“Sued For $175 Billion” - FedEx & Others Sue Trump’s Tariff After Supreme Court Blow
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Summary
FedEx sues the U.S. Government seeking a full refund over Trump's tariffs. What will happen to the other companies involved in the trade dispute? And what will the market do about it? All that and more on today's Marketwatch podcast.
Transcript
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But let's talk about tariffs. Let's talk about tariffs. So FedEx sues the U.S. government
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seeking full refund over Trump's tariffs. Rob, if you got that clip, let's start off with that
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because the first story we heard was, you know, FedEx, but it didn't end with FedEx. There's many
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more names that are coming up. Go ahead, Rob. FedEx is suing the Trump administration just days
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after the Supreme Court ruled most of his tariffs are illegal. The company is asking for a full
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refund of all the payments it made to the government under its tariff policies. Let's
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go live to MarketWatch Bureau Chief Rob Schroeder. Rob, thank you for your time today. So what is
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the procedure here looking? What is it going to look like for companies who are seeking to get a
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refund? After the Supreme Court's really quite earth-shaking decision last week to deny or to
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really reject several of President Trump's tariffs that he had used to collect duties. So what's
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happening now in the case of FedEx, for example, is they're going to what's called the Court of
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International Trade against the Trump administration in hopes, in desires that they get a refund. Now,
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this promises to be quite a long process, as the president himself suggested, taking as many
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years, five years. It could take as long as, you know, five years. It could take two years, three years,
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five years. Kevin O'Leary was talking about the other day how problematic it is. I'll give you guys some
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numbers here, and then Kenneth, I'll come to you first. You got $175 billion right now is what we're
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looking at. L'Oreal, Dyson, I think Prada, a couple other companies, Costco, Revlon are also those that
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filed suits before. Over 1,000 importers total filed similar refund claims post-ruling, spanning large
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corporations and smaller importers for a total of about $175 billion. What do you think is going to
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happen here, Kenneth? Well, first of all, I think it's important that most of them do get their money
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back that, you know, if this was an illegal tariff, then the United States has to pay it back. On the other
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hand, $175 billion, that's a lot of money, but not in the context of the U.S. budget. It's kind of like
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chump change in terms of things. And I'm sure the president, as economic advisors, knew this might
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happen. They knew they might have to pay it back and fill it in other ways and view it as collateral
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damage for their strategy. I also want to say that, you know, there's all this drama over tariffs.
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If you had 15% tariffs all over the world, I mean, we economists don't favor that. There'd be a lot
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of costs. I don't think we'd be efficient. It's not the end of the world. I mean, a lot of the dramatic
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effects of tariffs come from, we don't know what's going on. When we had Liberation Day, the problem
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wasn't the tariffs. The problem was, you know, he had this chart that didn't really make sense. And
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people are thinking, oh my God, you know, he's got his finger on the trigger. You know, what's he
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thinking? But, you know, the tariffs themselves are not the issue. It's getting some certainty.
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And we don't have it now because we don't know what will work. We don't know what won't work.
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We had all these deals. And now suddenly, I mean, the U.K. had 10%. Now it's 15%. And they say,
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what gives? And of course, you know, there are many things playing out here. But at the end of the
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day, this is more about a fight for power than it is specifically about some tax. Tom, what are you
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at with this? So, you know, people like to say, oh, the tariffs were illegal. The tariffs themselves
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were not illegal. And CBS is calling the tariffs illegal. What the Supreme Court said very narrowly,
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keep me honest here, was the president did not have the authority to put those things in place
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because he needed to get permission from Congress. These were not like illegal or backdoor extortion.
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This was normal negotiation, the way tariffs have been used for 100 years. And you could debate whether
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tariffs are good or bad. These tariffs did not create runaway inflation as predicted. The market
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calmed down because, as you pointed out, and you're correct, the market didn't have
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certainty on Liberation Day. And the market, as they say, freaked the F out on April 2nd of last
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year. But then the market came back. So these tariffs are not illegal. The president didn't have
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permission from Congress. But if Congress got together tomorrow morning, Pat, and simply stated,
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we hereby ratify the tariffs as implemented by the president and voted, that simple vote would
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retroactively tell the whole world, hey, we're all together here. We're behind the president.
