Verdict with Ted Cruz - A Tale of Two Trials： Trump Case Goes to the Jury & Joe Biden Makes a Surprise Visit to a Key Witness on the Eve of Hunter's Gun Trial

00:00:00.000 This is an iHeart Podcast.

00:00:02.560 Guaranteed human.

00:00:05.280 Welcome. It is Verdict with Senator Ted Cruz, Ben Ferguson with you.

00:00:09.300 And Senator, it is the trial of the century is how they were selling it on TV today.

00:00:14.980 The jury in the Donald Trump trial is going to have an awful lot of power on his future.

00:00:21.640 Well, that's exactly right.

00:00:22.800 We had yesterday, we had closing arguments from the defense, from the prosecution.

00:00:26.680 And today, the judge will give jury instructions to the jury, and the jury will begin to deliberate and deliberate until they reach a verdict.

00:00:35.520 And so this is what it all comes down to.

00:00:40.020 The witnesses are done.

00:00:41.560 The evidence is done.

00:00:42.980 And it now comes down to the judge and the jury.

00:00:46.160 And we're going to find out the outcome.

00:00:48.880 So we're going to explain what to expect, what the jury's options are, what is critical in the jury instructions.

00:00:55.300 And then we're also going to talk about yet another trial, which is the Hunter Biden trial, which is about to begin.

00:01:01.580 And we're going to talk about the rather astonishing fact that right before the Hunter Biden trial, Joe Biden decided a little witness tampering is a good way to start that trial.

00:01:10.720 We're going to compare and contrast these two trials, these two presidents, and the very different standards of justice that have applied to both of them.

00:01:18.060 Yeah, one's the trial of the century.

00:01:19.360 The other one, no one's talking about at all.

00:01:21.620 Let me tell you real quick about our friends over at Patriot Mobile.

00:01:24.180 I tell you what, I love knowing that every day when I use my cell phone, I'm making a difference and standing up for what I believe in.

00:01:30.940 And I love knowing that I'm no longer giving my money to woke companies that are fighting against my values.

00:01:36.740 Now, if you have a cell phone, technology now has changed everything in 2024.

00:01:41.500 You don't have to worry about having spotty coverage when you switch cell phone providers because you're going to use the same exact towers you're using right now, meaning you get the same exact coverage.

00:01:49.800 But the difference is you're not with Big Mobile, who gets big donations.

00:01:54.520 When you switch to Patriot Mobile, you're going to give donations to conservative causes, organizations.

00:02:00.520 And instead of being with Big Mobile, where they're giving big donations to democratic causes and candidates and organizations, including Planned Parenthood.

00:02:08.880 That is why I want you to switch to Patriot Mobile.

00:02:12.860 You don't even have to go to a store to switch.

00:02:14.900 You can literally call them.

00:02:17.400 972-PATRIOT.

00:02:19.020 With 2024 technology, you can switch over the phone.

00:02:23.080 You can keep your same phone number you have now, your same phone you have in your hand, or upgrade to a new one.

00:02:28.120 And it's all now done over the phone.

00:02:30.620 Plus, when you pay your bill every month, 5% of your bill, at no extra charge to you, goes back to support causes that support our First and Second Amendment rights, the rights of unborn children, and at Patriot Mobile, they support our wounded warriors, our veterans, and our first responder heroes.

00:02:52.020 I love giving my money to a company that's aligned with my values.

00:02:55.020 So join me today.

00:02:56.360 Make the switch and make a difference with every phone call.

00:02:58.980 972-PATRIOT, or PatriotMobile.com slash verdict.

00:03:04.960 Use the promo code VERDICT, and you'll also get free activation.

00:03:08.380 PatriotMobile.com slash verdict.

00:03:10.880 Use the promo code VERDICT, or 972-PATRIOT.

00:03:14.800 Senator, this has been a trial the media has been obsessed with with Donald Trump in New York.

00:03:19.440 We've also been kind of looking at them hedging their bets, and I'm referring to the media.

00:03:24.400 They've started to say, well, you know, Michael Cohen didn't work very well.

00:03:28.740 Maybe this thing won't happen the way we thought it was.

00:03:31.600 There is a chance he could not be convicted.

00:03:34.340 So let's go through what is now happening with the jury.

00:03:39.020 They get their instructions from the judge.

00:03:41.380 That'll take about an hour.

00:03:43.480 They then have to go deliberate.

00:03:45.400 And at that point, there's nothing left from the outside world but for us to wait.

00:03:50.160 So what is the jury's options?

00:03:52.500 The Democrats want Trump to go to jail.

00:03:54.440 They've been throwing these stories out there, the Secret Service talking to jail about maybe if he goes to jail.

00:04:00.480 Then there's the other possibility of a hung jury or not guilty.

00:04:05.340 Tell me and explain each one of these scenarios.

00:04:08.020 Well, as you noted, the judge is going to start the day by giving the jury instructions.

00:04:13.680 The jury instructions matter enormously, and we're going to find out just how wildly biased this judge is.

00:04:19.680 Those jury instructions are going to set up what the task is.

00:04:23.400 It's the judge's job to tell the jury what the law is, and depending on what the judge instructs, that could well be putting a finger on the scale and leaning in against Trump and in favor of the prosecution.

