Verdict with Ted Cruz - A Big Damn Deal

00:00:00.000 This is an iHeart Podcast.

00:00:02.420 Guaranteed human.

00:00:04.900 Roe was egregiously wrong from the start.

00:00:08.700 Its reasoning was exceptionally weak,

00:00:10.800 and the decision has had damaging consequences.

00:00:13.920 And far from bringing about a national settlement

00:00:16.140 of the abortion issue,

00:00:17.840 Roe and Casey have inflamed debate and deepened division.

00:00:22.080 We hold that Roe and Casey must be overruled.

00:00:25.900 I am not simply speaking for myself and Senator Ted Cruz.

00:00:30.160 I'm reading the words of Justice Samuel Alito,

00:00:33.620 who is apparently writing the majority opinion of the court

00:00:38.120 in a leaked document,

00:00:40.180 a document that was leaked

00:00:41.520 in what the Chief Justice John Roberts calls

00:00:43.720 a singular and egregious breach of trust

00:00:47.820 on the Supreme Court.

00:00:49.980 We're gonna be talking to someone

00:00:51.020 who knows a whole lot about the court,

00:00:52.560 a whole lot about the issue,

00:00:53.760 and a whole lot about what happens now.

00:00:55.140 This is Verdict with Ted Cruz.

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00:02:13.020 Today's episode of Verdict with Ted Cruz

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00:03:24.420 This episode of Verdict

00:03:25.860 with Ted Cruz

00:03:26.520 is brought to you

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00:04:39.060 Welcome back

00:04:39.580 to Verdict with Ted Cruz.

00:04:41.100 I'm Michael Knowles.

00:04:42.420 Senator,

00:04:42.860 I have seven bazillion

00:04:45.780 questions to ask you

00:04:47.300 about this.

00:04:47.680 You've just come

00:04:48.400 from the Capitol.

00:04:49.400 We have not even

00:04:50.460 had a prep call yet.

00:04:51.620 We have not talked

00:04:52.400 about anything.

00:04:54.140 Tell me everything

00:04:54.800 that I need to know

00:04:55.740 about this leaked document

00:04:58.000 from the Supreme Court.

00:04:59.080 Well, let's start

00:04:59.640 on the substance.

00:05:00.340 The substance is 0.94

00:05:01.040 this is a big damn deal. 0.83

00:05:02.540 Assuming that 0.73

00:05:03.560 the reporting

00:05:04.540 that accompanied

00:05:05.200 this leak

00:05:06.360 is accurate,

00:05:07.540 it turns out

00:05:08.380 what you and I discussed

00:05:09.540 on this podcast

00:05:10.800 days after the oral argument

00:05:13.220 appears to be

00:05:14.200 exactly right.

00:05:15.480 On this podcast,

00:05:17.020 you and I talked

00:05:17.680 about what the justices

00:05:18.920 were likely to do.

00:05:20.020 I had listened

00:05:20.540 to the argument

00:05:21.980 very carefully

00:05:22.700 and what I told you

00:05:23.820 at the time

00:05:24.400 is that I believe

00:05:25.920 there were six votes

00:05:27.200 to uphold

00:05:28.200 the Mississippi law,

00:05:29.440 the Mississippi law

00:05:30.320 restricting abortion

00:05:31.260 after 15 weeks.

00:05:33.320 And I also thought

00:05:34.960 there were five votes

00:05:36.180 to overrule

00:05:37.080 Roe versus Wade

00:05:38.040 in its entirety.

00:05:39.060 So there's a distinction

00:05:40.380 to be had there

00:05:41.020 because the case

00:05:41.780 at issue

00:05:42.400 or the law at issue

00:05:44.200 is this pro-life law

00:05:45.240 in Mississippi.

00:05:46.060 So you could have

00:05:46.740 a world in which

00:05:47.680 you have different judges

00:05:49.460 voting to uphold

00:05:50.540 or strike down that law

00:05:51.620 than you would have

00:05:52.780 to go all the way back

00:05:54.660 and overrule Roe v. Wade

00:05:56.040 and Planned Parenthood v. Casey

00:05:57.100 which invented

00:05:57.780 the constitutional right

00:05:59.060 to an abortion. 0.94

00:06:00.600 That's exactly right.

00:06:02.180 And what my assessment

00:06:04.700 was from listening

00:06:05.740 to the oral argument

00:06:06.540 is that John Roberts,

00:06:07.940 the chief justice,

00:06:09.500 seemed prepared

00:06:10.500 to uphold

00:06:11.100 the Mississippi law

00:06:11.980 but he wanted

00:06:13.200 to find a way

00:06:13.980 to do it

00:06:14.720 without overruling

00:06:16.080 Roe v. Wade.

00:06:17.420 And remember

00:06:17.880 I went into this argument

00:06:19.160 deeply skeptical.

00:06:20.780 I was not convinced

00:06:21.680 there were five votes

00:06:22.540 on the court

00:06:22.980 to overturn Roe.

00:06:24.080 I knew there were two.

00:06:25.100 I knew Justice Alito

00:06:25.940 and Justice Thomas.

00:06:26.920 They'd both been

00:06:27.420 quite public about that.

00:06:28.960 But I had real skepticism

00:06:30.900 about Kavanaugh,

00:06:32.080 about Gorsuch,

00:06:32.840 and about Barrett.

00:06:33.840 Um, from listening

00:06:36.520 to the oral argument

00:06:37.580 all three seem

00:06:39.400 to be clearly

00:06:40.540 leaning in

00:06:41.520 in support

00:06:42.300 of overturning Roe.

00:06:43.400 And from this opinion

00:06:44.660 it appears

00:06:45.160 that's exactly

00:06:45.900 how they voted.

00:06:46.600 Well, I guess

00:06:47.460 we also have to

00:06:48.100 establish first

00:06:48.960 this leaked document

00:06:50.260 that went to Politico

00:06:51.560 on Monday night

00:06:52.880 and then was released

00:06:54.880 to the broader public.

00:06:56.040 The document

00:06:56.760 is legit,

00:06:58.040 correct?

00:06:58.200 This is an actual

00:06:59.480 draft opinion

00:07:00.220 from the Supreme Court.

00:07:01.620 So it is.

00:07:02.360 The court has confirmed

00:07:03.380 that,

00:07:03.700 that this is a real

00:07:04.560 draft opinion.

00:07:05.880 And I gotta say 0.91

00:07:07.500 that is a big damn deal. 0.61

00:07:11.260 Like when this came out, 0.95

00:07:12.660 this came out Monday night.

00:07:14.400 I was having dinner

00:07:15.100 with some friends.

00:07:17.340 You know me well.

00:07:18.440 I am rarely

00:07:19.760 at a loss for words.

00:07:21.860 That is true.

00:07:23.600 I was genuinely speechless.

00:07:26.880 And it's difficult

00:07:28.040 to convey to someone

00:07:29.700 who doesn't regularly

00:07:31.000 practice in front

00:07:32.440 of the court,

00:07:33.020 who doesn't interact

00:07:33.780 with the Supreme Court

00:07:34.720 often,

00:07:35.880 the magnitude

00:07:37.620 of the breach

00:07:38.640 this represents.

