Verdict with Ted Cruz - Is a Hotdog a Sandwich？ ft. Senator Mike Lee

00:00:00.000 This is an iHeart Podcast.

00:00:02.660 Guaranteed human.

00:00:04.640 As our country continues to roil from all the turmoil,

00:00:08.140 we are joined today by people who can explain everything

00:00:10.460 from the basic questions, the U.S. Constitution,

00:00:13.260 all the way up to the policies that are being crafted

00:00:15.720 right this very minute.

00:00:17.140 And because they don't invite me to their lunch

00:00:19.080 where they actually talk about these things,

00:00:20.900 we'll bring them here into the podcast studio

00:00:22.680 and get into all of it.

00:00:23.800 This is Verdict with Ted Cruz.

00:00:30.920 Welcome back to Verdict with Ted Cruz.

00:00:33.200 I'm Michael Knowles, not just joined by our usual senator,

00:00:37.120 but by a second senator as well, Senator Mike Lee.

00:00:40.380 Gentlemen, I am not going to tell you

00:00:42.100 how deeply offended I am that I was not invited

00:00:44.560 to your Senate lunch, but because we're all here together,

00:00:47.400 perhaps you can fill me in on what's been happening.

00:00:50.340 First of all, we'd love to have you at our lunch.

00:00:52.040 Just get elected to the Senate.

00:00:53.240 We'll welcome you with open arms.

00:00:54.220 Just that small issue first.

00:00:56.100 Okay, all right.

00:00:57.100 You'd fit in well.

00:00:57.700 And you're Californian.

00:00:59.100 And I'm sure Dianne Feinstein is looking over her shoulder

00:01:01.980 and sees you approaching rapidly.

00:01:04.180 I appreciate the support, Senator,

00:01:06.360 and I'm sure it's just a matter of a few days.

00:01:09.280 Californians have been looking and searching

00:01:11.320 for years for a constitutional conservative.

00:01:14.140 You fit the bill.

00:01:15.060 So I understand this was a pretty rowdy, interesting lunch.

00:01:20.280 Take us behind the scenes.

00:01:21.340 What happened?

00:01:22.180 We talked about a number of things,

00:01:23.820 including the need to allow each senator to introduce amendments

00:01:29.000 and have those amendments voted on.

00:01:31.080 Okay.

00:01:31.540 You know, when we bring up a piece of legislation,

00:01:34.120 it's never supposed to be the case that you bring a piece of legislation

00:01:37.140 to the Senate floor, and then that is the beginning and the end.

00:01:40.660 That then would represent a simple binary choice.

00:01:43.700 All in or all out.

00:01:45.860 All good or all bad.

00:01:47.620 The way the Senate was formed is such that every member

00:01:51.800 is supposed to have access to unlimited debate

00:01:54.080 and unlimited opportunities to introduce amendments.

00:01:57.020 And it hasn't been working like that lately.

00:01:59.680 There are a lot of reasons for that, modern historical reasons.

00:02:03.060 But the fact is there's now a widespread developing bipartisan concern

00:02:08.700 that we're effectively nullifying the votes of most Americans

00:02:13.600 who elected their senators.

00:02:14.840 Right.

00:02:15.780 Right.

00:02:16.860 Look, Washington's broken.

00:02:19.080 We know Washington's broken.

00:02:20.440 One of the ways it's broken is the Senate doesn't operate.

00:02:22.940 So we had at lunch today, whenever the Senate's in session,

00:02:26.580 all the Republican senators have lunch together.

00:02:28.640 So we have lunch together on Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, all together.

00:02:31.400 And these can be pretty raucous gatherings.

00:02:34.080 I mean, we get some vigorous, sometimes angry arguments.

00:02:37.880 Today, we had a big debate over amendments, the basic right.

00:02:41.320 As Mike said, the most fundamental, as a senator, historically,

00:02:45.240 for two centuries, you've had two powers.

00:02:47.620 Unlimited debate.

00:02:48.380 You can talk as long as you want.

00:02:50.400 And unlimited amendment.

00:02:52.900 You can offer any amendment you want.

00:02:54.680 Okay.

00:02:55.160 The second one has been obliterated.

00:02:56.720 As a practical matter, Harry Reid, the Democratic leader,

00:03:01.400 eliminated amendments.

