Valuetainment - August 12, 2021


Why Is America Always At War？


Episode Stats

Length

1 hour and 19 minutes

Words per Minute

174.87518

Word Count

13,824

Sentence Count

982

Misogynist Sentences

6

Hate Speech Sentences

37


Summary


Transcript

00:00:00.000 I think the United States has been fighting far too much, and we've got to choose another path.
00:00:06.720 135 countries at least where the United States has gone to war.
00:00:11.540 Do you think we could have avoided all the wars that we had?
00:00:14.080 The United States is not safer, and the world is not safer because there are 750 bases around the world.
00:00:21.880 Why do you think we're in so many different places?
00:00:23.720 The Bush administration did not need to respond to those crimes with war.
00:00:29.380 The vast majority of people in Afghanistan had no responsibility for the attacks of 9-11.
00:00:34.300 You attack our land, and you want me to sit there and not do anything about it?
00:00:39.060 By giving them the war they wanted, that was an achievement for them.
00:00:43.180 ISIS is a product of the U.S. war in Iraq. We created ISIS.
00:00:48.600 Aren't we in too deep to play nice now?
00:00:54.460 My guest today is a professor at American University,
00:00:57.340 and he recently wrote a book called The United States of War,
00:01:00.080 A Global History of America's Endless Conflict from Columbus to the Islamic State.
00:01:06.000 David, thank you so much for being a guest on Vaitainment.
00:01:08.780 Patrick, I'm really thrilled. I'm excited for the conversation.
00:01:12.080 Yes, I am probably more excited than you are because this is something that I want to take a deep dive on.
00:01:18.700 So, David, for viewers who don't know your background, I mean, there's a lot of things you can write a book about.
00:01:24.440 You can write a book about Pokemon cards.
00:01:26.880 You can write a book about, you know, who's the greatest basketball player of all time.
00:01:30.260 You can write a book on, you know, caviar, studying the history of caviar.
00:01:36.040 What inspired you to want to write a book on the United States of War,
00:01:39.520 a global history of America's endless conflicts from Columbus to Islamic State?
00:01:42.980 In short, I think we have to stop fighting.
00:01:47.700 I think the United States has been fighting far too much for far, far too long,
00:01:53.100 and we've got to choose another path.
00:01:56.640 You know, more than a quarter of the country now has no memory of a time when the United States was not at war.
00:02:02.460 More than a quarter of the country cannot remember a day in their lives when the United States was not at war.
00:02:07.800 We've been at war for 20 consecutive years since the U.S. invaded Afghanistan in 2001.
00:02:13.460 And when I began research for this book, I thought this was fairly exceptional in U.S. history.
00:02:20.060 And I came to find that actually this is the norm in U.S. history,
00:02:23.840 that the United States military has been fighting in almost every year of U.S. history since independence.
00:02:29.980 All but 11 years, the United States military has been involved in some kind of a war or other form of combat.
00:02:35.980 And I put simply, we need to stop fighting this fighting, this really endless forever war that we've been fighting has not only damaged and taken the lives of millions of people around the world.
00:02:50.500 It's been, in ways that I think are often invisible to us, harming the vast majority of people in the United States in profound ways.
00:02:59.240 Did you say we've been at war with somebody from inception 1776 till today, except for 11 years?
00:03:05.500 That's right.
00:03:06.420 That's right.
00:03:06.760 And that's based on a list that the Congressional Research Service puts together, which I've updated with the help of others.
00:03:15.360 Yeah.
00:03:16.260 What were those 11 years?
00:03:20.840 There were a few years at the end of the 19th century, a few years during the Roosevelt administration, when he, in addition to the New Deal, brought into effect what he called the Good Neighbor Policy,
00:03:33.320 where he ended a long pattern of invading Latin American countries, in particular a few years in the late 1970s.
00:03:42.000 But, you know, by some accounts, the United States has never been at peace.
00:03:45.380 There are other, you know, CIA interventions, coups, other forms of warfare that the United States has been engaged in, arguably, in every year since independence.
00:03:56.340 And this is not a Democratic or Republican thing.
00:03:58.620 It's just our leaders like to go to war.
00:04:00.980 They just.
00:04:01.540 So do you think it's because our nature from day one, when we fought away, you know, from our independence from Britain,
00:04:10.440 it was kind of like in our nature to constantly be in that fight mode, that that's just in our genes, in the DNA, in the fabric of what America was founded on?
00:04:19.560 Or do you think some of it is like we're causing it and it's self-inflicted?
00:04:24.340 I think it's definitely self-inflicted.
00:04:26.340 I think it is deeply rooted in U.S. history, but it's definitely not in our genes or our DNA or in some sort of inherent U.S. American character.
00:04:38.560 I think there are patterns that were created and actually that predate the creation of the United States.
00:04:45.960 The history I tell in the United States of war goes back before the creation of the United States and shows how the United States emerged out of European empires that colonized the Western hemisphere, the Americas.
00:04:59.580 Specifically and most importantly, the U.S., of course, emerges out of the British empire, gains its independence from Britain, but models itself.
00:05:07.480 U.S. leaders model the United States after the European empires, and then they attempt to build an expansionist empire that came to conquer territories across North America.
00:05:20.320 And this put into place a system of permanent or almost permanent war.
00:05:28.100 It's important to point out that no war was inevitable.
00:05:30.940 No war is inevitable.
00:05:32.920 This is not a pattern that has to continue forever.
00:05:37.140 And that's why, you know, again, that's why I read this book.
00:05:39.760 You said what you just said.
00:05:40.620 You said no war is inevitable and no war can be avoided.
00:05:43.960 No war is inevitable and no, indeed, we can avoid future wars.
00:05:51.240 And that's why I wrote the book, because I think we need to choose a different path.
00:05:56.060 U.S. leaders have avoided wars in the past, often because large groups of people pressured them not to go to war, including sometimes members of the U.S. military.
00:06:06.180 And we need to choose a path.
00:06:09.160 Like I said before, we need to stop fighting.
00:06:11.280 We need to break this pattern.
00:06:13.880 And I believe we can do it, but we need to choose a fundamentally different course for this country.
00:06:20.060 Yeah, I'm looking at the stats right now when you said this.
00:06:22.220 So my mind went to budget, right?
00:06:24.320 OK, so 2020, our budget was $778 billion.
00:06:28.960 And we're at the top.
00:06:30.100 That's the Tista, the website, right?
00:06:31.820 Number two is China, $252 billion, which is about a third.
00:06:35.520 Then we got India is only $72 billion, which is less than a tenth.
00:06:41.040 And you have Russia, $61 billion, the 12th.
00:06:44.640 UK, $59 billion.
00:06:46.120 Saudi, $57 billion.
00:06:47.360 Germany, $53 billion.
00:06:48.580 And then France, Japan, South Korea, Italy, Australia, Canada, Israel.
00:06:52.160 Brazil at $20 billion, right?
00:06:53.420 And we're at $778.
00:06:56.260 Minimum, minimum.
00:06:57.440 That's a minimum, yeah.
00:06:58.180 And again, whatever statistics, not a left or right wing, it's like Gallup.
00:07:03.320 It's like Pew Research.
00:07:04.440 It's not the Times.
00:07:06.240 It's not the Wall Street Journal.
00:07:07.360 It's not Fox or CNN.
00:07:08.560 It's pretty relatively just giving you stats there.
00:07:11.700 Yeah.
00:07:13.460 So based on some of the stuff that you said, out of all the wars, like, you know, sometimes
00:07:17.860 when you're raising your kids, you try to do your, like the other day, my son got into
00:07:22.100 a big fight with a kid in school.
00:07:23.460 Pretty bad fight, nine-year-old.
00:07:24.800 So I sat down and I went and sat down with, spoke with them.
00:07:28.180 And I'm the guy that one of the affirmations we have with our kids is, one, we don't bully.
00:07:33.040 And two, we don't get bullied.
00:07:34.780 You need to stand up for yourself.
00:07:36.260 So, and our kids go to conservative school.
00:07:39.640 So, you know, it's like, well, we don't fight.
00:07:41.180 We don't do this.
00:07:41.940 And so everything is like, we love each other.
00:07:44.580 But so I'm also the guy that will say, that guy did that to you three times.
00:07:48.620 If you don't stand up for yourself, you ain't going to get video games for a month.
00:07:51.140 You better stand up for yourself because the last thing I want my kids to be is a bully.
00:07:54.860 And then, so he got into a fight, bad fight, comes back, scratches on his back, not looking
00:07:59.740 good.
00:08:00.360 Everyone's concerned.
00:08:00.980 He doesn't want to tell us what happened.
00:08:02.080 Finally, I told him what happened.
00:08:03.440 So he told me what happened.
00:08:04.680 I said, buddy, what you just did, this one's your fault.
00:08:09.040 Don't you think?
00:08:09.700 He says, no, daddy, this one's my fault.
00:08:11.140 I said, so you call that kid that word.
00:08:13.720 That's a pretty painful word.
00:08:14.780 He says, no, I know daddy.
00:08:15.980 I said, tomorrow, I want you to go apologize to this kid.
00:08:18.960 He says, you want me to apologize?
00:08:20.080 And this is not a kid that apologizes.
00:08:21.440 It's not easy for him to say, I'm sorry.
00:08:22.540 He's the guy that's very proud.
00:08:23.680 So, so he goes the next day and he apologizes.
00:08:27.520 I said, what happened?
00:08:28.420 He says, I, cause I told him, I said, if you apologize, if he continues to bully you,
00:08:32.000 you got to hit him in the face.
00:08:33.400 Okay.
00:08:34.160 But if you apologize to him and he forgives you, then you guys are going to become best.
00:08:38.620 I said, there's a 99% chance he's going to leave you alone.
00:08:41.140 And you guys will be friends.
00:08:42.240 He goes to school, tells the kid, I'm sorry.
00:08:45.360 Next thing you know, he says, we're best friends now.
00:08:47.240 So fantastic.
00:08:48.080 Great.
00:08:48.660 So we, as parents want our kids to avoid as many fights as possible.
00:08:52.200 You don't want to go to a bar and start a fight with anybody.
00:08:54.740 You know, you do it to the wrong person.
00:08:56.220 You can have a nose looking like mine.
00:08:57.380 It's not a good idea.
00:08:58.060 It's not a good look.
00:08:59.220 So here's the point.
00:09:01.000 How many of these wars that we had based on your research, based on your opinion, how
00:09:06.520 many of them could we have avoided?
00:09:07.960 I don't think it's possible we could have avoided all of them, but which one of them
00:09:11.760 based on your opinion and research could we have avoided?
