Valuetainment - October 20, 2021


The Boy Crisis Explained - Why America is Producing Weak Men


Episode Stats

Length

59 minutes

Words per Minute

173.52348

Word Count

10,245

Sentence Count

486

Misogynist Sentences

51

Hate Speech Sentences

24


Summary


Transcript

00:00:00.000 My guest today is Dr. Warren Farrell, who is a New York Times bestselling author,
00:00:04.480 written many different books. He's been on many different TV shows. I'm talking Oprah Winfrey,
00:00:08.700 Phil Donahue, wrote a book called The Myth of Male Power, as well as The Boy Crisis.
00:00:14.960 He's got millions of views online, and he's very comfortable making others uncomfortable.
00:00:20.880 And I would even take it as far as he's very comfortable, sometimes unintentionally or
00:00:26.460 intentionally pissing other people off. So with that being said, Doc, thank you so much for being
00:00:30.980 a guest on Valuetainment. Thank you very much. Yes, speaking empathetically about boys and men
00:00:36.620 does apparently make some people uncomfortable. Why do you think that is, by the way? Why do you
00:00:41.620 think, I mean, even an open-ended question with that, why do you think some people get uncomfortable
00:00:45.780 when you talk about, you know, I don't know what university was you were speaking at. People were
00:00:51.120 rioting against you, protesting against you. They were not happy about you speaking. Some people just
00:00:55.780 wanted to hear your argument, but they tried to silence your message. Why do you think this
00:01:00.140 message of The Boy Crisis, you know, some people have a hard time listening to?
00:01:05.820 Well, to answer that question, we're going to have to go deep quickly, which is that historically
00:01:10.680 and biologically, men were programmed to be disposable. And we were programmed to be disposable
00:01:17.640 to be able to save the lives of women. So every generation had its war, and every generation
00:01:24.520 had some version of Uncle Sam saying, we need you. And we all knew as males that, you know,
00:01:32.360 Uncle Joe, who was in the Marines, was the respected person in the family. And we wanted
00:01:37.340 to be, you know, we were being criticized by our parents. We wanted to be respected.
00:01:40.820 So we accept the social bribe, what I call the social bribe of being called hero, to get that
00:01:46.620 type of respect. And women learn to fall in love with the officer and the gentleman, not the
00:01:51.800 private and the pacifist. So we knew we would be, if we were willing to risk our lives to save women,
00:01:57.600 to save children, to save other men, save the country, that we would be more loved. We would be
00:02:04.480 the person that was, you know, fallen in love with by the woman who wanted the officer and the
00:02:09.480 gentleman and not that private and the pacifist. We learned on some level that Lois Lane had no
00:02:15.900 interest in Clark Kent, but the same person in Superman uniform, what she fell in love with.
00:02:22.260 And so we, so when men complain, women are programmed to fall in love with alpha men,
00:02:28.800 not whining men. And so when men complain, it feels to women like, let's say, a chalk on a blackboard,
00:02:39.700 scratching, nails scratching on a blackboard. It feels, it doesn't feel right to women. Women
00:02:45.200 instinctively withdraw from men who express what concerns them. They want them to be there to
00:02:52.140 deal with what concerns the women. And so, and the, and the process of becoming successful as a man
00:02:59.920 is inversely related to the process of becoming successful in love. And so since we have a lot
00:03:07.800 of entrepreneurs on the line, I'll be glad to take that one at a much deeper level, but that's the,
00:03:12.840 you know, the underlying biological and historical background as to why we don't, we're not as
00:03:18.500 empathetic to boys and men complaining or expressing their hurt, their pain, their feelings, their fears.
00:03:24.460 Now, you know, to go, to go, and I'm going to unpack that, but to go back where the audience kind
00:03:28.840 of knows your history, you're not somebody that started thinking like this your entire life. You
00:03:33.980 were originally part of the feminist movement. Matter of fact, I think there's a picture with
00:03:39.680 you and Gloria Steinem, who was the spokesperson or spokeswoman, or even the leader for the American
00:03:45.820 feminist movement in America. And you were kind of going in that direction. Can you kind of walk
00:03:51.960 us through your history and what made you flip and switch?
00:03:56.860 Yes. First of all, I don't feel I have flipped and switched, but it's definitely true that I was the
00:04:02.380 only man ever elected three times to the board of directors of the National Organization for Women
00:04:07.180 in New York City. And I spoke all around the world on women's issues. And, and my income came
00:04:14.320 completely from speaking around the world on women's issues. And I suppose I was probably the,
00:04:20.040 the best known male spokesperson for women's issues. And so I, yes, I was very close to Gloria Steinem,
00:04:26.300 Betty Friedan, and all the initial leaders of the women's movement. And I think things began to
00:04:32.280 and so I, I never considered, I always considered myself, I would say, a gen, a person in favor of a
00:04:39.540 gender liberation movement. I never wanted women to be criticizing men or women's movement to be focused
00:04:45.960 on criticizing men. I never wanted a men's movement to be focused on criticizing women. I always wanted
00:04:51.400 both sexes to understand that for the first time in human history, we had an opportunity to not be
00:04:57.320 dominated by not patriarchy, but because I don't think we were dominated by patriarchy, we were
00:05:02.300 dominated by a need to survive. And to survive, women and men in most societies played roles.
00:05:09.580 Women's role was essentially raise children. Men's role was essentially raise money. Women didn't feel
00:05:16.180 that they would get much social praise. So they had social bribes to be mothers and to raise those
00:05:22.660 children and to do that well. And men had social bribes that you weren't worth much of anything if
00:05:28.020 you didn't either participate in the possibility of being disposable in war, or being disposable in
00:05:34.540 the workplace, either by working the hazardous jobs, or by working 60, 70, 80 hours a week where
00:05:41.400 you might die at the desk from stress and overwork. But your job was to earn enough money to be able to
00:05:46.880 support not just your wife and your children. And so you didn't think much of yourself and other people
00:05:51.700 didn't think much of you. If you're an unemployed person living in your family's basement and hoping
00:05:57.820 that a woman would save you, but you're really good looking and sweet and kind and had a good
00:06:01.940 emotional intelligence.
00:06:05.420 So then maybe let me ask the question in a different way.
00:06:08.860 Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't do the second part of that question, which is, you know, what made me evolve
00:06:14.420 from that?
00:06:15.560 And you said not much has. So let me let me ask the question in a different way. So
00:06:20.520 if you've been the same from the 60s and 70s till today, then it would only be the right
00:06:26.460 question to ask, has the movement of feminism changed from what it originally was to what it
00:06:31.980 is today?
00:06:33.520 The answer is three answers to that. Yes, yes, and yes.
00:06:39.180 Got it.
00:06:40.000 So the original focus on the women's movement was that there was that, you know, Helen Reddy,
