Valuetainment - Valuetainment Exclusive： Sammy ＂The Bull＂ Gravano

00:00:00.000 30 seconds, one time for the underdog, ignition sequence start, let me see you put em up, reach

00:00:09.240 the sky, turn the stars up above, cause it's one time for the underdog, one time for the

00:00:16.240 underdog.

00:00:17.320 I'm Patrick Medebi, host of Alitim, and today's interview is one many of you have been requesting,

00:00:21.780 I'd say for the last probably 18 months, and that is with Sammy, the Bull, Garvano, the

00:00:26.860 underboss to John Gotti from the Gambino family, which is a very, very technical interview,

00:00:32.940 it's the longest sit-down podcast I've ever done in my career, so if you like any of the

00:00:37.980 mock interviews we've done, you're probably going to love this one.

00:00:41.420 Sammy, thanks for making the time to do this interview.

00:00:43.220 It's my pleasure.

00:00:43.900 So Sam, a lot has changed since 1997, we now have social media, we now have smart phones,

00:00:51.320 we now have everybody having a camera, a lot's changed in America, we have Donald Trump as

00:00:55.180 a president, so America's changed, world's changed, has Sammy, the Bull, Garvano changed?

00:00:59.960 To an extent, I mean, I didn't change much like people would think, I'm more coming out

00:01:06.480 into a legitimate business, going into Hollywood, into certain things that I'm doing with my

00:01:12.120 life now, I've changed my life.

00:01:14.540 I still have passion for the mafia, from where it came from, how it started, how it existed,

00:01:20.980 it's part of my heritage, it's not just a gang to me.

00:01:24.160 I was in a gang when I was young, but this isn't a gang, this was part of my heritage.

00:01:28.860 It started in Sicily in the 12th century, it fled to the United States, now when I said

00:01:35.740 it fled, it didn't come here because they liked the United States, they were running away

00:01:40.180 from Mussolini and fascism, and it made them come to the United States, and they landed in

00:01:45.280 the United States, and everything that they were taught in Italy, they brought them here.

00:01:50.160 So I have a different feel for it, that there's some stuff that's ugly, that we did, and I

00:01:56.300 think I'm part of the good, the bad, and certainly the ugly, but I did this because of my belief

00:02:03.540 in goes on Austria.

00:02:05.180 I've changed my ways, and I've moved on with my life, and I'm going in a different direction.

00:02:10.000 Even sitting here talking to you, that's something that you're not supposed to do, goes on Austria.

00:02:16.360 You're not supposed to talk about it.

00:02:18.500 When you flip, or cooperate, whatever you want to call it, you're allowed to do whatever

00:02:22.780 you want, because you already broke the golden rule by cooperating.

00:02:26.900 So, but if you didn't flip, then you're not allowed to do this, because giving up our secrecy,

00:02:33.320 we're a secret society and a brotherhood, and if you give up the secrets, there's no different

00:02:39.060 than taking the stand or doing whatever.

00:02:41.880 You can't give up the secrets of goes on Austria.

00:02:44.260 Even some of the things that John Gotti did running as boss, and people share about what

00:02:48.600 he was doing, he did more damage to goes on Austria with being out there and putting it

00:02:53.900 on Front Street than 10 cooperating witnesses put together.

00:02:58.340 You believe that?

00:02:59.140 Oh, absolutely.

00:03:00.000 Why do you believe that?

00:03:00.920 Most of the real gangsters believe that and know that.

00:03:03.840 I've got 22 years in prisons.

00:03:06.740 I bumped into a lot of guys.

00:03:09.060 And I bumped into people, and I said, listen, you were in a regular prison, now you're in

00:03:13.540 a witness unit.

00:03:14.960 Tell me the truth.

00:03:16.040 What were they saying about me?

00:03:17.260 You were with this guy and this guy and this guy.

00:03:20.260 This guy, Bobby, he was the underboss in Boston.

00:03:22.900 And he told me, Sammy, you want to know the truth?

00:03:24.940 I hear more crying and complaints about John than you.

00:03:28.860 The position he put you in, and he betrayed you.

00:03:31.560 When he betrayed you like that, it was the same as a rat move.

00:03:35.300 In other words, government is trying to put us away.

00:03:37.080 That's their job.

00:03:39.000 Your job as John Gotti is not to put me away.

00:03:41.800 And if that's the role you're going to take so you can get out and I can take the weight,

00:03:46.100 that's a rat move.

00:03:47.300 What happened between me and John, so I did what I did.

00:03:50.560 And now I'm going into a whole different thing.

00:03:53.920 That's all behind me.

00:03:54.800 I see what they do now.

00:03:57.720 I think they're pretty smart now.

00:03:59.780 They went away from violence.

00:04:02.560 They don't do that as much anymore.

00:04:04.360 When I was in my time in the heydays, in the 70s and 80s, there was bodies all over the

00:04:08.720 place by every different family.

00:04:10.600 But today they don't do that.

00:04:11.760 Does it work without violence and structure, though?

00:04:14.480 Isn't it a part of the leverage to impose fear?

00:04:19.100 It could be, but it doesn't have to be.

00:04:21.800 Fear could be in a whole bunch of ways.

00:04:24.020 Let's say you're a maid guy.

00:04:25.240 You're a friend of ours.

00:04:26.080 A friend of ours is a maid guy.

00:04:27.560 You're a friend of ours.

00:04:28.780 So you're not going to abide by the rules.

00:04:31.420 But you're not too worried because I'm not going to kill you.

00:04:34.420 But I could chase you.

00:04:35.760 I could get out to all five families.

00:04:38.100 He's no longer a friend of ours.

00:04:39.880 Don't treat him like that.

00:04:41.900 You're thrown out.

00:04:43.100 Now that's a big hit.

00:04:45.380 So you lose your power and nobody will respect you.

00:04:49.160 Nobody will sit with you.

00:04:50.120 Nobody will recognize you.

00:04:51.660 Sometimes in certain cases, it may even be better to be dead.

00:04:55.800 It's a good punishment.

00:04:57.600 But the effect of not killing.

00:05:01.480 When I was around, every family had a squad of FBI agents who worked on them.

00:05:06.920 Each family.

00:05:07.600 The squad consisted of 20-some-odd agents working on your family.

00:05:13.220 From what I hear now, they're down to three.

00:05:15.600 They used all those extra agents to terrorists and 13, drug gangs, stuff that warrants it.

00:05:23.880 So by them not killing, they don't have the pressure.

00:05:27.900 And then the RICO law and the laws are crippling.

00:05:31.940 So me, you, and another guy, we all trust each other and we go on a murder.

00:05:35.980 Now, the way the law is set, you get convicted on a murder, there's life without parole.

00:05:43.100 Every one of us have a get-out-of-jail card free.

00:05:46.100 Of course, we killed Joe Blow.

00:05:47.260 Well, I get pitched for drugs later and I'm facing 20 or 25 years.

00:05:52.260 I'm 50 years old.

00:05:53.600 I don't want to do it.

00:05:55.140 So I go to the government, me, you, and this other guy, we killed him.

00:05:59.460 They don't trust each other no more.

00:06:00.680 Because the sentences are so big in most cases that guys flip.

00:06:07.380 Some guys don't want to go to jail.

00:06:09.720 Some guys are screwed when they go to jail.

00:06:12.560 You know, I've heard so many stories with guys, black guys, Hispanic guys, who stood up and got sentenced and were doing their time.

00:06:21.320 What did the people do?

00:06:22.180 They took his money while he was gone.

00:06:23.780 They screwed his wife.

00:06:25.580 They did this.

00:06:26.380 They did that.

00:06:27.700 You're begging for this guy to cooperate.

00:06:29.600 He didn't cooperate.

00:06:30.220 And you do these things to him?

00:06:32.000 So he flips.

00:06:33.580 Or you sold him out in some capacity and he flips.

00:06:37.120 Like I did.

00:06:38.100 When John, John told me to my face at the end of the time, he said, Sammy, the tape's horrible.

00:06:44.820 They make you sound like a monster.

00:06:46.800 What are we going to do?

00:06:48.060 So I'm controlling all the lawyers.

00:06:50.060 You're going to take the weight.

00:06:52.380 The lawyers are going to bring it out in court that you're a monster.

00:06:57.200 You killed all these people, took over the unions.

00:07:00.220 Took over businesses, which I never did.

00:07:02.800 During the trial, the lawyers will say, you hear John complaining on the tapes.

00:07:07.300 Poor John Gotti.

00:07:08.480 He lost control of this monster, Sammy the Bull.

00:07:11.600 It's him.

00:07:12.600 It's not John.

00:07:13.620 So I will go free and you'll do the time.

00:07:16.860 I said, are you sure that's what you want me to do?

00:07:19.740 In other words, I worry about the feds trying to put me away.

00:07:23.300 I've been pinched all my life.

00:07:24.820 I've faced that.

00:07:25.520 I never faced my friend, my co-defendant, wanting to put me away.

00:07:30.040 That's what they're doing, John.

00:07:31.500 Is that what you really want to do?

00:07:33.160 It has to be done.

00:07:34.140 The streets needs me, the boss.

00:07:36.660 You're the sacrificial lamb.

00:07:38.540 I said, okay, you're sure.

00:07:40.640 That's the way it is.

00:07:41.960 And I got in touch with the FBI.

00:07:43.600 I flipped and I was gone.

00:07:45.180 That's when I did my first bid of five years.

00:07:47.540 Then I was out for a while, five years.

00:07:49.680 And I went back in on a 20-year sentence.

00:07:51.960 And that sentence, when I started that sentence, I did 17 years, seven months on that sentence.

00:07:58.140 The first six and a half years, I did in the hole.

00:08:00.880 And I got sick in the hole.

00:08:02.700 It took my teeth away, nails.

00:08:05.440 It pre-aged my skin.

00:08:07.100 Most of my hair was lost.

00:08:08.540 And there were reports, he's dying of cancer.

00:08:12.040 He's dying of Hashimoto's disease.

00:08:15.840 All these different things were coming out.

00:08:17.920 But I survived it.

00:08:19.300 And I'm back out.

00:08:20.300 And I'm making my life again.

00:08:22.500 Look who I am.

00:08:23.580 I'm sitting with you talking.

00:08:24.480 It's interesting.

00:08:25.840 But going back, what I'd want to do is pre-even this, I'm curious to know about the Sammy growing up.

00:08:33.040 Like, you growing up in a family in Brooklyn, your mom, your dad, two sisters.

00:08:38.480 I think you're the youngest of three.

00:08:40.260 Who was Sammy growing up?

00:08:41.780 What was your personality like?

00:08:43.080 Even at 10 years old, 12 years old, I'm not even talking 16, in high school with the incident of you and your principal.

00:08:48.720 You know, you punching him in the face.

00:08:50.620 Who were you at 8 years old?

00:08:51.600 Who were you at 10 years old?

00:08:52.540 I think I was just like any other kid.

00:08:54.940 I was the lexic.

00:08:55.720 I was a very slow learner with books.

00:08:58.680 Not with visual things or hearing things, but with books, stuff like that.

00:09:03.800 The number 3 looked like an 8.

00:09:05.500 So I was always wrong.

00:09:07.060 So as soon as the teacher said, what number is that?

00:09:10.940 Now, if it looked like an 8 to me, I would say 3.

00:09:14.400 You're right.

00:09:15.260 Not because I was right, but because I was wrong so many times.

00:09:18.860 So an 8, I knew it wasn't 8, it was 3.

00:09:21.020 And vice versa.

00:09:23.240 And I hung out with kids.

00:09:26.880 And I grew with kids.

00:09:28.640 I mean, just like any other kid.

00:09:31.220 My father was a painter.

00:09:33.480 Then he got lead poisoning and he couldn't paint.

00:09:36.240 There used to be lead in the paint.

00:09:38.560 My mother was a seamstress.

00:09:39.900 So she was so good at it, she worked in a factory in New York for a Jewish contractor.

00:09:46.540 She used to make the dresses for the models that they were going to show the thing and sell it.

00:09:51.900 So the contractor told her, Katie, my name was Kay, and they called her Katie, why don't you open up a small little factory?

00:10:00.320 You're great at this.

00:10:01.380 So she talked to my father.

00:10:03.720 He couldn't paint no more.

00:10:06.080 So they opened up a small little factory together.

00:10:09.320 They knew all the Italian people, all them ladies from Italy who was here.

00:10:12.720 They all know how to sew.

00:10:14.460 And they all went in there and sewed.

00:10:17.160 And they had a little dress factory.

00:10:18.540 And then we used to go in and help from time to time.

00:10:22.440 And I wasn't the youngest of three.

00:10:25.340 I was the youngest of five.

00:10:28.140 My brother died and one of my sisters died before I was even born.

00:10:33.220 And who was left was two sisters.

00:10:36.220 One was nine years older than me.

00:10:37.540 One was five years older than me.

00:10:39.080 Did that feeling of you not getting A3, you know, I see this dyslexic, did that create any rage in you?

00:10:45.640 Like, I'm a little bit different.

00:10:46.800 Why am I being treated this way or not at all?

00:10:49.180 No, no.

00:10:49.480 There was plenty of rage.

00:10:50.900 There was plenty of rage.

00:10:51.800 Absolutely.

00:10:52.540 Since what age?

00:10:53.300 I got left back in the fourth grade.

00:10:54.760 Okay.

00:10:55.100 I don't even know how old you're supposed to be in the fourth grade.

00:10:57.040 But I got left back in the fourth grade.

00:10:59.140 So now when I go forward, they're younger than me.

00:11:04.020 And the teacher would say a certain word, a big word, ask somebody to spell it.

00:11:08.520 I was in the back of the class all the time.

00:11:10.800 And another kid to spell another word, they would get to me and say,

00:11:14.460 Okay, Gravano, spell cat.

00:11:19.040 The whole class would giggle.

00:11:20.440 I was so ashamed and rage, I felt.

00:11:23.840 After school, I beat the shit out of everybody.

00:11:26.120 I was actually older and bigger than them.

00:11:28.060 And I was a strong kid.

00:11:29.380 I beat the shit out of all of them.

00:11:30.900 There was no more laughing.

00:11:31.900 When I hit the seventh grade, I got left back again.

00:11:36.580 And at that point, I said, school's not for me.

00:11:39.220 It's just not for me.

00:11:40.360 And I hardly went.

00:11:41.480 I used to play hooky all the time.

00:11:43.120 And one day, that's how that thing started with the teacher.

00:11:46.660 I got caught by troon officers who went around and caught kids playing hooky.

00:11:50.800 And I was a little drunk.

00:11:52.140 It brought me up to the principal.

00:11:53.840 I was sitting in the principal's office, and he was talking to the principal.

00:11:57.620 And he was saying, this is what they are.

00:12:00.640 The upbringing isn't there.

00:12:02.300 He used the word greaseball.

00:12:03.860 It's a slur, a race is slur against black people.

00:12:07.140 That didn't bother me too much.

00:12:09.280 But when he was saying what kind of people these people are, this is a result.

00:12:14.200 These kind of kids.

00:12:15.800 So at one point, I got up.

00:12:17.640 I said, this has nothing to do with my mother and father.

00:12:20.580 They're hardworking people.

00:12:21.700 This has to do with me.

00:12:23.140 He said something about my mother and father.

00:12:24.900 Again, I cracked him a shot.

00:12:25.960 I broke his jaw.

00:12:27.420 And I was thrown out of school.

00:12:28.920 Months later, in front of the Board of Education, I was transferred to another school.

00:12:33.580 McKinley, junior high school.

00:12:35.460 I was in a different neighborhood, mostly Irish, Polacks.

00:12:38.780 The Irish and the Italian didn't get along at all.

00:12:41.200 I wasn't a bad looking kid.

00:12:42.380 I got along with the girls.

00:12:44.520 But not the boys.

00:12:46.100 Every day I was in a fight.

00:12:47.580 Trouble.

00:12:48.580 Finally, I get thrown out of that school too.

00:12:51.080 I did find a teacher in that school who really tried to help me, a Mr. Mandrake.

00:12:55.360 I respected this guy.

00:12:56.780 He knew I wasn't stupid.

00:12:58.700 He just knew I had a learning problem.

00:13:01.040 Matter of fact, he would even tell me, if you get frustrated, you want to walk out of the class, walk out.

00:13:05.220 And I got to respect this guy a lot.

00:13:06.800 And I actually wanted to make him look good.

00:13:09.360 So I was trying to hang in.

00:13:12.640 But I flunked that school and I was sent to 600 school.

00:13:16.420 And that is all misfits.

00:13:18.200 I was in that school.

00:13:19.680 I think it was the first week there was a guy sitting in front of me.

00:13:22.860 He was dressed in, looked like a robe.

00:13:25.800 And I said something funny.

00:13:28.260 The class was laughing.

00:13:30.080 And he tapped his book, his Bible, on my head, on my forehead.

00:13:33.520 You shouldn't do this.

00:13:34.720 And you're acting.

00:13:35.480 You're the devil.

00:13:36.460 After about the third or fourth time he hit me on the head and when he was talking, I hit him and knocked his ass out.

00:13:42.000 I was thrown out again of 600 school.

00:13:44.920 The Board of Education called me.

00:13:46.820 I was under 16.

00:13:48.560 They said, he's out, suspended.

00:13:50.940 On a 16th birthday, you can come here and sign him out.

00:13:53.820 We never want him back in regular school.

00:13:56.160 And if you don't, we're going to put him in reform school.

00:13:59.460 So the next step was like a kid's jail.

00:14:02.020 So my mother and father kept me out when I was 16.

00:14:04.520 They went there and signed me out.

00:14:06.180 So I felt rage.

00:14:07.760 But what I felt, I felt and I saw the pain in their face.

00:14:12.900 Like they want their son to be successful or do something.

00:14:17.020 It broke their heart.

00:14:18.440 They never hit me.

00:14:19.620 My mother hit me with brooms and mops and whatever.

00:14:22.260 But my father never hit me.

00:14:23.840 Family of love.

00:14:25.420 They loved you.

00:14:26.480 They loved me.

00:14:27.560 They adored me.

00:14:28.600 I was the only boy.

00:14:29.620 I was a little boy.

00:14:30.460 My sisters were older.

00:14:32.020 They would take me.

00:14:33.220 They almost acted like a mother.

00:14:35.300 One of them is five years old and one is nine years older.

00:14:38.500 They're much older than me.

00:14:40.120 Then I found a gang, the Rampers.

00:14:42.700 A street gang, just like any other gang, I guess.

00:14:45.680 Tough kids.

00:14:46.280 We got together and fought and stole and did things.

00:14:50.220 To us, it was the right thing.

00:14:51.540 We were doing the right thing.

00:14:52.840 We were even helping our families who were broke.

00:14:56.220 At this point, you're what?

00:14:57.280 17 years old?

00:14:59.160 No, I'm even in a gang.

00:15:01.880 I'm 14.

00:15:03.020 Oh, 14 you're in a gang.

00:15:04.120 14, 15.

00:15:05.280 Got it.

00:15:06.020 So typically, when somebody joins a gang, there's something missing in the house.

00:15:09.400 Not a father figure or something like that, right?

00:15:12.320 But you have love.

00:15:13.720 Your mom hit you.

00:15:14.340 Your dad didn't hit you.

00:15:15.160 Typically, it's the other way around.

00:15:16.340 We'll forgive mom because it's mom.

00:15:18.040 What could have been done to prevent Sammy Gravano from becoming underboss Sammy the Bull Gravano?

00:15:25.900 Could the system or anything been done to prevent it and squashed it right there

00:15:29.720 and Sammy goes a different direction with his life?

00:15:32.320 I don't think so.

00:15:33.080 I don't think so.

00:15:35.400 First of all, my neighborhood was entrenched.

00:15:38.140 You see the movies Goodfellas and all those.

00:15:40.160 It was entrenched with street mafia people.

00:15:43.440 Now, we weren't in the mafia at that age.

00:15:46.100 We're together.

00:15:47.060 Where is the ramp is?

00:15:48.760 Fuck them and everybody else.

00:15:50.940 We don't want to have nothing to do with them.

00:15:52.720 But it's entrenched.

00:15:53.840 After a while, they're my idols, especially at 17.

00:15:58.320 And you look up to these people.

00:16:01.140 If you didn't look up to them or you went overboard in some way, you got killed in those days.

00:16:06.700 There was bodies all over the place back then.

00:16:10.260 So, whether you liked the guy or didn't like the guy, you knew your place to get away from him.

00:16:15.080 You know, I'll give you an example.

00:16:17.220 One time, my father tells me in the dress factory he's going to ship clothes tomorrow.

00:16:22.400 He wants me to come in and help him clip some threads, put plastic over the dresses that they're going to ship tomorrow.

00:16:28.380 I'm in the back doing that.

00:16:29.600 I see these two big guys come in and they're cursing at my father about the union.

00:16:34.760 They're union guys.

00:16:36.440 And he's non-union.

00:16:37.780 And they're cursing.

00:16:38.580 They're abusing the shit out of him.

00:16:40.220 My father doesn't even look like it's phasing him, like nothing's happening.

00:16:44.000 They walk out and I say, who are they?

00:16:46.380 He says, the union people.

00:16:47.380 Don't worry about it.

00:16:48.520 I say, what do you mean?

00:16:49.120 They said, they're going to come back tomorrow.

00:16:51.920 And if you don't straighten this out, you don't have money.

00:16:55.440 They're going to beat you up.

00:16:56.900 They're going to do this.

00:16:57.700 They'll break your legs.

00:16:58.500 He says, don't worry about it.

00:17:01.320 My gumbada, Savido, I talk to him.

00:17:06.080 They'll take care of this.

00:17:07.100 They got big mouths.

00:17:07.980 Don't worry about it.

00:17:09.160 Don't do nothing.

00:17:10.220 So I went back to the gang that night and told my friends.

00:17:14.120 This guy, Jerry Pappa, was the head of our, the leader of the gang.

00:17:17.940 And I told him.

00:17:19.320 So I says, I'm going to take a couple of guys.

00:17:21.060 We go in with me in the factory.

00:17:23.240 When they come back, if they raise their hands, we're going to break every bone in their body.

00:17:27.560 So Jerry opens up his jacket.

00:17:29.560 He says, Sammy, nah, forget about fighting.

00:17:32.260 Look, he's got a gun.

00:17:34.100 He says, if they raise their hands to your father, kill them.

00:17:38.660 Give us a call.

00:17:40.080 We'll come and get rid of the bodies and the gun and everything.

00:17:42.860 Don't worry about it.

00:17:43.640 Now, I never killed anybody.

00:17:44.980 I never even thought of killing somebody.

00:17:47.000 I was physical with my hands.

00:17:49.580 I took the gun and I put it under my belt.

00:17:54.020 If they raise their hands to my father, I'm going to kill them.

00:17:57.600 So I go there.

00:17:59.580 The next day they come in.

00:18:00.880 I'm ready.

00:18:01.720 They turn around.

00:18:02.540 They tell my father, why didn't you tell us that Suvido is your gumbara?

00:18:07.040 Why didn't you tell us, Jerry?

00:18:09.300 And they're talking sweet to him.

00:18:11.300 If you have any problems with anybody, give us a call.

00:18:13.820 They're giving them their card.

00:18:15.340 Give us a call.

00:18:16.140 We'll take care of it.

00:18:16.900 You could stay non-union.

00:18:18.360 Don't worry about it.

00:18:19.640 And they leave.

00:18:21.100 So I come out.

00:18:21.900 I said, Dad, what the hell was that?

00:18:24.580 What are they talking about?

00:18:25.440 Suvido.

00:18:26.000 Now, I knew the guy because he was my father's gumbara.

00:18:28.400 He was smaller than my father and he was this big, this thin.

00:18:31.500 A good wind could knock him on his ass.

00:18:33.640 What the hell are these big six, two, six, three guys?

00:18:37.300 What are they worried about him?

00:18:38.360 I didn't understand the mafia.

00:18:39.940 So my father says, I told you.

00:18:42.580 We honest people.

00:18:43.700 We work.

00:18:45.180 If we have trouble, we go to people like Suvido and they take care of these problems.

00:18:48.660 Don't be excited.

00:18:51.160 So I said, well, that wouldn't happen.

00:18:53.060 I would have took care of this.

00:18:54.860 How would you take care of these people?

00:18:57.140 And I opened up my shirt and I showed him the gun.