00:07:39.660 It is stunning

00:07:41.100 at a level

00:07:41.880 that is horrifying.

00:07:44.060 In over two centuries

00:07:45.660 of our country's history,

00:07:47.960 never,

00:07:48.680 not even once,

00:07:49.740 has a draft opinion

00:07:50.900 leaked from the

00:07:51.800 U.S. Supreme Court.

00:07:53.220 For this to happen,

00:07:55.940 the court has been

00:07:57.720 this goes right

00:07:59.720 to the heart

00:08:00.580 of the integrity

00:08:02.060 of the court

00:08:03.260 and it goes right

00:08:05.300 to judicial independence.

00:08:08.240 And

00:08:08.520 I promise you

00:08:11.520 this entire day

00:08:12.740 has been

00:08:14.580 like an earthquake

00:08:16.440 at the Supreme Court

00:08:17.580 because it undermines

00:08:19.100 the ability

00:08:19.720 of the court

00:08:20.420 to do its job.

00:08:22.100 And what it means

00:08:22.980 happened,

00:08:23.780 I think

00:08:24.580 in all likelihood,

00:08:26.280 what it means

00:08:27.180 is that there

00:08:27.980 was a left-wing

00:08:29.320 law clerk

00:08:30.100 who was upset

00:08:32.460 at how the justices

00:08:33.500 voted

00:08:33.860 and decided

00:08:35.240 to leak

00:08:36.020 this opinion.

00:08:37.780 And just as a matter

00:08:39.120 of procedure,

00:08:40.020 you've got all

00:08:40.660 these law clerks

00:08:41.640 and what are they?

00:08:43.400 Are they on an email

00:08:44.040 thread or something?

00:08:45.320 You know,

00:08:45.620 this draft

00:08:46.340 goes back to February.

00:08:47.820 So obviously

00:08:48.600 the justices

00:08:49.980 and the clerks

00:08:50.740 have been working

00:08:51.220 on this

00:08:51.660 for a long time

00:08:52.880 and is it just

00:08:53.580 that any clerk

00:08:54.880 can see

00:08:55.620 any of these drafts?

00:08:57.040 Is there any,

00:08:57.640 is there going to be

00:08:58.060 any way to identify

00:08:59.080 who actually did this?

00:09:00.260 I guess is what

00:09:00.760 I'm asking.

00:09:01.600 So there may well be.

00:09:03.340 So the way it works

00:09:04.640 is when a case

00:09:05.700 is argued

00:09:06.300 shortly after the argument

00:09:08.400 either on Wednesday

00:09:09.220 or Friday,

00:09:10.260 the court meets

00:09:11.060 in conference.

00:09:11.860 Now conference

00:09:12.500 is a special room.

00:09:14.300 The conference room

00:09:15.100 is actually attached

00:09:15.980 to the chief

00:09:16.480 justices chambers.

00:09:17.960 So there's a conference

00:09:18.800 table.

00:09:19.480 In conference

00:09:20.240 it is only

00:09:20.760 the nine justices.

00:09:21.660 There's nobody else

00:09:22.540 in the room.

00:09:23.060 There's no law clerk.

00:09:23.840 There's no secretary.

00:09:24.720 It is the nine justices.

00:09:26.380 Actually the door

00:09:27.480 leading to the conference room,

00:09:29.020 there are two doors.

00:09:29.860 There's a door

00:09:30.480 and then there's

00:09:30.920 about three feet

00:09:31.600 of space

00:09:32.100 and then there's

00:09:32.520 a second door.

00:09:34.020 And the junior justice

00:09:35.940 is expected

00:09:37.640 to get coffee

00:09:38.480 for the others.

00:09:40.420 And if for some reason

00:09:42.340 someone needs

00:09:43.280 to pass a note

00:09:44.500 to the justices,

00:09:46.180 you open the outer door,

00:09:47.980 you put the note

00:09:48.600 on the floor,

00:09:49.500 you knock on the inner door,

00:09:50.720 you close the outer door

00:09:52.060 and then the junior justice

00:09:53.160 goes and opens

00:09:53.820 the inner door

00:09:54.380 and gets the note.

00:09:55.280 It's like an airlock.

00:09:59.480 At conference,

00:10:00.880 the justices cast

00:10:02.160 their initial votes.

00:10:03.540 In this instance,

00:10:04.600 assuming the reporting

00:10:05.620 is accurate,

00:10:06.780 six justices voted

00:10:08.060 to uphold

00:10:09.280 the Mississippi statute

00:10:11.300 and five justices

00:10:12.840 voted

00:10:13.240 to overturn

00:10:15.780 Roe versus Wade.

00:10:16.620 When that happens,

00:10:19.320 the senior justice

00:10:20.660 in the majority

00:10:21.860 assigns the majority.

00:10:25.060 Given the lineup here,

00:10:26.500 it appears likely

00:10:27.360 that that was

00:10:28.220 Justice Thomas

00:10:29.060 who was the senior justice

00:10:30.120 in the majority

00:10:30.820 and he chose

00:10:32.220 to assign it

00:10:32.920 to Justice Alito

00:10:33.720 who's the next

00:10:34.340 most senior justice

00:10:35.240 in the majority

00:10:35.880 and Justice Alito

00:10:36.860 is a masterful

00:10:38.100 opinion writer.

00:10:40.120 Do you have any sense,

00:10:41.120 Senator,

00:10:41.580 knowing some of the

00:10:42.640 people involved here

00:10:43.620 and having spent

00:10:44.160 a lot of time

00:10:44.640 around the court,

00:10:45.140 why would Thomas

00:10:46.360 not want to keep

00:10:47.140 this for himself?

00:10:48.280 This could be

00:10:48.800 the most important

00:10:49.460 decision in the last

00:10:51.440 hundred years.

00:10:52.000 I mean,

00:10:52.140 this could be

00:10:52.460 one of the most

00:10:52.840 important decisions

00:10:53.380 in American history.

00:10:54.900 Yeah, look,

00:10:55.380 I don't have a great

00:10:55.980 answer to that.

00:10:56.740 I'm actually

00:10:58.260 a little bit surprised

00:10:59.300 Justice Thomas

00:10:59.980 didn't assign it

00:11:00.760 to himself

00:11:01.220 because he had

00:11:01.900 that prerogative.

00:11:03.200 But he made

00:11:03.800 the judgment

00:11:04.340 that the chief justice

00:11:06.360 by definition

00:11:07.320 is the most senior

00:11:08.160 justice in the majority,

00:11:09.360 but in this instance

00:11:10.160 he wasn't voting

00:11:10.980 to overturn

00:11:11.500 Roe versus Wade,

00:11:12.740 so he would be

00:11:13.940 writing his own

00:11:14.760 independent opinion.

00:11:15.680 If he could get

00:11:16.440 five justices,

00:11:17.360 he could assign

00:11:17.840 the majority,

00:11:18.840 but he was not

00:11:22.160 willing to overturn

00:11:22.940 Roe according

00:11:23.600 to the reporting,

00:11:24.620 and so Thomas

00:11:26.100 made the assignment.