00:03:02.640 And then Mitch McConnell, the Republican leader, eliminated amendments.

00:03:05.920 And what we have now instead is basically the leaders draft the bills in their office

00:03:11.280 and they drop them fully complete on everyone.

00:03:14.880 Everyone has to vote yes or no or shut everything down.

00:03:17.500 And it's wholly corrupt.

00:03:20.760 And so at lunch today, both Mike and I argued vigorously.

00:03:23.500 Look, what we said to the other senators is right now we have two senators and 98 people

00:03:29.680 who stand around and waiting to see what those two senators are going to do.

00:03:32.160 And that's messed up.

00:03:33.040 And I think we ought to go back to unlimited amendments.

00:03:36.400 That's how the Senate used to operate. 0.54

00:03:37.760 You could literally pull out a piece of paper and write an amendment, hand it in.

00:03:40.460 And the argument they give against it is they say, well, someone may have to vote on a difficult

00:03:46.760 amendment.

00:03:47.720 Oh, my goodness.

00:03:48.540 How terrifying.

00:03:49.400 Not a senator.

00:03:50.620 And so they raise it as, well, the Democrats will put some, you know, maybe the Democrats

00:03:55.240 will put funding of the National Department of Kitten Rescue.

00:03:59.180 And if you vote no, apparently you want kittens to die. 0.66

00:04:01.860 You hate kittens. 0.97

00:04:02.620 Yeah.

00:04:02.980 Well, guys, you know, man up.

00:04:05.020 Yeah.

00:04:05.540 Put on your big boy pants and decide how you want to vote.

00:04:08.440 It's not the end of the world.

00:04:10.140 If you decide I can't stand the little furry critters, then defend that to your constituents.

00:04:16.440 And if you decide I love me some kittens, OK, fine.

00:04:19.240 Defend that to your constituents.

00:04:20.500 That's part of what's so hard about this is that it puts you in a terrible position.

00:04:24.260 You don't get to amend it.

00:04:25.800 Then you have to take it or leave it in its entirety.

00:04:28.200 It's a simple binary choice.

00:04:29.640 I love this bill.

00:04:30.540 Love everything about it.

00:04:31.360 Or I hate this bill.

00:04:32.340 Hate everything about it.

00:04:33.340 That's not right.

00:04:33.920 That's not how the Senate was created.

00:04:35.840 And what we've been doing is not only contrary to the Senate rules and history and tradition,

00:04:40.220 it's also contrary to common sense.

00:04:42.280 By the way, for the record and the fact check clarifiers, I love kittens.

00:04:46.540 You are not going to vote.

00:04:48.360 OK, well, it's good.

00:04:49.100 I'm glad.

00:04:49.840 Yesterday, I texted my daughter Caroline a cute little picture of a kitten just because.

00:04:55.340 I am relieved to hear that.

00:04:56.420 You know, this is a very interesting point because I think when people think about what the Senate does,

00:05:00.140 people always think about the issues.

00:05:01.840 OK, it's this issue and you're for it or you're against it.

00:05:04.440 But what you're talking about is a matter of process.

00:05:07.800 And the process here is in many ways just as important, maybe more important than the issues themselves.

00:05:13.360 Because the Senate is supposed to be the greatest deliberative body in the world.

00:05:17.440 And yet there's very little deliberating going on.

00:05:19.760 Yeah, that's exactly right.

00:05:22.920 The process precedes and is antecedent to the policy.

00:05:27.540 It's very difficult to get to good policy.

00:05:29.900 It's also very difficult to get to accountable government in a constitutional republic like ours.

00:05:36.220 Unless you have individual members, once they are elected, being able to make an informed decision about legislation

00:05:43.000 and being able to improve it as they see errors.

00:05:45.460 So, and you know, the word Mike just used there, accountability, it matters a lot.

00:05:50.040 Where do you want a bill drafted?

00:05:51.660 Do you want it in a smoke-filled room hidden in Washington where the lobbyists make every corrupt deal on earth?

00:05:57.540 Right.

00:05:58.180 Or do you want it in the open?

00:05:59.080 Do you want it in the floor of the Senate where if you've got a provision you support,

00:06:02.780 stand up, defend it, and actually face argument on the other side?

