Valuetainment - July 09, 2021


What Burgers, Ferraris and Porn Teaches us About Evolution - Gad Saad


Episode Stats

Length

1 hour and 20 minutes

Words per Minute

188.32014

Word Count

15,126

Sentence Count

1,018

Misogynist Sentences

33

Hate Speech Sentences

62


Summary


Transcript

00:00:00.120 We've been parasitized by so much wokeism that now companies have, in many cases, lost focus of their main mission.
00:00:07.840 How does a woman respond to infidelity?
00:00:10.100 Oftentimes people who hate evolutionary theory will get upset because they think that if you explain something scientifically,
00:00:16.420 this means that you are justifying it or condoning it.
00:00:19.080 A lot of the activists will argue heterosexuality is learned, whereas homosexuality is innate.
00:00:26.960 Now that is insane.
00:00:27.980 What infectious ideas today do you feel are creating a lot of momentum?
00:00:32.600 Most people are cognitive misers, meaning that they are intellectually lazy.
00:00:36.880 If I want to truly find out whether the Democrats were the racist ones or not,
00:00:41.620 well, that's going to have to force me to actually do some work.
00:00:43.960 Why don't I just believe Uncle Biden who tells me that, no, it's the Republicans that are the KKK white supremacists,
00:00:50.280 and that's good enough for me.
00:00:51.320 Oftentimes what people say in their imbecilic, myopic way, they think that the attack on freedom only comes from the government.
00:00:59.420 The greatest danger comes from creating a society where we will self-censor.
00:01:04.740 So, gang, I want to prepare you for this because get ready to have a mental workout in the next 60 to 90 minutes with my guest today,
00:01:15.800 Ghat Saad, who has written many books.
00:01:20.160 Let me just kind of give you a background.
00:01:21.380 I'm a professor, evolutionary behavioral scientist, author, wrote a book, which I love, The Consuming Instinct,
00:01:28.980 What Juicy Burgers, Ferraris, Pornography, and Gift-Giving Reveals About Human Nature,
00:01:35.100 which we'll get into as well as this recent book that just came out October 6th of 2020, last year,
00:01:41.760 The Parasitic Mind, How Infectious Ideas Are Killing Common Sense.
00:01:47.360 And then we'll talk about critical race theory.
00:01:49.260 We're probably going to get into identity politics, and we'll get into a few other topics.
00:01:52.200 But, Ghat, thank you so much for making time for being a guest on The Attainment.
00:01:56.100 Oh, thank you so much, Patrick.
00:01:57.560 What a pleasure to be with you.
00:01:58.560 When I announced that I was coming on your show, I got a lot of excitement.
00:02:02.020 I must shamefully admit that I wasn't very familiar with your show.
00:02:06.160 Now I've corrected that mistake.
00:02:08.720 Well, I'm glad to have you.
00:02:10.020 Our audience is also very excited to hear from you.
00:02:13.720 So let's get right into it, if you don't mind, for some of the folks that maybe don't know you,
00:02:18.680 they haven't seen your content.
00:02:19.820 You've got tens of millions of views online.
00:02:21.920 But for those that don't know, would you mind taking a minute and giving us your background?
00:02:25.740 Sure.
00:02:26.100 So, I mean, my personal background or professional one?
00:02:28.300 Well, personal, where you're from, and then professional.
00:02:30.360 Yeah.
00:02:30.620 So personal, I was born in Beirut, Lebanon in the 60s.
00:02:34.800 We were part of the last group of Lebanese Jews who had steadfastly refused to read the
00:02:41.460 signs of the looming dangers.
00:02:43.900 And so we were in Lebanon in the mid-70s when the Lebanese Civil War broke out.
00:02:48.060 We were there the first year.
00:02:49.820 All future butchering is always measured against the benchmark of how brutal the Lebanese Civil
00:02:54.920 War was.
00:02:55.880 And I could tell you, as an 11-year-old child, I could attest to how brutal it was.
00:02:59.780 And we were able, luckily, to escape after that first year of the war, moved to Montreal,
00:03:06.280 Canada.
00:03:06.900 And that's where my adventure in the West began.
00:03:12.700 Professionally, my scientific work is at the intersection of evolutionary biology and evolutionary
00:03:18.480 psychology and consumer behavior.
00:03:20.160 So I look at what are the fundamental biological drivers that make us the consumers that we
00:03:25.680 are.
00:03:26.000 But of course, I define consumption very broadly.
00:03:28.160 It's not just consuming Coca-Cola and posting pictures on Instagram.
00:03:32.380 We consume religion.
00:03:33.540 We consume friendships.
00:03:34.660 We consume, you know, all literature.
00:03:37.700 And so everything is consumatory.
00:03:39.180 I look at the biological underpinnings of that consumatory nature.
00:03:43.660 What inspired you and what got you to say, I want to learn more about this stuff?
00:03:47.780 Oh, yeah.
00:03:48.240 Thank you.
00:03:48.720 Great question.
00:03:49.240 So first semester as a doctoral student at Cornell University, 1990.
00:03:54.600 I can't believe that it's almost, well, it's more than 30 years ago.
00:03:57.220 So I had taken a course, an advanced social psychology course with a professor by the name
00:04:02.860 of Dennis Regan.
00:04:04.340 And about halfway through the course, he assigned a book called Homicide, which was a book looking
00:04:09.860 at patterns of criminality from an evolutionary perspective.
00:04:13.340 And so I can give you a few examples if you'd like, but that's when I was bitten by the bug.
00:04:19.600 So, for example, if I told you, Patrick, let's see if you can guess this.
00:04:23.160 Let's see if you are a budding evolutionary psychologist.
00:04:25.820 If I told you what is the number one predictor of all possible predictors that can help us
00:04:32.400 understand whether a child is going to be abused.
00:04:35.640 So, for example, you could say if he's born on the wrong side of the tracks.
00:04:39.720 So give me your best possible predictor, and then I'll give you the correct evolutionary
00:04:44.400 one so that you get a sense of how powerful evolutionary thinking is and understanding
00:04:48.820 human phenomena.
00:04:49.380 Number one predictor, a lack of father figure?
00:04:52.860 I mean, that's a great one, and I'm sure it has an effect, but I'll just jump to the
00:04:57.120 actual answer.
00:04:58.200 The number one predictor is if there is a step-parent in the house, and the idea being
00:05:05.740 that humans are a bi-parental species, meaning both men and women invest heavily in their
00:05:10.560 children, and therefore most people, whether they do it consciously or not, are going to
00:05:16.560 exhibit differential investment in their biological children and their step-children.
00:05:22.380 So, for example, if you think about Cinderella, well, the story of Cinderella is rooted in evolution
00:05:28.180 principles, right?
00:05:29.160 It's the evil stepmother, but she's only evil to the stepdaughter.
00:05:32.720 She's not evil dispositionally also to her biological children, and there are some very
00:05:37.900 clear biological reasons why people would exhibit that penchant to be less investing in their
00:05:45.120 stepchildren.
00:05:46.200 I'll give you one other quick example.
00:05:47.840 Who is the number one most dangerous person in a woman's life, irrespective of which culture
00:05:53.040 she comes from?
00:05:53.980 Well, it turns out, not surprisingly, it's not the guy who's hiding in the tree.
00:05:57.460 You know, a serial killer.
00:05:59.080 It's usually her long-term partner, her male partner, who typically, when he is triggered
00:06:05.160 into a homicidal rage, is because of either realized or suspected infidelity.
00:06:10.760 Now, why would men be so triggered by that possibility?
00:06:14.220 Because since we are a bi-parental species, I don't want to spend 18, 20, 25 years raising
00:06:20.640 the kid of the sexy gardener who used to come and, you know, trim our bushes.
00:06:25.160 Therefore, I become, when I say I, I mean prototypical male.
00:06:29.600 Both you and I, Patrick, are descendants of ancestors who really cared that their women
00:06:34.140 hopefully don't stray.
00:06:35.940 So because of paternity uncertainty, men have evolved the cognitive, emotional, and behavioral
00:06:41.480 patterns that create sexual territoriality.
00:06:44.740 And so when I saw the explanatory power of evolutionary thinking, I had my aha moment.
00:06:50.920 So I thought I would apply evolution to study consumer behavior.
00:06:54.500 Yeah, that's fascinating when you're talking about that.
00:06:56.880 So let's go to the first book because, I mean, I got some questions for you just in regards
00:07:00.940 to your first book.
00:07:01.780 And then we'll get into the second one as well.
00:07:03.880 So the consuming instinct, what juicy burgers, Ferrari's pornography and gift giving reveal
00:07:12.220 about human nature, when you wrote this 10 years ago, exactly 10 years ago, last month,
00:07:17.520 June of 2011, which has been translated to Korean and Turkish, interesting to have been
00:07:22.220 translated to Korean and Turkish.
00:07:24.680 What's the book about?
00:07:26.060 And what can you tell us, what can you tell us about the consuming instinct about juicy
00:07:30.380 burgers, Ferrari's pornography and gift giving?
00:07:32.800 Right.
00:07:33.020 So the reason why I chose those four examples, there's a backstory to it.
00:07:36.980 So I'll explain in a second.
00:07:38.100 Apparently speaking, the book is basically arguing, contrary to all of the social sciences,
00:07:43.980 which presume that what makes us different from other animals is that we transcend our
00:07:49.800 biology, right?
00:07:50.860 So typically social scientists think, well, sure, evolution explains the behavior of the
00:07:55.140 mosquito and your dog and the giraffe.
00:07:57.380 But don't you dare, Dr. Saad, apply the same principles to explain human behavior, let alone
00:08:01.840 consumer behavior.
00:08:02.920 Well, that's completely silly.
00:08:03.940 When I put on my hat as a consumer, my hormones don't cease to matter.
00:08:08.900 My biology doesn't cease to matter.
00:08:10.540 So in a very general way, what the consuming instinct is about is how to apply biological
00:08:16.160 thinking to understand why we do the things that we do when we put on our hats as consumers.
00:08:21.500 Now, why did I pick juicy burgers, pornography, gift giving, and so on?
00:08:25.800 Well, because I argue that there are four fundamental Darwinian modules that drive our behavior.
00:08:32.180 There is the survival module, right?
00:08:35.120 So everything that's related to our survival instinct.
00:08:37.740 So the juicy burger example speaks to that because we've evolved the gustatory preferences
00:08:43.120 to prefer some juicy manifestation rather than raw celery, right?
00:08:49.020 Patrick and I might disagree about the type of fatty foods we prefer.
00:08:53.320 I might prefer a juicy steak.
00:08:55.000 You may prefer a fatty chocolate mousse.
00:08:58.360 But we both probably prefer some fatty food over, you know, raw carrots, precisely because
00:09:03.860 your ancestors and mine evolved in an environment of caloric scarcity, caloric uncertainty.
00:09:08.780 Therefore, our taste buds have evolved to deal with that evolutionary problem.
00:09:13.000 So that's juicy burgers.
00:09:14.720 Pornography refers to the Sega module, which is reproduction.
00:09:17.920 So many of the things that you and I do, and everyone else does, is precisely linked to
00:09:23.420 the fact that we are a sexually reproducing species.
00:09:25.560 So in the same way that the peacock's tail evolved so that he can impress the peahens into saying,
00:09:31.400 look, despite the fact that I've got this very burdensome tail, I'm still alive.
00:09:35.800 You should pick me.
00:09:36.660 I'm the right mate for you.
00:09:38.160 Well, in the human context, my Maserati becomes my peacock's tail.
00:09:42.740 So that explains a lot of the, you know, and the reason why we're attracted to pornography
00:09:48.500 is because it titillates our computational systems in our brain for sexual variety.
00:09:53.420 You mean I can get on the internet now and there are 10,000 beautiful nubile women that
00:09:59.020 are ready to, quote, mate with me virtually?
00:10:01.520 Well, it's very easy for then the brain to be hijacked by this alluring visual stimulus.
00:10:06.820 Then the other two basically refer to two other modules.