00:09:14.520 I think almost all of them.
00:09:17.980 First of all, I hope your son is okay.
00:09:20.740 I'm sorry to hear about his fight.
00:09:23.920 He's actually doing great.
00:09:25.000 Thanks for asking, though.
00:09:26.320 Good, good.
00:09:27.880 No, I think it's important to point out that the vast majority of U.S. wars have been offensive
00:09:33.840 wars of choice.
00:09:34.980 When Japan attacked Pearl Harbor and other parts of the United States in 1941, this is
00:09:41.700 the exception in U.S. history.
00:09:45.060 Defensive wars are not part of our history.
00:09:48.720 Offensive wars, like the wars the United States has launched since 2001, are the pattern, are
00:09:54.360 the norm.
00:09:55.980 And so I think the United States could have and needs to make the avoidance of war its
00:10:03.520 foreign policy.
00:10:04.980 Needs to make peace building its foreign policy rather than assuming that there will be future
00:10:10.060 wars, which I think far too many leaders, civilian leaders, military leaders, assume.
00:10:15.780 They assume that the United States will be fighting in perpetuity.
00:10:19.020 And that's, in my mind, truly, truly frightening.
00:10:21.680 And that's a big part of the problem.
00:10:26.060 We could have avoided all of them.
00:10:27.700 Do you think we could have avoided all the wars that we had?
00:10:30.020 Again, I think the vast majority, you know, if you look at the list, and I mean, maybe it's
00:10:38.280 heard it's helpful to, let me just read a sample of the countries that the United States has
00:10:43.240 invaded and gone to war with in U.S. history.
00:10:46.340 Just start with our neighbors.
00:10:47.760 Mexico.
00:10:48.360 U.S. has gone to war with or invaded Mexico 10 times.
00:10:51.700 Canada, 11 times.
00:10:53.580 Panama, 24 times.
00:10:56.140 Peru, the Seminole, the Cherokee, Delaware, Greece, meaning the country of Greece.
00:11:02.020 The Apache, Turkey, Hawaii, of course, Nicaragua, Samoa, the Philippines, China, Honduras, Haiti,
00:11:10.360 Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, Afghanistan, Colombia, Libya, Niger, Yemen, Iraq, Kenya, Syria.
00:11:18.100 And the list goes on and on.
00:11:19.580 135 countries, at least, where the United States has gone to war.
00:11:24.260 Again, in 234 out of the 235 years in U.S. history.
00:11:30.260 And these have been wars of choice, often wars of expansion, often wars to protect economic
00:11:36.480 interests, to advance the economic interests of elites or businesses.
00:11:42.340 And these are wars that, by and large, have not benefited the vast majority of people in
00:11:47.900 the United States.
00:11:48.560 Yeah, I mean, would you agree that most people are for avoiding wars on all political ends?
00:11:56.960 Would you say most people, if they could avoid a war, they'd want to?
00:12:01.080 In a certain sense, yes.
00:12:03.280 I think that is something we can virtually all agree on.
00:12:06.940 But the actions of so many U.S. leaders seem, again, to assume that the United States will
00:12:16.020 continue to go to war and will fight essentially a forever war, as people often refer to it now.
00:12:23.660 And the choices U.S. leaders have made, beginning with the budget, and it's really important that
00:12:29.220 you pointed to the budget, the U.S. military budget is at least as large as the next 11 countries
00:12:34.880 combined, including China, as you pointed out.
00:12:38.100 But most of those 11 countries are actually U.S. allies.
00:12:41.500 These are not enemies.
00:12:43.780 The choices that U.S. leaders have made about beginning with the U.S. military budget has
00:12:49.960 actually made it more likely that the United States would go to war.
00:12:53.080 And one of the major arguments what I show in my book, The United States of War, is that in addition
00:12:59.760 to these huge military budgets, the pattern of building U.S. military bases abroad, the pattern
00:13:06.640 of building U.S. military bases on other people's territory outside the United States has actually
00:13:12.680 made it more likely the United States would go to war.
00:13:15.520 And this is a longstanding pattern that dates to independence.
00:13:18.340 But especially now, where the United States has around 750 military bases outside the 50
00:13:26.820 states in Washington, D.C., this is a permanent infrastructure of war.
00:13:30.640 In 70-plus countries, by the way.
00:13:32.320 So that's...
00:13:32.880 Exactly.
00:13:34.120 This is a permanent infrastructure of war that is making it more likely we're going to wage
00:13:38.720 more wars.
00:13:40.220 Yeah, I don't disagree there.
00:13:41.440 Because if you think about that, so let's just say we have 700 to 800 in 70-plus countries.
00:13:47.160 Have you done the research on how many bases China has outside of China?
00:13:52.660 I have.
00:13:53.240 I have.
00:13:53.780 And that is, again, a good comparison.
00:13:56.440 China has one base in Djibouti, one foreign military base in Djibouti.
00:14:00.100 It has five other bases on human-made islands in the South China Sea.
00:14:04.880 You could count bases in Tibet as well.
00:14:07.720 But a tiny handful of bases compared to this collection of 750 to 800 bases abroad that
00:14:15.800 the United States has maintained.
00:14:17.020 And we've had even more in the past.
00:14:19.320 And Djibouti is the choke point.
00:14:23.000 It's, you know, they're trying to protect the, let's just say, oil because they rely
00:14:26.520 70% of their oil.
00:14:27.640 They get it from there.
00:14:28.460 So that kind of makes sense.
00:14:30.140 Let's just say they want to protect themselves.
00:14:31.360 But of the 750 bases that we have, okay, that's kind of like renting a bedroom from, you know,
00:14:39.760 750 other families and living in their house to see what they're up to.
00:14:43.380 So is the wife good?
00:14:44.400 Is the kids are good?
00:14:45.420 Everybody's good?
00:14:45.900 Okay, good.
00:14:46.280 Okay, guys.
00:14:46.720 I'm just watching you guys.
00:14:48.080 You know, essentially, it's kind of like that.
00:14:50.360 You know, and obviously, some places we offer protection.
00:14:53.880 But if we were to, do you actually know the budget?
00:14:57.660 I'm assuming you would probably know the number on this.
00:14:59.540 How much does it cost us to keep those 750 bases active in those 80 plus countries?
00:15:05.700 Another great question.
00:15:07.160 Yeah.
00:15:07.780 As of my last estimate, around $51 billion a year.
00:15:12.900 $51 billion a year.
00:15:15.020 This is a huge budget.
00:15:16.480 It rivals that of the State Department and is larger than the budget of almost any government
00:15:23.480 agency other than the Pentagon itself and the Veterans Administration.
00:15:26.600 And this, again, shows you the priorities that U.S. leaders have put into place.
00:15:32.560 And again, it's part of what needs to change.
00:15:35.760 Why do we do that?
00:15:36.560 Why are we everywhere?
00:15:38.100 Are we the mother?
00:15:39.940 Are we the, you know, daddy?
00:15:41.580 We're looking out for everybody.
00:15:43.160 Are they asking us, are some of the countries safer because we're there?
00:15:47.120 Why do you think we're in so many different places?
00:15:50.000 Well, in short, I think the United States is not safer and the world is not safer because
00:15:56.700 there are 750 bases around the world.
00:16:00.340 I think in a whole variety of ways.
00:16:03.180 And there are people across the political spectrum who agree with me.
00:16:07.000 These bases are actually undermining U.S. security.
00:16:10.260 Most of these bases date to around World War II and the early days of the Cold War.
00:16:17.560 And in many ways, once they've been established, they've been extremely difficult to close.
00:16:23.760 We have not decided to put these bases around the world.
00:16:27.540 A small group of U.S. leaders, mostly white, male, elite dudes like me who work in the U.S.
00:16:34.920 government have decided to put these bases around the world.
00:16:39.140 And in a whole variety of ways, we could be protecting ourselves much more effectively.
00:16:44.040 We could be spending our military dollars more effectively, positioning our military
00:16:47.740 more effectively.
00:16:49.340 And we could be protecting ourselves against the real threats that face the United States,
00:16:54.740 beginning with, oh, I don't know, pandemic preparedness.
00:16:58.220 If we think, you know, if we just take in a portion of that $51 billion a year we spend
00:17:04.620 on military bases abroad, just maintaining them, if we'd spent a portion of that to prepare
00:17:11.300 for pandemics, to build adequate supplies of PPE, to provide universal health care, we just
00:17:19.220 imagine how many hundreds of thousands of lives we could have saved just in the COVID pandemic alone.
00:17:24.460 You know, that sounds noble when you say that.
00:17:30.240 And in every part of my body, I go to, okay, I get it.
00:17:35.200 I want to be noble as well.
00:17:36.180 That makes sense to me.
00:17:37.360 But then you hear the troops say, we're going to pull the troops from Afghanistan, the withdrawal.
00:17:40.880 You remember this one.
00:17:41.500 It was in April that we're talking about it.
00:17:43.360 And both Hillary Clinton and Condoleezza Rice on opposing ends, neither one of them supported
00:17:49.120 it.
00:17:49.320 They said, that's not a good move to make.
00:17:50.760 And we should stay there because if we pull out, things could get pretty ugly.
00:17:55.700 You know, it could be, you know, more war, more, you know, others could take over and
00:18:01.220 we're going to empower those guys.
00:18:03.080 Somebody may say, well, David, I'm all for your noble causes, but if we pull troops out
00:18:09.480 of all these different places and say everybody has to solve their own problems themselves and
00:18:15.380 a full-on war breaks out, proxy wars, manipulative wars, does that affect us at all?
00:18:22.160 And if it doesn't, okay, in what ways do you think it doesn't affect us?
00:18:26.100 But if it does, should we just stay there?
00:18:28.760 So first of all, I think, you know, Hillary Clinton and Condoleezza Rice should have very
00:18:34.120 little credibility when it comes to speaking on matters of foreign policy.
00:18:37.880 These are the architects of the last 20 years of war.
00:18:40.280 These are some of the architects of the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq and, for example, Libya,
00:18:45.940 which has turned into a terrible proxy war and, you know, a dissolved state effectively
00:18:53.120 in Libya that where Hillary Clinton was the leading light in launching that war.
00:18:59.980 The fact is we are in a state of warfare in many parts of the globe, wars that often the United
00:19:09.620 States military has launched or gotten deeply involved in, as well as proxy wars, and continuing
00:19:18.520 with the status quo is just going to continue these wars.
00:19:22.980 The United States needs to shift its emphasis from warfare to diplomacy, to trying to end these
00:19:29.580 wars diplomatically.
00:19:34.320 Yes, Afghanistan looks terrible right now, but the solution was not to just keep the United