00:06:46.760 I am woman, I am strong. It has increasingly become, I am woman, I've been wronged. Hashtag
00:06:54.860 me too, I've been wronged. And then there was always an anti-male dimension to the feminist
00:07:03.140 movement, even in the early days. My former wife, who is a very wonderful woman, said to me, you know,
00:07:09.320 you don't want to get involved with the women's movement. It's really a lot of anti-male. And my
00:07:14.460 response was, well, it may be anti-male for a while. But I don't think that that will increase
00:07:21.140 as men start listening to it. And men and women, men and women's roles tend to change. And to modify,
00:07:29.020 I think both sexes roles will change and modify. However, I do think men's roles will change much
00:07:34.360 more slowly than women's roles will change. And my former wife said, it was that because you feel
00:07:39.760 men have the power? I said, no, they don't have the power to speak up about the limitations of
00:07:45.040 their roles. We are programmed to protect women and to be able to do what women ask for. And right
00:07:53.180 now, women are the first ones speaking up to be able to be more flexible in who they want to be,
00:07:58.660 to be able to, when children come, women express, they have three choices. Choice number one is to be
00:08:06.960 full-time with the children if they're married and middle-class or above. Choice number two is to
00:08:12.280 be full-time with the workplace. Choice number three is to be work part-time. And men also have,
00:08:19.420 you know, say, well, we have three options too. And option one is to work full-time. Option two is to
00:08:24.860 work full-time. Option three is to work full-time. Or if they're working class men to work two jobs.
00:08:30.940 And if they're a corporate executive, it's to, or involved in their middle and upper middle-class
00:08:39.620 men, it's often to work more hours at the same job or to become more successful. So a person who was a
00:08:46.240 local salesperson for Product X might feel much more inclined to accept a position as national salesperson.
00:08:54.400 But as a national salesperson, he finds himself leaving his, experiencing the father's catch-22.
00:09:02.040 And the father's catch-22 is learning to love his family by being away from the love of his family.
00:09:07.440 And so he then feels he's doing this increased amount of money earning to be able to give his
00:09:16.920 family options that he never had. He wants to buy a better home and a better neighborhood with a
00:09:23.820 better school system for his kids and a better home for both his wife and his kids. And so he gets
00:09:30.620 caught up in that, but then spends less and less time for the kids and wife that he really loves
00:09:35.640 and he's working for until sometimes he does things that he learns. He learns things to be successful at
00:09:41.840 work that are the opposite of what it takes to be successful in love. And he doesn't know that he's
00:09:47.600 doing that. And the wife and children don't know that he's doing that. But, you know, I'll be happy to share
00:09:53.360 with you what that tension is that often leads to many successful men ending up getting divorced or
00:10:01.260 not getting divorced because their wife needs the security economically that he provides. But he
00:10:06.620 senses underneath that his wife is really hanging around to love the children and have that security
00:10:12.660 rather than feeling loved himself.
00:10:14.740 Well, let me ask this. So common reasons why women get a divorce, common reasons why men get a divorce.
00:10:22.500 It's a difference. In my family, I've seen both. My dad filed a divorce against my mom. So it was more
00:10:28.640 from that side. But from your experience, what are reasons why men file for a divorce over women filing for
00:10:33.520 a divorce?
00:10:33.880 Well, bigger picture first, when women have a college education, they are 92% of the people who
00:10:43.380 are filed for divorce. When they don't have an education, much like they've only graduated from
00:10:48.740 high school as opposed to college, the percentages are lower.
00:10:52.700 Because when a woman has economic security, she needs the man less for economic security.
00:11:07.640 She senses that if she sues, if she's the plaintiff, she has some advantages legally that allow her to
00:11:16.280 make it likely that she will both get a significant amount of economic security in the future and will
00:11:25.140 also provide the children. She basically has the right to the children. He has to fight for the
00:11:30.200 children. And if he fights for the children, it will cost him maybe $125,000 to a quarter million
00:11:36.440 to fight for the children. And that oftentimes just breaks his heart. So men and women who are going
00:11:45.960 through family court, men often get so depressed by the process that they're eight times as likely as
00:11:52.000 the mother is to commit suicide. And so it's a very challenging process because the court system is
00:12:01.560 really designed at its current state to when a woman, most judges feel that children do best with
00:12:11.560 both parents have to divorce. That's accurate. And most judges agree with that. However, when a woman
00:12:17.220 says, I'm afraid of my husband, not just physically, but you know, he might, he shouts at me and he raised
00:12:24.200 his voice and she gives a couple of examples of that. Then the judge often fears giving the custody
00:12:33.520 equally to both sexes because if there's one time out of a thousand that, that in fact, that man is
00:12:41.680 violent or physically abuses the woman or just overly shouts at the woman and she records it on a video
00:12:49.060 cam that he feel he, he becomes, he or she, the judge becomes vulnerable to being losing her, his position
00:12:59.160 as a judge. Okay. So, so why do men file the divorce? And you know, again, you hear stories
00:13:09.060 about women. Why are some reasons why men file a divorce? Well, first of all, both sexes file for
00:13:16.100 divorce largely because neither sex feels heard. That is the single biggest problem. The Achilles heel
00:13:25.600 of all human beings is our inability to handle personal criticism without becoming defensive.
00:13:31.760 And that's true of both men and women. When men do file for divorce, it's often because they,
00:13:38.960 they feel that they just can't take it anymore. They feel that their alcoholism or their ideations of
00:13:47.900 suicide or their, the feeling that the, the mother really doesn't like him anymore, not even just not
00:13:55.440 love him, but not like him. And, and then often, and then usually somewhere along the way,
00:14:01.680 particularly if he's an executive or a corporate person and he moves around a lot and owns his own
00:14:06.820 business, he might go from branch to branch of his, of his business and eventually meet somebody that
00:14:12.780 really, he feels respects him. Oftentimes his own secretary might be much more respectful of him
00:14:18.920 than his wife. And, and so he feels like there's somebody else that can love me, that does understand
00:14:25.100 me, that, that is proud of me. And, and verse, and then he has an affair with her. And, and, and that
00:14:34.540 leads to him feeling that, and then usually the new woman wants, wants more than just an affair, wants some
00:14:42.740 security, wants some lifetime intimacy, he does too. And so that accounts for the 8% of people who are men
00:14:50.560 that file for divorce usually, and, or the greater percentage of the woman has less of a, of, of an
00:14:58.360 education and is less likely to file. Then that starts increasing to about 20, 25% of males filing for