00:10:11.300 Kin selection explain, why would I ever jump into the river to save three brothers?
00:10:16.400 Well, the reason would be because my three brothers on average share half their genes with
00:10:21.160 me. So if I jump into the river and save them, and even if I die, it makes perfect evolutionary
00:10:25.860 sense to do so.
00:10:27.180 So a lot of gift giving rituals that you and I engage in with one another, if let's say
00:10:31.360 you're my brother, speak to that kin-based altruism.
00:10:35.680 And then finally, reciprocal altruism refers to, well, okay, I would jump into the river to
00:10:41.000 save my three brothers, but why would I jump into the river to save Patrick?
00:10:44.860 He's not my brother.
00:10:45.820 I mean, my literal genetic brother, but in this case, maybe Patrick is a very good friend
00:10:51.080 and he will reciprocate.
00:10:53.220 Today, he's drowning in the river, but tomorrow he might reciprocate and protect me if I come
00:11:00.140 under harm.
00:11:01.460 So what I basically argue is that much of what we do as consumers can be traced back to one
00:11:06.740 of those four key Darwinian modules, and hence that subtitle.
00:11:09.960 I hope it wasn't too long-winded.
00:11:11.320 I love that.
00:11:12.000 I love that.
00:11:12.440 So you know, I don't know if you've heard, probably you've heard this question.
00:11:14.960 You're on a boat.
00:11:16.260 You got three people on.
00:11:17.400 You can only save one.
00:11:19.200 It's your mom, your child, or your wife.
00:11:23.600 Who do you save?
00:11:24.820 Have you looked this one up or no?
00:11:26.500 Have you, okay.
00:11:27.140 Well, it's funny that you say this because actually there is an exact same story to the
00:11:32.540 guy, the evolutionary scientist who was developing that framework.
00:11:37.420 It was based on, you know, I would jump into the river to save four brothers.
00:11:41.420 So who would I save?
00:11:42.860 I guess I'd have to do the evolutionary calculus.
00:11:45.060 Well, it would depend on whether you ask me this when I got married, if I'm 22 years
00:11:50.320 old, or if my wife is post-menopausal, right?
00:11:53.500 Because the reproductive, sorry, it's going to sound cow.
00:11:58.340 Calculating.
00:11:58.900 The reproductive benefits of saving her depends on where she is in her reproductive window.
00:12:05.620 So it's a complicated story.
00:12:07.120 But the fact that you ask this exactly speaks to the type of evolutionary calculus calculations
00:12:12.380 that we go through.
00:12:13.060 So it depends on what phase of your life you're in.
00:12:16.300 So earlier on, it would be your wife.
00:12:18.700 Later on, it may be your kid.
00:12:20.940 Exactly.
00:12:21.580 And by the way, your kid carries more weight for you or less, depending on how old they
00:12:29.480 are.
00:12:29.680 So for example, in societies where they have practiced infanticide, infanticide is the recurring
00:12:35.920 killing of children, they usually will kill the last born.
00:12:40.920 Because the last born, so if I've already invested 17 years in raising a child, right?
00:12:47.460 And they are about to enter the reproductive window of their life trajectory, then I don't
00:12:54.060 want to kill them, right?
00:12:55.200 Because, I mean, don't forget that I also extend my genes through my children having children,
00:13:01.500 right?
00:13:01.620 Because when my children have children, I am linked to them one quarter of their genes,
00:13:05.900 right?
00:13:06.060 So this is called inclusive fitness.
00:13:07.660 So I could propagate my genes either directly, I have children, or by investing in my kin.
00:13:15.420 And therefore, in cultures where you have infanticide, and typically the reason why you have infanticide
00:13:21.280 is because you realize that you don't have the necessary resources to see them through to
00:13:26.180 maturation.
00:13:27.260 And so you make the very cold calculation of ending, if you want, their life.
00:13:31.840 Well, you do so if they're two months old, you don't do it to a 17-year-old who's about
00:13:36.300 to be reproductively viable themselves.
00:13:39.000 Yeah.
00:13:39.340 So when I asked this question of other people, by the way, this was an interview question.
00:13:43.320 So it was trying to figure out where a person stood.
00:13:46.360 And it would many times give a cultural answer.
00:13:49.980 Because Latinos, maybe they would choose their mom because of the connection with mom.
00:13:54.960 You know, Americans would choose their, you know, wife.
00:13:58.340 And you have, you know, different Asian that would choose their child because it's future.
00:14:03.440 You know, it's very interesting.
00:14:04.800 But it's definitely always starts a conversation about what direction to go with this.
00:14:08.580 So let's go back to what you were.
00:14:09.980 Go ahead.
00:14:10.900 Forgive me for interrupting you, Patrick, because what you just said has such an implication for
00:14:16.260 a segue.
00:14:16.560 Yes, you're right that there are cultural differences.
00:14:20.500 But underneath these cultural differences, there are some consistent human universals.
00:14:25.100 So speaking about children.
00:14:27.540 So when a child is born, irrespective of which culture you come from, typically people will
00:14:33.800 say, oh, my God, the child looks exactly like the father.
00:14:37.960 And you're much more likely to say so if you are from the mother's family, because you're
00:14:43.720 trying to convince the mother's family that she didn't stray from the relationship.
00:14:50.380 Oh, my.
00:14:51.600 So since you went over there, okay, infidelity men, infidelity women, you know, how does man
00:14:59.160 respond to it differently than a woman responds to infidelity?
00:15:03.040 Great question.
00:15:03.980 So there is some fantastic research that was done back in the early 1990s, where they asked
00:15:10.520 men and women to imagine their partner either engaging in sexual infidelity or romantic
00:15:16.140 infidelity.
00:15:16.860 Romantic infidelity, your husband always has lunch with this wonderful colleague of his.
00:15:22.940 They share their dreams.
00:15:24.120 She understands his humor.
00:15:25.780 So there's no sex.
00:15:26.820 It's all platonic.
00:15:27.860 But there's an emotional bond that is forming.
00:15:30.300 Well, guess what happens?
00:15:31.200 Because men respond much more harshly to sexual infidelity.
00:15:35.420 Women respond a lot more harshly to emotional infidelity.
00:15:39.560 Why?
00:15:40.240 Because, again, men are responding to the threat of paternity uncertainty.
00:15:44.460 Women are responding to the threat of you removing your investment from the relationship.
00:15:50.620 And it turns out that it's a much bigger predictor of me packing my bags and leaving you if I develop
00:15:56.840 an emotional bond with another woman rather than just a sexual dalliance.
00:16:00.680 This is why men, oftentimes, in a very clumsy way, when they are caught cheating one time
00:16:08.480 at a conference somewhere, they'll say, she meant nothing to me.
00:16:12.340 It was a one-time thing.
00:16:14.120 What they are effectively doing is speaking to that evolutionary concern, which is, I could
00:16:18.700 completely decouple my investment in you from the fact that I just had a desire for sexual
00:16:24.640 variety.
00:16:25.180 Now, by the way, when I explain these things, oftentimes people who hate evolutionary theory
00:16:29.860 will get upset because they think that if you explain something scientifically, this means
00:16:34.700 that you are justifying it or condoning it.
00:16:37.000 And I'm, of course, doing no such thing, right?
00:16:39.240 If you're studying cancer, that doesn't mean that you are for cancer.
00:16:43.060 It doesn't mean that you are justifying and condoning cancer.
00:16:45.560 It means that you're studying cancer.
00:16:47.340 So if you want to understand all sorts of ugly things that people do, you have to study
00:16:52.480 them properly.
00:16:53.120 And that's why I love evolution so much.
00:16:55.180 What a thing to study, infidelity on how women respond to it versus men.
00:16:59.260 So this is a channel, a lot of our audience, they're entrepreneurs, business owners, sales,
00:17:04.440 they're executives, they're running.
00:17:05.860 Now, obviously, we've got bodybuilders, we have mob, we have politics, we have different
00:17:10.300 things that we cover, but specifically, it's business.
00:17:13.280 Marketing.
00:17:13.900 So you just said consuming instinct, what Juicy Burgers, Ferrars, pornography, and gift giving
00:17:18.840 reveals about human nature, right?
00:17:20.220 So a company's built their brand on having a certain set of audience.
00:17:24.680 That's who they draw.
00:17:25.820 Let's just say, pick a product.
00:17:28.040 You know, if you got Fox News, Republicans, CNN, Democrats, MSNBC, far left, ESPN, sports,
00:17:36.840 you know, you go to Yahoo Horoscope, certain, anyways, you go to all these different places.
00:17:41.400 How do you see this?
00:17:43.780 Because a company as big as Victoria's Secret, who's known who their customer is for the longest
00:17:48.960 time, and who buys their stuff, who to appeal to, how do you view and justify a company that
00:17:56.220 big with a CEO to say, look, we're going to go in a completely different direction.
00:18:00.000 We're not going to have our, you know, the, what do you call it, their angels anymore that
00:18:04.460 you see and all this stuff, the girls.
00:18:06.420 Now we're going to go, we're going to get activists.
00:18:08.400 We're going to go on a complete different angle.
00:18:10.500 We're not going to go to that route.
00:18:12.140 How do you justify to say, yeah, they're doing the right thing.
00:18:14.600 They're going the right direction versus saying they're about to pay a price for it.
00:18:17.880 Well, there are going to pay, they are going to pay a price for it.
00:18:21.600 And so one of the things that I do in my, say, when I'm teaching MBA classes and I'm doing
00:18:26.160 all this evolutionary stuff, I want to kind of assuage the worry of my students because
00:18:31.780 they feel as though they've wrongly fallen into the wrong class, some biology class,
00:18:36.220 rather than some MBA course of consumer behavior.
00:18:38.400 And I tell them, you know, be patient because it's all going to come together.
00:18:42.480 I'm teaching you now the universal explanations for human behavior, but then I will give you
00:18:48.300 some very practical implications in marketing.
00:18:51.520 So, and so to address your question, let me give one such example.
00:18:55.060 So if you look at romance novels, romance novels are almost exclusively read by women all
00:19:00.480 around the world.
00:19:01.100 There is, there's not a single culture where that phenomenon is reversed.
00:19:05.020 So if I want to study female preferences, I could look at the archetype of the male hero
00:19:13.960 in a romance novel to see what, what is it that women fantasize about when they are consuming
00:19:19.200 such a product.
00:19:19.820 And it turns out that it's always the exact same guy.
00:19:21.940 It's as if it's plagiarized across every single romance novel that's ever been written,
00:19:26.140 Patrick.
00:19:26.500 So what is he?
00:19:27.340 He's tall.
00:19:28.120 He is socially dominant.
00:19:30.100 He is a count, meaning a prince and a neurosurgeon.
00:19:33.860 He is reckless and a risk taker.
00:19:36.640 He wrestles alligators on his six pack, but he could only be tamed by the love of this one
00:19:41.340 good, good woman.
00:19:42.440 I just shaved, I just saved you the, the, the heartache or, or the effort of having to read
00:19:48.140 every romance novel that's ever been written.
00:19:50.000 I should have never read Fifty Shades of Grey.
00:19:51.480 Exactly.
00:19:52.680 So now let's, so that's my, my next point now is going to bring home the, the, the question
00:19:58.120 that you asked.
00:19:58.980 So a few years ago, a company, I don't remember their name, uh, was a progressive company.
00:20:03.740 They wanted to create a new line of romance novels that extricated themselves from this
00:20:09.140 archetypal view of the toxic masculine man.
00:20:13.460 And so they created a new line where the guy, you know, is sensitive.
00:20:17.900 He cries all the time.
00:20:18.960 He sucks his thumb.
00:20:19.780 He watches Bridget Jones' diary.
00:20:21.900 Well, guess what happened?
00:20:23.380 The consumers in this case called women said, sorry, not interested.