00:19:00.220 My father, it was the first time I thought he was going to hit me.

00:19:02.820 He flipped out.

00:19:03.860 Give me that gun.

00:19:04.620 We don't do that.

00:19:05.360 I told you we're legitimate people.

00:19:07.100 That's the kind of people he was.

00:19:08.480 Sammy, are you alpha or is your dad alpha?

00:19:10.860 Like, you know, just because it's a dad doesn't mean one is a bigger alpha than the other one.

00:19:14.200 Did you have more of an alpha spirit than him?

00:19:16.380 Oh, I'm much more of an alpha.

00:19:17.600 You're much more than him.

00:19:18.800 So let me ask you, how much of you becoming who you became has to do with your environment

00:19:24.340 and how much of it has to do with your DNA and your wiring and the way you're born?

00:19:27.820 Environment, experiences, teacher, 8-3, dyslexic, bullying, punching a principal versus your DNA, your wiring.

00:19:35.840 I believe it's the neighborhood, the environment is one thing.

00:19:41.160 I don't think it's my DNA.

00:19:43.700 If there was help in schools, I could have graduated.

00:19:47.560 I got out of the 8th grade.

00:19:50.240 That was my last day in school.

00:19:51.820 I never even went to high school.

00:19:53.620 I ran unions and businesses all over New York and shocked the whole world what I did.

00:19:59.320 It's in every book, every movie.

00:20:01.680 I've met with lawyers and dealt with lawyers.

00:20:04.700 When I look at them, I say, my God, what do you have?

00:20:07.680 The lexical?

00:20:08.460 What'd you do?

00:20:09.180 In other words, you went to school, you passed some tests.

00:20:11.160 He's dumbing than wood.

00:20:12.020 I think I'm smarter than him, so I don't think I can't mind.

00:20:16.260 I sit down and I've done businesses all day long.

00:20:20.000 I just got out of prison not even two years.

00:20:22.740 September will be two years.

00:20:24.680 I'm sitting down going forward in Hollywood.

00:20:28.700 I'm working on a podcast, a lot of content about my life.

00:20:33.780 It's not an easy thing to get to that point.

00:20:36.360 I'm working on a book, a possible scripted show down the road.

00:20:39.700 I sit down with businessmen all the time.

00:20:42.820 I sit down with guys, producers and heavyweights in Hollywood.

00:20:45.940 And they say, a couple of them told me,

00:20:48.460 Sammy, you talk like a gangster.

00:20:51.500 You're rough talking.

00:20:52.380 You curse a little bit.

00:20:53.560 You talk rough, but you're super fucking smart.

00:20:56.540 You're coming up.

00:20:57.260 You just got into this industry.

00:20:59.620 And you're making moves and talking with people like you've been here 100 years.

00:21:05.320 So I told them, when your kids are born, make sure they're delixic.

00:21:10.100 And they'll be good too.

00:21:12.200 But I have enough brains.

00:21:14.520 I relate it to when I watch the news tonight all the time.

00:21:17.880 These kids will go around shooting people.

00:21:19.820 The news asks a million questions.

00:21:21.900 Just like you asked.

00:21:22.940 Why?

00:21:23.520 How come?

00:21:24.280 We're going to gun control.

00:21:25.900 What's guns got to do with it?

00:21:27.540 Now, I'm putting my criminal hat on.

00:21:29.460 Go ahead.

00:21:30.220 Do gun control.

00:21:31.100 Take away guns from all the good people.

00:21:35.900 I will always have a gun.

00:21:38.280 Every criminal will always have a gun.

00:21:40.580 It doesn't come from different states.

00:21:42.820 It can come from different countries.

00:21:44.780 And if you were probably when you were younger, you heard the thing, a zip gun.

00:21:48.320 They can make a gun.

00:21:49.720 We made silences.

00:21:51.420 So that's not going to help nobody.

00:21:53.720 What it's going to do is a girl is home with her kids.

00:21:58.380 Some guy is stalking her.

00:21:59.920 He wants to rape her.

00:22:01.100 But he's always questioning, if I kick that door in to protect her kids and herself, she might have a gun and blow my head off.

00:22:08.860 But take away all that protection.

00:22:11.040 She's going to get slaughtered.

00:22:12.340 What about how many times did people with legitimate guns save so many people or stop somebody who's completely out of their mind?

00:22:21.300 This is a problem of people growing up.

00:22:24.920 The first problem at home.

00:22:26.920 We all know our kids.

00:22:29.400 Our own kids.

00:22:30.080 You know if the kid's a little weird or he's a little upset and he's not thinking right.

00:22:35.720 You know it.

00:22:36.200 But nobody will ever call the cops or anybody on their kids.

00:22:41.600 They feel like they're giving their kids up.

00:22:43.740 It's a normal reaction.

00:22:45.080 He's going to be great.

00:22:46.720 You wait and see.

00:22:47.660 He'll change.

00:22:49.060 He gets worse.

00:22:49.740 So now he goes to school.

00:22:51.800 The teachers see it.

00:22:53.200 But there's so many laws and rules if the teacher says I'm going to send Jimmy to psych.

00:23:01.000 The family will sue.

00:23:02.560 He'll get fired.

00:23:04.460 So you're tying the hands of teachers.

00:23:07.060 So this kid just goes and goes and goes and goes.

00:23:10.240 By the time he goes out and shoots, God forbid, 14 people, there's always a line of people saying, yeah.

00:23:18.760 When you look back, I knew this kid would be the worst.

00:23:22.200 But nobody ever said nothing or did nothing.

00:23:25.260 That's environment.

00:23:26.800 That's not delxic.

00:23:27.880 That's not a slow liner because the school system should never.

00:23:32.340 If I wouldn't have been called delexical, if they would have known how to treat it, I don't know what I would have been.

00:23:38.240 I might have been a doctor.

00:23:39.260 I might have been a lawyer.

00:23:40.060 I really don't know.

00:23:40.940 Oh, so you do believe you could have gone a different direction if somebody got a hold of you early.

00:23:45.020 Oh, absolutely.

00:23:45.820 Okay.

00:23:46.380 So this is so.

00:23:47.620 Got it.

00:23:48.020 So you did say there was environment.

00:23:49.400 But now you're saying if somebody worked with you, tutored you, developed you, maybe you would have gone a different direction.

00:23:56.920 Absolutely.

00:23:57.280 I'm saying the same thing now about these kids who shoot people.

00:23:59.960 If you were to grab those people years ago and said, there's a problem with this kid, let's tutor him.

00:24:05.480 Let's send him to special places.

00:24:07.240 Let's take care of him.

00:24:08.680 Maybe that kid, when he's 16, 18, 21, whatever the hell he is, he wouldn't be shooting all these people.

00:24:14.620 The kid is bent.

00:24:15.680 It's not the gun.

00:24:16.940 Now, if you took all the guns away and one of these kids run into a disco and he cuts loose with a bomb, instead of shooting 14 people,

00:24:25.860 60 people, 60 people are dead.

00:24:28.100 Are you happy?

00:24:29.540 He don't have a gun.

00:24:31.040 What are you going to say then?

00:24:32.180 We shouldn't have bombs?

00:24:33.200 Of course we shouldn't have bombs.

00:24:34.320 But it's the kid.

00:24:35.500 We're never going to the problem.

00:24:37.420 And they always ask this stupid question.

00:24:41.100 What could we do?

00:24:42.740 How could we stop it?

00:24:44.340 You can't.

00:24:45.580 The guy is nuts.

00:24:46.660 Even gangs, street gangs, the mafia, they don't run around shooting innocent people.

00:24:52.940 We shoot each other when we break rules.

00:24:55.460 We don't run around shooting innocent people.

00:24:58.260 People will tell you live in tough neighborhoods, Italian neighborhoods, years ago.

00:25:02.820 The mafia was actually a safe place for them.

00:25:06.300 They didn't allow a rapist or a child molester.

00:25:10.120 I'll give you an example.

00:25:10.920 I'm in front of my place, I hang out, and there's this beautiful woman.

00:25:14.800 She had a baby, now she's back in shape.

00:25:17.540 She's drop dead gorgeous, and she's walking.

00:25:19.720 She walks right past where we stay.

00:25:22.380 We're sitting outside with beach chairs, talking.

00:25:25.560 It's not like the movies.

00:25:26.820 People hooting and howling.

00:25:28.320 Maybe on a construction crew, but we don't do that.

00:25:31.380 I tell my people, you do that, this is our people.

00:25:33.700 This is our neighborhood.

00:25:34.740 Don't do that.

00:25:35.500 If I hear you doing something, no, Sam, we know, we ain't going to do that.

00:25:39.520 So you'd say to yourself, she knows she's drop dead gorgeous.

00:25:42.580 Why is she walking right past us on our side of the street?

00:25:46.460 You know the answer?

00:25:48.180 Does she feel safer?

00:25:49.740 Absolutely.

00:25:50.620 She don't want to walk on the other side because people will not, who, now,

00:25:54.900 she's likely to get raped or robbed or something.

00:25:58.580 And when I say the other side, it could be around the block.

00:26:01.020 She's comfortable here.

00:26:02.500 She knows she's not going to get hurt.

00:26:04.480 Her husband allows her.

00:26:06.660 Yeah, go on 18th there.

00:26:07.600 Go right past them.

00:26:08.400 Stay by, because we wouldn't allow nothing to happen to her.

00:26:12.120 There's a different vibe.

00:26:13.840 I mean, even though they're, you know, like people say, he's a killer.

00:26:17.480 He was involved in 19 murders.

00:26:19.820 I was involved in three mafia wars.

00:26:23.140 I was involved in two different families.

00:26:25.580 You could say whatever you want to say.

00:26:27.380 But the reality is like, what do we do to stop this?

00:26:31.820 Change the environment.

00:26:33.680 Change the kid who's sick coming up.

00:26:35.580 Change the kid who's dyslexic.

00:26:37.960 Do something to help these.

00:26:39.300 Intervene then.

00:26:40.960 Years ago, there was, when I was a kid growing up, there was mental institutions.

00:26:45.420 Then they took them away.

00:26:47.700 There's no mental institutions.

00:26:49.080 I heard Trump saying, we better start building them again.

00:26:52.820 You bet your sweet ass you should start building them again.

00:26:56.280 Put people in there, not to do time, but to rehabilitate them, to help them.

00:27:01.280 Look what we have in cities.

00:27:02.760 We have zones where it's safe for people who are committing crimes.

00:27:06.860 There's so many stupid laws that it's pathetic.

00:27:11.000 It's tying the hands of everybody, and it's deteriorating the country.

00:27:15.040 So you're for Second Amendment.

00:27:16.880 Oh, absolutely.

00:27:17.500 That would be an understatement.

00:27:19.280 And this is coming from a former underboss who, for the criminal, if they banned guns,

00:27:27.320 they would have an edge.

00:27:28.900 And you're saying to keep the guns is going to keep the citizens safer.

00:27:33.340 Absolutely.

00:27:34.120 Listen, how many shootings are there?

00:27:35.720 10, 20, 30?

00:27:37.720 There's 300 and something million people in this country.

00:27:40.380 The numbers just don't jive.

00:27:42.440 And how many guns are out there?

00:27:44.520 They say 200 million guns, so you had 30 shootings.

00:27:49.600 I mean, that's nothing.

00:27:50.840 How many car accidents did you have?

00:27:52.440 How many drunken drivers killed people?

00:27:54.860 How many?

00:27:55.780 Did we take cars away?

00:27:57.100 We're trying to control the person who's drinking and driving.

00:28:01.560 We have to control the people who are going to have guns.

00:28:04.920 Listen, I'm for the Second Amendment.

00:28:07.520 But I do think, on the other hand, looking at it the other way, I used to go hunting.

00:28:13.040 I would shoot a rifle.

00:28:14.960 That was a bolt action.

00:28:16.280 I missed the deer.

00:28:17.420 I bolted again.

00:28:18.640 Boom.

00:28:19.060 Missed the deer.

00:28:19.940 He got away.

00:28:20.720 They have guns now that shoot 100 bullets with a semi-automatic like a machine gun.

00:28:26.240 So in 10 seconds, he could unload 200 bullets.

00:28:29.980 Do you need 200 bullets to kill a deer?

00:28:32.320 No.

00:28:33.180 So they could limit some of that power.

00:28:36.680 Those, and I was in the military.

00:28:38.040 So those are military guns.

00:28:40.700 A .30 caliber.

00:28:42.020 The thing you knock half of your body off when you get hit.

00:28:44.680 What do you need a .30 caliber for?

00:28:46.740 Why do they need a .30 caliber?

00:28:48.600 You need a gun to protect your house.

00:28:51.360 A .38, a handgun.

00:28:52.820 A shotgun.

00:28:53.920 A gun with a bolt that only shoots one at a time.

00:28:57.600 It's fine.

00:28:58.300 You can protect your family.

00:28:59.600 She can protect herself.

00:29:00.920 So I agree with that.

00:29:02.740 There's too much power.

00:29:04.980 And when you get a nut and you give him that much power, then you're waiting for something

00:29:11.480 major to happen.

00:29:12.580 So you leave 16, 17 years old and you go in the military.

00:29:16.180 You become a corporal in the U.S. Army.

00:29:18.360 I think you served two years, honorable discharge.

00:29:20.760 You go to Fort Jackson, South Carolina.

00:29:23.640 You're working as a, I think as a cook, was your MOS.

00:29:27.240 Then you get out.

00:29:28.180 How did you get introduced to Colombo?

00:29:30.040 And then how did you go from there to Gambino?

00:29:31.560 Well, I was introduced by, as soon as I got out of the Army at 21, I wasn't a cook.

00:29:36.980 I was a communications.

00:29:39.520 I worked in a kitchen and had a problem in the kitchen one time.

00:29:42.440 And it involved racism.

00:29:44.100 There was a black guy serving.

00:29:46.060 And I was serving next to him on the line.

00:29:48.980 And a couple of hillbillies came by.

00:29:52.420 I knew about racism, but not like this.

00:29:55.720 I saw it in South Carolina.

00:29:57.280 It was a whole different level.

00:29:59.520 I never saw it like this.

00:30:00.440 So when he went to him, the black guy right in front of me, he's calling, boy this, boy that.

00:30:05.820 Go get that, boy.

00:30:07.000 Give me more, boy.

00:30:08.120 And I'm listening.

00:30:09.160 Black guy was a pretty strong-looking guy.

00:30:11.900 He didn't seem to faze him none.

00:30:14.380 Didn't bother him none.

00:30:16.080 And then the guy came to me.

00:30:17.820 He started with me.

00:30:18.660 Because they look at, I came from New York.

00:30:21.120 Hey, boy.

00:30:22.200 Fill my tray.

00:30:23.540 So I got this long metal spoon.

00:30:25.340 I'm filling the compartment with the beans or whatever it was.

00:30:28.580 And it's starting to drip over.

00:30:29.920 So I stopped.

00:30:30.620 And he looks at me and he says, he throws everything on the counter.

00:30:34.320 And he said, boy, when I tell you, whoop it on me, you whoop it on me.

00:30:39.720 And he's got an empty tray and he puts it back out.

00:30:42.160 Whoop it on me, huh?

00:30:43.680 And I whack him with the spoon in the head.

00:30:45.880 And he goes, flying back.

00:30:47.420 But I wasn't all that smart because the next two guys were his friends.

00:30:50.960 And his friend hits me with a tray.

00:30:53.320 And I go flying backwards a little bit.

00:30:55.360 And the black guy was from the Bronx.

00:30:57.620 We were friendly.

00:30:58.680 He jumps over the thing and he starts throwing punches.

00:31:02.840 I get back over.

00:31:04.340 The whole place is in the head.

00:31:06.260 We're fighting like crazy.

00:31:07.860 So we're sitting.

00:31:08.440 The MPs come.

00:31:09.180 We're sitting on the floor, me and the black guy.

00:31:11.720 And a sergeant comes.

00:31:13.960 He's 78, something like that.

00:31:15.640 He's in charge of the MPs and he's a big black guy.

00:31:19.720 And he looks at me and he said, you like helping black people, boy?

00:31:24.560 He thinks that I jumped in to help him.

00:31:28.480 But it was the other way around.

00:31:30.360 But I'm not a jerk.

00:31:31.360 I was going to take advantage of it.

00:31:32.940 I said, well, that's what you do.

00:31:34.780 I'm from New York.

00:31:36.260 I don't believe in this bullshit.

00:31:38.420 And he winks at me.

00:31:39.200 He said, I know I'm not in trouble.

00:31:40.420 And I'm never online again.

00:31:42.180 I'm in the back with him.

00:31:43.880 Peeling potatoes when we come on.

00:31:45.260 So that's what I was.

00:31:46.260 But in the Army, I was in communications.

00:31:48.840 So when I get out, I get out at 21.

00:31:50.860 I'm right back in the rampers.

00:31:52.820 Not even one day goes by.

00:31:54.940 I go to the family and I go right to the rampers.

00:31:57.860 Two years, I'm back.

00:31:58.780 And then at the age of 23, a friend of mine, Tommy Spiro, says his uncle, Shorty Spiro, his name was Tommy as well, wants to see me.

00:32:10.420 And he's a heavyweight guy.

00:32:11.900 He's in the Colombo family.

00:32:13.260 He's very well known.

00:32:14.920 A heavyweight.

00:32:15.840 He was in the original Gallo war.

00:32:18.540 So I meet with him.

00:32:19.540 And he says, listen, I hear a lot of good things about you.

00:32:22.480 I know a lot of things about you.

00:32:24.060 You're going to get killed.

00:32:25.180 He said, you're too damn tough.

00:32:27.400 You don't want to listen.

00:32:29.220 You can't run around.

00:32:30.560 You're not hooked up.

00:32:31.580 You've got to hook up with people.

00:32:32.720 I would like you to be with me.

00:32:35.380 I will never lie to you.

00:32:37.040 I will never backstab.

00:32:39.080 Whatever I asked you to do, I already did.

00:32:42.640 It was music to my ear.

00:32:44.280 He says, in my crew, you're going to be part of my family.

00:32:48.320 I joined up.

00:32:49.800 I went with him.

00:32:51.020 I started having trouble with Carmine Persico.

00:32:53.820 Not trouble.

00:32:54.660 He was using me to do things.

00:32:57.240 Give this guy a beating.

00:32:58.500 Do this.

00:32:59.020 Do that.

00:32:59.860 And I was doing all those things.

00:33:01.200 Now, his brother, Ralph Sparrow, wanted to put his son in.

00:33:06.340 So he has an argument with Shorty.

00:33:08.480 Why do you keep bringing Sammy to Junior?

00:33:11.600 And he said, listen, bro, I don't bring him there.

00:33:15.060 Junior's asking for him to come down.

00:33:17.860 He tells me.

00:33:19.340 And I bring him down.

00:33:20.680 So a lot of jealousy.

00:33:22.640 I'm behind my back.

00:33:23.400 I didn't know that was happening.

00:33:25.340 And at one point, there was a guy with us, Ralph Iranga.

00:33:29.120 He went on a stick-up with another crew.

00:33:33.380 And he gets into a gun battle with three or four detectives.

00:33:38.420 And he gets hit 11 times and dies.

00:33:40.720 I'm in Shipset Bay in a dark, dingy, bullshit bar.

00:33:45.460 Talking to the old man, Johnny Rizzo, who's a made guy.

00:33:48.500 And a couple of other people, Louie Melito, my guimbada alley boy.

00:33:54.380 And a few other people.

00:33:55.540 We're talking.

00:33:56.480 And this beautiful-looking blonde comes in, short skirt, high heels, big blonde hair.

00:34:03.100 In those days, they used to tease it.

00:34:05.060 And she comes in with a guy, a well-built guy.

00:34:08.000 And they sit at the other end of the bar.

00:34:09.940 Very dark, Johnny.

00:34:10.860 You could hardly see them.

00:34:11.740 I mean, you've seen them, but you can't recognize who they are.

00:34:14.820 The old man, Rizzo, tells me.

00:34:16.440 He says, Sammy, I think this girl is trying to make a play for you.

00:34:20.720 She's eyeballing you.

00:34:22.080 I think he's breaking my chops, because we always break each other's chops with things.

00:34:25.800 So I said, come on, Johnny.

00:34:26.900 She's sitting with a guy.

00:34:28.520 We're going to talk.

00:34:29.380 We're going to wind up in a fight.

00:34:31.680 Come on.

00:34:32.340 Stop.

00:34:33.040 And we keep talking.

00:34:34.580 Louie Melito tells me, Sammy, I don't think he's breaking your chops.

00:34:37.920 She's looking at you every two seconds.

00:34:39.500 He says, what are you, stupid, you don't see it?

00:34:41.820 I can hardly see her.

00:34:43.460 So how do you know she's looking this way?

00:34:45.080 How do you know she's looking at me?

00:34:46.320 She's looking at you.

00:34:47.580 All of a sudden, the guy gets up and goes to the bathroom.

00:34:49.940 And she gets up and starts walking towards us.

00:34:52.540 Rizzo hits me in the back.

00:34:54.600 I told you, go over and see what she wants.

00:34:57.340 So I walk over, and who is it?

00:34:59.860 I'm about as close as I am to you.

00:35:02.840 It's Rousfi Ranga's wife.

00:35:04.940 He's dead a week and a half.

00:35:06.560 I look at her, and she didn't have that hair like that.

00:35:10.120 She never looked like that to me.

00:35:11.740 And I said, what are you doing?

00:35:13.100 Your husband just died.

00:35:14.480 Who's this guy?

00:35:16.300 She said, Sammy, life goes on.

00:35:18.760 Life goes on.

00:35:19.880 He's not even fucking cold yet.

00:35:22.360 You can't wait a while?

00:35:23.500 She says, I see the way you used to look at me.

00:35:26.560 Maybe I could get rid of it.

00:35:27.700 Maybe me, what?

00:35:30.100 Get the fuck away.

00:35:31.780 I went into a rage with her.

00:35:34.200 She got terrified.

00:35:35.700 She left.

00:35:37.260 The guy left.

00:35:37.980 When the guy came out, we told him, he said, what's the matter?

00:35:40.860 Get her and get out while you can.

00:35:43.220 Go.

00:35:43.760 So he did.

00:35:44.640 The next day, she went to Ralph and told Ralph.

00:35:47.760 So Ralph takes this as a thing.

00:35:51.740 He's going to undermine me.

00:35:53.040 He don't know there's all them people there.

00:35:55.240 He's going to make up a story that I try to make her.

00:35:58.240 She wouldn't go with me, and I'm abusing her.

00:36:00.140 He calls my wife and tells my wife, Junior, Carmine Persico, he's going to kill your fucking

00:36:06.740 husband.

00:36:07.900 He tried to make Ralph Ranga's wife.

00:36:10.920 He's dead, and he hangs up on my wife.

00:36:13.260 My wife really is not a typical gangster's wife.

00:36:17.480 I come home.

00:36:18.100 She's hysterical, crying.

00:36:19.360 What did you do?

00:36:20.380 What are you talking about, what I did?

00:36:21.940 What did I do?

00:36:22.940 What are you crying about?

00:36:24.620 And she says, you tried to make Ralph his wife.

00:36:27.220 What are you, crazy?

00:36:28.420 Who told you that?

00:36:29.540 Ralph called me and told me, and she told me everything he said.

00:36:32.520 So I said, Deb, listen to me, baby.

00:36:34.560 Stop crying.

00:36:36.120 This life is so technical.

00:36:38.020 Make sure that every word you tell me is exactly right.

00:36:43.280 Tell it to me again.

00:36:45.020 If there's anything wrong, we're through.

00:36:47.440 She tells me the same story.

00:36:48.740 She can't even stop crying.

00:36:49.940 I go inside.

00:36:50.740 I go in the drawer.

00:36:51.400 I get a gun.

00:36:52.260 I get in my car, and I go to Ralph's house.

00:36:54.300 I go to the door, and we were like good fellas.

00:36:56.380 We all lived together.

00:36:57.940 So Ann, his wife, comes to the door.

00:37:00.820 Hey, Sammy, what's up?

00:37:03.000 I said, I had taken out the gun.

00:37:04.760 And I had it by my, the back by my ass.

00:37:08.100 As soon as he came to the door, I was going to kill him.

00:37:10.080 Right in front of me.

00:37:10.760 And I was so hot.

00:37:12.480 She said, did something go wrong?