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And you better deal with these. And you've negotiated trade deals with us. So, you know,
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the guy that's negotiating with you and Whitcoff and Besant and Rubio and everybody that was involved,
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hey, we're behind our leadership. Deal with it. That's all they have to do, Pat. A vote by the
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U.S. Congress that says, we hereby retroactively ratify that we approve the tariffs as in force
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as they are today. Here. There you go. Yeah. The question is, will that happen? No, that's not
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going to happen because it's anything but Trump. Of course. So the problem, to me, it's a circle.
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Like the Constitution protects against a, you know, dictator coming in and choosing to do
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everything they want to do. That's not Trump. I support what Trump was doing with this and not
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because it affected us negatively as well. We buy products from many of these countries that we go
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back and forth from. We're right now in Italy and we are in the shoe business and the fashion business.
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So we're dealing with the tariffs that you have to buy and we eat the costs in many cases. But for me,
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it was more about what China was going to do. And you see here, Xi gains leverage before Trump's
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summit after tariff reversal. Bloomberg writes that article. You don't think Xi knows he got the
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leverage now? You don't think these countries now sit there? Macron asks Trump to lift sanctions on
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European officials, right? You know, U.S. tells partners to you better honor tariff deals
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as Trump regroups. Even yesterday, he talked about it in a state of the union when he said
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most of the countries we're speaking to are still willing to go with the agreements we made,
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meaning even though Supreme Court ruled against us, they're still willing to negotiate with us in
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that way. So he needs that fear. A leader has three different things that you're dealing with.
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Respect, likability and fear. OK, so likability. He tends to be likable when he's negotiating his
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charming, like you talked about earlier, right? Respect. We have some of that respect. You need
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a little bit of the fear. Nobody feared Biden. Nobody feared Obama when you're negotiating. You
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didn't fear these guys. We need a little bit of fear. America hasn't been feared in a long time.
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We haven't had somebody that comes in. And my biggest concern was China. So I kind of liked that
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this was here, but then it was out. And it was so important that yesterday, Rob, if you want to play
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the clip when the president was coming in and how he walked past Amy Coney Barrett, Rob, if you want to
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play that clip, this is not the one. It's the other one. I send you two of the clips. Yeah. I texted
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to you a minute ago. If you look at the clip I just sent you, Rob, if you just check your text,
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I text it to you directly to your text right there. Watch this, folks. Go ahead. OK, so one by one.
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We just saw the president obviously shake the chief justice's hand. There's Justice Elena Kagan,
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Gregg Kavanaugh, Amy Coney Barrett. Of course, he chose Amy Coney Barrett for the bench.
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She was one of the justices who did not vote in his favor and did not shake her hand there.
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Did interact with the chief justice, but then with none of the other justices.
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And John Carl, this was a question for the president today. Obviously, he didn't want to go on the record.
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He didn't offer any answer to us. What do you think about that?
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But it was clear to us. You can pause the right. What do you think about that?
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Well, I mean, I think Tom had it right that the Supreme Court ruling was correct,
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that it wasn't that tariffs are illegal. It was that the procedure was illegal.
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And I have a feeling Trump and his people knew this was coming all the time.
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What taking this ruling is meant has been that he can't use it as capriciously as he's been doing,
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which he's a good negotiator and sometimes use it effectively.
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On the other hand, I have friends who run small businesses.
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It has been brutal on them because not only are there the tariffs and you don't know what's coming,
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but there are actually a lot of costs, administrative costs.
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If you're a small business, if you're importing, it's not just that you're paying the 15, 20 percent,
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but there are all these other fees that places like FedEx and others are charging
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because they have to do all this paperwork that they didn't have to do before.
