Verdict with Ted Cruz - February 01, 2020


It’s Not Over Yet


Episode Stats


Length

32 minutes

Words per minute

192.8121

Word count

6,361

Sentence count

592

Harmful content

Misogyny

6

sentences flagged

Hate speech

6

sentences flagged


Summary

Summaries generated with gmurro/bart-large-finetuned-filtered-spotify-podcast-summ .

Ted Cruz and Lindsey Graham join me to discuss the most important vote of the entire impeachment trial, the one that could have ended it all if it wasn t for a vote by Sen. Lisa Murkowski (R-Alaska).

Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
Misogyny classifications generated with MilaNLProc/bert-base-uncased-ear-misogyny .
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
00:00:00.000 This is an iHeart Podcast.
00:00:02.520 Guaranteed human.
00:00:04.560 Hello, I'm Senator Lindsey Graham.
00:00:06.400 Welcome to Verdict with Ted Cruz, the number one podcast in the entire country.
00:00:11.520 What is a podcast?
00:00:20.620 Welcome back to Verdict with Ted Cruz.
00:00:23.200 I'm Michael Knowles.
00:00:24.020 I'm joined by not one, but two U.S. senators to help us break down the most shocking day
00:00:30.380 of the entire impeachment trial.
00:00:32.660 Senator Graham, thank you so much for being here.
00:00:34.360 Glad to be here.
00:00:34.880 Gentlemen, the last time that we sat down, I was told this impeachment was going to drag
00:00:40.120 on for weeks.
00:00:40.880 We were going to get witnesses.
00:00:42.020 We were going to get Bolton.
00:00:42.880 We were going to get Hunter Biden.
00:00:44.060 This was going to get long and ugly.
00:00:45.860 I go to sleep.
00:00:46.640 I wake up today and the senators are voting.
00:00:50.660 No more witnesses.
00:00:51.780 This thing could be over next week.
00:00:53.020 Senator Cruz, what happened?
00:00:54.600 Well, today was a big day.
00:00:56.060 And let me say, Lindsey, thank you.
00:00:57.860 Thank you.
00:00:58.480 I appreciate your coming.
00:01:00.000 This is late at night.
00:01:00.940 We spent all day in the Senate.
00:01:02.560 They're not spending a lot of money on production.
00:01:04.560 I'm sorry.
00:01:06.560 Well, this was, you're right.
00:01:08.740 Yesterday, if the vote had gone differently today, this trial could have gone on for months.
00:01:13.900 We could have seen it drag on and on and on.
00:01:16.600 And it was a big deal.
00:01:17.820 It was up in the air.
00:01:18.700 And today was the most important vote we've had in the entire trial.
00:01:21.700 Um, it really came down to, we knew we had 47 Democrats that wanted more witnesses.
00:01:29.620 Why?
00:01:30.200 Because they hadn't proved in the case they're losing.
00:01:32.620 And so the only hope they have is extend it, go on a fishing expedition and see if they
00:01:37.420 can find something.
00:01:38.720 The big open question was, were four Republicans going to join them?
00:01:42.180 We knew that two Republicans were.
00:01:43.860 They'd announced it already.
00:01:44.900 Mitt Romney and Susan Collins were voting with them.
00:01:46.880 There were two other senators who were in play, Lamar Alexander, Lisa Murkowski.
00:01:52.780 And it was close.
00:01:54.620 Last night, Lamar announced that he was going to come out and say enough is enough.
00:01:58.100 And we just found, got a final decision from Lisa today, just a few minutes before she voted.
00:02:03.160 Absolutely.
00:02:04.140 So I saw the update on my phone when Senator Murkowski finally decided she was going to vote
00:02:08.920 no more witnesses.
00:02:10.420 How does that work?
00:02:11.360 I, well, that's what I was going to ask you because it, Michael, have you ever seen his
00:02:16.280 phone?
00:02:16.900 Did you get, hang in there?
00:02:18.280 That's worth it.
00:02:18.980 Worth the wait.
00:02:21.020 Is, oh my, you don't get updates on it.
00:02:23.340 It is a flip phone.
00:02:24.600 It is.
00:02:24.940 The Russians can't get in this.
00:02:26.540 You'll all have one in a five year.
00:02:28.340 Senator Graham, you're clearly a fiscal conservative if you were using that kind of cell phone.
00:02:33.360 What happened with Senator Murkowski?
00:02:35.600 I know that you two gentlemen were dealing and dealing a little bit on the Senate floor.
00:02:40.380 Well, let's, number one, Ted was awesome.
00:02:43.480 We had a little team trying to convince people.
00:02:46.280 Can you say shit show on a podcast?
00:02:48.060 I think you just did, actually.
00:02:49.540 All right.
00:02:49.780 So what would happen if you call witnesses being a shit show?
00:02:52.680 Yeah.
00:02:52.900 You're just not going to call John Bolton.
00:02:55.040 If you're going to call a witness, we're going to call all the witnesses.
00:02:58.060 Would you know, want to know a little bit about the Bidens?
00:03:01.100 You know, I like Joe Biden, but give me a break.
00:03:03.620 If Mike Pence's son was making $3 million a year from the most corrupt gas company in the
00:03:08.980 Ukraine, don't you think you might hear about it?
00:03:11.440 You're only going to hear about the Bidens on this podcast.
00:03:14.120 So the bottom line here is Ted made a very eloquent argument that it throws the courts into chaos.
00:03:21.720 It'd be the first impeachment in history.
00:03:24.420 If you have executive privilege, it would be decided by the United States Senate that if you call one witness,
00:03:31.700 you're going to call a bunch of witnesses.