00:37:14.700 Ralph took off an hour or two ago.

00:37:16.900 Is there a problem?

00:37:18.420 No, there's no problem.

00:37:19.280 Just tell him I was here.

00:37:20.400 So when I went to turn to walk, she saw the gun.

00:37:24.000 And she told Shorty and Ralph.

00:37:26.220 And he came to the house with a gun to kill Ralph.

00:37:30.080 So there's, I'm only supposed to get a tremendous beating.

00:37:33.380 They're setting me up.

00:37:34.380 The old man Rizzo comes to me again, found out about it, and said, don't go to this meeting.

00:37:39.560 I said, how could I not go?

00:37:42.580 These are my people.

00:37:43.920 John, this is none of your business.

00:37:45.880 You're in, you're with the Gambinos.

00:37:47.240 It's none of your business.

00:37:48.920 That's what you're going to be told.

00:37:50.060 You can't do nothing for me.

00:37:51.360 He said, well, you got to do something.

00:37:52.380 What do you want me to do, run away?

00:37:53.660 I didn't do nothing.

00:37:54.600 So he stays with me.

00:37:56.560 We go and see Shorty.

00:37:57.780 Shorty gets together and says, listen, John, this is none of your business.

00:38:02.140 But John tells him, listen, it's none of my business.

00:38:05.320 You're right.

00:38:05.960 But I want to tell you what I saw.

00:38:08.680 And he tells him exactly what happened.

00:38:11.640 He said, Louie Melito, who's in the car, you want him to come here?

00:38:14.920 He was there.

00:38:16.120 Allie boy was with the Genovese people.

00:38:17.900 He was there.

00:38:18.640 Mikey, who's with these people, he was there.

00:38:20.560 You want to talk to all of them?

00:38:22.400 That's not what happened.

00:38:24.000 Shorty looks at me and says, I knew this fucking kid didn't do that, wouldn't do that.

00:38:29.740 And he gives me a hug and a kiss.

00:38:31.240 He says, go home and don't come out until I let you know.

00:38:34.540 Now, unbeknownst to me, the head of the Columbo's, Carmine was in jail.

00:38:39.620 Allie boy Parsico Sr. was the concierge.

00:38:42.520 He was acting boss.

00:38:44.140 And this went to Johnny Rizzo's captain, who was a guy named Tato Arello, right up to Carlo Gambino.

00:38:50.220 And bosses made a decision on what to do.

00:38:53.600 The next day, I would get in Tato's car.

00:38:55.940 I knew his son, but I never knew him.

00:38:58.540 I knew he was a heavyweight gangster.

00:39:00.220 He was a captain, a heavyweight.

00:39:01.920 I get in his car, and we go down to Carroll Street, downtown Brooklyn.

00:39:05.320 They talk a little bit.

00:39:07.120 Allie boy Parsico calls me on the side.

00:39:09.920 He said, we know the whole thing.

00:39:11.960 I should give you permission to kill Ralph, what he did.

00:39:15.780 He mentioned my brother's name.

00:39:18.280 If you would have got killed, your wife would have thought, my brother did it, or ordered it.

00:39:23.920 He deserves to get killed for that.

00:39:25.840 But what he did to you, he deserves to get killed.

00:39:29.060 But I can't tell you to kill him because he showed his brother.

00:39:33.000 We can't do it.

00:39:34.200 So we're going to reach a conclusion here on what's going to happen.

00:39:38.100 We're definitely not going to kill you.

00:39:39.860 You didn't do nothing.

00:39:40.560 And you acted like a fucking man.

00:39:43.140 Were you going to shoot him when you got to the door?

00:39:45.820 Absolutely.

00:39:47.360 That's why I had the gun out.

00:39:49.060 I was definitely going to shoot him.

00:39:51.260 They already knew I was a shooter.

00:39:53.240 All right.

00:39:53.700 We can't keep you in this family no more.

00:39:55.860 Because if we keep this together, it's going to explode.

00:40:00.760 The Gambinos talk for you.

00:40:02.120 We're going to release you to the Gambino family with no restrictions.

00:40:06.820 We're always going to be your friend.

00:40:09.120 You've got to give me one promise that you won't hurt Ralph Spiello.

00:40:12.860 So if that's what the decision is, okay.

00:40:15.100 I turn around and get back in the car with Tato.

00:40:17.240 Tato, we're going back.

00:40:19.140 And he says, from here on in, you're with us.

00:40:22.400 You're with me directly.

00:40:24.060 You embarrass me, us.

00:40:27.000 Do anything without my permission, you'll die in this family right away.

00:40:32.400 No questions asked.

00:40:33.860 We went on a limb for you.

00:40:35.760 I says, all right.

00:40:36.780 I want you in my fucking club every day.

00:40:40.260 Sit with me.

00:40:41.380 I'm going to know every time you get a pimple.

00:40:43.780 Every time you get laid.

00:40:45.360 No matter what the fuck you do in life, I'm going to know.

00:40:49.060 I'm going to get to know you better than you know yourself.

00:40:52.240 My life starts in the Gambino family.

00:40:54.640 And it's a whole nother story.

00:40:55.800 And I can't get into too much.

00:40:57.000 I think I'm getting into too much already.

00:40:58.660 People from the book and the podcast are going to go apeshit on me when they hear this.

00:41:03.380 I guess the part is, though, so now you get in.

00:41:06.980 And at what point do you get introduced to Gotti, where you and Gotti's relationship starts developing?

00:41:12.640 I don't mean Gotti.

00:41:13.760 Gotti does something and goes to Jeff for a little while, a couple of years.

00:41:18.180 That guy they shot in the bar, he didn't even shoot him.

00:41:21.300 That's what was in the movie, but that's not true.

00:41:23.240 Let me ask you just a question before you go.

00:41:25.180 I've heard two stories that Gotti and Junior never killed anybody.

00:41:28.920 From your experiences, did you ever hear about them killing anybody themselves?

00:41:32.300 Not putting the hit in somebody else doing the work, them doing it themselves?

00:41:36.400 I don't think so.

00:41:37.440 I don't remember if he pulled the trigger, if he didn't pull the trigger.

00:41:41.200 But I'll tell you right now, I would bank on him not being able to shoot you.

00:41:45.700 You wouldn't bank on him not being able to shoot you?

00:41:47.540 Yeah, he'd shoot you in a fucking hot minute like that.

00:41:49.900 I don't know about John Junior, but the father would kill you in a hot minute.

00:41:55.300 I didn't pull the trigger all the time.

00:41:57.360 I was basically the guy who headed and planned the hit.

00:42:02.280 And let me tell you really quick how that happened.

00:42:04.720 Tato really got to know me and he said,

00:42:07.540 Sammy, why are you always the front guy in when you go steal?

00:42:11.640 With your goombada alley boy, you go in, you're the first guy, stick him up, do this, do that.

00:42:16.080 Why are you always the first guy in?

00:42:17.860 So I said, I don't know, that's just the way we do it.

00:42:22.960 And alley boy, he's my goombada, he's got my back, he's a tough guy.

00:42:27.720 So he says, listen, I know he's a tough guy, but alley boy's not that smart.

00:42:33.500 Would you agree with that?

00:42:35.020 Yeah, yeah, he's a little, he's dumb as wood sometimes.

00:42:40.100 Okay, so you are smart.

00:42:42.800 He said, you know what happens?

00:42:44.740 You go in, he's taking you back.

00:42:47.580 Something happens, he has to rearrange everything and make things happen so you just get away.

00:42:55.140 And he ain't got the brains.

00:42:56.700 Don't you think it should be the other way around?

00:42:59.100 He goes in first, you have his back.

00:43:01.800 If something happens, you can react like this.

00:43:05.740 He can't.

00:43:06.740 And if he does react like that, it's always going to be something crazy.

00:43:11.900 And I love alley boy, I'm not knocking him, he's telling me.

00:43:14.980 And I love him too, he's my goombada.

00:43:16.500 He's my, he's godfather to my daughter.

00:43:18.740 You know, he's reactionary.

00:43:20.600 He just reacts.

00:43:22.300 He don't think when he reacts.

00:43:24.360 So I said, I never looked at it that way.

00:43:27.980 He said, later on in life, when you're going to do a hit, it's not the guy who pulls the trigger you got to worry about.

00:43:34.600 It's the guy who plans it.

00:43:36.100 The guy who plans that that guy can't get away.

00:43:40.400 Number one.

00:43:42.460 And number two, that you all get away.

00:43:45.500 You're a planner.

00:43:46.700 Go home and look in the fucking mirror.

00:43:49.180 Stop running in first.

00:43:51.060 Think.

00:43:52.020 Use your head.

00:43:52.840 And I thought about it, and he was right.

00:43:56.000 I thought he was 100% right.

00:43:57.720 I more or less did the planning of it.

00:44:00.800 But if you think that I would hesitate, I'm pulling the trigger because I'm the planner and not the actual shooter.

00:44:09.280 And it was said, anybody could shoot a gun.

00:44:12.840 You're pulling the trigger.

00:44:13.740 Interesting.

00:44:14.520 So how many of the 19 did you pull the trigger on?

00:44:17.480 I'm not even going to get into that because it doesn't matter.

00:44:20.400 And there's, by now I'm going to have problems with all kinds of victims saying all kinds of things.

00:44:25.400 So I'm not going to get into that.

00:44:26.340 So in your world, calling it means a hit on you, meaning you, that counts as one of your 19.

00:44:33.120 19 doesn't mean that you shot.

00:44:34.680 Any role you take.

00:44:37.000 You know what I'm asking here.

00:44:37.980 Yes.

00:44:38.340 Yes, yes.

00:44:39.000 But any role you take in that murder, you're part of it.

00:44:43.160 Listen, there's a couple of guys sitting here.

00:44:45.780 Okay.

00:44:46.480 Okay?

00:44:46.960 And we're going to hit this guy, this one guy.

00:44:49.560 And you're in on it.

00:44:51.340 This guy's in on it.

00:44:52.580 This guy here, over here, he's going to pull the trigger and shoot him.

00:44:57.040 You're going to do this.

00:44:58.380 You're going to drive a car, a crash car.

00:45:01.020 I'm going to do this.

00:45:02.100 I'm going to do that.

00:45:03.240 And you're sitting in this room right here.

00:45:04.740 You're doing what you're supposed to be doing.

00:45:06.480 The attention's got to be around you.

00:45:07.900 So we can kill him.

00:45:09.120 Now a guy comes.

00:45:09.860 He gets up from there and walks over to get a glass of water or something.

00:45:14.080 But instead of getting a glass of water, he shoots him in the head.

00:45:16.240 He blows his brains out.

00:45:17.320 You're sitting right here.

00:45:18.380 You don't think this guy's got balls.

00:45:20.360 You know what I mean?

00:45:21.820 You take away anything from him.

00:45:23.440 He's part of the hit.

00:45:24.900 Law enforcement don't give a shit what you did.

00:45:28.360 You're part of that hit.

00:45:29.420 That's life without parole.

00:45:30.700 You're a hit guy.

00:45:32.020 But it's your function.

00:45:33.240 What are you going to be?

00:45:34.040 Now, today you might be sitting there.

00:45:37.160 Tomorrow this guy might be sitting there and you're doing the hit.

00:45:40.680 It don't matter who's pulling the trigger.

00:45:42.800 It's a matter of how does it happen?

00:45:45.720 How does it work where you're not just sloppy in the middle of the streets.

00:45:50.200 Where it's perfectly done and you get away with it.

00:45:55.660 So getting away with it 19 times if you want to.

00:46:00.420 But out of the 19, it's not necessarily that you pull the trigger.

00:46:03.340 No, no, no, no, no.

00:46:04.360 I don't even think it's important who pulls the trigger.

00:46:07.700 You don't think so?

00:46:08.580 No.

00:46:08.960 Everybody in that room who's on this hit is capable of pulling that trigger.

00:46:14.200 I don't want you to be the shooter.

00:46:16.300 Maybe I want this guy to pull the trigger.

00:46:18.320 How do you call the shots on who shoots?

00:46:20.520 How is that decision made?

00:46:21.440 On how I plan to have.

00:46:23.320 But how do you choose one person over another person?

00:46:25.740 Is it the case and how the relationship is?

00:46:28.420 I'll give you an example with a guy named D.B. who got killed.

00:46:31.720 Sure.

00:46:32.580 A quick example because I don't want to explain the whole thing.

00:46:35.780 But he's going to come in to a meeting.

00:46:38.340 So we're going to sit at a table just like me and you were saying.

00:46:41.260 Actually a little closer.

00:46:42.900 So he's going to get killed.

00:46:44.360 Now what I do is I tell the old man Joe Peruta who's with me.

00:46:47.940 Joe, get D.B. a coffee.

00:46:50.200 He walks over there, opens up the cabinet, takes a quick peek, takes out the gun with

00:46:56.740 the silencer, comes up behind you and hits you.

00:47:00.160 Boop!

00:47:00.660 I get splattered.

00:47:02.280 Do you think I'm less than Joe?

00:47:04.740 I couldn't do this?

00:47:05.960 You think this is a less position or a lesser guy?

00:47:09.740 That bullet could hit me too.

00:47:11.780 I'm sitting here.

00:47:12.580 But what makes it work?

00:47:14.700 I don't want to torture the guy.

00:47:17.040 I don't want to wrestle with the guy.

00:47:19.700 I don't even want you to suffer.

00:47:22.820 This is going to sound fucking crazy I think.

00:47:25.340 But you're going to die.

00:47:27.200 You never even knew what the fuck hit you.

00:47:29.240 D.B. died and had no reaction whatsoever.

00:47:32.120 It's like getting a massive explosion in your body or your heart stops immediately and you're

00:47:38.040 just killed over.

00:47:39.160 That's what it is.

00:47:40.380 So when I do a hit, it's clean.

00:47:43.300 And I'm immediately going to pick him up and put him in a body bag.

00:47:46.860 We're going to get rid of him so there's not stuff all over the place.

00:47:50.460 It's a whole thing.

00:47:53.180 So I'm a professional hit guy.

00:47:55.280 People would say on the street just before we got pitched practically, this fucking Samuel

00:48:01.440 Bull's got a contract on you.

00:48:02.820 You're dead.

00:48:03.820 You can't get away from this guy.

00:48:05.380 Why?

00:48:06.580 Because I had blinders on.

00:48:07.960 Like this.

00:48:10.880 The way I'm looking at you now.

00:48:12.400 I don't look at nothing.

00:48:14.120 I don't care about the people who are in this room if there was people.

00:48:17.360 I don't care about my family, my friends, my uncle, my aunt, money.

00:48:22.900 Nothing.

00:48:23.980 Just you.

00:48:24.880 It's me and you.

00:48:26.320 And I'm going to pick when you're going to die.

00:48:28.080 And it's cold and calculated.

00:48:30.860 And not that cold and calculated because you'll come in here with your wife or your kid.

00:48:35.940 You're not going to get hit.

00:48:36.960 Not with me.

00:48:38.240 You're not getting hit.

00:48:39.820 We'll get him another time.

00:48:41.580 But I'm on you like glue.

00:48:44.980 When you're making mistakes, I'm going to be the last face you see.

00:48:48.260 I'm all over you.

00:48:49.720 Why did I get picked 19 times?

00:48:52.140 By bosses.

00:48:53.060 Colombo people actually first.

00:48:55.400 Then Paul Castellano.

00:48:57.160 Then John Gotti.

00:48:58.440 Why am I being picked?

00:48:59.820 Why am I in three mafia wars?

00:49:01.900 Why are you?

00:49:02.540 I'm fucking good at it.

00:49:05.160 I'm what Tato said.

00:49:06.800 I'm a thinker.

00:49:08.020 I'm a planner.

00:49:09.320 I'm not a thug.

00:49:10.420 I'll give you another thug thing.

00:49:11.960 One time Paul Castellano in his house is sitting there and he's talking to us like,

00:49:15.700 he always did, all the heavyweights are at the table, all of them, John Gotti, Roy DeMayo,

00:49:20.860 me, everybody.

00:49:21.780 We're all sitting there.

00:49:22.780 And he says, you know, in our life, there's two kinds of guys.

00:49:26.940 There's gangsters who are thugs and there's racketeers who are more like business guys.

00:49:32.140 It's very, very rare will you find someone who is both.

00:49:37.460 It's almost impossible when you look around.

00:49:39.740 You're either a thug or you're a racketeer.

00:49:42.480 He says, we have one in our family who should be fortunate.

00:49:46.440 You could have heard a pin drop.

00:49:47.560 Everybody's head is turned looking at him.

00:49:50.820 And he said, that guy, and he was, is that Sammy the Bull?

00:49:54.880 He's a thug and a racketeer.

00:49:58.180 My fucking chest came out four inches.

00:50:00.920 My head must have blew up two or three inches.

00:50:03.540 I couldn't believe that I'm being pulled out like that.

00:50:08.760 And when we're leaving, I'm hitting guys on the back.

00:50:11.100 You fucking thug.

00:50:12.080 You're already a thug.

00:50:13.040 I'm both.

00:50:14.540 And I'm breaking chops.

00:50:16.220 I didn't even realize what it was.

00:50:19.300 And I thought, this is how my brain works.

00:50:22.620 How did I become a gangster and a racketeer?

00:50:27.560 How is that possible?

00:50:29.460 It's impossible for so many people.

00:50:32.180 How did I become that?

00:50:33.380 I got the lexic.

00:50:34.240 How the fuck did I become both?

00:50:36.780 Stone cold killer, you could call me, and a fucking great business guy who could run unions.

00:50:41.260 How did I become both?

00:50:42.560 Now it's my upbringing.

00:50:44.180 What I learned from my father, from my mother, from my family, I absorbed that.

00:50:49.340 And it never left me.

00:50:50.700 How legitimate, how honest they were.

00:50:53.080 How they never lied.

00:50:54.900 That never left me.

00:50:56.060 Mr. Mandrakia.

00:50:57.620 I'm still mentioning his name fucking 50 years ago.

00:51:01.240 Those things never left me.

00:51:02.840 When I was in a gang, we didn't kill people like they do here.

00:51:07.120 We just fought fights.

00:51:09.060 When I go into the Colombo family, beat up that guy, robbed that, hijacked that, killed this guy, do this, do that.

00:51:15.760 And now I go into the Gambino family, I'm sitting with Tato, and I'm learning about business, unions, all kinds of things.

00:51:23.800 And I always played around with construction.

00:51:26.780 And I was in businesses.

00:51:28.140 They didn't work, a few of them.

00:51:29.940 Had a fruit and vegetable store, didn't work.

00:51:32.320 But every time my business didn't work, I don't even, never thought I failed in business.

00:51:39.260 I just looked at the business and said, what did I do wrong that other people could have businesses and succeed?

00:51:47.720 What did I do wrong to not succeed?

00:51:50.540 So even when I failed, I won.

00:51:53.440 I knew why I failed.

00:51:55.440 And it would help me down the road.

00:51:57.540 I knew that.

00:51:58.500 That's what made me both.

00:52:00.660 All of those things.

00:52:03.280 That's the highest level of compliment somebody like him can give you.

00:52:07.760 I think in front of 20 different guys, all captains and everything.

00:52:11.640 I mean, that's about as high.

00:52:13.520 And I wasn't a captain.

00:52:14.580 I was an acting captain.

00:52:15.380 Now, how's your relationship at that time?

00:52:16.960 How are you and Gotti doing together coming up?

00:52:20.100 We're doing fine.

00:52:21.040 I don't really know Gotti.

00:52:22.520 I know of him.

00:52:23.600 I think I was made in 1976.

00:52:26.460 I think he was made in 77.

00:52:28.780 So he was made after me.

00:52:30.960 Gotti was made after you?

00:52:32.120 Yes.

00:52:32.880 Interesting.

00:52:33.640 Yeah.

00:52:34.040 So they kept it open for how long did they keep it open for?

00:52:36.360 Oh, it's open for years.

00:52:37.680 It's never really closed.

00:52:38.900 Got it.

00:52:39.660 So why did they close in the first place for 19 years or 18 years?

00:52:43.800 It was more than that.

00:52:44.480 It was from 1955 or something like that.

00:52:46.840 From 1957 to 1975.

00:52:49.820 They closed it because some people were charging money to get made.

00:52:54.360 Well, some people were putting their sons in there who didn't really belong.

00:52:59.180 I guess they got so frustrated with it, they closed it.

00:53:02.680 And it didn't open no more.

00:53:03.720 Got it.

00:53:04.580 So you're in 76.

00:53:06.100 He's in 77.

00:53:07.320 And then how does that relationship get started?

00:53:10.240 Frankie DiCicco, I was very close with all my life.

00:53:13.540 Every time he was a full-blown captain, I was made and I was an acting captain.

00:53:18.160 And Tato made me his acting captain almost immediately, a year later.

00:53:23.280 I would always patronize places that he would open.

00:53:26.360 An after-hour club, a crap game, and there's a gambling.

00:53:30.420 So I would always go and patronize.

00:53:32.240 So I was there and his father, Frankie DiCicco's father's name was Boozy, was a made guy.

00:53:37.860 He was under Tato.

00:53:39.100 So was I now.

00:53:40.340 So I was standing at the bar with Boozy, Frankie DiCicco's father.

00:53:43.860 And the door opened and John Gotti and a few guys walked in his little entourage.

00:53:50.580 So he says, do you know this kid, John Gotti?

00:53:53.700 I said, no.

00:53:54.920 I heard of him.

00:53:56.540 Matter of fact, he helped a friend of mine who was in jail.

00:54:00.180 And he did it in a movie.

00:54:01.620 He had a problem with black people and they were going to hurt him.

00:54:04.260 He heard that the kid was friendly with me.

00:54:07.020 He intervened and straightened the whole thing out.

00:54:10.160 So, and I was telling Boozy, he did something like that.

00:54:12.140 I heard, and he says, yeah, there's a lot of good things with him.

00:54:15.960 He's going to be like us eventually.

00:54:18.960 But I know he's not a friend, but he's going to be.

00:54:21.380 And when I say friend, I mean the main guy.

00:54:23.280 When I'm talking to a main guy.

00:54:24.940 He came over to Boozy, knew Boozy.

00:54:27.480 Hey, Boozy, how you doing?

00:54:29.580 Are you Sammy?

00:54:30.500 Sammy, yeah, yeah.

00:54:31.640 I met him.

00:54:33.020 And he says, oh, Sammy, I hear a lot of great things.

00:54:35.140 And he told me about my friend that he helped.

00:54:36.980 I said, I heard about that.

00:54:38.600 I appreciate it.

00:54:39.720 I said, give John a drink.

00:54:40.800 I said, I hear a lot of good things about you too, Bo.

00:54:43.500 That's when we met.

00:54:44.700 A little while later, he went in the back where there was a crap game.

00:54:48.140 John was a degenerate gambler.

00:54:49.560 So he went in the back.

00:54:50.860 And I stood at the bar with Boozy.

00:54:52.800 That's when I met him, in 1977.

00:54:55.560 I didn't grow up with John.

00:54:57.200 And he comes from that neighborhood.

00:54:59.260 They have me that we don't, we have a long relationship.

00:55:03.000 We don't.

00:55:03.300 I'm on a whole other end.

00:55:05.200 I'm Bensonhurst, Brooklyn.

00:55:07.020 Bay Ridge, Bensonhurst.

00:55:08.680 You know, I'm in that area.

00:55:10.220 He's in Queens, almost towards Long Island.

00:55:13.580 It's not my neighborhood.

00:55:14.840 But I did hear about him.

00:55:16.180 I knew he was in the family.

00:55:18.080 But I didn't know, I knew he wasn't made.

00:55:20.400 You know, then he went to the camp for a while.

00:55:21.980 Was he overly ambitious on why he eventually became the boss?

00:55:25.620 Or was it something where everybody around said,

00:55:28.800 no, this is the guy that's got to be the boss eventually,

00:55:31.440 after, you know, taking out Paul Castellano?

00:55:34.320 Read my book coming out.

00:55:36.540 Or listen to the podcast.

00:55:37.820 It's too long of a story.

00:55:39.140 Give me the shorter version of it.

00:55:40.620 I don't, give me a glimpse of it.

00:55:42.700 Say it again.

00:55:44.160 Was John Gotti, was he overly ambitious where,

00:55:48.760 like, you know, Frank Collada tells me

00:55:51.240 when he first met Tony Spallatra,

00:55:52.640 he knew eventually Spallatra wanted to be a boss.

