Verdict with Ted Cruz - American Oligarchs

00:00:00.000 This is an iHeart Podcast.

00:00:02.420 Guaranteed human.

00:00:04.300 We have all talked for months and months and years and years

00:00:08.980 about the threats that big tech is posing to free expression,

00:00:13.660 to the First Amendment, to our public square,

00:00:16.480 to self-government itself.

00:00:18.420 Now, finally, the government is taking action.

00:00:21.840 The Department of Justice is suing Google

00:00:24.100 on the grounds of antitrust.

00:00:26.780 The U.S. Senate is going to subpoena

00:00:28.400 Jack Dorsey and Mark Zuckerberg,

00:00:30.920 the heads of Twitter and Facebook.

00:00:33.580 Big tech is finally being called to account.

00:00:36.520 This is Verdict with Ted Cruz.

00:00:43.840 Welcome back to Verdict with Ted Cruz.

00:00:46.360 I'm Michael Knowles, joined as ever by Senator Cruz.

00:00:50.220 Senator, I like to think that on this show,

00:00:53.380 we predict the future,

00:00:54.940 and I guess sometimes actually maybe affect the future

00:00:57.340 because we're talking about laws that could be passed

00:01:00.200 and big moves that could be taking place

00:01:02.500 in the federal government.

00:01:03.680 Last episode, we talked about this crazy story

00:01:06.260 with big tech censoring a New York Post investigation

00:01:09.680 into Hunter Biden and possible corruption

00:01:12.940 involving Joe Biden.

00:01:14.740 Big tech suppressed the story, shut it down.

00:01:16.640 We all saw it going on for days.

00:01:18.040 Now it appears the federal government is taking action.

00:01:20.940 All I've seen are the headlines, Senator,

00:01:22.560 that the DOJ is going to try to break up Google

00:01:25.040 and that the Senate Judiciary Committee

00:01:26.980 is going to subpoena the other heads of big tech.

00:01:30.140 What can you tell us about what is actually going on?

00:01:33.320 Well, sure.

00:01:33.860 This has been a big and momentous week on multiple fronts,

00:01:37.600 as you just noted, concerning big tech.

00:01:40.680 Let's start with Twitter and Facebook.

00:01:44.200 And last week during the confirmation hearing

00:01:46.640 on Judge Barrett,

00:01:47.640 we had one story that came out Wednesday night.

00:01:49.960 That was the New York Post blockbuster story on Ukraine

00:01:53.800 based on Hunter Biden's emails

00:01:56.680 and alleging on its face corruption by Joe Biden

00:02:03.600 and that he had lied in saying that he had not met

00:02:08.940 with these Ukrainian oligarchs.

00:02:11.540 The next day, Thursday,

00:02:13.440 and we recorded a verdict podcast

00:02:15.800 with that information that night

00:02:17.680 because both Twitter and Facebook blocked that story.

00:02:23.040 If any individual user tried to tweet out

00:02:26.440 that New York Post story,

00:02:28.280 you got a warning sign that said you couldn't tweet it,

00:02:32.460 you couldn't post it,

00:02:33.540 and Twitter said that this was potentially harmful.

00:02:37.400 Well, the next day, Thursday morning,

00:02:40.200 the story actually, it got worse

00:02:42.680 because the New York Post broke a second blockbuster story.

00:02:46.780 This second one was again from the same trove

00:02:50.140 of emails on Hunter Biden's laptop, allegedly.

00:02:53.800 This one concerning communist China

00:02:55.720 and an offer from communist China

00:02:58.840 to pay not only Hunter Biden millions of dollars,

00:03:01.600 but to pay Joe Biden himself millions of dollars.

00:03:05.260 The emails refer to Joe Biden as, quote,

00:03:07.680 the big guy.

00:03:08.540 And it's an offer of serious cash directly to Joe Biden.

00:03:14.120 So once again, Twitter blocked that.

00:03:19.360 And I have to admit, I saw this.

00:03:21.060 So I'm sitting on my phone

00:03:22.040 during the Judge Barrett confirmation hearing,

00:03:25.220 and I'm up at the dais and I'm on my phone

00:03:27.120 and I'm looking at the story and I'm like,

00:03:29.220 wow, this is unbelievable.

00:03:31.080 And so I put together a tweet,

00:03:33.180 you know, will Twitter block this one too?

00:03:35.380 And I hit send and boom, Twitter's blocked it

00:03:38.860 and I can't send it.

00:03:41.080 And I'm like furious.

00:03:44.100 And so I get up and called Lindsey Graham over 0.80

00:03:48.760 and he and I stepped out back.

00:03:50.600 And so the public hearing room where we do the hearings

00:03:54.440 is in the Hart Senate office building.

00:03:56.060 And there's an area back behind us like the anti-room.

00:03:58.140 So I pulled Lindsey back and I was worked up.

00:04:01.200 I said, you know what?

00:04:02.540 Let's subpoena Twitter right now.

00:04:04.120 So we're meeting, the judiciary committee is here.

00:04:07.000 Let's do it right now.

00:04:08.940 Get Jack Dorsey to come right here

00:04:11.180 and explain what in the hell he is doing. 0.50

00:04:13.960 So I got to admit, Lindsey's staff

00:04:16.820 was very worried about this.

00:04:19.000 And look, to be fair, they're sitting there saying,

00:04:21.440 well, let's not do anything to screw up

00:04:22.980 the Judge Barrett confirmation.

