Valuetainment - Opioid Epidemic： How Big Pharma Created A Public Health Crisis

00:00:00.000 America has only 4.4% of world's population, only 4.4%, yet 31% of all opioid deaths that we have around the world is from U.S.

00:00:30.000 My guest today is Dr. Chris Johnson, who is an expert speaker on the opioid crisis, public health advocate, author, emergency physician.

00:00:45.240 And every week we talk about who we want to bring up to interview on what topic.

00:00:50.060 This opioid topic came up, you know, oxycodone, and many of us have either had direct experience with it or an indirect experience with it, a loss of a loved one.

00:00:59.100 It's very painful. But one of the statistics I saw, there's many different things we're going to get into.

00:01:04.640 One of the statistics I saw him talk about was the fact that America has only 4.4% of world's population, only 4.4%, yet 31% of all opioid deaths that we have around the world is from U.S.

00:01:20.220 So we want to find out why is U.S. This is not a statistic we want to be leading in, and he's the expert in this area.

00:01:26.340 So, Dr. Chris Johnson, thank you so much for making the time for being a guest on Vite Tainment.

00:01:30.480 Well, thank you for inviting me. I appreciate it.

00:01:32.680 Yeah, I mean, that talk you gave on TEDx, TED Talks, was what you had.

00:01:38.280 Obviously, you have a charisma, you have charm, but the statistics I was looking at, I'm like, you've got to be kidding me.

00:01:42.240 Why are we not talking about this?

00:01:43.560 So would you mind taking a moment and telling the audience your background?

00:01:47.500 Obviously, I have it here. You garnered the first Physician Award in 2017.

00:01:51.340 You've spoken to FDA advisory committees. You've spoken to a bunch of different groups.

00:01:57.320 But give us your history and what got you to be wanting to do more research on this specific topic.

00:02:03.760 Well, as you mentioned, my background is emergency medicine, and I'm a practitioner here in the Twin Cities in Minnesota.

00:02:11.420 And it might be a little bit unusual that some would find, like, why is an emergency medicine physician talking about this?

00:02:18.940 Shouldn't we be talking to a pain physician or should we be talking to addiction physicians?

00:02:23.160 And there certainly are experts in that area, too.

00:02:25.880 But what got me motivated to learn more about this was my own clinical practice in the early to mid-2000s, where I was going to work every day.

00:02:38.360 And I found that I really couldn't get through a shift without seeing a patient who was either having some sort of pain exacerbation or complication from opioids, maybe someone overdosing.

00:02:55.580 They needed me to give them either, like, Narcan, the antidote.

00:02:58.820 Sometimes I'd have to intubate them, put them on a ventilator.

00:03:01.140 But actually, more often than not, it was someone on high-dose opioids, such as OxyContin, plus Percocet, another opioid, a short-acting for a breakthrough.

00:03:10.840 And they were coming in because they were having breakthrough pain.

00:03:14.000 They were out of their opioids.

00:03:15.860 And I was looking around, I was like, why is this happening?

00:03:18.980 I don't remember this in my medical school training.

00:03:22.000 I don't remember this when I was training as what's called a resident physician, which is an apprentice physician.

00:03:26.520 But it's happening every shift now.

00:03:28.440 And I tried to invest, like, why is this, has it always been like this?

00:03:33.460 Or is this something new?

00:03:34.120 Are you asking people at that time?

00:03:35.480 Are you like that?

00:03:36.040 I'm asking myself.

00:03:37.240 I mean, for the most part, I'll be honest.

00:03:39.180 Most people are like, they're just like, oh, I guess this is what's happening.

00:03:41.660 This is how we're going to practice now.

00:03:42.980 And you just manage it.

00:03:44.360 Pretty wild.

00:03:45.360 And, you know, who knew how that happened?

00:03:48.380 But I sort of took it the next step.

00:03:50.240 And I investigated, is this different?

00:03:53.600 Or is it just, I've just been unaware and only becoming aware of something that's been going on for years and years.

00:03:57.980 And what I found was that it was, in fact, very different.

00:04:02.380 That in 1995, the United States was not like this.

00:04:07.900 Yes, you still have problems with opioid addiction.

00:04:10.840 You still had even opioid overdose deaths.

00:04:12.940 Okay.

00:04:13.620 But the country dramatically changed from 1995 to 2005.

00:04:18.440 The prescriptions for opioids massively increased.

00:04:23.220 And with the massive increase in the prescriptions, you had all these patients who now became dependent or had chronic pain on chronic opioids.

00:04:32.920 And they were having problems with it.

00:04:34.840 And so, my research at that time was mostly to investigate, is this real?

00:04:40.420 Is what I am seeing real?

00:04:43.580 And how did it happen?

00:04:45.600 And so, that became my motivation.

00:04:47.700 Mostly to see, like, what I was seeing every day was not corresponding to what I was taught as a physician in training.

00:04:55.780 That is, these medicines were effective.

00:04:57.740 They were safe.

00:04:58.880 And they had very low abuse potential.

00:05:01.660 And that wasn't what I was seeing every day.

00:05:04.360 Yeah.

00:05:04.940 What I did is, when you started talking, I said, okay, these stats, they don't make any sense to be this staggering.

00:05:12.300 So, I went to drugabuse.gov, drugabuse.gov.

00:05:16.720 And this is the stat that came up.

00:05:18.720 This is, as recent as 2019, national drug overdose deaths involving any opioids, number of among all ages, gender, 99 to 2019.

00:05:28.800 Great.

00:05:29.080 So, in 1999, it's less than 10,000.

00:05:32.280 Okay.

00:05:33.160 Then we go to 21,000 in 2010.

00:05:36.180 But then the dramatic upswing to 49,860.

00:05:39.600 And by the way, this is pre-COVID.

00:05:41.300 So, we can't say, well, during COVID, people are sitting around there and there are a lot of different pain.

00:05:44.840 I mean, this sudden, I mean, this is not a small trend here.

00:05:51.000 Some people would say this is even at a faster growth than the S&P 500.

00:05:54.820 Not some people would say.

00:05:55.920 It's accurate.

00:05:56.920 So, what caused this level of growth in Americans taking opioids?

00:06:02.760 Well, actually, and that graph is out of date.

00:06:05.540 If it included the year 2020, that number from 50,000 or just about 50,000 overdose deaths from opioids would be 70,000.

00:06:13.800 Holy moly.

00:06:15.700 So, while COVID happened, all right, the opioid epidemic got much worse.

00:06:22.880 Okay.

00:06:23.240 And so, even that graph, as dramatic as it is, is out of date.

00:06:29.440 And it's even worse now.

00:06:32.720 And if it went back farther from 1999, if it went back to like 1992, there were only about 6,000 deaths per year.

00:06:41.120 And about 4,000 were from prescription, another 2,000 from heroin.

00:06:45.320 And that had been stable going back into the 80s and even the 70s.

00:06:48.940 And then starting in the late 1990s, early 2000s, you saw it go up and up and up.