00:20:28.040 That's not what I fantasize about when I'm trying to escape in a romance novel.
00:20:31.900 So if you do things as a company that violate fundamental tenets of human nature, the market
00:20:40.180 has a very clever way of correcting your misconception.
00:20:44.240 So I always tell my students, uh, ultimately a good marketer is one who understands human nature,
00:20:49.620 whether they've taken my courses or not.
00:20:51.500 So that's the bottom line.
00:20:52.340 It's interesting.
00:20:53.200 You say that.
00:20:53.960 So I, it took me five, I took five years to write a fiction book.
00:20:57.560 Okay.
00:20:58.460 It's a young adults fiction book.
00:20:59.920 And it's, you know, we brought a lot of consultants in.
00:21:03.680 We went through a lot of different revisions back and forth.
00:21:05.980 And once we got to sitting down with the publisher and the publisher said, your book has to be
00:21:11.540 appealing to women, young adults, the audience who reads young adults, 70% are going to be
00:21:17.540 this age to this age.
00:21:19.020 If you can appeal to them, you're going to be able to get a book that's going to sell.
00:21:23.100 If you don't, it's not going to work out.
00:21:24.180 So even the marketers, the sellers, the publishers sit there and say, yeah, we're not interested
00:21:29.380 in that.
00:21:29.760 It's not a business model that's going to work.
00:21:31.280 So to you, based on what you're saying right now, because here's how I process it.
00:21:37.020 I process it as if you go read any of the old marketing books, you know, which ones I'm
00:21:41.480 talking about, you know, there's a, uh, a Kellogg and, you know, you go through some of these
00:21:46.240 that everyone reads at all MBA, you know, business schools, you know, you'll see certain
00:21:51.000 approaches on how to get colors, story, marketing, pitch, all that stuff.
00:21:56.140 But it looks like many of these companies are getting away.
00:21:59.420 Maybe not all of them.
00:22:00.180 A lot of them are getting away from sex, drugs, rock and roll, you know, that whole thing.
00:22:04.160 The sex, drugs and rock and roll still sell today.
00:22:07.920 I mean, they do, uh, certainly the sex part.
00:22:10.560 So for example, if I'm trying to sell beauty products, uh, putting a, for an endorser who has
00:22:16.620 facial symmetry is going to work because facial symmetry is a marker of good phenotypic
00:22:23.320 quality.
00:22:24.040 It means that you haven't been exposed to the method, right?
00:22:26.880 So to be beautiful is to be symmetric.
00:22:29.220 So whether I am selling a cosmetic line in Romania or Bolivia or Nigeria, people in all
00:22:35.320 those countries, irrespective of the race they come from, irrespective of the ethnic group
00:22:39.360 and so on, they're all going to agree as to who is beautiful.
00:22:42.640 I think the problem, and maybe that's what you're alluding to is that now we've been
00:22:46.320 parasitized to use a term from my latest book.
00:22:50.120 We've been parasitized by so much wokeism that now companies have in many cases lost
00:22:55.560 focus of their main mission, right?
00:22:57.920 Now it is no longer enough to provide consumers with a product that they need without harming
00:23:03.760 some third party, let's say the environment.
00:23:06.160 Now I need to appear as though I am socially engaged, that I am fighting against social injustice.
00:23:12.220 Think of the Gillette ad a few years ago.
00:23:14.680 I don't know if you remember it, Patrick, where they were sort of down talking to all
00:23:18.820 men, stop being toxic masculine men.
00:23:22.800 Well, I don't want Gillette razor company to be lecturing me and patronizing me about how
00:23:29.660 to be a better man.
00:23:30.540 Why don't you shut your mouth and just sell me a good razor and I'll worry about demoralizing
00:23:36.360 at home.
00:23:36.720 So in my view, I think it's a mistake for companies to be engaging in all of this blue
00:23:42.220 haired wokeism.
00:23:43.740 Why do people fall for you?
00:23:45.080 I mean, you look at so many people like, for example, when Nike announced they're going
00:23:50.060 with Kaepernick, you know, the year and a half ago, two years ago, I don't know if you
00:23:53.000 remember that.
00:23:53.400 We're like, hey, here's the direction we're going to be going.
00:23:55.280 And they did.
00:23:56.320 And they would say, I will never buy another Nike ever again.
00:23:59.620 And then Nike just announces, we have our biggest quarterly profits, you know.
00:24:02.960 And then the other side says, they were right.
00:24:06.500 The marketing team knew what they were talking about.
00:24:08.760 And folks are like, well, I guess we didn't know what we were talking about.
00:24:11.840 So once they show the data, some people are saying it's kind of good to take a position
00:24:16.360 today versus before a lot of people played it neutral.
00:24:19.020 As you were speaking, I brought out a prop.
00:24:22.040 Let me explain what it is.
00:24:22.920 It's a memory stick.
00:24:24.140 But for a second, pretend that it is the cork of a wine bottle.
00:24:27.860 Okay.
00:24:27.980 In Arabic, there's an expression that says getting drunk simply by smelling the cork
00:24:35.340 bottle, which means what, basically?
00:24:37.000 It means that I am so weak that it doesn't take me to drink the whole bottle to get drunk.
00:24:43.880 I just need to take a whiff of the cork bottle and I'm already dizzy with drunkenness, right?
00:24:48.820 So Kaepernick is exactly that, right?
00:24:51.380 For most people who are too imbecilic to kind of understand the greater issues, he just seems
00:24:57.260 as though he's fighting for justice.
00:24:59.860 So these are the people who are getting drunk by the smell of the cork.
00:25:03.940 But for most people, I think, and there's actually been a study that has tried to look
00:25:08.020 at, does wokeism work in terms of the share, you know, does it increase the share price
00:25:15.540 of the company?
00:25:16.580 And the results certainly don't support that, that being woke, becoming more blue-haired in
00:25:21.600 your engagement doesn't lead to higher share prices.
00:25:24.860 So yes, some people will succumb to that kind of virtue signaling, but I think most consumers
00:25:31.400 are smart enough to understand when it's just empty, virtuous signaling.
00:25:36.180 Is the whole idea about, you know, who cares about controversy?
00:25:39.920 As long as people are talking about it, you're winning.
00:25:41.720 You know, the whole thing about, you know, negative media attention is still, you know,
00:25:45.980 marketing is marketing, doesn't matter whether it's positive or negative.
00:25:48.720 Do you agree and agree with that?
00:25:51.100 I mean, yes, in the sense that we, to bring it back to evolution, we've evolved to pay
00:25:57.020 a lot more attention to negative information than to positive one.
00:26:02.060 And for obvious, you know, evolutionary adaptive reasons.
00:26:05.540 And so once you have some controversy that is laden with some negativity, even if it's false,
00:26:12.240 by the way, you've probably heard the old story about a falsehood can travel 10 times
00:26:18.040 around the world before it is, you know, corrected, well, that's, yeah, exactly.
00:26:22.460 Right.
00:26:22.700 And so, so yes, I do believe that controversy works.
00:26:26.140 By the way, I know a lot of colleagues of mine who were completely obscure in academia.
00:26:30.920 I mean, they, they were, they never published anything.
00:26:34.260 They, they were hardly at good schools.
00:26:36.300 They were very, very obscure D level academics who then faced some controversy and suddenly were
00:26:42.920 catapulted to the front lines.
00:26:45.380 And so, yes, I completely agree that controversy sells.
00:26:49.040 I mean, look at Jordan Peterson, right?
00:26:51.980 Well, I don't, I wouldn't put him in the D list, by the way.
00:26:54.600 He's not, he's not a D list.
00:26:55.820 No, no, no.
00:26:56.180 We, he's the only guy we've ever had on four times.
00:26:58.640 Jordan Peterson's the only guy we've interviewed four different times.
00:27:02.140 And I had him at our event.
00:27:03.660 Should I be offended that you've invited him four times before going to Dr.
00:27:08.440 Sat for the first time, one could be offended, but I should be magnanimous and not be offended.
00:27:13.440 As an evolutionary behavioral scientist today, we're going to find out if we can invite you
00:27:17.820 back for a second time, which at this pace we're going, you're definitely being invited
00:27:21.880 back, but, but you know, we had him on, we had him at an event two years ago.
00:27:26.340 I had president Bush, Kobe Bryant, Jordan Peterson, Billy being at an event with 7,000
00:27:30.360 people and MGM.
00:27:31.440 And I interviewed Jordan Peterson.
00:27:32.880 That was exactly a month before he went away and he was kind of dealing with his own
00:27:37.760 personal issues.
00:27:38.460 But look at Jordan Peterson.
00:27:40.080 He faces off against what the university wanted to do.
00:27:42.840 He comes out and says, this is the stand I'm taking.
00:27:44.680 Boom.
00:27:44.920 Next thing, you know, he takes off, you know, look at Trump comes out and says, Hey, if
00:27:49.160 you remember the 2015, 2016, a Republican side, day one, everybody thought Scott Walker
00:27:54.440 and Jeb Bush were going to win it.
00:27:56.380 I don't know if you remember Scott Walker, like the main Wisconsin superstar.
00:28:00.660 This is presidential Jeb Bush day one, $140 million.
00:28:04.380 Trump comes out and says, they're sending them criminals, rapists, drugs, all this other
00:28:08.800 stuff.
00:28:09.060 And next, you know, he takes off.
00:28:10.360 So, you know, there's a, there's a bit of it where you're noticing that become a, even
00:28:14.700 in boxing today, look at the Paul brothers, look at Logan and Jake Paul, how they're using
00:28:19.480 controversy to bring eyeballs to themselves and how effective it is.
00:28:23.780 It's more than just controversy.
00:28:25.640 If I, if I may interject Patrick, I think people respect those who are not fence sitters.
00:28:31.700 I always remind people, don't be a fence sitter, right?
00:28:35.480 If I were to ask you who are the top five people that you admire most in the world, I'm willing
00:28:40.840 to bet none of them are fence sitters.
00:28:42.860 Why?
00:28:43.200 Because it takes courage to take position.
00:28:45.200 Whether you like Trump or not, he's not a fence sitter.
00:28:48.340 Whether you like Jordan Peterson or not, he's a principled man.
00:28:52.100 Whether you like or not got sad, I go after everything and everybody.
00:28:56.440 I don't care.
00:28:57.080 I don't modulate the pursuit of truth to not hurt someone's feeling.
00:29:01.000 That's why in chapter eight, and I guess we'll talk about it later in chapter eight
00:29:04.020 of my latest book, I talk about activate your inner honey badger.
00:29:07.320 Why do I say that?
00:29:08.040 Because the honey badger is an animal, the size of a small dog.
00:29:12.840 And yet it is more, you know, ferocious.
00:29:15.280 It's so ferocious that it could withstand the attack of six adult lions.
00:29:18.820 Why does it do it?
00:29:19.600 Because it's intimidating as hell.
00:29:20.960 So be a honey badger.
00:29:23.480 So as an evolutionary behavioral scientist, you're looking at ways we behave, respond,
00:29:31.300 marketing, a lot of the things that you covered here yourself.
00:29:33.740 And you speak to a lot of business schools, to a lot of, you know, folks who are trying
00:29:37.140 to get their MBAs.
00:29:38.460 What are your rules?
00:29:39.560 I've read a lot of books on marketing.
00:29:41.260 People have different kind of angles on how to take it, how not to take it.
00:29:44.640 What have you noticed being the formula great marketers have used historically?
00:29:49.220 What is it?
00:29:49.780 Yeah, I mean, there are several.
00:29:51.700 So let me give you one that kind of continues what I was talking about earlier about understanding
00:29:55.980 human nature.
00:29:57.360 If you're a social scientist, you typically believe that the human mind, we are born tabula
00:30:02.960 rasa, empty minds.
00:30:04.640 And it is only socialization that makes you who you are.
00:30:07.860 So why do men prefer certain types of women?
00:30:10.680 Well, it's because they learned it from Oprah and Elle magazine.
00:30:14.100 Why do women prefer certain types of guys?