00:04:24.420 And I understand that.

00:04:25.460 And I'm like, well, look, obviously,

00:04:27.100 I don't want to do anything to screw that up.

00:04:29.500 And so they were nervous.

00:04:30.720 Let's just, let's not do anything else.

00:04:32.380 Let's just do Judge Barrett.

00:04:35.300 But this was so, so absurd.

00:04:39.600 I told Lindsey, we got to do something.

00:04:41.680 So what his staff has said is, well, look,

00:04:43.320 we can notice a hearing for next week

00:04:46.180 and vote on subpoenas next week.

00:04:49.840 And I said, great.

00:04:50.900 And Lindsey said, you know, if you want,

00:04:52.340 you and I can go announce it to the TV cameras right now.

00:04:54.820 I said, great, let's go.

00:04:55.560 We both walk out.

00:04:58.480 It's during a break in the Judge Barrett hearing.

00:05:00.160 So it's just, there was a kind of a five-minute break.

00:05:03.040 Lindsey and I walk out to the TV camera out there.

00:05:06.700 And we both announced together that the Judiciary Committee

00:05:09.920 will be voting on subpoenas to subpoena Jack Dorsey

00:05:13.060 to testify in front of judiciary.

00:05:16.860 And that blew up the news.

00:05:19.360 That was literally just on the fly,

00:05:22.100 Lindsey and me talking in the ante room.

00:05:23.880 And we agreed, let's go announce it.

00:05:27.080 And now this week we'll be teeing it up.

00:05:29.480 This is something that I realized during impeachment.

00:05:32.300 And I suppose probably the listeners

00:05:34.120 and viewers realized it too,

00:05:35.560 that I didn't understand before.

00:05:37.240 In my mind, the way the government,

00:05:38.980 and especially the Senate works,

00:05:40.360 is that everything is pre-planned

00:05:42.200 and nothing happens on the spur of the moment.

00:05:44.400 And you just know what's going to happen.

00:05:46.460 And that's that.

00:05:48.440 What I realized was that's not really what happens.

00:05:51.040 In the moment, I mean, as you described during impeachment,

00:05:53.040 you'd hear a question.

00:05:54.400 You'd hear Adam Schiff say something.

00:05:55.880 You'd go into the cloakroom.

00:05:56.960 You'd talk to Senator so-and-so.

00:05:58.480 You guys would make a plan to do this, that, or the other thing.

00:06:01.100 And obviously that's what's happening here as well.

00:06:03.120 Twitter's decision to censor this information,

00:06:06.960 to suppress it,

00:06:08.060 led directly to Jack Dorsey getting subpoenaed

00:06:10.800 on the fly, in the moment.

00:06:13.700 And we'll get into the legal issue, I suspect, in a moment.

00:06:16.460 But I think it is important for listeners to consider

00:06:19.220 just the way that our political system is structured right now,

00:06:23.020 that a U.S. senator in a hearing

00:06:25.440 trying to post new information

00:06:28.700 that has just come out from the oldest

00:06:30.180 continually published daily newspaper in the country,

00:06:32.700 founded by Alexander Hamilton, the New York Post,

00:06:35.340 trying to put that out there in the public square

00:06:37.400 could be censored by a tech oligarch in Silicon Valley.

00:06:41.840 That is the, regardless of the legal question,

00:06:43.540 that is the political situation

00:06:44.900 that we're looking at now as we head into these subpoenas.

00:06:47.160 So look, you and I, and on Verdict,

00:06:49.340 we've been talking about tech censorship a long time.

00:06:51.860 And a lot of us have been very concerned

00:06:54.000 about tech bias and censorship for years.

00:06:56.980 It's been getting steadily worse.

00:06:59.160 It's been escalating more and more and more.

00:07:02.820 Last week was a dramatic escalation.

00:07:07.420 Last week, it's one thing for big tech

00:07:10.740 to silence individual Americans speaking.

00:07:14.560 They're doing far too much of it.

00:07:15.840 It's wrong and it's, and I am leading the fight to stop it.

00:07:20.460 But last week represented something very, very different,

00:07:23.340 which is they silenced a major media publication.

00:07:27.460 The New York Post has the fourth highest circulation

00:07:29.540 of any newspaper in America.

00:07:31.520 And not only could you or I or any American,

00:07:34.180 you couldn't tweet their story.

00:07:36.360 Twitter actually blocked the New York Post itself,

00:07:39.340 prevented the New York Post

00:07:40.620 from posting their own story

00:07:44.020 and silenced the media from speaking.

00:07:47.180 And it actually, you know, Politico,

00:07:50.960 certainly not a right-leaning publication,

00:07:53.580 to put it mildly,

00:07:54.880 a Politico journalist sent out some tweets

00:07:58.180 about the New York Post story

00:07:59.660 and the Politico journalist got blocked.

00:08:01.820 And this is big tech asserting

00:08:04.580 the power to censor the media.

00:08:07.880 And, you know, if reporters had even the tiniest hint

00:08:12.140 of integrity,

00:08:14.100 they'd be losing their minds over this.

00:08:19.040 Right.

00:08:19.280 Because this is literally Jack Dorsey

00:08:21.100 and Mark Zuckerberg saying

00:08:22.280 they can decide what media outlets

00:08:25.320 in America can report

00:08:26.640 and what anyone in America is allowed to see.

00:08:29.260 Because if they can censor the New York Post,

00:08:31.480 they can censor the New York Times.