00:03:33.040 The president didn't get to call one witness in the House.
00:03:36.780 So you open up Pandora's box.
00:03:39.400 And number two, the whole idea of legitimizing an impeachment in the House that took 78 days.
00:03:46.980 You can't get a parking ticket in 78 days if you can test it.
00:03:51.100 Not one witness allowed to be called by the president.
00:03:53.420 No cross-examination.
00:03:54.680 The bottom line is the whole thing was a sham.
00:03:58.620 And we were trying to convince Lisa and everybody else, don't legitimize this.
00:04:02.560 Don't do their work for them.
00:04:03.880 They're accusing you of being unfair because you did not call a witness.
00:04:07.740 They chose not to call.
00:04:09.180 Why didn't they call John Bolton?
00:04:10.400 Because it would be inconvenient.
00:04:12.100 They couldn't impeach the president by Christmas.
00:04:14.780 That's not a good reason to ignore the courts.
00:04:17.080 Do you think that it was the public arguments, what we all saw on TV, that moved Senator Murkowski?
00:04:21.980 Or was it more private conversation?
00:04:24.260 So I think the pivotal moment happened day before yesterday.
00:04:28.000 Day before yesterday, Adam Schiff made a mistake.
00:04:30.840 He was standing up arguing.
00:04:32.020 And he said, listen, the White House defense team have made John Bolton relevant because they have contradicted what he said.
00:04:41.300 And then he threw a little aside.
00:04:42.540 He said, if they'd have stipulated to it, then they'd have an argument.
00:04:47.040 And it was interesting.
00:04:48.180 I heard that.
00:04:48.860 Jay Sekulow's eyes got real wide when he said that.
00:04:51.980 And I got up and went back to the cloakroom.
00:04:53.900 Lindsey went back to the cloakroom.
00:04:55.000 Well, I opened my eyes at that point.
00:04:57.080 So for those of us who are not U.S. senators, why is that the big light bulb moment?
00:05:00.940 So, well, I'll tell you.
00:05:01.980 So I immediately, in the cloakroom, got my phone, texted my team and said, give me the transcript of exactly what Schiff just said.
00:05:09.580 Yeah.
00:05:09.680 And I went to Lindsey and we began talking, saying, look, we need to get Lamar.
00:05:14.600 We need we need to get Lisa.
00:05:15.960 This idea of if you stipulate to a quid pro quo, if you agree, even if there is a quid pro quo, we win.
00:05:23.680 That might get their vote.
00:05:25.060 That might give them give them a ground to be comfortable.
00:05:27.760 So we got the script.
00:05:29.740 Lindsey and I together in the cloakroom, we talked with Lamar.
00:05:32.260 We showed him exactly what he said.
00:05:33.800 We said, what do you think about this?
00:05:34.980 We talked with Lisa.
00:05:35.880 He said, hey, what do you think about this?
00:05:37.980 They were open to the idea.
00:05:39.160 They weren't convinced, but they were thinking about it.
00:05:41.360 They were listening.
00:05:42.560 We kept talking the next day in the question period.
00:05:46.120 I think the most important question is a question Lindsey wrote that I helped him write.
00:05:50.160 And it was a question that was to the White House team that essentially said, if you assume for sake of argument that John Bolton testifies and everything he says is right, that we just assume everything's right, that there's a quid pro quo.
00:06:03.660 Is that an impeachable offense or not?
00:06:07.380 And the White House lawyers that they didn't want to go down this road.
00:06:10.340 They had to be dragged, kicking and screaming to this point.
00:06:13.980 And I'll tell you, there was some kicking and screaming that Lindsey and I were both engaged with.
00:06:17.860 But they got up and they gave the answer, the most important answer, where they said, look, even if he testified, even if he says it's a quid pro quo, it doesn't change that it's an impeachable offense, which means his testimony isn't necessary.
00:06:30.720 And they walked through, as we've been talking about on this podcast, that a president can always investigate corruption.
00:06:36.140 And if that's right, that a president can always investigate corruption, there was more than enough evidence of corruption.
00:06:41.560 And I think that played that exchange where the White House lawyers made that argument in response to the question we teed up, I think was pivotal to getting both Lisa and Lamar, especially Lisa, to yes, which we need.
00:06:55.140 So what you're saying is the White House team was was pushing back.
00:06:58.080 They didn't necessarily want to go down this road of if there was a quid pro quo, then X, Y and Z.
00:07:04.980 Right.
00:07:05.600 However, if you address that that argument and it still doesn't matter if there is a quid pro quo, then there is no basis whatsoever for the impeachment.
00:07:14.100 Well, there's no basis to call John Bolton.
00:07:16.080 So what brought all this up?
00:07:19.040 You know, Ted was very proud.
00:07:20.800 I'm a practical guy.
00:07:22.300 Lisa Murkowski is an independent from Alaska.
00:07:25.060 Yeah.
00:07:25.260 We're Republicans from Texas and South Carolina, a little different politics.
00:07:28.900 Yeah.
00:07:29.360 And here's here's the problem.
00:07:31.680 They could have called John Bolton and others, but they chose not to because they wanted to impeach the president before Christmas.
00:07:38.020 The president would declare it executive privilege.
00:07:40.600 It had gone to court like Nixon and Clinton did.
