Valuetainment - December 13, 2025


“Your Secrets Become Leverage” - Scientology’s SHOCKING Manipulation & Blackmail Playbook EXPOSED

Topics
International Church of Christ interventions mind control suggestions
Hosted by
Patrick Bet-David
Mentioned
Kip McKean Steve Sapp Edward Fernando Scientologists
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Episode Stats


Length

14 minutes

Words per minute

162.96

Word count

2,383

Sentence count

194

Harmful content

Misogyny

2

sentences flagged

Toxicity

6

sentences flagged

Hate speech

3

sentences flagged


Summary

Summaries generated with gmurro/bart-large-finetuned-filtered-spotify-podcast-summ .

In this episode, we discuss the difference between confession and auditing, and the differences between the two, and how confessions can be used in the business model of the Church of Scientology and the Catholic Church. We also discuss how confessions are often used as leverage in order to get inside information about one s personal life.

Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
Misogyny classifications generated with MilaNLProc/bert-base-uncased-ear-misogyny .
Toxicity classifications generated with s-nlp/roberta_toxicity_classifier .
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
Topics generated with Qwen2.5-3B-Instruct.
Hosts, guests, and mentioned names generated with spaCy (en_core_web_sm), reconciled against Wikidata.
00:00:00.000 I've heard stories in the business model of when they get so much intel from you
00:00:05.060 in your personal life, mistakes you made, that when you want to leave,
00:00:08.340 it's a very difficult thing to do.
00:00:10.040 But that business model of confession is a business model from the Catholic Church.
00:00:15.300 It's actually, if you think about where does confessions go to?
00:00:19.860 If you're a Catholic and you're confessing, there's a curtain.
00:00:25.320 You don't know who the priest is on the other side.
00:00:28.260 The priest has quite a few.
00:00:30.740 Are you a Catholic?
00:00:31.600 No, I am not.
00:00:32.540 I'm Jewish.
00:00:33.320 So a Catholic priest has ethical standards that he must adhere to.
00:00:42.940 He cannot reveal a confession.
00:00:44.420 He's still a human being. 0.56
00:00:45.400 He's a sinner.
00:00:46.100 Yeah, but let's contrast that with what Scientologists do, which is auditing.
00:00:52.660 And this is a form of what they call spiritual counseling.
00:00:55.840 So you're sitting across the table from your confessor or your auditor.
00:01:01.820 You are holding two metal cans connected by wires to a box called an e-meter,
00:01:07.260 which is actually what could be seen as part of a polygraph.
00:01:11.940 It measures nervous tension in your hands.
00:01:15.260 And the needle moves when you're nervous.
00:01:18.320 So you're being asked questions by the auditor about your personal life, your business life,
00:01:24.500 whatever.
00:01:25.380 And he has the advantage of not only looking you in the eye and reading your body language
00:01:32.000 and so forth, but seeing on the e-meter when you are nervous.
00:01:35.760 And so at that point, when he sees, oh, the needle's moving.
00:01:39.860 So this is confessions with the use of technology.
00:01:42.480 Yes.
00:01:42.960 And then drilling down into whatever makes you nervous, supposedly to help you.
00:01:49.380 But also this is revealing your secrets, revealing your inner life and your private life.
00:01:55.840 And then they're taking notes that go into a folder that might be called your pre-clear folder
00:02:04.940 or the records of Scientology.
00:02:08.120 And routinely, people that become involved in Scientology sign releases regarding their records
00:02:14.980 and so forth.
00:02:16.420 So Scientology then, they've got the goods on you.
00:02:20.260 They know about what makes you tick.
00:02:23.180 It's an organized form of confessions.
00:02:25.840 It's organized in a methodical way, and there are copious notes and records that can be used
00:02:33.120 ultimately to your detriment.
00:02:34.820 But it's confessions.
00:02:36.180 It is confession, but I would call it more like an interrogation.
00:02:44.280 I would liken it to being...
00:02:45.940 They're cousins, though, right?
00:02:47.000 I mean, confessions and interrogation, if they're asking you a question, you know, I understand.