00:06:54.000 And that corresponds to when the treatment for chronic pain changed and we started prescribing opioids for back pain, for headaches, for arthritis.

00:07:02.520 And we exposed this massive new group in the patient population to opioids and caused a great many to become dependent or addicted at that time.

00:07:15.140 And then as we started to realize in the 2010s, around 2010, 2015, that prescriptions were the root cause of this increase in dependence and addiction and death.

00:07:29.420 And we started to level off the prescribing, but it was too late by then.

00:07:34.040 You had already created this population of people who now needed this.

00:07:38.620 And as their dependence got worse, as their addiction got worse, then they turned to things like heroin.

00:07:43.760 So, that's starting around the 2015, you see the heroin go up.

00:07:47.720 And then starting in like 2017, then you have the fentanyl come in.

00:07:54.200 And when you have this population that's dependent and now they are getting fentanyl from China and other places that have learned to manufacture this stuff and they ship it.

00:08:05.860 And then people who are selling on the, not the medical market, but the extra legal market to these patients who have become dependent from what we did.

00:08:16.080 That's where you have this explosion and overdose deaths because when they go outside the regular medical marketplace, you don't know what's in it.

00:08:24.900 And that's when you get people might find, they may think they're buying oxycodone pills, but they're actually oxycodone pills and there's fentanyl in there.

00:08:32.140 But they didn't, that's the danger.

00:08:34.040 So, that's why you have that dramatic increase even in the last five to eight years of deaths is because that's where it's coming from.

00:08:41.400 It's coming from the heroin and the illicit fentanyl.

00:08:43.420 Yeah, so how come, how come we're not, I mean, look, I saw the J&J lawsuit that took place, I think, started in 2019, 2020, October 13th.

00:08:55.640 And then July 21st, drug distributors and J&J reached $26 billion deal to end opioids lawsuits.

00:09:02.020 Are you seeing a major progress being made by both doctors?

00:09:08.400 Because you give credit to four reasons why this is taking place, right?

00:09:12.400 It wasn't just let's blame the pharmaceutical companies.

00:09:15.100 It was four different things that you talked about.

00:09:16.960 Are you seeing this being an issue that the folks at the top from the politics or whoever holds them accountable is bringing this up more?

00:09:24.500 Or are they kind of looking the other way from your experience?

00:09:27.280 My experience is that these settlements that you're talking about, and if you look closely at the settlements, you'll see that how many years that they're paid out over.

00:09:36.500 And it's oftentimes seven years, sometimes 10 years that they are making these, you know, these restitution payments.

00:09:44.200 OK, but understand that they've made billions and billions on their on their drugs, and they will continue to sell and make billions while they're making these payments.

00:09:54.260 So it's really just, yes, the number sounds big and you might say, well, it's better than nothing.

00:09:59.240 But it's a good business model.

00:10:02.960 I mean, no executives went to jail and none are going to jail.

00:10:06.680 You know, and the Sacklers, the ones who own Purdue Pharma, they just got a bankruptcy settlement and said earlier this month.

00:10:13.080 And they are immune to civil litigation for imperptuity now.

00:10:18.940 And they get to keep over their many billions they've made.

00:10:22.920 They get to keep all that.

00:10:24.260 And they never admitted wrongdoing.

00:10:25.720 So fines seems to be what pharmaceutical companies do and is seen as the cost of doing business.

00:10:33.060 And it's a good business decision if you're a pharmaceutical company or if you're a board or a shareholder.

00:10:38.520 Like, yes, you market these drugs.

00:10:41.040 They're not really approved for what you say they're using, but we're making a lot of money.

00:10:45.760 Eventually, someone will impose a fee, but it'll be far less than what we've made.

00:10:50.780 So that's a good business decision.

00:10:53.400 And what I want to point out to you and some of your viewers is that this is not the first time that has happened.

00:10:58.480 Other drugs have had similarly been marketed off-label, and I'm referring to a drug called Neurontin here.

00:11:05.060 It's just a very famous case.

00:11:06.980 Neurontin was marketed by Pfizer as a drug for seizure disorder if the other medicines weren't controlling it.

00:11:13.960 But then it got off-label marketed for everything from headaches to ADHD.

00:11:17.740 And because of that, it got so over-prescribed and made billions.

00:11:24.180 And they had to pay fines subsequently as well, several hundred million dollars.

00:11:28.540 But if you're paying 700 million dollars on a drug, you made billions per year.

00:11:33.820 That is a good business model.

00:11:36.000 You pay the fine.

00:11:37.160 No executives go to jail.

00:11:38.380 The shareholders are happy.

00:11:39.660 The only people that get harmed are the patients.

00:11:41.180 Yeah, so I'm looking at this.

00:11:44.380 You said at the arrangement, you're right.

00:11:46.080 Under this agreement, the country's three distributors would make payments of $21 billion over 18 years.

00:11:51.540 Johnson & Johnson would pay $5 billion over nine years.

00:11:54.000 So it's chump change to these guys.

00:11:56.760 But can you go back to the perpetuity, which means there is no lack of accountability.

00:12:02.460 Can you unpack what that means when they say it's in perpetuity?

00:12:06.940 So if something happens, if you can unpack that for the rest of us.

00:12:10.420 What that means is that according to, all right, and I am not a, I can't, I can't claim to be a bankruptcy legal expert.

00:12:17.920 Okay.

00:12:18.640 But according to the stories I've read about the bankruptcy filing in the state of New York for Purdue Pharma,

00:12:24.780 the Sacklers have been absolved of wrongdoing, and they may not be held accountable for any future civil litigation

00:12:32.320 due to the harm of their product that they caused through exposing them even irresponsibly.

00:12:37.760 And remember that Purdue Pharma had to pay, had to pay hundreds of millions back in like 2007

00:12:44.140 for irresponsible marketing of their product, even then.

00:12:47.480 So this is, there's nothing new about the irresponsible marketing they've, and they,

00:12:51.960 and they basically, they got away with it.

00:12:54.000 So, but here's my point.

00:12:55.140 So that's what it means is that.

00:12:56.360 How can they do that though?

00:12:58.060 Who allows them to do that?

00:12:59.500 Are these politicians who are helping them do that?

00:13:01.840 Who allows these contracts to be written in a way where they're protected?

00:13:04.860 Is it, it has to do with the, how the bankruptcy laws are written and they are written true by politicians,

00:13:10.940 but the, but remember that politicians are writing these laws that are often made,

00:13:15.380 put together by the lobbyists that represent the corporate business interests.

00:13:18.320 So they make the laws very favorable to the business interests.

00:13:22.740 Sure.

00:13:23.360 Sure.

00:13:24.000 And so that, and then you, then you can, now you've got the law in the books and you're like,

00:13:27.200 Hey, we'd like to do something, but this, you know, we can't because here's how it's written now.