00:15:06.600 divorce. So, so doc, you know, the boy crisis, I mean, the crisis of education, crisis of mental health,
00:15:14.100 crisis of fathering, crisis of purpose, you know, you, you talk about this. And then I saw one of your speeches
00:15:19.100 where you're talking about at the age of nine, boys and girls suicide rate is the same. At 10 or 14, boys are twice the
00:15:27.220 chance of committing suicide than girls do, twice the amount of suicides as boys, as girls do. 15 to 19, it's four times the
00:15:34.920 amount, boys to girls. 20 to 25, it's six times the amount, boys to girls. So if you don't, if you don't mind unpacking
00:15:42.560 the boys crisis, I have some follow-ups, whether anything to do with the upbringing has to do with the divorce, but I'd like
00:15:48.860 to start with the boy crisis first. Yes. When I first submitted my proposal to my publisher for the boy crisis book, I had 10
00:15:58.540 causes of the boy crisis that I was going to write a chapter in each. And then the more I studied it, the
00:16:04.860 more I realized that the single most important cause by a long shot was that basically the boy crisis
00:16:11.360 resides where dads do not reside. And when boys don't have, when, when usually when there's one parent
00:16:21.280 in the game and the other parent minimally involved or not at all involved, it's usually the mother
00:16:28.080 that's the primary parent and the dad that's the secondary parent. And in those situations, the girls
00:16:34.260 have challenges in more than, the daughters have challenges in more than 50 different areas.
00:16:38.980 But the boys have challenges in more than 50 different areas also, but their challenges are
00:16:45.160 more intense. They're more likely to commit suicide than the girls are by the data that you just gave.
00:16:52.160 They're more likely to move into depression when you measure depression by male standards, which is
00:16:59.420 almost completely unheard of as opposed to just the female measures of depression. Almost all of our
00:17:04.920 measures of depression are female measures. The boys are much more likely to become addicted to video
00:17:10.160 games. Girls and boys both play video games. Video games are very healthy at a reasonable proportional
00:17:17.180 amount of level to the rest of life. But when it comes to addiction to video games, boys are far more
00:17:22.720 likely to be addicted to video games than girls are. Boys are far more likely to be addicted to drugs,
00:17:29.680 to alcohol. Their depression leads them to feeling that they're worthless and they become ashamed of
00:17:36.720 themselves and they fear that they're going to be rejected by girls. So they're much more likely to
00:17:42.160 turn to pornography because pornography is basically access to a variety of attractive women without fear of
00:17:49.920 rejection at a price they can afford. And so guys, as they don't do as well in school,
00:17:57.600 they don't feel as admired by girls. Girls tend to date winners, not losers. And so they feel that
00:18:03.280 they're a loser and that they fear that they can't risk rejection because they know that the girls they're
00:18:08.840 most attracted to are dating the quarterbacks or the student body president or some other guy that's
00:18:13.380 really sharp and on the basketball team, et cetera. And so they start fearing becoming introspective,
00:18:21.700 becoming withdrawn, becoming rebellious, becoming very coercive to their parents. And they feel badly
00:18:29.980 about themselves. And that leads them into depression, into suicide, into drinking, into drugs,
00:18:34.920 into death from opioid overdoses, and into addiction to pornography. And so that addiction to pornography
00:18:42.020 is very dangerous because what happens for boys who are addicted to pornography is that the first time
00:18:48.980 they are watching pornography and just watching an attractive woman take her clothes off is really
00:18:55.600 exciting for them. But after they've watched that 15 times, it loses the excitement. And so they have
00:19:02.060 to keep upping the ante until they're requiring things like the only way they can get turned on is a
00:19:10.020 woman doing something like letting him come in her face. And so, but then they finally get a woman that
00:19:17.840 is really interested in being with them. And the woman is, and they get together and she, and he wants
00:19:24.940 to do that. And she goes, you know, and withdraws because she, he feels treated like a porn object because
00:19:31.140 she's being treated like a porn object. And so that's really very challenging for the woman and
00:19:38.960 therefore is challenging for the, um, the guy as well. Have you ever spoken to Pamela Anderson?
00:19:45.600 I have never spoken to Pamela Anderson. No, I think it may not be a bad idea to speak to her because
00:19:50.500 one of the things she talks to her boys about is when she says, sometimes when I would go home with a guy,
00:19:56.480 they would try to have sex with me as if they watched the porn. And she said, I taught my boys
00:20:00.800 don't have sex with girls with what you see in porn, because that's not how they like it.
00:20:05.300 I think it's a very good conversation for the two of you guys to have, but that's a complete
00:20:08.840 different subject. That's just a suggestion. And I would agree with her a hundred percent.
00:20:12.740 Yeah. So going back to, uh, going back to what we're talking about here with porn,
00:20:16.280 uh, uh, the, the visual you gave was very helpful. Uh, I'm sure it inspired a lot of people to
00:20:22.920 make some bright adjustments in their lives. Uh, so, but, uh, going back to this, so you talk
00:20:29.260 about a fatherless boys. Okay. And statistics we see nowadays and the consequences of it. One,
00:20:36.240 uh, what is the number between fatherless boys and motherless boys? Is it a 98 to two, like the boys
00:20:41.900 that are raised without a mother, how small of a percentage is that? Well, we don't even have a lot
00:20:45.220 of data on it. Yes. Um, boy, boys are far more likely to be raised by their mom than their dad.
00:20:51.260 It's about a nine to one ratio. Nine to one ratio. Okay. So, so let me, let me go a little
00:20:55.340 bit more deeper with that on the question. So, so boys, okay. So we know that we know that's
00:20:59.060 going to be taking place. Is there an event that incentivize, incentivize, uh, uh, you know,
00:21:06.000 mothers to say, I don't need a man to help me raise my kids. I can do it on my own. Or has this
00:21:10.920 number nine to one been historically the same where we've had a lot of, you know, fatherless,
00:21:16.900 you know, homes where boys are raised without a father. Is there, is there a trend
00:21:21.020 that took place? Very good question. And, uh, the answer is in the 53 largest developed
00:21:29.120 nations with the emphasis on the word developed, um, in developed nations, survival is not as
00:21:35.900 big an issue in the middle and upper middle class as it is in less developed nations. When
00:21:41.400 survival is not as big an issue, the society starts giving more permission for there to be,
00:21:45.820 uh, divorces, if you want that, cause you're moving from survival, survival, what you need
00:21:51.000 to what you want. And if two people are unhappy, most societies that are developed allow some
00:21:56.880 permission for divorce. Uh, the churches are usually not as, as significant a role. They play a role,
00:22:03.400 but the pressure to, to not be, uh, to be disgraced at yourself. If you, uh, if you get a divorce is not