00:19:40.940 States military in Afghanistan in perpetuity, which is essentially what we've been, well,
00:19:46.440 what U.S. leaders have been doing for the last 20 years.
00:19:49.820 Another path needs to be pursued.
00:19:52.920 And I'm glad the Biden administration announced the withdrawal of most, not all, U.S.
00:19:57.940 troops from Afghanistan.
00:19:59.680 But it needs to go much farther to try to reduce and minimize the violence and damage that is
00:20:06.620 going on there, as well as in the other war zones where the United States should rapidly
00:20:11.240 remove itself.
00:20:12.680 The two eras you said when the 11 years that we didn't have war, you said FDR was one of
00:20:19.020 them, I'm assuming you were talking about FDR, the new, so you were talking about him, and
00:20:23.260 then late 70s, I'm assuming you're talking about Carter.
00:20:25.820 Were you referencing Carter?
00:20:26.860 Okay, so Carter.
00:20:28.040 So do you think Carter, who I write about him in a book, his campaign was what?
00:20:34.420 It was human rights, right?
00:20:35.880 It was all about human rights, human rights, human rights, and it was looking at two main
00:20:38.980 countries, right?
00:20:39.820 One of them was Iran, one of them was Cuba, and extremely, I don't think there are many
00:20:44.980 people that would call this man a bad man.
00:20:48.560 He was a sweet man, smart man, intelligent man, but history says he wasn't the best president
00:20:53.500 we ever had.
00:20:54.140 He's typically on the bottom list of best presidents we had, not on the top.
00:20:57.460 FDR, different story.
00:20:58.400 You'll hear a lot of liberals will say FDR is maybe the greatest president we've had
00:21:02.000 in the last hundred some years, and many great arguments for it.
00:21:06.160 Some will say no, he changed the game, he brought taxes, he brought this, he brought
00:21:09.860 that, fine, but we've seen the FDR side.
00:21:13.600 Do you think Carter did a good job with his presidency, and if yes, which parts of it?
00:21:21.040 It's a good question.
00:21:22.060 Well, avoiding war, avoiding the launching of new wars, I think was absolutely an effective
00:21:29.120 part of his presidency, and if we just look at a death count, I think the United States
00:21:35.060 inflicted less damage on the war, excuse me, less damage through war on the world than
00:21:43.160 under other presidents, including Ronald Reagan, who followed President Carter, or
00:21:48.760 Presidents Ford and Nixon, who of course helped, you know, especially Nixon and Johnson
00:21:56.180 before him, beginning even earlier with President Kennedy, is so lauded, you know, the disaster
00:22:03.140 in Vietnam took somewhere between two and three million lives.
00:22:08.880 So I think just in terms of the damage inflicted, I think President Carter limited the damage
00:22:14.760 that the United States was inflicting.
00:22:16.820 Now, he also was responsible for getting the United States involved in Afghanistan.
00:22:21.260 The last 20 years of war really date to 1979, and the United States government trying to
00:22:27.760 lure the Soviet Union into what it described as the Afghan trap to give them their own Vietnam,
00:22:33.900 and indeed they did, and then under Presidents Carter and Reagan, the U.S. proceeded to back
00:22:40.440 the Mujahideen, a word that people have probably been hearing in recent days or weeks, the Taliban.
00:22:47.940 They've described themselves as Mujahideen, holy warriors.
00:22:51.860 Where do they come from?
00:22:53.640 They come from the CIA-backed campaign to challenge the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan in the 1980s.
00:23:01.740 And this, I think, shows us the kind of blowback that our longstanding policy has sown,
00:23:09.660 and I think it shows how counterproductive the longstanding foreign policy of the United States
00:23:15.920 has been, that it has often created new enemies, that the wars and proxy wars that you mentioned before
00:23:21.740 have actually created more millions, created more people who would use terrorist acts
00:23:27.460 against the United States and U.S. allies.
00:23:30.000 This policy has really done very little other than to ensure the perpetuation of permanent war.
00:23:38.920 Yeah, so, you know, when I look at Carter, Carter directly affected my life.
00:23:45.840 So, for example, I'm an October 1878 baby.
00:23:49.100 October 1878 is the peak of Iran revolution.
00:23:52.040 It's when Sinema Rex fire happened in Abaddon, Iran, right?
00:23:55.120 And Khomeini, through his tapes, has gotten millions of people in Iran that have been listening to this tape.
00:24:01.260 He's sending his tapes from Paris, France, when he was in exile there for many years.
00:24:05.780 And gradually, they're starting to turn against the Shah, right?
00:24:08.680 Now, Carter, who went there December 31st of 1977, and he had a toast with the Shah.
00:24:17.380 And, you know, he says, you know, the Middle East is a safer place because the Shah relationship is a great deal.
00:24:22.000 It just kind of built up the Shah, and it was very interesting.
00:24:24.920 And then leaves when the Shah needed help.
00:24:27.640 Kissinger and Carter didn't support.
00:24:29.420 They're like, no, leave him alone.
00:24:30.400 Let him do their own thing.
00:24:31.340 So, he kind of followed your playbook.
00:24:32.960 It's saying, well, guys, these guys got to figure out on their own.
00:24:35.920 You know, we can't send more troops.
00:24:37.300 We can't help them out.
00:24:38.560 And then let them handle their own problems.
00:24:40.960 So, okay.
00:24:42.660 Well, the Shah goes in exile.
00:24:44.880 Okay.
00:24:45.240 Khomeini comes and takes over.
00:24:47.140 Khomeini comes in and takes over.
00:24:48.920 All those political prisoners that the Shah had, the 3,000 of them, Carter asked them to release them.
00:24:54.000 He released them.
00:24:55.220 Many of them are today's communists and today's, what do you call it, the Al-Qaeda.
00:25:00.660 Many of them are ISIS who were there.
00:25:03.300 And a lot of the folks who had those ideas, we had them in prison.
00:25:06.420 But Carter wanted to release them.
00:25:08.120 He releases them.
00:25:09.600 The next 10 years, half a million lives.
00:25:11.740 Now, that's just not half a million lives in Iran.
00:25:13.640 But you're talking U.S., Iran, many other people.
00:25:15.660 And he did the same thing with Cuba.
00:25:18.280 And Cuba released 125,000 political prisoners that came to Miami on that Muriel boat lift.
00:25:24.080 And the unemployment of Miami went to 50% for 12 months.
00:25:27.020 There was no gas during that time.
00:25:28.540 Gas shortages.
00:25:29.700 Miami in the early 80s was not a place to be.
00:25:31.940 It was an ugly place to be.
00:25:33.040 But these were noble causes that Carter had.
00:25:36.300 So, sometimes for me, this is the feeling I get.
00:25:40.220 And I don't know who's right and who's not right.
00:25:42.480 So, a kid goes through a challenge.
00:25:44.780 So, my position may be stand up for yourself.
00:25:47.260 But a mother may say, baby, you don't need to fight if you don't need to fight.
00:25:51.160 Who's right?
00:25:52.180 I think they're both right.
00:25:54.120 But sometimes you're going to make the wrong decision.
00:25:57.180 You know, in some positions, you do need to stand up for yourself.
00:25:59.540 In some positions, you do need to let it go.
00:26:01.420 Some people, if you don't stand up for yourself, they're going to keep bullying you.
00:26:04.100 And they're going to come and take everything you have.
00:26:06.200 In some positions, if you, you know, you can have the opportunity to not even cost anybody's life.
00:26:11.240 You could have just been like, listen, let's figure this out.
00:26:12.760 Let's go in a room and talk for a few hours until we can negotiate something.
00:26:15.420 Let's just not go to work because people's lives are going to be lost.
00:26:18.320 Do you think there's a little bit of that contradiction where if somebody hasn't been in the room to see how ugly war is,
00:26:28.480 that there's actually bad people that want to kill you and your people.
00:26:32.220 There is actually bad people that will do anything to make your life a living kill.
00:26:36.220 And if you don't stand up to them, it's like what Reagan said.
00:26:38.700 We don't negotiate with terrorists.
00:26:39.760 They're going to come and take everything you got from you if they could.
00:26:43.080 So do you think there's a little bit of that contradiction in there where if you're too soft and you think it looks good long term,
00:26:48.540 you're going to cost, it could end up costing you a lot of lives?
00:26:52.200 No, I think, I mean, there are a few things I would wonder about and would want to see the evidence
00:26:58.980 that people released by the Shah in the 1970s became ISIS or became Al-Qaeda, I would want to see that evidence.
00:27:07.760 And similarly, my understanding of the Cuban migration to Miami is that actually the Miami economy was able to absorb large numbers of refugees,
00:27:19.540 people fleeing Cuba because essentially the more people who migrated actually created new economic opportunities.
00:27:25.740 But that's not the core of your question.
00:27:29.060 For your question, and I think in a way I would turn it back on you is to ask, you know, who is bullying the United States?
00:27:35.560 And more importantly, who is really a threat to the United States?
00:27:39.440 I think one of the longstanding problems we've seen since the 1970s and really throughout the Cold War,
00:27:46.040 but to this day is a kind of fear mongering about others, a kind of inflation of the threat of others.
00:27:53.280 The Soviet Union was another empire like the United States and did pose something of a threat,
00:27:59.080 but its threat was consistently exaggerated by U.S. leaders, especially U.S. leaders who wanted to inflate the size of military budgets,
00:28:07.720 let alone, you know, a small group of militants in the Middle East, which whether Al-Qaeda or another group,
00:28:16.020 they do not pose any kind of existential threat to the United States.
00:28:22.340 And inflating the threat of others is really a dangerous strategy that has really only created more trouble and more war over time.
00:28:36.480 So you don't think they pose any threat to the United States?
00:28:42.620 Who in particular?
00:28:44.260 The ISIS or Al-Qaeda?
00:28:46.240 I think they pose a very limited threat to the United States.
00:28:50.000 I think they pose a greater threat to the United States today than they did in 2001.
00:28:55.060 I mean, what is the last 20 years of war have had many effects.
00:28:58.740 15,000 U.S. military personnel dead, that's uniform personnel and contractors, hundreds of thousands coming back with PTSD, traumatic brain injuries.
00:29:11.040 The death toll in the war zones has been far, far worse.
00:29:15.020 It's three to four million people likely dead in Afghanistan, Iraq, Pakistan, Yemen, Syria, in the part of the war the United States has been involved in.
00:29:26.420 Tens of thousands, tens of millions injured in these war zones.
00:29:30.320 And $7 trillion, $7 trillion that the United States has spent on these wars in the last 20 years.
00:29:37.560 What has it produced?