00:13:30.860 And I'm like, eh, just, just out of curiosity, wasn't the vaccine also written the same way

00:13:35.460 as well in perpetuity that if something were to happen, there can't be a level of accountability

00:13:39.320 to J and J and Pfizer about what the vaccine.

00:13:43.440 Oh, I'll be honest.

00:13:44.980 I, I, I don't know.

00:13:46.000 I can't say, I don't know how that was.

00:13:47.600 I saw that where there's a similar accountability where, you know, if something were to happen,

00:13:53.780 say something, there's a reaction, they can't be held accountable either.

00:13:56.640 It, it protects them, but I want to go to this one site that gives stats on what else

00:14:02.380 is going on with opioids.

00:14:03.840 Um, here's a mass.gov, uh, four out of five people who use heroin began by misusing prescription

00:14:12.520 pain medications.

00:14:13.740 Uh, similar ones you're talking about, oxycontin, Vicodin, fueling commonly disprescribed pain

00:14:19.400 medications.

00:14:20.300 One in 14 reports they've misused or abused a prescription drug.

00:14:24.000 At least once I was asking my peers here right now, before we setting up the camera, I said,

00:14:27.400 how many of you guys have lost a friend to opioids?

00:14:30.420 Everybody raised their hand.

00:14:31.440 One of them was a teenager because she just got her hands on it.

00:14:34.200 I said, was it from the doctor or somebody else?

00:14:35.680 No, it was just a teenager.

00:14:36.980 One of her friends gave it to, she thought it was something else.

00:14:38.760 She took it.

00:14:39.220 Boom.

00:14:39.880 Uh, she lost her life.

00:14:41.060 Two out of, two out of three teens abusing prescription meds say they get them from family

00:14:45.860 or friends.

00:14:46.320 So I'll give you one story of a friend of mine.

00:14:48.420 And this is very close to me.

00:14:50.340 Best friend of mine, when I was in LA going to Glendale high school.

00:14:54.000 He, uh, uh, you know, started taking Vicodin and he was getting this Vicodin from a dentist

00:15:02.540 that was selling it to him and it was selling it for whatever the price was.

00:15:06.120 He started off with one, you know, he's having pain.

00:15:07.880 It's like, man, I'm really having this pain.

00:15:09.280 It went to two to five.

00:15:10.800 It got to a point where it's taking 10, 20 a day Vicodin.

00:15:13.420 Obviously we ended up losing them, uh, uh, years ago.

00:15:16.140 And I took him to rehab and it wasn't a good situation.

00:15:18.600 I remember one time we're at a, uh, uh, restaurant and he steps out right after we were done with

00:15:24.340 Bible study on a Friday.

00:15:25.300 And I'm trying to get this guy to kind of trying to figure out a way to change.

00:15:28.040 He goes to his car, pulls into his car and I sneak up on him to see where he's at.

00:15:32.380 Cause I knew when he would roll his, uh, when he would talk and I see, he pulls in to take

00:15:37.020 the Vicodin and I take it out of his hand.

00:15:39.440 I take the pills.

00:15:40.620 I've never heard anybody beg for anything in my life to give to them.

00:15:44.800 Never.

00:15:45.360 I've never heard anyone be this week to beg, to say, please give it to me.

00:15:50.260 I have so much pain.

00:15:51.600 Can you unpack the level of how addictive these opioids are when somebody starts?

00:15:57.880 So walk me through what the process is and where it goes next.

00:16:01.800 So, Hey, typically it's a doctor gives it to them.

00:16:04.180 Walk me through the process.

00:16:05.260 This is your world that you research.

00:16:06.660 What does that really look like?

00:16:07.900 Well, what I would, I would, I want to maybe back up on just a little bit here.

00:16:12.880 Okay.

00:16:13.440 What it, what is certainly true is that, um, three out of four people who, who three to

00:16:19.260 four, four to five, 75 to 80%.

00:16:21.040 That's about roughly like who move on to heroin began, uh, their use of opiates with a prescription.

00:16:27.560 And, uh, and I w I, I would also like maybe quantify or push back a little bit on misuse.

00:16:34.700 Um, what happens with opioids is that these are pharma pharmaceutical, these molecules mimic the

00:16:43.960 own opioids we make.

00:16:45.320 Okay.

00:16:45.600 We have receptors for these.

00:16:47.400 Okay.

00:16:47.820 But our brains are built for physiologic doses, small ones.

00:16:52.640 And then we're getting pharmaceutical doses, big ones.

00:16:57.280 Okay.

00:16:57.660 And the brain naturally pushes back.

00:17:00.780 The brain doesn't want to feel elation and euphoria all the time.

00:17:04.200 It pushes back almost immediately and says, this is not normal.

00:17:08.000 And what we know is that very quickly, when you start exposing yourself to opioids is your

00:17:13.540 brain starts to change and it stops responding to them.

00:17:16.760 And it actually develops these processes called opponent processes where they don't work so

00:17:21.280 well.

00:17:21.740 And there was a very important study done in 2016 by the Kaiser foundation and the Washington

00:17:26.680 post that shows people who are exposed to opioids report becoming dependent or addicted

00:17:31.200 in as little as two months.

00:17:32.760 That's how fast it works.

00:17:35.200 So it's not so much that they are misusing them.

00:17:37.900 What they're finding is that they are being told they work for pain and then very quickly

00:17:42.680 find out, well, one isn't working for pain anymore.

00:17:45.580 Now I need two for pain.

00:17:47.120 Now I need five for pain.

00:17:49.140 And so it can be better character.

00:17:51.560 This is natural physiologic homeostasis.

00:17:54.840 And what homeostasis means in medicine biology is that the body wants stability.

00:18:00.260 So these medicines are not working like they were supposed to because the body is pushing

00:18:05.800 back.

00:18:06.300 And so that's what happens when a person, again, like your friends, starts it out for tooth

00:18:09.960 pain and one was fine.

00:18:11.380 Now they need three.

00:18:12.680 And it hijacks the brain's own opioid system.

00:18:16.280 Your own reward system gets hijacked by these chemicals such that now you make almost no

00:18:24.600 opioid yourself.

00:18:25.980 Your endorphins, your natural opioids stop getting made.

00:18:29.580 The brain is pushing back on their effect.

00:18:32.080 And so now when you are without them, your brain says, I feel awful.

00:18:36.760 Do something.

00:18:38.160 And so that might've led to that episode where your friend is begging because they were in

00:18:42.440 pure misery because the molecule that everyone sort of almost takes for granted, you've got

00:18:48.520 a regular amount of it keeping you feeling normal, that feeling of normal is gone.

00:18:53.120 And that's how dangerous and how destructive they can be that in as little as two months,

00:18:57.900 you can change the brain enough to become dependent.

00:19:00.580 Would you say the closest thing to, if we were to make a reference, not closest thing to how

00:19:06.420 addictive it is, but is it kind of like when a bodybuilder or somebody does steroids and

00:19:12.000 their testosterone, they're no longer producing testosterone naturally and they stay on it for

00:19:16.740 one month, two months, three months.