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So I think a thing that hasn't been talked about enough is how tough this has been on small businesses,
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this uncertainty. Maybe it's for the larger good, but it's not been painless.
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And I think maybe an optimal way I do would be to exempt small businesses under a certain size.
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But I think that this is outrageous by the Supreme Court.
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I think the Supreme Court has acquired too much power since the Constitution was created.
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And they look at this like an economic thing, but I think it's a matter of national security.
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Like, Rob, if you could pull up the picture I sent you, these things that, whether it's semiconductors,
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advanced chips, aerospace, rare earth mining, rare earth refining,
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less than 10 percent of those things are manufactured in the U.S.
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So if that's not a matter of national security, I don't know what it is.
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And the primary goal, if not one of the many goals of the tariffs,
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is to get those things back to the U.S. to be produced in the U.S.
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because it's impossible to compete with a country that pays slave wages to produce items
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because obviously it's going to be cheaper to have manufactured in a different country and brought over here.
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So I didn't even think the tariffs were a strong enough measure to enforce that,
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How do we solve for being undersold by, you know, third world countries or countries like China
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who could produce something for a fraction of what we could produce it for?
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And when they're critical to our national security, which is why I think it is a false ruling by the Supreme Court.
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And I think a lot of people also voted for that, right?
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But I think, Brandon, to go through that, what did he say yesterday?
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Under Biden, the investments of foreign investment coming in was less than a trillion dollars
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But why have gotten the commitment over $18.5 trillion
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and a lot more than $18 trillion of foreign investment coming in here?
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The challenge is America is not going to feel that right away.
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I don't know, five, 10 years, 15 years, 20 years?
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Buy the land, build the factory, hire the people.
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So the problem is some of these ideas that are good ideas and the pain to go through the
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tariffs of making sure you put China in check, put some of these other countries in check,
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And you said, we don't know if it's going to work or not, right?
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I mean, so I'm all for national security and thinking about just things like the drugs that
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We were importing everything from India and China.
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So there are things which are national security.
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And I think, you know, if he uses them under these other mechanisms, he can target those
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But the trouble is, as a negotiator, he just wanted, you know, free form to do whatever
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If he didn't like putting Bolsonaro in jail in Brazil, if he didn't like the free speech
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law in the UK, you know, he would do something.
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Yeah, that, you know, you focus it on national security, that's fine, but not necessarily
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That was, I think, really what, you know, seemed odd about the whole thing.
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You know, you got your bachelor's and master's in national security.
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So your thoughts on this as well is, so if the ruling comes back and they say, well,
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yeah, you never had the authority to put the tariffs on all these countries, six to three
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So I put them there, but they're ruling against me, yes.
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But all you have to do is put it through Congress to get it passed.
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If you're sending B-2 or B-52 bombers to go help, you know, blow up the six nuclear
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side Iran has, some people are saying, you also need to run that through Congress first.
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There's also a, hey, you need to get that approval.
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Hey, the stuff that we're doing with Iran, you also need Congress approval.
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Doesn't that make everything that before you make a decision like that, you have to go
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and then how do you become unpredictable to the enemy?
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An element that the president needs to be unpredictable.
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Instead, it's like, no, hey guys, we're about to attack you at 6 p.m. tomorrow night.
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Can that argument be made for that as well with Iran?
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The executive order is the mechanism for the president to do exactly what you're talking
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As a matter of fact, I believe it was Massey and Ro Khanna, Rob, can you look this up, who
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were pushing a war powers resolution to force the president to come to Congress to get approval
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But it was Massey and Ro Khanna a week ago talking about pushing something forward so that the
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Section five of war powers right from unauthorized hostilities.
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They're saying, hey, you needed to come to us from this.
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But what people don't understand, leaders have to be unpredictable.
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Now, the president as commander in chief is allowed to do a variety of things militarily.
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Can Congress keep coming back and say like Rand Paul was right.