00:22:12.920 as great. Um, so you have, uh, uh, so in the, um, and you have more freedom to raise children, um, by
00:22:21.120 yourself, if you're a woman. So in the United States at the present moment, 53% of, um, women who have
00:22:28.960 children who are under 30, 53% have, have, uh, children without being married. Um, and in general,
00:22:37.300 um, without the under 30 part put in, uh, 42% of women in the United States at, at the present
00:22:45.400 moment who have children or have children without being married. Most of the time, even among those,
00:22:50.880 um, who have, who are not married, but they're living with a man at the time that they have children,
00:22:56.200 those relationships last on average about three years. Um, and then usually after that three years,
00:23:03.180 uh, the children, um, have minimal or no contact with the dad, uh, when there's a split up. And so
00:23:09.920 the boy crisis resides among those boys who have minimal or no contact with the dad. And even, and
00:23:19.260 they've had that contact for the first few years, but then they feel abandoned and lost by that dad
00:23:25.200 and boys, you know, the girls at least have the role model of a mother as to what it is to be a
00:23:30.220 female, but the boys don't have the role model of a father, or if they have a role model of the
00:23:35.840 father, that father, after the mother and father break up, or the father is often bad mouthed by the
00:23:41.360 mother. He's very narcissistic. That's why we broke up. He's very self-centered and he's very,
00:23:46.320 he's not reliable. He's not, um, um, you know, he's a liar, things like that. And the boy begins to
00:23:52.580 look in the mirror and worry that maybe he's looking in the mirror because he's a narcissist
00:23:57.000 or he's, you know, he remembers lying to a friend of his, or he remembers being unreliable in this
00:24:02.260 way or that way. And he begins to fear that the qualities that, that the father is being condemned
00:24:07.580 for that led to the breakup of the mother and father are also qualities that he has. And, but he
00:24:12.460 can't talk to the father about that because that'll only destabilize the relationship when the father
00:24:17.240 would mother have a fight, can't talk to the mother about that for the same destabilization
00:24:21.260 fear. And so he just shuts up about that, keeps that inside of himself. And it becomes a problem
00:24:26.840 that leads to, you know, depending on the personality of the boy, it either leads to minor problems or
00:24:32.180 very major psychological problems that, that oftentimes boys don't go to the psychologist and
00:24:37.380 they don't work those things out. And so among divorced families, the challenge is even greater
00:24:43.800 because the, the, the children are often seeing the mother and father argue. The, the arguments are
00:24:51.100 not compassionate arguments where, gee, I heard you say this. Tell me more about what you've said.
00:24:57.300 Did I distort anything about, here's what I heard you say. Did I distort anything? Am I missing anything?
00:25:02.260 Is there anything more that you want to add, sweetheart? Tell me more. That is not the conversation that
00:25:07.060 the children of divorce tend to hear. And so for the past 30 years, I've been conducting couples
00:25:13.000 communication workshops around the country because I wanted to prevent the divorces. I wanted children
00:25:19.020 to have parents that had happy relationships, positive relationships that, that had, that had
00:25:25.240 differences of opinion, but they knew how to hear each other, to work those differences through.
00:25:31.220 And so therefore there would, as a result of that, be fewer divorces. And therefore there would,
00:25:35.640 as a result of that, be fewer boys that didn't have very much father involvement. And so I've sort of
00:25:42.440 gone back to the root cause of the boy crisis, which really wasn't boys alone, but it was families
00:25:49.940 breaking up, children, boys, not having a dad to work with and not having good communication role
00:25:55.960 models in their parents. And therefore those boys and the daughters of these, of these divorced families
00:26:02.040 are far more likely to have divorces themselves when, and, and bad communication methods as they grow
00:26:09.640 up. Do, do our taxes, does our tax system benefit, uh, single mothers having more kids without relying
00:26:19.480 on a husband just to say, you know, if I have another kid, I'm going to make an additional X, Y,
00:26:25.580 amount of money per year. So I don't need another man because I'm going to get a benefit that's coming
00:26:29.760 from the government. Does that take into account? Because again, as somebody that's been in a financial
00:26:34.640 industry, all I'm looking for is data to show me what flip, did a tax incentive flip, did a new
00:26:40.480 program flip, did a new method of teaching in our educational system flip? What was it that caused
00:26:45.780 this to become, uh, the number that it is today? The main flip was the option of developed nations
00:26:54.600 that didn't have to worry about survival. The second flip was the government became a substitute husband
00:27:02.500 when it started to make, um, uh, laws saying that if a woman, uh, didn't have a man that she was living
00:27:11.200 with or was not married to a man, uh, that she could get money from the government. Um, and so the
00:27:17.940 government became a substitute husband. And this was institutionalized through many, many programs
00:27:23.700 like women, infants, and children, which makes it clear that it's not men, infants, and children. It's
00:27:29.520 not couples, infants, and children. It's not infants whose parents don't make enough money. Uh, so
00:27:35.400 particularly in, um, inner city communities where that were poor oftentimes, and particularly in
00:27:41.200 African-American black communities, uh, there was oftentimes the, the, the black male, uh, was not
00:27:47.160 making, um, a lot of money. And in those cases when he wasn't, um, the woman and the black male, um, both
00:27:55.220 usually a black woman and a black male, man calculated that there was, um, a, an inadequate
00:28:01.520 amount of money that was coming from the father to support the children effectively. So she, um,
00:28:07.260 made sure that the father did not live with her. And so then, um, so she could get the money from the
00:28:13.420 government. Um, and that money came in multiple forms, but not just through the women, infants,
00:28:17.920 and children forms. And, um, and so the woman felt that the best way to protect her children,
00:28:23.340 uh, was to not have the father around, but it turned out and, uh, that, that, that was the worst
00:28:29.300 way to protect her children because, um, the children without children without a dad are most
00:28:34.900 vulnerable. Now we've known this since 1965 when the Moynihan report came out and, um, Daniel Patrick
00:28:43.580 Moynihan was a sociologist, a U S Senator, a department of labor, um, a cabinet executive under both
00:28:50.000 Republicans and democratic presidents. Um, and he was asked because he had such qualifications to do
00:28:57.580 a report of what was created crime in the inner city. And everybody was going, Oh my God, this is
00:29:03.720 going to end up, you know, blaming crime on blacks because we know that in the inner city, very
00:29:08.500 frequently blacks commit crimes. And, uh, what came out was a very different report than many people
00:29:13.380 expected. And which was that the crimes were not created by blacks per se, that crimes were created
00:29:19.780 by that, that those people in the inner city who were being raised, uh, without dads. Uh, and that