00:06:06.220 Right.

00:06:06.400 That having an open amendment process is how you actually have accountability where the people can see

00:06:12.780 what are the decisions being made by our elected officials.

00:06:16.540 This is one thing you've really shown me and I think you've shown to the audience on this show

00:06:20.240 is just how much the personal relationships here matter.

00:06:24.700 You know, Senator so-and-so makes this speech and you heard something on the floor

00:06:28.260 and then you responded in a certain way or maybe over lunch you had these arguments.

00:06:31.940 So, I have to ask you something that I typically only ask when I'm on a double date.

00:06:37.080 You know, I'm speaking to a married couple.

00:06:39.620 How'd you meet?

00:06:40.900 How'd you meet?

00:06:42.260 You know, I felt like I had known Ted Cruz for a long time before I ever actually met him.

00:06:46.640 We had a number of common acquaintances.

00:06:48.520 We both clerked at the Supreme Court, not at the same time.

00:06:51.040 In fact, I saw Ted Cruz argue in the Supreme Court several times long before I had ever met him.

00:06:57.600 Well, wow.

00:06:57.980 He's very good at it, by the way.

00:06:59.860 Shortly after I got elected to the Senate in 2010, we were both in town in Washington

00:07:05.880 for the Federalist Society Symposium.

00:07:08.160 I was also here for some Senate orientation meetings.

00:07:11.440 I got a call from Ted Cruz saying, hey, I'm Ted Cruz.

00:07:14.500 I'd like to meet you.

00:07:15.460 I thought, this is great.

00:07:17.960 This is a guy who has a lot of common friends.

00:07:20.300 I need to finally meet him.

00:07:21.340 So he came by, we went down to my office that was then in the basement of the Russell Building.

00:07:30.780 And he confided in me that he was thinking about running for the United States Senate from Texas in 2012.

00:07:36.580 And I said, okay, in that case, we need to talk.

00:07:40.980 So we went on a walk around the Capitol grounds, talked about every conceivable legal, political, and constitutional issue for the next two hours.

00:07:48.640 And at the end of it, I said, look, it's highly unlikely that I will ever in this lifetime meet somebody who is this close to being my ideological twin.

00:07:58.160 If you run for any federal office, I will endorse you.

00:08:01.540 That's, you know, actually, you bring up this point that I was thinking about with both of you.

00:08:05.480 You both came to real national prominence in the days, those wonderful old days of the Tea Party movement, when there was so much energy behind the conservative cause, and specifically a pro-liberty, pro-constitutional cause.

00:08:19.880 Where does that stand now?

00:08:21.600 Because, you know, as you talk about discussing all these court cases and all these sorts of things, I don't think every one of our politicians necessarily does that.

00:08:30.340 So where are we?

00:08:32.040 Where does the cause of liberty stand today?

00:08:34.260 Well, let me say this.

00:08:37.000 By ordinary measures, by historical measures, neither Mike nor I have any business being in the U.S. Senate.

00:08:43.540 It is bizarre that we're there on a whole lot of fronts.

00:08:48.140 For both Mike and me, the first office either one of us was ever elected to was U.S. Senate.

00:08:54.820 That's pretty good.

00:08:55.940 That's weird.

00:08:57.800 Mike, when he was elected, so Mike was elected to the Senate two years before I was.

00:09:00.700 Mike Lee was the first U.S. Supreme Court clerk in the history of the United States of America to be elected to the Senate.

00:09:07.980 He actually was elected simultaneously with the other first clerk, which is Richard Blumenthal, who had clerked for Brennan on the Supreme Court.

00:09:14.900 So the two of them together became the very first clerks ever.

00:09:19.040 Now, you think.

00:09:19.620 We don't clerk enough Brennan clerk.

00:09:20.940 We have to balance out the show.

00:09:21.840 Now, think about it for a second.

00:09:24.520 That's weird, actually, that it took until 2010 for a Supreme Court clerk to get elected.

00:09:29.360 That is, yeah.

00:09:30.580 Part of the reason is most Supreme Court clerks are geeky, academic.

00:09:39.180 They're not the robust, strapping examples of manhood.

00:09:42.920 A couple of Cary Grants over here, right?

