Verdict with Ted Cruz - A Day In The Life

00:00:00.000 This is an iHeart Podcast.

00:00:02.540 Guaranteed human.

00:00:04.260 The Senate is heading for a nail-biter vote on whether to call additional witnesses

00:00:08.940 or to end this impeachment trial once and for all.

00:00:12.880 The Senator and I sit down in daylight for a change

00:00:15.380 to get his strategy before he heads to Capitol Hill.

00:00:19.340 This is Verdict with Ted Cruz.

00:00:20.700 Welcome back to Verdict with Ted Cruz.

00:00:31.000 I'm Michael Knowles.

00:00:32.160 Senator, I don't remember the last time I saw you in daylight.

00:00:35.940 Well, hopefully the sun shining indicates we're near the end of this journey.

00:00:39.760 I want to get your thoughts on the likelihood of that.

00:00:43.480 I want to get your strategy on the last eight questions today.

00:00:46.720 There are some reports coming out that John Barrasso, the number three Republican in the Senate,

00:00:53.540 says that the momentum is heading in the direction of not calling additional witnesses.

00:00:58.060 There are other reports that we might get a 50-50 vote perfectly split,

00:01:02.680 in which case I want to know who breaks the tie.

00:01:06.240 You know, it's an open question.

00:01:07.960 It is close right now.

00:01:10.140 We need 51 votes to definitively say the trial is done.

00:01:14.800 We don't need additional witnesses.

00:01:16.720 Let's move on to final judgment.

00:01:18.500 If we have 51 votes, we can wrap this up in the next couple of days.

00:01:22.300 If we don't, and I hope the momentum's going that way, as we talked about in the last podcast,

00:01:27.220 I think there are at least two Republicans who are pretty clearly going to vote with the Democrats,

00:01:31.940 Mitt Romney and Susan Collins.

00:01:33.580 That means they have 49 votes.

00:01:36.320 There are the two next most likely are Lisa Murkowski and Lamar Alexander. 0.98

00:01:41.420 I don't know where they're going to be.

00:01:42.820 They're holding their cards very close to the vest.

00:01:45.280 They could end up on either side of that.

00:01:48.260 And I think they're considering it carefully.

00:01:50.180 They seem to be genuinely struggling with this decision.

00:01:53.680 If it ends up 50-50, we're in a little bit of uncharted territory.

00:01:57.940 Under the scheduling order we adopted, I think Republican leadership's argument would be 50-50 means witnesses are not in order.

00:02:08.120 In other words, let's move on.

00:02:09.740 You can't have additional witnesses.

00:02:11.400 Okay.

00:02:11.540 I am certain that the Democrats will argue if it's 50-50, it means witnesses are in order.

00:02:17.320 So who decides then?

00:02:19.300 Who knows?

00:02:20.660 Look, look, there's not a whole lot of precedent here.

00:02:23.960 There's not, under the Senate rules, it's not, I can make the arguments on both sides of that.

00:02:28.320 I understand the arguments on both sides of that.

00:02:31.180 It is possible the Chief Justice will have a view.

00:02:34.160 It is not clear.

00:02:36.300 So the Chief Justice doesn't play the role of the Vice President.

00:02:39.220 You know, normally in the Senate, the Vice President breaks ties.

00:02:41.800 Right.

00:02:42.200 That's not the Chief Justice's role.

00:02:43.740 The Chief Justice's role is to preside.

00:02:46.180 Now, there's some historical precedent for the Chief Justice breaking a 50-50 tie.

00:02:51.140 That happened in the impeachment of Andrew Johnson twice.

00:02:53.940 But then the Senators got unhappy with that, and the Chief Justice receded and said, okay,

00:03:00.040 I'm not going to do that anymore.

00:03:01.160 So as with so many aspects of this trial, we really don't have a lot of precedent to go on.

00:03:07.240 We are in uncharted territory.

00:03:10.120 If Chief Justice Roberts decided to vigorously assert himself and make a ruling, I don't know

00:03:15.680 what would happen.

00:03:16.300 I don't think that's all that likely.

00:03:17.880 I think, you know, you may recall at his confirmation hearing, he used the analogy of wanting to

00:03:23.120 be an umpire in baseball.

00:03:24.620 Right.

00:03:24.880 I think that's what he wants to do.

00:03:26.440 And so one of the nice things he did, which he didn't have to do, but yesterday he enforced

00:03:32.320 a five-minute time limit on answers to questions.

00:03:36.380 That was the same thing Rehnquist had done.

00:03:38.780 There's nothing in the rules that makes him do five minutes.