00:29:38.280 In addition to all that death and suffering and what we didn't spend $7 trillion on, there are more militant groups now than there were in 2001.
00:29:47.180 This war has, in its own terms, been a complete and utter catastrophe and disaster.
00:29:53.660 And I don't think people, I mean, we went back to the 70s and Vietnam, I don't think people see the last 20 years of war in the same way they saw Vietnam as the disaster that it was.
00:30:07.860 The last 20 years of war has been at least as disastrous, at least as catastrophic for the United States, for the world, as the U.S. wars in Vietnam and Southeast Asia.
00:30:18.300 And I think we have to recognize that because, indeed, I think there are greater threats to the United States today than there were in 2001.
00:30:25.220 But I think they are still very minimal.
00:30:27.380 We're talking about a small group of people.
00:30:29.100 ISIS controls almost no territory now.
00:30:32.060 And al-Qaeda is a fraction of what it once was.
00:30:36.580 So I think it's really dangerous to over-inflate the problems and to respond to these problems with war.
00:30:43.060 That was the first mistake the Bush administration made.
00:30:45.780 The attacks of 9-11 took about 3,000 lives.
00:30:50.220 Terrible for the people affected, for the families affected, absolutely.
00:30:55.520 The United States, the Bush administration, did not need to respond to those crimes with war.
00:31:02.860 By invading a country that had no, I mean, the vast majority of people in Afghanistan had no responsibility for the attacks of 9-11.
00:31:09.820 The Taliban gave sanctuary to al-Qaeda, but was not involved in planning or orchestrating the attacks of 9-11.
00:31:17.320 The United States should have responded to those crimes of that day, September 11, 2001, as crimes, responded with criminal justice responses, with criminal justice agents.
00:31:29.560 How do you do that?
00:31:31.480 These are people that are willing to put their lives on the line to show your weakness.
00:31:41.020 These are people that, that's an achievement if you do that to them.
00:31:44.400 How are you going to get to the people that did what they did to U.S.?
00:31:47.840 No, that's, indeed, I think that the problem was that by giving them the war they wanted, that was an achievement for them.
00:31:56.460 In the past, U.S. governments have responded to terrorist crimes as crimes.
00:32:04.320 And research shows beyond the U.S., around the world, that responding with warfare tends not to be a very effective response to terrorist acts.
00:32:14.260 That responding with diplomacy, with intelligence gathering, with criminal justice responses is far more effective than war.
00:32:22.320 By giving al-Qaeda and Osama bin Laden a war, it gave them exactly what they wanted in a much larger platform for recruiting, for building their movement.
00:32:32.340 And I think the past 20 years shows how, what a disastrous choice that was.
00:32:38.980 Yeah, I mean, listen, Osama bin Laden bragged about the fact that he made America spend $3 trillion to kill him.
00:32:44.180 I mean, the guy's life was worth $3 trillion.
00:32:46.460 That's a lot of money for one guy.
00:32:48.620 So in reality, he won because he depleted America's bank account.
00:32:51.940 There's no question about that.
00:32:53.580 But going back to that.
00:32:55.100 And we should think about what, you know, the $3 trillion.
00:32:57.760 I don't disagree with you.
00:32:59.260 I totally agree with you, yeah.
00:33:00.520 But there's a part of that that's also America's foundation, you know, how America was founded.
00:33:07.380 Like, look at the movie, Saving Private Ryan.
00:33:09.540 So I'm from 101st Airborne Division.
00:33:11.160 We watched Saving Private Ryan before the world watched Saving Private Ryan because it was our unit.
00:33:15.240 So they brought us in an auditorium, 600 soldiers.
00:33:18.160 We watched, like, oh, my gosh, this is my unit.
00:33:20.400 We're all crying.
00:33:21.600 I'd do anything for my country.
00:33:22.900 But then afterwards, there was a debate.
00:33:26.360 Why sacrifice, you know, eight, nine, ten people's lives for a private just because he's the only one that's left in the family?
00:33:34.520 Why do we do that?
00:33:35.660 What was that all about?
00:33:36.880 That's not worth it.
00:33:38.200 Why take those guys' lives just because they have other siblings?
00:33:41.420 And that's a real debate, by the way.
00:33:43.020 Somebody can sit there and say, you kind of didn't make a point here.
00:33:46.800 But no, because this family cannot continue.
00:33:48.940 And that mom and dad sacrificed their two sons that went there.
00:33:51.700 One is no longer around.
00:33:52.560 One of them is.
00:33:53.040 We got to go save this Private Ryan kid.
00:33:55.340 So it's a great discourse when it goes back and forth.
00:33:58.280 But that's, you know, what we were founded on.
00:34:01.120 That's America's foundation.
00:34:02.320 So part of this is you attack our land and you want me to sit there and not do anything about it?
00:34:09.340 And, okay, if I send crime, like treat them as criminals, oh, my gosh.
00:34:15.220 I mean, that's exactly what they're looking for.
00:34:18.840 Because, you know, one guy was talking about there was this debate taking place on war between America and Middle East.
00:34:28.340 It was a strong debate.
00:34:29.460 And one fellow said, you know why, you know, Al-Qaeda, ISIS, these guys are not afraid of the U.S.?
00:34:36.460 They said, why?
00:34:37.020 He says, because America's culture is very forgiven.
00:34:40.800 We're not forgiven.
00:34:42.180 We're going to avenge.
00:34:43.460 We're going to come after you.
00:34:44.840 And we're going to get you for what you did for us.
00:34:46.560 So meaning, let's just say today we start becoming noble as a country.
00:34:51.000 Okay?
00:34:52.040 You all of a sudden decide to become a noble nation.
00:34:54.980 Hypothetically, we become a noble nation today.
00:34:57.080 Guys, we're going to be noble.
00:34:58.200 Pull everybody out.
00:34:59.000 750 units.
00:35:00.360 You're coming on.
00:35:00.920 We're going to save that $51 billion.
00:35:02.420 We don't need to be invading.
00:35:03.840 We're all back home.
00:35:04.720 Let's put the money in a different place.
00:35:05.980 We don't need to do this anymore.
00:35:07.180 Fine.
00:35:07.920 We bring the budget down from $770 billion to, say, $150 billion.
00:35:11.700 Let's match China.
00:35:12.760 $250 billion.
00:35:13.680 We save ourselves a half a trillion dollars.
00:35:15.760 Fine.
00:35:16.940 How many enemies have we killed?
00:35:20.040 How many people are, you know, preparing their vengeance against us?
00:35:24.440 You think they've forgotten?
00:35:25.740 You think they've forgotten how many kids' lives were taken?
00:35:30.580 You think there's people there that lost a brother, a daughter, a wife, a family member,
00:35:38.120 a father, that's a six-year-old kid that's now 22 years old for 16 years.
00:35:42.860 All he's been thinking about is America is the enemy.
00:35:45.640 I'm going to get you.
00:35:47.040 I know people like, I lived around these types of people when I was in Iran for 10 years.
00:35:51.680 You can say, listen, we don't want to fight anymore.
00:35:54.040 We're so sorry.
00:35:55.200 We're going to play the noble card right now.
00:35:57.260 Dude, I don't care what you're going to do.
00:35:59.020 You killed my dad.
00:36:00.140 I'm going to do whatever I can to ruin your life.
00:36:01.880 So part of me wants to say, David, noble.
00:36:05.980 There's the other part of me that says, aren't we in too deep to play nice now?
00:36:11.260 I think, you know, I think the picture you're painting is one that is a recipe for perpetual
00:36:21.380 war forever.
00:36:22.700 That, yes, we need to protect ourselves under any circumstances.
00:36:27.280 We need to have a U.S. military.
00:36:28.860 It should be focused on protecting U.S. citizens and protecting the borders of the United States,
00:36:34.800 not on creating an offensive platform for war that has military bases around the world
00:36:40.660 and is ready to launch wars on a moment's notice, which is what we have now.
00:36:45.800 And I think what the recipe that you're describing is just going to produce more people like that
00:36:52.480 16-year-old whose father was killed, who wanted to do violence against U.S. citizens
00:36:58.540 or the United States.
00:36:59.620 I think we need to choose another path.
00:37:03.260 The last 20 years of war has just created more people who would wish to inflict harm on
00:37:10.180 the United States, both by killing, frequently assassinating militants, but frequently by taking
00:37:18.480 the lives of innocent civilians who then have had a grudge against the United States.
00:37:24.480 This strategy that the United States has been pursuing has been completely counterproductive
00:37:30.380 and has really put us at more risk as U.S. citizens and as a country.
00:37:35.120 And that's what needs to change.
00:37:36.760 Yeah, there's a part of me that doesn't disagree with that.
00:37:39.840 I won't sit there and say, listen, all this shit you guys did before us, we're putting
00:37:44.500 up, it's like all this spending, all this money you guys keep spending, all these stimulus
00:37:47.860 you keep giving away thinking it's a good thing.
00:37:49.680 You print 40% of all the money that's been printed in the history of America was printed
00:37:53.600 the last 15 months.
00:37:54.740 Okay, who the hell is going to pay that back?
00:37:57.100 Who's going to pay that back?
00:37:58.200 I mean, inflation, oh, it's just going to last a few more months.
00:38:01.020 No, it's not.
00:38:01.660 You can only keep interest rates so low for so long.
00:38:03.560 No matter what Powell is talking about or Yellen is talking about, we're going to pay
00:38:07.540 a price for this.
00:38:08.500 Stuff is going to go up.
00:38:09.620 People are going to be one day waking up saying, how am I supposed to keep up in a marketplace?
00:38:14.080 So what I am saying is if you take that position of 270, 200 and how old are we?
00:38:22.180 72, whatever, 245 years of playing the tough guy and I dare you to do something.
00:38:29.860 I'm going to whoop your, you know what, if you come after me and watch what we're going
00:38:32.600 to do to you, watch what, if we play that role, I think it's very hard to get away from
00:38:42.000 that and play the amicable role because you may be the current person that may be noble,
00:38:47.700 but I'm not upset at you.
00:38:49.360 I'm upset at your father.
00:38:50.420 I'm upset at your grandfather.
00:38:51.460 I'm upset at the president before you or the four presidents before you.
00:38:55.100 So how do we go about, so let's have the conversation with ISIS.
00:38:58.720 Let's have the conversation with China.
00:39:00.460 Let's have the conversation with these countries.
00:39:01.900 How do you have that conversation with them and be a diplomat?
00:39:04.380 Who does it?
00:39:05.040 Biden does it?
00:39:06.680 Who does that?
00:39:08.000 Obama does that?
00:39:09.380 You dedicated as much energy and resources.
00:39:14.520 You actually don't need to dedicate as much resources because diplomacy is quite cheap compared