00:29:28.480 at the time in 1965 was 25% of the males in the inner city, uh, almost all blacks, um, uh, that, that
00:29:38.380 would be among black males, uh, among black families, uh, 25% of the children were being raised without
00:29:46.500 their dads in 1965. Today, the percentage is more than 70% among black males, um, among Caucasian males at the
00:29:56.660 1965, it was only 3.2% of Caucasian males that were being raised without their dads. Today, it is 35% of
00:30:08.880 Caucasian males being raised without their dads. So the Caucasian males being raised without their dads today
00:30:15.140 is higher than it was for black males in 1965. And we're seeing a huge amount of dysfunction
00:30:23.740 among both black males and Caucasian males today. Um, and much more among Caucasian males than we were
00:30:33.120 seeing among black males in the, um, 1960s and mid sixties. Do we know why? Yes, because the lack of father
00:30:42.920 involvement leads many boys to feel that, that they, um, they, they don't usually have postponed
00:30:51.140 gratification. Uh, so I'll give, I'll give you an example, um, of what happens. So, uh, moms and dads
00:30:58.240 tend to set boundaries the same way. They both care about their children. They say, sweetie, you can't
00:31:04.020 have your ice cream until you finish your peas. Children tend to test boundaries the same way. Um, they
00:31:10.300 want to have as few peas as possible before they get their ice cream. Uh, the difference between
00:31:15.180 moms and dads on average, and sometimes this is reversed, uh, the roles are reversed on average.
00:31:20.680 The, the, um, difference is that when the child says to mom, you know, I don't want to have my
00:31:28.220 peas. I had a bad day in school today. I was bullied by somebody where the mom and dad are divorced and
00:31:34.000 the mom feels guilty about the divorce and my feels as the child must be very stressed. Her empathy
00:31:39.700 tends to step forward about, uh, and she says to herself some version of, um, I'm not going to get
00:31:46.140 into a big argument about a few peas. This is ridiculous. Now, when they're married and the
00:31:50.200 father does get in, in forces, they can't have the peas until the, um, the, uh, they can't have the
00:31:56.220 ice cream until they have the peas. Uh, the mother feels that the dad is being insensitive. Uh, when
00:32:01.440 they're divorced and the father, the children are going over to the father's house, the father says,
00:32:05.240 I'm sorry, we had a deal here. Uh, the deal is you can't have your ice cream until you finish
00:32:09.300 your peas. And the child goes, you're so mean, you know, mom, it lets me have my peas when I've
00:32:14.120 had a bad day like this. And so with the dad, the children learned that they have to focus
00:32:19.360 on finishing their peas in order to get their ice cream. And because dad's not going to give
00:32:27.740 in and empathy will not, uh, the, the, the child cannot coerce or manipulate the father's
00:32:34.560 emotions in order to get the ice cream, uh, before he finishes the peas. Uh, whereas with
00:32:41.080 mom, the child is learning, ah, I can manipulate a better deal here. Uh, mom says, okay, I know
00:32:47.020 you're, you know, you've had a bad day. So I'll tell you what, just have half the peas. And so
00:32:50.860 the child realizes, ah, this is negotiable. So it begins to try to have half the half a peas.
00:32:56.580 And, um, and then, and then the mom says, okay, I'm again, the child at least tried it's
00:33:02.100 had, they've had a bad day. Okay. So now the child is learning that with mom, I can manipulate
00:33:07.600 better deals. And so the skillset that the child with mom often learns is that of manipulation,
00:33:13.700 but also a lack of respect for the mom's boundaries. And so the mom finds herself repeating and repeating
00:33:20.700 the boundaries, um, and, um, and where dad, um, after a while does not have to repeat it because
00:33:27.120 dad's made clear, uh, that when the child does not finish the peas, uh, there's no ice cream.
00:33:32.380 So the child learns to focus on doing what he or she needs to do in order to get what she or he wants
00:33:40.320 the ice cream. And so what the child is learning with the dad is postponed gratification. And as most
00:33:47.700 people know, postponed gratification is the single biggest predictor of success or failure. So the
00:33:54.280 boy without postponed gratification goes to school, um, has homework to finish, but it's much more
00:33:59.980 likely to get sidetracked by an invitation from a friend to play a video game. And so, or he has a
00:34:05.420 real great potential as a basketball or football player, or as an actor, as a musician, but he doesn't
00:34:11.100 have the discipline, um, to, uh, to become one of the best actors, musicians, basketball players.
00:34:17.360 Um, so, uh, other kids beat him out that are even less talented than he is for that role. And he begins
00:34:22.820 to feel ashamed of himself and sometimes depressed. And again, no girls are interested in the losers.
00:34:27.980 They're interested in the winners. And so he starts turning in on himself and becoming withdrawn.
00:34:33.400 And his only friends are the online friends that he doesn't have real friends that will help him
00:34:38.180 move or do something when it really counts. And so this leads to depression. And in worst case
00:34:43.900 scenarios, uh, the increase in suicides. And a lot of that comes from not having a dad
00:34:49.640 that is there to guide him, to help him take risks, to help them be disciplined at doing what he wants
00:34:57.580 to do. Uh, moms are very good at helping their children, both girls and boys identify their talents
00:35:03.840 and pursue them. But very frequently the children without a dad does not have the discipline to
00:35:10.520 successfully become outstanding at the most fulfilling things. If you want to be an engineer
00:35:16.020 or, um, you need, um, you need that discipline, but also if you want to be an artist, a writer,
00:35:23.240 a musician, if you want to ever make a living at it, uh, or a basketball player and join the NBA,
00:35:29.160 you've got to be extremely, um, disciplined. Uh, that was great. So on your points, you've written
00:35:37.840 here, you know, in the book, the crisis of education, crisis of mental health, crisis of
00:35:41.220 father, crisis of a fathering purpose, all that stuff. But how much, how much of, um, the crisis,
00:35:48.680 I know you said, yeah, 10, so I don't know the other six, what they were, but how much do you think
00:35:52.640 the role of media and movies play in, uh, who this kid wants to be? Meaning, uh, I'm growing up,
00:36:00.460 who's the hero? If the hero to me was like this strong military general, uh, you know what,
00:36:06.160 when I grow up, I want to be general Patton or whatever, you know, when I grow up, I want to be
00:36:10.240 like, you know, uh, a John F. Kennedy. I want to be like Reagan. I want to be like whoever it is.
00:36:16.140 I want to be like, uh, you know, um, Clint Eastwood. I mean, he's a man's man. You know, I want to be
00:36:22.760 like this guy. How, how much has the media change with portraying who the ideal male is that is
00:36:31.400 loved, admired, and respected? And does that have a big influence on how boys adjust to get that
00:36:38.560 necessary attention? Like, oh my gosh, today's boys are a little bit more silly. I'm going to be silly
00:36:42.940 because that gets the right attention versus man. Today's men are strong. I'm going to be strong
00:36:47.320 because that gets the respect I want. Do you think media plays a big role in that?