00:02:53.280 Like, you can even...
00:02:54.400 You can ask people that have left religions of what they were uncomfortable with, because
00:02:59.740 there was a church in L.A. called the Los Angeles Church of Christ.
00:03:03.440 Oh, yeah.
00:03:03.880 And Los Angeles Church of Christ, a guy named Edward once came up to me, and I was introduced
00:03:09.340 to it by a guy named Fernando, who was one of my groomsmen, a good guy.
00:03:13.100 And he says, come meet this guy named Edward.
00:03:14.500 I go meet the guy Edward, nice guy.
00:03:16.420 And he meets my girlfriend, and he starts asking me questions.
00:03:22.280 He says, so when's the last of many guys had sex?
00:03:24.640 And I said, probably 30 minutes ago, prior to meeting with you.
00:03:28.220 And he says, really?
00:03:29.540 I said, yeah. 0.98
00:03:30.720 He says, you know you're going to hell.
00:03:32.440 I said, what's your point?
00:03:33.820 Where are you going with this? 0.99
00:03:35.180 He says, well, I'm just telling you, you're going to go to hell. 0.98
00:03:36.720 I said, I already know I'm going to hell. 0.74
00:03:38.380 What's the purpose of me meeting with you?
00:03:40.000 Like, I'm trying to see if I have a shot at going to heaven.
00:03:41.660 Anyway, so we start kind of going through the process, and it was such a controlled environment.
00:03:49.100 And Fernando was dating a girl, I won't say the girl's name, that that relationship ended
00:03:54.820 up very nasty, because she was fully in, that he had to do certain things that he didn't
00:03:59.940 want to do, that he was forced to do, that he didn't.
00:04:02.420 Anyways, long story short, can you find out who was the pastor?
00:04:05.620 Was it a guy named?
00:04:06.580 Kip McKean.
00:04:07.420 Was it Steve Sapp or Kip McKean?
00:04:09.200 Well, Kip McKean was at the top.
00:04:11.660 And eventually, he would step down from leadership.
00:04:14.140 Right.
00:04:14.500 And he came up and he said, I've been wrong what I've been saying.
00:04:18.020 One of the guys gets up.
00:04:19.020 Actually, it's Steve Sapp.
00:04:20.280 Can you type in Los Angeles Church of Christ and type in Steve Sapp?
00:04:24.540 But this was actually called the International Church of Christ, not to be confused, by the
00:04:30.200 way, with the United Church of Christ, which is a mainline denomination, or the Independent
00:04:35.780 Churches of Christ, which this group broke away from.
00:04:39.020 So Kip McKean started this group back in the 70s with just a handful of people in Massachusetts.
00:04:45.640 And at its highest point, it's estimated that there were about 250,000 members worldwide.
00:04:52.280 They had Hollywood.
00:04:53.220 They had celebrities.
00:04:53.920 They had actors.
00:04:54.880 I would go in there.
00:04:55.480 I'm like, holy moly.
00:04:56.260 They got everybody.
00:04:56.840 Yeah, and it was all based on a concept of discipleship in which every member was assigned
00:05:04.740 a discipling partner.
00:05:06.460 And there was an ascending hierarchy with Kip McKean at the top, the one person who wasn't
00:05:12.140 being discipled.
00:05:13.240 And they worshipped him as a kind of prototype of the perfect Christian.
00:05:20.100 And they also believed that every other Christian church was lost.
00:05:26.440 Only their church...
00:05:28.320 The only way to go to heaven is through their church.
00:05:30.540 Under their leadership.
00:05:31.920 That's right.
00:05:32.340 And so when you see a Christian church that is saying, look, I'm not just saying that
00:05:38.160 Christianity is the way. 0.99
00:05:39.720 I'm saying that Christianity writ large is not the way. 0.97
00:05:44.360 It is my organization that I run that you must belong to in order to be saved.
00:05:51.880 And that is what Kip McKean taught until he stepped down.
00:05:55.760 Now he has restarted recently, and he again has followers, not very many.
00:06:04.460 And the ICOC, as it's often called, the International Church of Christ, is now greatly diminished.
00:06:11.100 I don't know how many members, but I would speculate 50,000 or less.
00:06:16.220 So they've toppled quite a bit.
00:06:19.500 But when they were in their heyday, I was doing...
00:06:22.820 Oh my goodness.
00:06:23.200 I was doing interventions to get people out.
