Verdict with Ted Cruz - In the Trenches for School Choice ft. Education Secretary Betsy DeVos

00:00:00.000 This is an iHeart Podcast.

00:00:02.500 Guaranteed human.

00:00:04.440 One week ago, the Senate voted on the most significant school choice legislation in our

00:00:10.040 nation's history.

00:00:11.340 And joining us to discuss it are the two authors of that legislation, Education Secretary Betsy

00:00:17.260 DeVos and the host of this show.

00:00:19.900 This is Verdict with Ted Cruz.

00:00:26.240 I think I should point out I was not one of the authors of that legislation.

00:00:29.800 That would be the actual host of the show, Senator Ted Cruz.

00:00:33.380 And Madam Secretary, thank you so much for being here.

00:00:35.580 It's a pleasure.

00:00:36.500 Well, it is great to have Betsy join us.

00:00:39.380 You know, Betsy and I have been friends now, I think, what, two decades?

00:00:43.060 At least, yes.

00:00:44.780 And I got to say, Betsy is extraordinary.

00:00:48.680 She was a nationally renowned business leader.

00:00:53.660 And she's been an education leader for a long, long time.

00:00:58.280 She has been fighting for school choice in the trenches, fighting to make a difference

00:01:07.280 for kids in the inner cities, kids that are struggling, to give them a chance.

00:01:12.840 Well, thanks, Ted.

00:01:13.780 It's a pleasure to join you and to have a chance to talk about my passion.

00:01:17.760 You know, I've noticed something about this issue.

00:01:20.240 It seems so clear cut.

00:01:21.440 There seem to be so many advantages to school choice.

00:01:24.100 Madam Secretary, you seem like a very nice, lovely person.

00:01:28.500 And yet, this issue, and you in particular, have elicited the ire of the opponents of school choice.

00:01:35.100 Why is this issue one that seems to drive these opponents crazy?

00:01:40.040 Well, there are a lot of defenders of what currently is the status quo.

00:01:44.760 A lot of adult interests at stake and a lot of power and financial resources at stake.

00:01:53.240 But what's at stake that's even more important than that is the future of kids in this country.

00:02:00.400 And for over three decades, I have been advocating for, especially kids from the most vulnerable backgrounds and families,

00:02:08.660 to have the same kind of opportunities that my children have had, my grandchildren.

00:02:14.340 And it is a justice issue, in my view, and one that is becoming increasingly in the sights of more and more parents

00:02:24.480 as we've tried to get kids back in school this fall.

00:02:28.900 Well, when I hear about the education issue, it's funny because we don't talk about it quite as much.

00:02:33.660 And yet, this issue that people kind of consider to the side is really the future of the country, right?

00:02:39.680 You're talking about how you raise up an entire generation of Americans.

00:02:43.100 Well, and I think that really has been driven home right now.

00:02:45.800 During the time of COVID, when you've got schools shut down all over the country,

00:02:50.540 what's happening as a practical matter right now is I think with an awful lot of kids, they're not getting an education.

00:02:56.080 Yeah, yeah.

00:02:56.920 And this was a problem, I suppose, even before the lockdowns shut down schools.

00:03:01.380 It's a broader problem, obviously exacerbated now.

00:03:03.920 So I'd like to just get into a little bit of what we mean when we talk about school choice

00:03:08.500 and specifically what is in this legislation that you've written.

00:03:12.020 Well, I like to use the picture of a backpack because most kids go to school with some kind of a backpack.

00:03:18.200 So let's picture that child with the financial resources that go to support that child's education,

00:03:24.820 which now go to a system or a building, but in that backpack for that child and their family to take to whatever school

00:03:33.380 or whatever learning environment is going to work for them, whether that's homeschooling or now with the pods that are forming or micro schools

00:03:41.940 or using it for a virtual school.

00:03:44.980 You know, for some kids, learning at a distance has worked well.