00:11:27.500 Now, the way it works,

00:11:28.520 once that's assigned,

00:11:30.140 the justice who's

00:11:31.780 assigned the majority

00:11:32.560 opinion goes back

00:11:33.640 to his or her chamber,

00:11:35.040 and each justice

00:11:36.780 has four law clerks.

00:11:38.680 There will be one law

00:11:40.100 clerk who is the lead

00:11:41.100 law clerk on the opinion,

00:11:42.300 and so if there are

00:11:43.300 four of you,

00:11:44.760 each of you have

00:11:45.680 a quarter of the cases

00:11:46.500 before the term.

00:11:48.760 The justice

00:11:49.640 and the law clerk

00:11:50.580 will work together

00:11:51.680 drafting the opinion,

00:11:53.440 and when you prepare

00:11:54.480 an initial draft,

00:11:55.520 you circulate it

00:11:56.240 to all nine justices.

00:11:58.180 That's what this is.

00:11:59.460 So that was the first draft.

00:12:01.660 Justice Alito

00:12:02.260 circulated it

00:12:03.080 to all nine justices.

00:12:04.120 When that happens,

00:12:05.340 at that point,

00:12:06.700 nobody has joined

00:12:07.760 the opinion,

00:12:08.320 so it's not

00:12:08.740 the opinion of the court.

00:12:09.620 It is your draft

00:12:11.460 that you're circulating

00:12:12.520 to the other justices

00:12:14.280 to get their opinions.

00:12:16.760 What happens next

00:12:18.700 is multiple iterations

00:12:21.120 of edits

00:12:21.880 where you'll have

00:12:23.300 individual justices

00:12:24.340 that'll say,

00:12:24.940 hey, I don't like

00:12:25.580 this paragraph.

00:12:26.400 Hey, can you change

00:12:27.060 this sentence?

00:12:28.080 Can you add this footnote?

00:12:29.280 Can you delete this footnote?

00:12:30.880 No, I don't like

00:12:31.540 the way this is structured.

00:12:33.440 And on a run-of-the-mill opinion,

00:12:36.040 you could get dozens

00:12:37.600 or even hundreds of edits.

00:12:39.980 On an opinion like this

00:12:41.440 of this magnitude,

00:12:43.060 you would expect hundreds

00:12:44.780 if not even thousands

00:12:46.160 of edits.

00:12:47.040 This is for the history books.

00:12:51.140 Every justice has to decide

00:12:52.920 whether he or she

00:12:53.680 will join the opinion.

00:12:54.800 In particular,

00:12:55.460 the five justices

00:12:56.240 in the majority here

00:12:57.180 have to make a decision

00:12:58.920 whether they will

00:12:59.620 join the opinion.

00:13:00.600 They may have

00:13:01.540 all sorts of changes to it.

00:13:03.500 And if they don't

00:13:04.400 join the opinion,

00:13:05.180 then they write

00:13:06.560 their own

00:13:07.600 concurring opinion

00:13:08.420 so they would be

00:13:09.980 still voting

00:13:10.860 to overrule Roe

00:13:12.020 but they might say,

00:13:13.620 I just don't agree

00:13:14.340 with the way Alito

00:13:14.960 is going about this.

00:13:16.480 Yeah, and they could do that

00:13:17.720 and you do get opinions.

00:13:19.220 You get sometimes cases

00:13:20.480 where you have

00:13:22.340 multiple opinions,

00:13:24.200 concurring opinions,

00:13:25.080 dissenting opinions,

00:13:25.960 concurring in part,

00:13:26.680 dissenting in part.

00:13:27.400 I mean, it can get complicated.

00:13:29.220 In order for the opinion

00:13:31.000 to be the majority opinion,

00:13:33.020 the opinion of the court,

00:13:35.040 five justices have to join it.

00:13:36.700 So it's consequential

00:13:37.980 to have a majority opinion

00:13:40.320 because the opinion

00:13:41.780 of the court is precedent

00:13:43.120 and in this instance,

00:13:45.260 I think the five justices

00:13:47.440 who presumably are voting

00:13:50.420 to overturn Roe

00:13:51.540 want there to be

00:13:52.600 an opinion of the court.

00:13:54.260 So there's a high,

00:13:56.600 unless there's something

00:13:57.780 you cannot live with,

00:14:00.520 an opinion with five justices

00:14:02.240 as qualitatively different

00:14:03.540 as a legal matter

00:14:04.280 than an opinion

00:14:04.800 with just four.

00:14:07.700 Also in response

00:14:08.840 to the opinion,

00:14:10.100 other justices

00:14:10.940 are working on

00:14:11.800 a concurring opinion.

00:14:14.540 So Roberts,

00:14:16.100 assuming he wants

00:14:16.800 to uphold the statute

00:14:17.840 but not over rule Roe,

00:14:19.460 would file a concurring opinion

00:14:21.340 where he concurs

00:14:22.940 in the judgment.

00:14:23.880 In other words,

00:14:24.780 he agrees with the judgment

00:14:26.580 that the law

00:14:27.380 being challenged

00:14:28.160 is valid.

00:14:29.000 Right.

00:14:30.160 But he concurs

00:14:31.520 for a different reason.

00:14:33.140 So he would not

00:14:34.240 overturn Roe

00:14:35.940 but for whatever reason

00:14:38.280 he would lay out,

00:14:39.020 he thinks that the law

00:14:40.600 is valid.

00:14:41.520 And then the dissenters,

00:14:43.900 presumably the three liberals

00:14:45.700 on the court,

00:14:47.200 would write one or two

00:14:48.600 or even three dissents.

00:14:49.860 My guess is all three

00:14:50.920 will write dissents.

00:14:51.740 In this case,

00:14:52.340 there will probably

00:14:52.940 be a lead dissent

00:14:54.260 and that's typically

00:14:56.220 assigned by the senior justice

00:14:58.020 in the minority.

00:15:00.900 But anyone can write a dissent.

00:15:02.720 And so someone

00:15:04.000 is given the nod

00:15:05.420 of you be the lead dissenter

00:15:06.680 but there can be

00:15:07.620 additional ones.

00:15:10.040 What happened here

00:15:11.520 is somebody handed over

00:15:14.460 to the press

00:15:15.100 the first iteration of this.

00:15:18.960 You know,

00:15:19.540 when you start as a clerk,

00:15:21.240 your first week as a clerk,

00:15:22.620 you sit down in orientation

00:15:23.820 and they stress secrecy.

00:15:25.640 They stress everything done

00:15:27.680 in the court is confidential.

00:15:29.120 You don't talk about anything

00:15:30.100 that happens at the court.

00:15:31.400 You don't bring draft opinions home.

00:15:33.860 You do your work

00:15:34.980 in the Supreme Court building.

00:15:37.520 So on any given night,

00:15:39.800 the court is full of law clerks

00:15:42.480 at midnight,

00:15:43.660 one in the morning,

00:15:44.620 working on draft opinions

00:15:45.840 and doing your work

00:15:46.800 because you don't bring

00:15:48.000 the opinions home.