00:55:54.800 Like, he said it since he was a kid.

00:55:56.260 It was an inspiration to him.

00:55:57.860 Was Gotti so ambitious where he wanted to be a boss eventually?

00:56:00.920 Or was it something where people voted and said,

00:56:02.800 he has what it takes to be a boss?

00:56:04.560 Oh, no, no, no.

00:56:05.500 He, listen, he wasn't,

00:56:07.580 he didn't have what it takes to be a boss.

00:56:10.120 We made him a boss.

00:56:11.360 But Paul fucked up.

00:56:12.920 He made a lot, a lot of mistakes.

00:56:14.760 I thought the world of him in the beginning.

00:56:17.100 He lost my love through a series of events.

00:56:20.320 And he lost the respect that Frankie had for him.

00:56:23.440 Paul had made a ton of mistakes prior.

00:56:26.120 And there was rumbling,

00:56:27.380 rumbling and growling by us, the troops, whatever.

00:56:31.380 A lot of things.

00:56:32.720 He changed from what he was in the beginning.

00:56:35.220 He got more greedy.

00:56:36.960 He had so much fucking money.

00:56:38.600 It was, how could you be that?

00:56:39.960 How could you be greedy?

00:56:41.260 He's got so much fucking money.

00:56:42.540 It's incredible.

00:56:43.760 He just made one bad move after the other.

00:56:45.980 He was fucking around with his mate.

00:56:48.220 And this is not something we do.

00:56:50.380 You know, we go out as men, which we're around.

00:56:52.440 We're a bunch of dogs.

00:56:53.820 We're in heat all the time.

00:56:55.560 We got testosterone popping out of our fucking church.

00:56:59.100 But me and Frankie are in his house talking with him.

00:57:01.860 And he's talking about Gloria, his mate,

00:57:04.520 was questioned by the FBI on the street.

00:57:07.160 She's got a Colombian accent.

00:57:08.980 He's so good looking, that agent.

00:57:11.740 So Paul's upset about it.

00:57:13.600 Jerkoff over here turns around and I go like this.

00:57:17.280 I said, Paul, do you want me to take care of this problem?

00:57:20.440 He looks at me and he says, what?

00:57:23.080 And now I get a swift kick under my leg.

00:57:25.320 Frankie kicked me.

00:57:26.160 What the fuck did Frankie kick me for?

00:57:28.220 What am I doing wrong?

00:57:29.420 Then he says, say that again.

00:57:32.480 And the veins in his neck, now I dealt with him.

00:57:35.380 I got his veins out of his neck a few times.

00:57:37.280 But those veins are sticking out of his neck.

00:57:39.820 And he said, what the fuck did you say?

00:57:42.920 Paul, maybe I think I lost my mind right now.

00:57:45.560 I says, I don't know what I said.

00:57:47.220 I said, if you need me, am I saying something wrong?

00:57:52.200 I get another kick.

00:57:54.340 I says, oh my God.

00:57:55.520 It goes away.

00:57:56.960 It's over.

00:57:57.720 We walk out of the house.

00:57:59.280 Frankie gets on.

00:57:59.940 One day he grabs me because we know where the cameras are.

00:58:02.300 We know he can't see us, so that's the way of hugging.

00:58:04.360 He's hugging me.

00:58:05.100 He says, you are so fucking nuts.

00:58:07.680 I said, what the fuck are you talking about?

00:58:11.580 What's the matter?

00:58:12.940 He said he loves this fucking broad.

00:58:15.060 It'll kill me and you for her.

00:58:17.080 The fifth Cadillac in the garage is a big fucking garage.

00:58:20.600 It's glorious.

00:58:22.160 And Gloria dictates to his wife.

00:58:25.060 Now, no.

00:58:27.020 Sammy, did you see what reaction he got?

00:58:30.260 You didn't do nothing.

00:58:31.220 You did a normal thing, but didn't you just see the reaction?

00:58:35.000 He was fuming when you did that.

00:58:36.800 He's doing that to his wife.

00:58:39.020 Now, he might have been fuming at me, but I lost a lot of respect for him.

00:58:43.820 Of course, I told Frankie, he's got a gazillion dollars.

00:58:47.400 He can get the most beautiful girl on the planet, buy her a fucking house, buy her a Cadillac,

00:58:53.400 make all the payments, go there every once in a while, do your little bullshit thing and

00:58:57.540 go home.

00:58:57.900 What are you, she's fucking two feet.

00:59:00.160 Well, she's bigger than two feet, but two feet, fat and ugly.

00:59:04.000 Besides, what the fuck?

00:59:05.740 And you expose your wife and kids and everybody like that in the house?

00:59:09.220 Who knew the story behind it?

00:59:11.100 Well, they knew.

00:59:12.000 Obviously, other people knew.

00:59:13.520 I didn't know it.

00:59:14.880 I'll give you an example of Gozanostra.

00:59:17.420 That's crazy.

00:59:18.700 Tato, who's my mentor, who talks to me and teaches me about Gozanostra, a different way

00:59:24.500 than the Columbo's, he says, one day, I'm in the restaurant, and it's a neighborhood

00:59:29.900 restaurant, and he says, I'm sitting with my gumata.

00:59:32.960 A gumata is his girlfriend.

00:59:34.940 You got your wife and your gumata, your girlfriend.

00:59:38.120 You're treating her almost like a wife.

00:59:39.440 You see it in movies all the time.

00:59:41.800 He says, and the door opens up, and Carlo Gambino and four or five guys walk in.

00:59:46.400 They go to the other side, and they sit at a table.

00:59:48.540 Back then, you don't even reckon, you don't wave, hey, Carl, you don't do nothing like that.

00:59:53.380 You don't even send a drink.

00:59:55.820 You don't do nothing.

00:59:57.460 You just look at him.

00:59:59.740 You may have tilted your head like you just did, tilt your head a little bit, or look eye

01:00:04.760 to eye.

01:00:05.660 That's us saying hello to each other.

01:00:07.460 You don't, this is a secret society and a brotherhood.

01:00:10.860 Forget Gotti.

01:00:11.840 This was back then.

01:00:13.320 It's a secret society.

01:00:14.600 He may look back and give you a little head shake.

01:00:17.160 He's acknowledged you.

01:00:18.120 Now, there's a guy sitting there, there's five of them.

01:00:20.920 One guy gets up, and he walks over to Tato.

01:00:25.720 Hey, Tato, how you doing?

01:00:28.000 There's an empty chair right next to Carl.

01:00:30.840 He says, go sit in the chair over there, an empty chair for a minute.

01:00:34.660 What's your girl's name?

01:00:36.120 Rosie?

01:00:36.740 Hey, Rosie.

01:00:37.840 My name is, how you doing?

01:00:40.680 And he gets into a bullshit conversation to keep her occupied.

01:00:44.580 He goes over, and he says, well, Carl.

01:00:46.320 Carlo Gambino tells him, according to Tato, how you doing, Tato?

01:00:49.700 Oh, good, good, Carl.

01:00:51.520 How are you doing?

01:00:52.600 I'm doing pretty good.

01:00:54.020 That woman over there at Chigumana?

01:00:55.800 Yeah.

01:00:56.320 What's her name?

01:00:57.600 Rosie.

01:00:58.340 She's a beautiful girl.

01:00:59.900 She really is a beautiful girl.

01:01:01.760 They say, you come to this restaurant all the time, right?

01:01:04.040 Yeah.

01:01:04.700 You come here with your wife once in a while, too, no?

01:01:08.200 Yeah.

01:01:09.440 Let me ask you something.

01:01:10.780 What do you think these people think when they see you now at Chigumana?

01:01:15.060 Oh, they don't think nothing.

01:01:17.060 They ain't never going to say nothing.

01:01:18.560 No, no.

01:01:19.020 Of course, they're not going to say nothing.

01:01:20.920 They're afraid of you.

01:01:22.660 They're not going to say nothing.

01:01:24.300 I don't mean to you or to me.

01:01:27.320 What do you think they say to each other?

01:01:29.220 What do you think they say when your wife comes in?

01:01:32.020 Tato's girlfriend is so much prettier than his wife.

01:01:34.980 Look at the difference in the bonnies, how gorgeous that one is.

01:01:37.960 You don't think they're going to talk like that?

01:01:39.200 They're human beings.

01:01:40.640 They're not going to say nothing.

01:01:41.420 I agree with you, but I didn't look at it that way.

01:01:43.820 Oh, all right.

01:01:45.000 But it's pretty obvious.

01:01:46.180 So let me ask you a question, Tato.

01:01:48.120 Do you love your wife?

01:01:49.500 Of course.

01:01:50.100 Of course, boy.

01:01:50.840 I do love my wife.

01:01:52.200 Let me ask you something, Tato.

01:01:53.860 Do you love me?

01:01:55.540 Of course, Carl.

01:01:56.300 Of course I love you.

01:01:57.860 I hope you don't love me like you love your wife.

01:02:00.820 Go ahead.

01:02:01.120 Go sit with your good mother.

01:02:02.420 Now, maybe a lot of people who hear this won't even understand what the fuck this is.

01:02:07.100 This is Gozunostra to the core.

01:02:09.080 This is true, Gozunostra.

01:02:12.020 How do you think I felt knowing Paul is doing this with the maid?

01:02:16.380 It might be funny to people.

01:02:17.900 He's maid in the house in front of his wife and kids and things.

01:02:21.180 Well, I mean, of course, he's not hugging her and kissing her, leaving that thing right

01:02:24.860 in the house.

01:02:25.360 So when I look at it, when you get maid and you're a maid guy, we're brothers.

01:02:30.540 Your wife is my sister-in-law.

01:02:32.720 Your kids are my nieces and nephews.

01:02:36.320 I'm in the bar.

01:02:37.180 I see your daughter, God forbid.

01:02:39.060 And she's acting a little stupid for a girl.

01:02:44.000 Come over here.

01:02:46.940 Don't give her no more drinks.

01:02:48.720 Go home.

01:02:49.640 Get the hell out of here.

01:02:50.700 The guy looks, you, get out of here.

01:02:54.260 Go home.

01:02:55.340 You're not behaving nice.

01:02:57.200 I'm your father's friend.

01:02:58.020 Go home.

01:02:58.840 We do that.

01:03:00.240 We care about your wife and your kids.

01:03:03.780 He is the father of the family.

01:03:06.100 So he's my father.

01:03:07.400 He made me.

01:03:08.700 She would take my son, Gerard.

01:03:11.000 Oh, little Gerard, come over.

01:03:12.960 When I would go with my kid, put him on the thing, sit down, give him milk and cookies.

01:03:18.900 She literally was like my grandmother.

01:03:21.040 She was a lot older than me.

01:03:22.020 But she was my mother, according to Gozenostra.

01:03:24.960 How the fuck could you do?

01:03:26.200 This is funny when you don't know.

01:03:27.740 But picture now your father, your father, not Paul, doing this to your mother.

01:03:33.740 How would you feel?

01:03:35.020 That's the way I'm supposed to feel.

01:03:37.700 This is my father.

01:03:39.060 This is my mother.

01:03:40.420 Dad.

01:03:41.160 What the fuck are you doing, bro?

01:03:43.380 I like to fuck just like you, but in the house like this, bro?

01:03:48.180 Mommy looks like a fucking rag, and other people know about it, too.

01:03:51.680 She looks like a fool to the world.

01:03:53.680 Is that what you think of her?

01:03:55.620 That's Gozenostra.

01:03:56.680 People don't hear that.

01:03:58.260 People don't know it.

01:03:59.220 People think when you watch all these movies that we go out and we shoot people and we fucking

01:04:05.380 drink and party.

01:04:08.140 That's all we do.

01:04:09.240 We're not human.

01:04:10.220 That's all we do.

01:04:11.320 And it seems like we always talk about the worst.

01:04:14.520 You want to talk about the worst of me, the 19 murders.

01:04:17.640 You want to talk about the worst.

01:04:18.680 You don't want to talk how I feel with that.

01:04:21.480 How I felt maybe on some of those murders tore me the fuck apart.

01:04:25.840 I went to a funeral that I did.

01:04:28.840 I caused.

01:04:29.860 But I didn't cause it.

01:04:31.080 He caused it.

01:04:32.580 So when I went to the funeral of the box and I didn't sign it across, of course, I said

01:04:37.400 it to myself.

01:04:38.520 Look what the fuck you did.

01:04:40.160 You knew I would be shooting you.

01:04:42.500 That's our life.

01:04:44.320 But you broke these fucking rules.

01:04:46.140 You knew you would die.

01:04:47.640 Whether it's me or Tommy or Lenny, you knew this would happen.

01:04:52.200 It was me.

01:04:53.040 I killed you.

01:04:53.860 But look what the fuck you did.

01:04:56.020 Look over my shoulder.

01:04:57.720 Look at your family.

01:04:59.440 You did this.

01:05:00.620 You gave me this fucking scar in my heart, you fuck.

01:05:03.840 I loved you like a brother.

01:05:06.100 You forced this.

01:05:07.780 And if I don't do it, I'd die.

01:05:09.080 And you'd die anyway.

01:05:10.440 That's our rules.

01:05:11.380 That's the life.

01:05:12.280 That's Cousin Austria.

01:05:13.440 But people don't ever talk about that or think about that, I don't think.

01:05:17.300 I didn't see this in movies.

01:05:18.740 Maybe if I do a scripted show, it'll be in my scripted show.

01:05:22.560 Maybe if I talk on my podcast or my book, things will happen and come out.

01:05:26.900 And I don't even do this podcast, book, interviews, or whatever.

01:05:30.560 I'm not even doing this for greed or money.

01:05:33.580 I'm 74 pushing 75.

01:05:35.640 I got fucking 22 years in prisons.

01:05:38.600 All this fucking baggage.

01:05:40.060 I don't give a fuck.

01:05:41.380 Of course I want money.

01:05:43.660 Not for anything anymore.

01:05:45.220 My life is damn near over.

01:05:47.680 I want to take care of my ex-wife, my son, my daughter.

01:05:51.720 I'd like to help them before I go.

01:05:54.700 And some people who stayed loyal to me throughout this miserable experience.

01:06:00.980 Those are my motives.

01:06:02.520 Those are clear my motives.

01:06:03.580 You still trust people?

01:06:05.240 Of course.

01:06:06.640 Of course.

01:06:07.920 I trust you.

01:06:08.840 I already thought.

01:06:10.160 You think I don't think.

01:06:11.020 I think about every fucking thing.

01:06:13.180 You think I would sit in here with you and these other people with the lights dim if I didn't think about you or trust you?

01:06:21.160 I trust you.

01:06:22.500 I think you're a gentleman.

01:06:24.220 I looked at some of your past things.

01:06:25.900 I listened to some of the tapes you were on.

01:06:28.060 I make decisions before I move.

01:06:30.260 I'm not Ali Boy.

01:06:31.020 I'm Sammy the Bull.

01:06:32.240 I'm a hit guy still.

01:06:33.520 I think like it.

01:06:34.540 Sometimes my wife, she don't call me a hit guy, but she says, Sammy, every fucking thing you do, you think like a fucking gangster.

01:06:41.800 Personal things that come up.

01:06:44.100 I said, what do you want me to be?

01:06:45.740 You want me to be gay tomorrow?

01:06:46.920 What do you want me to be?

01:06:48.000 I'm a gangster.

01:06:48.560 And that's the way I think.

01:06:50.040 I was brought up my whole fucking life.

01:06:52.120 So I think of every fucking thing.

01:06:54.500 I analyze everything that's said or done or anybody I do business with.

01:06:58.640 And there's people who do business with me now who are as legitimate as it comes.

01:07:04.100 The guy from Mosaic.

01:07:06.360 Them and their wives and people talk to me.

01:07:09.600 My whole neighborhood talks to me.

01:07:11.560 Loves me.

01:07:12.160 They blow horns.

01:07:12.980 They come over.

01:07:13.620 A woman rang my fucking bell because I was home alone.

01:07:17.420 And she came in with a pot of fucking stew.

01:07:20.600 I said, what's that for?

01:07:21.600 She says, I know you were home alone for days.

01:07:24.920 I just want you to eat.

01:07:27.140 She's giving me food to eat.

01:07:28.560 And I get along all over the place with everybody, just about.

01:07:31.440 I was going to say I'm not a drunk.

01:07:32.760 I don't drink.

01:07:34.040 I don't take drugs.

01:07:36.320 I don't gamble.

01:07:37.760 John got mad that I don't gamble.

01:07:39.620 Who, what gangster don't gamble?

01:07:41.340 I'm this gangster.

01:07:42.080 What were the biggest differences between you and Gotti, personality-wise?

01:07:45.400 Every difference you could possibly have.

01:07:48.360 I walked around with a fucking sweatshirt.

01:07:51.540 I abided by goes in Austria.

01:07:53.380 I didn't want to be noticed and saw and go around with a $3,000 Brioni suit and a hand-painted tie and telling everybody,

01:08:03.540 I'm Sammy the Bull, one of the biggest gangsters in the world.

01:08:06.780 That's what he did.

01:08:07.560 I'm John Gotti.

01:08:08.420 I'm one of the biggest gangsters in the world.

01:08:10.320 I'll never forget.

01:08:11.200 We were in a club one night and one of the, John, John had two bodyguards.

01:08:15.040 Bobby Boriello and another guy.

01:08:16.680 And Bobby Boriello whispers in my ear and says, Sammy, there's two people at the other end of the bar and they're watching you guys real close.

01:08:27.100 Do you want me to go and rouse them up and see what's going on?

01:08:30.120 I said, no, no, no, hold up.

01:08:31.820 I said, John, Bobby noticed there's two people at the other end of the bar.

01:08:35.340 On the other end, all the way at the end.

01:08:36.740 Don't look now.

01:08:37.960 And they're looking at us.

01:08:40.060 Bobby wants to know, should he go over there and, you know, push it around a little bit?

01:08:44.580 Check it out?

01:08:45.700 Sammy, no.

01:08:46.620 Oh, I saw that they were looking.

01:08:50.060 That's our public.

01:08:51.180 That statement hit me like a ton of bricks.

01:08:53.440 Our public.

01:08:54.060 Now, I didn't say this, but my mind said, we're gangsters.

01:08:59.360 We are under the radar.

01:09:00.500 We don't exist.

01:09:01.440 We're a secret society and a brotherhood.

01:09:03.580 What fucking public?

01:09:05.400 We're not actors.

01:09:06.600 We're not married to actresses.

01:09:09.040 We're public.

01:09:09.820 What the fuck are you talking about?

01:09:11.240 We don't exist to the public.

01:09:12.860 He's proud of it.

01:09:13.820 He called them over.

01:09:14.900 Gave an autograph.

01:09:15.920 I think I'm rubbing my head.

01:09:18.320 I said, what the fuck?

01:09:19.480 This ain't even real.

01:09:20.760 So what differences?

01:09:22.300 I never did that.

01:09:23.260 I was with him.

01:09:24.580 I was dressed.

01:09:25.280 We came from somewhere.

01:09:26.880 But I never did that.

01:09:28.100 Even now, I don't do it.

01:09:29.400 I don't brag about it.

01:09:31.180 See, I spent 22 years in prisons.

01:09:33.980 A good part of it is after I cooperated.

01:09:36.820 You go in prison and after you cooperate, it's a tough place to do time.

01:09:40.380 I got along with everybody.

01:09:41.880 Blacks, white, Hispanic, Asian-American.

01:09:45.760 There even, though there's not that many Asians, but different gangs.

01:09:49.980 ABs are familiar.

01:09:51.360 Mexican gangs, and I didn't get killed.

01:09:54.580 I didn't even get into that many battles.

01:09:56.860 John went in.

01:09:58.240 All his racist bullshit, he got hit.

01:10:00.540 He got beat to a pulp by a black guy.

01:10:02.420 Then he tried to pay the ABs to get even.

01:10:05.000 I didn't have to pay nobody.

01:10:06.140 I walked around.

01:10:07.760 I had an argument with a guy on the phone.

01:10:11.740 He was a moose.

01:10:14.320 So when I first get into that unit, this big unit, and I said, this is an MCC.

01:10:20.980 I said, what phone is ours that we use?

01:10:24.940 Or the phone over there on that wall?

01:10:27.400 How come he's on the phone?

01:10:29.140 No, each tier has a phone.

01:10:31.020 He's not on our tier.

01:10:31.980 Is he on our tier?

01:10:32.800 No.

01:10:33.480 But he takes the phone.

01:10:34.700 What do you mean he takes the phone?

01:10:35.920 Don't he have a phone?

01:10:37.200 Yeah, but he takes that one too.

01:10:38.760 Takes whatever phone he wants.

01:10:40.260 Takes whatever phone he wants.

01:10:41.980 Yeah.

01:10:42.660 So how long do we have to wait to make a phone call?

01:10:45.280 When he gets off?

01:10:46.660 No, I'm not waiting until he gets off.

01:10:48.580 And I walk over.

01:10:50.040 And I tap him on his shoulder.

01:10:51.300 Bro, you're on my phone.

01:10:53.940 I got to make a phone call.

01:10:55.280 You want to hang up?

01:10:56.820 He said, get the fuck out of here.

01:10:58.140 I'll break your fucking face.

01:10:59.840 All right.

01:11:00.440 But get off the phone anyway.

01:11:02.480 I want to make the call.

01:11:03.400 Then you can break my face.

01:11:04.340 You can do whatever you want.

01:11:05.460 Hold on.

01:11:06.200 Listen, I'll call you back.

01:11:07.400 That's some fucking maniac.

01:11:09.260 You ain't going to use the phone.

01:11:10.720 Oh, I'm going to use the phone.

01:11:12.720 I'm going to tell you what happens now.

01:11:14.500 I'm squared up.

01:11:15.460 I'm ready to go.

01:11:16.480 I said, I'm going to tell you what happened.

01:11:17.600 Me and you are going to fight.

01:11:18.700 Maybe you're going to break my ass.

01:11:20.360 More than likely, the way you look, more than likely you will.

01:11:24.280 Don't ever go to sleep.

01:11:25.300 You better kill me.

01:11:26.580 Don't go to sleep.

01:11:28.020 When you sleep, I'll kill you.

01:11:30.080 I'll give you that promise, you motherfucker.

01:11:32.200 Who's this fucking maniac?

01:11:34.060 That's Sammy the Bull.

01:11:35.280 I could give you the...

01:11:36.200 No, no, you can't give me nothing.

01:11:38.560 You can give me a beating if you want right now.

01:11:40.560 You can't even use this fucking phone no more unless you ask my permission.

01:11:46.040 If none of us on my tier is using it, I don't give a fuck using it.

01:11:50.820 I stood my ground, but I didn't play games like John, racist shit.

01:11:54.540 I didn't do that.

01:11:55.140 And I didn't even say the guy was a black guy, but he was.

01:11:58.600 Because it's not a racial thing with me.

01:12:00.860 I don't give a fuck what he was.

01:12:02.620 I want my phone.

01:12:03.600 But I didn't play that game in prison.

01:12:05.400 They knew I stood my ground.

01:12:07.640 Small as I am and as old as I started getting.

01:12:10.620 And I didn't fuck with nobody.

01:12:13.420 I didn't play any racial games.

01:12:15.260 I didn't do anything.

01:12:16.240 And people knew that more than likely, if we're going to do something, let's kill him.

01:12:21.920 Because he's not going to just ignore it or walk away or accept the beating.

01:12:27.520 He's not going to do that.

01:12:28.360 He's going to come back.

01:12:29.320 And that's what I did all my life.

01:12:30.880 And in prisons.

01:12:31.400 The part earlier when he was talking about you and Gotti are speaking.

01:12:36.360 And he told you, you're going to take it.

01:12:38.860 I'm going to get out because I'm the boss.

01:12:40.400 They need me.

01:12:41.060 You do the time.

01:12:42.520 And you walked away.

01:12:43.700 What is the process from there to Frank coming up to you saying he's extremely paranoid in prison.

01:12:49.260 He's out of control with the words of what he's saying.

01:12:52.780 Sammy, we got to go.

01:12:55.460 If we get out of this and we leave, we got to take him out.

01:12:59.700 You're the boss.

01:13:00.860 That's way before.

01:13:01.860 That's before.

01:13:02.840 That's before your conversation with him.