00:03:48.200 It's a small percentage of them probably, but for some that's the right thing for the future.

00:03:54.740 Well, all families should have those resources following their child or their children to the right environment for them.

00:04:03.600 And this includes a topic we've heard a lot about, charter schools.

00:04:07.200 And I have to tell you, not only are there these activists who are opposing it,

00:04:12.280 but it goes all the way up to the Democratic nominee for president, Joe Biden,

00:04:15.600 who came out and said that he not only opposes school choice, not only opposes charter schools,

00:04:20.720 but he explicitly, Madam Secretary, opposes you.

00:04:25.060 So I have one more question.

00:04:26.720 Sure.

00:04:27.540 There are lots of people who think there are other ways to solve all of these problems,

00:04:32.240 and NEA members have pushed back against what we think are very misguided school reforms,

00:04:38.840 like charter schools.

00:04:41.400 Regularly now, we've seen families and communities who will join us in fighting to save that neighborhood public school.

00:04:49.240 You know how we feel about charter schools.

00:04:52.320 We'd like to know how you feel about charter schools.

00:04:56.000 I will not, there will be no federal dollars.

00:04:58.840 I'm not Betsy DeVos, nor will my sector of education be anything like her in terms of our attitudes about public schools.

00:05:07.260 No privately funded charter school would receive, or private charter school would receive, a penny of federal money.

00:05:15.320 None.

00:05:16.240 It's really unfortunate that former Vice President Biden forgets the fact that in 1997,

00:05:23.060 he gave an impassioned speech in favor of school choice on the Senate floor.

00:05:27.160 And so he has turned against and turned his back on the kids that he supported and those families he supported then

00:05:35.340 in favor of the teachers union bosses and those special interests that are blocking kids from seeking the best education for them.

00:05:45.720 You know, that clip you just played, it highlights a couple of things.

00:05:49.460 One, Biden's being interviewed by the head of the biggest teachers union in the country.

00:05:57.320 But two, he tells her he's willing to do anything they want.

00:06:04.360 And in particular, he pledges to do everything he can to cut off the funds for charter schools.

00:06:09.480 Yeah.

00:06:09.720 It's interesting.

00:06:10.460 You see Biden slamming charter schools.

00:06:12.180 Charter schools actually are public schools.

00:06:13.920 I mean, part of what Biden says there is is incoherent as it sometimes is in that he says privately funded charter schools.

00:06:23.180 Charter schools are public schools that are publicly funded and they've had great records of success.

00:06:30.400 Some of the leading charter schools in the country like KIPP and Yes Prep started in Texas and have had incredible results.

00:06:38.760 People are seeing this now, obviously, acutely when it comes to the coronavirus lockdowns.

00:06:43.900 But you've been talking about this for a long time.

00:06:45.660 And I know, Madam Secretary, you have been working on this.

00:06:48.700 It seems like forever.

00:06:49.840 I mean, you have put a lot of your energy and your career into this.

00:06:54.540 Why?

00:06:55.160 What did you see?

00:06:56.240 How did you see this issue coming before so many others did?

00:06:59.880 Well, it started when my oldest son, who's now 38, was starting kindergarten.

00:07:04.140 And I began to volunteer at a small Christian school in the heart of our city.

00:07:09.040 And I saw for every family that had children there, there were 10 or 20 other families that wanted to have their kids there.

00:07:15.420 But they have to raise 90 percent of the operating funds from benefactors in the community.

00:07:21.040 And these families were so grateful to have kids in this little school.

00:07:25.400 And I began seeing it as the justice issue that it is and started advocating for policy change, thought that through persuasion or logic that we could help change people's minds, but soon recognized that the policy change has to go with political pressure.

00:07:45.800 And so that was the impetus and that was the progression for me to get involved.

00:07:52.520 And that involvement has taken shape in many states around the country that today have school choice programs for families and now to have this opportunity at the federal level to advance this notion.