00:15:49.520 And so there is a primacy

00:15:52.960 on confidentiality

00:15:55.680 and trust

00:15:56.360 that somebody

00:15:57.620 violated

00:15:59.440 in a way

00:16:00.520 that is truly

00:16:01.380 historic and stunning.

00:16:02.840 So what is going to happen

00:16:04.140 to this person?

00:16:04.960 I know that

00:16:05.400 the chief justice

00:16:06.360 sent out this statement today.

00:16:08.360 He said,

00:16:08.780 yes, we're confirming

00:16:09.620 this was a draft opinion.

00:16:11.460 This is egregious.

00:16:12.880 This is a singular

00:16:14.080 breach of trust here.

00:16:15.700 And I'm ordering

00:16:16.620 the marshal of the court

00:16:17.580 to launch an investigation

00:16:18.920 into the source of the leak.

00:16:20.240 One,

00:16:20.920 is he going to be able

00:16:21.800 to identify the source?

00:16:23.160 And two,

00:16:24.080 did this person

00:16:24.960 break a law?

00:16:26.300 I mean,

00:16:26.480 is this going to be

00:16:27.120 a little slap on the wrist

00:16:28.500 by John Roberts

00:16:29.500 or are we talking

00:16:30.560 about jail time?

00:16:31.820 So we're talking

00:16:32.400 about something

00:16:32.960 very, very serious.

00:16:33.960 Let's start with

00:16:34.460 the first thing.

00:16:35.140 I very much hope

00:16:36.360 they find out

00:16:37.460 who the leaker is.

00:16:38.520 I think it is

00:16:39.140 incredibly important

00:16:40.340 that they find this person.

00:16:42.460 The marshal of the court,

00:16:44.020 they have considerable resources.

00:16:46.100 There's a whole

00:16:46.780 police force

00:16:48.240 at the court.

00:16:49.040 There are about

00:16:49.320 500 officers

00:16:50.400 at the court.

00:16:51.480 So the Supreme Court

00:16:52.660 takes separation

00:16:53.520 of powers

00:16:54.080 very seriously.

00:16:54.880 So they don't want,

00:16:56.060 they don't allow

00:16:56.640 Capitol Police

00:16:57.660 into the Supreme Court.

00:16:59.440 So the U.S. Capitol

00:17:00.180 has a whole

00:17:00.640 Capitol Police force,

00:17:01.880 but the Supreme Court,

00:17:03.640 they're a third branch

00:17:04.640 of government.

00:17:05.260 They're not part

00:17:05.860 of the Congress.

00:17:06.640 And so Capitol Police,

00:17:08.780 in their view,

00:17:09.700 have no business

00:17:10.400 in their building.

00:17:11.600 You know,

00:17:14.320 they don't generally

00:17:15.680 handle law enforcement

00:17:17.320 investigations.

00:17:20.660 What the Supreme Court

00:17:21.940 police typically do

00:17:23.360 is stop protests

00:17:24.720 and threats

00:17:25.680 to the justices

00:17:26.520 of the court.

00:17:27.960 But that being said,

00:17:29.600 there are pretty

00:17:30.160 considerable security

00:17:31.540 measures at the court.

00:17:33.160 And it's also

00:17:34.400 a limited universe.

00:17:36.660 So I had several

00:17:38.020 reporters asked today,

00:17:39.200 what if it was a justice

00:17:40.180 that did this?

00:17:40.940 I got to tell you,

00:17:41.880 I just don't believe that.

00:17:43.520 It is such a grotesque

00:17:46.060 violation of trust.

00:17:48.800 To me,

00:17:49.580 it is beyond imagination

00:17:50.840 that a justice

00:17:51.760 would do this.

00:17:53.340 To use the nuclear code example,

00:17:57.780 it's like the president

00:17:58.880 handing the nuclear codes

00:17:59.940 to Putin.

00:18:00.480 It just,

00:18:00.820 I cannot believe

00:18:02.240 even the most left-wing

00:18:03.860 justice would do this.

00:18:05.560 I think it is very,

00:18:07.140 very likely a law clerk.

00:18:09.200 And it is very,

00:18:10.320 very likely

00:18:10.820 a law clerk

00:18:11.520 for one of the three

00:18:12.580 liberal justices.

00:18:13.680 That means there are

00:18:14.300 12 human beings

00:18:15.480 who are your likely

00:18:17.560 suspect pool.

00:18:18.840 That's not a big

00:18:19.860 likely suspect pool.

00:18:22.800 It is likely

00:18:23.820 to be someone

00:18:24.580 who is a hard partisan

00:18:26.180 and who was willing

00:18:28.800 to burn the place down

00:18:30.740 because he or she

00:18:32.500 was so upset

00:18:33.660 about what happens.

00:18:34.640 If I were to guess

00:18:37.000 the most likely justice

00:18:38.280 for whom the law clerk

00:18:39.660 is clerking

00:18:40.680 is Sonia Sotomayor.

00:18:42.460 Why do you say that?

00:18:44.300 Because she's the most

00:18:45.360 partisan of the justices

00:18:46.620 and so she's the most

00:18:48.680 likely to hire

00:18:49.920 wild-eyed partisans

00:18:52.040 as clerks.

00:18:53.420 I have no evidence of that.

00:18:54.920 I'm just making

00:18:55.860 an inference.

00:18:59.620 And with respect

00:19:00.820 to the chain of custody,

00:19:02.420 look,

00:19:02.660 the Supreme Court

00:19:03.540 has technology,

00:19:07.400 actually,

00:19:07.760 when you print out

00:19:08.960 opinions,

00:19:12.680 I don't want to get

00:19:14.420 into the details

00:19:15.400 of how,

00:19:17.060 but they are printed out

00:19:18.300 with identifying materials

00:19:20.020 that forensically

00:19:21.660 you can find out

00:19:22.720 where they were printed

00:19:23.800 out from.

00:19:26.300 Whether they are able

00:19:27.560 to track that down

00:19:28.800 or not in this instance

00:19:29.960 will depend on

00:19:30.720 whether they can get

00:19:31.380 a copy of the actual opinion.

00:19:34.040 Politico just put up a PDF,

00:19:36.560 but the Supreme Court

00:19:38.320 has taken pretty significant

00:19:39.780 steps towards security.

00:19:41.920 So as a law clerk,

00:19:42.680 for example,

00:19:43.960 when you're editing

00:19:45.880 an opinion,

00:19:46.560 you do it on the computer.

00:19:47.640 If you print an opinion out,

00:19:49.000 you can print it

00:19:49.580 and read it

00:19:50.100 in your office

00:19:51.160 and you can edit it,

00:19:52.340 but you never take it home.

00:19:54.520 And when you're done

00:19:55.520 with it,

00:19:55.840 you throw it in a burn bag.

00:19:57.160 And every law clerk

00:19:58.540 has a burn bag

00:19:59.400 typically under your desk

00:20:00.520 and the burn bag

00:20:01.300 is about this tall

00:20:02.780 and it's a kind of brown

00:20:04.160 and red striped bag.

00:20:05.540 And that bag

00:20:06.860 is sealed

00:20:08.820 and then it is shredded

00:20:11.540 twice,

00:20:12.540 horizontally

00:20:13.120 and vertically.