00:07:42.940 But that got in the way of this railroad right job.
00:07:46.200 But the problem is there's a blurb in The New York Times, as I always do, saying John Bolton has direct evidence that the president asked him to condition the aid on investigating the body and looking at interference by the Ukraine.
00:07:59.800 That was different.
00:08:01.300 The defense team of the president said there is no direct evidence.
00:08:04.960 And they're right.
00:08:05.400 There was no direct evidence in the record that the House chose to establish.
00:08:09.400 And from just a common sense point of view, it raises a question.
00:08:14.000 Lamar is an institutionalist.
00:08:15.820 He wanted to make sure that the Senate was a body that was open minded, fair.
00:08:21.160 And Lisa had to go back home and explain, well, why didn't you call any witnesses? 0.99
00:08:25.960 And here's the point.
00:08:27.000 If we call John Bolton now, won't the president raise executive privilege?
00:08:34.020 Because if he doesn't, he forfeits that for future presidents.
00:08:37.500 Do we as senators destroy the privilege?
00:08:40.320 It'd be the first impeachment in history where there was no court access.
00:08:44.100 We would have to decide executive privilege.
00:08:46.180 And I think that made Lamar feel uncomfortable.
00:08:48.200 So walk me through that just a little bit more, because this is now not an argument.
00:08:51.340 So this is really important right here.
00:08:53.600 So this is about what happens if we try to capture this testimony.
00:08:59.240 The president was denied the chance to go to court in the House.
00:09:02.780 They shut him out.
00:09:04.420 What if we say now we want to call him for a new reason?
00:09:08.860 And if he asked to go to court, the logic is the court of impeachment decides not Article
00:09:14.380 3 courts.
00:09:15.260 It may be the first time in history a president was impeached without ever being able to avail
00:09:19.800 the courts.
00:09:20.340 Right.
00:09:20.840 So what's the answer to this?
00:09:22.960 Assuming for a moment.
00:09:24.300 Arguendo.
00:09:24.960 Podcast people.
00:09:25.780 You know what arguendo means?
00:09:27.020 Go look up arguendo.
00:09:28.440 It was a little weak.
00:09:29.120 You showed off your Latin in the early episode.
00:09:31.520 So arguendo is a lawyer word and you put it in briefs all the time where you say assume
00:09:37.100 arguendo, which is I'm not admitting it, but assume for case of argument, this is true.
00:09:41.920 We still win.
00:09:42.680 And so you do that in briefs all the time.
00:09:44.300 Yeah, that's right.
00:09:44.820 In South Carolina, what if he said it is assuming arguendo?
00:09:48.660 Would it matter?
00:09:50.340 So I assume for a moment, for argument, for the sake of argument, that if John Bolton
00:09:57.260 did, if he was told by the president, I want to suspend aid until I find more about what
00:10:03.360 the Bidens did.
00:10:04.160 He had every reason in the world.
00:10:05.360 Because if you're in charge, Ted, if I put you in charge of fixing corruption in the
00:10:11.860 Ukraine and I find out that your son, who's told to you.
00:10:16.460 I'm told that job pays a million bucks a year.
00:10:18.360 Okay.
00:10:18.720 So don't you think.
00:10:19.960 It's better than podcasting.
00:10:20.840 Don't you think when Joe Biden gets in front of the Ukrainian parliament says, we got to
00:10:25.400 corruption in the Ukraine, particularly the energy sector.
00:10:29.540 And everybody said, well, why is your son on the border?
00:10:31.600 Buries by making a million dollars.
00:10:33.120 It kind of undercuts your argument.
00:10:34.960 It destroyed our ability, quite frankly, to be credible agents of change.
00:10:39.260 And that's a public policy.
00:10:40.740 And, you know, while Lamar said, that's right, there's a reason to look at that.
00:10:44.480 And there was all kind of evidence that the Ukraine didn't like Trump and like Clinton,
00:10:48.820 at least parts of it.
00:10:49.780 So the president had a legitimate public purpose.
00:10:52.440 And that gets back to Dershowitz.
00:10:53.780 He says, if there's a mixed motive, the reason this impeachment sucks so much, we got to get 0.57
00:10:58.680 into Trump's brain and find out how much of it was personal and how much it was public.
00:11:03.720 And what Ted and I said, you know, they said there's not a scintilla of evidence that the
00:11:08.300 Biden said anything wrong.
00:11:09.560 I said, no, there's not.
00:11:10.700 There's a herd of scintillas.
00:11:12.400 You know, if you find one of these little suckers roaming around, you win.
00:11:16.320 So, like, even I could prove this doesn't pass the smell test.
00:11:22.480 And they started thinking.
00:11:23.940 And I said, assume for a moment that the conversation was most beneficial to the House
00:11:28.980 managers.
00:11:29.760 You wind up right where you are today.
00:11:31.920 There was a legitimate public purpose to suspend the aid.
00:11:35.560 And this is not an impeachable offense.
00:11:37.440 Do you think the founders really meant to throw the president out of office, could never run
00:11:43.220 again, because for 40 days, the suspended aid of the Ukraine, they wind up getting the
00:11:48.120 money and they didn't investigate anybody.
00:11:50.160 But this is this is a real trick, a real political trick here, because you've got Senator Alexander,