00:08:05.460 And now at a time that we were just starting to talk about, you know, the fact that right now there are many parents who are in places that they chose to have their children, but the schools are not responding.

00:08:18.220 They're not answering what the family's needs are today.

00:08:22.860 And so I think the receptivity to school choice and the notion of school choice is increasing dramatically on a daily basis almost.

00:08:32.100 So I've worked very closely on school choice legislation with Betsy, and we'll talk about what the Senate just voted on.

00:08:39.740 But I've done numerous events with her at the Department of Education at the White House.

00:08:44.980 And some of the most powerful things that she's done is that she brings in actual students.

00:08:50.160 She brings in often high school kids that are typically African-American or Hispanic.

00:08:57.100 They're invariably low income, and they just tell their stories.

00:09:02.140 They tell their stories about really being in rough, challenging environments and what it meant for them when they got a scholarship, when they went to a charter school, when they were given a lifeline where otherwise they were going to drown.

00:09:19.940 And, you know, I have to say, like, Betsy and I both participated in a roundtable at the White House with the president on this and a number of these students.

00:09:29.000 And the press wouldn't cover the students.

00:09:31.720 Give me a 15-year-old black kid who is desperately saying, please give me an education. 0.90

00:09:38.440 Thank you, Secretary DeVos, for fighting for my education.

00:09:41.200 And the 6 o'clock news will not air it.

00:09:44.340 I mean, it is like the oxygen sucked out of the room.

00:09:48.980 They don't want you to hear these stories.

00:09:51.160 You're absolutely right, Ted.

00:09:53.020 All you need to do is listen to the stories of a couple of these kids who've had the opportunity.

00:09:58.160 I think about Denisha Merriweather, whom I've known now for quite a few years.

00:10:03.660 She grew up in the Jacksonville, Florida area.

00:10:06.100 She failed third grade twice and was on the verge of getting kicked out of school.

00:10:12.940 And her godmother said, we got to do something different here.

00:10:17.240 So she found a Florida School Choice Scholarship, got her into a different school.

00:10:23.720 And Denisha will tell you today, within 10 days of being in that school, she said her life was on an entirely different trajectory.

00:10:31.480 She graduated high school, the first in her family to graduate high school.

00:10:36.160 She went on, graduated college, and now has earned a master's degree.

00:10:40.500 And it is now actually promoting this opportunity for kids everywhere.

00:10:46.040 But you think about the life change that happened because she had that opportunity through that scholarship.

00:10:54.400 In the third grade, too.

00:10:55.440 In the third grade.

00:10:56.300 You know, it's not in college or something.

00:10:57.560 In the third grade.

00:10:57.960 So early.

00:10:58.460 Yeah, and she just, you know, she's one of hundreds of thousands of kids who've had, you know, scholarships funded by private benefactors in places where they don't have school choice.

00:11:11.260 But I think about, you talked about the charter schools and the demand for charters.

00:11:17.060 There are over a million families on wait lists for charter schools around the country.

00:11:21.680 And yet, we have the teachers union combating even charter schools, publicly funded public schools, simply because they're organized differently.

00:11:34.320 As you say, Senator, we talk about this term social justice, we throw it around you.

00:11:38.900 You do wonder about regular old justice, you know, the old term of giving people what they deserve and treating people fairly.

00:11:45.280 And this is at the heart of this issue.

00:11:48.540 And, Madam Secretary, I would like to turn from school choice and lower education up to higher education because I know you have focused on a justice issue there as well.

00:11:58.420 And that's the issue of Title IX.

00:12:00.740 And for those, it's a little bit of a complex issue.

00:12:03.160 But it seems to me from the outside that there are campus tribunals that have been trying students for crimes outside of the criminal justice system with no respect, basically, for due process.

00:12:16.400 And very few people had taken it up until you took over your job.

00:12:20.040 Well, I remember when Title IX went into, the law went into effect.

00:12:26.360 And, of course, it was originally to ensure that young women had equal access to sporting opportunities.