00:06:25.760 I was talking to my friend.
00:06:26.680 I'm like, buddy, I don't know.
00:06:29.120 This doesn't sound like a good church you're a part of.
00:06:33.000 He says, no, you don't understand.
00:06:34.140 I said, all right.
00:06:34.860 I mean, do your thing.
00:06:35.780 But this is why I don't want to go to church, because of churches like this.
00:06:40.180 They were very good, though.
00:06:41.340 Very organized.
00:06:42.460 Oh.
00:06:42.800 Very systematic.
00:06:44.080 Very much so.
00:06:45.180 Very much so.
00:06:46.180 And I once did a news program with Fox News, and producers for Fox News infiltrated in the late 90s the church in Atlanta, Georgia.
00:06:59.500 And they actually were able to get recordings of what that discipleship was like and how they would talk to you.
00:07:08.360 And specifically, they're training and they're saying to someone, you need to consider leaving your boyfriend, they're telling a female producer at Fox.
00:07:18.600 Because he isn't coming along with the program, and therefore you need to get rid of him.
00:07:25.600 And that kind of inner discussion that is not heard by the general public and not known when you become involved with the church is what really makes it tick, that kind of control.
00:07:39.600 And I can remember I was retained by Fox as an analyst and consultant, and the producers would actually call me to be debriefed.
00:07:50.660 Because even though they knew that the group was a cult, they would say to me, Rick, I feel like I'm getting taken in.
00:07:57.500 I feel like I'm starting to become a believer.
00:08:00.120 Help me here.
00:08:00.940 What's wrong with what they're saying?
00:08:02.940 With these guys.
00:08:03.560 Yeah.
00:08:04.300 And so I had done.
00:08:06.040 They were good.
00:08:06.420 They were very good.
00:08:07.760 I did 80 interventions to get people out.
00:08:09.820 Did you find sexual things?
00:08:11.360 Did you find?
00:08:11.820 Because I didn't find anything there.
00:08:13.460 No.
00:08:13.580 Like the adulation and the sexual stuff.
00:08:15.960 I didn't see the sexual stuff at all.
00:08:17.640 So they were all actually very good people.
00:08:21.360 The leaders were living large.
00:08:24.580 A lot of the leaders were-
00:08:25.920 The financial part.
00:08:26.580 The finances, which were exposed.
00:08:28.760 Well, if you take the three, the cash, the adulation, and the sexual, I didn't see the sexual.
00:08:33.640 The adulation I saw, I know nothing about the cash.
00:08:36.340 Because I wasn't at the higher-up level.
00:08:37.780 I was in my early 20s to see what was going on.
00:08:40.620 Let me just say that when Kip McKean stepped down, he did so for sins in his life that remain undisclosed.
00:08:49.360 So I don't know what that involved.
00:08:51.720 If it was, he wasn't faithful to his wife.
00:08:55.920 He was excessively controlling.
00:08:58.820 He used money in a questionable way.
00:09:01.660 I don't know.
00:09:02.760 He did not disclose.
00:09:03.940 And certainly, there were wonderful people that were involved in the ICOC.
00:09:11.920 And I think that's part of the phenomenon or the situation you're in in a destructive cult.
00:09:19.060 You're in this group, and the people around you are very idealistic.
00:09:24.180 They're very positive because they believe that the group is good.
00:09:28.920 And they're there feeling that they're promoting something that is positive, that is good for people.
00:09:38.080 And so you are mistaken by these people around you.
00:09:43.100 You look at them, and they're smiling, and they're loving, and they're kind.
00:09:46.820 And you think to yourself, this is a great group.
00:09:50.100 But if you sat with Kip McKean in a situation where he had to answer for himself, you probably would say, what the heck am I in here?
00:10:00.060 And so many people, when they leave cults, they leave because something happened.
00:10:06.740 There was a revelation.
00:10:08.240 There was something shocking that they witnessed that was not according to what the group said they were about.
00:10:14.420 And they were disturbed by it, or they're just plain exhausted, worn out from working so hard for the group.
00:10:21.180 And they leave, and I think that many people, when they leave, leave thinking, well, there's something wrong with me, I'm ashamed of myself, I failed, I let God down, et cetera.