00:30:16.900 Oh, it's because they saw it in Hollywood.
00:30:18.900 So that perspective presumes that the mind of the consumer is infinitely malleable.
00:30:25.980 I, as the smart company, can get the consumer to want and like anything that I teach them
00:30:32.740 to want and like.
00:30:33.500 And I think that is a grossly incorrect position because the genes, as E.O.
00:30:39.600 Wilson, the Harvard biologist said, the genes always hold culture on a leash.
00:30:45.300 So in other words, culture can, can cause you and I to have slightly different food preferences,
00:30:51.300 but across all cultures, people prefer more rich food than raw, you know, raw celery.
00:31:00.320 So you, if you are a marketer, you always have to recognize the interplay between culture
00:31:07.060 and genes.
00:31:07.840 And if you create products that are antithetical to human nature, the market will quickly let
00:31:14.260 you know that you are an idiot.
00:31:16.480 So let me give you another example.
00:31:17.980 McDonald's and all of the other companies for fast food companies that have done well
00:31:23.920 around the world, they've done well, not because they have Justin Timberlake singing
00:31:28.240 a jingle, although that certainly helps because it creates top of mind awareness, but they've
00:31:33.260 done very well because they offer something to my gustatory preferences that I don't need
00:31:38.220 to be taught to prefer.
00:31:39.420 I don't need to teach my young child that fatty, juicy French fries is something that they
00:31:45.700 should respond positively to.
00:31:47.980 Here's a, here's a thought experiment.
00:31:49.520 I could give you $10 billion advertising budget to sell you grass juice at McDonald's and all
00:31:57.280 of the celebrity endorsers to promote it.
00:32:00.120 And it's never going to take off because my gustatory preferences and yours don't like
00:32:04.840 raw grass juice.
00:32:06.360 So the main lesson from anything that I teach in my MBA courses is there is no way to understand
00:32:12.560 the consumer without an understanding of the fundamental drivers that drive consumer behavior.
00:32:17.960 And that's rooted in our biology.
00:32:19.780 It's not rooted in culture.
00:32:21.160 It's not rooted in religion.
00:32:22.300 It's not rooted in Oprah.
00:32:23.980 Okay.
00:32:24.360 So, so fantastic.
00:32:25.620 So let's go a little bit deeper with that.
00:32:27.980 So how much of what I like, what you like is what you like versus what's being sold to
00:32:34.100 us.
00:32:34.420 For example, let me go a little deeper.
00:32:36.620 No matter how many skinny models I saw on Calvin Klein, I was never turned on by them.
00:32:41.660 Right.
00:32:42.200 You know what I'm saying?
00:32:42.720 So I saw me, this is what you're supposed to look like, like a Zoolander looking.
00:32:47.040 You're, you know, looking like it never did nothing to me.
00:32:50.100 I was almost like, can I get you a double Whopper right now?
00:32:53.160 Go eat a Big Mac.
00:32:54.440 Please eat some pizza and put some weight on your 95 pounds.
00:32:57.980 You look like you're about to break.
00:32:59.800 If I even touch you, like I'm worried about touching you here.
00:33:02.060 Right.
00:33:02.300 So how much of it is us believing in the dream that's being sold from media, from politicians,
00:33:11.380 from our clergy, from our parents, where, you know, kids, parents tell them, you know,
00:33:16.340 a good man is somebody who believes in God and lives a godly life.
00:33:19.840 A good man is somebody that takes care of themselves.
00:33:23.340 Honey, you have to look sexy, put on the right makeup, or, you know, you got to go serve the
00:33:27.400 military because it's this, you got to have, you got to work hard.
00:33:30.340 You know, you got to really work hard.
00:33:31.540 All these things that we go through, organized, clean, athlete.
00:33:35.300 My dad loves football.
00:33:36.580 I'm going to go be a football player to make him proud.
00:33:38.960 How much of it is the marketing being done around us by media, TV, parents, military,
00:33:43.140 all that stuff?
00:33:43.900 And how much of it is actually us?
00:33:45.300 Yeah, I mean, great.
00:33:45.980 So if I were to rephrase your question, I would say you're, in a sense, if I distill
00:33:52.360 it, it's you're asking about the nature versus nurture issue, right?
00:33:55.660 How much of who we are is due to nature, genes?
00:33:58.260 How much of it is due to nurture, you know, all the things that you mentioned?
00:34:02.400 Well, and the best way for me to answer that, I'm not trying to do a cop-out answer.
00:34:06.800 It's really the true scientific answer.
00:34:09.000 So I'm going to use a metaphor here.
00:34:11.680 So if you take all of the ingredients of a cake, you take the butter, you take the eggs,
00:34:16.520 you take the flour, you take the baking soda.
00:34:19.120 Each of those ingredients are separate, right?
00:34:22.200 Before I bake the cake.
00:34:23.240 Once I bake the cake, and now I show you the final cake, if I were to tell you, Patrick,
00:34:28.320 please point to the eggs, you couldn't.
00:34:30.140 It's an inextricable mix.
00:34:31.600 Patrick, please point to the sugar.
00:34:33.360 So we are that cake.
00:34:35.120 We are an inextricable melange, mix of our genes and our environments.
00:34:40.260 Now, depending on the phenomenon you ask me about, it might tilt more towards nature or
00:34:45.440 nurture.
00:34:45.760 My height is driven a lot more by my nature than my nurture.
00:34:50.020 No amount of hugging and coddling by my parents would have turned me into a six foot six basketball
00:34:55.420 player.
00:34:56.300 So the best answer I can give you is it depends.
00:35:00.240 Some things are almost exclusively nature.
00:35:03.020 Some are largely due to nurture, but most are somewhere in the middle.
00:35:06.800 I hope that I've given you a satisfactory answer.
00:35:09.340 Yeah.
00:35:09.840 Maybe let me go a little bit deeper with that.
00:35:11.660 And I know that answer, and I've kind of a word, the nature, and we'll debate that all
00:35:17.740 the time.
00:35:18.220 Are entrepreneurs born?
00:35:19.500 Are they made?
00:35:20.200 And we'll kind of go.
00:35:20.700 I'm going a little bit deeper than that.
00:35:21.920 So for example, I sit there and I market the idea of being gay and lesbian to you.
00:35:34.400 On TV, it was getting, I don't know, 0.2% of TV or media was showing what a gay character
00:35:44.980 is or commercials having gay, lesbian, all that stuff, right?
00:35:48.880 And today, it's widely accepted, left and right.
00:35:51.520 It's no longer like a thing where Trump was asked on his campaign, hey, so what do you think
00:35:57.400 about the LGBT?
00:35:58.460 He says, it's a lot.
00:35:59.240 What do you want me to do?
00:35:59.780 That's what, let's go next topic.
00:36:00.900 And it's just kind of moved on.
00:36:01.820 No one's debating it anymore, except from the far extreme conservatives, you know, more
00:36:06.700 clergy based, you know, faith based Republicans.
00:36:09.860 But if I, if I increase that from 0.1% to 1% to 2% to 5% of coverage on TV to 10% and it's
00:36:17.300 now my face, does it influence me as a kid thinking, you know, maybe I am gay, maybe I
00:36:22.740 am lesbian, maybe I, does it influence that at all?
00:36:25.700 No.
00:36:25.840 So I think what it would do if we, if we take that specific example you're giving, what
00:36:30.720 the changes in culture will do is that it might normalize the existence of homosexuality such
00:36:39.800 that we no longer consider it a taboo, right?
00:36:42.440 So through those interventions, we change the cultural norms that allow us to now view same
00:36:50.080 sex couple as, you know, just who cares?
00:36:52.300 I can just, you know, without batting an eye, but it's not going to affect my underlying
00:36:58.780 sexual preferences, which are innate, right?
00:37:02.080 But interestingly, by the way, a lot of the activists, now look, look how silly this can
00:37:05.580 get.
00:37:05.820 A lot of the activists will argue that heterosexuality is learned, whereas homosexuality is innate.
00:37:14.460 Now that is insane.
00:37:15.640 We are a sexually reproducing species.
00:37:17.620 So you would think that for a sexually reproducing species, the default value would be heterosexuality,
00:37:24.380 but apparently I'm just a dumb evolutionary behavioral scientist.
00:37:28.540 Well, I want to show you this.
00:37:29.720 I, this literally just came up while I'm talking to you.
00:37:31.780 I just searched it on Google.
00:37:32.980 So let me try to share screen and just kind of show this to you.
00:37:36.500 I want to hear your thoughts on this.
00:37:37.640 So this is from Gallup.
00:37:38.740 So Gallup shows, let me know if you can see it.
00:37:41.960 I can see.
00:37:42.760 Yeah, go ahead.
00:37:43.420 Okay.
00:37:43.680 So Gallup shows that since 2012 till today, American self-identification as LGBT went from
00:37:53.520 three and a half percent to three, six, three, seven, three, nine.
00:37:56.420 Now 5.6% identify as LGBT up 2% from just eight years ago to 2020.
00:38:04.100 So in Gallup is pretty center, you know, it's not left or it's right.
00:38:08.880 Where, you know, like, for example, maybe I'll take a different angle with this.
00:38:12.360 I don't have to go necessarily to this.
00:38:13.560 Let's take another one.
00:38:15.440 I'm speaking at a conference.
00:38:17.240 They invite me to speak group of pastors.
00:38:20.220 Hey, marketing.
00:38:21.480 They wanted me to talk specifically on the marketing side.
00:38:24.920 Hey, why is, you know, money being given to churches down?
00:38:28.680 Christian non-denomination, not necessarily on the denominator, specifically non-denomination.
00:38:32.780 Why is it down?
00:38:34.100 You know, these young people just don't get it anymore.
00:38:36.820 And I said, you know what?
00:38:38.500 Go to Mormon's YouTube channel.
00:38:40.620 So if you go to Mormon's YouTube channel, Mormonism is up.
00:38:43.300 Okay.
00:38:43.840 You go to a bunch of churches, they're up.
00:38:46.560 Non-denomination is low.
00:38:48.020 Okay.
00:38:48.420 Why is that?
00:38:49.220 What are you guys doing that you weren't doing before?
00:38:50.860 Right.
00:38:51.120 Okay.
00:38:51.600 Here's another one for you.
00:38:53.020 The argument of atheists.
00:38:55.260 That argument wasn't that high 50 years ago.
00:38:59.600 Okay.
00:39:00.160 We had it.
00:39:00.880 Don't get me wrong.
00:39:01.460 Of course we've had it.
00:39:02.060 We've had it for a long time.
00:39:03.340 And this isn't a new thing.
00:39:04.520 Thomas Jefferson had an element of debating the existence of God.
00:39:08.360 So it's not a new thing.
00:39:09.240 I'm not sitting here telling you everybody always believed in God, but you'll hear a lot
00:39:12.640 of people say things like this.
00:39:14.220 You know, I used to be a Jew.
00:39:15.620 I used to believe in all this other stuff.
00:39:17.220 And I used to be Catholic.
00:39:18.120 I used to be Christian.
00:39:19.240 But listen, we're much smarter today.
00:39:21.100 You know, we know, let's face it.
00:39:22.340 There is no God.
00:39:23.100 What are you talking about?
00:39:23.920 It's been proven all this other stuff.
00:39:25.060 Is that because we're smarter or is that because the people on TV and social talking about that
00:39:31.860 God doesn't exist has increased the percentage of that message being given where people are
00:39:35.440 starting to say, you know what, maybe you're right.
00:39:38.000 God doesn't exist.
00:39:39.180 I'm trying to see how much of that's being influenced from media.
00:39:41.880 I think it's several factors, whether it be the LGBTQ data that you shared from Gallup or
00:39:47.960 whether it be the atheism example that you gave.
00:39:49.940 So one possibility is by creating a, quote, safer environment for someone to truly identify
00:39:58.420 as an atheist when in the past it was difficult for me to do so or to truly identify as a member
00:40:04.260 of the LGBTQ community, whereas earlier I would have been ostracized by my family and kicked
00:40:09.300 out of my small town in the southern USA, then those patterns go up, not so much because
00:40:15.560 there are now more LGBTQ people, but because people are more comfortable admitting to
00:40:19.860 who they are.
00:40:20.400 So that's one possibility.
00:40:22.120 But there's a slightly more, I mean, not sinister, but, you know, less clear example.
00:40:28.880 And actually, I had a guest on my show.