00:12:33.400 And so when I came into this job and realized very quickly what a serious overreach the Obama administration had made into this issue by issuing their Dear Colleague letter, which essentially told campuses and institutions how to handle matters of sexual misconduct on campus,

00:12:54.180 but dramatically restricted and took away what we would consider fundamental rights, due process rights, and the presumption of innocence.

00:13:04.260 And in the process, countless students were getting hurt on both sides of the issue.

00:13:10.140 So we went, as you know, we went through the formal process, the formal rulemaking process to put clarity to this and to restore balance and fairness and to give all students the comfort and the knowledge that if they are ever in such a situation, they have a process to rely on that is going to be just and fair for everyone.

00:13:35.160 So let me, one thing you mentioned that I want to pause and reflect on, you know, all of us were taught growing up that the way something becomes a law is it passes the House, it passes the Senate, it's signed by the President, and then you have legislation.

00:13:48.780 But what you just mentioned there is that that was not, in fact, what the Obama administration did.

00:13:53.320 They did a Dear Colleague letter.

00:13:56.700 What do you mean by that?

00:13:57.620 Like, how did they do this?

00:13:59.180 So they issued a letter to education institutions saying, this is how you must handle these matters on your campuses, and completely circumvented the proper process as established by Congress, and basically did as they did in many other areas, which was simply decree their political agenda by, you know, writing a Dear Colleague letter and signing it.

00:14:25.680 And so I, you know, rescinded it very soon after taking office and began the process of going through the whole Administrative Procedures Act, which now has, it carries the force of law.

00:14:40.700 But importantly, it puts a framework around these issues that is fair and reliable for everyone involved.

00:14:49.960 So, in the hyper-partisan world we live in, the Twitter world has characterized the Department of Education rules as essentially condoning sexual assault, saying that we're not going to punish sexual assault on college campuses.

00:15:05.260 Now, that's not the case.

00:15:07.360 Not at all. Not at all.

00:15:08.960 What it does is actually give survivors complete control over what happens.

00:15:14.820 And it ensures that schools, if they report some incident or misconduct, that schools have to immediately provide supportive measures, whether that be changing dorm rooms or class schedules or issuing a no-contact order.

00:15:31.680 And then that individual, that complainant is the one who's in charge of what happens next, whether they want to file a formal complaint or not, whether they want to proceed with other additional formal action or not.

00:15:46.480 But the process is very clearly articulated, putting that individual in charge of what happens and ensuring that they can continue to, according to Title IX, that they can continue to access their education in an equal manner.

00:16:03.080 Well, and in the American justice system, due process is a regular feature.

00:16:09.660 It's a constitutionally mandated feature of criminal trials so that if Michael goes out and kills someone on the street, which, by the way, he does often, just be aware of that.

00:16:20.920 We're on air. You can't say this.

00:16:22.220 Even if he's a murderer, if he gets arrested and prosecuted, he's entitled to due process, which means he'll have a lawyer appointed.

00:16:32.820 He'll be able to cross-examine witnesses.

00:16:35.660 So if you and I walk upstairs and see him commit the crime and we go on the stand and say it was him, that was that Knowles guy.

00:16:42.700 I tell you, I saw him. It was that same light blue suit.

00:16:46.320 That guy was rooting for the Lakers, I think.

00:16:47.900 But he has the right to cross-examine the witnesses.

00:16:52.340 He has the right to see the evidence against him and to contest the charges.

00:16:56.560 All of that's true if you're charged with murder.

00:16:59.700 But yet, because of the Obama administration, for a 18, 19-year-old kid facing an allegation on campus, in a lot of instances, they weren't given the basic due process any other American would be given.

00:17:14.860 Yeah. And hundreds of cases that were ultimately overturned in the courts because they didn't handle it appropriately and they didn't afford due process to the individual.