00:39:20.960 to weapon systems that often we don't need.
00:39:24.040 There's just sinkholes of literally billions of dollars.
00:39:27.540 You dedicate money to diplomacy, to the State Department, from Biden on down, a whole range
00:39:38.540 of people dedicated to resolving conflicts peacefully and diplomatically and shift money away from
00:39:46.680 this war machine that we've built.
00:39:49.160 So otherwise, we are going to just continue.
00:39:52.720 And again, I would point to periods in U.S. history when U.S. leaders have chosen different paths.
00:40:00.880 Again, Roosevelt, Franklin Delano Roosevelt.
00:40:05.720 He had this good neighbor policy.
00:40:08.280 While people are talking about a Green New Deal, I think we should also bring back Roosevelt's good
00:40:14.260 neighbor policy and what were the tenets of his good neighbor policy.
00:40:18.540 It was, you know, as the name suggests, being a good neighbor to people in the Western
00:40:23.680 hemisphere and around the world.
00:40:25.300 It meant renouncing armed intervention in other countries.
00:40:30.100 It meant renouncing the right to intervene in the affairs of other countries and other peoples.
00:40:36.240 And I think, you know, again, the sort of portrait of the world you're depicting of people who are
00:40:45.940 aggrieved at the United States, it isn't accurate.
00:40:49.000 There are thousands of people like that because of the last 20 years of war and because of even
00:40:54.940 longer history.
00:40:57.000 But those, you know, individuals aggrieved against the United States, that is not a threat.
00:41:03.800 And that should not be the basis for our foreign powers.
00:41:06.560 Are you kidding me?
00:41:07.600 Are you?
00:41:07.940 Come on, David.
00:41:08.600 We can't be naive.
00:41:10.200 I mean, you know, do we need a thousand people?
00:41:13.060 You've written a lot about the Holocaust, haven't you?
00:41:15.320 You've been writing about the Holocaust for a long time, right?
00:41:18.580 I mean, I've seen articles about from what you've written about the Holocaust.
00:41:22.540 So for you, let's just say about your family was directly impacted by it, no?
00:41:27.360 By the Holocaust?
00:41:28.600 Yeah.
00:41:28.900 Okay, so how many Hitlers do you need?
00:41:34.600 You don't need thousands.
00:41:35.880 You only need one that is dedicated to his vengeance.
00:41:41.740 And that cost millions of people's lives.
00:41:44.440 So, you know, they asked Fidel, if you wanted to create your revolution again, how many thousands
00:41:49.520 of believers would you need?
00:41:51.400 He said, I would only need one other true believer who believes in 100% of what I want
00:41:54.960 to do.
00:41:55.180 I would still do the same exact thing I did right now.
00:41:57.160 So did Hitler.
00:41:58.140 So it doesn't take thousands of people who are upset at America.
00:42:02.780 It just takes a handful of people that are such true believers that if they want to retaliate,
00:42:08.600 9-11 is a circus act compared to what they can do next on the kind of events you want to do.
00:42:14.780 Again, I'd be really wary.
00:42:16.980 And I think we need to be really careful about our assessment of threat and our assessment
00:42:24.020 of risk.
00:42:25.800 You know, Hitler was a risk because he was the most powerful person and led a very large
00:42:32.340 country that had a very large and powerful economy and a military force that he built
00:42:38.780 up, that is a threat.
00:42:40.640 That is a legitimate threat.
00:42:43.340 But an individual with crazy beliefs on their own is not a threat, not a threat that needs
00:42:50.980 to be taken seriously at the level of designing our foreign policy around.
00:42:56.080 So that I think we need to be really careful in assessing threats and be careful about exaggerating
00:43:03.460 the threats posed by other individuals or even groups of people.
00:43:08.520 people, because by inflating threats that really don't pose the risk that some people might
00:43:16.880 say, we tend to invest money in, again, in our military and warfare that could be much
00:43:25.980 better spent addressing the real threats facing the United States, again, like pandemics, like
00:43:31.700 the epidemic of homelessness or hunger in this country.
00:43:35.140 You know, these are demonstrable problems and threats or, you know, the decrepit state of
00:43:41.780 our public school system.
00:43:43.640 These are real threats and things that people are living with every day, and they are not
00:43:48.040 being addressed when we're spending trillions of dollars on war.
00:43:52.200 You know, when you're a kid living in a country where you watch outside the window and you see
00:44:00.140 tens of thousands of grown men flagellating their backs with a streak of blood on the
00:44:05.020 streets and they're screaming Matic bat on recall, you will have a different perspective of what
00:44:09.520 threat really is all about because you personally witness it.
00:44:13.360 When you go to Germany and you live at a refugee camp for a couple of years and you kind of
00:44:18.520 see how they view the Middle East and how Iran views USA, you kind of get a different perspective.
00:44:27.100 When you, it's kind of like, there's a couple of things that I believe in.
00:44:32.200 You don't have to agree with this.
00:44:33.280 But for me, like, I don't think a person to become a president of the United States, if they've never
00:44:39.380 ran a small business, that they had to hire and fire people, or if they've never been in the military, I
00:44:44.900 don't think you're qualified to be the president.
00:44:46.440 Now, that's me.
00:44:47.520 Why do I believe that?
00:44:48.660 Because if you've never been in the military, how do you know what my life looks like?
00:44:51.760 How do you know what I do?
00:44:53.000 You're the commander in chief.
00:44:54.220 Maybe we need to, you're the president, but maybe we need to have a general that's in
00:44:57.820 charge of the military.
00:44:58.640 You should not have any rights.
00:44:59.680 So if a president ever becomes a president who's never been in the military, you're just
00:45:03.500 the president.
00:45:03.980 You are required to hire somebody that runs the military and he gives you advice, but
00:45:09.020 he's the decision maker with the military.
00:45:10.760 Now, because you've never been in the military before.
00:45:12.940 You may have 150 million followers on Instagram or Twitter, but you've never been in the military.
00:45:17.300 The same as goes as if you've never ran a business, you don't know the pains of putting
00:45:20.760 money into business.
00:45:21.720 You don't know the pains of losing your job.
00:45:23.600 If you've been a lifelong politician, you're not ready to be a president and understand
00:45:27.220 what it is to be a small business owner.
00:45:28.740 So for me, these types of matters are extremely noble.
00:45:34.060 I would love for your vision to become a reality as long as the other side doesn't give birth
00:45:42.080 to the next aid of, which history tells us it is filled with men like that who were fully
00:45:48.780 ambitious to go after regimes like ours.
00:45:52.140 And it's very exciting and easy to propose some of these things while it's pretty safe.
00:45:58.920 Like, for example, I would assume you would probably call Trump a peace president because
00:46:04.260 of what he did with Israel and Palestine.
00:46:05.840 Something that no other president could do for 25 years.
00:46:09.060 And under his presidency, I don't think we heard about ISIS a single time versus the
00:46:13.340 past 20 years prior to him.
00:46:15.220 All we ever heard about was ISIS.
00:46:17.020 I mean, I think under Obama and Bush, it was ISIS, ISIS, ISIS.
00:46:20.040 So you probably, in your notion, you would probably put Trump in the same level as Carter
00:46:25.180 and FDR, would you?
00:46:27.160 No, no.
00:46:28.200 I mean, Trump was a disaster in so many ways.
00:46:30.680 There were a few ways in which he, especially when it came to foreign policy, he took some
00:46:37.420 helpful steps.
00:46:39.860 He talked about wanting to end the endless wars.
00:46:42.420 He didn't.
00:46:43.320 But he didn't start a new war, which was an improvement over his predecessors, President
00:46:48.780 Obama and President Bush.
00:46:52.020 You know, I would just say, you know, it's not just about being noble or pursuing a foreign
00:46:57.640 policy or a way of engaging with the rest of the world that's noble.
00:47:02.600 This, you know, from a self-interested perspective, we need to choose a different path.
00:47:07.340 I mean, let's look at ISIS, which you've mentioned.
00:47:09.760 ISIS is a product of the U.S. war in Iraq.
00:47:13.960 ISIS did not exist prior to the U.S. invasion and war in Iraq.
00:47:18.920 We created ISIS.
00:47:20.680 This is, you know, the recipe of permanent bullying and permanent war is only going to
00:47:27.000 create more ISISs.
00:47:28.400 It's only going to make it more likely that the kinds of, you know, leaders that you're
00:47:34.580 you're concerned about, that they might come to come to power and have some some following.
00:47:40.340 We need to choose a different path unless we want to be fighting it forever.
00:47:46.620 And let me just say another thing, because I don't want to sort of get caught in a cycle
00:47:52.480 of disagreement.
00:47:54.800 You know, the United States is an empire.
00:47:57.400 United States has been an empire.
00:47:58.880 No, it is.
00:47:59.760 It is an empire.
00:48:01.040 Yeah.
00:48:01.260 It has been an empire virtually since independence and shortly after independence.
00:48:06.540 It's an empire that conquered territory across North America, conquered territories outside
00:48:11.620 North America in the years that followed.
00:48:14.460 Empires don't last forever.
00:48:16.840 Empires don't last forever.
00:48:18.180 And this empire is going to come to an end sooner or later.
00:48:22.080 And my fear is that by continuing to pursue this path of permanent war, we're just bringing
00:48:29.420 about the end of our empire more and more rapidly.
00:48:33.420 We're making it more likely that we are going to dissolve as an empire and perhaps as a nation
00:48:39.100 in either bankruptcy or a catastrophic and even more catastrophic war or both.
00:48:45.220 And that's the path we're on now.
00:48:48.680 We have a choice and can wind down our empire and choose another path, not just out of nobility
00:48:54.560 or for nobility's sake, but because we want to protect ourselves.
00:48:58.840 We want to protect the well-being of people in the United States.
00:49:01.620 And we want to protect people around the world rather than harming ourselves and harming people
00:49:07.580 around the world in the profound ways that we have for the last 20 years alone.
00:49:12.200 So, so David, just out of curiosity, so how, let's just say we, we shut down the 750, let's
00:49:19.360 say we're out, we're back here.
00:49:21.260 What do you do with reinvesting of the money?
00:49:24.800 Would you say we have way too many soldiers?
00:49:26.480 Would you cut down on the amount of soldiers that we have in America?
00:49:29.140 Would you cut down on active duty?
00:49:30.800 Would you say we don't need as many active duty and Navy, Army, Air Force, whatever that