00:03:41.240 Yeah.

00:03:41.440 But I think every senator was grateful because if it hadn't been a five-minute time limit,

00:03:44.860 you would have just seen the lawyers on both sides filibuster forever.

00:03:48.160 And you would have only gotten to a handful of questions instead of all, okay.

00:03:51.580 But that's an example where that was within his discretion.

00:03:54.360 Although that being said, if enough senators disagreed, 51 of us could have overruled it.

00:03:59.360 Right.

00:04:00.000 So it's, that sort of ruling is a perfect example of, I think everyone agreed with it, so it 1.00

00:04:05.940 was fine.

00:04:06.980 But where it runs into problems is if the Chief Justice is disagreeing with the majority.

00:04:12.380 By the way, you saw the House managers suggest something last night.

00:04:17.460 They said, we're perfectly fine with the Chief Justice deciding everything, deciding evidentiary

00:04:22.740 motions, deciding everything.

00:04:24.180 Now, look, you got to understand, that argument makes perfect sense when you're in the minority.

00:04:30.320 Why is that?

00:04:31.340 There are 47 Democrats.

00:04:33.120 On any party line vote, they're going to lose.

00:04:35.260 Right.

00:04:35.600 They know that.

00:04:36.320 Remember, we had 11 motions on day one, they lost all 11.

00:04:38.940 They understand that.

00:04:40.620 So if you're going to lose on any party line vote, it's in your interest to find any other

00:04:45.340 decision maker.

00:04:46.260 Give the power away, let somebody else make the decision.

00:04:48.260 And even if they think they're not going to win with the Chief, they got a better chance

00:04:52.420 if they know that they're outvoted.

00:04:55.040 It's sort of like, all right, an election recounts.

00:04:58.660 Have you noticed that when an election is close, the prevailing party never calls for a recount?

00:05:05.140 Right.

00:05:05.720 Like, whoever's been declared the winner, even if by one vote, you don't see that person

00:05:09.260 saying, we need a recount, it's always the guy who's lost.

00:05:11.960 Yes.

00:05:12.820 Because if you've lost, a recount is the only thing that can benefit you.

00:05:17.640 That's a little bit the same as what's going on here.

00:05:19.560 So obviously, then, today is going to matter a lot before we get to this vote.

00:05:24.440 The reason I wanted to sit down today before we get to the impeachment trial is I want

00:05:29.440 to hear a little bit about your strategy, how you prepare when you're going in, when

00:05:33.900 you're writing these questions.

00:05:35.220 What are you trying to accomplish?

00:05:37.460 What are you going to ask today when you get to the Hill?

00:05:39.900 Well, you're looking at, all right, what parts of the story haven't been told, what hasn't

00:05:43.760 been told as effectively as it should, what additional facts need to be brought out, what weaknesses

00:05:49.580 in the defense's or the house manager's case should you shine a light on.

00:05:56.760 Some of what I'm looking at, some of the areas that there are still aspects of the evidence

00:06:03.040 of corruption, the evidence of corruption of Burisma, the Ukrainian natural gas company,

00:06:07.740 of Joe Biden and Hunter Biden that still haven't been fleshed out and that I think need to.

00:06:14.360 Um, so for example, uh, there, there is an email exchange that, that happened when, when

00:06:22.840 Chris Hines, so Chris Hines is the stepson of John Kerry.

00:06:26.940 John Kerry was, was Obama's secretary of state.

00:06:30.420 Chris Hines was business partners with Hunter Biden and with this guy, Devin Archer, who was

00:06:36.400 Chris Hines's college roommate.

00:06:37.760 Three of them were business partners.

00:06:39.760 First, Devin Archer and then Hunter Biden both joined the board of Burisma.

00:06:43.940 They both are getting paid a million bucks a year.

00:06:46.700 And Chris Hines does a couple of things.

00:06:48.520 Number one, he sends an email to the, to his stepfather's chief of staff, to John Kerry's

00:06:53.820 chief of staff.

00:06:55.160 And, and, and he says, apparently Devin and Hunter both joined the board of Burisma and

00:07:00.600 made a press and a press release went out today.

00:07:03.640 I can't speak to why they decided to do so, but there was no investment by our firm in that

00:07:10.340 company.

00:07:10.620 He's trying to, trying to clear his name, trying to dissociate himself.

00:07:14.100 It's fascinating that he sends this email.

00:07:16.120 It's also fascinating.

00:07:17.660 John Kerry's chief of staff, notice he doesn't say Devin Archer and Hunter Biden.

00:07:21.540 He says Devin and Hunter.