00:10:36.640 And they don't really understand, no, it wasn't about me doing something wrong or me being to blame.
00:10:45.000 It was the group, and that the group had predatory practices, and that the group leadership wasn't ethical, and there were conflicts that I had as a person wanting to be ethical and reasonable with what I was being told to do in the group.
00:11:03.080 And so I think for everyone that leaves a group, you have to go through a process of unpacking your experience, looking at it, understanding it.
00:11:13.760 And I would say it's very similar to being in an abusive, controlling relationship.
00:11:19.100 Initially, you fall in love.
00:11:20.900 The person who is the abusive partner is very effusive, and they tell you how much they love you, and you go through this honeymoon period.
00:11:29.100 But then comes the abuse, and you don't want to believe it.
00:11:33.700 And your partner is telling you, it's your fault.
00:11:37.620 It's your fault.
00:11:38.380 Why did you make me have a meltdown? 0.97
00:11:41.000 Why did you make me hit you?
00:11:42.600 I did it because of your behavior.
00:11:45.860 And so the cult member feels the same way.
00:11:48.780 And I know that people often say about women that are in abusive, controlling relationships, well, you know, love is blind.
00:11:57.980 But when the perpetrator, the partner, is constantly manipulating you, and there's all this smoke and mirrors, how can you see clearly?
00:12:08.140 And it's the same way with a cult.
00:12:09.740 They're not giving you accurate information.
00:12:11.900 They're playing with your head.
00:12:13.660 They're gaslighting you.
00:12:15.560 How can you think clearly when they don't let you?
00:12:20.040 Yeah.
00:12:20.220 Both ways, by the way.
00:12:22.260 I've seen guys also caught up with controlling women. 1.00
00:12:24.980 I mean, it's very easy to always just say men.
00:12:27.960 I saw a guy that he lost himself, married a girl, and afterwards I'm like, buddy, you've lost yourself.
00:12:34.500 I don't know what just happened to you.
00:12:36.020 He's happily married now.
00:12:36.900 He's got a beautiful family.
00:12:37.820 But for about three years, nobody could recognize him.
00:12:42.360 He was controlled by her.
00:12:44.040 Vice versa.
00:12:44.700 Of course, I've seen more stories with men than I've seen with women.
00:12:47.680 It's two to one on a number of stories because men are more the aggressive, the assertive.
00:12:52.060 But women have a way of controlling in a very different way. 1.00
00:12:55.100 I just messaged my guy to see who we were talking about regarding to this Kip guy from Los Angeles Church of Christ.
00:13:04.160 This is a clip from 1993 where he is a CBS reporter, a reporter is trying to interview him.
00:13:12.100 And go ahead, Rob.
00:13:13.460 Last month, we found out that the man who some followers call God's greatest living treasure
00:13:18.860 would be coming to this New York hotel for an annual meeting with his world sector leaders.
00:13:23.960 Mr. McKean, I'm Trish Wood from Fifth Estate.
00:13:28.560 I believe you were talking to our researcher on the phone.
00:13:31.600 Could we ask you a couple of questions?
00:13:33.560 Well, you know, we have no comment.
00:13:35.540 I appreciate...
00:13:36.600 Could you just maybe explain to us why so many of the ex-members of your church
00:13:41.440 are suggesting that there was mind control involved in their time in the church?
00:13:45.920 Can you explain why people are saying that?
00:13:48.780 We have no comment this time.
00:13:50.200 But the questions really are about you and your role in the leadership of the church.
00:13:57.280 And many of the ex-members would like to know why these things happened to them.
00:14:02.520 Well, I think you've talked to many of the ex-members, so you have the information.
00:14:06.880 But they would like, and I think some questions are appropriate for you to answer,
00:14:11.920 why are all these people suggesting that there was mind control being done to them while they were in your church?
00:14:19.120 Mr. McKean?
00:14:20.160 Hi, I'm Rick Allen Ross, cult expert, intervention specialist, author of the book Cults Inside Out.
00:14:29.460 You can find me on Manect.
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