00:08:32.840 If they can silence Politico,

00:08:34.780 they can silence the Washington Post

00:08:36.340 or they can silence Fox News.

00:08:37.780 And crossing that threshold

00:08:39.900 of we're now going to silence,

00:08:43.780 silence the media

00:08:48.300 is incredibly dangerous

00:08:53.040 two weeks out from an election.

00:08:55.180 Certainly.

00:08:55.940 No reporter cares.

00:08:57.420 They're so invested in defeating Donald Trump

00:09:01.020 that they're willing to let Jack Dorsey censor them

00:09:03.960 and to decide which of the stories

00:09:06.160 can be published.

00:09:08.660 And it's it's these are these are American oligarchs.

00:09:12.060 I mean, you want to talk about the oligarchs of Russia?

00:09:14.400 These are oligarchs with money that that believe

00:09:17.440 they're drunk on their own power.

00:09:20.400 Right.

00:09:20.920 I think I think this is the point

00:09:22.420 when when people use the phrase fake news,

00:09:24.400 I think sometimes it's a little bit ambiguous

00:09:26.700 what that means.

00:09:27.700 But I think in its most precise meaning,

00:09:30.220 it's not that every single news story is false.

00:09:32.860 It's not that every single reporter is corrupt.

00:09:34.900 It's that the news itself is fake

00:09:37.560 because it isn't the news,

00:09:38.920 because the focus is not on reporting the news.

00:09:41.860 The focus is not on standing up to censorship

00:09:43.560 when the outlets are censored.

00:09:44.980 It's all just about advancing a narrative

00:09:47.120 that benefits one political party over another.

00:09:49.960 Well, and, you know, so the

00:09:51.500 most of the Democratic senators

00:09:53.960 have ignored this issue,

00:09:55.280 have ignored the New York Post story,

00:09:56.800 have ignored

00:09:57.420 ignored Twitter censorship

00:10:01.060 and Facebook censorship.

00:10:04.200 By the way, the Biden campaign has ignored it.

00:10:07.180 So Joe Biden,

00:10:08.440 about the only thing the Biden campaign has said

00:10:10.420 is there's no meeting with the oligarch

00:10:12.280 on his official schedule.

00:10:13.940 So they haven't denied

00:10:15.160 that this was Hunter Biden's laptop.

00:10:16.840 They haven't denied

00:10:17.520 that these are Hunter Biden's emails.

00:10:19.180 They haven't denied that Joe Biden

00:10:20.880 met with the oligarch,

00:10:22.520 even though he said said previously he did not.

00:10:25.100 They haven't denied that

00:10:26.360 that communist China

00:10:27.360 offered Joe Biden millions of dollars.

00:10:29.600 So there's no one's even asked them.

00:10:32.080 You know, Biden did an ABC town hall

00:10:34.360 the day after these stories broke

00:10:37.420 and they didn't bother to ask him.

00:10:38.840 It's simply it doesn't exist.

00:10:41.500 It's been disappeared.

00:10:43.580 But when it comes to Democratic senators,

00:10:46.340 to the extent they've said anything about it,

00:10:48.880 their talking point has been

00:10:50.600 this is Russian disinformation.

00:10:53.660 OK, well, I'm not aware of any evidence of that.

00:10:57.920 Um, the director of national intelligence

00:11:00.400 has said it's not.

00:11:01.740 But if somebody has evidence

00:11:03.560 that it's Russian disinformation, great.

00:11:05.280 Show us the evidence.

00:11:06.080 Look, if these emails are fake,

00:11:07.880 that's highly relevant.

00:11:09.480 I if they if they're.

00:11:11.240 But at this point, Joe Biden

00:11:12.360 isn't claiming they're fake.

00:11:14.120 Right.

00:11:14.340 Well, it would seem, you know,

00:11:16.600 the fact that the Biden campaign

00:11:18.520 won't deny it

00:11:19.340 and the fact that photos

00:11:20.620 were released as well.

00:11:22.120 Either these Russian disinformers 0.99

00:11:23.920 have the greatest Photoshop skills

00:11:25.960 in the world,

00:11:26.400 or what we're looking at

00:11:28.060 is legitimate material

00:11:29.940 from Hunter Biden's computer.

00:11:32.220 If something's fake,

00:11:33.280 that's actually what journalism is for.

00:11:36.340 So I'm perfectly fine

00:11:37.760 with people reporting it.

00:11:38.800 If you share the New York Post story,

00:11:40.600 it turns out the story is wrong.

00:11:41.820 Fine.

00:11:42.120 Then they'd put out the refutation

00:11:43.500 and show that it's wrong.

00:11:44.860 But big tech doesn't want to do that.

00:11:46.720 They just simply want

00:11:47.720 to make it disappear.

00:11:48.840 And I think big tech believes

00:11:53.280 they are not accountable

00:11:54.340 to anybody.

00:11:56.200 And that's why I think

00:11:57.380 it's so important

00:11:58.260 that they testify.

00:12:00.240 Oh, I think so as well.

00:12:01.920 I was thrilled

00:12:02.860 when I saw that you were calling

00:12:04.460 for Dorsey and Zuckerberg

00:12:05.980 to come and testify.

00:12:07.660 I have to ask you

00:12:08.740 for a little behind the scenes,

00:12:10.000 though, a little cloakroom gossip,

00:12:11.360 if you don't mind,

00:12:12.060 which is that I've seen headlines

00:12:13.200 that some Republicans

00:12:14.600 on the committee are wavering.