00:07:22.820 So the chief of staff knows exactly who these guys are.

00:07:25.880 He knows what Burisma is.

00:07:27.220 He doesn't explain Burisma is this Ukrainian company.

00:07:31.000 You may not know it.

00:07:32.580 Chief of staff knew exactly what Burisma was, knew exactly who Devin and Archer was.

00:07:36.460 And what did Chris Hines do?

00:07:37.960 He went on to say he terminated his business relationships with Hunter and Biden.

00:07:42.420 And he said it was unacceptable to work for Burisma.

00:07:47.260 Now the white house defense team briefly got into this, but the house managers have never

00:07:53.200 had to ask a question, answer a question on this.

00:07:55.700 They've never had to address.

00:07:57.960 Now, wait a second, if Chris Hines thought it was unacceptable to work for Burisma, did

00:08:04.520 John Kerry think that?

00:08:06.000 Did his stepfather think that?

00:08:07.440 And did Joe Biden?

00:08:09.900 That, and look, one of the things to keep in mind also, what really matters legally, we've

00:08:18.360 talked about in any litigation, you want to simplify.

00:08:22.400 Your enemy is getting so complicated and you get bogged down in the weeds, you want to

00:08:27.580 simplify.

00:08:28.500 The question that matters, you know, I did Sean Hannity a couple of days ago and he had

00:08:31.500 five points that are critical.

00:08:32.960 Remember, look, that's fine.

00:08:33.820 I said, Sean, there's one.

00:08:35.640 You want to simplify to what matters.

00:08:37.500 What matters legally is does a president have the authority to investigate corruption and

00:08:42.260 credible evidence of corruption?

00:08:43.480 If the answer is yes, that's game over.

00:08:45.400 This case is done.

00:08:46.480 Now, and on the fact side, it's worth remembering that, listen, the question is not really whether

00:08:55.080 Hunter Biden is corrupt.

00:08:57.600 Hunter Biden, by all appearances, has led a troubled life.

00:09:02.660 This is someone who's made some unfortunate decisions in his life.

00:09:07.720 The question is whether Joe Biden made decisions that made him part of that corruption.

00:09:13.480 And I don't think so far the connection as to why this is Joe Biden's decision.

00:09:20.340 I'll give you another example.

00:09:21.540 So there was a question and I joined it.

00:09:23.300 It was a question that Josh Hawley asked that I joined and the two of us asked together.

00:09:28.100 And it was about, did Joe Biden ever seek an opinion from the White House counsel's office

00:09:32.100 if he could keep being the point man on Ukraine while his son was getting paid a million bucks

00:09:37.700 a year from Burisma?

00:09:38.440 And the White House team said, not that we know of, we have no, you know, you know, one

00:09:44.180 of the things one does in government, if one has a potential conflict, is you go to the lawyers

00:09:48.440 and say, hey, do I got a conflict here?

00:09:50.480 Right.

00:09:50.820 And you get an opinion and they tell you what to do.

00:09:52.460 And sometimes they tell you, recuse yourself.

00:09:56.260 Don't be involved.

00:09:57.380 So Joe Biden could have said, you know what?

00:09:59.600 This doesn't look good.

00:10:00.800 There are a ton of countries on planet Earth.

00:10:03.420 I'm just going to stay out of Ukraine stuff.

00:10:05.240 I'll worry about all the other countries.

00:10:06.800 Please, I'm not going to get involved in Ukraine because my son's getting rich off of Ukraine.

00:10:11.500 And maybe it's not right for me to do this.

00:10:13.860 So the House managers, the Democrats, did not have to answer this question yesterday.

00:10:19.540 And you're going to ask it today.

00:10:21.520 That's exactly right.

00:10:22.180 Are you worried that Adam Schiff listens to this podcast and he's going to get a heads

00:10:25.200 up?

00:10:26.400 You know, no.

00:10:28.980 And look, I will say this, though.

00:10:33.400 Schiff is talented.

00:10:34.740 He's good on his feet.

00:10:36.020 Yeah.

00:10:36.660 But.

00:10:38.840 It's interesting, the questions that rattle him, the questions that rattle him are when

00:10:43.140 you're getting close to the target.

00:10:44.840 So you're going to ask this question, are you going or they're going to be questions on

00:10:49.500 the same topic you're hitting, or are you going to change it up and go after another

00:10:52.820 angle in question time today as well?

00:10:55.060 Well, look, I'll give you another example.

00:10:56.740 So Joe Biden told reporters that he's never discussed his son's business dealings with

00:11:02.140 him.

00:11:02.360 And that was discussed yesterday.