00:09:45.280 Movie star quality.

00:09:46.140 That's right.

00:09:46.620 So, look, Mike and I are both law nerds.

00:09:50.440 We met at FedSoc.

00:09:52.080 FedSoc is law nerd prom.

00:09:54.480 The Federalist Society.

00:09:55.540 Yes.

00:09:55.880 It is everyone together.

00:09:58.100 And so we met.

00:09:59.900 Mike had just been elected to the Senate.

00:10:01.340 I was planning to announce my Senate campaign a couple months later.

00:10:05.780 And so I remember I went to his basement office.

00:10:10.160 He was still in, like, when you're newly elected to the Senate, they stick you in this tiny little basement office for a few months.

00:10:14.300 It's kind of hazing, basically.

00:10:15.400 Right.

00:10:15.580 But I remember walking with him.

00:10:18.040 You were filing your form requesting what committees to be on.

00:10:21.340 And so I walked with Mike while he, you know, why he's on Judiciary Committee, because he filed that form saying I want to be on Judiciary Committee.

00:10:28.200 And we talked about all sorts of legal issues.

00:10:31.340 I remember the issue, though, at the time there had been, I think it was a GAO report that had come out just recently that said the total value of all federal land was $14 trillion.

00:10:42.920 Now, at the time, the national debt was also $14 trillion.

00:10:48.380 It says something that that was $8 trillion ago.

00:10:52.000 Right.

00:10:52.580 The good old days.

00:10:53.560 But those numbers, and that was coincidental, but that suggested to both of us a natural and really elegant solution. 1.00

00:11:01.820 Sell the damn land. 0.99

00:11:03.000 Pay off the debt. 1.00

00:11:04.660 And by the way, keep the parks.

00:11:05.840 That's fine.

00:11:06.280 The parks are a very small percentage.

00:11:07.320 But sell all the rest of it.

00:11:08.560 Yeah.

00:11:08.680 Now, that connection, I think, was important.

00:11:13.680 And you're right.

00:11:14.060 It was the time of the Tea Party.

00:11:15.240 We were focused on rein in spending, rein in debt, defend liberty, believe in civil liberties.

00:11:21.700 By the way, that look, both Mike and I are passionate about the Bill of Rights and protecting civil liberties.

00:11:27.660 But both Mike and I also ran underdog campaigns.

00:11:31.680 And so one of the things I think would be helpful to actually before even talking about how you got elected to the Senate.

00:11:39.500 It's worth folks understanding where Mike comes from.

00:11:43.720 So Mike's dad was Rex Lee.

00:11:46.840 He was the U.S. Solicitor General under Ronald Reagan's legendary Supreme Court advocate, one of the finest Supreme Court advocates to have ever lived.

00:11:54.700 What was it like growing up in Rex Lee's house?

00:12:01.320 What was the dinner table like?

00:12:03.400 My dad was a fantastic person.

00:12:06.800 The American Bar Association Journal did a piece on him while he was Solicitor General and described him as Huck Finn in a morning suit because he was folksy.

00:12:15.580 He was relatable.

00:12:16.720 He was quirky.

00:12:18.520 You know, he didn't act like somebody who thought a lot of himself.

00:12:21.380 At the same time, he focused a lot on and loved the law and loved the Constitution.

00:12:28.000 I think I was 30 before I realized that not every family discusses the presentment clause around the dinner table.

00:12:33.600 Just most families.

00:12:34.700 Just most families.

00:12:35.500 Some do not.

00:12:35.840 Just normal families.

00:12:38.000 You know, we talked about these things.

00:12:40.580 I remember when my dad first explained Roe v. Wade to me.

00:12:43.900 And I was about 9 or 10 years old, and I asked him the question, okay, so separate and apart from what gives them authority as federal judges to make this determination, why is this a federal issue rather than a state issue?

00:13:00.560 And I thought my dad was going to tear up right then.

00:13:03.940 My boy.

00:13:05.020 My boy.

00:13:05.620 Yes, yes.

00:13:07.120 Got one child who listens out of seven.

00:13:10.220 Wow, that's, I mean, that's a tremendous formation.

00:13:13.000 And then you go and you clerk at the Supreme Court.