00:11:55.700 who you say cares about the institution.
00:11:57.480 Yes, he's a wonderful man.
00:11:58.680 He's worried about the credibility.
00:11:59.620 Absolutely.
00:12:00.320 And you've got Senator Murkowski, who's independent.
00:12:03.300 She's got to go back home.
00:12:04.320 They had real problems.
00:12:05.380 So they have separate problems.
00:12:08.300 So Ted and I understood maybe differently than others.
00:12:11.020 And I'll let Ted talk here.
00:12:12.340 You've got to address the problem in front of you.
00:12:14.940 From Lisa Murkowski's point of view, if we could show Lisa that if you had the New York
00:12:21.040 Times article in front of you, and I tried to get a stipulation the day before, would
00:12:25.780 it really matter?
00:12:26.740 Wouldn't it still fall short of impeachment?
00:12:28.740 Is this really what they meant to throw a president out that you suspend aid when they
00:12:33.760 got the money, never did investigation, the big picture stuff?
00:12:36.760 Then I think that turned the thinking that you really didn't need Bolton because it wouldn't
00:12:41.900 change the outcome.
00:12:43.060 Right.
00:12:43.240 So one of the things that I think was really potent is Lindsay is a trial lawyer. 1.00
00:12:47.920 I'm an appellate lawyer.
00:12:49.220 Those are different worlds.
00:12:50.600 Those are different arenas.
00:12:51.840 I say shit show and he says other stuff.
00:12:53.880 So that's the difference between a trial lawyer and an appellate lawyer.
00:12:56.600 Look, look, trial lawyers talk to juries.
00:12:58.900 Appellate lawyers talk to judges.
00:13:00.500 Those are different ways of framing things.
00:13:03.020 But he and I teamed up very closely.
00:13:04.720 We probably wrote a dozen questions together, some of which we asked, some of which we gave
00:13:09.300 to our colleagues and they asked.
00:13:10.920 But a lot of it we were aiming over and over and over again.
00:13:14.620 We had a purpose.
00:13:15.600 At Lamar and Lisa.
00:13:17.440 Yeah.
00:13:17.720 Trying to move them, but trying to also give them.
00:13:20.840 You know, we've talked on this podcast a lot of times about framing the narrative and
00:13:24.160 choosing choosing the terrain on which you fight.
00:13:27.480 Right.
00:13:27.880 If the whole fight early on, the White House spent hours and hours saying there's no quid
00:13:31.660 pro quo, there's no quid pro quo.
00:13:33.060 Well, you know what?
00:13:34.640 If that's their argument, the fact that The New York Times says John Bolton says there
00:13:38.340 is a quid pro quo, that suddenly makes if someone is trying to be very even handed.
00:13:45.260 If that's the central dispute, it's really hard to say, well, gosh, shouldn't we bring
00:13:48.720 him in to testify?
00:13:49.920 What was important and it took a couple of days to get us there is to make clear it doesn't
00:13:55.320 matter if there was a quid pro quo or not.
00:13:57.200 Now, that's not the issue.
00:13:59.600 I'm sorry to interrupt.
00:14:00.760 There were these competing strategies.
00:14:02.600 There were these two.
00:14:03.360 OK, so here's the point.
00:14:04.820 You got to know who you're talking to.
00:14:07.320 Lisa Murkowski is very independent.
00:14:09.500 She's not going to do something because somebody tells her to.
00:14:12.820 It's inconvenient if you want a witness.
00:14:15.420 That's not going to matter.
00:14:16.840 It may hurt the team if you call a witness.
00:14:19.740 And Lamar loves the institution.
00:14:21.600 He's about to retire.
00:14:23.200 He's going to do what he thinks best.
00:14:24.840 And what we try to do is explain, play it out.
00:14:28.000 They're playing a game here.
00:14:29.020 They set us up.
00:14:30.540 They could have called the witness.
00:14:31.760 They chose not to because it's inconvenient.
00:14:34.120 Now they're asking you to deal out Article III courts bad.
00:14:38.460 So assume for a moment you had Bolton in front of you.
00:14:41.620 Would it really change the outcome here?
00:14:43.720 Does it make it an impeachable offense for Bolton to say what he's going to say?
00:14:47.720 And the answer is clearly no.
00:14:49.340 Now there was another argument that I think moved them quite a bit.
00:14:52.660 Yes.
00:14:53.260 And it was that what the Democrats were trying to do, if we'd have been 50-50.
00:14:57.740 This is a big one here.
00:14:58.880 The Democrats were trying to go after the U.S. Supreme Court.
00:15:02.240 Because if it had been 50-50, and we talked about this on the show last time, it's completely unclear.
00:15:08.300 And they would have tried to make John Roberts decide, and whatever he did, it would have been viewed through a political lens.
00:15:17.760 And so, look, one case that a number of us made is we're in a world where people have lost faith in Congress.
00:15:24.520 They've lost faith in the presidency.
00:15:26.320 And if we come through this and let the Democrats tarnish the Supreme Court, too, where they lose faith in every institution of government, that's a real problem.
00:15:36.380 And, Michael, I think we've got a clip here that will give an example of the Democrats' strategy.
00:15:42.160 A question from Senator Warren is for the House managers.
00:15:44.740 At a time when large majorities of Americans have lost faith in government, does the fact that the chief justice is presiding over an impeachment trial in which Republican senators have thus far refused to allow witnesses or evidence contribute to the loss of legitimacy of the chief justice, the Supreme Court, and the Constitution?