01:13:04.880 So the question I have for you is the following.

01:13:06.720 That's at the end.

01:13:07.820 I did 11 months with him.

01:13:09.320 When that conversation happened, I'm already in prison 11 months with him in MCC.

01:13:15.000 So all them things, stories like that.

01:13:17.480 Pre.

01:13:18.420 Pre.

01:13:18.540 Leading up to this.

01:13:20.040 And I still was there.

01:13:21.500 This conversation.

01:13:23.320 I got 22 years in prisons.

01:13:25.480 This is the worst 11 months I did in all my prisons.

01:13:28.840 And I did rotten fucking time in some hell holes.

01:13:33.140 Because you were locked down.

01:13:34.820 The 11 months when he was in was the worst.

01:13:36.860 Why is that?

01:13:38.000 It was just, it was torture.

01:13:40.240 He didn't want to go in.

01:13:41.240 He did not want to go in jail.

01:13:43.280 And he was fucking weird.

01:13:45.440 I'll give you another story.

01:13:46.220 It's in books.

01:13:46.780 I can tell you this.

01:13:47.760 When we first get in, a little time has passed.

01:13:50.260 I get a visit.

01:13:53.480 My wife grabs my hand.

01:13:55.620 And she's saying, Sammy, you're in so much trouble.

01:13:57.820 And she's rubbing my hand.

01:13:58.860 She feels sorry for me, I guess.

01:14:01.480 So she's rubbing my hand.

01:14:02.760 You're in so much trouble.

01:14:03.780 I read the papers.

01:14:04.860 I said, baby, no, no, no.

01:14:05.960 Fuck the papers.

01:14:06.740 Don't worry about the papers.

01:14:08.540 They bullshit a lot.

01:14:10.360 Frankie LeCasio, we're on a visit.

01:14:12.860 Him too.

01:14:14.000 John too.

01:14:15.040 Frankie LeCasio taps me on the shoulder.

01:14:17.340 I said, what is it, bro?

01:14:18.160 And I lean over so he could say something to my ear.

01:14:21.040 I don't know what he's going to say.

01:14:22.240 He tells me, tell your wife to stop rubbing your hand.

01:14:25.760 What'd you say?

01:14:26.820 Tell your wife to stop rubbing your hand.

01:14:28.980 Frankie, what the fuck are you talking about?

01:14:31.500 I don't even actually realize she's rubbing my hand.

01:14:33.760 Now I'm looking at her.

01:14:34.840 She's rubbing my hand.

01:14:36.820 And he points, not with his finger, but with his head.

01:14:39.680 He nods to John.

01:14:42.000 So I look up to John.

01:14:43.120 John has his hands crossed his chest with a smirk and a nod.

01:14:48.460 I said, what the fuck is this?

01:14:50.760 I turned around to my wife.

01:14:52.080 I said, babe, stop rubbing my hand.

01:14:54.860 Why?

01:14:55.460 Because if the guards see it, they might take it as a contact visit,

01:14:58.680 and they stop the visit.

01:15:00.080 Because you're not supposed to have a contact visit.

01:15:02.440 They may take that.

01:15:03.720 She stopped.

01:15:04.380 The visit is over.

01:15:06.340 We go.

01:15:07.180 All three of us.

01:15:07.960 The visitors are gone.

01:15:09.960 I'm standing in the back with all of us, and we're getting out dressed nude.

01:15:13.000 So it's a strip search.

01:15:14.980 I said, John, what the fuck was that all about?

01:15:17.840 With my wife.

01:15:18.860 She said, you're the underboss.

01:15:19.980 You've got to act like an underboss.

01:15:21.680 I've got to act like an underboss.

01:15:23.280 My wife was rubbing my hand.

01:15:24.480 She wasn't giving me a handjob.

01:15:26.180 What the fuck are you talking about?

01:15:27.500 Who the fuck do you think you're talking to like that?

01:15:29.720 And maybe you're right.

01:15:30.600 And I basically bend over, look up my ass, and we start getting dressed and go back in.

01:15:38.380 But these things made me sick.

01:15:40.080 There's a hundred of them.

01:15:41.380 When you say in the Diane Sawyer interview, I knew if Frank came, he's going to deny that

01:15:46.520 he never said he wants to be the one that take the hit.

01:15:48.580 He wants to be the one that pulls the trigger.

01:15:50.640 But then you said you had 10, 12, 14 names that you had to take out.

01:15:53.620 The brother, the son, all these guys.

01:15:55.680 You write it on a piece of paper.

01:15:57.220 Then you crumble the paper.

01:15:59.200 You throw it away.

01:15:59.840 And you say no.

01:16:01.000 Then you went to the FBI.

01:16:02.860 How were you processing that decision in that moment?

01:16:04.940 No, it went later.

01:16:07.360 In other words, once Franky tells me that I'm processing, when we kill him, again, I don't

01:16:13.100 stop the process.

01:16:14.460 I don't just sit on my ass.

01:16:15.580 Okay, duh.

01:16:16.540 We're going to kill him when we get out.

01:16:17.820 Okay.

01:16:18.520 No.

01:16:19.220 There's a process.

01:16:20.320 And I start thinking, where are we going to kill him?

01:16:22.800 Who's going to drive him?

01:16:23.860 Where are we going to bury him?

01:16:25.260 Who do I have to kill?

01:16:27.260 His brother, son, this one, that one, Genie Gotti.

01:16:30.360 I happen to like Genie Gotti.

01:16:32.040 I think he's the best of the Gottis.

01:16:34.120 At one point, it was 14, 15 people on a piece of paper.

01:16:38.820 I ripped it up and flushed it down the bone.

01:16:41.080 I said, I'm done.

01:16:41.780 I'm not killing.

01:16:42.840 I'm not doing nothing.

01:16:43.980 Why?

01:16:44.560 I quit.

01:16:45.700 What do you mean, why?

01:16:46.460 I quit.

01:16:47.620 Here's my best fucking friend, my boss.

01:16:49.720 I did so many things for this guy.

01:16:52.600 All them trials, I rigged the trials.

01:16:56.000 I threatened people.

01:16:57.500 I fucking bribe people.

01:16:59.320 This is all fact.

01:17:00.860 And he turns on me.

01:17:02.060 You love your wife?

01:17:03.160 She's extremely loyal to you in every possible way imaginable.

01:17:08.540 Suppose she turns on you like a fucking beast tomorrow.

01:17:11.880 How would you feel?

01:17:13.180 This is how I felt.

01:17:14.100 I was betrayed by somebody who's a brother, a father.

01:17:18.440 Somebody that you gave your whole life to betrays you.

01:17:22.120 Not some fucking guy who just pointed you out of a mug book or a cop.

01:17:26.980 No, this is the closest person to you.

01:17:30.140 He survived that kind of you.

01:17:32.220 You're surviving that kind of him.

01:17:33.540 And now when the rubber meets the road, he's throwing you to the wolves.

01:17:38.920 It broke my heart.

01:17:40.440 It broke me.

01:17:41.700 Wouldn't that be a bigger reason to make the move, though?

01:17:43.900 If you think about it, what happened with Paul?

01:17:46.440 Paul broke the heart.

01:17:47.180 Well, I'll tell you how fucked up I am.

01:17:48.560 I'm a tremendous plotter.

01:17:50.140 The fuck when Frankie tells me we're going to go to a victory party?

01:17:53.960 We were dead.

01:17:54.980 We're not going to go to no victory party.

01:17:56.300 We can't beat the case.

01:17:57.840 Normal Sammy the Bull would immediately have plotted and killed him in prison.

01:18:02.660 And I'll tell you another thing.

01:18:03.700 If he died in prison, their case, I'm not even on the tapes.

01:18:07.240 So throw these tapes out.

01:18:09.880 Or you've got to produce.

01:18:12.260 Who's saying these things?

01:18:13.720 He's saying about Sammy.

01:18:15.240 He's not saying about Sammy the Bull.

01:18:17.140 He's just saying Sammy.

01:18:18.760 How do I know that's me?

01:18:20.140 There's a million Sammys out there.

01:18:22.040 Down in the fucking case, he actually talks good.

01:18:25.240 I'm going to make him the boss.

01:18:26.260 He's got to run the family if I'm gone.

01:18:28.080 I love the guy.

01:18:29.340 He's talking out of both sides of his mouth.

01:18:31.260 But a jury will never know that.

01:18:32.980 That's not me.

01:18:34.220 And there was a guy, Sammy Cash, who died not long before that.

01:18:38.280 I could have turned around and said, he's not talking about me.

01:18:41.620 He's not talking about this Sammy.

01:18:42.860 He loves this Sammy.

01:18:43.700 He's talking about Sammy Cash.

01:18:45.260 I would have had a shot.

01:18:46.580 But I wasn't looking at nothing.

01:18:49.040 I mentally broke.

01:18:51.520 The normal Sammy wouldn't have mentally broke.

01:18:53.800 He would have thought, just like I thought about coming here to talk to you.

01:18:58.140 I think about every fucking thing all the time.

01:19:00.840 That whole thing to me was, it's over.

01:19:04.820 That's why I'm asking a question.

01:19:05.900 Because your methodical way of making decisions, if you would have gone the same way you have,

01:19:12.220 that position, you would have gone a different direction with your trends.

01:19:16.160 That's the only reason I'm asking a question.

01:19:17.600 I'm not asking a question to say, it's the better decision or not the better decision.

01:19:22.360 If a person is always making a decision a certain way, all of a sudden there's a change.

01:19:26.100 Is that heart?

01:19:27.560 Is that revenge?

01:19:28.520 Is that I'm done?

01:19:30.280 Is that I'm not living this life?

01:19:31.620 That's shock.

01:19:33.240 Shock.

01:19:33.580 Everything I ever believed in, I give it up, bro.

01:19:36.560 I'm done.

01:19:37.860 Fuck the mob.

01:19:39.160 Fuck him.

01:19:40.380 I don't give a fuck if I get killed, because that's the rules.

01:19:43.860 I don't give a fuck no more.

01:19:45.760 I'm over.

01:19:46.260 It's done.

01:19:47.180 Now, normally I should have just killed him right in the fucking joint.

01:19:49.740 Fuck the time.

01:19:51.040 Add that on.

01:19:52.780 This, I'm going to get life on this one.

01:19:54.900 Add another life.

01:19:56.060 I'm in jail with two lives.

01:19:57.860 I don't give a fuck no more.

01:19:59.680 I gave up.

01:20:00.240 When you're going to say these things on the stand, my daughter or my wife could at least

01:20:05.380 say, well, he was a gangster.

01:20:07.920 He stood up and he did life.

01:20:10.620 That's him.

01:20:11.820 But I'm going to be abused by my own lawyers.

01:20:14.700 He's a fucking monster.

01:20:16.260 He's an animal.

01:20:17.980 That's what my wife and daughter and son are going to have for the rest of their life.

01:20:23.980 And he didn't even fight back.

01:20:26.380 He didn't say he fucking sat there like a fucking potted plant and let all these things be said.

01:20:32.020 So it must be true.

01:20:32.860 So I just, I just walked away.

01:20:36.560 You know, it's interesting you say that because you said once that John doesn't want anybody

01:20:42.120 to be as equal.

01:20:43.400 Right?

01:20:43.760 And I guess I was shining too much.

01:20:45.380 And when you talk to a lot of people in the world, they'll say, Sammy had more relationship

01:20:50.740 with the people in the streets because John would give the order to you.

01:20:53.760 And then as the underboss, you would go execute it.

01:20:55.680 But you were the one that was still in the streets doing business, the construction, all this

01:20:59.660 other stuff.

01:21:00.040 So you had a lot of the context.

01:21:01.500 Do you think in the back of his mind when he's by himself, he's sitting there saying,

01:21:05.740 the way I became a boss as we took out Paul, doesn't history repeat itself?

01:21:11.660 What if Sammy takes me out to become the boss?

01:21:13.860 Do you think any of that crossed his mind?

01:21:16.280 Of course it did.

01:21:17.960 Of course it did.

01:21:19.540 Here's a couple of things I'll tell you that I know for sure.

01:21:22.280 There's a guy, I think it was in the Genovese family, went to John in the club, meaning well.

01:21:27.640 He said, John, you really know how to pick him?

01:21:30.720 And John tells him, what do you mean?

01:21:32.280 He says, Sammy, it's fucking crazy.

01:21:35.440 He's controlling the whole city of New York.

01:21:38.760 You can't get a fucking job unless you get a wink and a nod from him.

01:21:43.020 Unbelievable.

01:21:44.220 Instead of saying, good, that's my man.

01:21:47.180 That's my man.

01:21:48.340 You want something done?

01:21:50.020 I'll get it done for you.

01:21:51.420 No.

01:21:52.080 It bothered the shit out of him.

01:21:53.840 I had 200 carpenters working for me in these partitions.

01:21:58.340 So my guys, I go in, we do a good fucking job.

01:22:02.720 I take away all your union bullshit.

01:22:04.420 I'm not breaking your balls.

01:22:06.980 So these people ain't stupid.

01:22:08.560 Give that job to Sammy.

01:22:09.960 Now, I could only take so much.

01:22:12.260 Then, okay.

01:22:13.540 Then give it to Patrick.

01:22:14.980 Patrick, you're going to get this job.

01:22:16.720 Good.

01:22:17.540 Give me a little something over here.

01:22:20.040 Okay.

01:22:20.740 John had fucking money coming in up the fucking wazoo.

01:22:23.680 And he's complaining about the guy disrespected him.

01:22:26.560 The fuck you talking about, bro?

01:22:27.840 Oh, yeah, yeah.

01:22:28.840 All right, Sammy.

01:22:29.380 I understand the whole thing.

01:22:30.520 I understand it now.

01:22:31.940 Leave it alone.

01:22:32.840 Okay.

01:22:33.600 That's construction.

01:22:35.280 So, job didn't have a clue.

01:22:37.380 So we go back to the guy.

01:22:38.880 You know how to pick him.

01:22:40.180 He got mad.

01:22:40.960 We're back to that story.

01:22:42.780 And another guy comes in from the Colombo family.

01:22:46.180 Captain.

01:22:46.860 Hey, John.

01:22:47.940 I went to Talley's.

01:22:49.520 Sammy's Club on 18th Avenue.

01:22:51.420 Talley's.

01:22:52.860 Yeah.

01:22:54.020 He said, I went there on a Tuesday night.

01:22:57.100 Sammy lends out money.

01:22:58.080 He's a big shower.

01:22:58.860 I had a million and a half in the street.

01:23:00.900 So, Tuesday, everybody comes and divvies up.

01:23:03.560 They make their payment.

01:23:04.820 They want to borrow 20 or 30.

01:23:07.140 I'm hooked.

01:23:08.180 Get that envelope for Patrick.

01:23:09.760 Boom.

01:23:10.020 That's 20 or 30 you're getting.

01:23:11.860 I do my business on that night.

01:23:13.800 My people are around.

01:23:15.360 Talley's is packed.

01:23:17.160 So the guy goes in.

01:23:17.940 He says, wow, I went there on fucking Tuesday.

01:23:21.200 Bro, there's fucking captives.

01:23:24.000 It was an underboss from other families.

01:23:26.620 Union bosses.

01:23:27.760 This fucking Sammy became so fucking powerful.

01:23:30.460 It's crazy.

01:23:31.400 That was intimidating to him.

01:23:33.280 Rather than saying, that's my man.

01:23:35.620 I'll put it in your lap.

01:23:37.060 You're my man.

01:23:38.120 Somebody comes to me.

01:23:40.080 Patrick set up 15 interviews.

01:23:43.260 And I'm making a ton of money with you.

01:23:45.340 That's my man.

01:23:46.260 You want an interview?

01:23:47.060 Go to him.

01:23:48.580 You want a podcast?

01:23:50.280 Go to Mosaic.

01:23:51.300 I'm sending you to my people.

01:23:52.380 Why would I get intimidated by you?

01:23:54.800 But I guess the power.

01:23:56.680 But I think it was more ego.

01:23:59.740 John had an ego like the Empire State Building.

01:24:02.020 Like me.

01:24:02.500 If you ever see me walking with him, I'm holding the umbrella while it's raining.

01:24:06.600 I'm one step behind.

01:24:08.360 I always want to put him out there.

01:24:10.440 That's your job, bro.

01:24:11.500 Not mine.

01:24:13.040 My job is being low key.

01:24:16.420 And a lot of times you won't see me in a suit.

01:24:18.780 And you had no desire ever to be a boss?

01:24:21.500 No.

01:24:22.160 You had zero inspiration.

01:24:23.200 I'm very happy being the underboss.

01:24:25.380 Believe me.

01:24:26.040 Make me the underboss of your company.

01:24:27.680 Watch how happy I am.

01:24:29.080 But I don't want to be a schmuck.

01:24:30.860 And I don't want to be rewarded for what I do.

01:24:34.120 Zero motivation to be a boss.

01:24:36.080 Zero.

01:24:36.360 I never really gave it a tremendous thought.

01:24:39.080 Got it.

01:24:39.420 Underboss to me, at that time, of the most powerful organized crime family in the country, was

01:24:44.980 way more than I ever thought.

01:24:46.460 In other words, I never thought I'd reach that height.

01:24:49.040 And I, God, he had five brothers in the mob.

01:24:51.260 I didn't have no brothers, uncles, aunts, cousins, nobody in the mob.

01:24:54.800 Because you know a lot of times, great empires that fall, it's typically internal flattery,

01:25:00.920 who gets credit, who's getting attention, who's outshining who.

01:25:04.020 How much were you having other peers coming up to you saying, hey, Sammy, look, man, amongst

01:25:10.680 us, we know who runs the family.

01:25:12.160 Hey, amongst us, we know who's.

01:25:13.620 Was there anybody playing that game in your ear or no?

01:25:16.160 There was none of that flattery taking place.

01:25:17.860 No.

01:25:18.280 The only guy who ever did that to me was Nicky Scarfo.

01:25:21.080 He was the boss of the Philadelphia family.

01:25:24.440 One day, I got home late around 9, 10 o'clock.

01:25:29.180 His nephew, Philly, and Eddie, calls me up.

01:25:31.900 Sammy, what are you doing?

01:25:33.140 Nothing.

01:25:33.420 I just got home.

01:25:34.580 Well, what's up?

01:25:35.280 He says, my uncle wants to see you.

01:25:37.540 Could you come down?

01:25:38.420 Let's go down to Atlantic City.

01:25:40.540 It's a two-hour, 10, 15-minute drive for me.

01:25:43.840 And then I got to come back.

01:25:44.880 It's like four and a half hours.

01:25:47.160 This kid, Sammy, he wants to see you.

01:25:49.540 All right.

01:25:50.340 I'm on my way.

01:25:51.460 My wife says, where are you going?

01:25:52.200 You just got in.

01:25:52.740 I got to go somewhere.

01:25:54.840 I get in the car and I go.

01:25:56.360 He wasn't allowed in casinos, but he was in the hotel part.

01:25:59.620 He was up on whatever floor.

01:26:01.060 I come in.

01:26:02.260 They take me through the casino.

01:26:03.800 I go to the elevator.

01:26:04.920 I go up there.

01:26:06.220 I go in the room.

01:26:07.620 He's in there.

01:26:08.640 Hey, Nick, how you doing?

01:26:09.920 Now, I did a lot of things with Nicky.

01:26:11.940 How you feeling, bro?

01:26:13.220 He says, good, Sammy.

01:26:14.160 Good.

01:26:14.640 And I gave him a lot of information.

01:26:15.640 I did things for him.

01:26:16.440 I helped him win the war, his war.

01:26:18.500 So we're close.

01:26:20.080 And he always comes into the family through me, whether it's in my house, somebody else's

01:26:25.480 house, my bon-law's house, somebody.

01:26:27.320 It always comes in through me.

01:26:29.360 So he says, you having any trouble with this fucking bum?

01:26:33.060 Who are you talking about?

01:26:34.180 What bum?

01:26:35.320 Who are you talking about?

01:26:36.900 John.

01:26:38.100 I said, bro, he's my boss.

01:26:40.700 He's my fucking friend.

01:26:42.700 Why do you want to talk to me like that?

01:26:45.100 Why would you say that with me?

01:26:46.580 Why would you do that?

01:26:47.700 Sammy, Sammy, calm down.

01:26:49.360 I understand.

01:26:50.220 I understand what you do.

01:26:51.700 He wanted me to come in through somebody else, through Joe Butch.

01:26:55.380 I didn't like it.

01:26:56.840 I didn't like the smell of it.

01:26:58.340 Why would he want to do it?

01:26:59.760 From day one, I came through you.

01:27:02.660 Why would he want to change that?

01:27:04.040 I don't have a fucking clue.

01:27:05.740 I don't have a clue.

01:27:06.500 Maybe he figures I'm tired.

01:27:09.120 I have no idea.

01:27:10.420 But please don't put me on the street that we're going to talk.

01:27:13.480 I wouldn't do that to you.

01:27:15.640 Don't do that with me.

01:27:16.900 All right, Sammy.

01:27:17.520 All right.

01:27:17.680 Don't take it personally.

01:27:18.880 But let me tell you one thing, bro.

01:27:20.300 Come on.

01:27:20.620 We're close.

01:27:21.160 Let me talk to you.

01:27:22.100 What?

01:27:22.700 If you have a problem, let me know.

01:27:25.940 I'm on your side, bro.

01:27:26.900 He's saying it to you.

01:27:27.940 He's saying it to me.

01:27:29.120 If you have a problem, keep your eyes open, bro.

01:27:32.280 If you have a problem, come to me.

01:27:34.160 I'm on your side.

01:27:34.880 Nicky, I'm exhausted, bro.

01:27:38.120 I thank you so fucking much.

01:27:41.080 I gave him a kiss.

01:27:42.140 I think I went to Frisia.

01:27:43.440 I think I hit him half on the fucking lip.

01:27:45.600 Boom.

01:27:45.880 I gave him a fucking kiss.

01:27:47.180 I walked out and said, I thank you so much, Nicky.

01:27:49.560 I really, really do.

01:27:51.320 It's nice.

01:27:51.880 I'm just a little cranky.

01:27:53.300 It's late.

01:27:53.860 I'm exhausted.

01:27:55.180 You want me to have somebody drive you home?

01:27:56.680 No.

01:27:56.860 I got my car.

01:27:57.780 I'll get home.

01:27:58.720 Don't worry about it.

01:27:59.900 And then I went home.

01:28:00.720 But it made me think, why is a boss of another family out of state saying this?

01:28:06.840 Now, Nicky's no fool.

01:28:07.880 And Nicky wouldn't say that to me if he doesn't feel something's right.

01:28:13.040 This was towards the end.

01:28:14.400 And I've gotten other clues with things.

01:28:17.620 But I still wouldn't go against my better judgment than to be loyal to John like a dog.

01:28:23.340 No matter what happened.

01:28:24.880 You ever get a dog and you can beat him up sometimes?

01:28:27.340 You give him a kick in his fucking ass?

01:28:29.120 Three seconds later, he's wagging his tail at you?

01:28:31.120 That's me.

01:28:31.940 I'm loyal to anybody.

01:28:33.480 Unless you fuck with me or betray me or do something crazy, then I could become your worst nightmare.

01:28:39.800 I admit it.

01:28:40.840 I could become your worst nightmare.

01:28:42.240 I want to eat you alive.

01:28:43.640 He hears these things and he's catching delusions.

01:28:47.460 And he's now trying to move guys who are coming through me, very happily coming through me, pushing them in another direction.

01:28:55.500 Why?

01:28:56.000 You mentioned a lot of businesses that you did.

01:28:58.300 And when you read about it, you got a lot of things that comes up.

01:29:00.980 I mean, construction, plumbing, the list is a long list, right?

01:29:05.120 Drywall, flooring, you name it.

01:29:07.080 How many of them were legit?

01:29:08.340 How many of them were not?

01:29:09.300 Was it a split between the two?

01:29:10.680 No, they were legit.

01:29:11.740 Okay.

01:29:12.220 They're legit to the point that they're legitimate business.

01:29:16.160 But I have control to push it in another direction.

01:29:19.660 But I have the power to do that.

01:29:24.120 Through unions, through jobs, through this, through that.

01:29:27.040 So I have that power.

01:29:28.300 And I'm bringing it to people who are around me.

01:29:32.580 People talk about how you ran businesses, whether it's the children of the deceased fathers or whatever it may be.