00:20:14.440 and then it is burned

00:20:17.900 and it is rendered

00:20:19.540 completely unreadable

00:20:21.060 before it leaves the building.

00:20:23.320 And that is,

00:20:24.380 that's the level of security

00:20:25.760 they take

00:20:26.500 in that building.

00:20:29.900 One question we don't know

00:20:31.400 was this individual,

00:20:33.360 how smart a crook were they?

00:20:35.740 We know the reporters

00:20:37.160 who published the story.

00:20:40.360 One of the natural inquiries

00:20:41.900 is going to be,

00:20:42.760 particularly of the 12 likely suspects,

00:20:44.460 what contacts did they have

00:20:46.200 with those reporters?

00:20:46.900 Do they know the reporters?

00:20:49.580 Do they go to school

00:20:50.260 with the reporters?

00:20:51.320 Do they have emails

00:20:52.140 with the reporters?

00:20:53.000 Do they have phone calls

00:20:53.820 with the reporters?

00:20:54.500 Do they have text

00:20:55.120 with the reporters?

00:20:56.140 I don't know the answer

00:20:57.100 to any of that.

00:20:57.800 I don't know whether

00:20:58.420 these are master criminals

00:20:59.540 or not.

00:21:00.920 But it strikes me

00:21:02.320 that it is very possible

00:21:03.820 there is an electronic trail

00:21:05.440 or a personal trail.

00:21:08.840 Now,

00:21:09.440 in terms of the consequences,

00:21:10.900 if they identify

00:21:11.840 the perpetrator,

00:21:12.560 I am confident

00:21:14.900 the perpetrator

00:21:15.660 would be fired on the spot,

00:21:17.040 that instantaneously

00:21:18.120 you would lose your job.

00:21:19.840 I am also confident

00:21:21.200 that the perpetrator

00:21:22.040 would be disbarred,

00:21:23.160 that assuming

00:21:24.140 that the perpetrator

00:21:25.100 was already a member

00:21:25.980 of the bar,

00:21:27.340 sometimes clerks

00:21:28.320 are members of the bar,

00:21:29.060 sometimes they're not yet.

00:21:30.120 Like, I was not yet

00:21:31.040 a member of the bar

00:21:31.640 when I was a clerk

00:21:32.340 because I had not yet

00:21:33.720 had time to take

00:21:34.540 the bar exam.

00:21:35.180 I took the bar exam

00:21:36.620 right when I finished

00:21:37.320 my clerkship.

00:21:38.440 If this clerk,

00:21:39.380 you know,

00:21:39.920 presumed clerk,

00:21:41.200 were not yet

00:21:42.280 admitted to the bar,

00:21:43.880 could they be

00:21:44.580 preemptively held

00:21:46.500 from ever entering the bar?

00:21:49.000 I don't think

00:21:50.160 any bar

00:21:50.940 would admit this person.

00:21:52.680 I think this person's

00:21:53.760 legal career is over

00:21:54.820 if they are.

00:21:56.040 Okay.

00:21:56.440 And by the way,

00:21:57.240 that's a big deal.

00:21:58.120 To be a Supreme Court clerk

00:21:59.400 is the pinnacle

00:22:00.480 of legal achievement

00:22:03.400 for a student

00:22:04.200 coming out of law school.

00:22:05.220 They're only 36

00:22:06.080 in the entire country.

00:22:08.120 You get a signing bonus

00:22:09.980 at a law firm

00:22:10.760 as a Supreme Court clerk.

00:22:11.800 I think the current bonus

00:22:12.900 is $350,000

00:22:14.340 the day you walk

00:22:15.900 into the door

00:22:16.500 at the law firm.

00:22:18.180 When I was clerking,

00:22:19.280 it was 50 grand.

00:22:20.240 So you can see inflation.

00:22:21.860 It makes a big difference.

00:22:24.820 But at a minimum,

00:22:27.740 the perpetrator

00:22:28.700 would be fired

00:22:29.640 and would never practice law.

00:22:33.080 But there's a very real possibility.

00:22:35.400 So in the course

00:22:35.980 of the investigation,

00:22:37.120 the investigators

00:22:37.800 will question the clerks.

00:22:39.060 If they lie

00:22:42.080 to the federal officers,

00:22:43.860 Section 1001

00:22:45.220 of the Federal Criminal Code

00:22:46.440 makes it a felony

00:22:47.900 to lie to a federal officer.

00:22:50.160 That carries prison time.

00:22:52.900 And so if they lie

00:22:54.040 in the course

00:22:54.520 of the investigation,

00:22:56.520 I think they should be prosecuted

00:22:58.660 and they should serve

00:22:59.540 the maximum prison time possible.

00:23:01.820 If they don't lie,

00:23:03.020 it's a little more complicated

00:23:04.160 whether they've in fact

00:23:05.180 violated a criminal prohibition

00:23:06.680 or not.

00:23:07.140 I've actually asked my team

00:23:08.720 to try to do some

00:23:09.780 deep dive research on that.

00:23:13.140 But I think regardless,

00:23:16.760 the penalty should be

00:23:19.160 as significant as possible

00:23:21.180 because the damage

00:23:23.780 to the court

00:23:24.520 will be far lasting.

00:23:25.980 It is going to make it

00:23:26.880 incredibly difficult

00:23:28.040 for the justices

00:23:29.040 to trust the process

00:23:31.040 of deciding cases

00:23:34.040 in a collaborative matter,

00:23:35.240 sharing drafts,

00:23:36.280 going back and forth.

00:23:37.500 If people treat it

00:23:38.900 as just another

00:23:39.620 political process,

00:23:40.880 that does massive damage

00:23:43.040 to the court's ability

00:23:43.860 to do its job.

00:23:45.200 So putting this criminal aside,

00:23:48.760 you know,

00:23:48.980 hopefully we can deal

00:23:50.720 with this person.

00:23:51.640 They're disbarred.

00:23:52.540 They get thrown in jail

00:23:54.060 in Alcatraz

00:23:54.660 and they throw away the key.

00:23:56.160 I almost don't even care

00:23:57.480 about that person

00:23:58.400 in spite of the attacks

00:24:01.340 on the court

00:24:01.940 and the institutional integrity

00:24:03.160 because I care so much

00:24:04.700 about the case.

00:24:06.420 So I don't want them

00:24:08.040 to take away the joy

00:24:09.060 that pro-lifers

00:24:10.040 should feel here

00:24:10.680 in that it looks right now

00:24:12.560 like the court

00:24:13.060 is going to overrule

00:24:14.020 Roe and Casey.

00:24:15.080 This is something

00:24:15.540 we've been waiting for

00:24:16.560 for half a century.

00:24:18.100 62 million babies

00:24:19.420 have been killed

00:24:20.120 throughout since

00:24:21.760 the Roe v. Wade decision.

00:24:23.260 So this is huge news

00:24:25.040 unless it isn't.

00:24:26.620 This was just a draft

00:24:27.440 from February.

00:24:28.160 So where does the case stand?

00:24:30.240 Well, that's exactly right.

00:24:32.620 And that is the single

00:24:33.520 most dangerous thing

00:24:34.660 about this leak.