00:16:07.860 That is an insulting question.
00:16:09.940 Now, Michael, I'm going to tell you something surprising.
00:16:11.760 Yeah.
00:16:12.140 Elizabeth Warren helped defeat the impeachment of the president of the United States.
00:16:18.360 How do you mean?
00:16:19.040 That little stunt she pulled was a campaign stunt. 1.00
00:16:22.220 That was a fundraising stunt.
00:16:23.840 That was designed to thrill the left-wing activists in the Iowa caucuses.
00:16:29.000 There ain't nothing else going on than that.
00:16:31.120 But I'll tell you what, that stunt helped deliver the votes of Lisa and Lamar.
00:16:38.020 It did.
00:16:38.440 Because it made clear this is a political game, and if John Roberts doesn't vote the way Elizabeth Warren wants, she's going to call him a political hack and throw him into politics.
00:16:50.000 And it suddenly raised the price of their voting and making it 50-50 because you don't want to see the court thrown into that political swamp.
00:16:59.180 Do you agree with that, Lindsey?
00:17:00.080 A hundred percent.
00:17:00.660 Well, then all you've got to do is look at her statement.
00:17:03.180 She said, a fair trial in the Senate is impossible because of them.
00:17:07.080 This is Lisa Murkowski's statement.
00:17:08.280 So her statement was that they're going to set up the chief justice because they hate Trump so much.
00:17:14.700 So the difference between 51 and 50 is enormous.
00:17:17.840 If it's 50-50, then you put the chief justice in the crosshairs of history.
00:17:22.440 You begin to corrupt the court, as Ted said.
00:17:25.620 They could give a damn on the other side.
00:17:27.820 They just want an outcome here.
00:17:29.220 And I think it really mattered to Lamar and Lisa that Ted explained the historic nature of what the chief justice would be required to decide.
00:17:40.320 And I think I explained, honest to God, if you believed every word of John Bolton, would it matter?
00:17:46.740 The truth is it wouldn't.
00:17:47.680 By the way, a left-wing attack group today put out an attack ad with John Roberts wearing a MAGA hat.
00:17:53.740 Yeah.
00:17:54.260 And that ticked off Republican senators.
00:17:57.400 That helped produce the vote we had today.
00:17:59.820 So you think it was just an overreach by people like Senator Warren, by these left-wing groups?
00:18:04.240 So what I want to know, I mean, this was a truly shocking day.
00:18:08.700 What happens now?
00:18:10.580 Well, I just want to fill out with what you said.
00:18:12.560 It wasn't just an overreach by them.
00:18:14.480 They helped.
00:18:15.640 It was two senators who are good people thinking it through and Ted bringing to the table an expertise that very few people have, quite frankly.
00:18:24.020 And I just tried to say, listen, I try to be fair.
00:18:27.800 I supported the Mueller investigation.
00:18:30.120 I actually co-sponsored legislation that would prevent Mueller from being fired without causing it.
00:18:35.400 Yeah, what the heck were you thinking there?
00:18:36.620 Well, just to tell Trump, what the hell are you thinking?
00:18:39.540 I understand.
00:18:40.060 You know, if you fire this guy, you're dead.
00:18:42.100 And I thought Mueller would be fair, but this whole process has not been fair.
00:18:47.380 So I could say, listen, guys, it's not like I think the president's beyond being looked at.
00:18:52.880 What they did in the House is dangerous to the country.
00:18:55.660 It's a partisan impeachment, no due process, and we need to end it the right way.
00:19:00.360 Do not make it worse.
00:19:01.780 And what would make it worse is to do what Ted said, put the court in the crosshairs of history in the wrong way.
00:19:07.660 And what would make it worse is to to let them go to us into calling a witness that wouldn't matter because they think we're unfair.
00:19:15.620 You've done nothing wrong here.
00:19:17.400 It was the other side who did something wrong.
00:19:20.020 Well, and as a consequence, John Roberts is not in a position where he has to make any controversial rulings where they get where he's being set up to be attacked as being political.
00:19:30.480 He simply he presided over a fair trial and it was the senators who were voted.
00:19:35.360 And look, we're elected to make policy decisions and political decisions and also to apply the constitutional standard.
00:19:42.600 And that's what we did.
00:19:43.840 In some way, it feels like we dodged a bullet if it were a 50 50. 0.78
00:19:46.640 You have no idea.
00:19:47.600 No, you dodged a cannon truck.
00:19:50.840 Yeah.
00:19:51.400 But because really just play it out.
00:19:53.580 We we call witnesses.
00:19:55.460 Then you're not just going to call John Bolton.
00:19:58.180 You're going to have the whistleblower is going to be a nightmare for the country.
00:20:02.340 You have all kind of issues decided by the Senate should be decided by the courts.
00:20:06.380 And you would set a precedent that I think would make impeachment of every president in the future almost a certainty.
00:20:11.820 And it seemed actually in some of the arguments we heard during the trial that there was a threat there or an acknowledgement that if we continue down this path, we're going to impeach every president from now on.
00:20:22.620 Well, and that remains a real risk that that we've opened the door to.
