Verdict with Ted Cruz - Lindsey Graham Guest-Hosts Verdict Flashback

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00:01:40.480 Union. Welcome to a very special episode of Verdict with Senator Ted Cruz, Ben Ferguson

00:01:48.020 with you. And as we promised, Senator, as we talked about your dear friend, Lindsey Graham

00:01:53.000 and his passing. We said we were going to put out that original episode with the senator that he was

00:01:58.380 the very, very first guest of Verdict, and that is going to be this show. Well, Lindsey Graham,

00:02:05.400 the Senate lost Lindsey this weekend. The world lost Lindsey this weekend. He was one of a kind.

00:02:11.680 He had an extraordinary life and legacy serving our nation, 23 years in the Senate, 33 years in

00:02:17.420 the Air Force. He made a profound difference, and he was also, he was the very first guest

00:02:25.000 on Verdict right when this show launched, and he came in and joined us right when the show was

00:02:31.640 started. It started on the first day of the very first Trump impeachment. This episode is in the

00:02:36.740 middle of the impeachment, and Lindsey came from the Senate floor leaving about midnight to go to

00:02:42.520 the studio to record it it was a classic and and priceless episode in fact he starts off by saying

00:02:51.080 what is a podcast and we actually talked for years about selling t-shirts verdict with ted

00:03:00.140 cruz and on the back what is a podcast lindsey graham yeah um it was he was one of a kind i am

00:03:09.260 grieving and miss my friend, every member of the Senate, Mrs. Lindsey Graham. And give a listen to

00:03:16.320 this podcast. Watch this podcast to remember why he was such an extraordinary senator and such an

00:03:24.420 extraordinary human being. Hello, I'm Senator Lindsey Graham. Welcome to Verdict with Ted Cruz,

00:03:30.120 the number one podcast in the entire country. What is a podcast? Welcome back to Verdict with

00:03:36.620 Ted Cruz. I'm Michael Knowles. I'm joined by not one, but two U.S. senators to help us break down

00:03:42.880 the most shocking day of the entire impeachment trial. Senator Graham, thank you so much for

00:03:48.060 being here. Glad to be here. Gentlemen, the last time that we sat down, I was told this impeachment

00:03:53.600 was going to drag on for weeks. We were going to get witnesses. We were going to get Bolton. We

00:03:57.200 were going to get Hunter Biden. This was going to get long and ugly. I go to sleep. I wake up today

00:04:01.720 and the senators are voting no more witnesses this thing could be over next week senator

00:04:07.560 cruz what happened well today was a big day and let me say lindsey thank you welcome i appreciate

00:04:13.600 your coming this is late at night we spent all day all day spending a lot of money on production

00:04:18.100 well this was you're right yesterday if the vote had gone differently today this trial could have

00:04:26.780 gone on for months we could have seen it drag on and on and on and it was a big deal it was up in

00:04:32.560 the air and today was the most important vote we've had in the entire trial um it really came

00:04:39.380 down to we knew we had 47 democrats that wanted more witnesses why because they hadn't proved in

00:04:45.380 the case they're losing and so the only hope they have is extend it go on a fishing expedition and

00:04:51.300 see if they can find something the big open question was were four republicans going to join

00:04:56.080 We knew that two Republicans were. They'd announced it already. Mitt Romney and Susan Collins were voting with them. There were two other senators who were in play, Lamar Alexander, Lisa Murkowski. And it was close. Last night, Lamar announced that he was going to come out and say enough is enough. And we just found, got a final decision from Lisa today, just a few minutes before she voted.

00:05:17.400 Absolutely.

00:05:18.380 So I saw the update on my phone when Senator Murkowski finally decided she was going to vote no more witnesses.

00:05:24.660 How does that work?

00:05:26.480 Well, that's what I was going to ask you, because, Michael, have you ever seen his phone?

00:05:31.180 Hang in there. That's worth it. Worth the wait.

00:05:35.500 Oh, my. You don't get updates on this?

00:05:37.580 It is a flip phone. 1.00

00:05:39.080 The Russians can't get in this. You'll all have one in five years. 1.00

00:05:42.600 Senator Graham, you are clearly a fiscal conservative if you were using that kind of cell phone.