00:04:36.940 As we've talked about on this pod, there are many aspects of the prosecution that did not go well for the prosecutor.

00:04:43.180 Michael Cohen was a disaster of a witness.

00:04:46.560 He admitted to lying on the stand.

00:04:48.600 He admitted to being a thief on the stand.

00:04:50.280 That really is a first.

00:04:51.360 I don't know of another trial where the star witness admits and breaks news.

00:04:55.680 Oh, by the way, I stole a bunch of money from you, too.

00:04:57.620 That that as we talked about this on this podcast, that had CNN crying in their beer.

00:05:03.940 I got to say, I do feel a little bad for CNN.

00:05:06.180 I don't know what they're actually going to cover when this trial is over.

00:05:08.860 They're certainly not going to cover the Hunter Biden trial because that that would entail saying something negative about the White House.

00:05:13.940 So they won't do that.

00:05:15.120 By the way, you just insulted beer drinkers.

00:05:17.200 I don't think they drink beer at CNN.

00:05:18.600 I think it's more like a white claw.

00:05:19.920 I'm just going to be honest with you.

00:05:21.360 Hey, don't knock white claws. 0.99

00:05:22.900 I had white claws thrown at me.

00:05:24.400 Two of them.

00:05:25.980 It's you know, that's where you need cat like reflexes.

00:05:28.920 If someone throws a white claw, you got a duck.

00:05:32.220 You got a duck.

00:05:33.260 I will say you and I had a white claw at one of the shows after that happened.

00:05:37.960 Can we both agree that might be one of the worst drinks you've ever had in your entire life?

00:05:42.160 I've had precisely one white claw in my life and I didn't finish mine.

00:05:45.760 I didn't finish mine either.

00:05:47.040 It was like 75% still in the bottle.

00:05:50.020 It was disgusting.

00:05:51.360 But then CNN, I'm sure they drink that stuff.

00:05:55.240 You know, probably with a little pink umbrella. 0.99

00:05:58.940 But CNN is they're worried.

00:06:01.680 The media is worried that Trump will be acquitted.

00:06:04.960 We'll find out.

00:06:05.860 Look, the jury has not been sequestered.

00:06:07.680 So they're all in New York.

00:06:08.720 They all went over Memorial Day weekend.

00:06:11.560 They were surrounded by their friends and family, presumably.

00:06:14.200 And my guess is a whole lot of them were saying, you got to convict this guy.

00:06:19.220 You got to convict this guy.

00:06:20.120 They're not supposed to discuss the case with anybody, but the jury really should have been sequestered.

00:06:25.980 And the jury instructions are going to matter a lot.

00:06:29.880 And by the way, if Trump is convicted, one of the many things that could lead to an appeal is what's in the jury instructions.

00:06:36.760 And I'm going to break down in particular an issue on that in a second.

00:06:40.080 But you ask what will happen.

00:06:41.360 Look, there are 34 counts of falsifying business records.

00:06:45.520 And so the jury has to reach a verdict on each of the 34 counts.

00:06:49.040 And the options are guilty or not guilty.

00:06:52.340 Now, to find the defendant guilty, to find Trump guilty, the jury has to be unanimous.

00:06:56.340 So all 12 jurors have to conclude he's guilty.

00:06:59.420 Now, they don't have to reach the same result on every one of the counts.

00:07:02.560 So they could conceivably find him guilty on some and not guilty on others.

00:07:06.500 But it has to be unanimous in order to find him guilty.

00:07:10.020 If they can't reach an outcome, if they're deadlocked, then you could have a hung jury.

00:07:14.720 And a hung jury leads to a mistrial and they could start the whole thing all over again.

00:07:19.160 And in terms of timing, we don't know how quick this could be, that we could see a verdict today,

00:07:24.600 we could see a verdict tomorrow, or they could spend a week or two deliberating and end up being deadlocked.

00:07:30.260 All of those are possibilities, and we don't really know what the timing will be.

00:07:33.600 Can we go back to hung jury just for a second and explain that a little bit more?

00:07:37.860 Is that a positive if you're the person being accused?

00:07:42.740 Obviously, in this scenario, that would be Donald Trump.

00:07:44.940 And then you mentioned appeal.

00:07:46.720 Play that out for us, and what would that look like in the timeline?

00:07:50.440 Well, look, for a criminal defendant, a hung jury is a victory.

00:07:53.880 It's certainly a lot better than a guilty verdict.

00:07:55.680 So a hung jury means the prosecution failed to convict you, but it's not a verdict of innocence, of not guilty.

00:08:04.320 And so the result of a hung jury is that the judge is forced to declare a mistrial, and you can go to the trial all over again.

00:08:12.560 And so, but a criminal defendant in normal circumstances, and not a thing about this is remotely normal,

00:08:19.740 but in normal circumstances, a criminal defendant is pretty darn happy with a hung jury.

00:08:24.840 It means the prosecution failed, and with some frequency, the prosecution chooses not to try it a second time.