00:20:27.020 So how do you stop that?
00:20:28.180 If the House loses and one of the reasons they lost is because they've gone crazy.
00:20:32.800 Donald Trump's changed the Republican Party, but he's driven the Democratic Party completely nuts.
00:20:37.680 So what would happen if President Trump gets reelected?
00:20:40.880 That's exoneration.
00:20:42.440 Well, and let me underscore that because that's a very good point.
00:20:45.960 I actually think Bill Clinton helped keep Barack Obama from getting impeached.
00:20:52.060 How so?
00:20:52.540 Now, why is that?
00:20:53.580 Republicans impeached Bill Clinton.
00:20:55.420 And actually, Lindsey was one of the managers. 0.98
00:20:57.380 I was one of the managers.
00:20:58.120 That's right.
00:20:58.680 Don't try this at home.
00:21:00.420 OK.
00:21:00.760 And it backfired.
00:21:02.080 It hurt Republicans.
00:21:03.680 It got Bill Clinton reelected.
00:21:05.280 It didn't work.
00:21:06.600 And a lot of Republicans took that message.
00:21:08.500 Hey, wait a second.
00:21:09.380 Being being seen, being too partisan, too aggressive, using impeachment.
00:21:13.900 That's a problem.
00:21:15.100 And so when it came to Obama, look, Obama, on the abuse of power theory that we've heard from the House managers, Obama abused his power in many respects.
00:21:23.780 And yet all of us agreed we shouldn't be impeaching Obama.
00:21:27.580 We should beat him at the ballot box, which we tried to do.
00:21:30.060 But impeachment wasn't the right tool.
00:21:31.940 Well, if Republicans hadn't gotten burned so bad on the Clinton impeachment, there would have been some loud voices to impeach Obama.
00:21:40.220 But as it was, people said, let's not go down that road.
00:21:43.100 So if you want to stop partisan impeachments going forward, the best way, and Lindsey, you're right, I hadn't thought about it and connected it like this.
00:21:49.980 The best way to stop it is is for Democrats to get walloped in November, because then the next Democrats will say, OK, wow, this this impeaching business.
00:22:00.200 And by the way, the Republicans will, too.
00:22:02.580 Well, you know, we still remember.
00:22:04.080 OK, Lamar asked a question.
00:22:06.980 What's the partisan difference between Nixon, Clinton and Trump?
00:22:11.660 A lot, a little none.
00:22:13.840 A lot of bipartisanship for Nixon.
00:22:17.120 Yeah.
00:22:17.260 That's the kind of thing the founders had in mind.
00:22:19.840 You know, this is a constitutional death penalty for a politician.
00:22:23.980 You should use it sparingly.
00:22:25.760 Clinton had 33 Democrats say, let's look at it.
00:22:29.120 Bipartisan impeachment.
00:22:30.280 And Clinton basically cheated Paula Jones out of her day in court, hid evidence, perjury, you name it. 1.00
00:22:37.520 You can't have the most powerful person in the country to store a private citizen's right to have their day in court.
00:22:43.840 Now, here we are with Trump.
00:22:45.820 Bipartisan rejection of the articles of impeachment.
00:22:49.020 And I think that bothered Lamar.
00:22:51.360 The way it was done and the outcome in the House.
00:22:54.940 We don't want to be part of that.
00:22:55.400 Actually, both of us joined with Lamar on a question on exactly that.
00:22:58.500 Yeah, no, Lamar really rose to the occasion here.
00:23:00.880 Because what you're saying is there was a bipartisan rejection of impeachment.
00:23:04.160 But in terms of the people who actually voted for impeachment, it was the first time in U.S. history you had a purely partisan impeachment.
00:23:10.720 Yeah, and I hope it's the last.
00:23:13.100 See, Clinton was in his second term.
00:23:15.660 Nixon resigned.
00:23:16.820 If Trump wins, he'll be the first person impeached in his first term to get reelected.
00:23:22.440 That will exonerate him.
00:23:24.320 Now, I want to know, obviously, the impeachment hearings have been so dreary and tedious.
00:23:29.240 You've got to be kidding me.
00:23:30.220 I know you'll be shocked if you're having fun.
00:23:33.260 I admit it.
00:23:33.840 If you're watching this podcast, you're loving this stuff.
00:23:36.000 Well, the podcast, maybe.
00:23:37.340 C-SPAN, I don't know.
00:23:38.360 Although, actually, people listen to this because they can't watch C-SPAN for 13 hours.
00:23:42.380 That's exactly right.
00:23:42.600 And it makes their eyes and ears bleed.
00:23:44.080 But this way, at least.
00:23:45.120 This is somewhere between C-SPAN and the trial.
00:23:48.520 Now, was there any moment that had some levity to it, some foibles?
00:23:56.560 I think the funniest moment was last night, the very last of the questions, 16 hours of questions.
00:24:02.480 Amy Klobuchar submits the last question, sends the card down.
00:24:05.060 Number one, she sends the wrong card down.
00:24:06.740 So the chief doesn't read it.
00:24:07.900 She realizes she's screwed up.
00:24:09.080 She has to run down and write her name on the card.
00:24:11.600 So that starts off.
00:24:13.060 Oh, it's not doing well.
00:24:14.380 We're cracking up at that.
00:24:15.160 And it's not that hard.
00:24:16.700 You literally write your name on it.
00:24:19.880 You know, kindergarten, first day of school.
00:24:20.800 We're not tricking you here.
00:24:22.400 I did it three times, and I didn't screw up.
00:24:25.020 You know, put your name on the top.
00:24:27.020 Lock letters.
00:24:27.720 I think she was thinking about Iowa.