00:49:39.060 we have?
00:49:39.560 Do we go much lower?
00:49:40.640 What do we do with that money?
00:49:43.520 Yeah.
00:49:43.980 So, well, first of all, I think there, we should have a conversation about the appropriate
00:49:48.580 size of the U.S.
00:49:49.960 military, especially after withdrawing from Afghanistan.
00:49:53.820 And as my hope is, as we withdraw ourselves from and end the other endless wars.
00:50:01.900 But in the short term, we can close bases abroad and bring troops and family members, remember
00:50:08.920 there are hundreds of thousands of family members abroad as well, bringing them back
00:50:12.580 to the United States where they would benefit local economies, bringing troops back from
00:50:17.660 Afghanistan and from Germany and from Italy, from South Korea, from Japan, bringing them
00:50:24.960 back to Florida, bringing them back to California, bringing them back to Texas, actually benefits
00:50:29.860 those local economies.
00:50:30.960 And there is excess infrastructure in the United States to accommodate them.
00:50:36.580 We take money saved by closing bases abroad, I think first and foremost, we have to look
00:50:43.580 at needs that have been neglected for far too long, again, beginning with pandemic preparedness,
00:50:49.000 with health care, with ending homelessness in this country, ending hunger in this country,
00:50:54.840 improving our public school system, providing more opportunities for people to go to college.
00:51:01.580 And at the same time, we can be spending money on the military in far wiser ways, both in terms
00:51:08.080 of where we invest in infrastructure, and in the investments we make in weaponry.
00:51:14.920 I mean, we're, you know, F-35, this complete boondoggle that's created a plane that mostly
00:51:21.000 can't fly, can't engage in combat, but has cost billions and billions of dollars that mostly
00:51:28.120 has gone into the pockets of Lockheed Martin.
00:51:30.560 This is just a symbol of the problem that is the military industrial complex or military
00:51:35.840 industrial congressional complexes, as Eisenhower initially called it, and this hasn't been
00:51:41.680 part of the conversation.
00:51:42.720 But part of the reason we are trapped in this system of permanent war and this sort of warfare
00:51:48.620 state is because since World War II in particular, US leaders have created and fed a military industrial
00:51:58.040 congressional complex that has led us astray, that has led us down a path of permanent war,
00:52:04.440 that has benefited the weapons manufacturers and kept them nice and happy while neglecting
00:52:12.440 human needs that are so painfully felt by so many people in this country.
00:52:17.320 And I want to, I want to believe what you're thinking is possible.
00:52:22.040 I want to believe what you're thinking is possible because my, my, my, well, let me ask you a different
00:52:27.560 question.
00:52:28.660 What do you think about with the way some of our, who would you say America's number one
00:52:33.460 enemy is today?
00:52:34.080 I'm curious out of your research in the military, if you were to say our top three enemies today,
00:52:37.720 not even enemies, concerns, let's call them concerns, not direct enemies.
00:52:41.380 Number one country would be this, number two would be this, number three would be this.
00:52:44.280 Yeah, one is one that I haven't mentioned yet, global warming, climate change.
00:52:50.520 Two, I would say is, is, is health, health, the, the awful state of health in our country.
00:52:57.980 And number three would probably be education.
00:53:01.660 I, I don't, I don't think we should be thinking about the world as, as, as filled with enemies.
00:53:07.560 The vast majority, I mean, yes, there are leaders of other countries who engage in horrific
00:53:12.540 and terrible acts, we should, we should condemn them.
00:53:16.220 But the vast majority of people in, for example, uh, Iran or China or North Korea have nothing
00:53:24.840 to do with the actions of their, or, or decisions of their, their, their leaders.
00:53:29.780 Um, they are not, you know, 1.3 billion people in China.
00:53:34.720 They're not my enemy.
00:53:35.600 I'm not talking about it.
00:53:36.460 Are there leaders in the, are there leaders in the communist party who are responsible for
00:53:40.340 terrible human rights abuses, uh, and other horrific acts?
00:53:44.320 Yes.
00:53:45.020 Um, and I, I don't, I don't like them.
00:53:47.080 Um, similarly, I don't like us leaders who have been responsible for millions of deaths,
00:53:53.220 tens of millions of people.
00:53:55.780 I agree.
00:53:56.120 I totally agree with you.
00:53:57.780 Like, you know, you're right.
00:53:58.900 So for example, a governor Cuomo, right?
00:54:01.460 Okay.
00:54:01.820 All those lives that were lost in New York, uh, in the nursing home.
00:54:05.100 So you're right.
00:54:05.740 So he does that.
00:54:07.080 And let's just say, uh, New York says everybody has to be vaccinated or else you can't have
00:54:12.500 the keys to New York.
00:54:13.520 De Blasio says that, right?
00:54:14.880 Okay, fine.
00:54:16.120 So, but that's not New York.
00:54:17.420 That's the governor of New York.
00:54:18.780 That's imposing those laws, right?
00:54:20.520 You know, uh, mayor Villagrosa says, if you see anybody in the streets during the pandemic,
00:54:26.120 we're going to give it $200.
00:54:27.480 If you can tell us who's out there.
00:54:29.200 Okay.
00:54:29.620 I may not run it that way, but that's how he runs it.
00:54:31.980 I don't think the people of LA are bad, but I think Cuomo made bad decisions.
00:54:36.200 I think Villagrosa made bad decisions.
00:54:38.400 You can look at different governors that made bad decisions in different States.
00:54:41.660 I don't say, you know, Florida is bad.
00:54:43.860 Texas is bad.
00:54:44.440 Illinois is bad.
00:54:45.080 California is bad.
00:54:45.680 New York is bad.
00:54:46.720 It's the leaders at the top that are making the decisions.
00:54:48.560 One doesn't have say for what De Blasio is going to do.
00:54:51.640 If De Blasio says that, if you disagree with them, you can't say anything about it.
00:54:55.520 Those are the rules that he's, uh, uh, selling to the people.
00:54:58.500 But what I'm asking you is which countries do you see as U S's enemies, not the people
00:55:04.400 who live in that country, but the leaders who run those countries, which ones concern
00:55:08.060 you?
00:55:09.320 Again, I think I am a little cautious of this framing of enemies because so often this has
00:55:14.560 been used to, to demonize, not just leaders, but entire populations.
00:55:20.740 I mean, this is part of why we, part of why we've seen growing anti-Asian, anti-Asian
00:55:26.560 American sentiment in this country.
00:55:29.240 Um, because of the demonization of China writ large, people don't say the Chinese communist
00:55:35.420 party rarely, or the Chinese government.
00:55:37.920 They tend to just say China.
00:55:39.800 And then we tend to think of the entire country as our enemy.
00:55:43.680 This is what happened during the cold war.
00:55:46.100 People, I grew up thinking that Russians were my enemy and they weren't my enemy.
00:55:51.760 There were Soviet leaders and like U S leaders who were responsible for fueling the cold war.
00:55:58.540 You don't think it's easy to know which personalities we have to look out for.
00:56:03.220 Like, absolutely.
00:56:04.440 But, but I think we should be, we need to be really specific about which.
00:56:07.660 Just give the name, don't give the country, just give the name.
00:56:10.520 Like who are top three influential, uh, world leaders you worry about outside of America.
00:56:16.360 Yeah, I think that the Chinese government is, is obviously the next most powerful government
00:56:23.280 in the world.
00:56:24.280 So, so there are things to be concerned about, about the Chinese government, similarly, the
00:56:29.320 Russian government powerful, but pale both governments, both countries, they pale in comparison
00:56:36.720 to the power of the Soviet union during the cold war.
00:56:39.120 It's important to point out people again, are, are, are creating China as a whole into a threat
00:56:45.700 that, that, that it does not represent.
00:56:47.540 It does not have the military power that the Soviet union had is not a global military
00:56:53.540 power.
00:56:54.540 The way the Soviet union was does not pose.
00:56:56.580 Had had like past tense.
00:57:01.000 That's right.
00:57:02.000 That's right.
00:57:03.000 Um, because Soviet union dissolves, you know, 30 years ago.
00:57:06.500 Yep.
00:57:07.500 Um, Russia similarly has nothing other than nuclear weapons.
00:57:12.360 It does not represent anything like the threat that the Soviet union, uh, posed.
00:57:17.360 And again, that's part of why I'm concerned about the framing of enemies, because again,
00:57:23.240 it, it tends to encourage people to sort of turn their, their brains off.
00:57:27.200 I fear, um, to just sort of think with fear clouding their minds, rather than thinking
00:57:33.400 about, okay, let, let's assess the relative threat that this country and its military, for
00:57:38.440 example, or other parts of its, its government, like cyber, it's cyber threat.
00:57:43.760 What threat does it actually pose to us and how can we protect ourselves and how can we respond?
00:57:49.200 Uh, I think, you know, so much of our foreign policy is, is, is, is guided by, by fear and
00:57:56.060 often fear mongering, the exaggeration of threat, um, rather than a careful analysis of, of what
00:58:03.200 threats are, are, are out there in the world and, and putting them into a larger spectrum
00:58:08.920 of threats that include threats like global warming.
00:58:12.200 Um, they're distracting us from addressing threats like global warming that, that are,
00:58:17.200 are truly existential threats that, that as a world, we need to, we need to work with
00:58:22.640 China.
00:58:23.640 We need to work with China and Russia and other governments around the world to address the
00:58:27.880 threats that are facing all of us.
00:58:30.000 Otherwise all this fear mongering is just going to lead to more war, more conflict, more tension
00:58:35.600 that distracts us from addressing the real threats, the real problems that are facing all
00:58:40.120 of us.
00:58:41.120 Yes.
00:58:42.120 How do you do that?
00:58:43.120 If we don't, uh, lead and govern by the same values and principles?
00:58:47.120 I mean, you would agree that you, you don't support the way the CCP governs their people,
00:58:53.120 right?
00:58:54.120 Correct.
00:58:55.120 Okay.
00:58:56.120 So, you know, for them, they're more about controlling their populace.
00:59:02.880 We're more about freedom of speech.
00:59:05.080 We're more about free press.
00:59:06.740 We're more about, look, we can sit there and argue all.
00:59:09.040 We can, there's a, there's a business model for making fun of presidents in America.
00:59:12.400 I mean, let's face it.
00:59:13.200 It's just comedians do better.
00:59:15.040 If the president is more funny, you know, if it's easier to make fun of them, you can
00:59:18.280 become famous.
00:59:19.040 If you can make fun of the president, you do that in China.