00:19:18.120 Let's just say they cycle, they go six months, 12 months and the body, when they get off of

00:19:22.900 it, the skin gets yellow.

00:19:24.180 The body doesn't know how to produce testosterone. 0.98

00:19:26.220 Would that be a similar way to look at where your body forgot how to produce that testosterone? 0.94

00:19:32.400 Yeah.

00:19:32.580 I think that's actually, that's a very good sort of analogy.

00:19:36.420 You might say that sort of a bodybuilder, let's say a male bodybuilder in particular,

00:19:40.780 you know, the sort of, now I'm not a, I like fitness.

00:19:46.000 I do fitness, but I'm not a bodybuilder and I, and I've never done testosterone, but since

00:19:51.020 your testicles make testosterone, what bodybuilders find is that the more they get testosterone 0.99

00:19:55.180 through a shot, you know, from out, from their environment, the testicles shrink. 0.98

00:20:00.420 Okay. 0.92

00:20:01.120 And that's just the body's natural response.

00:20:03.400 Okay.

00:20:03.920 Why would I bother making all my own testosterone?

00:20:06.900 I'm getting it from the environment.

00:20:08.200 We're going to shut this down.

00:20:09.480 And so, yes, that is exactly the same mechanism.

00:20:12.480 The body realizes it's getting this compound.

00:20:15.460 It doesn't need to make it.

00:20:16.680 So it stops.

00:20:18.580 Who is the most powerful person that is bringing this up and wanting to do something about it?

00:20:27.460 If you were to name a couple of people, when I mean powerful, I mean, somebody that can

00:20:30.980 really move, you know, that can do something about it.

00:20:34.840 I mean, we've, we've, we've got, you know, we've had, you know, the government, governor

00:20:46.440 of Minnesota put together this pain pill problem summit back in 2015.

00:20:52.340 The state of Minnesota is actually involved in a, in a very important effort to bring a

00:20:58.040 physician prescribing under control.

00:20:59.760 I work for the department of human services, opioid prescribing work group, and we're actually

00:21:03.720 now reviewing prescriptions by doctors all over the state and giving them feedback for

00:21:10.100 the first time ever.

00:21:10.820 I mean, even I'm getting feedback, like I never knew how much I was prescribing relative

00:21:15.440 to my other emergency medicine doctors.

00:21:17.540 Now I get a report card every year that shows how many am I prescribing?

00:21:22.120 What are my peers prescribing?

00:21:23.280 Um, so that's a very powerful effort that is being led by the state of Minnesota.

00:21:28.240 I don't know if it's being done in other states.

00:21:31.060 Um, you know, I, I, I can't say that I know anyone who's really bringing the medical industry

00:21:37.840 to heal.

00:21:38.600 It's sort of, you know, or, or to, to, to control it.

00:21:41.300 It's sort of being left on its own to try and regulate itself and, and self-regulation

00:21:45.000 doesn't have a great track record, uh, in this country, whether it's medicine or banking.

00:21:50.180 Um, you know, part of, part of the problem, part of the problem is that if you'll look

00:21:57.100 up at the top five lobbying contributors in this, in this country, it's the American

00:22:02.340 Medical Association, the American Hospital Association, and pharma are in the top five

00:22:06.500 each and every year.

00:22:07.540 I've seen that.

00:22:08.760 And as a consequence, some of the changes that we might want to see to make medicine more,

00:22:14.200 more, uh, responsible, such as, um, let's interrupt the financial relationships between

00:22:19.780 pharmaceutical companies and doctors.

00:22:21.680 Let's stop having, you know, uh, just regular fee for service payment that just encourages

00:22:26.700 chronic consumption of healthcare.

00:22:28.780 These things that might, um, reduce the, the sort of business incentive just to keep the

00:22:36.000 process going in medicine.

00:22:36.920 None of that is really happening as far as I can tell.

00:22:39.580 Um, not that senators aren't worried about it.

00:22:42.640 We have multiple senators and Congress, people who know friends that know family have had problems,

00:22:46.820 but in terms of changing the overall marketplace, I can't say that I've seen anything.

00:22:51.880 Why, why do you think, I mean, look, I'm looking at right now, Johnson and Johnson, they've said

00:22:54.900 they, uh, suspended supporting any political donations in 2021.

00:22:58.420 But if I go and look at their 2019 and 2020, 2019, they gave lobbyists, uh, uh, 5.83 million

00:23:06.440 dollars in 2020 was 5.57 million dollars.

00:23:09.180 At the top is Biden, $370,000 second is Trump 106.

00:23:14.900 So they gave four times more to Biden than Trump.

00:23:17.060 Then it's DNC services core, democratic senatorial, Republican senatorial.

00:23:21.680 So it's not like it's, it's, uh, four red.

00:23:25.220 It is a six blue that they're giving money to.

00:23:29.240 If we were to say which side politically they're supporting.

00:23:31.960 Um, and this is public info.

00:23:33.700 People can find this kind of stuff, but look.

00:23:35.740 And I would say this, like, if you look at the, I mean, remember that, that top five

00:23:40.000 list, you know, you, uh, uh, including those, that goes back year after year, whoever is

00:23:44.480 in power, I'm aware of this, they give to both sides.

00:23:50.180 They have an incentive to make sure that whoever, I wonder who they give to more because of why

00:23:54.800 I wonder if they give right more, if they give left more, I don't know if you've ever

00:23:58.660 investigated this because I think there has to be a reason why nobody in power is bringing

00:24:04.480 this up.

00:24:05.260 Why?

00:24:05.720 I mean, look, we can sit there and, uh, when there's a presidential, uh, uh, person that's

00:24:11.320 running, say governor's running, they typically campaign around something.

00:24:15.160 So we're going to camp Obama around Obamacare.

00:24:17.980 Okay, fine.

00:24:18.540 That's what he's campaigning around.

00:24:19.820 Jimmy Carter, human rights.

00:24:21.220 Fine.

00:24:22.040 You got oil, you got immigration, you got wall, you got drugs, you got fight against drugs.

00:24:28.760 You got, how come we're not, if we're talking 70,000, right?

00:24:32.400 You're saying 70,000 in 2020 statistics came out that out of the 660 something thousand

00:24:37.960 people, this was public info out of 661,000 people that died from COVID 5% died with COVID

00:24:45.220 being the leading indicator.

00:24:46.660 So 5% of 660, you're talking about 33,000 people died as a leading cause being COVID.

00:24:53.640 You're talking 70,000 died last year, leading cause in opioids.

00:24:57.800 How come no one's calling the alarm?

00:25:00.300 How come I don't see it on CNN, Fox, MSNBC wise is, are they afraid of bringing it up or

00:25:05.440 is everybody kind of like hush hush because they're giving us money for campaigns and commercials?

00:25:09.400 Well, there, I mean, I mean, some have been doing documentaries on this.

00:25:13.760 I think there was the forgotten epidemic.