00:24:36.200 The reason in all likelihood

00:24:39.260 that this leak happened

00:24:40.660 is a left-wing law clerk

00:24:42.900 was trying to direct

00:24:44.020 political pressure

00:24:45.220 to the five justices

00:24:47.720 to cause them

00:24:48.480 to switch their vote.

00:24:49.580 And justices switch

00:24:50.640 their votes all the time.

00:24:52.660 It's not a majority opinion.

00:24:54.400 It's not a holding

00:24:55.020 of the court

00:24:55.580 until the opinion issues.

00:24:57.360 At this point,

00:24:59.380 it's just a draft.

00:25:00.780 And this,

00:25:03.340 one of the things

00:25:04.200 to understand

00:25:04.720 about this leak,

00:25:05.740 this is the most

00:25:07.840 egregious manifestation

00:25:09.760 of a multi-year campaign

00:25:12.760 by Democrats

00:25:13.720 to politicize the court

00:25:15.900 and to pressure it.

00:25:19.440 And, you know, look,

00:25:20.240 I'll give you some examples.

00:25:22.200 So Senator Schumer

00:25:23.820 stood on the steps

00:25:25.580 of the court

00:25:26.040 a couple of years ago.

00:25:27.800 Held a press conference.

00:25:29.220 And here's what he said.

00:25:29.980 He said, quote,

00:25:31.500 I want to tell you, Gorsuch,

00:25:34.060 I want to tell you, Kavanaugh,

00:25:36.700 you have released the whirlwind

00:25:39.820 and you will pay the price.

00:25:42.580 You won't know what hit you

00:25:44.660 if you go forward

00:25:46.340 with these awful decisions.

00:25:48.500 So you had

00:25:49.640 then the Senate minority leader,

00:25:51.860 now the Senate majority leader,

00:25:53.220 directly threatening justices

00:25:55.180 if they didn't vote

00:25:56.280 if they didn't vote

00:25:56.300 the way he wanted.

00:25:57.780 Sheldon Whitehouse

00:25:58.580 is a senior Democrat

00:25:59.560 in the Judiciary Committee.

00:26:01.140 He filed an amicus brief

00:26:03.040 in the court

00:26:03.960 that stated, quote,

00:26:05.760 perhaps the court

00:26:07.480 can heal itself

00:26:08.560 before the public demands

00:26:11.060 it be restructured

00:26:13.060 in order to reduce

00:26:15.240 the influence of politics.

00:26:17.800 Particularly on the urgent issue

00:26:19.460 of gun control,

00:26:20.220 a nation desperately

00:26:21.960 needs it to heal.

00:26:23.820 These are partisan Democrats

00:26:25.960 threatening and trying

00:26:27.820 to intimidate the court

00:26:29.020 to decide cases

00:26:30.040 the way they want.

00:26:31.860 That manifested even further

00:26:33.860 in the campaign

00:26:34.960 to pack the court,

00:26:36.820 to add four new left-wing justices

00:26:38.900 and grow it to 13.

00:26:41.160 And by the way,

00:26:43.100 not just that,

00:26:44.140 so there's a whole

00:26:45.000 dark money network,

00:26:46.160 what's called

00:26:46.480 the Arabella network

00:26:47.580 of wealthy leftists

00:26:50.400 who played wage,

00:26:52.700 dark money campaigns

00:26:53.780 on judicial confirmations.

00:26:56.820 They went to

00:26:58.160 Brett Kavanaugh's house

00:26:59.520 trying to intimidate him

00:27:01.360 personally

00:27:01.920 and threaten his family

00:27:03.120 with Justice Breyer,

00:27:05.540 the reliably liberal

00:27:07.260 Democrat Justice Breyer

00:27:09.260 demand justice,

00:27:10.800 which is the kind of

00:27:12.160 main front group

00:27:13.000 for the leftists,

00:27:14.800 launched a campaign

00:27:16.080 to force Justice Breyer

00:27:18.120 to retire,

00:27:20.100 including

00:27:20.840 creating a mobile

00:27:23.520 billboard truck

00:27:24.900 to pressure Justice Breyer.

00:27:27.920 These are partisan Democrats.

00:27:30.420 And so after this leak happened,

00:27:32.660 let me tell you

00:27:34.600 what some of these

00:27:35.320 leftist activists

00:27:36.180 have said.

00:27:39.260 Guy named Brian Fallon,

00:27:41.120 who is the executive director

00:27:42.640 of Demand Justice,

00:27:43.800 used to work for Chuck Schumer.

00:27:44.960 He tweeted out,

00:27:47.280 quote,

00:27:49.160 SCOTUS leaks are good.

00:27:52.660 Elite lawyers

00:27:53.420 on both the left and right

00:27:54.680 treating the court

00:27:55.560 as precious

00:27:56.520 all these years

00:27:58.260 have been given cover

00:27:59.840 to an institution

00:28:00.900 that is wholly unaccountable.

00:28:04.240 Rip the veil off.

00:28:07.120 There's another guy,

00:28:07.860 another leftist guy

00:28:08.600 named Ian Millheiser,

00:28:10.000 who tweeted the following.

00:28:11.840 Serious,

00:28:14.220 seriously,

00:28:15.600 shout out

00:28:16.520 to whoever the hero

00:28:18.900 was within the Supreme Court

00:28:20.860 who said,

00:28:23.180 F it,

00:28:24.020 although he didn't

00:28:24.680 abbreviate F.

00:28:26.580 F it, 0.99

00:28:27.820 let's burn this place 1.00

00:28:29.580 down. 1.00

00:28:32.120 That

00:28:32.760 is what the left

00:28:34.460 is doing

00:28:34.940 with ending the filibuster,

00:28:36.420 with trying to take over

00:28:38.020 federal elections.

00:28:38.880 They're trying to burn

00:28:39.700 the Senate down.

00:28:40.420 They're trying to destroy

00:28:41.200 our institutions.

00:28:42.400 And this leak

00:28:43.800 reflects the manifestation

00:28:46.160 of that multi-year campaign

00:28:48.320 to burn the court down,

00:28:50.560 and their activists

00:28:51.440 are cheering this.

00:28:53.040 So will it work,

00:28:54.340 Senator?

00:28:54.800 Will this pressure campaign

00:28:56.440 and the leak

00:28:57.200 and the whole operation here,

00:28:58.600 will it work

00:28:59.580 to pressure

00:29:00.720 one of the five justices

00:29:02.420 to flip the vote?

00:29:03.620 Are we going to see

00:29:04.600 the ruling anytime soon?

00:29:06.200 Are they going to wait

00:29:06.820 for a month or two

00:29:07.800 or are we going to get it?

00:29:08.820 We've already seen a draft

00:29:09.720 from February.

00:29:11.020 What is the status

00:29:11.920 of the case right now?

00:29:13.560 So I don't think

00:29:14.280 it will work.

00:29:15.320 The Chief Justice today

00:29:16.740 put out a statement

00:29:17.680 saying that it will not work,

00:29:19.460 that it will not intimidate

00:29:20.460 the court.