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Rand Paul says, hey, you know, you realize if I said, so do you think Supreme Court's going
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If they follow the law, they're going to rule against him on the tariffs.
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So now can the same argument be made against anything he does with Iran?
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What if what if they do what they're doing to Iran and something doesn't go right?
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Can they come back and say, hey, you went against the Constitution?
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And this is what kind of mass here threatened the for to force a vote on Iran as prospective
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What I'm saying is if you're against him, you would test.
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So there's, you know, the president wants more power.
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And part of, you know, the democracies and their balance of power is deciding, you know,
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I think on economic stuff, being unpredictable is not so great.
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I mean, occasionally a negotiation, but I have a friend who imports wines from Italy and
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And the unpredictability is really hard to deal with.
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Like, can I rely on something in three to five years if I invest?
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But obviously, for military strategy, it's like the last thing we want is for our enemy,
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So, yeah, I mean, these are things that constantly need to be talked about and debated.
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I think on the economic side, the case for having, you know, more process.
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That's really what happened on the tariff ruling.
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There are these, all these other mechanisms you can use.
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They just require a little more process, a little more procedure.
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And I think the Supreme Court actually very openly was saying, please use these instead.
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They weren't saying we're going to ban everything.
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We just, you know, this door, maybe you shouldn't, this approach you shouldn't use.
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He comes from the private market, where if you don't move fast, you get killed.
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But in economic policy, like, you know, would you want to know if your tax rate on your company
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You'd kind of like to know that if you're making an investment.
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So the unpredictability for ordinary people, for small businesses, is not great.
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I mean, you know, they're different horses for different courses, I guess, as they say.
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But we have to compete with countries who are able to move at light speed, though.
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I mean, like, Russia took their interest rates to 22% when we put the sanctions on them,
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So, I mean, you kind of have to be able to swiftly move if other countries are doing things, too.
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No, but that's a case of if you're in a crisis.
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I think we're in a crisis with what Trump's trying to combat against.
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Well, we're in a much more slow-moving crisis than what Russia was doing.
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And I don't, you know, I think there are crises in America.
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And you don't want to throw out the baby with the bathwater.
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The first one is that we need to understand that our Congress is heavily influenced by foreign lobbyists.
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The president has to work against that because otherwise his negotiations on economics will get completely undermined.
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But your comment about consistency and predictability is correct on one line.
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Because there was so much unpredictability and so much dirt being thrown into the air by the Democrats, that's what happened on April 1st, the stock market.
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It thought there was going to be runaway inflation.
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So the president needs to have that unpredictability dealing with other people.
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I mean, look at the trouble we had with Canada.
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Canada is 2.1 trillion, I mean, 2.3 trillion GDP, slightly larger than Russia.
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And this gnat was sitting there creating these hostilities because he was handcuffed.
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You have to be able, as a leader, to lead in these things.
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You do want economic consistency, but when you're really trying to break two things, all these entanglements with your own Congress who are bought and influenced by foreign governments, you have to break that.
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So he has to have that pen and that power to break through that.
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Because in a normal circumstance, if we had rational representatives, you grab an economic committee, you say, this is the play we got to call.
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We need to do this, this, and this because of steel and China.
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Unfortunately, if you go and tell all those people they've got lobbyists, they've got people, then everybody knows about it.
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We're talking about the long-term balance of power.
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Again, we could have a president, Mom Donnie, not him in particular, a president in a few years.
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And do you want them to have all this power without Congress to be a check on it?
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I have to say one of the things that upset me a lot about what the Democrats wanted before the election was they wanted to get rid of the filibuster.
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They wanted to get rid of the filibuster because they wanted, you know, much more power when they were in power.
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I think of the filibuster as one of the fundamental things that we have.
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And to their credit, the Republicans, even when Trump has pushed them, have not gone along with that.
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It makes the Senate instead of 60 out of 100 to 51?
00:22:14.760
Yeah, you get a tiny majority and you just do whatever you want.