00:12:17.320 That's the term

00:12:17.860 that's been reported.

00:12:18.840 Are people going soft here?

00:12:20.580 Are we actually going to hear

00:12:21.500 from Zuckerberg and Dorsey

00:12:22.960 or not?

00:12:24.100 I believe we will.

00:12:25.780 It is true.

00:12:26.920 We are having,

00:12:27.880 I guess what I'll characterize

00:12:30.120 as vigorous internal conversations.

00:12:33.600 Right.

00:12:34.680 We were supposed to vote today.

00:12:36.640 This is Tuesday.

00:12:37.380 You and I are talking.

00:12:38.200 I think the pod

00:12:38.660 will probably come out tomorrow,

00:12:39.760 but we were supposed

00:12:41.080 to vote today on the subpoenas.

00:12:42.640 We haven't voted today.

00:12:44.680 There is a vote noticed

00:12:46.420 for Thursday.

00:12:47.680 So two days from now

00:12:49.360 on the subpoenas.

00:12:50.900 Twitter and Facebook

00:12:52.020 are right now negotiating

00:12:53.520 with the Judiciary Committee

00:12:54.860 about potentially appearing voluntarily.

00:12:59.260 And actually next week,

00:13:01.460 they're going to be appearing

00:13:03.040 before the Commerce Committee.

00:13:04.520 I also serve

00:13:05.280 on the Commerce Committee.

00:13:06.400 So I'm going to be

00:13:07.000 at a hearing next week

00:13:08.020 with the heads of Google,

00:13:09.440 Facebook and Twitter anyway.

00:13:11.960 Commerce is a very different committee

00:13:14.140 than Judiciary.

00:13:14.720 I'm on both of the committees,

00:13:15.860 so I'm fine with that.

00:13:18.440 But Commerce,

00:13:19.340 the issue is Commerce focuses

00:13:20.740 on Section 230

00:13:21.820 will be part of the discussion

00:13:23.080 in the Commerce hearing.

00:13:25.580 But Judiciary is on both sides,

00:13:29.560 Democrat and Republican,

00:13:30.800 frankly,

00:13:31.880 manned by junkyard dog prosecutors

00:13:35.940 who know how to pound

00:13:37.280 the hell out of a witness.

00:13:38.460 It's just a different,

00:13:39.800 that ain't Commerce.

00:13:40.760 Commerce is lovey-dovey,

00:13:42.060 kumbaya.

00:13:42.440 The, it's a lot easier

00:13:44.700 to testify in front of Commerce

00:13:46.000 than Judiciary.

00:13:47.440 What I am pressing for,

00:13:49.220 what I want to see happen,

00:13:51.100 is I want to see Dorsey

00:13:53.020 and Zuckerberg testify in person.

00:13:55.700 They prefer to do it remotely.

00:13:57.720 I want to drag their asses 0.94

00:13:59.600 to Washington to sit down

00:14:01.240 in that hearing

00:14:01.800 and answer questions.

00:14:02.980 And I think it needs to be

00:14:04.240 before the election.

00:14:06.080 I believe we'll see them testify

00:14:07.980 before the election.

00:14:09.800 I hope it's in person.

00:14:12.160 That's what I'm pressing for.

00:14:15.500 And whether it is by subpoena

00:14:17.660 or voluntary,

00:14:19.120 it doesn't really matter.

00:14:21.260 My objective is that they testify.

00:14:23.100 If they agree to voluntarily

00:14:24.160 show up, fine,

00:14:25.920 as long as it's in person

00:14:28.440 before the election.

00:14:29.540 But where the votes are

00:14:31.500 on Judiciary,

00:14:32.140 I don't know.

00:14:32.620 We may find out on Thursday.

00:14:34.320 We may see it teed up for a vote.

00:14:36.260 I think we'll see

00:14:37.360 all the Republicans

00:14:38.080 come on board

00:14:38.800 if it actually gets pressed

00:14:40.000 to a vote.

00:14:40.640 I think there's some folks

00:14:41.540 that are nervous,

00:14:44.180 but nervous is not

00:14:45.220 the same thing as voting now.

00:14:47.060 You know, Senator,

00:14:47.660 I read the mailbag

00:14:48.740 to this show

00:14:49.440 and we get a lot of emails

00:14:51.180 and a huge number of people

00:14:53.640 are asking when these guys

00:14:56.060 are going to be dragged

00:14:56.820 in front of Congress

00:14:58.000 and in front of the Senate

00:14:58.860 to answer questions.

00:14:59.820 So I hope that your colleagues

00:15:00.920 on the committee

00:15:01.500 get the message.

00:15:02.720 Very interesting.

00:15:03.580 It actually had not occurred to me

00:15:04.900 that testifying before

00:15:06.100 different committees

00:15:06.980 has a different tenor.

00:15:07.880 because you have different people

00:15:08.880 on those committees

00:15:09.540 and I'm not at all surprised

00:15:11.440 the Judiciary Committee

00:15:12.380 has more of a bulldog

00:15:14.220 kind of style.

00:15:15.300 I certainly want to see them

00:15:16.360 dragged before that committee

00:15:18.200 and answer those questions.

00:15:19.660 I also have to ask you, though,

00:15:20.840 about this separate question.

00:15:21.840 We've been focusing

00:15:22.340 on Facebook and Twitter,

00:15:24.140 but the big kahuna,

00:15:25.380 the real giant in this space

00:15:27.660 is actually not Twitter

00:15:29.300 and it's not even Facebook.