00:25:15.620 I forget if it was CNN or MSNBC, but understand that when you have privately fund campaigns

00:25:20.960 that are routinely in the millions, tens of millions, maybe hundreds of millions, these

00:25:25.900 are largely privately funded.

00:25:28.180 They mean, whether you're right or whether you're left, you are often getting corporate

00:25:32.840 donations or corporate interest group donations.

00:25:36.400 And when you, when you take someone's money, it's very difficult to tell them no, or to

00:25:43.300 act contrary to their interest.

00:25:45.580 And these major donors give to both sides so that whoever ends up in power, they don't

00:25:52.480 mess, they don't mess with those, the healthcare system, which right now is very lucrative.

00:25:57.220 And as you probably know, the United States healthcare industry is over $3 trillion a year

00:26:03.060 by itself.

00:26:05.200 That's the fifth largest economy in the, in the world, just the, just healthcare.

00:26:09.240 And what you also might know is that we live about the same number of years as they do in

00:26:15.820 Greece.

00:26:16.620 And they spend a third of that per person.

00:26:20.700 So it's not like the, the, the patient in the United States is actually getting a good

00:26:24.820 return on, on, on the cost.

00:26:26.360 So we have a very expensive system that is not giving us life expectancy in return.

00:26:31.800 And we have a political system that is often dependent on private donations.

00:26:35.980 And so when they make their, whichever side gets the money, they don't mess with this system.

00:26:41.480 And there are many calling for reform.

00:26:43.400 I think it was a John McCain who called for campaign finance reform as well.

00:26:47.680 Sort of getting the money out of campaigns would then make candidates more responsive to

00:26:51.820 the needs of a population as opposed to the needs of corporate imperatives.

00:26:55.100 Yeah.

00:26:56.520 So, so how much deeper are you going with this?

00:26:59.400 I'm curious because are you, are you going surface level where it's like, look, here's

00:27:05.480 what's going on.

00:27:06.600 Let's have somebody else go and figure out a way to address this.

00:27:09.380 Are you somebody that's saying, here's what's going on?

00:27:11.960 And you're making the phone call and you're setting up the meetings to present this to the

00:27:15.120 decision makers.

00:27:15.900 So the guys, can we do something about this?

00:27:17.400 This is real.

00:27:17.840 So how deep are you going with this issue?

00:27:20.040 I'm curious.

00:27:22.420 I'm going as deep as I possibly can.

00:27:27.520 I would, I would say that in my role for the Minnesota department of human services and,

00:27:32.900 and, and, and, and being part of that effort, as far as our legislation to bring better prescribing,

00:27:38.780 um, I am taking that to as high as I can on that level.

00:27:44.300 Now, do I have the ear of, you know, literate leaders and decision makers here?

00:27:50.880 I probably don't.

00:27:53.000 Um, I make it a point to attend the conferences.

00:27:56.880 And when I see people from the DEA come and speak, uh, uh, and I, and I have meetings

00:28:01.180 occasionally with people like, you know, represented Vanjie Craig, believe me, I believe me,

00:28:06.400 I try, um, but, but I, I, I can't say that I have the ear of the, of those kinds of decision

00:28:14.740 makers, though I am open to any and all anyone who will listen, I will speak to.

00:28:20.940 Yeah.

00:28:21.360 I mean, I just think if so, uh, it's fair to say these numbers are not fake, right?

00:28:25.540 So, I mean, if the government's given us the stats, you're looking at 70,000 people.

00:28:29.600 And in 1999, it was 10,000 people.

00:28:32.020 Okay.

00:28:32.380 So if we go from 10 to 70,000 and everybody has a story there, so it's a, it's a, it's

00:28:38.340 a level drug below heroin.

00:28:40.840 And we all know what happens when a person gets heroin.

00:28:43.540 I had a person that told me it's tougher to get off of Vicodin than it is to get off of

00:28:47.660 heroin.

00:28:48.060 You know, it's always been heroin is what's tougher to get off of.

00:28:51.180 Historically, it's always been heroin is tough to get off of instead of Vicodin.

00:28:54.620 Uh, how hard is it for somebody once, once they're in too deep to get off of the addiction

00:29:00.080 they have to the opioid?

00:29:00.980 Um, it is very hard.

00:29:05.520 Um, I guess I don't have the stats on how long it would take this opioid versus that

00:29:11.960 opioid.

00:29:12.860 Um, we do have treatment for opioid addiction, which, uh, I talk about, um, uh, I mean, I

00:29:19.500 don't know if I could get into it much in my Ted talk.

00:29:21.240 I was only had, I had like 18 minutes.

00:29:23.420 Um, but the, but medical assisted therapy, that's the methadone, that's the buprenorphine.

00:29:28.200 Um, we know that those treatments are available for people who have opioid dependence, opioid

00:29:32.780 addiction.

00:29:33.660 Um, but understand that, um, it doesn't get, it doesn't make things whole again.

00:29:38.980 They, they don't get rid of the change neural pathways.

00:29:41.800 They reduce the cravings so that the people aren't miserable, but the, but the physiologic

00:29:46.960 and the neuro neurophysiologic changes of addiction persist.

00:29:49.980 Um, the study that I quote often to people who are trying to get off those drugs is that

00:29:54.440 methadone and buprenorphine reduce your risk by about a third to a half in the first year.

00:30:00.640 Okay.

00:30:01.960 That's significant, but it's not nothing.

00:30:04.180 You're the risk of overdose is still very high.

00:30:07.540 Um, and if you look at all cause mortality, not just overdose deaths, but all cause mortality,

00:30:13.060 the risk of death, if you develop use disorder, even getting treatment is about one in five

00:30:17.920 and 10 years, one in five and 10 years, because people who have developed addiction also develop

00:30:24.680 higher rates of cardiovascular disease.

00:30:26.200 They get higher rates of cancer.

00:30:27.660 They get higher rates of hepatitis.

00:30:29.560 They, those also are, can be very dangerous.

00:30:31.480 So addiction is not just overdose, all the dangerous life things that happen to you when

00:30:36.100 you're in the midst of addiction happened to you at a higher rate too.

00:30:39.100 Um, I want to go back at least one thing to say about like getting the ear of decision makers.

00:30:44.260 Um, what I would, what I would also say to you, and I think I sent you the, the, the, uh, the information

00:30:52.120 is that even the American medical association is compromised by relationships with the pharmaceutical

00:31:00.420 industry at their board of trustees meeting in 2019.

00:31:04.140 And I brought up their meeting minutes and I sent them along the American medical association.

00:31:08.920 The loudest voice of doctors is partners with Mallinckrodt.

00:31:13.220 They're partners with Teva.

00:31:15.060 They're partners with pharma.

00:31:16.760 Um, so when I, you try to have, you know, you, you try to have a loud voice and reach

00:31:22.760 our politicians and decision makers, understand there's nothing I'm going to do.

00:31:25.840 That's going to have a louder voice than the president of the AMA, but the AMA is compromised

00:31:30.280 by relationships with pharma, which makes the independent voice of protest difficult to

00:31:36.140 be heard.