00:29:21.140 This is an obvious attempt

00:29:22.440 to pressure the justices

00:29:23.820 to change their votes.

00:29:26.160 And I think

00:29:27.540 it is likely to backfire,

00:29:29.500 that it's likely

00:29:30.440 to cause them

00:29:31.340 to dig in even more.

00:29:33.260 Because for any justice

00:29:34.920 at this point,

00:29:35.820 when it's publicly known

00:29:37.280 that you were voting

00:29:38.120 one way,

00:29:38.820 for you to give in

00:29:39.760 to the political pressure

00:29:41.060 and flip

00:29:41.660 would do

00:29:44.160 possibly permanent damage

00:29:46.840 to the credibility

00:29:47.520 of the court.

00:29:48.500 It would be

00:29:49.660 to transform the court

00:29:51.040 into a nakedly

00:29:52.820 political body.

00:29:54.300 Interestingly enough,

00:29:55.480 I think nobody

00:29:56.400 is more dismayed

00:29:57.340 about this

00:29:57.820 than John Roberts.

00:29:58.720 Even though,

00:30:00.360 according to the

00:30:01.300 Politico report,

00:30:02.860 he doesn't agree

00:30:03.460 with overturning

00:30:04.180 Roe versus Wade,

00:30:05.080 he cares deeply

00:30:07.240 about the institutional

00:30:08.340 credibility of the court.

00:30:09.660 As you know,

00:30:10.220 I know John Roberts

00:30:11.020 very, very well.

00:30:12.580 I am certain

00:30:13.560 he is horrified.

00:30:15.120 And in fact,

00:30:15.680 I think,

00:30:16.300 I have no doubt

00:30:17.260 all nine justices

00:30:18.260 are horrified.

00:30:18.800 To give you a sense

00:30:19.920 of the character

00:30:22.700 of the place,

00:30:24.060 I clerked

00:30:25.920 for Chief Justice Rehnquist

00:30:27.600 1996 to 1997.

00:30:29.920 At the time,

00:30:34.140 there was a tradition

00:30:34.960 where the law clerks

00:30:36.100 for each justice

00:30:36.880 would go

00:30:37.760 and have lunch

00:30:39.740 with each

00:30:40.600 of the other justices.

00:30:41.600 It's a very cool tradition,

00:30:42.560 so you got to go

00:30:43.140 have lunch

00:30:43.520 with each

00:30:43.820 of the other eight.

00:30:46.460 At the time,

00:30:47.300 I clerked Byron White,

00:30:49.440 who was a retired justice,

00:30:51.140 but he still went into work.

00:30:52.180 And we very much

00:30:56.160 wanted to have lunch

00:30:56.940 with Byron White.

00:30:58.660 He refused to have lunch.

00:31:00.840 And the reason

00:31:01.980 he wouldn't have lunch

00:31:03.220 is because of the Brethren.

00:31:05.940 So Bob Woodward,

00:31:07.680 the reporter

00:31:08.480 of Woodward and Bernstein,

00:31:09.860 wrote the book

00:31:10.400 The Brethren.

00:31:11.080 It came out in the 70s.

00:31:12.380 And it's like this

00:31:13.760 tell-all

00:31:15.360 from within the Supreme Court

00:31:16.820 with lots of gossip

00:31:17.760 and lots of internal information

00:31:19.400 about the deliberations

00:31:21.140 of the court.

00:31:22.180 A number of law clerks

00:31:23.860 after the fact

00:31:24.720 talked with Woodward.

00:31:25.960 There's speculation

00:31:27.060 at least one justice,

00:31:28.700 likely Potter Stewart,

00:31:30.240 talked with Woodward.

00:31:31.400 And it was a scandal

00:31:33.080 at the court

00:31:33.800 of massive proportions.

00:31:35.460 So I read The Brethren

00:31:36.600 when I was in high school.

00:31:37.480 I think I was 15

00:31:38.140 when I read it.

00:31:39.300 And I thought,

00:31:40.080 okay, this,

00:31:41.080 like being a Supreme Court

00:31:42.680 law clerk

00:31:43.140 sounds like the most amazing job

00:31:44.860 on the face of the planet.

00:31:46.360 I want to do this

00:31:47.500 more than anything else.

00:31:48.640 And it worked out

00:31:50.220 that I got to.

00:31:50.880 But ever since

00:31:52.640 The Brethren,

00:31:53.360 Byron White said,

00:31:54.660 I won't sit down

00:31:56.140 and talk to other law clerks.

00:31:57.340 I'll talk to my own clerk,

00:31:58.820 but I won't talk

00:31:59.520 to other law clerks

00:32:00.300 because of The Brethren.

00:32:02.800 That's,

00:32:03.300 and by the way,

00:32:03.900 this was decades later

00:32:05.840 that White still 1.00

00:32:07.300 would not have lunch

00:32:08.440 with clerks

00:32:09.000 from other chambers.

00:32:09.720 I think the repercussions

00:32:12.640 of this will also be

00:32:14.560 decades long.

00:32:17.500 But I also think

00:32:18.960 it is likely

00:32:19.700 to harden

00:32:20.620 the five justices

00:32:21.700 in the majority.

00:32:22.400 In fact,

00:32:22.600 I don't think

00:32:23.240 it's impossible.

00:32:24.820 Roberts joins them

00:32:26.260 because of this leak.

00:32:27.900 I doubt it,

00:32:29.120 but the chances

00:32:29.780 aren't zero

00:32:30.660 that Roberts

00:32:32.260 writes something

00:32:33.100 that said

00:32:33.540 this leak is

00:32:34.620 wholly unprecedented,

00:32:37.920 wholly unjustified,

00:32:39.040 an assault

00:32:39.700 on the integrity

00:32:41.240 of the court.

00:32:41.920 You know,

00:32:42.100 the closest analogy

00:32:43.320 is the Obamacare case

00:32:46.380 that upheld Obamacare.

00:32:48.140 And in that case,

00:32:49.660 after the decision

00:32:50.660 came down,

00:32:52.300 there was

00:32:53.280 widespread leaking

00:32:54.780 that Roberts

00:32:56.580 had initially voted

00:32:58.440 to strike down

00:32:59.440 Obamacare

00:33:00.260 and then had switched

00:33:02.120 his vote

00:33:02.860 to uphold it.

00:33:05.280 And I have no reason

00:33:06.740 to doubt that reporting.

00:33:08.100 Now,

00:33:08.220 that was prior

00:33:09.240 to this,

00:33:09.740 the greatest breach

00:33:10.400 that had ever happened.

00:33:11.140 It was really dismaying

00:33:12.160 to see the clerks

00:33:13.740 leaking like this.

00:33:15.880 But that was

00:33:16.900 a qualitatively

00:33:17.960 different situation

00:33:18.820 because those leaks

00:33:19.720 all came after the fact,

00:33:21.220 after the opinion

00:33:22.060 was down,

00:33:22.740 just providing

00:33:23.440 some explanation

00:33:25.180 and context.

00:33:27.120 In this instance,

00:33:28.500 the leak happened

00:33:29.240 before the opinion

00:33:30.600 was issued,

00:33:31.280 and it's an effort

00:33:32.680 to intimidate

00:33:33.280 intimidate the justices

00:33:34.740 into changing

00:33:35.700 their votes.