00:08:33.220 And so a hung jury is at least a partial victory for the defense, but as I said, it could all happen again,

00:08:40.360 which truly would be a nightmare, but CNN may be rooting for that, because as I said,

00:08:45.340 they've got to cover something for the next couple of months, and they're not going to cover the failures of the Biden White House.

00:08:49.840 So this is all that's left to them.

00:08:51.920 If this goes that scenario, where someone holds out and they say, hey, I'm not going to convict,

00:08:59.080 and then you look at the timeline down the road, could this still, would this be after Election Day, before Election Day?

00:09:06.160 And if Donald Trump wins re-election, right, he gets elected a second time, the question I've been asked,

00:09:12.200 and I said, I'm not a legal scholar, so I'm going to ask you, could the president, in theory, pardon himself?

00:09:16.820 No.

00:09:17.460 Okay.

00:09:17.900 No, the president can pardon himself from federal offenses.

00:09:21.240 And so the indictments from the Department of Justice, there are two different indictments from the special counsel, Jack Smith.

00:09:28.100 There is the one that is the documents case that's down in Florida for his alleged possession, illegal possession of classified documents at Mar-a-Lago.

00:09:37.320 There is the second one that is the indictment in D.C. for January 6th.

00:09:42.380 Both of those, the president could pardon himself, because those are federal claims.

00:09:47.720 He wouldn't actually need to pardon himself, because he could just direct the Department of Justice to dismiss the cases.

00:09:53.240 And so if Trump is elected, both of those cases will go away.

00:10:00.080 What he can't pardon himself of is the state offenses.

00:10:03.500 So he can't pardon himself of the New York criminal charges.

00:10:06.960 He can't pardon himself for the Georgia criminal charges, because neither of those are federal charges.

00:10:11.740 They're both state charges.

00:10:13.020 And so only the governor can pardon.

00:10:15.640 And actually, in Georgia, the governor can't pardon until after the trial.

00:10:19.540 So even in that circumstance, it's not subject to a pardon until after the trial.

00:10:25.020 So let's talk about if the jury goes in there, what is what has to take place for them to find him either guilty or innocent?

00:10:33.200 Does that have to be unanimous in these state cases?

00:10:35.740 So it does have to be unanimous, and it has to be unanimous as to each of the counts, if any, on which he's found guilty.

00:10:42.520 Now, this is where the jury instructions really matter, though, because it depends on what the judge asks them to find.

00:10:49.160 Remember, these claims, these charges are all for bookkeeping offenses.

00:10:55.400 They're for 34 allegedly false entries of bookkeeping.

00:11:00.480 Now, under New York law, those bookkeeping offenses are misdemeanors, and misdemeanors on which the statute of limitations has run.

00:11:10.360 And so the whole trick of this very creative and, frankly, frivolous prosecution is they're trying to bootstrap a misdemeanor.

00:11:20.660 And a misdemeanor is a crime that is punishable by less than a year in jail, and a misdemeanor typically has a short statute of limitations.

00:11:27.360 They're trying to bootstrap it by focusing on another crime.

00:11:34.860 And so if the bookkeeping offense is in furtherance of another crime, it can be elevated to a felony, which gives you a longer statute of limitations and a longer potential jail sentence.

00:11:49.060 But what is really going to be critical is what the judge tells the jury they have to find about this so-called other crime.

00:11:59.060 And I will say there was a really good article that was written by Byron York in The Washington Examiner entitled Judgment Week, how prosecutors will use the, quote, other crime against Trump.

00:12:10.020 And in it, he points out that the bookkeeping offenses are misdemeanors, but that the theory that they're using is that in addition to the bookkeeping offenses, Trump violated a New York state election law barring the, quote, conspiracy to promote or prevent election by unlawful means.

00:12:32.860 Now, that is a misdemeanor as well, but what the Manhattan DA is arguing is that the two misdemeanors, when taken together, add up to 34 felony charges and a maximum sentence of 136 years in prison for Trump.

00:12:48.000 And so, which is really, I mean, it's a bootstrap that is an extraordinary bootstrap, but what is even more amazing is it's not clear what the judge is going to instruct the jury about the so-called object crime.

00:13:03.520 In other words, do they have to agree on what the object crime is?

00:13:09.460 And first of all, what is the object crime?

00:13:13.740 Is there only one?

00:13:14.700 Are there more than one?

00:13:15.580 Does the object crime require an object crime of its own?

00:13:20.560 What level of proof do the prosecutors have to have to reach before they can find Trump guilty?

00:13:25.640 Remember, ordinarily in a criminal case, you have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt.

00:13:30.020 Well, do they have to prove the object crime behind a reasonable doubt?

00:13:33.360 And does the object crime even have to be a crime?

00:13:37.160 And all of these were argued about before the judge.

00:13:40.280 So last Tuesday, both sets of lawyers met with the judge, and there was a lot of discussion about the most frequently mentioned object crime, which is the New York state election law outlawing the promotion of an election by unlawful means.

00:13:55.300 And the question is, what is unlawful means?

00:13:57.760 Now, the prosecutors cite an alleged violation of the Federal Election Campaign Act.

00:14:02.360 And remember, we talked about in a previous pod how the judge would not allow Brad Smith, the former chairman of the Federal Election Commission, to testify about the Federal Election Campaign Act.