00:11:05.620 But what wasn't discussed is there's somebody who disagrees with that.

00:11:10.720 Uh, and, and that's somebody who disagrees with that is Hunter Biden.

00:11:16.340 Uh, and, and, and, and Hunter Biden, uh, said that he talked to his dad about his serving

00:11:22.520 on the barisma board.

00:11:24.060 And Hunter said, quote, dad said, I hope you know what you're doing.

00:11:29.580 So one of these guys said, I do.

00:11:32.720 So why is it that Joe Biden and Hunter Biden are telling different stories that Joe says

00:11:36.400 he's never talked to about it.

00:11:37.520 And Hunter's like, oh yeah, I talked to him about it.

00:11:39.080 One of these guys is lying.

00:11:40.300 Joe Biden or Hunter Biden.

00:11:41.620 They're not telling the truth.

00:11:43.560 Another way to put it.

00:11:44.640 So, well, this sounds very interesting.

00:11:47.040 I mean, I, I assume that the democratic house managers are going to just try to evade the

00:11:51.180 question and filibuster, but it sounds like you've got a couple different angles to come

00:11:55.020 at today.

00:11:55.840 I want to know beyond the impeachment trial, you have, you have more work to do than just

00:12:01.520 sit on this impeachment trial.

00:12:03.660 What is a day in the life waking up, doing whatever you do in the morning, then going to

00:12:10.200 the impeachment trial.

00:12:10.980 I know what you do from 10 PM until about two in the morning, but what does a day in

00:12:15.460 the life look like?

00:12:16.260 All right.

00:12:16.480 So let's take yesterday.

00:12:17.800 Yeah.

00:12:18.420 Yesterday I got up, first meeting I had was at nine, was a meeting with, with Benjamin

00:12:24.020 Netanyahu, prime minister of Israel.

00:12:25.680 And so he's staying at Blair house, which is the residence right next to the white house.

00:12:29.940 So I went over to Blair house and then met with him from nine to nine 30.

00:12:34.060 And I know BB quite well.

00:12:35.400 I've met with him many times in Israel and in the U S we're friends.

00:12:39.600 Uh, when he and I meet it, it's, it's nice because they're one-on-ones, uh, we don't

00:12:44.360 have staff in there.

00:12:45.080 Just the two of us.

00:12:45.960 We sat and had a cup of coffee.

00:12:47.740 Uh, we talked, we talked some politics.

00:12:50.200 Look, he's in a crazy situation in Israel.

00:12:52.280 They keep having elections that, that he hasn't been able to form a government.

00:12:55.880 And so I was getting his thoughts on what's going on on that and what the dynamics are.

00:13:00.940 Um, we also talked a lot about Iran.

00:13:03.940 Uh, I think BB's leadership when it comes to stopping Iran from getting nuclear weapons

00:13:10.240 has been extraordinarily important, particularly when Obama was president and, and, and when

00:13:16.060 Netanyahu, we invited him to speak on the, the, the, a joint session of Congress and he

00:13:21.000 called out the danger of the Ayatollah Khamenei with nuclear weapons.

00:13:24.860 And, and the adjective I've used a bunch of times for Netanyahu is Churchillian because

00:13:30.460 it was like Winston Churchill when the Nazis were, were, were a gathering storm that he

00:13:35.380 spoke out.

00:13:36.120 He spoke out with a clarity, spoke out with a gravity and a weight.

00:13:39.460 And, and it helped stiffen the spine, frankly, of a lot of members of Congress.

00:13:45.840 One of the reasons Trump pulled out of the Obama nuclear deal is because BB was so strong

00:13:52.380 that he had, that, that you didn't have Republicans in Congress just give up on it and say, oh,

00:13:59.600 well, this is, this is done.

00:14:01.360 Let's move on.

00:14:02.160 And, and so I think that was very important.

00:14:03.960 So I started the day meeting with BB, um, met with him from nine to nine 30, then went

00:14:10.040 and met with my, my staff, my team.

00:14:12.700 And we talked strategy, uh, for the impeachment hearing.

00:14:16.100 We worked on questions for the impeachment hearing.

00:14:18.520 We just went back and forth.

00:14:20.300 Okay.

00:14:20.580 Where do we want to press?

00:14:21.600 And spent about an hour doing that.

00:14:23.480 Then I went back, uh, back to the white house and, and, and was there. 0.76

00:14:27.060 We talked yesterday about the signing, uh, of the USMCA, the U S, uh, Mexico, Canada trade

00:14:32.240 agreement.

00:14:32.920 Uh, that was out on the South lawn of the white house.