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They wanted to make Puerto Rico and Washington, you know, into Senate seats in order to cement things.
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And the filibuster is very – they made a big mistake back, I think it was under Obama,
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when they took away the filibuster for most court appointments, thinking, you know,
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And I think we have to be careful also, if you are – want President Trump to have more executive power,
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that it's not something that somebody that follows him that inherits.
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And you've got to be really careful about upsetting a balance of power that has worked.
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There was this New York Times article four or five years ago that got me very upset that said,
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we're going to only get to the end of this when one side has all the power,
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meaning I think the progressives have all the power.
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I think we have to, you know, figure out how to reestablish this balance.
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But look, to me, the more and more we get into this debate and both sides of the argument are given, Tom,
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like what you're saying and then what he's saying about Mamdani, even though he's not born here,
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but a Mamdani type of person like could become president.
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Let's say AOC, who is born here, could be that.
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But the Supreme Court, to me, gives me confidence about the future.
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The Constitution, how it's set up, gives me confidence about the future.
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That even a crazy, psycho, progressive, socialist commie that becomes a president,
00:24:04.280
You know, are they going to be locked in on how much they can do?
00:24:06.460
Of course they can sell their ideology, confuse the kids, and go back to some of those gays,
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they opened a border and what Biden did, opening the border for four years
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and getting the, what, 10, 12, 15, 20 million, whatever the number is.
00:24:20.060
But even with that crisis, you know, like if you actually think about this, Tom,
00:24:24.920
Kenneth, you know, so they opened a border for four years.
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Every month we had to hear why it's tough to close it and how much work it takes.
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Every month we had to see interviews of Border Patrol guys, we're not allowed to do this.
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Once the last time Kamala Harris came here, the borders are, you can't come.
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Eventually one time she came, and I don't know where she went, Guatemala or whatever it is that she ended up doing.
00:24:59.100
So that playbook to me, if I'm a Democrat, I'm like, guys, every four years,
00:25:05.020
if we get into the office, open up the borders again.
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Eventually, within 50 years, we're going to dominate this entire thing.
00:25:15.080
Then Republicans are like, what do you mean you're going to open up the borders?
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And so, okay, I dare you, go ahead and get rid of the people that came here illegally.
00:25:22.060
What's going to happen if you get rid of people illegally?
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You're going to get a, you know, what's her first name?
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And then what happens when you get a Rachel Good and Alex Petty?
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Ilhan Omar was screaming that yesterday, I believe.
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So, to me, on one end, one has to follow the laws.
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But on the other end, you're allowed to put 12 million people here and nobody was held accountable.
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How does Supreme Court of Congress protect us with that?
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Play this clip and then I want to go to Kenneth.
00:26:00.740
Sanctuary cities that protect the criminals and enact serious penalties for public officials who block the removal of criminal evidence.
00:26:11.420
In many cases, drug laws, murderers all over our country, they're blocking the removal of these people out of our country.
00:26:30.700
Was anybody held accountable for letting 10, 15 million people in?
00:26:36.020
Well, the accountability, hopefully, is in our democracy.
00:26:39.740
It was one of the dumbest things they did, not only economically, socially, but politically.
00:26:45.920
I mean, I think if I were the Republicans, I'd hope the Democrats stick to that position forever.
00:26:52.520
It was one of the big issues for President Trump and the Republicans in getting elected in 2024.
00:26:57.700
You keep doing that in three, five terms, and Americans are not making babies, and you keep pushing LGBTQ, and LGBTQ gets younger kids to transition and like the same sex.
00:27:09.060
And we know science doesn't show that same sex can make babies.
00:27:11.760
So, birth rate goes to 1.58, and then you get control of Hollywood and all the movies and cartoons you make to confuse the hell out of the kids.
00:27:18.740
That's a great combination strategically long-term.
00:27:28.940
Well, I want to be a little more optimistic about it.
00:27:31.800
I mean, I have to say I've come from a very liberal university, and different people have different views on this, and there's some balance.