00:14:12.400 Now, typically, violations of that act are a civil matter.

00:14:16.980 Would a civil matter be an object crime?

00:14:19.420 Well, there was a back and forth about whether it could be a civil offense or if it had to be actually a crime.

00:14:25.740 And that also led to a discussion, and we'll see what the jury instructions say, about the mens rea, and in particular, whether it has to be a willful violation.

00:14:34.600 The Trump lawyers wanted the judge to tell the jury that they must find that Trump willfully violated the law, which means that he specifically knew what he was doing was a crime and that he did it anyway.

00:14:46.740 And so here's what Andrew McCarthy, who's a very, very experienced federal prosecutor and commentator and a good friend, here's what he wrote about that.

00:14:58.100 He wrote, quote, quote, whenever a crime is alleged, prosecutors must prove criminal intent.

00:15:03.640 Willfulness is the most burdensome intent standard in the criminal law, calling on prosecutors to prove that the defendant was aware of a legal duty and intentionally violated that duty.

00:15:12.520 So those questions, and by the way, what did DOJ say?

00:15:18.320 DOJ came in and argued, no, no, no, we don't have to prove any of that.

00:15:21.200 Instead, they said that the underlying crime, the unlawful means, doesn't have to be a crime.

00:15:27.660 It doesn't have to be a criminal matter.

00:15:29.700 And DOJ argued, quote, by its plain meaning, unlawful doesn't mean criminal.

00:15:33.620 It means violation of law.

00:15:35.040 That's what Michael Colangelo, who was one of the top officials at the Biden Justice Department and who left to join this this rabid partisan DA's legal team.

00:15:45.860 Colangelo argued, quote, the plain text of the statute provides that election law conspiracy occurred when the intended results are executed through unlawful means.

00:15:54.280 Because it doesn't need to be criminal unlawful means, there's no need to add the word willful into the jury's instructions.

00:16:02.680 So the prosecution's position on the object crime is, it doesn't have to be a crime, and they don't have to prove that he intended to commit a crime,

00:16:12.140 and that it doesn't have to be even a criminal act.

00:16:15.840 It could be a civil violation of the federal election campaign act.

00:16:19.760 Now, Trump's lawyers came back and said, I think, quite sensibly, for this to be a criminal conspiracy, there has to be a criminal object.

00:16:32.120 Otherwise, quote, we just have a civil conspiracy that it can't be used to elevate this into a felony.

00:16:42.220 The judge said he was reserving decision on the willfully issue.

00:16:46.320 So what the standard of intent is, is going to be a big deal.

00:16:51.420 Now, there was separately a debate about whether there has to be one object crime.

00:16:56.260 Does the jury all have to agree on one object crime?

00:16:59.260 Or could there be several, which with each juror finding a different object crime and saying, I like that one, so I'll use it to elevate it to a felony?

00:17:06.740 No, no, I like that one.

00:17:08.060 And what do the prosecutors have to prove?

00:17:11.160 Now, Colangelo argued, quote, the people weren't required to identify any object crime.

00:17:17.220 So you could have it be whatever you wanted.

00:17:20.480 Trump lawyers responded that, quote, the jury cannot infer that the unlawful means is established just by the fact that there was an agreement to promote President Trump's election in 2016.

00:17:34.620 Of course there was.

00:17:35.360 He won.

00:17:36.160 They have to establish some kind of unlawful means to make that a crime.

00:17:40.520 So these questions are a big, big deal.

00:17:46.040 And as we sit here today, we don't know how the judge is going to resolve it.

00:17:49.380 But if the judge sends it to the jury and says the prosecution doesn't have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt the object crime, it doesn't have to be a crime at all.

00:17:58.380 You don't have to decide what the object crime is.

00:18:00.440 Each one of you can pick a different object crime.

00:18:02.400 That really illustrates how the jury instructions can stack the deck for the prosecution.

00:18:08.640 My strong suspicion is we're going to see some pretty messed up jury instructions today, but we'll find out when the judge gives them.

00:18:16.340 Canadian women are looking for more. 1.00

00:18:18.980 More out of themselves, their businesses, their elected leaders, and the world around them.

00:18:23.420 And that's why we're thrilled to introduce the Honest Talk podcast.

00:18:27.140 I'm Jennifer Stewart.

00:18:28.320 And I'm Catherine Clark.

00:18:29.560 And in this podcast, we interview Canada's most inspiring women.

00:18:33.180 Entrepreneurs, artists, athletes, politicians, and newsmakers.

00:18:36.600 All at different stages of their journey.

00:18:39.060 So, if you're looking to connect, then we hope you'll join us.

00:18:42.240 Listen to the Honest Talk podcast on iHeartRadio or wherever you listen to your podcasts.

00:18:48.000 So, you look at all these counts, and I've seen this really pick up steam on CNN, MSNBC, and the others.

00:18:56.020 And it's the, look, we don't have to basically get Trump on everything.

00:19:01.020 We just need to get him on something.

00:19:02.900 And with so many charges against him, the jury will probably, this aren't my words, what they were pontificating about,

00:19:11.020 is that they're going to find something to convict him on, and that's all we really want here.