00:13:15.920 And you do need to, before the clerking, I want to take an even greater digression and understand that as honorable as the lineage is, that there also is some murky, so in your ancestry is the story of murder.

00:13:29.600 Yeah, look, I could write volumes on this one.

00:13:35.340 My great-great-grandfather was a guy named John D. Lee.

00:13:37.940 Okay.

00:13:38.340 John D. Lee was a Mormon pioneer, one of the early settlers of Utah.

00:13:44.360 He was executed on federal murder charges.

00:13:48.560 Really?

00:13:49.520 You thought I was kidding.

00:13:50.700 Wow.

00:13:51.100 A crime he didn't commit.

00:13:52.500 He was acting under military orders, and he didn't actually kill anyone.

00:13:55.080 He was blamed for the sins of a couple of other people, Isaac Haight and Philip Klingensmith.

00:14:02.020 Of course, Senator Lee, defending his family here.

00:14:04.900 Okay.

00:14:05.360 All right.

00:14:05.960 And then his grandson, my grandfather, was himself the victim of murder.

00:14:13.160 He was murdered just a couple months before my dad was born.

00:14:16.180 And his murderer was tried for murder for reasons we've never been able to understand after the trial went on for several weeks.

00:14:25.920 Just before the case went to the jury, the prosecutor got weak-kneed.

00:14:30.820 The prosecutor decided to allow the defendant to plead out to a lesser-included crime of manslaughter.

00:14:37.120 Okay.

00:14:37.300 Then the judge let him out on time served in pretrial custody.

00:14:43.380 But my dad was 18 before he had any idea his father was murdered.

00:14:48.000 His mother remarried.

00:14:49.320 And my dad grew up just being told that his father died in a hunting accident.

00:14:54.060 Wow.

00:14:54.460 You know, on the point, not the victim of the murder, but on the murderer question, I will admit on this show, since we're just among friends,

00:15:02.780 I, too, have a murderer in my family line.

00:15:06.020 And I just found this out.

00:15:07.160 One of my ancestors who was on the Mayflower, John Billington, was the first man in the New World to be executed for being a murderer.

00:15:14.640 So, really, I, too, descend from a certain degenerate hundreds of years ago.

00:15:19.160 Oh, he did it.

00:15:19.980 This guy was notorious.

00:15:21.640 He totally did it.

00:15:22.700 Well, but in Texas, Ted tells me that it's a defense to murder if the victim needed killing.

00:15:27.740 That is absolutely true.

00:15:30.520 So, I'm not aware of any murderers in my ancestry.

00:15:34.320 Good.

00:15:34.480 But I may have you beat on one thing, which is I have had boots made by a murderer.

00:15:39.680 Hmm.

00:15:40.260 So, when I was Texas SG, in Huntsville, in the prison, a lot of the state officials would get boots made.

00:15:47.840 Yeah.

00:15:48.000 By a guy who was in Huntsville, and his name was Darby.

00:15:52.580 And he was there for double homicide.

00:15:54.340 Yeah.

00:15:54.800 And he was a leathersmith.

00:15:56.120 He was very, very, very skilled.

00:15:58.620 And so, I went to get fitted.

00:16:00.800 And, you know, it was measured to your foot.

00:16:03.080 So, you stand, and it's kind of, Darby was, I don't know, probably early 60s, skinny little guy, but who had committed two murders.

00:16:10.380 And it's interesting when you have a double murderer who tells you, okay, stand still.

00:16:13.820 You actually just stand still.

00:16:15.140 You're like, all right, I'm not going to screw with you.

00:16:17.080 You can measure.

00:16:18.100 So, I had the boots being made, designed, had the seal of Texas on.

00:16:23.100 I was really psyched.

00:16:24.960 And then, like a month or two later, I got a call from the prison.

00:16:28.300 And the warden said, well, Ted, I got some bad news.

00:16:32.340 You're not going to get your boots.

00:16:34.620 They said, yeah, we're not letting Darby handle sharp instruments to him.

00:16:39.180 I guess that's common sense.

00:16:40.720 That really should.

00:16:41.460 So, I don't know what happened, but Darby got out of the boot making business, and I never got the boots that I had planned to buy from the prison.

00:16:48.320 I never got them.