00:40:30.380 It hasn't aired.
00:40:31.500 The conversation hasn't aired.
00:40:33.160 Her name is Abigail Schreier.
00:40:34.700 She wrote a book where she basically argued that the increase in transgender young women,
00:40:42.700 so biological women who now self-identify as male, is akin to a social contagion, right?
00:40:51.340 In other words, in the same way that a contagion can spread, ideas also spread.
00:40:56.220 And so for whatever reason, it becomes intoxicating to be a member of that identifiable group.
00:41:02.640 So the next question you can ask me, well, why would anybody ever want to self-identify as
00:41:08.700 a member of a marginalized group, like the LGBTQ folks, people?
00:41:13.180 And here, actually, I'm going ahead to my latest book.
00:41:17.000 I actually explained this using something called a psychiatric disorder called Munchausen
00:41:21.760 syndrome.
00:41:22.240 Can I take a minute or two to explain what that is?
00:41:23.760 Go for it, please.
00:41:24.320 So in 2010, I had written a scientific paper in a medical journal on Munchausen syndrome,
00:41:31.340 which is the mechanism whereby someone feigns a illness so that they can garner the empathy
00:41:38.320 and sympathy that comes with having that illness.
00:41:41.060 Munchausen syndrome by proxy is even more diabolical because this is when you have someone under your
00:41:46.460 care, your elderly parent, your pet, or typically your biological child, you harm them.
00:41:53.040 You physically harm them so that you can then garner the empathy and sympathy by proxy.
00:41:58.280 Oh, poor you.
00:41:59.240 You're a parent of an ailing child.
00:42:01.140 So I was trying to understand the evolutionary reason why biological mothers would harm their
00:42:07.140 children to get that ego stroke.
00:42:08.860 So now I'm going to tie it in with that social contagion that I just talked about.
00:42:13.020 Well, to the extent that it now becomes a form of victimhood to be a member of a marginalized
00:42:19.420 group, I can get my ego strokes, my empathy and sympathy by being a member of that group.
00:42:26.420 You follow?
00:42:26.760 Now, as you might imagine, Abigail Schreier got into a lot of trouble because, quote, she
00:42:33.200 was erasing the voices of those transgendered kids.
00:42:36.580 Now, she wasn't saying that transgenderism doesn't exist.
00:42:39.800 She wasn't saying that we should be bigoted towards transgenderism.
00:42:42.520 She was simply saying that for some of the people, they aren't truly transgendered.
00:42:48.220 They are simply succumbing to a social contagion.
00:42:50.540 So to go back, to finalize with your Gallup poll, I suspect that some of that uptake is
00:42:55.760 due to the social contagion effect.
00:42:58.340 So the irreversible damage is the one I think you're talking about.
00:43:01.220 The bush.
00:43:01.460 Exactly right.
00:43:02.240 Exactly right.
00:43:02.740 So let's go on that.
00:43:04.100 Let's go even deeper with that on what you're saying.
00:43:06.000 So I'll give you a story.
00:43:07.440 I'm in the army.
00:43:08.360 I'm 18, 19 years old.
00:43:09.760 So I love women like I can't have enough of them.
00:43:13.740 Like I was like, you know, I was greedy, extremely greedy.
00:43:16.940 Right.
00:43:17.880 And I was a capitalist.
00:43:19.100 I wanted to experience everything and anything I could.
00:43:22.340 One day, one of the guys at our unit says, I found the sickest club, but I can't tell
00:43:26.960 everybody about it because we could all be kicked out of the army if they find out what
00:43:29.860 club this is.
00:43:30.500 I said, what club is it?
00:43:31.260 It's a gay club.
00:43:32.500 So it's a gay club.
00:43:33.380 Yeah.
00:43:33.560 But I'm telling you, it's the best club in America.
00:43:35.360 I'm like, it's the best club in America.
00:43:36.900 Where is it at?
00:43:37.640 It's in Nashville, Tennessee.
00:43:38.660 Get out of here.
00:43:39.120 No one's going to put the best club in Nashville, Tennessee.
00:43:41.620 I'm telling you, it's the best club in Nashville, Tennessee.
00:43:44.260 What's the name?
00:43:44.880 I can't tell you.
00:43:45.620 I just have to take you there first.
00:43:46.920 All right.
00:43:47.140 So at this point of the game, thank God I trust this guy because he was my workout partner.
00:43:51.860 So I asked him, I said, listen, I mean, I partied with you.
00:43:54.080 I've never seen you like men.
00:43:55.160 He says, no, no, you don't understand.
00:43:56.080 I don't like men, but you got to go here with me.
00:43:58.880 You'll see why it's unfair.
00:44:00.320 I said, okay, let's go.
00:44:01.480 So we go to the club.
00:44:02.960 So we take one of our friends.
00:44:04.380 It's four of us.
00:44:05.020 Now, two of our friends, by the way, all of them till today.
00:44:08.700 We're in contact.
00:44:09.840 So we go to the club.
00:44:12.340 First of all, women are there with the intention of they don't want to be flirted.
00:44:16.220 They want to be left alone.
00:44:17.220 Right.
00:44:17.420 So they're kind of going, they're saying, oh, the gay men, I love gay men because they're
00:44:20.420 this, they're that.
00:44:21.420 So there's only a few straight men there.
00:44:23.440 We're four of them.
00:44:24.580 Okay.
00:44:24.760 So the market's on our side.
00:44:26.400 We're winning here.
00:44:27.440 Right.
00:44:27.700 But we go in and obviously it was exactly what he said.
00:44:32.800 It was unfair.
00:44:33.980 It's like the movie, Wedding Crasher, where the scene where Owen Wilson goes to meet Will
00:44:39.320 Farrell and Will Farrell's like, ma, meatloaf.
00:44:41.940 He says, man, I'm not going to weddings anymore.
00:44:43.900 I'm crashing funerals.
00:44:45.440 You got to see.
00:44:46.260 It's like, it's not even fair because you know, all this stuff.
00:44:48.480 Anyways, now, obviously there's a part of it.
00:44:50.220 That's not funny, but that's humor movie.
00:44:51.980 You know, we all watch Wedding Cratch.
00:44:53.120 It's funny, but one of my friends, a guy comes and flirts with them.
00:44:57.880 Now for me, it's like, listen, it's cool.
00:44:59.520 I get along with everybody.
00:45:00.980 I'm very comfortable, but I have no interest.
00:45:03.840 But one of the guys comes and tells one of our friends and he says, so you like men?
00:45:09.220 No, I like women.
00:45:11.140 He asks a simple question afterwards.
00:45:13.560 How do you know?
00:45:15.560 And I got to tell you this question of how do you know, confuse the living crap out of
00:45:21.680 this guy.
00:45:22.160 So we leave the place.
00:45:24.520 We got a one hour drive back.
00:45:26.080 It's two o'clock in the morning.
00:45:27.140 We've had 20 beers and us.
00:45:28.480 We're driving with, you know, alcohol levels.
00:45:30.540 That's not appropriate at all.
00:45:32.060 The entire time is like, how do I know?
00:45:34.760 Like, what are you doing?
00:45:36.300 But I really don't know.
00:45:38.100 What do you fantasize?
00:45:42.380 But this is what's crazy about it.
00:45:44.980 You know what ended up happening?
00:45:46.500 This guy experienced just to find out if he knows or not.
00:45:49.960 That's what he had a gay encounter just to answer that question.
00:45:54.100 Just to answer that question, whether he did or not.
00:45:57.680 So the part I'm going to you with this, obviously, there's humor behind the story, but it wasn't
00:46:02.280 humorous on the drive back.
00:46:03.820 I just remember being hammered and we're cracking up about it.
00:46:06.960 But the point I'm trying to make to you is, if media and TV, social, if they have this
00:46:12.820 much power, if they just put it in your mind to say, how do you know cocaine isn't good
00:46:18.680 for you?
00:46:19.260 How do you know you're not a trans?
00:46:20.800 How do you know you're not this?
00:46:21.900 How do you know you're not that?
00:46:23.200 How do you know?
00:46:23.760 We don't know.
00:46:24.380 How do you know communism doesn't work?
00:46:26.040 How do you know?
00:46:26.780 How do you know?
00:46:27.480 How do you know?
00:46:27.880 You're like, maybe I don't know.
00:46:29.860 Maybe it is euphoric.
00:46:31.380 Maybe it is utopian type of a life.
00:46:33.720 Maybe I should try it.
00:46:35.220 That's what I mean when I say the marketing today, the amount of influence they have.
00:46:38.720 Is it really changing the way we're wired because we're questioning stuff about ourselves
00:46:42.740 that maybe we just don't know?
00:46:44.520 I wish marketers had that much influence.
00:46:48.740 They don't.
00:46:50.240 Now, in the case of your friend, maybe he had some questions that he needed answered.
00:46:55.260 But I think that if you were to ask 100 men who are avowed heterosexuals, how do you
00:47:03.580 know you don't want to get sodomized by a Turkish hairy guy?
00:47:07.440 How do you know?
00:47:08.560 They'll say, well, because I don't fantasize about that.
00:47:11.140 Basically, my entire internal life of fantasy has been rooted in fantasizing over Beyonce
00:47:17.800 and not about a Turkish hairy guy sodomizing me.
00:47:21.060 So I don't think it's that mysterious.
00:47:22.880 And I don't think any marketing guy is going to convince me to go to a gay sauna and have
00:47:28.840 sodomy.
00:47:29.740 So I think that's on your friend.
00:47:32.140 But I will mention something that is scientifically interesting to what you asked.
00:47:36.640 There is something called sexual fluidity.
00:47:40.640 And it's actually, it's a real term whereby, so if you look at women, they're much more
00:47:46.940 likely to be fluid.
00:47:49.020 So for example, a woman could be completely committed to being a heterosexual woman.
00:47:53.880 She really prefers men.
00:47:55.760 But you know, in that dorm at Wellesley on that cold evening night when my girlfriend and
00:48:02.540 I were really tight and we started wrestling, a little lesbian session broke out.
00:48:06.500 Now, I say that, you know, in a jocular manner.
00:48:08.760 But women have the capacity to be a lot more fluid in their sexuality whilst completely being,
00:48:17.240 you know, committed to being heterosexual.
00:48:19.500 It's much, much less likely in men.
00:48:23.180 And the data, the scientific data suggests that very few men wake up on a Tuesday and
00:48:27.940 say, today, I have to kind of think inside, do I want to be clobbered by Shaquille O'Neal
00:48:35.220 or is it going to be Beyonce night?
00:48:37.820 No, I think I'm going Shaquille.
00:48:39.600 Very few guys.
00:48:40.480 Maybe your friend was one of those, but he's a unicorn.
00:48:43.720 I hope he doesn't see this interview because he's going to be upset with me.
00:48:46.280 I highly doubt he's going to see it.
00:48:47.420 But we didn't mention his name, so we don't know.
00:48:48.860 No, we did not.
00:48:49.420 So we're safe.
00:48:50.140 We're safe.
00:48:50.500 Let's just give him a name.
00:48:51.520 Let's call him Jackson is what we're going to call him.
00:48:54.700 Okay.
00:48:54.800 So, all right.
00:48:55.860 So, but let's go back to that.
00:48:57.540 Let's go back to that.
00:48:58.360 Whether you're going to wake up in the morning with a fantasy about getting clobbered by Shaq.
00:49:01.860 I can't see that happening with you, but let's just see somebody does wake up.
00:49:05.600 He'd be clobbered by me.
00:49:06.980 I'm the guy in that relationship.
00:49:08.880 He's the girl, Mrs. Shaq.
00:49:12.080 That visual is just a very strange visual.
00:49:15.800 I'm going to try to take out of my head today, guy.
00:49:17.820 That's not a visual I want to have with a evolutionary behavioral scientist hooking up with Shaq.
00:49:22.720 So, so, so let's, let's get away from that.
00:49:25.120 Let's go to a whole different place, but specifically to that topic.
00:49:28.280 Okay.
00:49:28.680 So, let's get away from the gay and how do you know, right?
00:49:32.820 Let's go to the same phrase being repeated a billion times until you're like, you know what?
00:49:40.080 Men are dogs.
00:49:41.460 Men are dogs.
00:49:42.380 Men are dogs.
00:49:43.380 Men are dogs.
00:49:44.320 Men are dogs.
00:49:45.240 Men are dogs.
00:49:46.240 Hose before bros.
00:49:47.400 Well, bros before hos.
00:49:49.140 So, he's like a woman.
00:49:50.880 All women do this.
00:49:52.160 All men lie.
00:49:53.200 All men.
00:49:53.640 Like that's, you hear that a billion times.
00:49:56.440 You're like, you know what?
00:49:57.460 That's right.
00:49:58.680 You know, men are this, men are that.
00:50:00.340 Okay.
00:50:00.860 So, 1960, 64% of African-Americans are voting Republican.