00:31:36.900 Do you trust the AMA?

00:31:39.360 No.

00:31:40.400 Do you trust CDC?

00:31:41.240 Uh, I don't think the CDC is compromised by financial conflicts of interest the way

00:31:46.400 the AMA is, but I, I don't, um, I, I can't say I've looked at their meeting minutes.

00:31:51.700 I mean, if you, I can pull it up right now who funds CDC and you'd be shocked by who funds,

00:31:56.280 uh, uh, CDC and world health organization.

00:31:59.320 So, so, so you, you don't trust them because you think they're compromised by big pharma.

00:32:04.640 I would say that, you know, when you see that on, they have something called a corporate round

00:32:08.260 table and Teva is there, Mallinckrodt's there, pharma is there, all these pharmaceutical companies

00:32:13.080 are there.

00:32:14.160 Um, that is why you've never actually seen the AMA, the American Medical Association come

00:32:20.320 out with a statement, you know, say as early as 2010 saying, you know, in, in looking at

00:32:25.660 the, at the, at the record, we do not see that opioids are providing the benefit of long

00:32:30.600 lasting pain control without risk.

00:32:32.200 Um, we make a statement that no, no physician should start further patients on these medications,

00:32:37.680 uh, with the goal of being on them long-term.

00:32:40.100 They've never said that not in 2010, not in 2015, not in 2020.

00:32:45.720 If you look at what the statements of medical organizations typically do is they, they, they

00:32:50.060 trump access to treatment, right?

00:32:52.920 There, that means they would like to do their best to solve it, but in a way of solving it,

00:32:57.360 that still allows them to sell more healthcare.

00:32:59.960 Um, so you've never heard, had them call out, you know, the science on, on the pain medicine

00:33:06.460 saying, look, this was not good science.

00:33:08.240 We didn't, we shouldn't have been doing this.

00:33:10.340 Um, and in that sense, I do not think they're, they're, uh, uh, their voice is uncompromised.

00:33:15.840 They, they, they are protecting their financial relationships.

00:33:18.720 Yeah.

00:33:19.120 I just pulled up CDC foundation.

00:33:20.660 You talk about Pfizer, uh, you know, all the main ones, Gates foundation.

00:33:25.540 I think even J and J, a lot of these guys are also backing those guys up.

00:33:28.760 You know, what, what makes it difficult when someone like you comes up and you're sharing

00:33:33.260 these things, uh, the, the tough part becomes, who do you trust?

00:33:38.400 Do you sit there and trust these independent organizations that are supposed to do what's

00:33:44.020 best for us yet behind closed doors?

00:33:45.820 They're being funded by these big corporations that can, like you said, if somebody gives you

00:33:50.960 money, how hard is it to say no to it?

00:33:52.620 Right.

00:33:52.840 It's not a lot of statesmen left around nowadays.

00:33:55.400 It's just who funded me.

00:33:56.460 And let me be loyal to them because if I don't get reelected, how am I going to get this money

00:34:00.320 to get reelected?

00:34:01.220 I need their support to help me out.

00:34:02.940 Who do people trust?

00:34:07.100 Oh, and I don't even, maybe I said it in my Ted talk too, but like there's lots of studies

00:34:12.120 showing that it doesn't take much to change a doctor's prescribing, you know, about a $20

00:34:16.440 lunch is all it takes.

00:34:17.820 Um, I think there was a journal, the American medical study, yeah, $20 for a lunch is all

00:34:23.740 it takes.

00:34:24.680 Um, and in 2019, the journal of the medical association published a study.

00:34:29.100 These guys looked county by county where, where, where, where there was more frequent

00:34:34.140 gifts to doctors by pharmaceutical companies.

00:34:37.000 There was increased opioid prescribing and increased opioid death.

00:34:42.100 It's tough to read.

00:34:43.560 Okay.

00:34:44.000 Because I've, I've been able to practice medicine my entire career without, without accepting

00:34:47.700 any gifts, you know, in the securities industry, but I would, but I would, I would, I would

00:34:52.880 say that it's, it's, you want, you, there are good people in medicine.

00:34:59.360 There are ethical people in medicine, but what I say, and when I give my talks, I try to remind

00:35:04.160 it's very often what you have are good people in systems where they're, they have bad incentives.

00:35:09.760 They have incentives not to do the right thing point.

00:35:13.140 Very good point.

00:35:13.880 So good people with bad incentives.

00:35:15.460 So the compensation structure is set up in a way where they're tempted to do the wrong

00:35:20.580 thing and to be influenced by it.

00:35:22.100 That's a scary thought, you know, this is, we saw that in Wells Fargo.

00:35:26.300 Like they, I totally get it.

00:35:27.940 I totally get it.

00:35:28.800 I mean, yeah, of course, with the credit card, I totally get the whole, I don't know

00:35:31.900 what the number was.

00:35:32.540 It was a ludicrous amount, but you know, one thing they did in the financial industry, again,

00:35:35.880 I'm giving you this stuff that maybe, you know, you, you, if you're in this world, you

00:35:40.000 can bring it up to others.

00:35:41.260 If I'm securities licensed, you know, what my limit is for gifts.

00:35:46.060 I can't give you, I can't get you a gift more than a hundred dollars per year.

00:35:50.920 So I'm limited, right?

00:35:52.560 What if they put a gift limited to doctors?

00:35:55.920 What if you can't give them gifts?

00:35:58.260 What if it can't come with that?

00:36:00.020 Now I know the sales part is kind of taken out, but you are dealing with someone's health

00:36:04.240 and life.

00:36:05.500 So should there be an incentive to get the, I don't know.

00:36:09.400 I think it's a different story when I'm dealing with investments versus someone's health.

00:36:13.360 I don't know if I'm comfortable for the doctor to get a gift by a pharmaceutical salesman.

00:36:17.460 It's kind of weird.

00:36:18.340 I don't know.

00:36:18.660 Well, there, I mean, there are limits to gifts, but, but understand that there's, it's,

00:36:23.600 it's a very sneaky history about what then compromise, a gift.

00:36:27.480 Okay.

00:36:27.820 And you can start to have, you can bend the rules.

00:36:30.180 Okay.

00:36:30.560 So say you're not giving this doctor a gift, you're paying them to teach.

00:36:37.160 And all of a sudden these paid speaking gigs constitute teaching.

00:36:43.120 They're not gifts, but for there for a couple thousand dollars.

00:36:46.140 And you might remember the case of Insys Pharmaceuticals, that is I-N-S-Y-S.

00:36:53.180 And they were found to have a sham teaching or speaking program where the people on the,

00:36:58.940 on the speaking program were high prescribers.

00:37:01.060 And they got paid to give these quote unquote talks often with only their office staff and

00:37:06.440 they would get paid.

00:37:07.140 So while there are gifts and there, there is the Physician Payment Sunshine Act where

00:37:12.600 you can go look it up and there's limits.