00:36:51.940 Yeah. Media does play an important, a very important role. Um, and we still have the same
00:36:58.120 basic image of men, uh, today, um, on one level, uh, that is the man that the woman is interested in
00:37:07.520 and attracted to in some version of Superman. However, the images of the father on TV are the
00:37:16.400 Archie bunkers are the, um, you know, other fathers that are just, um, that are the, that are goofballs
00:37:22.880 and the, um, and the, and an analysis of advertising on TV where one parent is focused, um, uh, it looks
00:37:30.280 like a jerk or looks like a bumble, you know, a well-intended, but bumbling, um, parent is not
00:37:36.140 90% males as dads that are looked at in a way, but 100% males when there's only one parent being
00:37:44.440 portrayed as a jerk, 100% of the time on your advertising, um, it is the male being portrayed
00:37:51.860 as some version of the jerk or a well-intended, but bumbling sort of quasi idiot, if you will.
00:37:58.280 And so we've gone to, from father knows best to fathers know less as in our media images of dads.
00:38:08.000 And so it's the dad image that has really been, um, neglected. That said, there is recently an
00:38:16.460 increasing number of positive father images in advertising and that's, um, and that's, but there's
00:38:23.680 nothing close to what I feel needs to happen. Uh, when I spoke to the, when I briefed the White
00:38:28.960 House, uh, the, the White House, but I briefed the White House on the Boy Crisis book, uh, one of the
00:38:35.660 things I talked with them about is developing a father warrior program, W-A-R-R, not warrior,
00:38:41.460 warrior, um, but warrior program, um, to encourage boys to, um, overcome the social biases, uh, that it
00:38:50.060 takes, uh, to become, to be valued as a dad. Uh, right now, if you, if, if a girl in college or a
00:38:57.360 young woman in college, uh, approaches a male in college at a, at a party, let's say, and she says,
00:39:03.800 oh, you know, what's, you know, what are you, um, planning to do when you get out of college? And
00:39:07.440 he says, oh, I want to be a full-time dad. Uh, she's, you know, she's likely to find a journalist,
00:39:12.520 um, in the, in the room to come back and interview him. Um, but she's likely to not come back for a
00:39:17.840 second drink herself. And so the guy gets the hint that, you know, um, an aspiration to be a full-time
00:39:23.840 dad or, uh, while the woman goes off and maybe earns the primary source of income or all the source
00:39:30.440 of income, uh, that's a role that would be perfectly fine for her to play. And he will be
00:39:35.660 still attracted to her if she says she wants to be the primary parent. Uh, but very few, he, he gets
00:39:41.500 it that very few women are going to come back and, um, and want to be with him if that's what he
00:39:47.300 states as his life goal. Yeah. I have a friend who's a full-time dad and the wife works and they've
00:39:52.740 been together for 12 years, 13 years and happily married. So, uh, are you starting to see an increase
00:39:59.560 in that? And if yes, why? Yes, there is an increase in that, fortunately. Why though? And I, was that?
00:40:07.060 Why, why is that happening? Because there is an increased amount. Well, first of all, um, we are
00:40:13.400 now at a place where two out of three of the people who graduate from college are female. Yep. Not,
00:40:22.480 not 60, 40, 60, 40 are the ones that enter college, but among college graduates, the ratio is two female
00:40:31.500 to one male. Um, so 60, 40 get into college, but men, uh, males in college are much less likely to
00:40:38.760 graduate from college for a lot of reasons, but the emphasis, the, the end product is, uh, the woman
00:40:46.240 we're, we're twice as likely to have young women who are recent college graduates, um, that we are a
00:40:52.500 male who's a recent college graduate. So the, the female is oftentimes, um, as available to her men who
00:41:00.360 may be good looking, may be taller than she, um, but she knows that she's going to be earning more
00:41:06.600 money than he. And so, uh, then a big issue, a big issue happens, um, if she wants to be a have-it-all
00:41:13.360 woman, and she's really interested in, um, you know, in developing, um, you know, breaking a glass
00:41:18.940 ceiling. Uh, she knows that to do that, but she usually wants to have, to be a have-it-all woman.
00:41:24.220 She wants to be happily married and she wants to have children and children that are well-raised.
00:41:28.580 Um, so she begins to adjust to say, well, one way that I can do that is to marry a man, um, who is a
00:41:36.000 nurturer connector type of man, as opposed to a provider protector type of man. And, um, but, um,
00:41:42.540 oftentimes, and she does that, and the marriage will, that type of marriage, that is a woman who
00:41:48.720 is the primary breadwinner and a man who is home taking care of the children, um, if she truly
00:41:55.200 respects him, that marriage has a high percentage chance of working out very well. Uh, so two things,
00:42:02.480 three things have to be in place. She has to really want to be a career person and want to have a lot of
00:42:08.460 her approval and respect for the career person. She has to adjust ahead of time to the fact that
00:42:14.640 the man, that she can respect the man who's taking care of the children well, taking care of the social
00:42:20.460 schedule, cooking the dinners well, and so on. And if she loses respect for him, if she, if she gets
00:42:28.620 attracted to another man at work, who's really successful, who also seems to be attracted to her,
00:42:33.660 that can make her divided in her love and the marriage will very frequently end. Um, but if she,
00:42:40.820 um, has the fortitude to know that the reason she has a happy marriage and, um, and the man is raising
00:42:48.120 children, that men will only do that, um, with gusto if they feel the respect from their wives.
00:42:56.820 Uh, because almost every man instinctively knows that a woman who does not respect a man is not able
00:43:03.400 to love that man. So, so in a case of a Jeff Bezos, uh, and McKenzie, uh, you have a McKenzie
00:43:12.580 married to a guy who is now the richest man in the world and they get a divorce and she goes and
00:43:18.000 marries a school teacher, a guy named Dan, I don't know, Jewett or some, some, you know, you know,
00:43:22.440 nice guy, I'm sure, but he's a school teacher. So you go from here to here. Is there, is there
00:43:29.160 also an element of, I am so burned out with being with a driven alpha guy that I just want a regular
00:43:35.960 guy. Like, you know how we go through a breakup? We're dramatic, right? We'll go from somebody that
00:43:41.200 is, you know, driven, competitive. You're like, oh my gosh, she's so attractive to me and overbearing.
00:43:47.000 You're like, I just want to date a regular girl. And then you're like, oh my gosh, I'm so bored. And
00:43:50.480 you go back to this. Why, why do we, why do we, and the reason why I asked this question
00:43:54.260 from you is because you brought up your first wife and I think your first wife was a mathematician.
00:43:58.780 I may be wrong. I think she was a mathematician or either you were a mathematician or she was
00:44:03.040 a mathematician. And you guys were married for nine, for 10 years. You spoke very highly
00:44:06.940 about her here on the, uh, uh, you know, uh, interview. And then your second wife, I think
00:44:12.600 you guys been together for 20 years now. I want to say it's 20 years, give or take a little
00:44:15.920 over 20 years. So where do we get marriage wrong? Like, I don't even know if most, most