00:24:29.180 Maybe she wasn't paying attention.
00:24:30.620 So, Phil, this is a good one.
00:24:32.040 Keep going.
00:24:32.560 So, her question was, would the house managers give a closing argument?
00:24:37.020 So, Adam Schiff stands up.
00:24:38.500 You see him kind of puff out his chest.
00:24:39.940 He starts walking forward.
00:24:41.740 And Jerry Nadler, who's sitting like four seats behind him, runs behind him,
00:24:46.140 pushes Schiff out of the way, and goes to the microphone.
00:24:49.860 And Schiff is literally going, Jerry, Jerry, Jerry.
00:24:53.360 And he stands there behind Nadler.
00:24:57.520 I mean, glaring.
00:24:59.240 He wanted to punch or strangle him.
00:25:02.320 These are the two house Democrat impeachment managers.
00:25:04.780 They're the leads.
00:25:05.980 And Nadler just went and gave his closing arguments.
00:25:08.980 And Schiff stood there for a good 10 seconds.
00:25:11.380 And then he just sat down and glared at Nadler the whole time.
00:25:16.280 And by the way, Roberts, he had his reading glasses on the tip of his nose.
00:25:20.500 And I've known John Roberts 25 years.
00:25:23.660 You saw a slight smile, which for him is cracking up laughing.
00:25:27.320 Because they almost had a fist fight.
00:25:29.220 This man has never smiled in his life.
00:25:32.300 He's actually wickedly funny.
00:25:34.120 I'll tell you.
00:25:35.480 I know John.
00:25:37.740 You're right.
00:25:38.160 He's a brilliant man.
00:25:38.600 That is some breaking news.
00:25:39.640 And he is in his own way.
00:25:40.840 Mitch McConnell is funny in his own way.
00:25:43.260 So here's the deal.
00:25:45.100 Jerry's wife is sick.
00:25:46.340 Let's pray for it.
00:25:47.420 Yeah.
00:25:47.640 She's got pancreatic cancer. 0.98
00:25:50.160 And I'm praying for Jerry.
00:25:51.020 I've known him for a long time.
00:25:52.080 But Jerry can throw a punch.
00:25:53.460 He can take a punch.
00:25:54.540 So number one, shift.
00:25:55.880 If Jerry Nadler is out running, you need to get in better shape.
00:25:59.980 But the deal is, it was just shocking.
00:26:04.580 And we were all pulling for Nadler to win the race.
00:26:07.880 We'd heard enough of shift.
00:26:09.180 So shift started good.
00:26:10.740 But after about 30 hours of shift, you're ready to turn the channel.
00:26:14.020 You know it's bad when people want to hear Nadler, not shift.
00:26:18.840 So the bottom line here is the classic story.
00:26:23.080 And I know we've got to go.
00:26:24.040 Because y'all got to do whatever you do.
00:26:26.260 In a podcast world.
00:26:29.460 Senator, is this your first podcast?
00:26:30.440 Just don't drink and drive.
00:26:31.720 So here's the deal.
00:26:33.260 It's flip-flown.
00:26:34.040 So Chuck Schumer, trying to be clever.
00:26:38.300 Sometimes he is.
00:26:39.140 Sometimes we all fall short in his business.
00:26:41.840 He invites.
00:26:43.960 He gives his ticket to be a spectator at the trial to Parnas.
00:26:49.000 This is this corrupt Ukrainian guy. 1.00
00:26:51.340 Crooked and snake guy.
00:26:52.420 In the Ukraine, he said, I'm in on it. 1.00
00:26:57.020 Lindsey Graham knew it all.
00:26:58.580 And they said, have you ever talked to Lindsey Graham?
00:27:00.260 No, but I heard he knew it all.
00:27:02.220 So I don't know it all.
00:27:05.400 So they invite him to come.
00:27:07.300 He shows up to get his ticket.
00:27:08.740 He can't get in because he's got an anklet bracelet from the court.
00:27:12.140 You can't make this one up.
00:27:16.660 That is, you know, I almost wish the impeachment.
00:27:19.180 Schumer's guest can't come into the trial because he's got an ankle bracelet.
00:27:22.220 That's par for the courts.
00:27:23.100 Well, you know, State of the Union, I heard Schumer's bringing Charles Manson.
00:27:27.100 That'd be good.
00:27:28.100 That'd be interesting if the guys did.
00:27:29.560 So anyway, I've never done this before.
00:27:32.720 If you're number two in the podcast world, you need to up your game.
00:27:36.440 Because this is number one.
00:27:37.860 Because apparently we're number one.
00:27:39.060 I know that.
00:27:42.520 I'll take that as a compliment.
00:27:44.060 Maybe.
00:27:44.680 Who's number two?
00:27:46.300 You know, speaking of, we've got to get you out of here because the senators are off.
00:27:49.920 You get a couple of days off now.
00:27:51.580 Yeah, we are union.
00:27:52.920 We're done by night.
00:27:54.320 I'm headed to Texas.
00:27:55.600 Heading to Texas.
00:27:56.700 Senator Graham, you're done as well.
00:27:58.000 I'm going to South Carolina.
00:27:59.060 One last story.
00:27:59.840 You know, the two guys that led the Alamo, both of them are from South Carolina.
00:28:04.400 What does that mean?
00:28:05.060 We'll go a long way for a lost cause.
00:28:07.600 And I was an impeachment manager.
00:28:10.340 Texas heroes.
00:28:10.880 I would love Texas heroes.
00:28:12.260 God bless Texas.
00:28:13.160 But Henry and I was giving us the old, take the hill, boys.
00:28:16.480 We're going to go over the Senate.
00:28:18.060 We're going to stand for truth, justice in the American way.
00:28:21.580 You know, the brave men and women at the Alamo.
00:28:25.180 You know, they stood their ground.
00:28:28.060 And, you know, that's our charge.
00:28:30.740 That's our charter.
00:28:31.640 I said, hey, Henry, didn't they all get killed?
00:28:33.900 And he says, that's something I ignored, but it's a good point. 1.00