00:37:15.020 You can sort of get around this and say like, okay, we're, we're, this is technically teaching

00:37:19.520 or this is some other service that is not a gift, but it's, you know, we compensate for

00:37:24.000 that.

00:37:25.080 You know, you have, you have, you know, this is also true in the device industry where you

00:37:27.900 will have orthopedic surgeons on the boards of, of device companies with a new artificial

00:37:32.940 hip and then that surgeon puts in that particular hip.

00:37:36.920 So you, you have it when, when there is, you can have these conflicts of interest in a number

00:37:41.380 of ways that circum circumnavigates the definition of a gift, but I, yeah, that's an ongoing issue.

00:37:49.260 Yeah.

00:37:49.740 I mean, if, if this is what you study and this is what you talk about and there still isn't

00:37:55.040 anybody in power that is willing to talk about this and bring it up, I've never heard

00:37:59.920 it.

00:38:00.040 I've never heard anybody get up and as a politician, a governor, a president, a candidate

00:38:05.100 getting up, we have to fix the opioid crisis.

00:38:07.780 Okay.

00:38:08.060 How, what do we do?

00:38:10.100 So what can we do at this point?

00:38:12.140 You mentioned the four things, right?

00:38:14.060 What can we do at this point to address this?

00:38:18.200 Well, on a, on a individual level or individual patient level.

00:38:22.020 Okay.

00:38:22.520 I would want anyone who watches this talk, watches you, watches anyone.

00:38:27.080 Okay.

00:38:27.780 Understand that the data is, is convincing.

00:38:31.500 Okay.

00:38:31.860 We've done, we now have, we should have done the study 25 years ago and we didn't, but

00:38:35.800 we've done it recently in 2018.

00:38:37.280 We've done a blinded trial to see, do opioids work after a year?

00:38:41.840 And they don't that, that was the space trial S P A C E. 0.88

00:38:46.660 So for someone, you know, who's got back pain, joint pain, understand that they should not

00:38:52.220 be taking opioids with the intention of ongoing treatment and therefore they can protect themselves.

00:38:57.140 Okay.

00:38:57.540 I would also let them know that don't even take it for two months or even one month, your

00:39:01.280 risk of becoming dependent goes, is extremely, goes up to like one third.

00:39:05.680 So if you're going to take these medicines, say for like, you've got a, you know, a broken

00:39:10.640 bone, kidney stone, absolutely.

00:39:14.380 You can take them then, but you, with the goal of being off of them quickly, you take

00:39:17.300 it for like a week, maybe two, if it's bad.

00:39:19.740 Okay.

00:39:20.520 But the goal is to get off of them.

00:39:22.040 What we also need to do in the immediate term here is, is find a, you know, compassionate

00:39:29.840 treatment for those who probably, you know, through no fault of their own, started these

00:39:34.580 medications.

00:39:35.140 We're told they weren't nearly as dangerous as we thought and became dependent and now

00:39:39.500 we're addicted and now they are using, we need to find ways to get them the treatment

00:39:43.640 they need.

00:39:44.100 Not, you know, not because it's going to cure them, but we were trying to minimize the risk

00:39:49.320 of damage and give them as long and happy life as possible.

00:39:51.700 And that's through things like addiction services, addiction treatment, medical assisted

00:39:54.820 therapy.

00:39:57.040 Those are the things we can do on an individual level and we can do as a, as a, as on a medical

00:40:01.260 level.

00:40:03.420 I still want to reform a political system that caters to the business interests of medicine.

00:40:11.100 I was hoping for like congressional, I was, I was ready to go, I'll go to Congress and

00:40:15.160 talk to them like they did for the mortgage backed securities crisis.

00:40:17.880 Why haven't you yet?

00:40:19.680 They haven't had those.

00:40:20.800 They have not had those hearings on the opioid crisis.

00:40:23.320 I would absolutely have gone.

00:40:26.240 What's the process for you to recommend it?

00:40:29.700 What's the process for you to get enough signatures?

00:40:31.860 What's the process for you to get enough people to say, because listen, 70,000 people died in

00:40:38.460 2020 based on the stat, right?

00:40:40.360 That's 70,000 people's brother, sister, cousin, daughter, son, mom, dad, best friend.

00:40:48.800 In one year.

00:40:49.980 In one year we're talking about, right?

00:40:52.060 And no one's even talking about it.

00:40:53.400 If that's a stat, how many signatures do you need to get on the congressional to be able to

00:40:57.820 talk about this stuff?

00:40:58.520 Because when I watch your TED talks, you know, what's the first thing I asked myself?

00:41:01.640 Here's the first thing I asked myself.

00:41:03.500 I said, this thing's got 45,000 views.

00:41:06.380 What?

00:41:07.180 Yeah, that's nothing.

00:41:08.040 It's a two-year-old video.

00:41:09.540 How the hell does this thing only have 40, 45,000 views is not going to make an impact.

00:41:13.440 So what do you need to do to get in front of congressional to get enough people's

00:41:16.900 attentions to say, hey, we kind of want to see what the Congress wants to do about this?

00:41:20.400 I have had relationships with Congress members, you know, Klobuchar.

00:41:31.160 I've spoken with her.

00:41:31.980 I've spoken with Angie Craig and given talks about this.

00:41:37.140 I don't have, I can't say I have the voice to sort of just call their office and say,

00:41:43.040 let's have a meeting.

00:41:43.960 I don't have that kind of.

00:41:45.940 Have you tried that?

00:41:47.040 I have.

00:41:48.280 How many people?

00:41:49.260 Um, my local representatives.

00:41:51.960 I think you've got to go more than that.

00:41:53.400 I think you've got to play a little bit of offense, maybe go buy a sales book and make

00:41:58.480 the phone call, send the emails, because I think this is that important of a thing that

00:42:01.700 if you've done research on it, you have way more credibility than a guy like me to go and

00:42:05.480 talk about this.

00:42:06.100 I just have pain in my heart because the person I lost, I love dearly.

00:42:10.360 Like I love that.

00:42:11.980 I miss that person. 0.99

00:42:12.960 I lost that person because of this bullshit and it should never happen. 0.97

00:42:15.920 So, uh, I, I don't have your kind of influence, uh, uh, in regards, I don't have the doctor 0.99

00:42:20.960 in front of my name.

00:42:22.340 This is your world that you're studying.

00:42:24.220 I think I would encourage, I'm a nobody to encourage you to do this.

00:42:27.640 You're living in your own world.

00:42:28.640 You have your own family, things that you're doing.

00:42:30.120 I would encourage you to, uh, play a little bit more offense to bring this up.

00:42:34.720 By the way, have you reached out to both sides of the aisle?

00:42:36.880 It sounds like it's only Democrats you're reaching out to.

00:42:39.980 Oh, but those are the ones in Minnesota that are local.

00:42:42.820 Okay.