00:14:35.500 Um, president was there.

00:14:37.980 Greg Abbott, governor of Texas was there.

00:14:39.900 A bunch of senators, a bunch of house members were there.

00:14:41.820 Um, you know, look, it was fun.

00:14:44.560 We heard, heard, heard speeches.

00:14:46.120 The president gave him, gave a pretty good speech.

00:14:47.820 He was, he was pretty funny.

00:14:49.540 Actually.

00:14:49.920 It was almost like a standup comedian.

00:14:51.180 He, he was spending a lot of time sort of almost tongue in cheek, kissing up to the senators

00:14:56.200 and saying, Hey, I need your votes guys.

00:14:58.200 My fate is in your hands.

00:14:59.680 And what was amusing is he said, house members, I don't need you guys.

00:15:02.240 You already voted.

00:15:02.840 So you're like, I can ignore you, but Hey, the senators, you know, I mean, it was, uh, and

00:15:07.620 so he signed it.

00:15:08.720 He was giving out signing pens.

00:15:10.260 I've got a signing pen from USMCA.

00:15:12.200 So that was fun.

00:15:13.800 Um, and then from there went back to the, back to the Capitol and we went into the trial

00:15:19.800 trial started at one o'clock and the trial went from one o'clock till about 1115 at night.

00:15:26.220 Yeah.

00:15:28.100 Stayed in the cloak room for about 45 minutes, trying to see if we could find a, a, a deal

00:15:34.080 to get us to 51 and in this trial.

00:15:36.560 So I was negotiating with other senators, got in the truck, headed over here.

00:15:40.780 We recorded the podcast.

00:15:42.360 Um, I got home.

00:15:44.840 Oh, probably about two in the morning last night, uh, turned on the DVR and watched about

00:15:49.740 a quarter of the Rockets jazz game.

00:15:52.780 Don't tell me who won.

00:15:53.660 I only watched a quarter.

00:15:55.200 Uh, and then, uh, although if I will be amazed if the Rockets won, cause we're so shorthanded,

00:16:00.360 we're missing Harden and Westbrook and Capella.

00:16:03.000 So it, if we want, it's a miracle, but I have to believe in miracles.

00:16:07.120 I have to admit, I missed the Rockets jazz game last night.

00:16:09.380 I'll try to catch it tonight.

00:16:10.320 Um, and then, um, went to sleep about two 30, woke up this morning.

00:16:17.340 Uh, first thing I had this morning was a text from my scheduler saying, Hey, Lindsey

00:16:21.340 Graham needs to talk to you, uh, on impeachment.

00:16:23.840 So I called Lindsey, uh, Lindsey had just gotten off the phone with the president.

00:16:27.460 And so we talked about, he and I are both working to see, is there a way to get the

00:16:34.060 senators who are not sure where they are on additional witnesses to get them, uh, get

00:16:41.740 them to, to, to, yes, to get them to ending this trial now.

00:16:44.920 And so we're continuing to negotiate and discuss that.

00:16:48.360 And then I headed back to see you.

00:16:49.780 Then you came here, we had a cup of coffee and did the show.

00:16:52.120 This brings up a fascinating point because in the way that I was imagining how impeachment

00:16:56.920 goes, and I think for a lot of Americans, it's all kind of pre-planned.

00:17:01.180 It's all scripted.

00:17:02.100 Nothing is happening in the moment.

00:17:03.480 Nobody needs to wake up and call the white house and then call your other Senator friend

00:17:07.500 and this.

00:17:08.560 And yet from what you're describing to me, running into the cloakroom, hearing something,

00:17:12.080 writing down a new question, calling Lindsey Graham, he's on the phone with the president.

00:17:15.920 A lot of this is happening in real time.

00:17:17.740 It's not inevitable.

00:17:19.480 We don't really know how the story ends.

00:17:21.620 But look, I think that's very much right.

00:17:23.440 And that's not true of every Senator.

00:17:27.460 There are a lot of senators who are just kind of sitting there listening.

00:17:31.480 They're going to cast their vote and that's it.

00:17:33.480 Listen, I like to be active.

00:17:36.660 I like to be engaged.

00:17:38.620 As I told Lindsey this morning, I have to admit, I'm having a hell of a lot of fun.

00:17:43.980 Now, it's not good for the country.

00:17:45.620 I don't want to see it dragged on.

00:17:46.680 I'd like to see it ended.

00:17:47.680 But these are complicated, tough, strategic, legal, political, factual questions that are nuanced.

00:18:01.580 They're difficult.

00:18:02.180 And I think we're going to end up in the right place, which is the president being acquitted.