00:16:48.860 You know, I...

00:16:49.780 They couldn't have made that discovery before you're fitting.

00:16:52.580 He must have liked you, though.

00:16:53.720 He had the opportunity.

00:16:54.780 You were vulnerable.

00:16:55.940 I guess.

00:16:56.720 That's true.

00:16:57.300 You made it out.

00:16:58.040 I'm glad not to have been shanked on my trip to the prison.

00:17:02.340 You know, I would like to take this question from the literal killing to a more metaphorical killing for a moment, because I'm not a lawyer.

00:17:10.500 I am no expert on the Constitution.

00:17:12.480 I don't know anything about these things.

00:17:13.960 Both of you gentlemen do.

00:17:15.500 And so, I want to know.

00:17:16.580 You talk about discussing Roe versus Wade around the table.

00:17:18.480 It seems to me we have gone a very far way from the original understanding of our constitutional republic to where we are now.

00:17:26.500 Since you guys know the case history here, what do you trace that back to?

00:17:31.480 What are the moments that really just launched the country in a new direction?

00:17:36.500 Senator Lee?

00:17:36.920 There's one day that, for me, stands in infamy in American history.

00:17:43.380 Now, look, there are a lot of infamous days in American history, but there's one that I think, relative to its importance, doesn't get the coverage it deserves.

00:17:51.160 Yeah.

00:17:51.280 So, April 12th, 1937, two days, two years to the day after the Supreme Court had moved into its gigantic marble palace that it's occupied since 1935, the Supreme Court decided a case called NLRB versus Jones and Laughlin Steel Company.

00:18:06.420 It effectively, through a vote of five black-robe-wearing lawyers, amended the Constitution without going through the Article 5 process of actually amending it and changed the Commerce Clause, Article 1, Section 8, Clause 3, from the provision giving Congress to regulate actual interstate commerce, channels, instrumentalities of interstate commerce, and things and persons moving in interstate commerce, to the substantially affecting interstate commerce,

00:18:32.580 or the things that might, in the aggregate, have an economic impact that might, in turn, be interstate in its effect.

00:18:40.920 That was a dramatic transformation away from the structural protections of federalism and separation of powers.

00:18:47.380 It eroded federalism by giving more power to Washington, D.C.

00:18:50.780 It culminated, over the next few years, inevitably, in Congress all of a sudden saying,

00:18:55.080 oh, my gosh, we've now got all this power over all these regulatory issues like labor, manufacturing, and agriculture, and mining,

00:19:01.140 that while economic and nature take place in one state at one time, all of a sudden they couldn't handle it,

00:19:06.220 so they delegated all of it out to unelected, unaccountable bureaucrats, thus eroding separation of power. 0.99

00:19:11.380 Senator Lee, I hope you forgive me for laughing during that answer, because this is why I'm glad that I asked you the question.

00:19:17.760 If you had asked me to pinpoint that, I don't think I would have been able to pinpoint that moment,

00:19:21.660 and yet, what you're describing is a major change in how power moves in the country.

00:19:27.000 Senator.

00:19:27.180 I will say, what you just saw illustrates two things.

00:19:30.180 It's number one, why both Mike's staff and my staff get scared when we get together and start geeking out a lot,

00:19:36.720 because we both get really, really happy.

00:19:39.000 Right.

00:19:40.380 But secondly, look, I wouldn't point to any one decision.

00:19:45.220 There have been a lot of decisions that were problematic.

00:19:47.200 Yeah.

00:19:47.340 What I would point to is the rise of the activist court, which really got bad starting in the 60s and 70s.

00:19:54.540 You know, the framers referred to the courts as the least dangerous branch.

00:20:00.180 Right.

00:20:01.200 Because they couldn't make the law.

00:20:03.760 They couldn't enforce the law.

00:20:05.280 All they were charged to do, which was interpret it and apply it in cases and controversies before them.

00:20:09.960 Starting really in the 60s and 70s, the left decided, you know what?

00:20:17.400 It's too hard to actually go through the democratic proceeds.

00:20:21.360 It's too hard to actually convince our fellow citizens of our policy ideas.

00:20:25.920 All we've got to do is get five justices to decree what we like, and suddenly the law can be changed.