00:27:40.660
And I think the Democrats push too hard in one direction, and they're paying for it.
00:27:46.060
These are fantastic issues for the Republicans because I think a lot of people, you know, feel the Democrats went much further than you see in other countries on a lot of these issues.
00:27:55.220
They have a lot less immigration in Europe, and they're so angry about it.
00:28:07.820
Yeah, I mean, I think that's being lost in this debate, that we need more of that.
00:28:12.760
But, yeah, I don't have like a simple answer to this.
00:28:17.900
Because to me, like, I love that you're saying the Supreme Court, the long-term balance of power.
00:28:27.500
As much as, to me, I was for the tariffs going because I wanted to see where that negotiation was going to lead to.
00:28:33.520
And the moment Besson started saying even if Supreme Court ruling goes against that, we have other plans.
00:28:41.200
Protect us from the next person being able to open up the borders and getting 10 or 15 million people.
00:28:45.300
And when the Republicans come in, what are they going to campaign on?
00:28:47.940
When Trump campaigned on, we're going to get rid of the illegal immigrants.
00:28:52.220
I said to myself, how are you going to do without being seen as a cruel, horrible human being?
00:29:02.580
You're going to go politely say to people, hey, Kenneth, you came here illegally with your family of six.
00:29:11.320
Okay, America, I'm going to go back home illegally because you said so.
00:29:18.780
Well, I don't know if this is going through their heads when they're looking at it.
00:29:24.040
But certainly until recently, the view was if you got in, you were eventually going to be made a citizen.
00:29:31.180
The U.S. would always have an amnesty every once in a while and you got to be a citizen.
00:29:37.840
Yeah, now, you know, you think, well, okay, maybe the Mamdani candidate gets in in four years.
00:29:47.620
You know, you got to think a little bit more because they might not be there in four years and you have to worry.
00:29:53.180
I'm not trying to approve of it or not approve of it.
00:29:57.120
But, you know, that does lay down a marker, I suppose, in being so tough.
00:30:03.840
If we come up with the voter ID, then they can't use the open up the floodgates of.
00:30:09.360
So if when they're like, well, no, voter ID is racist because you're asking African-Americans who, you know, can't go out there and do that.
00:30:20.820
And, you know, all these people that have all this job they're working to, they don't have time to go to the DMV and get a new voter ID.
00:30:28.700
No, you don't want the voter ID because we get it.
00:30:30.380
How many states do you not need a picture ID to go vote with?
00:30:35.780
I believe if they do the voter ID, the opening up the borders won't work anymore because that playbook doesn't work.
00:30:42.260
This is the scariest thing for the Democratic Party if voter ID passes.
00:30:46.200
What is the strategy of letting the floodgates open up?
00:30:49.640
It's a very, anyways, we can get past this and go to the economy.
00:30:53.240
I just kind of wanted to get your thoughts on this.
00:30:55.240
Different types of sales leaders I've worked with the last 20 years.
00:30:57.900
One of them are those that are a boss, that are telling you what to do.
00:31:02.300
He wants to say, hey, Johnny, let me help you get to this next level.
00:31:04.860
And then the other one is the leader, the leader that's sitting down with you, accountable, challenge, pushing you.
00:31:09.120
You can do more expectation, business planning.
00:31:14.780
One year I host an event called the Sales Leadership Summit.
00:31:17.720
This year we're doing it at the beautiful Trump throughout March 25th through the 27th where we talk about topics like this, 200 plus pages in a manual where people from around the world, you have to do a minimum of a million dollars a year and five salespeople to qualify to attend this.
00:31:32.060
So if you're someone that's watching and saying, I think I'm like a boss, I think I'm like a friend, I think I'm a leader, I want to find my blind spots, click on a link below, fill out the information.
00:31:43.180
I do believe the executive tickets have sold out, but there's two other tier tickets for those I want to find out about it.
00:31:47.860
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