00:18:11.360 But how long that takes is an open question.

00:18:13.260 What it takes and how we get there is a different story.

00:18:16.020 Could you just take us really quickly through the – you're going to get this vote tomorrow, I guess, on whether to call additional witnesses.

00:18:22.740 If they vote no, no additional witnesses, what do the next two weeks look like?

00:18:26.600 So if we vote no additional witnesses, if we get 51 who say no additional witnesses, that we've heard enough, I expect that the Democrats will have kind of paroxysms of rage.

00:18:38.080 So we'll see several motions.

00:18:41.880 Then the motions will kind of be screw you.

00:18:44.020 There'll be something like I can't believe you did this to me, so I have another motion.

00:18:47.500 I have another motion.

00:18:48.280 And some of it is the Democrats will just need to get that out of their system.

00:18:52.180 And one of the strategies Mitch McConnell has employed, which I actually think has been wise and the right thing, is to make this long and brutal and painful to all 100 senators.

00:19:05.460 Mitch has told us 100 times this is not going to be pleasant.

00:19:09.120 Because he wants the senators to want to end this.

00:19:12.960 That's exactly right.

00:19:14.320 And there are few things more motivating.

00:19:16.040 This is a strange place.

00:19:17.140 So typically, we fly out Thursday afternoons to get back home.

00:19:20.940 And we're in our home states Fridays through the weekends.

00:19:25.220 Often, how things get done in the Senate is you're getting to Thursday.

00:19:28.600 Everything's at an impasse.

00:19:30.140 There's a roadblock.

00:19:31.440 And then people want to get out.

00:19:32.760 They've got a plane flight.

00:19:34.100 And so the phrase is, jet fumes are in the air.

00:19:37.060 And when jet fumes are in the air, you've got a bunch of senators. 0.96

00:19:39.740 And some of them are in their 70s and 80s.

00:19:41.560 They're looking to get out of here.

00:19:43.420 And they'll agree to damn near anything.

00:19:47.140 To get out of here.

00:19:48.520 Some of the angriest I've ever made my colleagues is on fights trying to limit out-of-control spending.

00:19:54.480 When I've ended up saying, no, I'm going to object.

00:19:57.280 And it's ruined their weekend plans.

00:19:59.380 And I mean, you cannot overstate how screaming and enraged.

00:20:05.420 You're joking.

00:20:06.000 I am not at all.

00:20:07.600 I mean, literally screaming at the top of their lungs.

00:20:10.660 Mitch knows that.

00:20:14.360 That's being used right now.

00:20:16.640 By having these be long, grueling days, what he is counting on is senators, both wobbly Republicans and Democrats, will say, I've got to get out of here.

00:20:27.680 Enough already that they won't want to extend things forever.

00:20:32.180 Tomorrow, if we have a vote, no additional witnesses.

00:20:35.800 I think you'll see several Democratic motions.

00:20:38.480 By the way, each motion, you've got an hour on each side to argue it.

00:20:41.020 So it will be, I expect tomorrow is likely to be a long night.

00:20:45.580 But then I think we will move to the final judgment stage.

00:20:51.000 So that would be Saturday, you would say?

00:20:53.560 Yeah, there's a period of deliberation.

00:20:55.760 And that deliberation is in closed session.

00:20:57.820 So the TV cameras are off, the reporters are thrown out, and it's just senators giving speeches and talking to each other.

00:21:04.200 And then we vote.

00:21:06.620 I'm not sure the exact timing of a vote.

00:21:09.400 But if we conclude that additional witnesses are not needed, I am confident that by Monday, this will be done.

00:21:19.080 State of the Union is Tuesday.

00:21:20.540 Right, right.

00:21:21.180 And so if we conclude there are no additional witnesses, I have full confidence we will push through whatever is necessary to get this resolved before the State of the Union.

00:21:30.060 And it will be a very funny State of the Union if this is all resolved before then.

00:21:34.420 What if it's not?

00:21:35.480 What if they vote to call more witnesses?

00:21:36.940 What do the next two, three, four weeks look like?

00:21:39.400 Nobody knows.

00:21:40.620 I mean, it is.

00:21:42.160 Presumably, you'll have a motion from the Democrats to call John Bolton.

00:21:46.800 If they're 51 who just voted for more witnesses, you have to assume they're 51 for that.

00:21:51.180 Yep.

00:21:51.680 Presumably, you'll have a motion on the other side to call Hunter Biden.

00:21:55.640 I am very confident we'll get 51 for that.

00:21:59.080 You know, Chuck Schumer is telling reporters there will never be 51 to call Hunter Biden.