00:19:16.100 Is that a real strategy?

00:19:18.480 Like, hey, throw the book at him, and eventually, like, there's enough smoke, there's fire, they don't like him enough,

00:19:23.240 they're like, all right, we'll let him go on a lot of this stuff, but we're going to nail him at least on something?

00:19:26.620 Yeah, look, that is possible.

00:19:28.640 I don't think that's likely.

00:19:30.180 I think it's likely to be binary. 0.99

00:19:32.300 I think you're either going to have one or more jurors that say, this is all crap, this is garbage, no. 1.00

00:19:38.520 Or it's going to be a partisan jury that says, we hate Donald Trump and he's guilty on everything. 1.00

00:19:43.240 I think it is likely to be one or the other.

00:19:45.800 So, actually, really one of three, that you could get guilty on all of them, you could get not guilty on all of them, or a hung jury.

00:19:52.780 If you get the hung jury and you get the appeal.

00:19:56.960 So, there's no appeal from a hung jury.

00:20:00.300 Okay, so no appeal from a hung jury.

00:20:02.300 No.

00:20:02.540 Okay, so hung jury is a victory by default.

00:20:05.020 Yes, but the prosecution can bring the case again.

00:20:10.180 It could literally start all over.

00:20:12.420 And that can happen how quickly?

00:20:15.160 As quickly as the judge wants to.

00:20:16.640 The judge would have to panel a different jury.

00:20:18.520 So, a hung jury means, okay, we didn't get to a result.

00:20:22.580 Thank you, jurors, for serving.

00:20:24.400 And, you know, the judge could say, all right, next week we're going to start voir dire and we're going to bring in potential jurors and get going again.

00:20:32.120 I doubt it would happen that fast, but it conceivably could.

00:20:35.060 If you're trying to influence the outcome of the election and tying Trump up in office and that's your goal, then it would make sense, right?

00:20:42.060 You would want to do it pretty quickly and seven weeks can turn into, you know, 14 weeks, 15 weeks where you can't campaign.

00:20:48.580 What would be the political fallout of this?

00:20:51.980 And this is where I want you to put on a different hat.

00:20:55.440 I look at this and I think they're messing with fire here.

00:20:58.840 I think that this is a, there could be massive political fallout.

00:21:03.520 Democrats are obviously hoping for a conviction so they can then, and this has been reported now in Leica, the White House, that they're preparing for the president to make a statement from the White House.

00:21:14.700 So, it will, quote, look non-political being at the White House.

00:21:17.780 If Trump is convicted, if it is a hung jury, or if he is innocent, found innocent, how does the politics of all those three scenarios play out for them?

00:21:28.100 Well, this is all politics.

00:21:29.920 This is not law.

00:21:30.900 This is not a real criminal offense.

00:21:32.520 There's no human being on planet Earth who would be prosecuted for these baloney charges if they were not named Donald J. Trump.

00:21:41.340 And so, of course, the Biden White House is salivating.

00:21:44.160 Now, they're fairly clottish at announcing, oh, the president's going to do an address from the White House. 0.97

00:21:49.480 He's hoping to be reveling in, you know, Donald Trump is a felon. 0.95

00:21:53.340 We now know that.

00:21:54.160 Who knows how gleeful he will be, but it's all about politics.

00:21:58.720 You know, I do think Democrats are dismayed.

00:22:01.920 They really had hoped this trial would drag Trump through the mud and his numbers would plummet, and his numbers continue to be strong.

00:22:08.480 He's leading in virtually every swing state.

00:22:10.340 So, I think Democrats, you know, there was a big story this week about Democrats panicking about how badly Biden's doing.

00:22:16.220 I will say if there's a hung jury and the prosecution says, okay, we're going to go do it again, I think there will be a lot of exasperation expressed politically.

00:22:29.380 But I think at the end of the day, this trial has not accomplished what the rabid partisans wanted it to accomplish.

00:22:36.580 But I don't even know that they can see that.

00:22:40.020 Trump derangement syndrome is real. 0.88

00:22:42.960 There are people whose mind has melted.

00:22:45.760 Let's give an example.

00:22:47.480 Robert De Niro decided, you know what this country really needs is an angry left-wing Hollywood actor outside the trial.

00:22:55.440 And he kind of lost it.

00:22:56.660 He had a meltdown.

00:22:57.440 Give a listen to what De Niro said outside the trial.

00:22:59.940 Under Trump, this kind of government will perish from the earth.

00:23:07.380 I don't mean to scare you.

00:23:09.520 No, no, wait.

00:23:10.160 Maybe I do mean to scare you.

00:23:12.020 If Trump returns to the White House, you can kiss these freedoms goodbye that we all take for granted.

00:23:19.300 And elections, forget about it.

00:23:21.420 That's over.

00:23:22.180 That's done.

00:23:22.720 If he gets in, I can tell you right now, he will never leave.

00:23:29.000 He will never leave.

00:23:31.300 You know that.

00:23:33.200 He will never leave.

00:23:36.280 By the way, isn't that what they said last time if Donald Trump got elected, he would never leave and he wasn't going to leave office and yet he did?

