this,
00:43:03.220 can we have that?
00:43:03.700 So,
00:43:03.940 and the steward says,
00:43:05.380 um,
00:43:05.760 where'd you get the hats from,
00:43:06.620 guys?
00:43:06.880 Because he's got FBI hats.
00:43:07.660 He said,
00:43:07.780 oh,
00:43:07.920 my dad's just been out.
00:43:09.100 Our dad's just been out to Costa.
00:43:10.860 Brings over a bottle of whiskey.
00:43:12.600 Says,
00:43:12.820 we welcome law enforcement on USAir.
00:43:16.180 He's been my friend ever since.
00:43:18.540 Ever since.
00:43:19.140 Wow.
00:43:19.680 And I still keep,
00:43:20.220 he still lives in Charlotte,
00:43:21.260 and I still keep in.
00:43:21.980 That's cool.
00:43:22.900 That's cool.
00:43:23.520 Yeah,
00:43:23.680 it is cool.
00:43:24.120 It is cool.
00:43:24.520 But,
00:43:24.860 you know,
00:43:25.060 we're lucky.
00:43:25.620 Police,
00:43:25.960 police guys and girls are lucky.
00:43:27.700 It is a great job.
00:43:29.180 Despite the popular media giving them a kick in on a regular basis.
00:43:32.800 Some of it is deserved,
00:43:34.560 some of it's not.
00:43:35.700 Um,
00:43:36.380 it's still a great job.
00:43:38.240 Great job.
00:43:39.080 It's still a great job.
00:43:40.660 So,
00:43:40.900 you know,
00:43:41.220 I would be so curious to know,
00:43:43.920 who was the first person in your family that became a cop?
00:43:46.600 Um,
00:43:47.040 so,
00:43:47.860 um,
00:43:48.600 my grandmother's uncle left Ireland,
00:43:53.700 went to New York and became a flat foot up there.
00:43:55.960 That was in about 1928,
00:43:58.960 something like that.
00:44:01.120 Um,
00:44:03.200 my,
00:44:03.660 I had another uncle who joined the police service in 1934.
00:44:07.940 In fact,
00:44:09.040 I've still got family in the police today.
00:44:11.840 My nephew's still serving,
00:44:13.820 um,
00:44:14.340 as a civilian member of staff for the police service,
00:44:17.020 and I've still got family in the Irish place in the garden.
00:44:19.640 So,
00:44:20.180 and it's,
00:44:20.540 it's been like that since,
00:44:21.620 as I say,
00:44:22.080 at least 1934.
00:44:23.440 The only reason I said it is because whoever was the first person
00:44:26.180 probably sold the courier as so honorable and great
00:44:28.680 that others wanted to follow it because,
00:44:30.360 you know,
00:44:31.120 there,
00:44:31.340 there,
00:44:32.100 there has to be,
00:44:33.460 you know,
00:44:34.020 sometimes,
00:44:34.460 uh,
00:44:35.060 I have a friend of mine,
00:44:35.920 him and I joined the army together.
00:44:37.620 We got out.
00:44:38.740 Everybody was asking me,
00:44:39.680 how was the army?
00:44:40.380 Best decision I made in my life.
00:44:41.680 They asked him,
00:44:42.200 how was the army?
00:44:43.040 Worst decision I made in my life,
00:44:44.380 right?
00:44:45.140 And that guy's kids are probably never going to want to serve the military.
00:44:48.060 If my kids want to join the military,
00:44:49.240 I'm okay with it because the military really shaped,
00:44:51.880 uh,
00:44:52.120 my life in a big way.
00:44:54.060 Yeah.
00:44:54.340 So it's interesting hearing you say good things about the life of being a cop.
00:44:58.980 Well,
00:44:59.240 well,
00:44:59.520 Gladys Knight,
00:45:00.240 I mean,
00:45:00.480 I'm really into my music,
00:45:01.820 but she,
00:45:02.300 what is it she said?
00:45:03.240 Could it be that it was also very simple then,
00:45:05.360 or it's time rewritten every line.
00:45:07.300 And if we had the chance to do it all again,
00:45:09.400 tell me,
00:45:09.800 would we,
00:45:10.480 could we?
00:45:11.240 And yeah,
00:45:11.920 I would.
00:45:12.680 If I started again tomorrow,
00:45:14.740 I would go back and join the police service.
00:45:16.920 It is the greatest job that I've ever,
00:45:19.340 ever done.