00:22:03.600 He is full of it.

00:22:04.860 Really?

00:22:05.100 I mean, it's total bluff.

00:22:06.280 It is total spin because he's saying, well, our Democrats will vote now.

00:22:10.560 Well, look, even if four Republicans join with the Democrats in calling Bolton, those four are not going to say we will only call prosecution witnesses and not defense witnesses.

00:22:22.900 Right.

00:22:23.380 I'm confident if we're calling witnesses, if John Bolton is getting called, that we'll have at least 53 votes to call Hunter Biden.

00:22:31.940 By the way, Joe Manchin also said he might vote.

00:22:34.140 Democrat from West Virginia, he might vote for Hunter Biden.

00:22:36.620 And the point is, if we go down this road, we'll have at least those two witnesses.

00:22:43.700 An interesting bit of speculation, I've heard several senators say this in the cloakroom, that they think the Democrats are voting for more witnesses, but hoping, desperately hoping, they lose that vote.

00:22:55.860 Because a lot of these Democrats are terrified if we open the door to more witnesses and we bring in, say, Hunter Biden or we bring in Joe Biden or we bring in the whistleblower, that things get really bad because what they manage to do in the House proceedings is cover up all of the evidence of corruption.

00:23:13.780 We start bringing in witnesses and suddenly that corruption, you know, it's going to be real interesting seeing Hunter Biden on the floor of the Senate be asked a million bucks a year.

00:23:24.060 What'd you do for that?

00:23:25.780 What services did you provide for a million bucks a year?

00:23:30.320 And what'd your dad do to help you out?

00:23:33.800 This almost has me hoping for more witnesses, but I just want to be clear.

00:23:38.080 If more witnesses are called, this is not going to continue to be an every single day, 10 hours a day.

00:23:43.240 No, I think that's right.

00:23:44.360 So if the Senate votes to subpoena, let's say we subpoena both John Bolton and Hunter Biden, that's going to take some time to shake out then.

00:23:53.320 Those subpoenas will be served.

00:23:54.680 I think it's likely you'll see litigation, at least on the John Bolton side, with the White House asserting executive privilege, trying to block his testimony.

00:24:02.860 That could take weeks or even months.

00:24:05.140 And so I think what is likely is the Senate would go back to regular business for a period of time until such time as those witnesses can come.

00:24:13.220 And by the way, usually with witnesses, you have a deposition first and then you have trial testimony.

00:24:18.520 So if we go down the road of more witnesses, I would anticipate that being sometime in the future, minimum of a couple of weeks.

00:24:26.840 OK, so we'll get a little bit of a break and then the Senate has to go from this very intense trial back into the normal business of the Senate, back into possibly removing the president from office.

00:24:37.440 Yep. That seems like a lot of whiplash.

00:24:40.940 It is. And listen, I think there are a lot of Democrats really nervous about the direction these facts are going.

00:24:50.720 I'll give an example. Yesterday in questioning, Adam Schiff said early on, he said, if any part of the president's motivation is corrupt, then that's enough to convict him.

00:25:04.180 Now, does this mean there was a big angle on this yesterday, which was the difference between a private motive and a public motive, you know, private interest or the national good?

00:25:16.540 So and I think actually Dershowitz did a really good job of sort of breaking out three scenarios.

00:25:20.740 Yeah. There is one scenario, which is the sort of Mother Teresa, that you're making a decision because of love of humanity and the greater good.

00:25:27.960 No selfishness. No selfishness.

00:25:29.620 And he said, look, there are not a lot of people in politics making a lot of decisions like that.

00:25:33.800 And he is right in that. Right.

00:25:35.300 He said there's the other scenario that is the corrupt and venal, that your motive is purely selfish.

00:25:41.780 Look, it's give me a bag of cash.

00:25:43.940 It's bribery. Or for that matter, look, that's what's alleged about Joe Biden.

00:25:49.600 Give my son a bag of cash.

00:25:51.060 I mean, it is you want to talk about the three scenarios, the Biden allegations at a minimum are in category three.

00:25:59.020 And then category two is the big one.

00:26:01.040 And it's mixed motives where you have some public interest.

00:26:04.100 You want to do good.

00:26:05.160 But you're also looking to political self-interest.

00:26:07.780 And one thing to keep in mind, listen, with elected politicians, just about everything you do, one of the considerations you're thinking about is, will the folks back home like it?

00:26:19.540 And will this help me get reelected?

00:26:22.160 And that, look, I think politicians think about that far too often.

00:26:25.880 I'm a big believer in the proposition that good policy is good politics.