00:42:43.660 Maybe reach out to the other side, maybe somebody on the other side, maybe reach out to if McCain

00:42:48.040 was talking about this, maybe reach out to his daughter, maybe reach out to, I think

00:42:52.000 if you play the laws of numbers and say, can you watch this?

00:42:54.960 Please call me.

00:42:56.040 I have some stats I want to share with you.

00:42:57.720 I think someone's going to say, yes, I'm just saying, if this is, I, I, I am not, I

00:43:04.940 am not, I don't have business training.

00:43:06.400 I don't have media relations training.

00:43:08.180 I don't, all I know is my, we're like, this is what I'm seeing.

00:43:11.520 Here's why it's happening.

00:43:12.620 And I've got data to back it up.

00:43:14.180 I think that I don't, I don't have, I can't say that I have the, I haven't been trained

00:43:20.480 on the skillset to get that message out there more effectively.

00:43:23.640 And I am open to any and all in terms of how does one, how does one go about promotion

00:43:29.640 of that and get an audience?

00:43:31.600 That's absolutely what I'd be interested in.

00:43:33.860 You got a great story.

00:43:35.200 You got, you got something you're talking about that if 70 million died just last year, 70,000

00:43:41.080 year, 70, I'm sorry.

00:43:42.260 My policy 70,000 died last year, 50,000 a year before.

00:43:45.640 Let's say it's 400,000 people in the last eight years.

00:43:49.660 Okay.

00:43:49.780 Let's just put that number, give or take, right?

00:43:51.920 400,000, the individual that dies, how many people do they have that love them?

00:43:57.100 That's dear friends or family to them.

00:43:59.320 Let's just say eight per 400,000.

00:44:02.300 That's 3.2 million people.

00:44:03.940 You got millions of people that are interested in this kind of being heard by the people at

00:44:08.480 the top.

00:44:08.980 And if I ask you a question, I say, who's the most powerful person that's talking about

00:44:12.080 this?

00:44:12.900 You couldn't even come up with one name.

00:44:14.480 10 seconds, you were stuttering because you couldn't think of somebody.

00:44:17.740 I think there's millions of people that would like to see this be more of an important subject

00:44:23.540 to be talked about.

00:44:24.420 Maybe team up with somebody that's a good marketer, good on social media, good on the

00:44:28.440 emails, good on contact and good in sales and see if that person can help you get in

00:44:32.780 front of those guys.

00:44:33.500 But I think you're, I mean, we're doing our part.

00:44:35.240 This is our platform.

00:44:36.080 Your message is going to be out there and God knows how many people are going to reach out

00:44:38.580 to you because they're going to say, I heard the message.

00:44:40.600 I'd love to help.

00:44:41.240 But on top of that, I think there'd be other people that you can play offense with to get

00:44:45.480 in front of the right people.

00:44:47.240 Well, I'm all for increasing the urgency behind this.

00:44:51.880 Obviously, I mean, COVID has, you know, almost 700,000, okay, in the last year and a half.

00:44:58.060 So, I mean, it has basically, you know, it has taken the public health spotlight, obviously.

00:45:03.580 But this other problem has not gone away.

00:45:05.200 But that's why I can't say, do I know what drugs are, who's working on this right now?

00:45:08.780 Because all the public health resources right now have been dedicated to COVID.

00:45:11.920 You may not understandably so, but there's this other urgent need that hasn't gone away.

00:45:17.360 And I'm absolutely prepared to do all the work that I need to do.

00:45:21.620 I'm ready to do it.

00:45:23.500 Yeah.

00:45:23.720 I mean, listen, the world can handle, America can handle multiple different crises at the

00:45:28.980 same time.

00:45:29.400 And you mentioned like 3.2.

00:45:31.160 I think if you went into a lecture hall and you asked them to raise their hand, who do

00:45:36.260 you know, a close friend or family member?

00:45:38.200 Half.

00:45:38.700 Of course.

00:45:39.600 Half.

00:45:40.000 I believe you.

00:45:40.880 I believe you.

00:45:41.500 That's why I think this needs to get to the next level.

00:45:46.760 Anyways, by the way, if somebody wants to get a hold of you, how can they find you?

00:45:50.680 I don't know if you can put up on your...

00:45:52.560 I'm going to put it below.

00:45:53.240 Don't worry about it.

00:45:54.360 Here's what we'll do.

00:45:55.080 If it's a website, you can tell us, but we're also going to put it in the description.

00:45:58.160 Go right ahead.

00:45:59.400 So endtheopioidcrisis.com is my website.

00:46:04.280 That is E-N-D-T-H-E opioidcrisis.com.

00:46:08.400 I don't know if you put a Gmail email on there or is that sort of, there's rules about that.

00:46:12.480 Are they going to be able to find you, contact you through your website if they want to send

00:46:15.260 an email you or no?

00:46:17.140 They can contact me through the website.

00:46:21.680 You can find me on LinkedIn as well, Dr. Chris.

00:46:25.160 I will send you all of that.

00:46:27.180 Give us all that information.

00:46:28.040 We're going to put all of it below because if anybody is watching this and you were directly

00:46:32.360 affected by this and you can have an impact where he can get in front of Congress and give

00:46:36.840 this message and other people can participate.

00:46:38.760 I'll go to other states.

00:46:40.020 I'll talk to their legislators.

00:46:41.160 Absolutely.

00:46:41.880 Please reach out to Dr. Chris Johnson.

00:46:44.500 Dr. Chris Johnson, thank you for making the time and being willing to take the questions I just threw

00:46:49.800 your way and addressing them to the best of your abilities.

00:46:52.760 I think you have a message that needs to be heard.

00:46:54.560 And I think a lot of people are hoping this thing gets heard by the right people.

00:46:58.600 Thank you for making the time for being a guest on Byte Taman.

00:47:01.220 I appreciate that.

00:47:02.400 Thank you so much for inviting me.

00:47:03.680 I hope people are moved by it.

00:47:06.920 I think they will be.

00:47:07.720 Just out of curiosity, do you have anybody close to your friend or family that also got

00:47:11.680 addicted to opioids that you lost because they couldn't stop using them?

00:47:15.440 Comment below.

00:47:15.820 I'm actually curious to hear your stories and also thoughts on what he had to say.

00:47:19.980 And if you know somebody on a way to get him in front of those guys, let's figure out a

00:47:24.320 way.

00:47:24.500 Contact him.

00:47:25.080 All his information is below.

00:47:26.360 But if you enjoyed this interview, I did an interview also with Dr. Jason Fong where

00:47:30.140 he had a different angle.

00:47:31.680 He has a treatment for obesity, cancer, diabetes.

00:47:34.840 Very interesting guy that I spoke to.

00:47:36.760 He's another guy that's got millions of views.

00:47:38.280 If you've never watched this, you'll get a different angle from what he has to say.

00:47:42.580 I think you'll enjoy that interview as well.

00:47:43.880 Take care, everybody.

00:47:44.380 Bye-bye.

Valuetainment - September 22, 2021

Opioid Epidemic： How Big Pharma Created A Public Health Crisis

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