00:28:37.820 But he did say, we're still talking about him to this day.
00:28:41.200 It's true.
00:28:41.960 And a final point wrapping up.
00:28:43.840 There will be another bombshell.
00:28:45.600 There will be another.
00:28:46.100 Between now and Wednesday.
00:28:47.380 Kavanaugh times two.
00:28:48.540 I promise you something else is coming between now and the verdict on impeachment that will
00:28:55.100 be voted on on Wednesday.
00:28:56.300 There'll be another bombshell.
00:28:57.420 In the New York Times, probably.
00:28:59.040 But something else is coming.
00:29:00.460 Because when I saw it today, I just thought, okay, it's over, right?
00:29:03.980 I don't need to worry about it anymore.
00:29:05.400 You're saying, oh, they're not done.
00:29:07.220 We both were on Kavanaugh.
00:29:08.580 And you asked what's next.
00:29:09.940 After this, we're going to ask some hard questions to the State Department.
00:29:12.800 Why didn't you understand this conflict of interest?
00:29:15.220 Why didn't you do something about it?
00:29:17.140 We're going to get to the bottom of the Pfizer-Warrant abuse.
00:29:19.540 We're going to do all that stuff.
00:29:21.140 By the way, this is breaking news.
00:29:22.700 Yeah.
00:29:22.980 We cannot live in a country.
00:29:24.840 Because a lot of questions in the mailbag.
00:29:26.620 People are asking, are we going to get to the bottom?
00:29:29.460 Not because I actually like Joe Biden.
00:29:32.200 I've traveled the world with him.
00:29:33.400 But, you know, if it had been Mike Pence or Vice President Cheney, they'd be all over.
00:29:38.400 We can't live in a world where just one side gets looked at.
00:29:41.340 I don't have any animosity in my heart toward anyone.
00:29:45.100 But the truth of the matter is, you've got to have a country where the rules matter for everybody, not just President Trump.
00:29:51.340 I mean, not for Democrats.
00:29:53.600 President Trump, from the day he took office to now, has gone through hell.
00:29:57.240 His family's gone through hell.
00:29:58.480 And I promise you, to those who care, we're going to get to the bottom of Burisma because it's important we find out about Burisma.
00:30:05.420 We're going to find out, how could you issue a warrant four times against an American citizen?
00:30:09.840 Here's the world.
00:30:10.800 If Trump goes to a Russian restaurant to have dinner, he's a Russian. 0.96
00:30:15.000 Yeah.
00:30:15.460 You know, and, you know, you can have $3 million paid to your son in the Ukraine and nobody cares.
00:30:21.100 Now, if President Trump gets acquitted, you're saying the Senate Republicans are not going to give up on this.
00:30:25.820 What can be done to get to the bottom of Burisma?
00:30:28.880 Jim Rich is chairman of the Foreign Relations Committee.
00:30:31.240 The first witness I want to call is John Kerry's chief of staff.
00:30:34.420 When you were told that there was a conflict of interest by John Kerry's stepson, who was their business partner, why didn't you do something about it?
00:30:42.100 And last I checked, both you and I are on foreign relations.
00:30:44.860 Last time I checked, we're on judiciary and we're on foreign relations.
00:30:49.380 This is the beginning of a day of reckoning.
00:30:52.900 And this is not not the beginning of the end.
00:30:55.140 Maybe the end of the beginning we're moving on is the end of the podcast.
00:30:58.760 And it's the end of the thing I want to know before we let you get out of here and hop onto a plane.
00:31:03.680 One last thing is I noticed it's much earlier tonight.
00:31:07.480 Usually we're here at two o'clock in the morning.
00:31:09.220 It's only 11 o'clock at night.
00:31:11.760 Why is it that Mitch McConnell, that all these senators are letting people get out of here so early?
00:31:16.880 Was there some I think the Democrats wanted to go to Iowa, the Democrats, they were jumping to go to Iowa.
00:31:25.020 Did did you talk to any of your colleagues?
00:31:27.700 Were they?
00:31:28.900 Well, you know, let's look at it this way.
00:31:31.620 I'm not married.
00:31:33.200 So why can't you get everything done the way you want it?
00:31:36.680 I'll let Ted answer that question.
00:31:38.400 We've got 100 people in the Senate.
00:31:40.320 Everybody has different agendas.
00:31:42.360 But Monday, so Sunday's Super Bowl, right?
00:31:45.640 Monday is the Iowa caucus.
00:31:47.420 Tuesday's the State of the Union.
00:31:49.120 Bottom line is this is the best Mitch could do.
00:31:51.460 And I think Mitch McConnell did a brilliant job handling this.
00:31:54.460 I really do.
00:31:55.160 Bets on the Super Bowl before we go?
00:31:57.040 Look, I'm rooting for the Chiefs just because they beat the Texans.
00:32:00.180 And so on that principle, if they go on to win it all, I get to say the Texans are the second best in my reckoning.
00:32:06.340 I'm pulling for the Falcons.
00:32:08.120 There we are.
00:32:08.780 That's our show.
00:32:09.520 That's the final verdict on the Super Bowl.
00:32:11.640 We've got a whole lot more coming up next week.
00:32:13.780 I don't like my chances.
00:32:17.260 I'm Michael Knowles.
00:32:18.760 On behalf of Senator Lindsey Graham, so gracious to spend the night in our bunker over here.
00:32:23.400 Yeah.
00:32:23.800 This is Verdict with Ted Cruz.
00:32:33.840 This episode of Verdict with Ted Cruz is being brought to you by Jobs, Freedom, and Security
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