00:23:42.800 I got to say, what I'm most happy listening to it is he stands there and goes, forget about it.

00:23:48.460 Like, yo, I'm in New York.

00:23:50.520 I'm playing him upstairs.

00:23:51.760 He's going to leave.

00:23:52.480 Forget about it.

00:23:54.160 Yeah.

00:23:54.600 Yeah.

00:23:54.860 That's De Niro for you.

00:23:56.720 And I love how they roll out these stars.

00:23:58.420 Like, they're trying to bring attention to this, hoping that it's their best political wet dream they've ever had, which is Donald Trump is convicted.

00:24:06.440 And then that brings me to my final question on this.

00:24:10.120 Let's say Trump is convicted.

00:24:12.560 It's been leaked that the Secret Service has been talking with the prison system about how they would incarcerate Donald Trump.

00:24:21.980 Can you run from prison if you're incarcerated?

00:24:24.840 If hypothetically that happened, how does that work?

00:24:27.860 Well, look, there is no legal bar.

00:24:29.540 There's no constitutional bar to a felon being elected president.

00:24:35.360 There's no legal or constitutional bar to someone in jail being elected president.

00:24:39.740 Now, I do not believe Donald Trump will go to jail.

00:24:42.460 That will not be the outcome.

00:24:44.400 I think even this rabid partisan judge would allow him to be free while the appeal was pending.

00:24:52.240 And I think if they tried to put him in jail, you would see an emergency appeal.

00:24:57.260 And I do not think he is going to jail.

00:24:59.800 So I think that is in the rabid fantasies of left-wing delusions.

00:25:05.860 But I think if they did actually put him in jail, I mean, I said this on a previous pod, if they did actually put him in jail, I think he'd win the presidency with 300 or more electoral votes.

00:25:16.900 Yeah, and the crazy thing is, we've been talking so much about this case.

00:25:21.920 There's another very big case that starts with Hunter Biden.

00:25:26.320 I want to get into that.

00:25:27.280 But first, I want to take a moment and say thank you.

00:25:30.240 So many of you that are Vertic listeners have gotten involved with an incredible organization called Preborn.

00:25:38.580 Preborn is helping save the lives of countless unborn babies.

00:25:44.440 They're doing it by allowing mothers to hear their baby's heart on ultrasound.

00:25:52.940 You may not realize this, but the heart of a child begins to form at conception.

00:25:58.780 And at just at three weeks, it's already beating.

00:26:01.220 At five weeks, a baby's heartbeat can be heard on that vitally important ultrasound.

00:26:07.080 That's why we partner with Preborn, because we need to help these precious babies. 0.95

00:26:11.940 And every day, Preborn's networks of clinics rescues 200 babies from abortion.

00:26:20.200 When a mother with an unplanned pregnancy meets her baby on ultrasound and hears their baby's heartbeat,

00:26:27.440 it is a divine encounter that literally doubles a baby's chance at life.

00:26:33.200 By six weeks, a child's eyes are forming.

00:26:36.020 By 10 weeks, a baby is able to suck his or her own thumb.

00:26:40.260 And for just $28, you could be the difference for just $28 between the life or death of a child.

00:26:48.780 All gifts to Preborn are tax deductible.

00:26:51.620 You can donate easily by just dialing pound 250.

00:26:56.440 That's pound 250, and say the keyword baby.

00:27:02.160 That's pound 250, say the keyword baby.

00:27:05.060 Or you can also donate securely online at preborn.com slash verdict.

00:27:12.980 That's preborn.com slash verdict.

00:27:16.380 And to all you that have already gotten involved, thank you so much for being involved in fighting back

00:27:22.180 against the radicals at Planned Parenthood.

00:27:24.460 All right, Senator, I want to get to the other big case, and it is a very big case.

00:27:30.260 It is a case that apparently is so nerve-wracking in the White House,

00:27:35.000 it looks like the president could have been involved in witness tampering ahead of the trial of his son, Hunter Biden.

00:27:42.060 Let's talk about that.

00:27:43.900 Yeah, that's right.

00:27:44.460 So this trial begins on Monday, June 3rd.

00:27:47.600 Hunter Biden is going to face a federal trial for his gun crimes.

00:27:52.460 And one of the key witnesses is going to be Hallie Biden.

00:27:58.320 Now, who is Hallie Biden? 1.00

00:28:00.340 Hallie Biden is the widow of Beau Biden, Hunter's older brother who tragically passed away of cancer,

00:28:07.800 and also the ex-girlfriend of Hunter Biden.

00:28:14.540 And Hallie Biden is expected to be a key witness.

00:28:18.120 And Sunday night, Joe Biden stopped by Hallie's house.

00:28:23.620 It was about 8 p.m. on Sunday night.

00:28:25.880 Joe Biden came by, and Hallie was dating Hunter at the time of the crimes.

00:28:31.920 And she's one of the expected witnesses.

00:28:34.480 She was married to Beau Biden.

00:28:36.360 He died in 2015 of brain cancer.

00:28:38.240 And the prosecutors allege that Hunter lied about his drug use on the gun purchase forms.

00:28:47.720 And then that he illegally possessed at least one gun, which Hallie is alleged to have thrown in a public dumpster in 2018.