00:05:47.620 What happened with Senator Murkowski?

00:05:49.740 I know that you two gentlemen were dealing and dealing a little bit on the Senate floor.

00:05:54.660 Well, let's, number one, Ted was awesome.

00:05:57.720 We had a little team trying to convince people. 0.99

00:06:00.500 Can you say shit show on a podcast? 0.99

00:06:02.320 I think you just did, actually. 1.00

00:06:03.800 All right. 0.99

00:06:04.040 So what would happen if you call witnesses being a shit show? 0.99

00:06:06.920 Yeah. 0.99

00:06:07.160 You're just not going to call John Bolton.

00:06:09.280 If you're going to call a witness, we're going to call all the witnesses.

00:06:12.300 Would you want to know a little bit about the Bidens?

00:06:15.340 You know, I like Joe Biden, but give me a break.

00:06:17.840 If Mike Pence's son was making $3 million a year from the most corrupt gas company in the Ukraine,

00:06:23.660 Don't you think you might hear about it?

00:06:25.580 You're only going to hear about the Bidens on this podcast.

00:06:28.360 So the bottom line here is Ted made a very eloquent argument that it throws the courts into chaos.

00:06:35.960 It would be the first impeachment in history.

00:06:38.660 If you have executive privilege, it would be decided by the United States Senate that if you call one witness, you're going to call a bunch of witnesses.

00:06:47.260 The president didn't get to call one witness in the House.

00:06:50.800 So you open up Pandora's box. And number two, the whole idea of legitimizing an impeachment in the House that took 78 days.

00:07:01.140 You can't get a parking ticket in 78 days if you can test it. Not one witness allowed to be called by the president.

00:07:07.680 No cross-examination. The bottom line is the whole thing was a sham.

00:07:12.760 And we were trying to convince Lisa and everybody else, don't legitimize this. Don't do their work for them.

00:07:18.040 They're accusing you of being unfair because you did not call a witness.

00:07:22.000 They chose not to call.

00:07:23.440 Why didn't they call John Bolton?

00:07:24.660 Because it would be inconvenient.

00:07:26.340 They couldn't impeach the president by Christmas.

00:07:29.040 That's not a good reason to ignore the courts.

00:07:31.340 Do you think that it was the public arguments, what we all saw on TV, that moved Senator Murkowski?

00:07:36.420 Or was it more private conversations?

00:07:38.540 So I think the pivotal moment happened day before yesterday.

00:07:42.260 Day before yesterday, Adam Schiff made a mistake.

00:07:44.520 He was standing up arguing. He said he said, listen, the White House defense team have made John Bolton relevant because they have contradicted what he said.

00:07:55.600 And then he threw a little aside. He said, if they'd have stipulated to it, then they'd have an argument.

00:08:01.340 And it was interesting. I heard that Jay Sekulow's eyes got real wide when he said that.

00:08:05.900 And I got up and went back to the cloakroom. Lindsay went back to the cloakroom.

00:08:09.260 Well, I opened my eyes at that point.

00:08:11.020 So for those of us who are not U.S. senators, why is that the big light bulb moment?

00:08:15.180 So, well, I'll tell you.

00:08:16.240 So I immediately, in the cloakroom, got my phone, texted my team and said, give me the transcript of exactly what Schiff just said.

00:08:23.740 And I went to Lindsey and we began talking, saying, look, we need to get Lamar, we need to get Lisa.

00:08:31.040 This idea of if you stipulate to a quid pro quo, if you agree, even if there is a quid pro quo, we win, that might get their vote.