00:50:08.720 1964, 92% of African-Americans are voting Democrat.
00:50:14.320 Okay.
00:50:14.520 Let me say that one more time.
00:50:15.240 I'm sorry.
00:50:15.580 1960, 64% of African-Americans are voting Democrat.
00:50:19.600 64.
00:50:20.060 36% are voting Republican.
00:50:22.320 64% are voting Democrat.
00:50:23.840 That's in 1960.
00:50:25.320 Fast forward four years later, Barry Goldwater, 1964, 92% is voting Democrat.
00:50:32.460 It went from 64% to 92% in the span of four years, right?
00:50:36.380 Wow.
00:50:36.940 So, the messaging, and today, by the way, the numbers are at around 88%, 84% to 88%.
00:50:41.700 We're still at that same number.
00:50:43.220 Trump, it was a little bit lower, but you're still at around the mid-80% range that we have
00:50:46.200 today.
00:50:46.440 So, you hear the phrase, Democrats or Republicans, Democrats are for Blacks, Democrats are for
00:50:51.980 Blacks, Democrats are for Blacks, Democrats are for Blacks, Democrats are for Blacks.
00:50:55.360 You go look at Jews.
00:50:57.540 Jews come to America.
00:50:59.340 The rich Republicans' country clubs didn't allow Jews on, right?
00:51:03.480 No Italian, no Jews, no, you know, you've seen that sign before, right?
00:51:06.980 So, Jews, so powerful, they make so much money.
00:51:09.780 Why are they Democrats?
00:51:10.400 Democrats, most of their beliefs is conservative, but why are they Democrats?
00:51:14.320 Because Democrats are for Jews, Democrats are for Jews, Democrats are for Jews, Democrats.
00:51:18.080 I'm Armenian.
00:51:18.960 Your wife is Lebanese-Armenian.
00:51:20.440 I'm Armenian-Assyrian, right?
00:51:22.340 No, this is, so my mom, one day I'm talking to her, and I say, Mom, you know, everybody
00:51:26.360 in school is talking about Democrats and Republicans.
00:51:28.420 What the hell are we?
00:51:29.100 I still don't know.
00:51:29.680 What are we?
00:51:30.040 My mom's like, nope.
00:51:31.360 You know, one day you're going to read the book Karl Marx.
00:51:33.540 We're Democrats, is what we are, because Democrats are for the poor.
00:51:37.360 Republicans are for the rich.
00:51:38.440 You know what I said?
00:51:39.640 I said, I want to be a Republican one day, Mom, because I want to be rich.
00:51:42.680 I don't want to be a Republican.
00:51:43.640 I just want to be rich.
00:51:44.800 And she says, no, we're for Democrats.
00:51:47.460 How much does messaging, repeating it over and over and over and over and over again,
00:51:54.440 get me to flip to a different side, whether I look at somebody in a good way, a bad way,
00:51:58.580 an ugly way?
00:51:59.360 Yeah, well, repetition, as a matter of fact, I've done research on what's called advertising
00:52:04.180 repetition effects, right?
00:52:05.360 So how many times should I repeat a message?
00:52:08.360 But by the way, even for repetition effects, there is an inflection point.
00:52:12.120 In other words, repeating a message many times is great up to a point, but then you repeat
00:52:17.280 it beyond that point, it could backfire against you, right?
00:52:20.480 So it's an inverted U.
00:52:22.040 Got it.
00:52:22.360 But yes, absolutely.
00:52:23.560 You're right.
00:52:24.280 That repetition is one of the central tools in the arsenal of weaponry that marketers will
00:52:29.360 use.
00:52:29.600 Now, let me give you a somewhat fancier cognitive psychology explanation for why people succumb
00:52:36.420 to this.
00:52:37.200 So there is a German psychologist by the name of Gerd Gigerenzer who developed a research
00:52:43.720 stream called fast and frugal heuristics.
00:52:47.380 Heuristics are mental shortcuts, right?
00:52:50.120 It's a decision rule that you could deploy rapidly.
00:52:53.380 So what's a fast and frugal heuristic?
00:52:55.260 A fast heuristic is one that you could deploy very, very quickly, and it's frugal in that
00:53:01.340 it is not cognitively costly to deploy.
00:53:04.220 So let me give an example of a fast and frugal heuristic in your wheelhouse of investment
00:53:09.320 and so on.
00:53:09.920 So there is something called the recognition heuristic, which basically goes as follows.
00:53:14.300 Choose that which you recognize.
00:53:16.540 So if I give you two investment portfolios or an investment portfolio made up of a bunch
00:53:21.620 of companies, some of the companies I recognize, I recognize Coca-Cola, I recognize Ford, but
00:53:27.080 I don't recognize Gentech.
00:53:28.340 So one group of people are going to implement the following investment strategy, a fast and
00:53:33.680 frugal strategy.
00:53:35.020 Simply choose to invest in stocks of companies that you recognize.
00:53:40.780 So that's one strategy, right?
00:53:42.220 It's a very naive one, right?
00:53:44.620 The other one is use all sorts of mathematical modeling from PhDs in mathematics from Princeton
00:53:51.000 to come up with the optimal investment diversified strategy.
00:53:55.580 Guess what?
00:53:56.500 The simple fast and frugal heuristic performs just as well as the fancy one.
00:54:02.060 In other words, there are evolutionary reasons when simply deploying a fast and frugal heuristic
00:54:06.580 works just as well.
00:54:08.020 So now let's link it back to the repetition stuff.
00:54:11.040 Most people are cognitive misers, meaning that they are intellectually lazy.
00:54:15.220 I don't want to spend all my time knowing whether Islam is peaceful or not.
00:54:19.380 If Barack Obama tells me enough times that Islam is peaceful, then I will simply use that as
00:54:25.900 a shortcut and then it will make my world much simpler.
00:54:29.420 You follow what I mean?
00:54:30.200 So there is a cognitive enticement for me to simply be swayed by a repetitive message.
00:54:39.960 Because if I don't do that, I'm going to have to do the heavy lifting of actually going
00:54:45.480 out to find out for myself.
00:54:46.820 So for example, if I want to truly find out whether historically the Democrats were the
00:54:52.680 racist ones or not, well, that's going to have to force me to actually do some work,
00:54:57.080 whether it be on Google or in the library.
00:54:59.140 Screw that.
00:55:00.180 Why don't I just believe Uncle Joe Biden who tells me that, no, it's the Republicans that
00:55:05.360 are the KKK white supremacists.
00:55:07.000 And that's good enough for me.
00:55:08.100 So I think that instinct of succumbing to repetition stems from the fact that most people are
00:55:14.580 cognitively lazy.
00:55:15.880 By the way, the answer that I just gave not only guaranteed that I will be invited again
00:55:20.500 on your show, it has guaranteed that I will be the number one most invited guest on your
00:55:25.880 show.
00:55:27.320 Why don't you smoke that?
00:55:28.840 I got to tell you, your level of humility is on a whole different level.
00:55:32.280 I mean, it's just, it's like a number one most humble guy of all time.
00:55:38.040 I don't think so.
00:55:39.200 And I wouldn't, I don't think that necessarily helps at the highest level when you want to
00:55:43.480 get your message across, but go back on that.
00:55:45.640 You know, we were having a debate, friends, family, we're sitting there and this is the
00:55:48.940 question I'm asking, you know, it's the question is, uh, you know, oh, things are changing
00:55:53.640 dramatically.
00:55:54.780 Things are really changing.
00:55:56.160 You know, it's just, oh my gosh, we've never had a, like this before.
00:56:00.460 Okay.
00:56:01.780 Have quiet, rich people who make their money, create jobs and take care of people.
00:56:06.900 Have they been around?
00:56:07.740 Yes.
00:56:08.660 Have con artists, rich people who abuse people, take advantage of people.
00:56:12.960 Have they always been around?
00:56:14.500 Yes.
00:56:15.440 Have lazy people who want to be entitled to your wealth and tell you how unfair it is on
00:56:22.420 why you're making money.
00:56:23.240 Have they been around?
00:56:24.120 Yes.
00:56:24.360 Have people who always, you know, look at themselves as the, you know, you don't even
00:56:30.260 understand what kind of, and they use guilt or, you know, if you only knew how hard my
00:56:34.060 life was, you would know why I'm not winning.
00:56:36.940 They're always looking for a reason why they're not, have they always been around?
00:56:39.440 Yes.
00:56:39.900 Have people who sit in the middle and I say, I don't know, I kind of agree with both
00:56:42.480 sides.
00:56:43.320 I don't know if I fully agree that I don't know, but you know what, you kind of make
00:56:45.820 sense.
00:56:46.280 Have the people in the middle always been around?
00:56:48.720 Yes.
00:56:49.080 Have dictators always been around?
00:56:50.460 Yes.
00:56:50.800 Have arrogance always been around?
00:56:52.400 What's really changed?
00:56:53.480 I mean, what has really changed today?
00:56:55.160 Are we really behaviorally changing that dramatically today versus a hundred years ago, 200 years
00:57:00.860 ago, 500?
00:57:01.520 And if yes, how?
00:57:03.100 So, well, it depends on which phenomenon you're speaking of.
00:57:06.220 I mean, on some things, of course, there is a social evolution that happens where, you
00:57:12.980 know, I used to, I mean, I'm speaking generically, I've never smoked, but, you know, I used to
00:57:17.540 think that smoking was okay because the pharmaceutical companies told me that it's
00:57:21.580 healthy to be a smoker.
00:57:22.780 But then I learned through epidemiology that it's actually not true.
00:57:26.200 And so I altered my behavior.
00:57:27.580 So, so it's, so there are some things that are impervious to change.
00:57:31.760 The fact that you and I, and probably every other man who's ever lived prefers a woman
00:57:36.620 who has an hourglass figure to a woman who is like the one you mentioned, the heroin chic,
00:57:41.680 the 90 pound woman, or, you know, or there is no culture where men repeatedly prefer women
00:57:47.560 that look like male Olympic swimmers with broad shoulders and narrow waist.
00:57:52.600 That is never going to change.
00:57:54.060 No amount of marketing is ever going to alter that because that is such an indelible part
00:57:59.020 of what makes me a human that you're not, no persuasion is ever going to change that.
00:58:04.260 But on other things, there is a change, right?
00:58:06.260 Who could have foreseen the types of intoxicating addictive power that social media has on our
00:58:12.300 kids 10 or 15 years ago?
00:58:13.680 Today, it's probably harder for me to get my kids to pry the cell phone away from my
00:58:19.440 kids than it is to have them love me, right?
00:58:23.660 It's impossible to get them to get off the social media.
00:58:27.040 So, so some things are open to change.
00:58:29.180 Other things are not.
00:58:30.080 And I guess that's exactly what an evolutionary behavioral scientist does.
00:58:32.900 He tries to, he or she tries to study those things that are interacting with the environment
00:58:37.720 versus those things that are an indelible part of our human nature.
00:58:41.460 Very cool.
00:58:42.080 And that's why we need you.
00:58:42.900 That's why we need you to run.
00:58:44.000 That's what we need you to keep doing.
00:58:45.200 And by the way, just, just to clarify, when I do all that bombastic, grandiose stuff, I
00:58:49.940 am joking.
00:58:50.880 I'm not genuine.
00:58:51.780 I'm actually a very down to earth guy.
00:58:53.680 Of course.
00:58:54.300 Listen, just from talking, but you're the kind of guy I would want to go to dinner and,
00:58:58.760 you know, debate topics, talk topics, go deeper.
00:59:01.700 You're that guy.
00:59:02.500 You're the person I wants to be friends with and just have dinner with you.
00:59:06.100 I mean, that's how I judge in the military.
00:59:08.260 You would, you would see who you would get along.
00:59:10.020 We're like, it's just a guy I want to be friends with you.
00:59:11.760 This, this is the kind of person you want to have in your life.
00:59:13.740 That's the feeling I get from you.
00:59:14.800 Can I tell you something?
00:59:15.980 By the way, what you just said means a lot to me and it's very sweet.
00:59:18.520 Thank you so much, Patrick.
00:59:20.080 I tell people, so I receive, as you might imagine, you know, tons of fan mail and all
00:59:25.060 that.
00:59:25.480 The ones that mean the most to me or some of the ones that mean the most are precisely
00:59:29.820 from military guys.
00:59:30.820 The guy who is the Navy SEAL, the guy who is the special forces who says, you know what?
00:59:36.900 We want, we would have wanted you to be with us.