00:15:31.020 It's Google.

00:15:31.980 The DOJ has just announced

00:15:33.620 that they are going to sue Google

00:15:35.280 on antitrust grounds.

00:15:37.860 Obviously, I am not an expert

00:15:39.740 in antitrust law

00:15:40.720 and I suspect most people

00:15:42.020 who are calling for big tech

00:15:43.460 to be broken up

00:15:44.180 aren't expert in that either.

00:15:46.340 What is the case here?

00:15:48.120 And do you think

00:15:49.140 it will be successful

00:15:49.900 and do you think it's advisable?

00:15:51.720 So I'm very glad DOJ

00:15:53.060 is moving forward

00:15:53.880 and filing a case.

00:15:54.980 The exact details of it

00:15:56.320 will be coming out

00:15:57.220 in coming days and weeks.

00:15:59.100 But as I understand it,

00:16:00.100 they're bringing a case

00:16:00.980 that Google is a monopoly

00:16:02.140 and it's abusing

00:16:03.160 its monopoly power.

00:16:05.100 And at least some of what

00:16:06.260 the case is focusing on

00:16:08.000 is that they force,

00:16:10.040 for example,

00:16:10.860 phone companies

00:16:11.640 to preload Google on it

00:16:14.040 as your search engine

00:16:15.240 when you get a phone.

00:16:17.060 And they use their market power

00:16:20.380 to prevent competitors

00:16:21.460 from doing the same.

00:16:22.420 And look,

00:16:24.780 Google is very good

00:16:26.120 at leveraging one monopoly

00:16:28.960 and to power

00:16:29.920 in all sorts of other areas.

00:16:32.060 And so from the initial announcements,

00:16:34.340 that's what the case

00:16:35.300 is going to focus on.

00:16:36.760 I hope one component of the case

00:16:39.220 is using their monopoly power

00:16:41.660 to censor political speech.

00:16:43.940 That doesn't fall as traditionally

00:16:46.300 or cleanly into antitrust laws.

00:16:48.600 And it's one of the things

00:16:49.600 we've talked about.

00:16:51.460 In fact, when you and I

00:16:52.140 talked with Bill Barr,

00:16:53.160 I mean, I have in the last four years

00:16:55.080 raised this issue

00:16:57.100 personally and directly

00:16:58.300 with the president

00:16:59.240 multiple times,

00:17:00.240 with the vice president,

00:17:01.260 with the White House chief of staff,

00:17:02.480 with the White House counsel,

00:17:03.840 with the attorney general,

00:17:04.960 with the deputy attorney general,

00:17:06.220 with the assistant attorney general

00:17:07.380 for antitrust,

00:17:08.420 with the chairman

00:17:08.980 of the Federal Trade Commission.

00:17:10.220 I mean, this is,

00:17:11.960 I think it's the biggest threat

00:17:13.860 in the country

00:17:14.800 to free speech,

00:17:16.080 to a free press

00:17:17.340 and to our democracy,

00:17:20.120 to our elections.

00:17:21.220 So I hope,

00:17:23.720 and Google is

00:17:25.020 by far the worst actor.

00:17:27.420 So as I sort of rank

00:17:28.660 the actors of big tech,

00:17:31.240 Facebook,

00:17:32.400 I have problems with,

00:17:33.620 but comparatively speaking,

00:17:35.420 they're the least bad

00:17:37.200 of the big guys.

00:17:39.100 Then there's Twitter,

00:17:40.300 which is quite brazen.

00:17:41.960 And then by far the worst,

00:17:43.800 I believe,

00:17:44.180 is Google.

00:17:44.600 And Google owns YouTube.

00:17:45.400 So I throw YouTube into it.

00:17:48.080 And you remember Google's motto

00:17:50.500 used to be,

00:17:52.160 do no evil?

00:17:53.880 Yeah.

00:17:54.280 Don't be evil

00:17:55.160 or something to that effect.

00:17:56.160 Don't be evil.

00:17:56.700 Don't be evil.

00:17:57.320 Yeah.

00:17:58.340 And then they just scrapped it.

00:18:00.260 I mean,

00:18:00.540 they literally scrapped the motto.

00:18:03.280 And I don't know

00:18:04.040 if it was what,

00:18:04.960 they were twirling

00:18:05.700 their mustache

00:18:06.260 and like the fires of Hades

00:18:08.880 to which they were

00:18:09.700 condemning the globe

00:18:10.740 and decided,

00:18:11.900 oh,

00:18:12.020 let's not forswear evil anymore.

00:18:13.520 I mean,

00:18:13.800 it really is.

00:18:16.640 And the amount of,

00:18:18.320 look,

00:18:18.900 Google's worth

00:18:20.200 over a trillion dollars.

00:18:21.480 They have,

00:18:22.040 I think,

00:18:22.340 $120 billion

00:18:24.080 in cash.

00:18:26.760 Just like the change,

00:18:27.960 apparently sitting around

00:18:28.820 in the sofas

00:18:29.460 and between the cushions

00:18:31.340 and their sofas.

00:18:32.120 Like,

00:18:32.740 the massive power

00:18:34.440 Google has

00:18:35.240 and they are

00:18:36.120 completely brazen

00:18:38.560 about using it

00:18:41.340 to advance

00:18:41.940 their political ends.

00:18:42.860 And I will say,

00:18:43.320 I have a theory,

00:18:43.900 by the way.