00:08:39.280 that might give them give them a ground to be comfortable so we got the script lindsey and i

00:08:44.620 together in the cloakroom we talked with lamar we showed him exactly what he said we said what do

00:08:48.660 you think about this we talked with lisa right he said hey what do you think about this they were

00:08:52.600 open to the idea they weren't convinced but they were thinking about it they were listening

00:08:56.280 we kept talking the next day in the question period i think the most important question is

00:09:01.980 a question lindsey wrote that i helped him write and it was a question that was to the white house

00:09:06.780 team that essentially said, if you assume for sake of argument that John Bolton testifies and

00:09:13.000 everything he says is right, that we just assume everything's right, that there's a quid pro quo,

00:09:18.000 is that an impeachable offense or not? And the White House lawyers, they didn't want to go down

00:09:24.120 this road. They had to be dragged, kicking and screaming to this point. And I'll tell you,

00:09:28.700 there was some kicking and screaming that Lindsay and I were both engaged with. But they got up and

00:09:33.380 they gave the answer the most important answer where they said look even if he testified even

00:09:38.320 if he says it's a quid pro quo it doesn't change that it's an impeachable offense which means his

00:09:43.160 testimony isn't necessary and they walked through as we've been talking about on this podcast right

00:09:48.140 that a president can always investigate corruption and if that's right that a president can always

00:09:53.060 investigate corruption there was more than enough evidence of corruption and i think that played

00:09:58.000 that exchange where the white house lawyers made that argument in response to the question we teed

00:10:03.260 up i think was pivotal to getting both lisa and lamar especially lisa to yes which we need so what

00:10:09.660 you're saying the white house team was was pushing back they didn't necessarily want to go down this

00:10:14.540 road of if there was a quid pro quo then x y and z right however if you address that that argument

00:10:22.860 and it still doesn't matter if there is a quid pro quo then there is no basis whatsoever for

00:10:27.500 the impeachment well there's no basis to call john bolton so what brought all this up you know

00:10:33.900 ted was very proud i'm a practical guy lisa murkowski is an independent from alaska yeah

00:10:39.500 we're republicans from texas and south carolina a little different politics yeah

00:10:43.580 and here's here's the problem they could have called john bolton and others but they choose

00:10:48.940 not to because they wanted to impeach the president before christmas the president would

00:10:53.180 declared executive privilege, had gone to court like Nixon and Clinton did, but that got in the

00:10:58.140 way of this railroad right job. But the problem is there's a blurb in the New York Times, as they

00:11:03.820 always do, saying John Bolton has direct evidence that the president asked him to condition the aid

00:11:10.100 on investigating the Bidens looking at interference by the Ukraine. That was different. The defense

00:11:17.020 team of the president said there is no direct evidence, and they're right. There was no direct

00:11:20.240 evidence in the record that the House chose to establish. And from just a common sense point of

00:11:26.360 view, it raises a question. Lamar is an institutionalist. He wanted to make sure

00:11:31.080 that the Senate was a body that was open-minded, fair, and Lisa had to go back home and explain, 0.96

00:11:37.800 well, why didn't you call any witnesses? And here's the point. If we call John Bolton now,

00:11:44.000 won't the president raise executive privilege because if he doesn't he forfeits that for

00:11:50.440 future presidents do we as senators destroy the privilege it'd be the first impeachment in history

00:11:56.300 where there was no court access we would have to decide executive privilege and i think that

00:12:00.960 made lamar feel uncomfortable so so walk me through that just a little bit more because

00:12:04.240 this is now not an argument so this is really important right here so this is about what

00:12:09.520 happens if we try to capture this testimony the president was denied the chance to go to court in

00:12:16.460 the house they shut him out what if we say now we want to call him for a new reason and if he

00:12:23.660 asked to go to court the logic is the court of impeachment decides not article three courts

00:12:29.240 it may be the first time in history a president was impeached without ever being able to avail

00:12:34.040 the courts right so what's the answer to this assuming for a moment arguendo podcast people

00:12:40.000 go look up go look up okay you showed off your latin in the early episode so arguendo i am like

00:12:47.020 it is a lawyer word and you put it in grace all the time where you say assume arguendo which is

00:12:52.480 i'm not admitting it yeah but assume for case of argument this is true we still win and so you do

00:12:57.360 that in briefs all the time yes right in south carolina what if he said it yeah it's assuming

00:13:02.240 an arguendo would it matter so i i assume for a moment for arguendo for the sake of uh argument

00:13:10.000 that if john bolton did if he was told by the president i want to suspend aid until i find

00:13:16.940 more about what the biden's did he had every reason in the world because if you're in charge

00:13:21.840 ted if i put you in charge of uh fixing corruption in the ukraine and i find out that your son who's

00:13:30.260 You know, I'm told that job pays a million bucks a year.