00:44:24.000 men even know like the purpose of getting married, like what we're looking for. Are we confused
00:44:29.880 half the time when we're getting married?
00:44:32.520 Yes. To be fair and honest, um, both sexes tend to fall in love with the members of the
00:44:37.280 other sex who are the, who are often opposites and, and often the least capable of loving
00:44:43.340 them. Uh, so men fall in love with beautiful younger women who are less mature, uh, than
00:44:48.900 they are and end up, um, being highly, you know, look up, looking up to the man at the
00:44:54.060 beginning and we feel really proud and approved of and so on. Uh, but then it turns out that
00:44:59.340 we're a little bit disgusted at their lack of maturity and they're disgusted at our, uh, propensity
00:45:05.180 for dominating and, um, and having all the answers. And the more mature she becomes, the
00:45:09.580 more she wants to have inequality in the relationship, which was different from the dynamic that attracted
00:45:14.800 the two of them. But there's a, there's a lot of bigger issues that often happen here
00:45:18.740 too. So in the Jeff Bezos case, I don't know the situation personally, but normally speaking
00:45:23.560 or very frequently as a sort of model, um, the, uh, the woman will initially be attracted
00:45:29.480 to a man who is very successful, powerful, um, confident in himself, able to be, uh, has
00:45:35.120 a sense of efficacy. Um, and so, um, but she doesn't realize that it's, um, but that it's
00:45:42.860 exactly those characteristics that will lead to their divorce. Here's why. So, um, what both
00:45:50.560 sexes have an equal need for is a need to feel heard and understood. But as the male, um, who
00:45:57.320 is successful becomes more and more successful, he often learns a series of behaviors that are,
00:46:04.180 uh, that are, that help him become successful at work. That is, are exactly the behaviors
00:46:11.520 that lead him to be unsuccessful in love. So for example, let's say you're a CEO and you're
00:46:17.420 looking for, um, a, a new type of plane and you get, um, a salesperson trying to sell you
00:46:23.840 a special engine, um, that they have for a new plane that will, that they say will be
00:46:28.700 perfect for you. Well, as, as, as a CEO, you're listening to that, um, salesperson speak and
00:46:34.360 you're thinking to yourself, okay, is this salesperson is, um, convincing as another salesperson
00:46:39.640 I had before. And should I also interview somebody else? Uh, will this work for my Chinese
00:46:44.480 market? Uh, will this work for these infrastructure that I already have set up for my Chinese market?
00:46:49.240 Uh, will this, um, you know, and, and it's asking a hundred questions like this while the person is
00:46:55.920 talking. Um, and so that person, the, a good CEO has learned to self-listen, um, to, to be juggling
00:47:05.840 the listening process with the, um, with the yes, but process or what about process and the cross
00:47:12.540 examination process, that skillset for the good CEO becomes so ingrained that when he takes that,
00:47:20.660 that skillset home, and by the way, this can sometimes be happened to women as well. Um,
00:47:26.120 not as frequently, but I'll explain why both frequently and not frequently. So the, the male
00:47:30.860 sales of the male CEO comes home and his wife says, you know, I've had a really difficult day at work,
00:47:36.620 or I've had a difficult day with the children or something's happened in the family. And, um,
00:47:41.740 and the male sees his wife, the woman he loves, the woman he'd probably die for, um, to, is having a
00:47:49.240 problem. And so our instinct when our wife is having a problem is to, while she's talking, to figure out
00:47:54.980 a solution, because instinctively when our wife, who I, we love is bleeding to death, the only way to
00:48:02.740 handle that is to solve the problem, to get the band-aids on her quickly, to get it to the emergency
00:48:07.460 room quickly. And so, um, we, we're, we're behaving with our wife in a way that is looking for the
00:48:14.340 solution while she's talking. Very few CEOs or top-level entrepreneurs realize that there is a
00:48:21.520 solution for your wife's complaints and challenges, and that is to listen. Not only listen by keeping your
00:48:30.500 mouth shut, but also listen by when she's finished the complaining, not coming up with a solution,
00:48:38.820 but rather saying, so, sweetie, what I heard you say was, was this is, and then asking, is that
00:48:45.720 accurate? And then if she says, no, actually, it's mostly accurate. Thank you for listening. But I think
00:48:51.540 you got this wrong. Not saying, no, no, I said that, uh, not becoming defensive about what she feels we got
00:48:57.220 wrong, but being right in there saying, so it's not what I said, but it's this, is that correct?
00:49:03.300 And then she goes, yes, that's correct. Okay. Did I miss anything in understanding what you're saying?
00:49:09.940 Um, yes, I think you miss this. No, no, no. I think I got that. I said that because this, no,
00:49:15.420 shut your mouth, listen, work on what she feels you miss, because the only thing that counts is what
00:49:22.660 she feels that you've missed. And then when she begins to feel safe, because you didn't distort
00:49:27.780 anything and you didn't miss anything saying, is there anything new that you'd like to add that
00:49:32.660 leads to a woman or when a woman does the same thing for a man in reverse, that leads to your partner
00:49:39.620 feeling heard. But the great majority of men move to fixing the problem as opposed to understanding
00:49:49.220 that you can fix the problem by not fixing the problem. The fixing of the problem is the listening
00:49:57.160 process, hearing, um, and then letting your wife or your daughter or your son, um, say, here's what I
00:50:05.720 heard you say, son, daughter, wife, um, mom, dad, um, and then mom and dad, daughter, wife, uh, son feels really
00:50:16.680 heard. And then did I, and being open to anything you distorted, open anything that you missed. And so
00:50:23.840 this is what I teach in my couples communication courses in much greater depth than I've explained
00:50:29.100 here. And invariably one of the men in the course will say, well, no, I'm not really fixing it. Then
00:50:35.020 I'm not really attending to her real needs. She's hurting. Why am I not solving the problem for her?
00:50:40.280 And I have to work with him in hearing the listening process in the way I just described it
00:50:47.380 is the solution. The fixing of it leaves your wife, children, or parents feeling unheard.
00:50:56.260 People need to be heard before they are asking for a solution beyond being heard.
00:51:02.660 So let me, let me ask you a question. I think I'm getting a read on what you're saying. Are you
00:51:06.900 insinuating that we should add term limits to marriage? Absolutely not. Um, the term limits
00:51:14.140 to marriage should be, there should be no term limit to marriage. The ideal, like you get married
00:51:20.300 four years and you campaign with all the family. I think we should go one more four years.
00:51:24.400 You, you, are you saying that's a good idea? Term limits? Yeah, you can do it that way. But I think
00:51:30.100 the, the, um, I think it's the second best way of doing it. I think the best given you
00:51:35.440 a hard time. I mean, let's, let's put this way. I was, I was involved with my wife for 27
00:51:41.240 years and we took eight years before we decided to, uh, we actually got married. And during those
00:51:47.220 sort of, um, first eight years, it was sort of like, you know, re-examining whether this