00:18:45.280 So on these

00:18:45.960 New York Post stories,

00:18:47.060 we know that Facebook

00:18:48.200 and Twitter blocked it.

00:18:49.620 To our knowledge,

00:18:50.960 Google hasn't blocked it.

00:18:52.280 So I actually tried,

00:18:53.300 went to Google

00:18:53.820 and typed in

00:18:54.580 and Google,

00:18:55.540 it comes up.

00:18:56.280 And I have a theory

00:18:57.120 that actually the reason

00:18:58.280 Google didn't block it

00:18:59.520 is because they knew

00:19:00.640 this DOJ case was coming.

00:19:02.580 That they're on

00:19:03.620 mildly better behavior

00:19:06.460 because they're

00:19:08.740 facing massive litigation.

00:19:10.980 I can't prove that.

00:19:11.760 That's just a theory.

00:19:13.260 No,

00:19:13.380 it's a good suggestion,

00:19:14.340 Senator,

00:19:14.580 because I did wonder

00:19:16.040 at the time,

00:19:16.560 I said,

00:19:16.800 wait a second,

00:19:17.360 how's Google not jumping

00:19:18.480 on this bandwagon?

00:19:19.420 But of course,

00:19:20.100 Google is getting word

00:19:21.160 when you're talking

00:19:21.860 about an entity

00:19:22.440 as large as the DOJ

00:19:23.600 or the federal government.

00:19:24.680 Obviously,

00:19:25.240 they know what's

00:19:26.260 coming down the pike. 0.95

00:19:27.060 And what you focused on there

00:19:29.400 is search,

00:19:30.640 which when most people

00:19:31.480 think about how YouTube

00:19:32.640 is abusing its power

00:19:33.740 or Google is abusing its power,

00:19:35.300 they think it's through video

00:19:36.340 or they think it's through

00:19:37.140 advertising or they think it's,

00:19:38.880 but in this 57 page complaint

00:19:41.740 that the DOJ has just filed here,

00:19:43.800 they actually focus in on search.

00:19:46.620 And search is Google's core product.

00:19:49.180 If you make it to the first page

00:19:50.540 of a Google search,

00:19:51.740 that it has so much power,

00:19:53.920 so much more power

00:19:54.780 than if you're on page two

00:19:56.120 or page 2000 for that matter.

00:19:58.400 And Google, we know,

00:19:59.220 manipulates search

00:20:00.080 for ideological ends.

00:20:02.540 But what do you say, Senator,

00:20:03.920 beyond the ideological question,

00:20:05.360 beyond the free speech question,

00:20:07.960 what do you say to people,

00:20:09.240 maybe they're a little more

00:20:09.980 libertarian leaning,

00:20:11.280 who say, listen,

00:20:12.300 it's a free market

00:20:13.420 and Google's a private company,

00:20:15.540 sort of,

00:20:16.020 and if Google, you know,

00:20:18.120 is not to your liking,

00:20:19.500 well then, fella,

00:20:20.720 just go make your own Google.

00:20:22.140 Do you think conservatives

00:20:23.060 are betraying

00:20:24.260 our kind of free market preferences?

00:20:28.180 Yeah, look,

00:20:28.520 I understand those sentiments.

00:20:29.960 You know,

00:20:30.100 I will say, by the way,

00:20:31.300 that some of the voices,

00:20:32.720 particularly in D.C.,

00:20:33.800 that echo them,

00:20:35.560 some of the more libertarian outfits,

00:20:38.480 get a whole lot of money

00:20:39.640 from big tech.

00:20:41.120 And one problem we have

00:20:43.100 in our own neck of the woods,

00:20:45.640 in terms of the center-right,

00:20:48.180 conservative, libertarian world,

00:20:50.040 is there are some folks who,

00:20:52.160 if you write them

00:20:52.620 a big enough check,

00:20:53.500 suddenly,

00:20:54.080 if you look at some

00:20:54.940 of the most vigorous

00:20:57.200 defenders of tech

00:20:58.440 from all of this scrutiny,

00:21:00.980 for many of them,

00:21:02.440 there's a money trail

00:21:03.200 to be followed.

00:21:04.320 Right.

00:21:05.180 But let me take

00:21:06.380 the critique

00:21:07.520 on face value.

00:21:09.400 I am a free market conservative.

00:21:13.720 I believe in free markets.

00:21:14.820 That doesn't mean

00:21:15.380 we don't have laws.

00:21:16.460 That doesn't mean

00:21:17.100 you don't have

00:21:17.500 the antitrust laws.

00:21:18.900 The antitrust laws

00:21:19.900 have been on the books

00:21:20.700 for almost 100 years.

00:21:23.500 Yeah.

00:21:23.920 And abusing

00:21:25.680 a monopoly position,

00:21:27.080 which is what Google does,

00:21:29.120 has been against the law

00:21:30.680 a very long time.

00:21:33.340 Of course it is right

00:21:34.820 the government

00:21:35.340 shouldn't be regulating speech.

00:21:36.940 We don't want

00:21:38.040 some federal police officer

00:21:39.860 saying this speech is good,

00:21:41.120 this speech is bad.

00:21:41.880 That would be

00:21:42.420 a terrible outcome.

00:21:44.300 And by the way,

00:21:44.820 the Democrats

00:21:45.240 would love that outcome.

00:21:46.360 So we need to be

00:21:47.180 very cautious

00:21:47.860 about where

00:21:49.420 they want to take this.