00:13:33.040 That's pretty good.

00:13:33.980 Pays better than podcasting.

00:13:35.080 Don't you think when Joe Biden gets in front of the Ukrainian parliament and says,

00:13:39.280 we've got to end corruption in the Ukraine, particularly the energy sector,

00:13:43.640 and everybody's saying, well, why is your son on the border breeze by making a million dollars?

00:13:47.380 It kind of undercuts your argument.

00:13:49.240 It destroyed our ability, quite frankly, to be credible agents of change.

00:13:53.620 And that's a public policy.

00:13:55.280 And you know what, Lamar said, that's right.

00:13:56.800 There's a reason to look at that.

00:13:58.680 And there was all kind of evidence that the Ukraine didn't like Trump and like Clinton, at least parts of it.

00:14:04.020 So the president had a legitimate public purpose. And that gets back to Dershowitz.

00:14:08.060 He says, if there's a mixed motive, the reason this impeachment sucks so much,

00:14:12.300 we got to get into Trump's brain and find out how much of it was personal and how much it was public.

00:14:17.980 And what Ted and I said, you know, they said there's not a scintilla of evidence that the Biden said anything wrong.

00:14:23.820 I said, no, there's not. There's a herd of scintillas.

00:14:25.960 You know, if you find one of these little suckers roaming around, you win.

00:14:31.840 So, like, even I could prove this doesn't pass the smell test.

00:14:36.380 And they started thinking, and I said, assume for a moment that the conversation was most beneficial to the House managers.

00:14:44.200 You wind up right where you are today.

00:14:46.160 There was a legitimate public purpose to suspend the aid, and this is not an impeachable offense.

00:14:51.600 do you think the founders really meant to throw the president out of office who could never run

00:14:57.480 again because for 40 days he suspended aid to the Ukraine, they wind up getting the money and they

00:15:02.840 didn't investigate anybody? But this is a real trick, a real political trick here, because

00:15:07.820 you've got Senator Alexander, who you say cares about the institution. Yes, he's a wonderful man.

00:15:12.920 He's worried about the credibility of the Senate. Absolutely. And you've got Senator Murkowski,

00:15:16.380 who's independent. She's got to go back home to her state. Yes, they had real problems. So they 1.00

00:15:20.060 They have separate problems.

00:15:22.320 So Ted and I understood maybe differently than others, and I'll let Ted talk here.

00:15:26.960 You've got to address the problem in front of you.

00:15:29.160 From Lisa Murkowski's point of view, if we could show, Lisa, that if you had the New York Times article in front of you,

00:15:36.720 and I tried to get a stipulation the day before, would it really matter?

00:15:41.000 Wouldn't it still fall short of impeachment?

00:15:43.020 Is this really what they meant to throw a president out that you suspend aid when they got the money and never did an investigation?

00:15:49.780 the big picture stuff, then I think that turned the thinking that you really didn't need Bolton

00:15:55.040 because it wouldn't change the outcome. Right. So one of the things that I think was really potent

00:15:59.740 is Lindsey is a trial lawyer. I'm an appellate lawyer. Those are different worlds. Those are

00:16:05.160 different arenas. I say shit show and he says other stuff. So that's the difference between 0.99

00:16:09.220 a trial lawyer and an appellate lawyer. Look, look, trial lawyers talk to juries. Appellate

00:16:13.500 lawyers talk to judges. Those are different ways of framing things. But he and I teamed up very

00:16:18.580 closely we probably wrote a dozen questions together some of which we asked some of which

00:16:23.180 we gave to our colleagues and they asked but a lot of it we were aiming over and over and over again

00:16:28.800 we had a purpose at lamar and lisa yeah trying to move them but trying to also give them you know

00:16:35.200 we've talked on this podcast a lot of times about framing the narrative and choosing choosing the

00:16:40.160 terrain on which you fight right if the whole fight early on the white house spent hours and

00:16:44.860 hours saying there's no quid pro quo there's no quid pro quo well you know what if that's their

00:16:49.680 argument the fact that the new york times says john bolton says there is a quid pro quo that

00:16:54.180 suddenly makes if someone is trying to be very even-handed if that's the central dispute it's

00:17:01.280 really hard to say well gosh shouldn't we bring him in to testify what was important and it took

00:17:05.900 a couple of days to get us there is to make clear it doesn't matter if there was a quid pro quo or

00:17:11.240 not. That's not the issue. I'm sorry to interrupt. There were these competing strategies.