00:59:39.100 And I don't know, maybe it's the machismo part, but I'm like, I want to hear from that
00:59:43.300 guy, not from the Stanford professor smoking the pipe.
00:59:48.300 And so I really understand what you mean.
00:59:50.220 It's about being in the trenches with guys that are cool, that have your back.
00:59:54.240 I'm all about that.
00:59:55.120 And now maybe, by the way, that comes from the fact that I was also a very competitive
00:59:59.340 soccer player.
01:00:00.260 So when you're a competitive soccer player, you can't get offended by every word that
01:00:04.460 someone says.
01:00:05.100 It teaches you to be anti-fragile.
01:00:07.520 You don't wilt away because someone trash talks you.
01:00:10.660 And so maybe there's also that element that allows probably someone like you and I to get
01:00:15.180 along and be sympathetic.
01:00:16.580 I was having a conversation with these two guys who were trying to troll me.
01:00:20.460 And I told the guys, is that really the best you got?
01:00:22.800 I said, do you realize if you were in the army, the guys at my unit would destroy you
01:00:27.900 with the way they would troll?
01:00:28.880 You would emotionally be hiding in a closet for the rest of your life.
01:00:32.020 You guys got to pick up your trolling game because you don't have it.
01:00:35.020 But let me go to your latest book.
01:00:37.240 So The Parasitic Mind, How Infectious Ideas Are Killing Common Sense.
01:00:42.220 What infectious ideas today do you feel are creating a lot of momentum and why?
01:00:47.960 Right.
01:00:48.800 Thank you for talking about the latest book.
01:00:51.220 So let me kind of give you the back, the elevator story of the book, and then I will answer
01:00:56.680 your specific question.
01:00:58.000 So I argue that contrary to the current pandemic that we're facing with COVID, we've faced another
01:01:04.360 pandemic for the past 40, 50 years.
01:01:06.760 And in this case, the virus is not a biological virus.
01:01:10.140 It's a mind virus.
01:01:11.180 That's why I call these idea pathogens or parasitic ideas.
01:01:14.580 And so where do these ideas come from?
01:01:16.220 So if we're trying to find out where the COVID virus came from, we're not allowed to say because
01:01:21.620 to say where it comes from would be racist, of course.
01:01:24.120 So where do these idea pathogens come from?
01:01:26.960 They all come from the university ecosystem.
01:01:29.060 In other words, as I always remind people, it takes intellectuals and professors to come
01:01:33.120 up with some of the dumbest ideas.
01:01:34.440 So now I'm going to answer your, so what I do in the book basically is I talk about all
01:01:38.400 these idea pathogens, where they originate from, what downstream effects they have had
01:01:44.160 on society, and then how we can vaccinate ourselves against these bad ideas.
01:01:48.860 So now I answer the question of what are some examples of these idea pathogens?
01:01:53.340 So probably the granddaddy of all idea pathogens, Patrick, is what's called postmodernism.
01:01:59.120 So postmodernism is a framework that developed in the university environment, which basically
01:02:05.240 purports the following.
01:02:06.900 There are no universal truths.
01:02:08.760 There are no objective truths.
01:02:10.460 We are completely shackled by personal biases, by our subjectivity, by relativism.
01:02:17.940 So to speak of a universal truth is silly because there are no such truths.
01:02:21.920 Now, you could imagine how that's a complete form of intellectual terrorism because scientists
01:02:27.500 do wake up every day thinking that there is a truth to be discovered out there, right?
01:02:31.100 Now, the truth in science might change, right?
01:02:33.420 What was true 300 years ago may no longer be true today.
01:02:37.400 We update what we consider to be true, but we do operate every day under the premise that
01:02:41.780 there is something to be discoverable in the world.
01:02:44.120 There are natural phenomenon that are universally true.
01:02:47.440 If I throw you from a building 50 times, gravity is going to have the exact same effect 50
01:02:52.560 times out of 50.
01:02:53.460 So postmodernism is a deeply flawed and nihilistic framework because it actually takes you down
01:03:01.800 a dead end, right?
01:03:03.760 What can you build?
01:03:04.900 You can't build bridges using postmodernism.
01:03:07.440 You can't understand consumer choice using postmodernism.
01:03:11.060 And so it creates a form of chaos when students are taught all of this nonsense.
01:03:18.420 Here, I'll give you one or two other idea packages.
01:03:21.040 And then if you want to hear more, I'll tell you more.
01:03:23.460 Social constructivism is another idea pathogen.
01:03:26.000 It purports that we are all born with empty minds with equal potentiality, and it's only
01:03:31.620 socialization that made us who we are.
01:03:33.420 So Michael Jordan didn't start off his lot in life with an advantage over Patrick.
01:03:39.240 It's only because mama hugged him enough or didn't hug him enough that he became the NBA
01:03:43.900 star that he is.
01:03:44.740 Now, it's a very hopeful message, right?
01:03:46.400 Because it basically argues that any of our children could be the next Einstein or the
01:03:50.820 next Lionel Messi, but it is perfectly rooted in bullshit.
01:03:54.100 So each of these idea pathogens that I described, I argue they start off with a noble cause,
01:04:00.980 but then they metamorphosize into the murder of truth in the pursuit of that original noble
01:04:06.920 cause.
01:04:07.580 Does that make sense?
01:04:08.320 Yes, it does.
01:04:09.360 Yes, it does.
01:04:09.980 So, you know, what is your biggest concern outside?
01:04:13.420 I mean, obviously postmodernism, all these others, but what is your biggest concern with
01:04:17.320 the side effects of what critical race theory could do to us in the next 12, 24, 36 months?
01:04:23.960 Yes, so critical race theory stems from one of the idea pathogens that I discuss in the book.
01:04:30.340 So identity politics, the idea that I am first a member of a group before I am an individual,
01:04:36.960 right?
01:04:37.160 I'm not God sad.
01:04:38.540 I'm Lebanese Jew first.
01:04:40.140 Well, no, I am God sad.
01:04:41.960 I present myself on Patrick's show, not as a representative of Lebanese Jews.
01:04:46.500 I present myself as God sad with all my flaws and all my merits.
01:04:50.780 And I ask you to judge me based on my unique personhood.
01:04:53.940 That's what classical liberalism is.
01:04:56.040 Well, identity politics shatters that.
01:04:57.980 It says you are a member of the LGBT community or the Muslim community or the black community
01:05:03.740 or the indigenous community.
01:05:05.500 That's what defines you.
01:05:07.020 Now, I escaped the society that is a perfect manifestation of how you organize a society
01:05:14.340 along identity political lines, right?
01:05:16.320 Lebanon, everything is viewed through the prism of your religious tribe, right?
01:05:21.540 As a matter of fact, in Lebanon, there's an Arabic word in, well, in Lebanese that says
01:05:26.120 hawiyeh.
01:05:26.800 Hawiyeh means your internal passport, your internal ID card, so that if the cop stops you, you show
01:05:32.980 him your internal ID.
01:05:34.320 Well, the most conspicuous thing that you see on the ID is which religion you belong to,
01:05:41.260 right?
01:05:41.420 The constitution of Lebanon is organized along religious lines.
01:05:46.520 The president has to be of this religion.
01:05:48.620 The prime minister has to be of that religion.
01:05:50.840 This is the number of seats this religion gets in the parliament.
01:05:54.220 So everything is viewed through the prism of identity political line.
01:05:57.980 What do you end up with?
01:05:59.100 You end up with the Lebanese civil war.
01:06:01.080 That's what happens in the Balkans.
01:06:02.680 That's what happened in Iraq.
01:06:03.960 So everywhere where you create these tribal factions, they might coexist for a while, but
01:06:11.040 eventually the stressor of this political allegiance to different groups will start causing mayhem
01:06:19.160 in the society.
01:06:19.920 So what worries me the most is that the West is losing the belt of protection that it had
01:06:27.260 because of its very liberating and enlightened values, each of these are now being trashed
01:06:33.880 by all the idea pathogens that I describe in the book.
01:06:36.380 So in 10, 20, 50 years, if we continue along the same lines, we will have a repeat from the
01:06:42.720 Beirut that I escaped in 1975.
01:06:44.460 So you, you, you asked a couple of questions at the beginning, you said, what is the number
01:06:50.580 one reason why a man becomes a, what did you say?
01:06:54.720 Well, the man becomes a children is because he had a stepfather, right?
01:07:00.080 That's the one you're talking about because a stepfather always treats his biological sons,
01:07:04.180 kids different than he does his stepchildren.
01:07:06.880 And he said, the second reason why does a women end up becoming it all because a long-term
01:07:11.480 relationship with the man that they had in their lives, because men, you know, the jealousy
01:07:15.700 of women cheating on him and fidelity, et cetera, et cetera.
01:07:18.220 Okay.
01:07:18.840 So man, you know, what is the ultimate thing man is willing to fight for?
01:07:25.240 I have my opinions.
01:07:26.600 I've read a lot of books on the topic where you think about, Hey, when you start a new country,
01:07:32.220 what do you need to have in the country to attract the best families to come on board?
01:07:36.160 Okay.
01:07:36.620 You have to think about what a mother thinks about every morning she wakes up, which is what
01:07:40.000 are my kids going to be safe?
01:07:41.480 So number one is security, right?
01:07:42.660 And then, you know, the creativity of man, what does creativity man need?
01:07:46.420 What do you think is the number one thing man is willing to put their lives on the line
01:07:51.300 that eventually they're going to be like, listen, man, you've crossed the line.
01:07:54.800 I'm going to have to fight you for this.
01:07:56.360 You're going to have to kill me to take this away from you.
01:07:58.080 What is that one thing for most of us?
01:07:59.740 So I actually discussed this in chapter one of the parasitic mind, where I'm trying to explain
01:08:04.540 what are the two life ideals that shape every trajectory in my life?
01:08:10.760 And I came up with two, which answer your question.
01:08:14.200 It's truth and freedom, right?
01:08:16.380 You can't pursue truth without freedom.
01:08:18.960 And you can't have freedom if you're constantly murdering truth.
01:08:23.120 So they're kind of, they, they, it's a feedback loop between these two.
01:08:26.680 Now, freedom to me means many different things.
01:08:28.960 It's not just, you know, freedom of speech, which of course is fundamentally the most important,
01:08:33.360 right. But, you know, I tried to look at decisions that I've made in my life that speak to freedom
01:08:39.880 in completely different domains. So let me give you another example. When I used to be a competitive
01:08:44.020 soccer player, I played what's called the playmaker role. In other words, I would float around the
01:08:49.920 field looking for spaces to try to, you know, be creative. Now, if a coach came along and told me
01:08:56.960 today, you're playing more on the left side of midfield, you have to track back and cover.
01:09:01.000 So you are restricting my freedom. I, it's as if you had decapitated my head. I lost all my creative
01:09:07.520 juice. So for me, so to answer your question in a very sort of existential way, the most fundamental
01:09:13.600 thing that people fight for is for freedom, right? I mean, and security is ultimately linked to freedom.
01:09:19.320 If I don't have the freedom to walk outside in New York city without having a stray bullet, kill
01:09:24.580 me. That's not very good. So freedom is everything. The rest is details. Yeah. I'm kind of with you
01:09:31.180 there. So right now, if freedom is everything and you are being pushed today, the other day, I, we make
01:09:39.900 a video on our podcast. We talk about an athlete that gave his opinions on a health matter and Hey, whether
01:09:46.420 I want to do this or not a decision, I don't want to take. We wrote it. We read it. What he said
01:09:50.820 that video was flagged. It got a strike channel was shut down for a week and then channel came back a