00:20:33.040 And I have to admit, in the process of this, many of the worst judicial activists on the court were put there by Republicans.

00:20:41.080 It's one of the great...

00:20:42.600 Irony.

00:20:44.140 Most.

00:20:45.340 If you look at Earl Warren and Bill Brennan, they were both put there by Dwight D. Eisenhower.

00:20:52.640 Earl Warren led the Warren court.

00:20:54.200 Remember, under Nixon, there was impeach Earl Warren bumper stickers.

00:20:58.720 William Brennan led the left on the court for three decades.

00:21:03.300 Now, let's start with those.

00:21:05.620 But look, not only Warren and Brennan, you've got Nixon appointed Harry Blackmun.

00:21:11.480 The author of Roe v. Wade was a Republican appointee.

00:21:14.800 John Paul Stevens, Gerald Ford put John Paul Stevens on board.

00:21:18.500 The leader of the left for decades.

00:21:22.000 David Souter.

00:21:23.000 Sandra Day O'Connor.

00:21:24.200 All of these were Republican nominees.

00:21:28.400 If you look at it, Democrats bat almost 1,000, to use a baseball analogy.

00:21:33.100 Virtually every one of their nominees does exactly what Democratic politicians would want them to do in any close contested case.

00:21:40.340 Republicans, at best, bat 500.

00:21:45.240 And it's because too many of our elected officials don't really give a damn.

00:21:48.240 And it's because we don't demand a proven, demonstrated record.

00:21:54.620 Yeah.

00:21:54.760 So, listen, I have publicly advocated for both of the vacancies that occurred under Donald Trump.

00:22:01.260 I urge the president emphatically both times to appoint Mike Lee.

00:22:05.260 That would be great.

00:22:06.040 He's mostly trying to get rid of me.

00:22:07.320 Yeah.

00:22:07.740 Get him out of the Senate.

00:22:09.120 Send him to that marble palace.

00:22:10.400 Listen, if I had won in 2016, Mike would be on the court right now.

00:22:13.260 Yeah.

00:22:13.380 Mike is on President Trump's list of 21.

00:22:17.500 In fact, interestingly enough, the Lee family together represents nearly 10% of the list because his brother Tom is on the list.

00:22:24.600 Wow.

00:22:25.040 One was on.

00:22:26.060 Tom was on the first 11 and Mike was on the second 10.

00:22:30.720 So they disagree on which of the two lists is better.

00:22:34.060 But I made the case to Trump to Pence over and over again for both vacancies.

00:22:39.120 If you want someone who we know that we know that we know will follow the Constitution no matter what.

00:22:44.580 And you know how you know that?

00:22:45.620 Yeah.

00:22:45.780 It's when they've been kicked in the teeth and they keep on going.

00:22:49.420 You know what I want in Supreme Court justices?

00:22:51.820 Someone who hates D.C. cocktail parties.

00:22:54.800 The worst dynamic on Supreme Court justices is they want to be loved.

00:22:59.560 They want to be accepted.

00:23:00.920 They read the newspapers.

00:23:01.980 They want to be celebrated by the newspaper, by the academy.

00:23:04.180 The way you do it is you move left, left, left, left, left.

00:23:06.400 When I'm looking for a judicial nominee, give me someone who's been through the battles, has been vilified, and hasn't blinked and has been faithful to the law and Constitution.

00:23:17.180 That is desperately needed.

00:23:18.980 Gentlemen, we have about one minute left.

00:23:20.620 But I do want to get your thoughts on one legal issue and political issue that is coming up right now.

00:23:26.280 And it is so egregious to me.

00:23:28.700 I need to know what you think.

00:23:30.640 This is from Evan.

00:23:33.020 This is about Uber Eats.

00:23:34.720 Uber Eats has now declared in this moment of the protests and Black Lives Matter that they're going to waive delivery fees for black-owned businesses, however that is determined.

00:23:45.020 And they're going to continue to keep delivery fees for white-owned businesses, however that is determined.

00:23:51.440 Seems to me, look, I'm not terribly educated on the law.

00:23:56.000 This can't possibly be right.

00:23:58.080 I think it's plainly illegal.

00:23:59.840 Okay.

00:24:00.380 I think they will be sued, and they will lose every one of the lawsuits.