00:33:36.360 It's why

00:33:36.940 it's a threat

00:33:38.080 on the independence

00:33:38.760 of the judiciary

00:33:39.380 because it's designed

00:33:40.600 to try to move

00:33:41.720 their votes.

00:33:42.740 I think the effect

00:33:43.840 will be the opposite

00:33:44.680 in that it will

00:33:45.440 harden them

00:33:46.220 because no justice

00:33:48.460 wants to show

00:33:49.380 that they're so

00:33:50.180 unprincipled

00:33:50.820 they can be moved

00:33:51.480 by this.

00:33:51.980 Right.

00:33:52.860 Now, before I let you go,

00:33:54.320 Senator,

00:33:54.640 I know it's been

00:33:55.120 a very long day

00:33:55.920 and there's still

00:33:56.420 much more to do,

00:33:57.420 but I've got to turn

00:33:58.200 to your particular

00:33:59.340 branch of government now

00:34:00.440 because one of the

00:34:01.900 consequences of this leak

00:34:03.260 is you've got all

00:34:04.240 of the elected Democrats

00:34:05.280 up to and including

00:34:06.020 Joe Biden

00:34:06.700 saying that

00:34:07.820 we need to codify

00:34:09.380 Roe v. Wade

00:34:10.200 into law.

00:34:10.900 If the court

00:34:11.520 is going to behave

00:34:12.160 in this irresponsible manner

00:34:13.260 and strike down Roe v. Wade,

00:34:14.500 then we need

00:34:15.060 a national

00:34:16.060 pro-abortion

00:34:17.620 law.

00:34:19.420 Can Joe Biden

00:34:20.320 get that done?

00:34:20.960 I do not believe so.

00:34:22.780 I think he can pass

00:34:24.160 it through the House.

00:34:25.080 They've got a majority

00:34:25.880 in the House

00:34:26.400 and I think the Democrats

00:34:27.240 will stick together

00:34:28.020 and you may have

00:34:28.900 a couple of Republicans

00:34:30.220 in the House.

00:34:30.900 I don't,

00:34:31.700 I haven't followed

00:34:32.400 the kind of abortion

00:34:33.520 lines in the House,

00:34:34.340 but there may well be

00:34:35.060 some pro-choice

00:34:35.800 Republicans in the House.

00:34:37.960 In the Senate,

00:34:39.160 he will not get it done

00:34:40.260 because to get it done

00:34:41.920 will require 60 votes

00:34:43.580 because of the filibuster.

00:34:45.780 He would get,

00:34:46.600 he'll get all 50 Democrats

00:34:48.020 and I'm sure

00:34:48.560 we'll vote on it.

00:34:49.300 He will get Susan Collins

00:34:51.580 and I think he will likely

00:34:52.560 get Lisa Murkowski. 1.00

00:34:54.760 You get to 52.

00:34:56.960 I don't know

00:34:57.660 that you get any higher.

00:34:58.620 The other 48

00:34:59.340 are on record

00:35:00.800 that Roe is wrong.

00:35:03.880 In this case,

00:35:04.860 I filed an amicus brief

00:35:06.320 with the court

00:35:06.840 along with Mike Lee

00:35:07.800 and Josh Hawley

00:35:08.640 arguing to the court

00:35:10.520 specifically

00:35:11.160 that it should overturn

00:35:12.420 Roe v. Wade.

00:35:13.220 I don't think

00:35:15.600 there's any universe

00:35:16.500 in which we get

00:35:17.220 to 60 votes,

00:35:18.140 so I assume

00:35:18.980 the Democrats

00:35:19.520 will try to force

00:35:20.260 a vote on it

00:35:20.920 and they'll lose the vote.

00:35:22.580 Now, there is some danger

00:35:23.980 that Schumer,

00:35:25.420 in fact,

00:35:25.720 I think it is certain

00:35:26.680 that Schumer

00:35:27.360 will use this

00:35:28.240 to try to end

00:35:29.560 the filibuster.

00:35:30.960 Right.

00:35:31.740 There's some danger

00:35:32.560 he succeeds

00:35:33.300 and if this becomes

00:35:34.900 the issue

00:35:35.360 they blow up

00:35:35.900 the filibuster on,

00:35:37.200 they will have succeeded

00:35:38.640 in permanently damaging

00:35:40.900 two branches of government

00:35:42.400 instead of just one.

00:35:43.640 So you think

00:35:44.500 there is a chance

00:35:45.660 that,

00:35:46.600 as they've already

00:35:47.320 said explicitly,

00:35:48.360 I think,

00:35:48.960 that not only

00:35:49.840 will they try

00:35:50.720 to get rid of

00:35:51.920 the filibuster

00:35:52.460 on this issue,

00:35:53.560 but they would actually

00:35:54.600 succeed in doing so?

00:35:55.840 They could get

00:35:56.280 maybe a Joe Manchin

00:35:57.240 or a Kyrsten Sinema

00:35:58.200 or who knows?

00:35:59.980 I think it is possible.

00:36:01.840 I don't know

00:36:02.940 that it would happen,

00:36:04.440 but I think

00:36:06.060 their plan is to try.

00:36:07.400 One fast point,

00:36:08.960 I don't believe

00:36:10.380 any Democrat senator

00:36:12.800 has condemned

00:36:13.420 the leak today.

00:36:14.400 If they have,

00:36:15.060 I haven't seen it

00:36:15.820 and I was watching

00:36:16.440 for it.

00:36:17.560 It is ominous

00:36:18.960 that the Democrats

00:36:20.460 are not even willing

00:36:21.860 to condemn the leak

00:36:22.900 and everyone

00:36:25.140 should condemn

00:36:26.180 the leak

00:36:26.640 as grossly,

00:36:28.580 a gross violation

00:36:30.020 of trust

00:36:30.600 and it's ominous

00:36:31.840 that if Democrat

00:36:33.360 senators did so,

00:36:34.320 I didn't see it.

00:36:35.380 Wow.

00:36:35.700 That is spooky

00:36:36.640 and does maybe

00:36:37.400 tell you something

00:36:38.080 about how they're

00:36:38.560 thinking about

00:36:39.140 a national abortion

00:36:40.200 law or ending

00:36:40.960 the filibuster

00:36:41.660 on that scary note.

00:36:43.760 We must leave you.

00:36:44.820 We will see you

00:36:45.460 on Apple Podcasts,

00:36:46.700 YouTube,

00:36:47.320 Spotify,

00:36:48.060 everywhere you get

00:36:48.760 your podcasts.

00:36:49.740 Make sure you subscribe

00:36:50.380 to Verdict.

00:36:51.200 Leave a five-star review

00:36:52.200 if you don't mind.

00:36:53.440 In the meantime,

00:36:53.900 I'm Michael Knowles.

00:36:54.920 This is Verdict

00:36:55.540 with Ted Cruz.

00:36:56.420 This episode of Verdict

00:37:06.520 with Ted Cruz

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Verdict with Ted Cruz - May 05, 2022

A Big Damn Deal

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