00:17:23.960 Because I see the question you're raising, Senator, which is, you know, this issue has been so demagogued.

00:17:30.040 But I think it just comes back to that point you raised, which I think we should keep coming back to.

00:17:34.220 It's a matter of justice.

00:17:36.180 These professor and administrative tribunals obviously are ill-equipped to deal with a crime. 0.87

00:17:41.800 The survivors and the accusers are entitled to their legal protections, which are now being thrown out the window.

00:17:47.640 And, of course, the accused are entitled to due process in our system, that being thrown out of the window too.

00:17:52.320 And, by the way, Michael, you want to talk about rampant hypocrisy.

00:17:57.300 Joe Biden has been accused of sexual assault. 0.96

00:18:00.580 Right.

00:18:01.260 If Joe Biden were operating under the Obama-Biden campus rules, he'd have been expelled.

00:18:07.820 That's right.

00:18:08.080 Thrown out of the, I guess, thrown out of the presidential race.

00:18:10.120 Is that the equivalent?

00:18:11.080 I don't know. Can you run when you're a judge?

00:18:12.300 Now, he disputes the claim.

00:18:14.060 Yeah.

00:18:14.260 He disputes the claims, but there is an allegation, a serious allegation of an alleged victim who's come forward and charged him with forcible sexual assault.

00:18:24.220 Yeah.

00:18:24.900 I don't know if he did it or not.

00:18:26.400 And I actually believe, look, I think there are aspects of the Me Too movement that are very positive.

00:18:31.240 And confronting and punishing sexual assault and sexual violence is very important, but it doesn't mean every allegation is true.

00:18:40.760 And people are entitled to defend themselves.

00:18:44.200 But the hypocrisy is Biden wouldn't survive his own standard.

00:18:48.660 That's right.

00:18:49.100 You have to assume if Joe Biden wins, that he promised he won't have an education secretary like Betsy DeVos.

00:18:57.100 I fully expect them to try to reverse the rules protecting due process that the Department of Education has put in and to try to return to the star chamber if there's an accusation the student's life is destroyed regardless of the evidence.

00:19:12.620 Yeah.

00:19:12.740 So, not to mention school choice, and as we've talked about this podcast, as you know, I've got a new book coming out October 6th called One Vote Away about the Supreme Court.

00:19:24.400 There's an entire chapter in the book on school choice, and I talk about there's a landmark case at the Supreme Court called Zelman v. Simmons-Harris where it was a challenge to the Ohio school choice program, and the court upheld it 5-4.

00:19:39.000 We are one vote away.

00:19:41.840 One radical leftist that Joe Biden would happily appoint would vote to strike down every school choice program in America.

00:19:49.080 I mean, it is – that's something – you don't talk about something in the election that people don't realize is on the ballot.

00:19:55.920 It's part of the reason I wrote this book to focus on all of the different constitutional rights that are hanging in the balance.

00:20:01.300 The Senate just voted on a targeted emergency relief package directed at COVID and the economic disaster.

00:20:10.660 On the education side, it took a long time for the Republicans to unite.

00:20:15.580 And in particular, I held out my vote, and I said, I'm not going to support it unless you include school choice provisions and the school choice provisions that I authored and introduced with Betsy at the Department of Education.

00:20:32.600 And what the provision is, it is $5 billion a year in federal tax credits for individuals or companies that make contributions to scholarship-granting organizations.

00:20:46.060 And it's dollar-for-dollar tax credits so that if you write a check to a scholarship-granting organization in your home state, you get a credit on your taxes.

00:20:53.980 What that means is that's $5 billion of new funds that go to scholarships for K-12 education that the state's implements, the state's design, so they can vary depending on the needs in each state.

00:21:06.680 But you look at all the kids right now who are trapped at home, whose schools aren't meeting, they aren't teaching, they aren't learning.

00:21:13.660 That's an immediate infusion of $5 billion a year of scholarship for those kids to get.