00:21:52.020 But there's a difference

00:21:53.160 between that

00:21:54.040 and not letting someone

00:21:55.300 abuse their monopoly power.

00:21:57.000 And there's also

00:21:57.680 a difference.

00:21:59.140 Section 230,

00:22:00.080 which we've talked about

00:22:00.900 a lot on this podcast,

00:22:02.800 is a special immunity

00:22:04.200 from liability

00:22:05.060 that Congress gave big tech

00:22:07.240 that nobody else gets.

00:22:08.240 And it's basically a subsidy.

00:22:09.760 All right,

00:22:09.900 you want to put it

00:22:10.360 in free market terms?

00:22:11.820 End Section 230

00:22:12.880 because it's a damn subsidy

00:22:14.680 to the biggest,

00:22:15.960 most profitable companies

00:22:17.160 on earth.

00:22:17.740 It's corporate welfare

00:22:18.780 and it immunizes them

00:22:21.140 from behaving

00:22:21.900 like the totalitarian

00:22:23.320 star chamber.

00:22:24.740 And so that's

00:22:25.240 a pure free market argument,

00:22:26.800 which addresses directly

00:22:30.400 what the threat is

00:22:31.520 and the magnitude.

00:22:32.360 If you believe

00:22:33.700 in the principles

00:22:34.720 of free speech,

00:22:35.720 which is that we ought

00:22:36.540 to be able to speak

00:22:37.360 and debate freely,

00:22:38.960 allowing one or two billionaires

00:22:41.240 to have a monopoly

00:22:42.240 on every means

00:22:43.580 of communication

00:22:44.420 is a really,

00:22:47.120 really dangerous phenomenon.

00:22:49.060 Absolutely.

00:22:49.840 I agree entirely with that.

00:22:51.600 And I think

00:22:52.160 there is nothing conservative

00:22:54.460 about allowing

00:22:56.040 a couple of oligarchs

00:22:57.640 to dominate our public square

00:22:59.000 and control the flow

00:22:59.940 of information.

00:23:00.740 And of course,

00:23:01.100 there's nothing conservative

00:23:01.880 about letting companies

00:23:02.800 brazenly violate the law,

00:23:04.540 laws that have been

00:23:05.360 on the books for 100 years

00:23:06.620 or laws that have been

00:23:07.140 on the books for 25 years.

00:23:08.700 You have assuaged my fears

00:23:10.460 on this free market issue.

00:23:12.940 And I think a lot of conservatives

00:23:14.420 are recognizing that threat.

00:23:16.860 We have a question,

00:23:17.880 by the way, Senator,

00:23:18.640 in our remaining couple of minutes

00:23:19.860 that is just as important

00:23:22.280 in my view.

00:23:22.980 I was going to bring this up

00:23:24.540 with you personally,

00:23:25.420 as a matter of fact,

00:23:26.340 because I was very worried

00:23:27.540 when this was mentioned

00:23:29.260 on the Senate floor.

00:23:30.260 This is from Gregory.

00:23:32.360 Is Senator Cruz

00:23:33.440 really a vegan?

00:23:35.800 Say it ain't so, Senator.

00:23:36.880 This is after your colleague,

00:23:38.620 Cory Booker,

00:23:39.340 came out

00:23:39.780 and made this wild accusation

00:23:41.380 on the Senate floor.

00:23:42.160 Please clear this up for us.

00:23:45.240 It was a hurtful

00:23:46.400 and scurrilous attack.

00:23:49.060 It was deeply personal.

00:23:51.820 And it was lies,

00:23:53.800 damn lies, 0.71

00:23:54.620 and statistics.

00:23:56.180 Great.

00:23:56.400 I am emphatically

00:23:57.780 a Cuban-Texan carnivore,

00:24:00.880 but I will concede

00:24:04.320 that all of the animals

00:24:06.140 that I eat

00:24:06.840 are vegetarians.

00:24:11.080 And, you know,

00:24:12.960 so Cory Booker said that

00:24:14.860 and it was a moment of levity

00:24:17.480 where I popped back at him.

00:24:20.220 What would surprise people

00:24:21.760 is Cory and I actually

00:24:22.800 get along quite well.

00:24:23.960 I like Cory personally.

00:24:27.120 We've actually gone out

00:24:28.420 to dinner,

00:24:28.940 although I let him

00:24:30.500 pick the place

00:24:31.260 and he went to

00:24:32.040 a vegetarian restaurant.

00:24:33.440 It was truly maddening.

00:24:34.460 I was like,

00:24:34.820 could they go kill some animal

00:24:36.180 and serve it for dinner, please?

00:24:38.120 I'll be right back.

00:24:40.440 But look,

00:24:41.140 I actually think

00:24:41.840 one of the reasons

00:24:42.900 Cory didn't do very well

00:24:45.220 in the Democratic

00:24:45.900 presidential primary

00:24:46.940 is because he's not a jerk.

00:24:49.880 Yeah.

00:24:50.360 And I think

00:24:51.100 they wanted someone

00:24:54.160 to be tough

00:24:54.960 and a jerk 0.90

00:24:55.600 in that primary.

00:24:56.440 And so Cory was kind of

00:24:57.360 faking it

00:24:58.460 and he wasn't very good

00:25:00.160 at faking it.

00:25:01.320 Yeah.

00:25:02.100 Yeah, I think that

00:25:02.980 that came across.