00:24:03.540 You cannot discriminate under federal civil rights law, explicitly discriminate based on race, and charge one set of prices to one race and another set of prices to another race.

00:24:13.900 That is against the law, and it's a good example of how these guys, look, they want a virtue signal.

00:24:18.880 They want a virtue signal.

00:24:20.200 Okay, fine.

00:24:20.780 This is going to be a very expensive virtue signal because there are going to be some class-action lawyers ready to sue them, and they got no defense.

00:24:29.500 They are openly, willfully, defiantly ignoring federal civil rights laws.

00:24:35.140 Senator Lee?

00:24:35.640 Senator Lee.

00:25:05.620 If you want to.

00:25:06.480 But federal civil rights law draws a pretty bright line around race. 0.79

00:25:11.600 If you were to switch the races out and say, I'm going to offer this price to this race and that price to another, that would be problematic.

00:25:20.600 I agree with Ted.

00:25:21.980 I can't imagine this could possibly be upheld as lawful, even if it were, especially if it were.

00:25:30.280 Do you really want that out?

00:25:31.700 Right.

00:25:31.960 Do you want to live in a country where that happens?

00:25:34.000 Right.

00:25:34.100 Where that's lawful?

00:25:34.880 I don't think so.

00:25:35.440 There's the legal question.

00:25:36.380 There's the political question.

00:25:37.580 We have just seconds left.

00:25:39.280 But now that we've covered the law, we've covered politics, we've covered the Constitution, I need to get to a philosophical question that was asked urgently by one of our viewers.

00:25:47.280 This is from Ryan.

00:25:48.840 Is a hot dog a sandwich?

00:25:53.500 Senator Cruz? 0.87

00:25:54.120 I know this is a big Internet and Twitter thing, but I have to admit, I just don't give a damn.

00:26:00.740 I really, I would like to care about this.

00:26:04.540 I love hot dogs.

00:26:06.340 When I was in high school, my first date that I would take girls on was to James Coney Island.

00:26:11.900 Right.

00:26:12.260 And get chili cheese dogs because I can't stand people who are pretentious and it's impossible to be pretentious when you've got cheese dribbling down your shirt.

00:26:21.000 That is a fact.

00:26:21.560 So hot dogs are awesome.

00:26:24.100 It's what I have at baseball games.

00:26:25.520 It's what I have at movie theaters.

00:26:27.380 But whether it's not or not, it's a sandwich.

00:26:29.280 I just don't care.

00:26:29.860 This was an evasive political answer, Senator, if you don't mind my saying so, Senator White.

00:26:34.400 That was a weak sauce answer.

00:26:35.640 I've got to answer this one.

00:26:36.740 It's not a sandwich.

00:26:38.300 It's not that it doesn't deserve to be in the category of sandwich.

00:26:41.100 It's not that it's inferior.

00:26:42.280 It's its own genre.

00:26:44.100 It's its own species.

00:26:46.320 So to call it a sandwich doesn't give it the dignity that it deserves.

00:26:52.180 It's its own category.

00:26:53.940 So it's sort of like debating whether or not a corn dog would be a sandwich.

00:26:56.780 Well, it's surrounded by bread.

00:26:58.360 They're not really a sandwich.

00:26:59.360 It's a different genre.

00:27:00.520 I can tell that this debate could continue for many, many hours.

00:27:05.540 But unfortunately, we're out of time.

00:27:07.020 Senator Lee, thank you so much for being here.

00:27:08.780 Of course, Senator Cruz, I'll see you very soon.

00:27:11.740 I'm Michael Knowles.

00:27:12.380 This is Verdict with Ted Cruz.

00:27:22.240 This episode of Verdict with Ted Cruz is being brought to you by Jobs Freedom and Security

00:27:27.740 PAC, a political action committee dedicated to supporting conservative causes, organizations

00:27:32.900 and candidates across the country.

00:27:35.280 In 2022, Jobs Freedom and Security PAC plans to donate to conservative candidates running for

00:27:40.840 Congress and help the Republican Party across the nation.

00:27:44.800 This is an iHeart Podcast.

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Verdict with Ted Cruz - June 23, 2020

Is a Hotdog a Sandwich？ ft. Senator Mike Lee

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