01:29:39.360 Based on what they say, you can agree or disagree with this.

01:29:42.920 There's a system.

01:29:43.600 So a lot of times there's investment companies where they go in and their specialty is buying businesses and they're not doing good and they build them up and then they keep and they take revenues.

01:29:54.620 Was your system the following system?

01:29:57.080 I'm curious to know what you're going to say to this.

01:29:58.420 System number one.

01:29:59.900 Step number one, find a local profitable business.

01:30:02.760 Number two, give them protection.

01:30:05.080 Number three, eliminate the owner.

01:30:07.740 Number four, take over the business.

01:30:09.860 Number five, show up to the funeral.

01:30:11.880 Would you say that was partially the system?

01:30:12.820 I never did any of those things.

01:30:14.000 No, that's ridiculous.

01:30:14.780 I'm curious to hear about it because that's been said by others.

01:30:16.820 I never killed a partner or a business associate.

01:30:20.680 I never went into a profitable company and said, give me a piece and I'm going to give you a potato.

01:30:24.880 I never did any of that.

01:30:26.120 That's in the movies.

01:30:27.120 That's not me.

01:30:27.820 The government, after I cooperated, said, how come nobody ever fucking ratted on you?

01:30:32.620 So it's the same question you're asking me in a different way.

01:30:36.040 I told them, why would they?

01:30:38.600 Don't listen to Gotti on their tapes.

01:30:40.860 Who did I hurt?

01:30:41.980 What did I do?

01:30:42.900 Everybody I did business with was extremely successful with it.

01:30:47.160 Very few of them I had even contracts.

01:30:49.520 I had verbal commitments.

01:30:50.740 I give you my word.

01:30:51.900 You give me your word.

01:30:53.080 You keep your books.

01:30:54.840 Why?

01:30:55.360 Why would I do it that way?

01:30:56.380 God forbid you drop dead.

01:30:57.840 Your kids take it.

01:30:58.580 I got nothing to do with it.

01:30:59.980 I'm not going to control your kids.

01:31:01.960 Your kids own it.

01:31:02.840 So we have no paper.

01:31:03.900 Don't even worry about shit like that.

01:31:05.820 Unless your kids have problems and want to come to me, then I'll talk to them.

01:31:10.020 But I never bullied my way into anything.

01:31:12.780 When I had the drywall company, I had over 200 carpenters working for me.

01:31:17.800 A contractor would call me up.

01:31:19.660 Sammy, I am so stuck.

01:31:21.740 I need 30 guys.

01:31:23.420 No matter who he calls, he can't get 30 guys overnight.

01:31:25.400 I would go in with Joey Madonia.

01:31:28.300 He needs 30 guys.

01:31:29.540 We could shut down this and we could pull some from here and we could...

01:31:32.960 Good.

01:31:33.560 Send him 30 carpenters tomorrow.

01:31:35.520 How am I fucking hurting anybody?

01:31:37.020 The guy got 30 carpenters.

01:31:38.540 I'll give you another little example.

01:31:40.000 I was partners with a Jewish contract, a verbal.

01:31:43.340 It's going to give me 10% of the project.

01:31:45.520 It's a small high rise, not a big, big one.

01:31:47.800 The job is what they call construction a bastard.

01:31:50.980 Everything under the sun goes wrong with it.

01:31:53.540 No matter what happens, they order nuts and bolts.

01:31:56.560 The fucking nut don't fit in the hole.

01:31:58.740 Everything is a disaster.

01:32:00.100 Every little fucking thing that could go wrong went wrong.

01:32:02.680 So he calls me up.

01:32:04.160 Samuel, we're going to take a beating here.

01:32:07.020 Really?

01:32:08.200 I mean, I know the job's a bastard, but how deep are we in the hole?

01:32:12.520 My bundle already is with me.

01:32:13.980 Made guy.

01:32:14.740 Best advisor in the world for a snake.

01:32:17.020 Snake of a human being.

01:32:18.340 But what's the story?

01:32:20.940 I'm going to go in millions in the hole.

01:32:22.960 Your end is maybe $250,000.

01:32:25.940 Now, back then, $250,000 is $250,000 is a lot of money.

01:32:30.100 Okay, let me, we'll talk, we'll see.

01:32:32.080 Let's finish up the job and see where it goes and how it goes.

01:32:35.120 My bundle-in-law, as soon as I hang up, you don't have to pay that.

01:32:38.080 Why not?

01:32:39.580 He's a Jew.

01:32:40.160 What is he going to do?

01:32:41.260 He is Jewish, and he can't really do nothing.

01:32:44.660 There's no paper, there's no nothing.

01:32:46.220 You're right about that.

01:32:47.940 But who the fuck is going to ever do business with me again after I do this to this guy?

01:32:53.760 Who's going to do business with me?

01:32:54.860 They don't do business, Sammy.

01:32:56.320 You control the union.

01:32:57.440 You'll be all right.

01:32:58.980 I paid the $250,000.

01:33:00.940 I put up my end.

01:33:02.320 Two or three months, I'm not exactly positive.

01:33:04.780 Another fucking guy calls me up, another Jewish guy.

01:33:08.080 He says, Sammy, I'm doing a project.

01:33:09.720 I heard you just got hurt over there.

01:33:12.480 Yeah, yeah, we took a beating.

01:33:14.160 The fucking job, nothing went right, no matter what.

01:33:16.760 What we did, it just went, it went bad.

01:33:19.640 He says, yeah.

01:33:20.700 I heard a number.

01:33:21.800 What'd you lose?

01:33:22.720 Well, if you heard the number, tell me.

01:33:25.260 What'd you hear I lost?

01:33:27.140 $250,000, $300,000.

01:33:28.920 Well, $250,000 is the right number.

01:33:30.200 I lost $250,000.

01:33:31.920 He says, that is so fucking honorable for a street guy.

01:33:35.340 I never met a street guy like you.

01:33:37.080 I'm going to give you a piece of my job.

01:33:38.920 I want you to protect me with unions and this and that.

01:33:41.000 And the other thing, you know, you can come in with the drywall and this and that thing.

01:33:45.260 Here's a guy in these stories that I go raping fucking people left and right, and I don't do that.

01:33:51.380 That's why nobody ever ratted it on me, except for John with his fucking big mouth.

01:33:55.640 Nobody ratted it on me.

01:33:56.520 And I'm dealing with 15 different companies.

01:33:59.240 I got unions up the wazoo.

01:34:02.000 I don't back up like when I told you how I shared the fucking money.

01:34:06.260 Everybody earned.

01:34:07.980 The union delegate, the president, the vice president, the union delegate, the shop steward.

01:34:14.400 How many people did you have control of at your peak outside of union?

01:34:17.300 I mean, jurors, judges, cops.

01:34:19.960 I mean, was it, who else was it?

01:34:22.080 I didn't have no judges or cops.

01:34:23.860 I mean, there was cops, a couple of cops working that were, but I didn't have cops and judges.

01:34:29.960 I didn't bribe people like that.

01:34:31.260 I didn't want to get involved with people like that.

01:34:32.940 What's the story of the $60,000 to a jury?

01:34:35.420 Was that a complete?

01:34:36.620 That's true.

01:34:37.300 That's true.

01:34:37.700 The $60,000 to a jury.

01:34:38.900 Yeah.

01:34:39.360 Okay.

01:34:39.960 John was on trial.

01:34:41.060 That's another thing I did for John.

01:34:42.240 Every trial he had, I even threatened jurors or paid jurors or bribed jurors.

01:34:46.960 I did everything under the sun.

01:34:48.080 The $60,000 was the head of the Westies, a guy named Bosco, comes to me and says,

01:34:55.500 Sammy, the head guy on the jury panel for John's trial, he's facing life.

01:35:02.460 I could get to him.

01:35:03.700 Really?

01:35:04.440 All right, let's get to him.

01:35:05.260 I mean, I want to talk to him.

01:35:06.280 Let's get to him.

01:35:06.900 I work out an agreement that I will give him $60,000.

01:35:11.380 $20,000 up front, $20,000 in the middle of the trial, and $20,000 at the end.

01:35:17.460 And after the trial, I'll get him a job as a teamster foreman, and he'll be making $65,000

01:35:22.380 to $75,000 in a fucking year because he was unemployed.

01:35:25.420 I'll do all those things, and he'll become our friend.

01:35:27.980 That's great.

01:35:28.540 I'll tell him.

01:35:29.020 I'll tell him a little bit more.

01:35:30.280 Well, if he reneges in any way, shape, or form, and he can go to the feds with this,

01:35:34.940 I'll kill him.

01:35:35.920 Once he takes that $20,000, he's got to be committed.

01:35:38.120 He'll be committed, Sammy.

01:35:39.600 I'll tell him myself.

01:35:40.840 I know him.

01:35:41.660 And Bosco's no joke.

01:35:43.400 He went out of the country.

01:35:45.280 He was fighting in fucking Bosnian wars.

01:35:47.400 I mean, this guy was a fucking maniac.

01:35:49.020 But we did that.

01:35:50.480 So that's what we did in that particular trial.

01:35:54.240 There's other trials.

01:35:55.080 He had a trial where there was a guy in the Carpenters Union, and he busted up a joint.

01:36:02.300 The guy who owned the place was a May guy.

01:36:05.160 John sent a few of the Westies down to give him a beating.

01:36:08.920 Instead of giving him a beating, the Irish kid, he shot him in his ass.

01:36:12.920 Guy didn't die, but he shot him.

01:36:14.420 Now, the guy was scared to death.

01:36:15.980 They were with the Genovese people.

01:36:17.780 We went to talk to them.

01:36:19.100 They didn't want nothing to do with it.

01:36:20.600 Do what you want with the guy.

01:36:21.900 We don't give a fuck.

01:36:22.580 But now, the guy was going to maybe be a witness in the case of what happened.

01:36:28.780 So I went to meet the guy.

01:36:30.300 The guy came.

01:36:31.620 How you doing?

01:36:32.340 How you doing?

01:36:33.160 Who are you?

01:36:34.200 My name is Sammy.

01:36:36.240 Maybe you heard of me.

01:36:37.160 Sammy the Bull?

01:36:37.920 Are you Sammy the Bull?

01:36:39.500 Yep.

01:36:40.340 I'm going to tell you something now.

01:36:41.940 You're going to go in, and you're going to say this had nothing to do with John.

01:36:45.720 And I give him a whole legal argument of what to do.

01:36:48.800 You have two choices.

01:36:49.720 You can go to the FBI and rat me out.

01:36:53.060 I'll do a couple of years.

01:36:54.020 I'm not worried about it.

01:36:55.720 The next guy who comes will kill you.

01:36:57.440 There's no saving you no more.

01:36:58.900 Or you can run.

01:37:00.920 Just run the fuck out of the state.

01:37:02.560 But you don't have to.

01:37:03.580 I'll always be your friend if you do this in the trial.

01:37:07.000 That's case number two.

01:37:08.540 Two.

01:37:09.260 John wants to sell me out after doing 11 months.

01:37:12.620 Those are two cases.

01:37:13.880 There's more.

01:37:14.400 How do you process fear?

01:37:16.380 So I've heard a lot of different things you say about fear.

01:37:18.440 I've heard you talking to Diane Sawyer about what does fear really mean.

01:37:23.540 You know, you're explaining from a different standpoint.

01:37:25.880 But did fear drive you?

01:37:28.080 Did you have any fear?

01:37:29.540 How did you view fear?

01:37:30.620 Fear to me is that when I was young, I mean, I was doing a robbery and I got shot and all

01:37:37.520 kinds of things.

01:37:38.760 All my life, I was in conflict of different things.

01:37:43.380 By the time I got out of the military, even when I was in the military, there's a fear

01:37:48.400 of going to Vietnam.

01:37:49.740 They were bringing on body bags left and right.

01:37:52.040 So I was surrounded with violence and this and that.

01:37:55.580 In every way you could look at it.

01:37:57.100 When I finally hook up with the mafia and I'm 23, when I went home, I said to myself,

01:38:03.320 you won't live till 40.

01:38:05.080 There's no fucking way you're going to live till 40.

01:38:07.460 You got maybe a 17 year run.

01:38:10.320 So you'll either be dead before 40 or you will be doing life in prison.

01:38:17.180 Because you got no fucking, you would do all this weird shit.

01:38:20.500 You had accepted that.

01:38:21.700 I accepted that.

01:38:23.480 And that eliminated fear.

01:38:24.860 When I'm 40 or 45 and I'm doing things, I have no fucking fear.

01:38:31.040 I'm in three mafia wars.

01:38:32.720 The first one in the Colombo family was the second part of the Gallo war.

01:38:36.520 Shorty tells me, and I'm a pup.

01:38:38.640 No, I'm nothing.

01:38:39.600 Shorty says, go home and pack your bags.

01:38:42.500 Pack my bags?

01:38:43.620 Yeah.

01:38:43.880 We're going to hit the mattresses.

01:38:45.160 Back then you didn't see movies like this.

01:38:48.120 What are you talking about?

01:38:49.160 Hit the mattresses.

01:38:49.960 He started laughing.

01:38:51.560 He says, we're going to eat, sleep and shit together 24 hours a day, seven days a week.

01:38:59.200 We're going to try and kill the Gallos and they're going to try and kill us.

01:39:02.320 You're part of us now.

01:39:03.220 I said, okay, I got a couple of loans, a couple of, I must have had two, three thousand, five

01:39:06.960 thousand out in the street, nothing.

01:39:08.460 I said, I just got to get the loans and I'll make some pickups in between.

01:39:11.820 No, don't ever talk to me about money again.

01:39:14.940 I got loans out there.

01:39:15.880 What do you mean you don't talk to me about money?

01:39:17.200 Just what I said.

01:39:18.480 This ain't about money.

01:39:19.900 Fuck the money.

01:39:20.680 You're even.

01:39:21.480 They don't have to pay me.

01:39:22.560 No, we'll give you money.

01:39:24.000 We'll feed you.

01:39:24.920 Don't worry about money.

01:39:26.560 Worry about killing.

01:39:27.820 Here's what happens, Sammy.

01:39:29.580 We're going to give you a little fact of life.

01:39:31.080 They're going to try and kill us.

01:39:33.520 There's a lot of us.

01:39:34.640 There's a pack of us.

01:39:36.120 We're a pack of wolves.

01:39:37.760 So one day, you want to go pick up your loan.

01:39:40.520 You sneak away from the pack.

01:39:42.540 They see it.

01:39:43.740 Sammy every week tries to go pick up monies.

01:39:46.540 You're going to get killed.

01:39:47.740 For sure.

01:39:48.520 You want to get laid.

01:39:49.640 For your dick, you're going to sneak away.

01:39:51.760 They'll put that together.

01:39:52.960 You're going to get killed.

01:39:54.020 You're horny.

01:39:54.500 Go jerk off and fuck money.

01:39:56.600 Forget about family.

01:39:57.460 Forget about everything.

01:39:59.200 Hit the mattresses.

01:40:00.120 I'm a young kid.

01:40:02.040 I've been in gangs, and I'm tough, and I'm this, and I'm that.

01:40:05.400 This is a whole new fucking world.

01:40:07.780 There's no way I'm going to survive all this.

01:40:09.900 This is fucking crazy altogether.

01:40:12.020 I'm in the fucking mafia war.

01:40:13.780 I'm fucking 23 years old.

01:40:15.640 This is nuts.

01:40:16.340 I'll never survive this.

01:40:17.720 So it eliminated fear.

01:40:19.260 When we were going to take out Paul, Frank and Chico when he was alive, and John, and we

01:40:25.060 were, you know, everybody knows the story.

01:40:27.760 John with the tapes, and Paul got killed, and John got, he became the boss.

01:40:32.620 But that's not the story.

01:40:33.840 What happened before?

01:40:35.080 Who was involved?

01:40:36.300 How many?

01:40:36.940 What was the problems?

01:40:38.440 Why are we going to kill Paul?

01:40:40.120 Nobody asked that question.

01:40:41.420 Nobody asked the question of, you're sitting in the car.

01:40:44.300 At 5.30 at night in Manhattan, right before Christmas, there's tens of thousands of people

01:40:49.520 coming out of these buildings all at once.

01:40:51.840 They're not going home now, hustling home.

01:40:53.920 They're waiting for their families who meet them.

01:40:56.160 They go eat.

01:40:56.860 They go see the lights.

01:40:57.860 They go shopping.

01:40:58.940 The crowds are astronomical.

01:41:01.680 Nobody asks, what were you doing?

01:41:03.200 What were you thinking in that car with John?

01:41:05.760 John was my driver, by the way.

01:41:07.760 I had the walkie talkie, I had everything.

01:41:10.060 So when we're talking about the hit, let me get back to that.

01:41:11.940 We're talking about the hit.

01:41:13.080 John says, we could do this, and we could do that.

01:41:16.040 And I says, an idea.

01:41:17.500 And he says, no, let me.

01:41:18.740 So Frank and Chico says, oh, Frank and Chico knows I was involved in two wars already with

01:41:23.880 the Columbos, and then with Nicky Scaffo in Philadelphia.

01:41:26.900 So he says, no, no, listen, Sammy's done this.

01:41:29.660 Let him plot this out.

01:41:31.080 And I plotted that hit.

01:41:32.320 I'm the guy in the car with a walkie talkie, with a gun.

01:41:35.860 I made myself a backup shooter.

01:41:37.880 So there's 11 people on there.

01:41:39.780 We're going to kill Castellano.

01:41:41.340 So there's crash car, backup shooters, the four guys who are going to shoot.

01:41:47.220 Everybody's in place.

01:41:48.540 What's my position?

01:41:49.600 A backup shooter.

01:41:50.500 I'm in the car, and I'm calling the shots.

01:41:52.760 While I'm sitting in the car, it's packed, and my eyes are all over the place.

01:41:57.880 There's two fucking cops on the corner.

01:42:01.180 And that's only a couple hundred feet away from me.

01:42:03.380 I says, oh, my God.

01:42:04.660 This comes down.

01:42:05.900 These cops are going to pull out their guns and make a move.

01:42:08.840 My job now, the guy who's not pulling the trigger, is to go there and kill them so that

01:42:14.920 the shooters can get away.

01:42:16.140 So when you say, well, you weren't the shooter, my job now is to kill them.

01:42:21.120 And I'm sick.

01:42:21.760 I don't want to kill these two cops, but I know what my job is.

01:42:24.560 Thank God, just before they came, they turned around and started walking up the avenue chatting

01:42:31.100 the other way.

01:42:32.180 So they weren't there.

01:42:33.460 But there's actually a cop, from what I know and the government knew, who saw it.

01:42:40.040 And the FBI asked them, why the fuck didn't you pull out your gun?

01:42:44.400 He said, this was so fucking professionally done.

01:42:47.100 I'm not a fucking fool.

01:42:48.740 There must have been backup shooters.

01:42:51.020 This guy was 100 feet, maybe 75 feet ahead of me.

01:42:55.140 If he would have pulled out a gun, he was right.

01:42:56.820 I told the FBI, he was right.

01:42:58.240 I would have killed him.

01:42:59.320 I would have told John, pull up.

01:43:00.460 I would have jumped out the fucking door and killed him.

01:43:02.320 So he was right, this poor bastard, whoever he was.

01:43:05.200 That again, going back to, who's the shooter?

01:43:08.140 Let alley boy go shoot him.

01:43:09.280 And you think from the background.

01:43:10.960 But you're not afraid.

01:43:12.040 Fuck no.

01:43:12.860 Teddy Atlas said you went up to him to want to train with him boxing.

01:43:16.420 And he talked to you about a fear.

01:43:17.980 And you said, I'm not afraid.

01:43:19.180 He says, every boxer's afraid.

01:43:21.700 Teddy Atlas is an asshole.

01:43:24.000 Teddy Atlas was with somebody.

01:43:27.340 His brother, cousin, son.

01:43:28.640 Fucking body he was with.

01:43:30.160 So he had to say these things, I think.

01:43:32.160 But he did ask me that question.

01:43:33.840 I would box.

01:43:34.520 I would train with, not him, with another guy.

01:43:36.940 But he knew.

01:43:38.000 And he was like a stumble bomb.

01:43:39.440 I used to take care of him.

01:43:40.560 And I wanted him to train my son.

01:43:42.380 My son wanted to fight.

01:43:43.680 So I said, Teddy, train him a little bit.

01:43:46.320 He can fight like a bastard.

01:43:47.480 He just don't want to fight.

01:43:48.420 He's more like my wife than me.

01:43:50.000 You know?

01:43:50.340 Yeah.

01:43:50.880 He don't want to fight.

01:43:51.960 You'd have to go there and hit him for him to fight.

01:43:55.960 He'll fight back.

01:43:56.680 And you wish you didn't hit him.

01:43:58.120 He's a tough little bastard.

01:43:59.560 But he won't fight.

01:44:00.940 He's calm-natured.

01:44:02.700 If you argue too much and you get stupid, he'll walk away from you.

01:44:06.000 He's not afraid of you.

01:44:06.820 He just won't fight.

01:44:08.100 He don't want to bother with you.

01:44:09.340 So he's the opposite of me.

01:44:11.280 So, Teddy Atlas said to me one day, are you afraid?

01:44:16.020 I said, no.

01:44:17.460 I didn't say I don't have fear.

01:44:20.240 I said, no.

01:44:21.440 In other words, the reason I said no is when I go in the ring and I did fighting a little

01:44:28.180 bit.

01:44:28.800 Not professionally, but in the ring, in the clubhouse, in the whatever.

01:44:32.180 So I see a guy on the other end of the ring.

01:44:35.280 This motherfucker's got, he's got ripples.

01:44:37.520 He's so ripped.

01:44:39.340 It's not fear.

01:44:41.200 If the bell rings, I'm going to fight him.

01:44:43.580 But I already know I might get beaten.

01:44:46.240 Now, if I was afraid, what am I doing in the ring if I'm afraid?

01:44:49.520 But he took it to a different level, meaning that's cowardice.

01:44:53.940 He's a coward.

01:44:54.540 He's saying he's not afraid.

01:44:55.660 He's really afraid.

01:44:57.100 He's talking.

01:44:58.180 So it was a whole creative thing, which there was a whole entourage of people who wanted to

01:45:04.860 make me look bad and say things like he's an animal, he did this and that.

01:45:09.220 He's afraid.

01:45:10.140 So if he's listening to this fucking thing, he's a tremendous trainer.

01:45:14.180 I don't know how old he is.

01:45:15.760 I'm 74 pushing 75.

01:45:17.740 75, Teddy, come down and put the fucking gloves on with me.

01:45:21.400 I'll show you how scared I am of you.

01:45:24.380 And you're a fucking bitch.

01:45:26.260 Come down and put the gloves on with me.

01:45:27.860 Or meet me in a bar.

01:45:28.980 Or meet me in a back alley.

01:45:30.520 You fucking punk.

01:45:31.660 Then he said, and I was putting on weight, that I went to a hypnotist.

01:45:36.380 He tells me about a hypnotist all these fighters are going to.

01:45:39.060 What are they going there for?

01:45:40.360 For diets, for this, for that.

01:45:42.020 So I hooked up with the hypnotist.

01:45:43.480 He was on the program too.

01:45:44.780 And he says, what do you want?

01:45:46.000 Nothing.

01:45:46.440 I want to keep up my stamina, number one.

01:45:49.340 So I don't lose, you know, stamina.

01:45:51.660 And I want to, you know, keep me away from doing certain things.

01:45:56.100 Eating certain foods.

01:45:57.760 I'm a fucking sugar freak.

01:45:59.460 I love ice cream.

01:46:00.480 I love, so that's what I'm telling my fucking guy who's a, who's a.

01:46:03.440 Hypnotist.

01:46:04.100 Hypnotist.

01:46:04.480 And they make a big deal out of it, like what I was doing.

01:46:08.980 But you punk ass bitch, you haven't done a fraction of anything I've done.

01:46:13.340 Good, bad, or indifferent.

01:46:14.780 You're a punk ass fucking trainer.

01:46:17.260 You look like a fighter, but you ain't a fucking fighter.

01:46:20.060 Who'd you fight?

01:46:21.020 Now I'm going to have a war with him now.

01:46:22.440 The reason why I'm asking this question, Sammy, is because, so in your, in your twenties, you

01:46:28.820 know, our brain is still not fully put together.