00:28:55.700 So she's the one who allegedly got rid of the evidence.

00:28:59.520 And so she's not just a witness.

00:29:02.760 She is a central witness in the case.

00:29:07.280 And the White House spokesman, when asked about, gosh, why is Joe Biden visiting one of the key witnesses in the case against his son eight days before the trial,

00:29:18.460 they said, no, no, no.

00:29:19.700 He visited her because of the approaching ninth anniversary of Beau's passing.

00:29:24.180 Now, I've got to say, that strikes me as a highly dubious explanation.

00:29:34.920 It naturally raises the question, gosh, did he visit Hallie before the eighth anniversary, before the seventh anniversary, the sixth, fifth, fourth, third, second, first?

00:29:47.160 And if he did, I'm unaware of it.

00:29:49.320 And you certainly would think the White House, if that was their line and he had visited her at any time previously, you sure do think the White House would have pointed it out.

00:29:59.800 But they didn't.

00:30:01.460 And I've got to say, for the president of the United States, listen, when the president travels, the president never travels quietly.

00:30:08.600 It's not subtle.

00:30:10.580 You come in with a motorcade, with Secret Service.

00:30:13.380 And so for him to go, it's brazen.

00:30:16.960 It is Joe Biden and the Biden family feels that they are not bound.

00:30:23.520 They behave as if they feel that they're not bound by criminal law, by any restrictions, that he's entitled to go.

00:30:31.460 And the natural presumption is that he had a conversation with her about what she was going to say when she testifies.

00:30:37.660 Yeah, right.

00:30:39.200 It would be important.

00:30:40.080 Hey, we want to know what you're going to say.

00:30:41.480 Or, hey, here's what we need you to say.

00:30:44.580 If anyone else was in this scenario, what traditionally would happen before a trial if everyone found out about the same way we did, regardless of an alibi?

00:30:56.000 If Trump would have done this, if I was on trial or you were on trial and we were going to meet with somebody that's about to be a witness, a testimony for a kid, like what would happen?

00:31:03.860 Well, you would expect the judge to make an inquiry of why were you meeting with this person.

00:31:12.480 You would expect the prosecutor to make an inquiry as to why were you meeting with this witness.

00:31:18.260 Did you discuss what her testimony was going to be?

00:31:24.780 So witness tampering is attempting to improperly influence or change the testimony of a witness within criminal proceedings.

00:31:35.480 And we don't know that that happened, but the United States, a federal crime of witness tampering, it's defined by statute.

00:31:45.460 It's 18 U.S.C. Section 1512, which is entitled, quote, Tampering with a Witness, Victim, or an Informant.

00:31:53.400 And it describes witness tampering as a crime, even if the proceeding is not pending.

00:32:01.320 And it is a criminal offense, even if you are unsuccessful in your attempt to tamper.

00:32:08.060 In other words, if you try to convince the witness, hey, you know, it'd really help if you testified to X, even though X isn't the case.

00:32:14.940 The witness might not do what you said, but it is still witness tampering.

00:32:20.080 And that's a natural question.

00:32:22.020 Now, I'm quite confident the Department of Justice is not going to inquire of Joe Biden.

00:32:27.700 What conversation did you have with the witness?

00:32:29.800 They might ask her.

00:32:30.940 It is possible they ask her, but I think there's no indication that the DOJ or the trial court is going to even ask what Joe Biden said to her.

00:32:43.980 Yeah, and the media was silent on this, excluding Fox News, which broke this story.

00:32:47.800 Here's how they reported it.

00:32:49.360 President Biden also made a surprise unannounced stop at Hallie Biden's house in Delaware last night.

00:32:56.060 She is Beau Biden's widow and Hunter Biden's ex-girlfriend, who is also set to testify in Hunter Biden's gun trial in Delaware that begins next week.

00:33:07.800 White House officials are saying this presidential visit to her house had nothing to do with that testimony.

00:33:13.020 They say it has to do with the upcoming ninth anniversary of Beau Biden's passing.

00:33:17.820 Jillian?

00:33:18.140 By the way, how often does the president of the United States of America make a surprise unannounced visit in and around Washington, D.C. in a massive motorcade?

00:33:28.040 That does not happen very often.

00:33:31.020 So, look, it is certainly possible.

00:33:34.620 Presidents do have family.

00:33:36.040 They visit their family.

00:33:37.120 So I don't know the frequency with which Joe Biden visits other members of the family.

00:33:43.160 Presidents do that. 0.58

00:33:47.740 What they don't do with great frequency is do it right before you do it when you're meeting with a key witness who is about to testify in the trial against your son.

00:34:00.020 That that is a dramatically different context.

00:34:02.640 And it raises obvious questions, questions that the media seems completely uninterested in asking and that I expect the Biden Department of Justice is completely uninterested in asking.

00:34:14.540 I was asked this question the other day and I hadn't actually thought about it yet.

00:34:18.120 And I was asked this question when I was on Fox and they said, if if Hunter Biden is convicted at either of these trials, will it have any impact on the presidential election?

00:34:28.220 My personal opinion, I said is instantly I was like, no, I don't think so.