00:51:52.540 was the right person for us. We were very different people. And so we really needed my couple's
00:51:57.160 communication course to really hear each other really well in order to see that, um, the
00:52:02.180 differences made much less differences, a difference in the love we had. Then, um, 17
00:52:07.240 years ago, we got married, married. And my attitude when I got married, I'm in this forever. Um,
00:52:14.260 you know, there's no, um, I may find another woman attractive, but I've made my commitment.
00:52:19.040 And, and that level of commitment that I made when I got married really was meaningful to me.
00:52:27.160 And there's, there are things that happened in the ceremony of marriage and the ceremony
00:52:30.940 of marriage. You bring the people you love and care for around you. Uh, they see you make
00:52:35.720 that commitment when you make that commitment and you see the people you love, uh, see you
00:52:40.700 make that commitment. Something changes in your brain. Your RCZ, your rostral cingulate zone
00:52:47.220 in your brain, um, is, is knowing that the people who you love are approving of you getting
00:52:55.260 married and they will approve of you more when you remain married. And that gives you a little
00:53:00.900 extra oomph to go through the hard times, um, to, um, to, to work things through that are,
00:53:07.380 that are challenging. And then we had the couples communication course where we're the, the,
00:53:12.260 the, the, the, a very disciplined process of teaching men and women how to listen to each
00:53:19.520 other, uh, that goes beyond anything that I've seen, um, so far. So let me, um, is, if you
00:53:25.160 don't mind us going to the, the, the, cause I only have like seven minutes and I want to
00:53:29.480 make sure I get these two other questions in there as well. Uh, in, on the, in the area,
00:53:33.460 uh, pay gap. So, you know, it's, it's a very common debate that you always hear on the political
00:53:38.860 side that happens. Well, women are not getting paid. It's not fair. It's not this. So one side
00:53:43.360 says female athletes should get paid as much as, uh, male athletes. And then, uh, the argument
00:53:47.780 will be made as female athletes in certain sports like gymnastics is more, but maybe in
00:53:52.340 basketball, it's not more doesn't get as many viewership as male athletes do. What, where
00:53:57.280 did this pay gap, uh, argument come in and does it have any credence? Uh, and if it does
00:54:02.860 in certain industry, is there some areas where it has no credence in? Yes. Well, first of all,
00:54:09.000 this is such an important question that I literally wrote an entire book to answer this
00:54:13.140 question called why men earn more, the startling truth behind the pay gap and what women can
00:54:18.180 do about it. And the most important part of why men earn more, I think is my discussion
00:54:23.940 of the 25 differences between what men do in the workplace and in their work life balance
00:54:32.820 and what women do in their work life balance. So some quick insights, never married men and
00:54:41.820 never married women who have never had children, the never married women out earn the never married
00:54:50.460 men by 17%. And the never married women who have never had children have out earned the never married
00:55:00.300 men who have never had children since the seventies. Wow. So that gives you some sense that it's the pay
00:55:08.620 gap predominantly is not just about these 20 is about these 25 different, um, decisions that men
00:55:15.900 and women make, but it's usually not just men and women or single men and women. It is rather married men
00:55:23.580 and women with children. The pay gap is much, much less about men and women than it is about dads versus moms.
00:55:31.180 When dads become dads, they tend to, um, give up jobs that they are fulfilling that pay less.
00:55:40.460 They love being an elementary school teacher, but they realize that being a superintendent of schools
00:55:45.340 or a principal will pay them twice as much, even though they hate administration. So they give up
00:55:50.940 becoming that passionate elementary school teacher to do something that will support their family better.
00:55:56.300 They love being a musician, an artist, a writer, or an actor. Um, but they all pay very little and
00:56:02.540 starving artists. So they give up those gigs and that those passions of fulfillment to pace, to get
00:56:09.660 something that pays more, but the more fulfilling the job, the less it pays on average, the road to high
00:56:16.780 pay is a toll road men. When they become, when they're just men who are, who don't have children,
00:56:23.900 they, they want to do what's fulfilling, like women do. But when they have children,
00:56:28.540 they're willing to give up doing what's fulfilling to, and look about the things that pay more,
00:56:32.780 that they may like a lot less, that they usually do like a lot less, work more hours than they want
00:56:38.700 to work because their job is no longer to please themselves. Their job is to make sure that their
00:56:44.300 wife and children are secure, can move to good neighborhoods with good schools, and that their wife,
00:56:49.660 that their children have opportunities that they've never had as a result of those sacrifices.
00:56:55.420 And so that's where the pay gap resides. And if you wish to really understand the pay gap,
00:57:01.820 look at those 25 differences in work life choices. And I'll explain in the why men earn more book
00:57:08.380 exactly what those differences are worth financially, and why the great majority of men
00:57:13.980 do work that they like less that earns more, and the great majority of women are more likely to do
00:57:20.300 more fulfilling jobs that earn less. And if you really do want to earn more, you could look at any
00:57:26.860 of those 25 careers and jobs and decisions that men and women make that lead to earning more money. But
00:57:34.860 usually the earning of more money leads to less fulfillment.
00:57:39.020 So I asked you earlier, I said our goal on today's Zoom is to be able to solve the boy crisis in 59
00:57:46.620 minutes. I think we're making some progress. I don't know what you say about that, but I think
00:57:50.380 we made some progress today. Doc, I appreciate you for getting on the Zoom here. I've really enjoyed
00:57:56.220 talking to you. We're going to put the link below to your book, The Boy Crisis, below for people to be
00:58:02.140 able to find it. We'll also put the link to your website where folks can go and find you. But with that
00:58:06.300 being said, thank you so much for your time and being a guest on Valuetainment.
00:58:09.980 It's a total pleasure. I also want to say that a lot of
00:58:13.020 men tell me that they commute or they're working out of the gym and the audible version is really
00:58:17.980 more helpful for them to take in the Boy Crisis book. Fantastic. We'll put the link below.
00:58:23.740 Thank you. Great to talk to you.
00:58:25.900 So do you think there's a boy crisis? Yes, there is. Thumbs up. No, I don't think there's a boy crisis.
00:58:32.300 Thumbs down. But I thought it was very interesting seeing his perspective. If you want to get his
00:58:36.540 book, we'll put the link below. If you enjoyed this interview, I did another interview with
00:58:39.420 Jordan Peterson. This was at the same event when I interviewed Kobe, the late Kobe Bryant,
00:58:45.500 and George Bush. If you've never seen this interview with Jordan Peterson, it's a must-watch.
00:58:49.660 Click over to watch it. And if you haven't subscribed to the channel, please do so.
00:58:53.100 Thanks for watching, everybody. Take care. Bye-bye.