01:46:32.440 So in our twenties, we're a little bit more aggressive.

01:46:34.600 We take a lot more risk.

01:46:35.500 We're not afraid of anything.

01:46:36.840 Right.

01:46:37.180 Then we go into our thirties and we got a kid, you know, Gerard, you know, Karen, like,

01:46:41.640 oh my God, you know, I don't want to make anything.

01:46:43.380 The forties.

01:46:44.460 Then you go to do time.

01:46:45.960 Then you're six and a half years in the hole.

01:46:47.540 You got all this imagination taking over your brain.

01:46:51.520 There is no, am I going to live?

01:46:52.780 Am I going to die?

01:46:53.780 Then you get out and you're set.

01:46:55.460 So are there fears, concerns, things that keep you up at night right now?

01:46:59.440 Like your imagination sometimes probably takes off going back.

01:47:02.040 Does it ever, or do you have a hold of it today?

01:47:04.120 I got a hold of it today.

01:47:05.120 You know what I'm worried about today?

01:47:07.580 Well, you could say a bullet at the head.

01:47:08.940 Maybe I, you know, I, I think it's the best way to go.

01:47:11.800 To tell you the truth.

01:47:12.560 If you shoot good and you shoot in the head, you're instantly gone.

01:47:15.600 You don't feel no pain.

01:47:16.340 You don't feel nothing.

01:47:17.460 So that's number one.

01:47:18.700 I fear cancer, stroke.

01:47:20.900 I can't fear these things more than anything else.

01:47:23.880 You do fear cancer and stroke?

01:47:25.780 Well, I would, I would rather not have that.

01:47:27.780 Yeah.

01:47:28.040 I fear that.

01:47:28.740 But at this age, I understand if it ain't here now.

01:47:32.520 Yeah.

01:47:32.760 In this cute little body, it's going to come.

01:47:35.560 It's sooner or later, it's going to come.

01:47:38.060 We all, there's an end.

01:47:39.900 I see rich people who take care of themselves, highly take care of themselves with doctors.

01:47:45.060 And they'll die 68, 70, 76, 80.

01:47:50.200 I mean, that's life.

01:47:52.620 That's going to happen.

01:47:54.040 So am I going to be afraid of it?

01:47:55.780 I'm not afraid of it.

01:47:56.740 I don't want it because I'd rather die quick than die of cancer because I've seen people die.

01:48:02.140 My friend Joe Peruta died and killed me to watch him die like that.

01:48:06.320 I wouldn't want to die like that.

01:48:08.020 I've seen family members get sick and friends.

01:48:11.780 When I was in jail the second time around, I'm in MCC in the hole.

01:48:15.240 So I'm in bed and the four or five guards come to my cell.

01:48:18.920 They say, I mean, get up.

01:48:20.920 I look and they all look solemn.

01:48:23.160 Oh my God, something happened.

01:48:24.680 What happened?

01:48:25.500 We want to tell you some news.

01:48:27.320 Tell me the fuck.

01:48:27.940 What happened?

01:48:28.840 God forbid, my son, my daughter, my ex-wife, whoever.

01:48:32.760 John Gotti died.

01:48:34.120 This was in 2002.

01:48:35.160 I don't know.

01:48:39.440 Okay.

01:48:41.520 One guard.

01:48:42.680 Look, you don't give a fuck.

01:48:44.060 You're fucking wrong.

01:48:44.940 You don't even know what the fuck you're talking about.

01:48:46.060 Why would you tell me I don't give a fuck?

01:48:48.580 Get the fuck out of here.

01:48:50.140 Why would you say that?

01:48:51.360 Well, Sammy, he was your enemy.

01:48:52.960 Wasn't my enemy.

01:48:53.780 We were like fucking, we were like brothers.

01:48:56.160 We were attached at the fucking hip.

01:48:58.460 I don't want to see nobody die like a fucking dog in prison with cancer.

01:49:02.700 Not happy about it.

01:49:04.060 You should be happy.

01:49:04.860 Why should I be happy to watch somebody die like that?

01:49:08.240 I would rather shoot him.

01:49:10.620 And I know that's going to sound demented.

01:49:13.020 But that's my life.

01:49:14.680 Not watching him die like a dog.

01:49:16.660 He died like a dog.

01:49:17.980 Some guy in one of the prisons, a black guy, came to me with a picture.

01:49:21.840 He said, Sammy, who's this guy?

01:49:25.520 I got the picture.

01:49:26.300 I looked at it.

01:49:27.280 Looked at it.

01:49:28.380 I said, I don't know.

01:49:29.300 Come on, Sammy, take another look.

01:49:31.560 I don't know.

01:49:33.120 Who is it?

01:49:33.800 He says, it's John Gotti.

01:49:36.740 They're not hitting me.

01:49:39.020 I never see anything like it in my life.

01:49:41.640 Before he died, they must have taken a picture of him.

01:49:44.960 He didn't look nothing like John Gotti.

01:49:47.340 It was horrible.

01:49:48.040 And it made me think, what a fucking rotten way he died.

01:49:53.120 It's a shame.

01:49:53.720 But it also makes me think of the whole fucking goddamn judicial system and how many guys are going to die like that.

01:50:02.560 Die in prison with life.

01:50:03.820 Every place I went, who's got life, who's got 50 years, who's got 30 years.

01:50:07.620 How many guys are going to die like that?

01:50:09.260 Nobody gives a fuck.

01:50:10.260 All they care about is open the borders and let them in.

01:50:13.520 How about the people who are in prisons in this thing?

01:50:16.140 We can go into prison.

01:50:17.540 I love to go into prison reform and everything like that.

01:50:21.560 I've been with so many different black guys who were friends in prison.

01:50:25.780 And the prisons, the whole system, the judicial system is so rigged.

01:50:30.460 I would talk to them and maybe some guys would ask me a question.

01:50:33.900 It was so fucking rigged.

01:50:35.960 And here's how it's rigged.

01:50:37.320 This poor guy, he's broke.

01:50:39.440 He's coming out of a ghetto.

01:50:40.600 So you don't have a fucking lawyer.

01:50:41.700 They give him a lawyer.

01:50:42.460 Or he gets a cheap ass bullshit lawyer who's really not even a lawyer.

01:50:45.940 He's a jerk off.

01:50:47.000 A horrible lawyer.

01:50:48.080 I'll put it that way.

01:50:48.840 And he gets an investigator they hire.

01:50:51.440 A drunken ex-cop who's his investigator.

01:50:54.680 This broken down lawyer, this broken down cop,

01:50:57.960 is going to fight his battle against,

01:51:01.740 there's four, five, six excellent attorneys

01:51:04.560 working on your case to bury you.

01:51:06.920 Against that one guy who don't even know what planet is on.

01:51:09.920 And who's their investigator?

01:51:11.880 The FBI.

01:51:13.160 How can he win?

01:51:14.740 And when you look at the system,

01:51:16.080 they're even lying and rigging fucking things.

01:51:18.320 And I don't want to say the younger agents I knew,

01:51:21.880 they weren't illegitimate.

01:51:22.920 But look at some of them now.

01:51:24.280 How they get things that they could go after Trump.

01:51:27.920 They could do so many fucking weird things.

01:51:30.360 So how does this guy stand their fucking chance?

01:51:32.840 This poor bastard, and I got an eighth grade education,

01:51:35.920 is asking me for help in my cell.

01:51:38.000 I said, bro, ask the lawyer.

01:51:40.200 I mean, I don't know the details of the case,

01:51:42.000 and I'm not a lawyer.

01:51:43.380 Ask your lawyer.

01:51:45.480 Wait until the end, before trial.

01:51:48.400 And ask him if he can get a plea.

01:51:50.200 That's the best time you can get a plea.

01:51:51.940 Because when they get close to trial,

01:51:53.220 they don't want to even go.

01:51:54.740 Sometimes they'll give you a good deal.

01:51:56.260 Ask them if they can do that.

01:51:57.760 And I feel so guilty even telling them that.

01:51:59.980 Because I really can't tell them,

01:52:01.820 you're fucking dead.

01:52:02.980 You're dead.

01:52:03.440 And if you go ahead with your case,

01:52:05.480 instead of taking 10, 15 years on a plea,

01:52:09.940 you're going to lose the case and get 35 years.

01:52:13.040 So I don't even know what to tell them.

01:52:14.440 And then people would ask me questions

01:52:15.980 because they knew I cooperated with the government.

01:52:17.860 And they would come over and ask me questions.

01:52:19.880 The best answer I used to hear is that

01:52:22.500 it's not perfect,

01:52:24.580 but it's better than Ethiopia's law system.

01:52:27.780 Now I'm in prison.

01:52:28.940 What do I give a fuck about Ethiopia's legal system?

01:52:32.180 I'm not in Ethiopia.

01:52:34.000 And I don't even know where the fuck that is.

01:52:35.660 But who cares about that?

01:52:37.200 I'm in the United States.

01:52:38.640 I got on my last case 20 fucking years,

01:52:41.100 but the government.

01:52:41.940 Listen, what the sentence by the guidelines

01:52:44.360 is supposed to be.

01:52:45.520 12 under low, 15 under high.

01:52:48.840 I got 20.

01:52:50.080 Because Sammy got a lenient sentence the first time.

01:52:53.980 But I got a lenient sentence and I did it.

01:52:55.900 What's that got to do with this sentence?

01:52:57.420 But that's what gave them an upward departure.

01:52:59.100 They gave me 20.

01:52:59.700 You're supposed to be doing 17 and a few.

01:53:02.960 I did 17-7.

01:53:04.480 More than I'm supposed to do.

01:53:06.280 And I got lifetime supervised release.

01:53:09.480 And a $100,000 fight.

01:53:11.400 And I lent them money.

01:53:13.020 Even the kids who got pinched,

01:53:15.260 and a couple of them flipped,

01:53:17.920 says,

01:53:18.700 did Sammy ever buy the drugs?

01:53:20.480 No.

01:53:21.280 This is their informant.

01:53:22.300 No.

01:53:22.740 Did he sell the drugs?

01:53:24.220 No.

01:53:25.080 Did he go out with yous?

01:53:26.400 Hanging out?

01:53:27.200 No.

01:53:27.860 They were kids.

01:53:28.400 I was 55 years old.

01:53:30.180 I wasn't going to go to clubs and hang out with them.

01:53:32.220 So what the fuck did I do?

01:53:34.360 I lent them money.

01:53:35.520 When I took the plea,

01:53:37.140 I told Lynn Stewart,

01:53:39.060 who was my lawyer,

01:53:39.940 I'm copping out the things, Lynn,

01:53:42.660 on this plea.

01:53:44.200 There's reasons.

01:53:45.200 There's another whole story.

01:53:46.400 It'll be in the book.

01:53:47.240 But I didn't even do.

01:53:48.820 She said,

01:53:49.180 what's the difference?

01:53:49.940 I said,

01:53:50.240 you want to know something?

01:53:50.840 You're right.

01:53:51.600 What the fuck is the difference?

01:53:53.180 Whether they're talking about 50,000 pills,

01:53:54.940 100,000 pills,

01:53:55.780 or a million pills.

01:53:56.720 I guess it don't make any difference.

01:53:58.060 Let me ask you this question.

01:53:59.440 So you're running a government.

01:54:01.120 You're running a nation.

01:54:02.040 Hypothetically.

01:54:02.960 Okay.

01:54:03.200 And you're thinking from that standpoint.

01:54:05.220 You're sitting there saying,

01:54:06.580 to the one conversation,

01:54:07.740 you say,

01:54:07.860 I'm talking to this guy.

01:54:09.440 Hey,

01:54:10.100 get off the phone.

01:54:11.280 No,

01:54:11.720 right now,

01:54:12.180 you don't ever get off the phone.

01:54:13.240 We don't ask my permission.

01:54:14.260 Here's how this is going to go.

01:54:15.760 We're going to fight.

01:54:16.540 You're bigger than me.

01:54:17.280 You're probably going to beat me.

01:54:18.800 But don't close your eyes tonight.

01:54:20.340 Because I'm going to kill you.

01:54:21.900 And I'm not worried about going to prison for two years.

01:54:24.020 I'll do my time.

01:54:24.780 I'll come out.

01:54:25.200 It's not a big deal.

01:54:26.500 You immediately go to the worst case scenario, right?

01:54:28.700 And the worst case scenario is,

01:54:30.120 if you commit a crime,

01:54:31.020 and the government's going to have some kind of a punishment for you,

01:54:34.120 and the punishment is going to prison,

01:54:35.520 the prison doesn't scare you.

01:54:36.580 So you got a life penalty,

01:54:37.960 which is death penalty.

01:54:39.300 Hey,

01:54:39.460 if you do this,

01:54:39.940 we'll kill you.

01:54:40.420 Let's take that part aside.

01:54:42.120 You got imprisonment.

01:54:43.280 What punishment could there be for you to not even think about committing that crime?

01:54:49.680 Because you don't want to face the punishment.

01:54:51.420 Is there any punishment that would have prevented Sammy the Bull from committing the crime?

01:54:56.540 No.

01:54:57.020 So it's not the punishment that you're seeing.

01:54:58.900 And I wouldn't have got,

01:54:59.680 if I would have killed the guy on the phone,

01:55:01.540 I wouldn't have got two years.

01:55:02.460 I already got life.

01:55:03.020 Life.

01:55:03.720 And I understood that.

01:55:04.680 But what I'm asking you is,

01:55:06.480 is there any kind of punishment to change,

01:55:09.780 to say,

01:55:10.160 for the rest of your life,

01:55:11.020 you can't do X, Y, Z,

01:55:12.160 or we're going to do this.

01:55:13.220 Where does it hurt to hurt the criminal,

01:55:16.340 where the criminal says,

01:55:17.100 that pain,

01:55:18.720 I'm not willing to put up with?

01:55:20.060 Well,

01:55:20.320 why wouldn't I take the,

01:55:21.460 that's a good point.

01:55:23.120 It's a good point.

01:55:23.660 I'll give you that.

01:55:24.240 It's a good point.

01:55:25.180 But take my point.

01:55:26.280 How about these fucking people

01:55:27.840 who just broke fucking laws

01:55:29.240 against Trump

01:55:31.420 and broke every law in the fucking book?

01:55:33.580 They're not using the RICO law against them.

01:55:37.760 They used it against us,

01:55:39.400 the Italians,

01:55:40.460 the black,

01:55:41.240 the Hispanic.

01:55:42.380 Why don't they use it over here?

01:55:44.000 If Comey,

01:55:44.940 he's the head of the FBI,

01:55:45.940 somebody in the Justice Department,

01:55:47.700 and somebody in this CIA,

01:55:50.140 and somebody in this organization,

01:55:51.900 they're all hooking up

01:55:52.900 and they all broke the law.

01:55:54.160 Let's assume that's happening

01:55:55.440 and that's true.

01:55:56.460 Why don't they use the RICO law on them?

01:55:59.780 That they can't win.

01:56:01.180 They made the RICO.

01:56:02.080 So the fucking RICO law is made for me

01:56:04.600 and blacks and Hispanic

01:56:06.520 and people you could put in prison.

01:56:08.840 You want the people to look at us

01:56:10.960 while you break the law.

01:56:13.100 We're the crook.

01:56:14.200 Worry about Sammy.

01:56:15.760 Yeah, I robbed 100,000

01:56:17.420 while you guys are robbing millions.

01:56:19.880 Listen,

01:56:20.280 I understand the government better than anybody.

01:56:22.320 You know why?

01:56:23.240 Because they're all different families to me.

01:56:26.420 The Democratic Party is the Gambino family.

01:56:28.720 The Republican Party is the Genovese family.

01:56:31.320 The fucking Moderates is the Columbo family.

01:56:35.220 The fucking Meteor is this family.

01:56:37.600 Hollywood is this family.

01:56:39.200 They're all different families.

01:56:40.840 Everybody's got a motive.

01:56:42.660 Everything.

01:56:43.140 Look at the whole fucking picture.

01:56:45.360 It's all greed.

01:56:46.860 It's all about money.

01:56:48.080 The whole country.

01:56:49.540 So if you look at it through my eyes,

01:56:52.480 everybody's doing what I did.

01:56:54.980 Everybody.

01:56:55.820 Not everybody.

01:56:56.560 There's legitimate people

01:56:57.320 who are caught in the mix of this.

01:57:00.640 I'm not talking about them.

01:57:02.580 I'm talking about these congressmen

01:57:04.620 and governors and people.

01:57:06.500 They're caught all the time,

01:57:07.840 left and right.

01:57:09.120 What do they get?

01:57:09.740 A kick in the ass?

01:57:10.420 A boot on the slap on the wrist?

01:57:12.180 Why is all these other people,

01:57:13.660 that law,

01:57:14.840 it's got to be so good and so bad.

01:57:17.740 I told you in the beginning,

01:57:19.920 you want to stop a lot of crimes?

01:57:22.760 Give opportunities.

01:57:24.520 We robbed as a mom.

01:57:25.800 You guys are robbing.

01:57:26.960 You're robbing too much.

01:57:28.500 We took a sliver of the pie

01:57:29.720 so other people could eat.

01:57:31.200 Human beings could eat.

01:57:32.660 You're taking everything.

01:57:33.960 A fucking middle class person can't eat.

01:57:36.180 They can't go to a movie sometime.

01:57:37.720 They can't spend nothing

01:57:38.560 because they're broke.

01:57:39.840 They're broke because of reasons.

01:57:42.120 Your reasons.

01:57:43.220 If you want to hit me with 3,000 years,

01:57:45.440 okay,

01:57:47.240 but let me sit next to whoever.

01:57:50.760 James called me.

01:57:51.720 Hey, bro,

01:57:52.620 how many years did you get?

01:57:54.300 40.

01:57:55.580 Oh, that's cool.

01:57:56.800 I got 25.

01:57:58.500 Well, I got 50.

01:57:59.760 Well, I got life.

01:58:01.160 Where is his seat?

01:58:02.420 Where is he in prison?

01:58:04.020 In what cell?

01:58:05.040 I could tell you all the black and Hispanic

01:58:07.020 and every fucking body else like me,

01:58:09.180 they're in prison.

01:58:10.380 Now, I'm not saying if you break the law,

01:58:11.900 there's no consequence.

01:58:12.940 Make an equal, fair system.

01:58:16.600 The whole country,

01:58:17.360 to me, I look at the country,

01:58:18.840 I don't even know what planet I'm on.

01:58:20.960 I got out of prison.

01:58:21.960 I seen phones.

01:58:22.700 I don't know even how to use a fucking,

01:58:24.040 still now.

01:58:24.800 I have a hard time with the phone.

01:58:26.500 I look at computers.

01:58:27.420 I don't know what planet I'm on.

01:58:28.960 You almost eliminated my existence.

01:58:31.820 When I got out,

01:58:33.120 you got to talk to the television.

01:58:35.100 Go to Netflix.

01:58:36.740 If you don't do that,

01:58:37.940 nothing happens.

01:58:39.620 Before, when I used to talk to television,

01:58:41.400 they thought I was crazy.

01:58:42.500 Now, if you don't talk to the television,

01:58:44.140 you're crazy.

01:58:44.840 So, look at the system.

01:58:47.060 Don't look at me as an individual.

01:58:49.520 I got away with X.

01:58:51.880 So did everybody.

01:58:53.120 So did this whole country built on it.

01:58:55.280 Look at universities.

01:58:56.680 They got people hating conservatives.

01:58:58.760 Now, I was a liberal most of my fucking life.

01:59:01.280 Sometimes, I'm a moderate.

01:59:03.560 Sometimes, I think the conservatives are right.

01:59:06.340 I'm on that side.

01:59:07.420 Sometimes, I think the liberals are right.

01:59:09.320 I'm on that side.

01:59:10.020 I'll give you another example.

01:59:11.080 I'm in the fucking gym.

01:59:12.040 I go to the gym.

01:59:13.080 And there's a whirlpool.

01:59:14.140 I'm sitting in there for my fucking raggedy-ass bones.

01:59:17.380 And I'm getting a whirlpool.

01:59:19.200 And there's a woman in there.

01:59:20.880 And a guy.

01:59:21.460 He's sitting up on top with his feet in the fucking thing.

01:59:24.000 And she's in there up to her neck.

01:59:25.660 And they're talking about letting illegal aliens in.

01:59:28.960 We should give them licenses.

01:59:32.000 And we should give them cars.

01:59:33.380 And we should give them Social Security.

01:59:35.440 And we should give them food stamps.

01:59:36.860 We should give them this and this.

01:59:38.000 And I'm listening to the whole thing.

01:59:39.560 10, 12, 15 minutes goes by.

01:59:41.640 I'm toasted.

01:59:42.420 I'm ready to get out.

01:59:43.440 I got to open my mouth.

01:59:44.620 That's just me.

01:59:45.540 I said, do you people mind if I injected myself into your conversation for two or three minutes?

01:59:51.260 Because they're going to get out.

01:59:52.200 No, no, no.

01:59:52.760 Go ahead.

01:59:53.420 I said, you're really, really good people, both of you.

01:59:56.300 Really, really good people.

01:59:58.340 You're so interested in helping people.

02:00:00.340 I like that.

02:00:01.140 You're really good people.

02:00:02.560 The only thing is that you're racist, both of you.

02:00:05.620 Oh, wait a minute, wait a minute.

02:00:06.920 We're not racist.

02:00:07.440 Yes, you are.

02:00:08.060 What do you mean?

02:00:08.900 We didn't say anything about black people.

02:00:10.360 I don't give a fuck what you said.

02:00:12.060 What you said is you want to give all of this.

02:00:15.240 You didn't say one word about helping black people in our country.

02:00:20.500 Their forefathers came here like fucking slaves.

02:00:24.020 They're stuck in some ghettos.

02:00:26.040 They need opportunities.

02:00:27.820 You didn't see one word about helping them.

02:00:31.200 Just Hispanic people running across the border.

02:00:34.440 So you're good people.

02:00:35.420 But you forgot a whole section of our country.

02:00:37.920 And they belong here.

02:00:39.040 Maybe not by their own will, but they belong here.

02:00:41.280 So I think you're a racist.

02:00:42.980 And I'm going to go because I've been in this thing for 15 minutes.

02:00:46.500 So I added my two minutes.

02:00:47.900 I hope you enjoyed it.

02:00:49.320 I'll see you later.

02:00:50.460 I get up and walk the fuck out.

02:00:52.020 But that's the truth.

02:00:53.280 Look at what the fuck is going on in the country.

02:00:55.420 You can't ask me, how would you think, or this is too much, or this is this, when all

02:01:00.180 this is going on.

02:01:01.560 If you want to point out all of my wrongs, and I agree with you, I would say, like I told

02:01:07.620 you from the beginning, I wish I had a different opportunity when I was born and raised.

02:01:14.320 I wish I wasn't dyslexic.

02:01:15.740 Only God knows what I would have done, that my parents would have been proud of me, would

02:01:21.740 have helped me to go to schools.

02:01:23.340 I'm not a bad person.

02:01:24.420 I don't enjoy, this is going to sound hypocritical too, I don't like killing or enjoy it.

02:01:29.380 I don't like it.

02:01:30.240 I just do it like a soldier would do it for the military, like I was going to do in Vietnam

02:01:36.240 if I would have went there.

02:01:37.880 I don't know.

02:01:38.740 The only Vietnamese people I know do my fingernails or my toenails, and they're great people.

02:01:43.680 And when I look at it sometimes, they're so nice, I say, what the fuck were we doing

02:01:48.580 in Vietnam?

02:01:49.480 Nothing happened.

02:01:50.340 They didn't come over here and rape our...

02:01:53.500 The whole country from the beginning, it was a great country.

02:01:59.780 There's no country like it.

02:02:01.080 I agree with them, the legal system, there's nothing like it.

02:02:04.600 But you've got to make it fair all the way around.

02:02:07.760 Then maybe you don't make people like me.

02:02:10.340 Maybe you don't have that many people shooting each other in Chicago.

02:02:15.120 Maybe a lot of things are different.

02:02:17.120 It's on you, motherfucker, not me.

02:02:20.000 The reason why I'm asking that question...

02:02:21.340 I know.

02:02:21.840 Listen, you're an intelligent guy.

02:02:23.820 No, I'm not actually asking the question.

02:02:25.000 I wasn't sure what I was going to do with this interview.

02:02:27.160 I got to really like you now.