00:45:19.900 Well,
00:45:20.100 I got to tell you,
00:45:20.700 I've enjoyed talking to you,
00:45:21.680 man.
00:45:22.000 This has been really,
00:45:23.180 uh,
00:45:24.080 uh,
00:45:24.580 insightful,
00:45:26.340 disturbing at the same time with some of the stories,
00:45:28.760 uh,
00:45:29.760 uh,
00:45:30.060 relieved to know that some folks got justice,
00:45:33.180 uh,
00:45:34.180 and,
00:45:34.800 uh,
00:45:35.220 grateful that some people like yourself choose to,
00:45:38.740 uh,
00:45:39.240 get into the profession that you're in because it's so necessary.
00:45:42.020 And I rest respect the folks in your world who do the good job,
00:45:45.460 do,
00:45:45.660 do,
00:45:45.820 do,
00:45:45.900 do the right way because the world without you would be a very difficult world and
00:45:50.280 very painful for many people out there.
00:45:51.940 So having said that,
00:45:53.120 thank you so much for being a guest on by entertainment.
00:45:54.820 Thank you,
00:45:55.940 sir.
00:45:56.220 It's been absolutely brilliant to meet you.
00:45:58.340 And,
00:45:58.700 uh,
00:45:58.880 when I'm down in Florida,
00:45:59.780 I will take you for a warm beer somewhere.
00:46:01.660 Oh no,
00:46:01.860 you drink cold beers down there.
00:46:03.020 Come on down. 0.94
00:46:03.840 It's all good.
00:46:04.520 Come on down. 0.94
00:46:04.960 I'd love to entertain you.
00:46:05.800 I'll host you.
00:46:06.340 If you're down here,
00:46:06.800 you just let me know.
00:46:07.900 I will be there.
00:46:09.060 I've got friends and clients down there.
00:46:11.180 I look forward to it.
00:46:12.500 Oh,
00:46:12.740 and same goes when you're in London,
00:46:15.280 I've got some very swanky places that I can take you.
00:46:18.060 Swanky places.
00:46:18.840 I'm curious to see some swanky places.
00:46:20.600 Yeah.
00:46:20.940 Well,
00:46:21.620 I don't know if it's,
00:46:23.020 I'm a volunteer at the tower of London.
00:46:24.640 Have you been to England?
00:46:26.300 I've been to England.
00:46:27.220 I've been to London.
00:46:28.040 I don't know if I've been to the tower of London.
00:46:29.900 I don't think I have.
00:46:31.240 Well,
00:46:31.560 every Tuesday night,
00:46:32.960 um,
00:46:33.400 they,
00:46:33.900 I'm there and they do a thing called the ceremony of the keys where they lock the
00:46:36.620 tower up and they have done for the past 700 years.
00:46:39.340 And if you want to come,
00:46:40.080 I'll take care of my guests.
00:46:41.140 I'd love to.
00:46:41.940 I'd love,
00:46:42.260 it's a beautiful city.
00:46:42.920 I have great experience when I go there.
00:46:44.420 So once again,
00:46:45.540 thank you so much.
00:46:46.200 Take care of yourself.
00:46:47.140 Nice to see you.
00:46:47.880 Take care.
00:46:48.380 Bye bye.
00:46:48.920 So thoughts,
00:46:50.000 would you want his job?
00:46:51.200 Would you want to do what he does?
00:46:52.520 Could you do what he does?
00:46:53.980 Some of those stories,
00:46:54.680 very dark stories,
00:46:55.780 right?
00:46:55.920 Do you agree with them that some people are born evil?
00:46:58.680 That was a very interesting answer that he gave.
00:47:00.460 Comment below.
00:47:01.300 If you enjoyed this interview,
00:47:02.160 you may also enjoy the interview with the detective I did,
00:47:05.000 who was working on the Biggie and Tupac case.
00:47:08.460 Greg Kading,
00:47:09.140 if you've never seen that one before,
00:47:11.560 probably one of the most interesting interviews I've ever done because I grew up listening to those two guys.
00:47:17.040 And we had all the different potential people involved in the murder.
00:47:21.340 And you see how it goes about pointing at who could have been behind the murder of Biggie and Tupac.
00:47:25.900 If you've never seen that,
00:47:26.680 it'd be very entertaining.
00:47:28.320 Click here to watch that.
00:47:29.540 Take care, everybody.
00:47:30.040 Bye bye.
00:47:35.000 Bye bye.