00:59:22.040 If you do that in China, you, you, you can have a very short lifespan if you do that.
00:59:26.040 But it, to me, the basis of negotiation is based on you and I sharing common values and
00:59:32.040 principles.
00:59:33.040 If you and I share common values and principles, we can negotiate.
00:59:37.040 If you and I don't share common values and principles, it's mathematically impossible to
00:59:42.040 negotiate.
00:59:43.040 Because for example, here's one of the concerns I have with America versus China.
00:59:49.040 Okay.
00:59:50.040 And I'm curious to know what you say about this.
00:59:52.040 I actually, I'm actually really curious what you say about this.
00:59:56.040 So David, are you by any chance married?
00:59:59.040 I am.
01:00:00.040 I don't know if you are married or not.
01:00:01.040 I'm not.
01:00:02.040 Okay.
01:00:03.040 I'm married.
01:00:04.040 So I'm married and I have four kids, right?
01:00:05.040 I got a nine, seven, five, and I just had a new one five weeks ago, newborn.
01:00:09.040 Okay.
01:00:10.040 So our family is very busy and it's loud.
01:00:11.040 Thank you.
01:00:12.040 It's loud.
01:00:13.040 It's crazy.
01:00:14.040 I quit sleep.
01:00:15.040 Last time we had sleep was a decade ago, but so my wife and I, we get into fights,
01:00:21.040 many fights, husband and wife.
01:00:23.040 You're going to get into a lot of fights, arguments.
01:00:26.040 I can only imagine what would happen to my personal life.
01:00:29.040 If my wife and I fought and we had Facebook live on the entire time, it'd be very entertaining.
01:00:35.040 It'd get millions of views.
01:00:37.040 It would be pretty intense.
01:00:39.040 It would be a nice show.
01:00:40.040 If it wasn't like one of these Truman shows and it's not an act, but a real, like I got Facebook,
01:00:44.040 Facebook live everywhere.
01:00:45.040 You see all the fights.
01:00:46.040 If a person wanted to come in between my wife and I to help cause a divorce.
01:00:51.040 It'd be very easy because you know, all our laundry, dirty laundry, because you see all
01:00:55.040 our fights on a Facebook live.
01:00:57.040 Every one of them you've seen on a Facebook live.
01:00:59.040 So you'll know how to poke me.
01:01:00.040 You'll know how to poker.
01:01:01.040 If you're a girl, you're trying to get me to be like, well, remember that one time
01:01:05.040 your wife said this, I would never do that to you.
01:01:06.040 You would never do that to me.
01:01:07.040 No, you know, vice versa.
01:01:08.040 You don't understand what I'm saying here.
01:01:09.040 Like if a person really didn't want it to come in between us.
01:01:13.040 I think America fights politicians.
01:01:15.040 They fight on a Facebook live.
01:01:17.040 Our dirty laundry is out there.
01:01:19.040 Everybody knows about it.
01:01:20.040 When's the last time you saw China's politicians fight on a Facebook live?
01:01:24.040 You don't know any of their fights and their bickering because they do it behind closed
01:01:28.040 doors.
01:01:29.040 If we wanted to negotiate with a country like China, they will not let Facebook in.
01:01:33.040 They will not let Twitter in.
01:01:34.040 They will not let YouTube in.
01:01:36.040 They will not let any of those social media platforms in there.
01:01:39.040 Because God forbid if we really find out what's going on in China.
01:01:42.040 They're about censoring.
01:01:43.040 They're about silencing.
01:01:44.040 They're about dictating.
01:01:46.040 They're not about giving you the freedom.
01:01:48.040 So don't you think that makes it difficult for a country to negotiate with another country
01:01:53.040 that doesn't believe in the same values and principles that you follow?
01:01:58.040 It makes it difficult, but I think, unfortunately, many of the patterns you're identifying the behavior
01:02:06.040 of the Chinese Communist Party are patterns and practices that are not so uncommon in the United States.
01:02:14.040 I mean, the NSA has been spying on us.
01:02:17.040 We came to know this.
01:02:19.040 There is a large surveillance state, let alone Facebook, we know, has been spying on us.
01:02:27.040 Our corporations spy on us.
01:02:29.040 We live in a surveillance society here in the United States.
01:02:32.040 So we shouldn't fool ourselves that, you know, do we live in China?
01:02:37.040 No.
01:02:38.040 There are freedoms that we enjoy, but we should be careful.
01:02:42.040 Similarly, you know, some of the values that the United States U.S. leaders have clearly
01:02:51.040 embraced values like invading other countries are values that the Chinese Communist Party
01:02:57.040 has avoided.
01:02:58.040 When was the last time the Chinese Communist Party waged a war outside its borders?
01:03:04.040 1979.
01:03:07.040 Last war China was involved in outside its borders was 1979 for one month with the
01:03:12.040 Vietnam.
01:03:13.040 One month.
01:03:14.040 Chinese Communist Party has pursued a different policy that has focused on building up its
01:03:19.040 economic strengths.
01:03:21.040 Seems like it's been pretty effective.
01:03:24.040 Meanwhile, the United States has been squandering literally trillions of dollars on wars that have
01:03:31.040 only created more danger for the United States that have diverted money from addressing the real
01:03:38.040 needs we we face.
01:03:40.040 And just to get back to your question of diplomacy, we can't choose who we negotiate with.
01:03:46.040 We can't choose the people on the other side of the diplomatic table.
01:03:51.040 We have to engage with other countries, other leaders where they are.
01:03:56.040 And that is a complicated task, but we have to we have to embrace diplomacy.
01:04:03.040 We have to choose another path to avoid this.
01:04:06.040 Again, as I've said, this pattern of permanent perpetual war that is only harming ourselves
01:04:12.040 and harming people around the world.
01:04:14.040 Did you hear the President Xi's message at their 100 years celebrating the CCP?
01:04:22.040 Did you hear his message?
01:04:23.040 What he said?
01:04:24.040 I did.
01:04:25.040 What do you think about it?
01:04:26.040 Pretty motivational speech.
01:04:28.040 Motivational.
01:04:30.040 You know, Chinese leaders like other other leaders like US leaders tend to exaggerate the threats of
01:04:39.040 others for their own domestic political benefit.
01:04:43.040 And they tend to engage in, you know, especially male leaders, I have to say,
01:04:48.040 is another dimension we haven't talked about.
01:04:50.040 A lot of this conversation is shaped by gender and male posturing by male leaders.
01:04:56.040 And I think that's a lot of what he was engaged in.
01:04:59.040 President Trump, obviously, was very good at trying to show how big a man he was.
01:05:05.040 And I think this is this is part of the problem.
01:05:08.040 Male leaders trying to prove their manliness.
01:05:11.040 Again, we shouldn't just we shouldn't take the words of a leader and turn it into a threat that it isn't that it doesn't represent the Chinese military.
01:05:25.040 Again, as you mentioned earlier, the United States military budget is at least three times the size of the Chinese military budget.
01:05:34.040 The Chinese military is nothing of the threat.
01:05:37.040 Again, the Soviet Union was its capabilities or do not come close to rivaling that of the United States in so many respects, including nuclear.
01:05:47.040 Chinese military is a very small nuclear threat.
01:05:50.040 So, you know, I think we need to be really careful about the kind of fear mongering that's going on about China in particular.
01:06:00.040 And one of the I think the top of our list of foreign policy priorities has to be the avoidance of war with China.
01:06:09.040 I think there are far too many people in the United States who are inflating the threat of China, which is creating a kind of self fulfilling prophecy runs the risk of creating a self fulfilling prophecy.
01:06:19.040 You know, how would how would how would US leaders respond if China started building dozens of military bases near US borders?
01:06:28.040 The United States military surrounds China's borders with hunt literally hundreds of military bases and has been building up its presence in East Asia in the Western Pacific.
01:06:40.040 How would how would US leaders respond if the shoe was on the other foot?
01:06:44.040 There would be a call for a massive military build up our inflation of China of the Chinese threat is leading to an aggressive military posture.
01:06:53.040 These are the China, which is only encouraging them to spend more on their military in an escalating cycle.
01:07:00.040 And this, you know, again, runs the risk of being a self fulfilling prophecy and bringing about a war between the United States and China.
01:07:08.040 That really should be incomprehensible that the two wealthiest countries on Earth, the two largest military spenders on Earth, the two nuclear armed powers that they could engage in a war and that it wouldn't go completely out of control.
01:07:25.040 I mean, it would look, make the catastrophe of the last 20 years of war look small.
01:07:31.040 We have to avoid this escalation of tension with China, military tension with China and other tensions.
01:07:37.040 And we have to avoid war with China at all costs.
01:07:41.040 I got to tell you, you come across as a very sweet man. Very. I can use the word sweet.
01:07:47.040 OK, I'm being serious. When's your birthday, by the way? When is your birthday?
01:07:50.040 November, November 25th.
01:07:52.040 So you're Sagittarius. OK, got it. So I'm October 18th.
01:07:56.040 So I listen, I you sound like the type of person I love you to be at the house, you know, have dinner, have a glass of wine.
01:08:05.040 I think we'd have a fascinating conversation. But there's a part of me that thinks, you know, and Andy Grove one time wrote a book in the 80s or 90s.
01:08:13.040 He said only the paranoid survive. I think there's a there's a bit of paranoia necessary against our enemies.
01:08:19.040 The speech I was talking about was when Xi got up and he said only socialism can save China and only socialism with Chinese characteristics can develop China.
01:08:29.040 We will never allow anyone to bully, oppress or subjugate China. So far, it's fine.
01:08:34.040 Great. I understand. I want my leader to believe that as well.
01:08:37.040 And then anyone who dares to try that will have their heads bashed bloody against the great wall of steel forged by over one point four billion Chinese.
01:08:46.040 I mean, he went from civil protected to straight up gangsters.
01:08:50.040 What do you want to? I mean, at the end, I'm like the Italian mob just came out at the end.
01:08:54.040 Maybe a little bit of too much of Godfather.
01:08:58.040 But what do you think about that? Was I like a noble message?
01:09:00.040 No, of course, that's not a noble message.
01:09:02.040 And that's, again, the kind of sort of macho bluster and posturing and mafia style.
01:09:08.040 An American president can get away with that.
01:09:10.040 That is completely how are we going to respond?
01:09:13.040 I mean, you can respond by escalating the language.
01:09:16.040 Biden or other leaders can respond by, you know, responding in kind.
01:09:20.040 And then that just leads to an escalating.