00:34:33.560 I think most people know who Hunter Biden is.

00:34:36.560 They know he clearly has been trading off the family's name. 0.91

00:34:40.320 They know he's a drug.

00:34:42.060 He was a drug addict and did a lot of really bad things.

00:34:45.960 We've seen the laptop.

00:34:47.420 It's pretty darn clear.

00:34:49.560 Well, I don't believe it's going to make a difference.

00:34:52.040 So in the presidential election, do you believe that it will or won't?

00:34:55.620 Yeah. And there's a second trial that is set to begin in September.

00:34:59.800 It's in Los Angeles and it's for allegedly failing to pay more than one point four million dollars in federal taxes from 2016 to 2019.

00:35:09.100 So you'll have two different trials that are scheduled.

00:35:11.960 Listen, if the president's son is convicted and now remember, initially, DOJ tried to give him a sweetheart deal where he wouldn't go to jail.

00:35:20.060 And ultimately, that fell apart.

00:35:23.680 Hunter originally agreed to a probation-only deal to both the gun and tax crimes in June.

00:35:29.720 But he walked away from the sweetheart deal at a July court hearing where his attorneys demanded broad immunity of past conduct, of all past conduct, including violations of the Foreign Agents Registration Act, which could implicate his father.

00:35:45.940 And so he walked away from a deal that would have gotten him largely scot-free, but it wasn't.

00:35:51.740 And remember, I think that the judge may well have signed off on that deal, but there was enormous public scrutiny on it.

00:35:59.320 And I think that the judge decided, no, we can't do this.

00:36:03.780 Well, and even then, he was going to admit he was guilty in that deal.

00:36:08.800 So there's also, it's been out there in the media, like, hey, he was going to get the deal.

00:36:13.320 He's admitting he was guilty of these two crimes, which in many ways enslaved his father.

00:36:17.640 So if he's convicted this time, I'm not sure with a lot of Democratic voters, it'll matter.

00:36:23.200 Yeah, look, I don't think that Hunter Biden is guilty of gun crimes and tax evasions.

00:36:29.520 Any rational person knows that already.

00:36:32.840 That's kind of baked into the cake.

00:36:34.980 I agree with you.

00:36:36.200 It doesn't alter the election.

00:36:38.460 What this has always been about is protecting Joe and the relevance.

00:36:43.140 We've talked about this a lot, although it's been a while since we've talked about it on the podcast.

00:36:46.900 Look, Hunter Biden is not someone of public interest, separate and apart from his father.

00:36:52.980 You know, he is a troubled soul who seems to have struggled his whole life, which is the entire White House defense, that he has substance abuse problems and he's just had a hard time.

00:37:03.900 And I have no reason to doubt that.

00:37:06.000 That surely seems to be the case.

00:37:08.380 But the reason it is a public import is that the evidence at this point keeps piling up that his entire business model was selling favors from his father was corruption.

00:37:21.080 The reason this matters is Joe Biden, not Hunter Biden.

00:37:25.120 And these two trials are designed to insulate and protect Joe Biden, not to bring him in at all.

00:37:32.520 And as long as Joe Biden is not directly implicated, I don't think Hunter's being convicted will have any material effect on the election.

00:37:43.840 Listen, if his son goes to jail, that may be a very difficult thing personally for Joe Biden and emotionally for Joe Biden.

00:37:52.520 But but but at the end of the day, the Biden DOJ succeeded in what I think its principal goal was, which is protecting the big guy and ensuring that there's no investigation into corruption by the sitting president.

00:38:05.660 Final question on this.

00:38:07.360 What is the possibility of pardons for Hunter Biden by his father?

00:38:11.880 Before the election, I think zero after the election.

00:38:18.300 I think if if if Trump wins, I would wager large sums of money before he leaves office.

00:38:24.300 Joe Biden pardons his son.

00:38:26.480 And there'd be no political fallout for him because he's not running for reelection again.

00:38:29.760 Yeah. Yeah. If he's leaving, it would be it would be a Bill Clinton midnight pardon special.

00:38:34.720 And I think particularly if if if he loses, it's almost a no brainer that Joe Biden would do it.

00:38:42.700 He might even do it if he wins.

00:38:44.260 But but but there it's a more costly decision because he'd pay a political price for it, even if he as he was starting a second term.

00:38:51.440 Yeah, it's going to be very interesting to see how this plays out.

00:38:53.960 We're going to keep you up to date on it.

00:38:56.160 Don't forget, we do the show Monday, Wednesday and Friday.

00:38:59.600 Hit that subscribe or auto download button.

00:39:01.680 And on those in between days, make sure you grab my podcast, the Ben Ferguson podcast.

00:39:05.540 And I will keep you up to date on the breaking news in both of these cases in between.

00:39:10.220 And the senator, I will see you back here on Friday morning.

00:39:14.480 This is an iHeart podcast.

00:39:17.360 Guaranteed human.

Verdict with Ted Cruz - May 29, 2024

A Tale of Two Trials： Trump Case Goes to the Jury & Joe Biden Makes a Surprise Visit to a Key Witness on the Eve of Hunter's Gun Trial

Episode Stats

Summary

Transcript