00:21:20.120 And by the way, it also includes kids with disabilities that need special treatment, special therapies.

00:21:25.040 A lot of kids with disabilities are getting completely left behind right now.

00:21:29.520 It was the most far-reaching school choice provision ever voted on.

00:21:35.060 Much of the Senate Republican Conference fought me.

00:21:37.720 Betsy and I were talking repeatedly on the phone over and over again throughout this.

00:21:42.500 Senator Mike Lee joined me.

00:21:44.120 And so Mike and I both, we told the conference, said it's real simple.

00:21:47.180 If you include the school choice provisions, we'll vote yes.

00:21:51.100 If you don't include them, we'll vote no.

00:21:53.580 And so they couldn't get to 50 without us.

00:21:55.440 And it was, I mean, you want to talk about a battle.

00:21:58.160 And we had some conference calls where my colleagues in the Republican Conference were yelling at me, were screaming, were opposed, were saying they're absolutely not going to do it.

00:22:07.140 But we made very clear, we talked in another podcast about Israel and the importance of lack of ambiguity.

00:22:15.560 We made very clear, if you want our votes, include the bill.

00:22:18.640 The end of the day, Republican leadership included the bill.

00:22:21.880 And we united the Republican Conference.

00:22:24.380 We got 52 out of 53 Republicans.

00:22:27.080 The only Republican who voted no was Rand Paul, and he was against all of it.

00:22:30.080 He just voted against the whole thing.

00:22:31.180 Other than Rand, we got every single Republican united and voting in favor of the most far-reaching school choice provision ever.

00:22:39.380 That is a big, big deal.

00:22:42.340 And it's a major victory.

00:22:43.660 And Bets and I worked hand in hand to make that happen.

00:22:45.940 Yes.

00:22:46.240 And Ted, kudos to you and to Mike for a really standing firm on that.

00:22:52.540 And I think, actually, if you were to query most of your colleagues, they would say they realize more today why that is important.

00:23:02.440 And I expect that going forward, there's going to be much broader support because they're seeing today the families that need it and want it, and they can't deny it any longer.

00:23:14.000 And before I let you go, I know we only have a couple minutes left, but I would be remiss if I didn't ask.

00:23:18.980 I know there are a lot of families that are wondering right now when the schools are going to reopen.

00:23:22.780 On the point of clarity, we know that a lot of teacher unions have been opposed to the reopening.

00:23:29.080 So what is that battle looking like, and what is that timeline looking like?

00:23:33.100 Well, every district makes that decision themselves in concert, perhaps, with their state leadership.

00:23:39.180 But the president and I have been very, very explicit about the fact that families need to have the option of kids going to school in person.

00:23:48.860 The ones who are being hurt the most are the ones who need to be there in person the most.

00:23:53.840 And so we will continue to beat that drum.

00:23:56.240 And I urge and encourage parents across the country to raise their voices.

00:24:01.900 They're being denied hearing in all too many places.

00:24:05.280 I think right here of Fairfax County, right outside of Washington, where they were going to offer two days a week in person.

00:24:13.520 Now it's zero days a week in person.

00:24:16.220 And I understand on the first day the whole system crashed.

00:24:20.060 Well, those aren't choices.

00:24:21.380 That's not supporting your constituency at all.

00:24:24.220 And there's no excuse for it.

00:24:27.220 Right.

00:24:27.480 Well, it sounds like you've got your work cut out for you.

00:24:30.340 But thank you, Madam Secretary, for all that you do.

00:24:32.600 Thank you for explaining this issue, both of you.

00:24:35.580 And by the way, congratulations on this vote in the Senate.

00:24:38.880 We hope, of course, to see much more of it.

00:24:40.840 Madam Secretary, Senator, I'm Michael Knowles.

00:24:43.440 This is Verdict with Ted Cruz.

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Verdict with Ted Cruz - September 24, 2020

In the Trenches for School Choice ft. Education Secretary Betsy DeVos

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