01:09:22.040 I agree with that part. I agree.
01:09:24.040 But, you know, I think we should pay more attention to, you know, what's what's more gangster, you know, a little sort of smack talking, macho smack talking or building and maintaining literally hundreds of military bases near the borders of China.
01:09:42.040 I mean, and, you know, flying, you know, bomber missions near the borders of China, sending aircraft carriers north near near China's coast.
01:09:52.040 Do we see any Chinese aircraft carriers on the coast of California?
01:09:56.040 I don't think so. That's gangster like behavior.
01:10:00.040 And it's only encouraging the kind of, you know, macho talk that we're seeing.
01:10:06.040 What do you think about the conspiracy theory Jon Stewart pitched on Stephen Colbert talking about the fact that the virus could be manmade?
01:10:13.040 I saw that. That was an interesting conversation because they clearly disagree.
01:10:19.040 I think I think clearly more research needs to be done to figure out the where this virus came from.
01:10:29.040 But I was a little disturbed by Jon Stewart's certainty about the origin of this coronavirus, especially because it has fueled anti Asian, anti Chinese sentiment and violence against Asian Americans in this country.
01:10:48.040 I think I'm kind of with you when when leaders have a little too much certainty on any topic concerns the hell out of me, like, you know, being that certain that the vaccine is 100 percent great and not giving you an out.
01:10:58.040 That's also a little bit like too much like a tell me like when I was in the military, I got in and I'm like, OK, hey, guys, you guys got to take these 11 shots.
01:11:06.040 Why your government property? OK, so I took the anthrax shot.
01:11:09.040 Every one of those shots, you know, sometimes I wonder I'm a little bit off because the military shots I took and we were all worried that one of our hands is going to get bigger than the other one.
01:11:18.040 You know, we would play these jokes with each other, what these things are going to do. Obviously, nothing happened.
01:11:22.040 But, you know, I think I'm with you on that side. I just I just hope, by the way, let's just say it was something intentional.
01:11:27.040 Let's just say that, you know, we go and we do it and say it comes back and Jon Stewart is right.
01:11:33.040 What should happen to China? Should we just look at one and say, guys, you guys were bad, terrible job.
01:11:37.040 Terrible job. Please don't do it again. What do you think we should do?
01:11:40.040 Well, I don't think anyone is saying that it was intentional on the part of the Chinese.
01:11:45.040 I mean, you know, how many people have died in China right now?
01:11:47.040 They're dealing with a new surge in infections.
01:11:51.040 I think the accusation is that it accidentally escaped from this laboratory.
01:11:57.040 And, you know, in theory, that that is possible.
01:12:01.040 And if if it was, you know, if it was because of lax security protocols or some sort of accident, you know, those responsible should be, you know, held responsible.
01:12:14.040 And I think, you know, financially responsible and otherwise.
01:12:18.040 But right now, there is no conclusive evidence that the Chinese government or a Chinese lab is responsible for this coronavirus.
01:12:26.040 But if we find it, if we find it, should we put them in the timeout room?
01:12:31.040 No, we should just invade them.
01:12:33.040 You and I.
01:12:35.040 Me and you, we go together.
01:12:37.040 Me and you, we dress up as G.I. Joe's and we go out there and go up against David Vine and Patrick Bay David Invade China.
01:12:44.040 Next on CNN.
01:12:45.040 It does sound like, you know, one of those comical movies.
01:12:51.040 Yeah.
01:12:52.040 No way.
01:12:53.040 Again, I think we have to we have to choose a different path.
01:12:58.040 And I hope maybe if people take away nothing from our conversation, nothing else that, you know, the path that the United States, that U.S. leaders have pursued for the last 20 years and really throughout U.S. history has been catastrophic.
01:13:19.040 But especially in the last 20 years.
01:13:21.040 And again, not for reasons of nobility, but for reasons of protecting people in the United States and people around the world, we need to stop fighting.
01:13:32.040 Yeah.
01:13:33.040 Choose a different path.
01:13:34.040 The fact that you're having this topic, I think it sparks a conversation.
01:13:38.040 And I think we need to have that because, again, for me, I was blown away that we have 750 military bases in 80 plus countries.
01:13:47.040 And I was blown away that a lot of our budget is being used in old way of going to war 40 years ago, 50 years ago, like China.
01:13:54.040 They're sitting out there saying, look, we don't need to spend the money that America is using.
01:13:57.040 Why don't we teach ourselves cyber warfare, bio warfare?
01:14:00.040 They're taking a complete different route.
01:14:01.040 America is not.
01:14:02.040 America is saying, hey, why don't we go?
01:14:04.040 You know, they're laughing at us.
01:14:06.040 Yes.
01:14:07.040 Yeah, of course.
01:14:08.040 By the way, I agree with you.
01:14:09.040 I'm also laughing at the approach U.S. military is taking on the way they're fighting today and not preparing for the kind of war that we may face 10, 20, 30, 40 years from now.
01:14:19.040 That's how we need to play our defense.
01:14:21.040 Sometimes the biggest part is, you know, when people in high school know you can fight, sometimes the best part about avoiding fights is as long as the other guy knows you can whoop his ass.
01:14:30.040 That's all that matters sometimes. As long as either they know you can whoop their ass or they know that your uncle, your brother, your cousin or your best friend is a guy you don't want to fight.
01:14:39.040 Because if you do, it's going to be fight.
01:14:41.040 You can avoid 99% of fights if one of those two things is on your side.
01:14:45.040 So I think what I'm saying is, David, I think what I'm proposing is I think you and I need to go become best friends with Mike Tyson.
01:14:51.040 Okay, and then just tell everybody about it on our Twitter profile says, if you mess with me, my best friend is Mike Tyson, he will work your tail.
01:15:00.040 Yeah, no, and it's, it's almost like us leaders have had some sort of, you know, profound insecurity and needed to demonstrate that military power.
01:15:10.040 Of course, when they've done so it's been completely counterproductive in so many ways, including, you know, how many wars these United States one in the last 20 years, zero, you know, all they've done is to demonstrate the inadequacies of the US military.
01:15:27.040 While, of course, undermining our security and found ways taking the lives of, you know, 10s of 1000s of people in the United States and, and, you know, millions of people in the war zones where the US military has been deployed.
01:15:41.040 Let me just say one last thing that, that, you know, I'm not alone in in holding these sorts of views, they're a growing number of people across the political spectrum, who come to similar conclusions that we need a profoundly different strategy.
01:15:55.040 It's not just, you know, leftist folks like me, they're, you know, anti imperialist Republicans and libertarians coming to similar conclusions.
01:16:03.040 And that's part of what encourages me that, you know, these aren't just sort of noble ideas, but that there are a growing number of people who want to see the United States.
01:16:13.040 Take another path, and, and that the United States can, and really must, we have to have a sense of urgency of transforming US foreign policy and transforming.
01:16:24.040 And ending the endless wars, or else I fear as a country and as people were doomed.
01:16:32.040 David, you seem very sincere.
01:16:34.040 You seem you're coming from a very good place.
01:16:36.040 And you seem somebody that really wants to make this place a better place.
01:16:40.040 And I support that becoming a reality how we go about doing it.
01:16:45.040 The more the opposing sides have debates.
01:16:48.040 I think the more closer we'll get to a better resolution, the more we avoid the talk, the less likely it's going to be happening recently I just put out something I don't know if you saw that or not.
01:16:57.040 I said, I announced a week ago, I'll give $5 million, $2 and a half million to President Obama, $2 and a half million to President Trump, to have them sit down together for that money goes to any charity they want.
01:17:09.040 Just to get these two men in sitting against each other for three hours to have a conversation together on how we can unify America.
01:17:17.040 Again, the more we have opposing people in the room together, I think we'll make progress.
01:17:22.040 The more we avoid the conflict and the conversation, the more divided we'll be.
01:17:27.040 So, once again, appreciate you for coming on and sharing your views with us.
01:17:32.040 And, you know, I gave you some tough questions.
01:17:34.040 I pushed back a little bit, but you were a class act about it.
01:17:36.040 And I respect you for that.
01:17:38.040 Folks, if you haven't ordered this book, I'm going to put the link below.
01:17:41.040 The States of War, A Global History of America's Endless Conflicts from Columbus to Islamic State.
01:17:46.040 That link will be below.
01:17:47.040 And the name is David Vine.
01:17:49.040 We'll also put his link if you want to go to Twitter and let him know that you watched today's interview.
01:17:53.040 That'd be great as well.
01:17:54.040 David, thank you so much for being a guest on Valuetainment.
01:17:56.040 Patrick, this is so much fun.
01:17:58.040 Thank you for the great questions and the time.
01:18:01.040 Any time.
01:18:02.040 Any time.
01:18:03.040 Take care.
01:18:04.040 Take care.
01:18:05.040 Do you agree with them?
01:18:06.040 Do you say we get rid of everybody?
01:18:07.040 We get rid of military, all the military bases.
01:18:09.040 Should we do that?
01:18:10.040 Should we all be noble, working very nicely with each other?
01:18:14.040 Is there threats?
01:18:15.040 Are they not enemies?
01:18:16.040 I'm curious.
01:18:17.040 Really like them, but I want to know what you took away from the interview.
01:18:19.040 Comment below.
01:18:20.040 And then on top of that, I've got two interviews I want you to watch.
01:18:22.040 If you want insane entertainment, probably the shortest interview I've ever done.
01:18:27.040 I've never had anybody curse me out.
01:18:29.040 This was the first, the one and only person ever, if you've never seen it, my friend, Lucian Trescot.
01:18:34.040 You can see the connection we have together in 27 minutes.
01:18:37.040 And in a minute, you'll be entertained when you see the intro.
01:18:39.040 But the other one is with Elliot Ackerman that we did an interview with.
01:18:44.040 He wrote a book called 20, I think it's 2042 or 2043, some book on 2034, some number like that.
01:18:50.040 But if you've never seen it, it's a fantastic book about what the next war would look like and who would be involved.
01:18:57.040 If you've not seen that, click over here to watch it.
01:19:00.040 Take care, everybody. Bye-bye.
01:19:02.040 Bye-bye.