01:09:57.620 week later. Right. And we haven't had a lot of strikes with our channel. Our channel was clear
01:10:01.280 monetized the whole nine. We followed the rules that they have, but it makes you kind of sit there
01:10:06.240 and you're like, Oh, I don't know if I want to touch this. Just like last week, I was at Rudy Giuliani's
01:10:11.640 place all day. We interviewed him four hours. If the interview goes live, this is going to get
01:10:17.980 millions on top of millions of views because what some of the things he said, my attorneys are saying
01:10:22.620 don't put it up because there's likely if something's going to happen to your channel, if you put up
01:10:27.080 that specific topic, what he said about that thing that he revealed to everybody, that's going to be
01:10:31.880 controversial. Is it good idea that, is it a good idea that we're going in the direction where we have
01:10:36.900 to wake up every morning saying, I don't know, because some people are giving the argument from the
01:10:41.120 other side, well, it's not, you know, fact checking. It's not good. If it's not true, if it's not this
01:10:45.540 and how do you know this? And it's not, it makes people think it gives people ideas. How dangerous is
01:10:50.260 the direction we're going with censorship? I think what the example you gave is exactly the right point
01:10:57.100 to make, because oftentimes what people say is, well, it's not the government that's stopping you. So this
01:11:02.540 has nothing to do with freedom of speech because in their imbecilic myopic way, they think that the
01:11:08.900 attack on freedom only comes from the government. Well, you just gave an example that had nothing
01:11:14.080 to do with the government. You have a unbelievably successful YouTube channel. I checked it, 3 million.
01:11:20.360 My God, I only dream of having such a reach. Congratulations. Thank you. You've worked hard.
01:11:25.560 You've done the right things to be an engaging person, to have great guests. Now you have to think
01:11:31.500 twice. Do I want to lose all that? So what will you do? You'll do self-censorship, right?
01:11:35.920 So when the kid in class wants to say something that's positive about Trump, he has to decide,
01:11:43.240 should I say it? In which case the professor might grade me down in my grade. By the way,
01:11:48.980 in The Parasitic Mind, I publish anonymously several bits of letters that I receive from people,
01:11:56.520 from students, from professors, from parents of students, one of which was exactly this case,
01:12:00.680 which is a student had worked on a scientific paper for a while with his supervisor. The supervisor
01:12:06.360 found out that the student had said something mildly positive about Trump. He takes his name
01:12:12.820 off the paper. So this wasn't the government stopping you from speaking. The greatest danger
01:12:18.760 comes from creating a society where we will do the bidding of our attack of freedom of speech.
01:12:25.920 We self-censor, right? Now I happen to be someone who, for better or worse, I'm a honey badger. So
01:12:32.000 I never modulate my, and believe me, I've had, I used to get so many death threats that when I would
01:12:38.900 go to campus, I had to be accompanied by security. The university came with me to the Montreal police
01:12:46.860 to file a report because, and I had to bring a whole dossier with all the death threats. So there are
01:12:51.980 many costs you have to bear, irrespective of whether it's the government that's infringing
01:12:57.380 your freedom of speech. So I really get upset when people say, well, so what if YouTube demonetizes
01:13:02.900 you? That's not the government. That's not an infringement of freedom of speech. Well, no,
01:13:06.280 because the next time that I want to put something on COVID, I'm going to think twice as to whether I'm
01:13:11.300 going to say what I feel or not. So I completely agree with you. What you felt is exactly the type of
01:13:19.520 problem that we need to redress so that we can truly have a free and flourishing society.
01:13:25.480 Here's what I believe in. I believe the bully doesn't win long-term. I believe the bully creates
01:13:30.220 a bigger bully that whoops his ass in ways that it hurts him for many, many years to come.
01:13:35.440 That's what I believe in. Because, you know, when, when I sit with a lot of investment bankers,
01:13:43.220 who invest into different companies that I have. Okay. I was with one yesterday in Fort Worth,
01:13:47.200 and they manage around $28 billion, eight billionaires' money, $28 billion, one deal we're
01:13:52.160 doing, they're looking at investing with me. So I sit with them. And 90% of the conversation,
01:13:58.700 I crushed it. 10% of it, I'm like, wow, those questions I didn't have an answer for. I got to
01:14:05.180 work on that, right? Now, 10 years ago, when I sat with guys like this, 10% of it, I crushed it.
01:14:11.460 So I, you know, the other 90%, I had no clue what I was talking about. And it didn't lead to a lot of
01:14:17.560 business. So you get better over time. But what happens is when you bully, and you only want to
01:14:23.880 impose one way of thinking to an audience who has other ideas, you make their arguments stronger,
01:14:30.860 because they get to pick apart every single one of your argument. And then when they get the voice
01:14:36.240 back, when they get the mic back, that's not a pretty sight when they get the mic back. So I
01:14:41.820 believe that the fighters show up. I believe in the sheepdogs. I believe in the guys that eventually
01:14:47.740 wake up and say, yeah, that's kind of enough of you bullying. Let's kind of really show you who the
01:14:51.740 real bullies are. It's the guys that sit around quietly who bully bullies. And we're very good at
01:14:56.420 it. It's time to give that mic back. And you can still have a mic, but you cannot bully people moving
01:15:00.560 forward. You can give your ideas, but it's no longer being forced on. So I'm optimistic that what
01:15:05.260 happens long term is we're going to be taken care of. Are you in the same belief that that's
01:15:11.420 eventually going to be taking place? I do. So if you're asking me, am I optimistic that we'll be
01:15:15.900 able to address all these problems? I am. Otherwise, I wouldn't wake up in the morning with vigor and with
01:15:20.960 a smile on my face and with hope. You'd be thinking about Shaq when you woke up in the morning.
01:15:24.440 We don't want that. By the way, I love that you mentioned sheepdogs, because we're a family with
01:15:30.400 Belgian shepherds. So I don't know. I mean, you were a military guy. All of the commandos all have
01:15:35.040 Belgian shepherds. But we've had Belgian shepherds before. It was cool to be Belgian shepherds.
01:15:38.800 And let me tell you, I would rather walk into a tough neighborhood with a couple of Belgian
01:15:43.200 shepherds than with, you know, loaded with guns. I mean, these guys are so fierce. It's unbelievable.
01:15:47.420 But OK, coming back to your question, I am hopeful that there will be an autocorrective process where
01:15:54.400 those who are being bullied are going to rise up. The silent majority will speak out. But here's the
01:15:59.500 problem. We can either solve it today peacefully through dialogue, through the battle of ideas,
01:16:06.220 or we could solve it down the road in a much more violent way. So to go back to critical race theory
01:16:12.480 that you mentioned earlier, you know, people are not going to sit quietly forever as their children
01:16:19.540 are being taught in school that they suffer from dermatological original sin, as I call it,
01:16:26.220 because their skin you is white. Right. So we've we've taken the old racism against black people,
01:16:31.100 which was reprehensible then. And we've cloaked it in the robe of progressivism today, where it is
01:16:37.260 perfectly OK to be unbelievably racist to white children because, you know, bruh, systemic racism.
01:16:44.820 OK, so good, peaceful white people are one day going to wake up and say, I've had enough. Now,
01:16:52.640 do you want them to wake up peacefully by attending the parent teacher meetings or do you want them to
01:16:58.320 wake up in 40 years and be a lot more violent? The choice is yours. That's why I constantly get
01:17:02.860 engaged because I don't want to see violence. I want to see us defeating those other idiots in the
01:17:07.600 battle of ideas. Here's the challenge with that, though. The challenge with that is that most people
01:17:12.740 who are in power believe they will have their power a lot longer than they usually do. They don't
01:17:20.260 realize that you're eventually going to lose your power. It's just it's not permanent. Right.
01:17:24.700 Sonny Francis, who is the father of Michael Francis, a an infamous gangster who just died a year and a
01:17:33.460 half ago at the age of 104. And he goes way back. Sonny Francis feared, feared gangster back in the
01:17:39.560 days. He told his son something once. He said, listen, be very respectful to even the smallest,
01:17:46.840 weakest person today because who's in charge historically changes, who you who reports to
01:17:53.960 you today. One day you may be reporting to them. So just be respectful of everybody, whether they
01:17:58.640 have power, they don't have power. Unfortunately, today, the people of power today don't respect those
01:18:04.540 who don't have the power today. If they did, it'd be a different story. Well, hence the deplorable
01:18:09.740 argument of Hillary Clinton. Right. She thought she was a shoo-in for the presidency. And so she didn't
01:18:16.280 need to be respectful to those great unwashed rubes. They were deplorable. And then suddenly
01:18:21.900 it came back to haunt her. Now, rather than her having some humility and say, you know, I actually
01:18:26.980 was a useless candidate who made some serious faux pas. It was Trump. It was the Russians. It was this.
01:18:32.880 She had no humility to recognize her faults. But it speaks to exactly the point you made.
01:18:37.620 She thought she was guaranteed the power so she could denigrate those that are below her.
01:18:41.880 And, you know, what I like what Twitter did and YouTube and Facebook did is when she started
01:18:46.100 making claims that the election was a fraud when Trump won because of Russia, it was impressive
01:18:51.080 to see Twitter, YouTube and Facebook deplatform her. It was very impressive when that took place
01:18:56.940 with Hillary Clinton. Obviously, hence the sarcasm that never happened.
01:19:00.640 I was just thinking, I was trying to think, is he being sarcastic?
01:19:03.940 Because I don't remember her being deep. Well played, Grasshopper. Well played.
01:19:09.960 Well, listen, I got to tell you, 90 minutes went by like it's five minutes. I had a blast with you.
01:19:14.700 This was a lot of fun.
01:19:15.860 You are a fantastic guest.
01:19:17.620 I appreciate you for coming out. And I'm looking forward to the next time. Hopefully next time
01:19:21.720 I'm going to be face to face instead of over Zoom.
01:19:23.660 I look forward to it, brother. Thank you so much for having me on. It was lots of fun.
01:19:26.980 Anytime. And we're going to put the link below. So anybody that wants to go order his book,
01:19:30.400 his link's going to be below. Take care. Take care. Bye, bye, bye.
01:19:33.620 Bye.
01:19:34.060 I got to tell you, this was one of my favorite interviews of all time because we were laughing.
01:19:37.440 We were thinking. We were going, having a banter. You know, I was learning. Hopefully you were
01:19:43.000 learning. It was just an incredible conversation dialogue. Those are my favorite kind of dialogues
01:19:47.380 that we have. And if you enjoyed this interview, there's two other interviews I want you to watch.
01:19:50.580 One of them is with Jordan Peterson, where I interviewed him. This has got to be in front of six or
01:19:56.600 7,000 people at the same event where I interviewed President Bush and Kobe Bryant, the late
01:20:00.280 Kobe Bryant. If you haven't seen that, it's very deep. He gets emotional. And this was right before
01:20:05.680 he left for about a year, year and a half. Haven't seen it. You got to watch this. The other one was
01:20:09.500 with Daniel Lieberman. That was another one that we had a lot of fun left. And we talked about random
01:20:14.660 things. So either one of these, you're going to enjoy. Click on either one to watch. Take care,
01:20:18.520 everybody. Bye-bye.