00:17:16.840 There were these two. Okay. So here's the point. You got to know who you're talking to.

00:17:21.540 Lisa Murkowski is very independent. She's not going to do something because somebody tells her

00:17:26.540 to. It's inconvenient if you want a witness. That's not going to matter. It may hurt the team

00:17:32.480 if you call a witness. And Lamar loves the institution. He's about to retire. He's going

00:17:37.900 to do what he thinks best. And what we try to do is explain, play it out. They're playing a game

00:17:43.040 here. They set us up. They could have called the witness. They chose not to because it's

00:17:47.400 inconvenient. Now they're asking you to deal out Article III courts bad. So assume for a moment

00:17:53.940 you had Bolton in front of you. Would it really change the outcome here? Does it make it an

00:17:58.820 impeachable offense for Bolton to say what he's going to say? And the answer is clearly no.

00:18:04.060 Now, there was another argument that I think moved them quite a bit.

00:18:06.680 Yes. And it was that what the Democrats were trying to do, if we'd have been a 50 50, this is a big one here.

00:18:13.140 The Democrats were trying to go after the U.S. Supreme Court because if it had been 50 50 and we talked about this on the show last time, it's completely unclear if there is.

00:18:23.780 They would have tried to make John Roberts decide, and whatever he did, it would have been viewed through a political lens.

00:18:32.020 And so, look, one case that a number of us made is we're in a world where people have lost faith in Congress.

00:18:38.800 They've lost faith in the presidency.

00:18:40.900 And if we come through this and let the Democrats tarnish the Supreme Court, too, where they lose faith in every institution of government, that's a real problem.

00:18:50.500 And, Michael, I think we've got a clip here that'll give an example of the Democrats' strategy.

00:18:56.420 A question from Senator Warren is for the House managers.

00:18:59.820 At a time when large majorities of Americans have lost faith in government, does the fact that the chief justice is presiding over an impeachment trial in which Republican senators have thus far refused to allow witnesses or evidence contribute to the loss of legitimacy of the chief justice, the Supreme Court, and the Constitution?

00:19:20.500 Now, that is an insulting question. Now, Michael, I'm going to tell you something surprising. Yeah. Elizabeth Warren helped defeat the impeachment of the president of the United States. How do you mean? That little stunt she pulled was a campaign stunt. That was a fundraising stunt that was designed to thrill the left wing activists in the Iowa caucus.

00:19:41.520 There ain't nothing else going on than that. But I'll tell you what, that stunt helped deliver the votes of Lisa and Lamar.

00:19:51.060 It did. Because it made clear this is a political game.

00:19:55.960 And if John Roberts doesn't vote the way Elizabeth Warren wants, she's going to call him a political hack and throw him into politics.

00:20:02.980 and it suddenly raised the price of their voting and making it 50-50

00:20:08.740 because you don't want to see the court thrown into that political swamp.

00:20:12.180 Do you agree with that, Lindsey?

00:20:13.060 A hundred percent.

00:20:13.840 All you got to do is look at her statement.

00:20:16.120 She said a fair trial in the Senate is impossible because of them.

00:20:20.060 This is Lisa Murkowski's statement.

00:20:21.280 Yeah, so her statement was that they're going to set up the chief justice

00:20:25.340 because they hate Trump so much.

00:20:27.720 So the difference between 51 and 50 is enormous.

00:20:30.420 If it's 50-50, then you put the chief justice in the crosshairs of history.

00:20:35.420 You begin to corrupt the court, as Ted said.