02:02:28.860 I'm not going to give you no more interviews, but...

02:02:31.280 That's the last one.

02:02:32.940 Honestly, though, I'm asking the question because for me, it goes back to how do we prevent the

02:02:38.860 eight-year-old Sammy from getting into that?

02:02:43.400 That's the part.

02:02:44.560 Absolutely.

02:02:45.100 And then from there, how do we make the 22-year-old Sammy who is about to commit something to say,

02:02:52.520 I don't know if I'm willing to face that crime.

02:02:54.400 He never becomes the 22-year-old Sammy.

02:02:56.240 If we handle that eight-years-old.

02:02:57.640 Yes.

02:02:58.340 Not just the Sammy.

02:02:59.660 So it goes back...

02:03:00.300 Every fucking kid in this country, God made them.

02:03:04.000 That's our future.

02:03:05.260 We're all going to get old and die.

02:03:07.060 No matter what we do, that's our future.

02:03:09.920 All those little kids.

02:03:11.440 That's why child molestation and these degenerates, you got to kill them.

02:03:16.000 I believe in the capital punishment for them.

02:03:18.460 Rapists.

02:03:19.180 Her great little woman, she's just walking to work.

02:03:21.440 She might have a nice body.

02:03:22.600 Whatever the fuck turns you on about her.

02:03:24.340 You want to talk to her and try to make her?

02:03:25.900 Good.

02:03:26.240 But leave her the fuck alone.

02:03:27.720 Leave your hands off her.

02:03:28.460 Make the field, when they're young, go.

02:03:32.320 Put back people who understand psych, learning disabilities.

02:03:37.420 I mean, they're on it now.

02:03:38.580 I see from the kids, my grandchildren, they go to school.

02:03:41.560 I see they're more into it.

02:03:43.660 Get them even more into it.

02:03:45.360 Start there.

02:03:46.160 Invest the money in the kids.

02:03:48.160 And you won't have 22-year-olds.

02:03:50.840 Now, you're always going to have a nut.

02:03:52.400 That's why gun control don't work.

02:03:54.260 You're always going to have screwballs.

02:03:55.960 And they're always going to do something weird.

02:03:57.660 If they don't use a gun, they'll use a knife or they'll use a bomb.

02:04:00.900 They'll find a way to get it.

02:04:01.680 Or they'll hit you with a car.

02:04:02.880 They'll hit 15 people with a car.

02:04:04.860 Just complete assholes.

02:04:05.960 Sammy, when you went to a prison, you know, a lot of people go to prison.

02:04:09.280 They find Machiavelli.

02:04:10.240 Some find Jesus.

02:04:11.040 Who did you find in prison?

02:04:12.460 You know, I looked for Jesus.

02:04:14.240 I looked for prayer.

02:04:15.440 And Jesus wasn't in any of the prisons I was in.

02:04:19.240 And I already knew Machiavelli, so I didn't find him in prison.

02:04:22.520 What I did find is this.

02:04:24.140 In 2004, they took away smoking.

02:04:27.060 And I wanted to smoke.

02:04:28.620 Especially when you tell me I can't.

02:04:30.560 That makes me want to smoke.

02:04:31.980 I go by the Indians.

02:04:33.620 They have this little group of Indians.

02:04:37.320 And they're in a circle.

02:04:38.560 And they put tobacco.

02:04:40.000 It's Indian tobacco.

02:04:40.900 It ain't regular tobacco.

02:04:41.820 It's shitty tobacco.

02:04:43.060 In a pipe.

02:04:43.680 And they smoke past the pipe around.

02:04:45.860 So I wanted to smoke.

02:04:47.000 So I went and asked them if I could join their group.

02:04:49.680 And they said, you've got to check with the counselor and the chaplain.

02:04:53.100 And I went to them.

02:04:53.820 I said, I want to change my religion to Indian.

02:04:55.840 I'm an Indian.

02:04:56.320 Made in American Indian now.

02:04:57.580 You could do that in the federal government.

02:04:59.760 You want that?

02:05:00.700 Yep.

02:05:01.200 I changed it.

02:05:02.200 I'm in this circle.

02:05:04.400 And I went there to smoke.

02:05:06.340 I went in with a lie.

02:05:07.920 They did the ceremony.

02:05:09.460 And they never prayed for themselves.

02:05:11.400 When you have the pipe, you pray for everybody else but you.

02:05:16.200 I pray for Patrick that this interview is great.

02:05:20.300 I pray that he becomes greater than he is already.

02:05:24.000 And if you have problems, you have problems with your wife or something,

02:05:27.780 I hope Patrick's wife is healthy.

02:05:30.740 And so I got to understand the religion a little bit.

02:05:34.040 And I got to respect it.

02:05:35.660 I did it for five years.

02:05:37.240 One of the guys in there said, Sammy, can I talk to you a minute?

02:05:40.560 What?

02:05:41.320 He says, you ain't an Indian.

02:05:44.120 And I said, I know, bro.

02:05:45.140 He said, we have wicker.

02:05:46.940 I said, what's wicker?

02:05:47.660 The witches and the whole thing.

02:05:49.160 Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

02:05:50.140 Why don't you join us and pray with us a little bit to the goddess and the god.

02:05:54.000 I said, all right, I'll do that too.

02:05:55.740 I joined their group.

02:05:56.360 I was Catholic growing up.

02:05:59.640 So when I really, really found out, even a Muslim guy came to me and wanted to become Muslim.

02:06:04.780 I couldn't do that.

02:06:05.520 I like pork.

02:06:06.120 I'm not going to do it.

02:06:06.780 So I turned around, and what I understood is this.

02:06:10.800 Everybody believes in God in one form or another.

02:06:14.100 All the religions is nothing more than a road to God.

02:06:18.600 The Jewish community has it.

02:06:20.580 The Christians have it.

02:06:21.840 The Catholics have it.

02:06:22.900 The Indians have it.

02:06:23.840 Everybody has that road to God.

02:06:26.620 Wicker people, they all have the God.

02:06:29.520 The road is different, and we start arguing and fighting over it, but we all have the God.

02:06:34.260 That's what it is.

02:06:35.660 If you believe in God, it doesn't matter whether you believe a monkey.

02:06:39.400 That's good.

02:06:39.880 The guys I saw that found Jesus in prison, I've seen guys who found him, and they're usually

02:06:45.760 crying and whining and asking him for less time and want to get out and do this, that,

02:06:50.540 and the other thing, or it's an excuse for something else.

02:06:53.580 The devil made me do it.

02:06:54.960 I didn't do this on my own.

02:06:56.860 I mean, I would love, you know, this is what they would say if they were me.

02:07:00.160 The devil made me do it.

02:07:01.580 I found Jesus in prison, and I became a holy roller, and that's it.

02:07:06.180 No, I would be lying through my teeth, and one thing God's going to do with me, I always

02:07:11.620 said this, when I get up there, if I get up there, he's going to say one thing about

02:07:16.600 you, Sammy, you're not a fucking phony or a liar.

02:07:19.500 You tell it like you feel it.

02:07:20.880 You did what you did, and whatever's going to be, is going to be.

02:07:24.460 But to start lying and crying, how are they going to face God?

02:07:28.100 All them years are lying about Jesus.

02:07:29.980 You didn't believe Jesus.

02:07:31.120 Yeah, but I had to get out of prison.

02:07:32.420 But now you've got to face God.

02:07:33.420 He's going to know you.

02:07:34.380 You're full of shit.

02:07:36.140 You, go on the express on that train over there.

02:07:38.380 Get the fuck out of here.

02:07:39.520 So, I don't know.

02:07:40.680 No, that makes sense.

02:07:41.460 I mean, it's your testimony, but are you following any of the Epstein stuff?

02:07:45.300 Because I know he was in the same section as you and Suicide Watch.

02:07:48.880 What is Suicide Watch?

02:07:50.120 Did he kill himself?

02:07:51.000 Was he suicide?

02:07:51.660 What do you think?

02:07:52.240 I was in 9th South.

02:07:53.360 There's another one.

02:07:54.700 There's 10th South.

02:07:55.800 Okay.

02:07:56.580 10th South is extremely secure.

02:07:59.600 I don't know if he was in that.

02:08:00.900 But he had another celly at one point, so I don't think he was in 10th South.

02:08:04.480 10th South, you can't even breathe.

02:08:06.120 When they give you your food, the guards can't feed you.

02:08:09.160 They can't even open the slide.

02:08:10.700 A lieutenant's got to come up and open the slide.

02:08:12.820 If he's up there, I don't know how the fuck they would have killed him.

02:08:15.460 And there's only one bunk, so I don't know how he would even hang himself.

02:08:18.660 So, it's probably on 9th South.

02:08:20.100 It don't take long to kill yourself.

02:08:22.000 I mean, if he hung himself, I don't believe anybody killed him.

02:08:25.580 I think he knew it was over.

02:08:27.740 And he was going to be tortured for his family and whatever, and he took himself out.

02:08:32.380 Now, I don't know.

02:08:33.180 They're going to keep it going, see who else.

02:08:36.520 Now, a lot of people, like Clinton, was with him.

02:08:41.300 He said two, three times, five times.

02:08:43.320 On the flights, he's with him 26 times.

02:08:46.440 We also know he's a fucking degenerate.

02:08:48.580 So, maybe those people take a deep breath.

02:08:50.780 Ah.

02:08:51.380 You know, I'll take a personal, Clinton, wherever you are, that I'm calling you a degenerate.

02:08:54.700 But you are what you are.

02:08:55.900 And I'm a man, I understand.

02:08:57.560 But when you hit a certain point, you got to keep your zipper closed.

02:09:00.360 You can't be fucking nailing a 21-year-old.

02:09:03.000 She's old enough to know better, and I give you that.

02:09:04.920 But still, you're in a tremendous position of power.

02:09:09.220 But you're a douche.

02:09:10.100 I don't even want to talk about you.

02:09:11.140 Boxing, gambling, did you guys ever do anything with Don King?

02:09:13.960 Any contacts with Don King?

02:09:15.340 Yes.

02:09:15.920 I went in front of a grand jury.

02:09:17.640 I was subpoenaed in front of a grand jury for boxing.

02:09:21.520 When I was out with John Gotti, Mike Tyson was the shit.

02:09:26.980 Now, I had another guy, and I can't think of his name.

02:09:29.980 I knew the trainer, and I knew the black guy.

02:09:32.480 I was training in the gym with him occasionally.

02:09:35.620 He was a tough fighter, and he was a little bit over the hill.

02:09:38.440 So I thought of a thing to set up a fight.

02:09:41.500 I wanted him, and someday I'll get the name.

02:09:44.360 I can't remember right now.

02:09:45.560 But I'll get him to fight the champ in Italy.

02:09:49.820 The champ in Italy was with two brothers who were both made guys in the mob.

02:09:55.880 So I'm reaching them through to the Italian people.

02:09:58.700 I want this guy to come in and fight my guy, the black guy.

02:10:04.260 And my guy will win, so he gets your belt.

02:10:06.880 So if he wins and he has your belt, I want to hook up a fight with Mike Tyson,

02:10:14.100 and I want big money because it's a champion.

02:10:16.500 He's got a belt.

02:10:17.200 You've got a belt.

02:10:18.160 The numbers are bigger.

02:10:19.540 We know that Mike will probably beat you.

02:10:21.800 Now, if the people around Mike want to make him duck a fight,

02:10:25.220 I don't think he would do that.

02:10:26.520 But then it's another story.

02:10:29.260 But we never got that far.

02:10:30.320 The Italian guy had to come here and fight a lesser opponent first before he fought my guy.

02:10:38.000 And he lost to that guy.

02:10:40.460 So now the thing is off.

02:10:41.900 But in the process of all of this, John knows what's going on.

02:10:45.700 I have a guy, a street guy, can't even think of his name.

02:10:49.020 But he's going to Don King, talking about a potential fight.

02:10:54.200 He's not having a lot of luck.

02:10:56.000 Don King stands up.

02:10:57.560 He don't want to know part of this thing.

02:10:59.680 He mentions John Gotti, this, that.

02:11:02.060 Fuck.

02:11:02.780 I'm a tough guy.

02:11:04.180 I went to jail for this and that.

02:11:06.320 Fuck, John.

02:11:07.120 I'm not doing any of that bullshit.

02:11:09.000 So the kid comes back and tells me.

02:11:10.280 So I said, John, forget the whole thing now.

02:11:14.360 It ain't going to work.

02:11:15.400 He won't do it.

02:11:16.940 Don King won't do what we want.

02:11:18.920 Did you tell him to mention my name?

02:11:20.540 Yeah, I did.

02:11:21.160 He didn't want to be body.

02:11:22.780 He said he's a tough guy.

02:11:24.040 He did time.

02:11:25.000 Really?

02:11:26.160 Yeah.

02:11:27.580 Tell the kid to go back, make another appointment, and kill him.

02:11:30.940 Do you want me to kill Don King?

02:11:32.220 No, not you.

02:11:33.360 The kid, this guy.

02:11:34.640 You want me to tell this kid to go back and kill Don King?

02:11:38.140 Yeah, well, hit him with a proposal.

02:11:39.780 If he says no, take a gun out and shoot him.

02:11:42.220 All right.

02:11:43.000 That's what you want?

02:11:43.920 Yeah.

02:11:44.400 All right.

02:11:45.420 I grabbed the kid.

02:11:47.100 He was in the kid.

02:11:48.260 He's a guy, you know, who's tough.

02:11:50.820 Listen, you're going to go, you're going to hit him with this proposal.

02:11:53.940 If he says no and gives you that shit, I'm a tough guy, take the gun out and shoot him.

02:11:59.140 Shoot him in my head.

02:12:00.480 Kill him.

02:12:00.880 Do you want me to kill Don King?

02:12:02.620 I said, it's not me.

02:12:04.340 John wants you to kill him.

02:12:06.220 What do you want me to tell you?

02:12:07.040 You got to kill him.

02:12:07.760 He took off.

02:12:08.460 The kid took off.

02:12:09.960 I'd never seen how to have him again.

02:12:12.020 He must have left the country.

02:12:13.440 I don't know where the fuck he went.

02:12:14.820 He took off.

02:12:15.980 So we never went after Don King because I didn't want him.

02:12:20.360 I'm definitely not going after him because this is insane now.

02:12:23.480 We're hitting the guy because you don't want to do a deal.

02:12:26.200 We'll be hitting guys every other week.

02:12:28.060 So the hit was given, but the hit wasn't made.

02:12:30.080 It wasn't completed because the guy ran off.

02:12:31.960 The guy took off.

02:12:32.780 Sammy, I've heard a lot of stories with, you know, what happened with John F. Kennedy and

02:12:37.120 the involvement of mafia, you know, and I've heard so many different stories.

02:12:41.400 What do you know about what happened with John F. Kennedy?

02:12:43.800 I don't really know.

02:12:44.920 There's so many people who were possible candidates for that.

02:12:49.220 But to make it into a shorter story, the FBI, when I had cooperated, came to me and one

02:12:54.440 of them, I was in Quantico, and they said, this guy's going to come down to you and ask

02:12:59.240 you some really high-level questions.

02:13:01.360 I said, all right.

02:13:02.040 They came down, a bunch of guys in suits, and they said, the same thing you said, what

02:13:06.900 do you know about Kennedy?

02:13:08.180 Is that it?

02:13:09.100 Yeah.

02:13:09.800 From what I understand, you guys should know.

02:13:12.620 You guys participated in this hit.

02:13:14.820 It wasn't a mafia dude on that grassy home.

02:13:16.980 You people, oh, scrub this, and they all left.

02:13:21.920 John Kennedy was good.

02:13:24.280 He was with the mob.

02:13:25.820 He did everything he was asked to, and then some.

02:13:28.500 His father was a bootlegger.

02:13:30.260 They were with us.

02:13:31.160 All the Kennedys have dirty laundry.

02:13:33.560 Bobby Kennedy couldn't stand the fact that the mafia helped make him win the election.

02:13:39.060 He went to war with the mob.

02:13:41.020 He went to war with Jimmy Hoffa.

02:13:43.300 He went to war with the head of the FBI, Hoover.

02:13:46.980 He went to war with everybody.

02:13:48.420 He made so many enemies from a guy that was loved, John Kennedy, and the father who was

02:13:53.700 respected was a bootlegger, and they were living up to their word.

02:13:57.220 There are so many enemies, who knows?

02:13:59.180 Rumor has it that there's a whole concoction mixed with them all, but I don't know.

02:14:03.240 For sure, I have no idea in a positive way.

02:14:08.200 Just what I hear from rumors and stuff like that.

02:14:11.340 Last thing here is speed round.

02:14:13.600 I'll give you a name.

02:14:15.000 Tell me the first thing that comes to your mind.

02:14:16.800 One word that comes to your mind.

02:14:18.240 Philip Leonetti.

02:14:20.120 Good guy.

02:14:21.000 Comey.

02:14:21.780 Schema.

02:14:22.560 Gotti Jr.

02:14:23.440 He didn't belong.

02:14:24.640 Joe Colucci.

02:14:25.780 Good guy made bad decisions.

02:14:28.500 Trump.

02:14:29.500 One word is not even fair, because the only word I could actually think of, he has so many

02:14:35.620 things on both sides, but he's the president of the United States, period.

02:14:41.100 Like him, dislike him, it's not your call.

02:14:44.400 Sonny Francis.

02:14:45.600 Good stand-up guy.

02:14:47.360 Gotti Sr.

02:14:48.460 A tremendous disappointment.

02:14:50.420 Albert Krieger.

02:14:51.800 A highly educated asshole.

02:14:55.340 Frank Calley.

02:14:56.240 Signs were that he was really a good guy.

02:14:59.700 Assistant Attorney General Linda Lacewell.

02:15:02.340 As a reward for finding me guilty and going for this upward departure, they offered her a

02:15:07.380 smorgasblog.

02:15:08.140 That's all she needed, and she probably ate everything.

02:15:12.040 Fat fuck.

02:15:13.680 Richard Kuklinski.

02:15:15.540 Is that the Iceman?

02:15:16.580 Yes.

02:15:17.520 There isn't even a word for this piece of shit.

02:15:20.800 I would like to go to wherever he's buried, dig him up, and shoot him right in his fucking

02:15:27.320 skull of his head.

02:15:29.380 Piece of shit.

02:15:30.100 Liar.

02:15:31.480 Hoffa.

02:15:32.220 He wanted the union back.

02:15:33.480 After he came out, he couldn't get it.

02:15:35.240 Bad decision on his part.

02:15:36.520 Sammy, final thoughts here with what you're working on right now with the book and the

02:15:41.340 podcast.

02:15:41.960 You said it's a podcast.

02:15:43.200 This will be coming out hopefully soon.

02:15:46.420 Not too long from now.

02:15:47.800 Maybe a month, a couple of months.

02:15:49.000 Who knows?

02:15:49.380 But it's going to be me talking to people, other ex-gangsters, Asians, and myself talking

02:15:58.800 about my life from soup to nuts, including this conversation now.

02:16:04.460 So this isn't just you.

02:16:05.820 This is you talking with other people as guests as well on the show.

02:16:08.860 Right.

02:16:09.620 Very interesting.

02:16:11.120 Final thoughts, Sammy.

02:16:12.320 You haven't done this for quite some time since April 16th, you know, 20-some years ago.

02:16:18.440 The world's watching right now.

02:16:19.700 This is going to get a lot of views.

02:16:21.040 This is going to create a lot of conversations.

02:16:22.980 What are your final thoughts?

02:16:23.960 After every negative thing that was said about me and all the lies, I'm amazed how many good

02:16:31.680 people talk to me, deal with me, trust me from different businesses.

02:16:39.460 I know that they're a little afraid when they first start, but once they get to know me like

02:16:43.740 my neighbors and people I'm doing business with all over the place, I have a tremendous,

02:16:49.080 warm, trusting relationship.

02:16:51.120 And it amazes me, after all the bullshit I went through, there's a world full of real

02:16:58.120 good fucking people.

02:16:59.420 And I'm amazed by that.

02:17:00.940 I'm enjoying that part of my life.

02:17:03.880 I love my ex-wife to death.

02:17:06.500 She's my soulmate.

02:17:08.900 She's not my wife anymore, but she's my soulmate.

02:17:11.980 My daughter, my son, my grandchildren.

02:17:15.280 If you could find something really pleasant after all of this shit, which I don't know,

02:17:21.120 I did, and I still do every day, and if I die tomorrow, this fulfilled me for all the

02:17:28.120 pain and suffering I went through, and for everything I did and went through, this made

02:17:32.300 me whole again, made me feel good about myself and about everybody around me.

02:17:38.120 And I know there's people who will call themselves victims and say something, all you so-called

02:17:45.120 victims.

02:17:46.120 You weren't a victim when your father or your brother or whoever was around and he was running

02:17:53.120 around with me and killing people.

02:17:55.120 That don't bother you.

02:17:56.120 What bothers you is that I was part of killing them.

02:18:01.120 I was part of their life.

02:18:03.120 Now, there could be a situation and I tell my daughter and my ex-wife and my son, if I

02:18:10.120 die tomorrow, this was my choice, my life.

02:18:13.120 Don't be mad at anybody.

02:18:15.120 Be mad at me, I broke the rules.

02:18:17.120 Don't be mad at the person who comes, if they ever come.

02:18:21.120 Period.

02:18:22.120 No regrets.

02:18:23.120 Very few.

02:18:24.120 Very few.

02:18:25.120 I mean, of course, like a human being, everybody who wants to play Monday quarterback, is there

02:18:31.120 things that I would do differently?

02:18:33.120 Without a doubt.

02:18:34.120 I still respect the life.

02:18:36.120 I think that the people of the left that are around now, that are in Goza Nostra, the

02:18:41.120 Mafia, are doing the right thing.

02:18:44.120 They're curving themselves and curving their appetite.

02:18:47.120 They're using their head and they're acting like Goza Nostra should have acted, maybe in

02:18:52.120 my era.

02:18:53.120 My era was different.

02:18:55.120 And the eras before that, it was like the Jesse James days.

02:19:00.120 It was a different ball game.

02:19:02.120 It was a user in your head and you're a tremendous example of quality goes in Australia.

02:19:11.120 Stay away from killing, from all of that bullshit.

02:19:14.120 Do your little bullshit petty crimes, there's not 50 million agents on your back.

02:19:18.120 As soon as you start killing and doing stupid shit, then you're going to wear these people

02:19:22.120 around your neck.

02:19:23.120 You'll become a target again.

02:19:25.120 And I can guarantee you, I've been with them for a while.

02:19:27.120 And then, I also met, you know, everybody.

02:19:31.120 I don't like the government.

02:19:32.120 I already met a lot, a lot of agents that are really, really good people.

02:19:36.120 Strong, solid, good people.

02:19:39.120 Guy's retired.

02:19:41.120 Still call me today.

02:19:42.120 Years later.

02:19:43.120 How you doing, Sammy?

02:19:45.120 How's this?

02:19:46.120 How's that?

02:19:47.120 How's that?

02:19:48.120 I mean, they don't have to do that.

02:19:51.120 I know we went back and forth talking about trying to make this work.

02:19:54.120 You know, thank you for making this work and being willing to.

02:19:57.120 We pretty much went through every question that we had.

02:20:00.120 I mean, there was no holding back on the question.

02:20:01.120 So, you were willing to be asked any of the questions.

02:20:04.120 Sammy, again, thank you for making the time to come out and be a guest on Valuetainment.

02:20:09.120 Appreciate you.

02:20:10.120 It's my pleasure.

02:20:11.120 You've been a pleasure, too.

02:20:12.120 Thanks, everybody, for listening.

02:20:14.120 And by the way, if you haven't already subscribed to Valuetainment on iTunes, please do so.

02:20:18.120 Give us a five-star.

02:20:20.120 Write a review if you haven't already.

02:20:21.120 And if you have any questions for me that you may have, you can always find me on Snapchat,

02:20:25.120 Instagram, Facebook, or YouTube.

02:20:27.120 Just search my name, Patrick David.

02:20:29.120 And I actually do respond back when you snap me or send me a message on Instagram.

02:20:34.120 With that being said, have a great day today.

02:20:36.120 Take care, everybody.

02:20:37.120 Bye-bye.

02:20:38.120 Bye-bye.

Valuetainment - October 18, 2019

Valuetainment Exclusive： Sammy ＂The Bull＂ Gravano

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