00:25:04.160 The I am Spartacus moment

00:25:05.740 is a good example

00:25:07.380 of

00:25:07.720 a less than authentic moment

00:25:11.640 than we have seen.

00:25:15.140 I agree.

00:25:16.160 And he usually

00:25:17.120 when he's being

00:25:17.700 his authentic self,

00:25:18.740 he usually plays

00:25:19.760 a little bit fairer,

00:25:20.840 a little bit nicer,

00:25:21.580 except for that awful lie.

00:25:23.080 I have to tell you,

00:25:23.720 Senator,

00:25:23.960 we have had many meals together

00:25:26.300 and I thought,

00:25:27.340 hold on,

00:25:27.680 if Senator Cruz is a vegan,

00:25:28.740 I think I've never seen him

00:25:30.480 eat anything other than red meat

00:25:32.380 at a meal,

00:25:33.220 at lunch, dinner.

00:25:33.920 So I'm glad

00:25:35.000 that you've cleared this up.

00:25:36.220 Nothing has changed

00:25:36.920 in the meantime.

00:25:38.160 So, and you know this

00:25:39.560 because you,

00:25:40.160 are you still

00:25:40.860 a California resident

00:25:42.040 or have you gone

00:25:42.800 to Tennessee yet?

00:25:43.820 Where are you physically

00:25:44.700 right now?

00:25:45.280 Just for a few more minutes,

00:25:47.080 in about 10 or 12 days,

00:25:48.800 but I'm in la la land for now.

00:25:50.980 Well, as you know,

00:25:52.580 Heidi is a vegetarian

00:25:54.340 and she's from California

00:25:56.520 and her entire family

00:25:57.460 are vegetarians.

00:25:58.280 I'm married into a family

00:25:59.600 of California vegetarians.

00:26:01.480 I remember one of the first times

00:26:02.700 I went on a family vacation

00:26:03.900 with my in-laws.

00:26:04.820 We were out on a houseboat

00:26:06.640 on Lake Powell,

00:26:08.040 which is spectacular.

00:26:09.800 And my father-in-law

00:26:10.940 was like grocery shopping.

00:26:12.600 He didn't know what to do

00:26:13.260 with his carnivore son-in-law.

00:26:15.540 So at the grocery store,

00:26:16.780 he bought a giant salami

00:26:18.980 and said,

00:26:19.440 here, Ted,

00:26:20.160 here's some meat

00:26:20.780 for the week.

00:26:21.860 And it was kind of like,

00:26:23.000 thanks, Peter.

00:26:27.040 That's, you know,

00:26:28.160 and I will say, Senator,

00:26:29.520 it shows how open-minded

00:26:30.780 you are.

00:26:31.740 You know,

00:26:32.280 you've,

00:26:32.780 you can have a conversation

00:26:34.720 with Cory Booker.

00:26:35.900 You can share a table

00:26:37.020 with vegetarians,

00:26:38.340 share a family

00:26:38.900 with vegetarians even.

00:26:39.980 Have I told you

00:26:40.860 my dental theory

00:26:41.760 of this, by the way?

00:26:43.220 I don't think so, no.

00:26:44.920 So I have a dental theory.

00:26:46.640 So my father-in-law

00:26:47.380 is a dentist.

00:26:48.120 So I,

00:26:49.000 but my theory is

00:26:49.840 if you look at

00:26:50.340 the animal kingdom,

00:26:51.720 every animal

00:26:52.960 that has incisors, 0.96

00:26:54.560 like we do,

00:26:55.660 they are fangs

00:26:56.520 and they rip

00:26:57.320 the flesh

00:26:57.880 of other animals.

00:27:00.080 The animals

00:27:01.060 that chew their cut

00:27:04.020 or chew grass,

00:27:05.460 they don't have incisors.

00:27:06.700 So my dental theory is

00:27:08.260 look,

00:27:09.080 we, we have,

00:27:09.780 we have fangs

00:27:10.520 for a reason

00:27:11.340 and that is

00:27:12.700 to plunge our teeth

00:27:13.740 into a ribeye.

00:27:15.180 And,

00:27:15.760 and my dentist

00:27:17.300 father-in-law

00:27:17.900 is not persuaded

00:27:18.560 by that argument.

00:27:19.720 Well, Senator,

00:27:20.060 I find it very persuasive.

00:27:21.520 We have those incisors 1.00

00:27:22.800 and fangs

00:27:23.560 for a reason

00:27:24.700 and that reason

00:27:25.560 might be

00:27:26.060 the testimony

00:27:27.480 of big tech executives

00:27:28.780 in front of the

00:27:29.360 Senate Judiciary Committee.

00:27:30.380 I,

00:27:30.540 I suppose

00:27:31.140 there are many uses

00:27:32.200 for this.

00:27:32.740 We will,

00:27:33.440 we will have to

00:27:34.020 leave it there though.

00:27:35.000 Look,

00:27:35.500 look forward to

00:27:36.240 to following

00:27:37.660 the update

00:27:38.440 on big tech

00:27:39.480 and a number

00:27:40.340 of other issues

00:27:41.020 that we will have

00:27:41.860 to save until next time.

00:27:43.000 Until then,

00:27:43.780 I'm Michael Knowles.

00:27:44.520 This is Verdict

00:27:45.200 with Ted Cruz.

00:27:46.120 This episode of Verdict

00:27:56.760 with Ted Cruz

00:27:57.680 is being brought to you

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Verdict with Ted Cruz - October 21, 2020

American Oligarchs

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