00:20:38.800 They could give a damn on the other side.

00:20:40.820 They just want an outcome here.

00:20:42.600 And I think it really mattered to Lamar and Lisa that Ted explained the historic nature

00:20:49.720 of what the chief justice would be required to decide.

00:20:53.280 And I think I explained, honest to God, if you believed every word of John Bolton, would

00:20:58.380 it matter?

00:20:59.680 The truth is it wouldn't.

00:21:00.920 By the way, a left-wing attack group today put out an attack ad with John Roberts wearing a MAGA hat.

00:21:06.620 And that ticked off Republican senators.

00:21:10.600 That helped produce the vote we had today.

00:21:12.780 So you think it was just an overreach by people like Senator Warren, by these left-wing groups?

00:21:17.220 So what I want to know, I mean, this was a truly shocking day.

00:21:21.680 What happens now?

00:21:23.500 Well, I just want to fill out with what you said.

00:21:25.540 It wasn't just an overreach by them.

00:21:27.460 They helped.

00:21:28.040 It was two senators who are good people thinking it through and Ted bringing to the table an expertise that very few people have, quite frankly.

00:21:37.620 And I just tried to say, listen, I try to be fair.

00:21:40.940 I supported the Mueller investigation.

00:21:43.100 I actually co-sponsored legislation that would prevent Mueller from being fired without cause.

00:21:48.300 Yeah, what the heck were you thinking there?

00:21:49.600 Well, just to tell Trump, what the hell are you thinking?

00:21:52.520 I understand. 0.99

00:21:53.040 You know, if you fire this guy, you're dead.

00:21:55.040 And I thought Mueller would be fair, but this whole process has not been fair.

00:22:00.600 So I could say, listen, guys, it's not like I think the president's beyond being looked at.

00:22:05.860 What they did in the House is dangerous to the country.

00:22:08.660 It's a partisan impeachment, no due process, and we need to end it the right way.

00:22:13.360 Do not make it worse.

00:22:14.780 And what would make it worse is to do what Ted said, put the court in the crosshairs of history in the wrong way.

00:22:20.640 And what would make it worse is to to let them go to send a calling a witness that wouldn't matter because they think we're unfair.

00:22:28.620 You've done nothing wrong here. It was the other side who did something wrong.

00:22:33.000 Well, and as a consequence, John Roberts is not in a position where he has to make any controversial rulings where they get where he's being set up to be attacked as being political.

00:22:43.460 He simply he presided over a fair trial and it was the senators who voted.

00:22:48.140 And look, we're elected to make policy decisions and political decisions and also to apply the constitutional standard.

00:22:55.580 And that's what we did.

00:22:56.840 In some way, it feels like we dodged a bullet if it were a 50-50 vote.

00:23:00.040 Oh, you have no idea.

00:23:00.580 No, you dodged a truck.

00:23:04.100 Yeah, because really, just play it out.

00:23:06.600 We call witnesses, then you're not just going to call John Bolton.

00:23:11.280 You're going to have the whistleblower.

00:23:13.380 It's going to be a nightmare for the country.

00:23:15.220 You have all kind of issues decided by the Senate, should be decided by the courts.

00:23:19.400 And you would set a precedent that I think would make impeachment of every president in the future almost a certainty.

00:23:25.200 And it seemed actually in some of the arguments we heard during the trial that there was a threat there or an acknowledgement that if we continue down this path, we're going to impeach every president from now on.

00:23:35.620 Well, and that remains a real risk that that we've opened the door to.

00:23:39.900 So how do you stop that if the House loses?

00:23:42.880 And one of the reasons they lost is because they've gone crazy.

00:23:45.780 Donald Trump's changed the Republican Party, but he's driven the Democratic Party completely nuts.

00:23:51.060 Hey, I'm Ruby Carr, the host of the podcast Encore.

00:23:54.120 Check out our brand new episodes featuring music from the show that everyone is reheating as we speak.

00:24:00.340 Heated Rivalry.

00:24:01.660 Join me as I go behind the songs that brought Shane and Elia together.

00:24:05.260 I'll tell you the stories of Feist, My Moon, My Man, Wolf Parades, I'll Believe in Anything.