00:26:29.400 If you do the right thing substantively.

00:26:31.980 It'll play well back home.

00:26:33.240 But you see, you know, we just passed the USMCA.

00:26:37.420 Bunch of senators, bunch of House members voted for that. 0.59

00:26:39.660 A big reason they voted for that is their constituents want them to.

00:26:42.520 It's good politics.

00:26:44.760 Just about everything.

00:26:47.540 All right, let me ask this.

00:26:49.540 Let's apply the Adam Schiff test.

00:26:52.260 If any part of the motive is corrupt, and by corrupt he means thinking it will advance his partisan interest,

00:26:59.280 that it's impeachable and you should remove him from office.

00:27:01.740 Let me ask you a question, Michael.

00:27:04.680 Do you believe any part of Adam Schiff's motivation is partisan?

00:27:09.360 Oh, it couldn't possibly be not Adam.

00:27:11.420 Well, maybe yes.

00:27:13.080 I think we would all have to say, of course, part of Adam Schiff's motivation is partisan.

00:27:18.500 What a ludicrous standard.

00:27:21.240 Right.

00:27:21.480 He literally argued if the president had even the tiniest bit of political motivation,

00:27:28.020 he should be impeached and removed for office for high crimes and misdemeanors.

00:27:31.560 So if the politician had a political motivation at all, in any degree, then he's got to be thrown out of office.

00:27:38.300 Look, it shows this is a game.

00:27:40.640 They know it's a game.

00:27:41.720 Right.

00:27:41.820 They know that standard.

00:27:43.960 You know.

00:27:44.420 No politician could survive that standard.

00:27:46.180 Look, I'm shocked.

00:27:47.260 Shocked there's gambling in Casablanca.

00:27:48.940 But I mean, that.

00:27:53.660 Do you remember the compliment that was made of Bill Clinton that he's an exceptionally good liar?

00:28:00.060 Yeah.

00:28:00.920 Yes.

00:28:01.320 I'm just going to leave it at that.

00:28:07.480 I'm not even going to connect that.

00:28:09.720 We'll just leave it at that.

00:28:11.560 And it seems as though you might be paying somebody a compliment.

00:28:14.440 We have got to get you to Capitol Hill.

00:28:16.420 We've run a little late anyway.

00:28:17.560 And we need to make sure that you ask all of those questions of the House impeachment managers.

00:28:21.980 And then we will be right back tomorrow to see how it all turns out.

00:28:25.300 I do have to make one point.

00:28:26.520 OK.

00:28:27.700 We talked before about milk.

00:28:29.860 This is the most important point.

00:28:31.340 Two liquids are allowed on the Senate floor.

00:28:34.640 I need to tell you a major landmark occurrence this week.

00:28:38.340 Please go on.

00:28:39.340 Let's make some news.

00:28:40.340 Yesterday, I was looking over at Richard Burr from North Carolina.

00:28:43.840 And I looked over at his desk.

00:28:45.580 And on his desk, a page brought him chocolate milk.

00:28:50.200 Chocolate milk.

00:28:50.940 What is the...

00:28:52.920 Well, so I took one of the witness cards, the question cards that you write to the Chief

00:28:57.280 Justice, and I wrote out a question from Senator Cruz.

00:29:01.160 Mr. Chief Justice, is it the case that Senator Burr is the first senator in the history of

00:29:05.920 the U.S. Senate to have chocolate milk at his desk?

00:29:09.140 And I didn't send it to the Chief Justice, but I did pass it over to Richard, who cracked

00:29:13.400 up laughing.

00:29:14.360 So we have apparently made a new precedent that I don't think has ever occurred.

00:29:19.920 And the Nestle's precedent has been set.

00:29:23.860 When the historians look at this moment, they might say third time ever that a president

00:29:27.920 was impeached.

00:29:28.760 First time ever a president was impeached without being accused of a crime.

00:29:31.940 That's going to be a footnote.

00:29:33.840 Because the big precedent is the first time ever chocolate milk was drunk on the Senate

00:29:40.220 floor.

00:29:40.480 And next podcast, ask me about what John Thune and I are planning to do about this.

00:29:45.760 Kahlua?

00:29:46.840 We'll have to wait and see to find out.

00:29:49.640 I'm Michael Knowles.

00:29:50.380 This is Verdict with Ted Cruz.

00:29:51.800 This episode of Verdict with Ted Cruz is being brought to you by Jobs Freedom and Security

00:30:04.800 PAC, a political action committee dedicated to supporting conservative causes, organizations

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Verdict with Ted Cruz - January 30, 2020

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