00:24:09.900 and tattoos all the things she said

00:24:12.060 and how they all became a part of this global phenomenon.

00:24:15.500 Stream Encore on iHeartRadio, Crave, or wherever you get your podcasts.

00:24:20.940 Why should you listen to Armstrong and Getty on demand?

00:24:24.420 We're not boring.

00:24:25.400 A lot of news is boring.

00:24:26.380 And tedious.

00:24:27.260 And depressing.

00:24:27.860 And makes you angry.

00:24:29.220 You don't want to live your life like that.

00:24:31.500 Hey, I'm Jack Armstrong.

00:24:32.560 He's Joe Getty.

00:24:33.200 We're Armstrong and Getty.

00:24:34.320 We try to bring you the truth

00:24:35.380 and help you figure out this crazy modern world.

00:24:37.740 How about something about a comedic tone?

00:24:39.900 we have a winner yes listen to armstrong and getty on demand on the iheart radio app apple

00:24:48.200 podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts what god started in my life he's going to finish the

00:24:53.940 joel osteen daily podcast surely goodness and mercy will follow me all the days of my life

00:24:59.420 what was meant for my harm lord i want to thank you right now you're turning to my advantage your

00:25:04.680 daily source of hope and encouragement. Your second wind is on its way. God is about to breathe

00:25:11.500 on your life in a new way. Listen to the Joel Osteen Daily Podcast on the iHeartRadio app,

00:25:17.340 Apple Podcasts, and wherever you get your favorite podcasts.

00:25:21.340 This episode is brought to you by Navy Federal Credit Union. At Navy Federal, they want you to

00:25:26.780 know that if you need a positive sign towards achieving your goal of home ownership, this is it.

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00:25:57.860 What would happen if President Trump gets reelected? That's exoneration.

00:26:01.680 Well, and let me underscore that, because that's a very good point.

00:26:05.040 I actually think Bill Clinton helped keep Barack Obama from getting impeached.

00:26:10.180 How so?

00:26:10.660 Now, why is that?

00:26:11.760 Republicans impeached Bill Clinton. 1.00

00:26:14.020 And actually, Lindsey was one of the managers.

00:26:15.260 I was one of the managers.

00:26:16.080 That's right.

00:26:16.820 Don't try this at home.

00:26:18.520 Okay.

00:26:18.860 And it backfired.

00:26:20.200 It hurt Republicans.

00:26:21.800 It got Bill Clinton reelected.

00:26:23.380 It didn't work.

00:26:24.720 And a lot of Republicans took that message.

00:26:26.500 Hey, wait a second.

00:26:27.360 And being seen, being too partisan, too aggressive, using impeachment, that's a problem.

00:26:33.220 And so when it came to Obama, look, Obama, on the abuse of power theory that we've heard from the House managers, Obama abused his power in many respects.

00:26:41.980 And yet all of us agreed we shouldn't be impeaching Obama.

00:26:45.680 We should beat him at the ballot box, which we tried to do.

00:26:48.160 But impeachment wasn't the right tool.

00:26:50.040 if if Republicans hadn't gotten burned so bad on the Clinton impeachment. Right. There would

00:26:55.800 have been some loud voices to impeach Obama. But as it was, people said, let's not go down that

00:27:00.540 road. So if you want to stop partisan impeachments going forward the best way. And Lindsay, you're

00:27:05.960 right. I hadn't thought about it and connected it like this. The best way to stop it is is for

00:27:10.700 Democrats to get walloped in November, because then the next Democrats will say, OK, wow, this

00:27:16.800 this impeaching business and by the way the republicans will too well you know we still

00:27:21.600 remember okay lamar asked a question what's the partisan difference between nixon clinton and

00:27:28.100 trump uh a lot a little none a lot of bipartisanship for nixon yeah that's the kind of

00:27:36.380 thing the founders had in mind yeah you know this is a constitutional death penalty for a politician

00:27:41.820 and you should use it sparingly.

00:27:43.860 Clinton had 33 Democrats say, let's look at it, bipartisan impeachment. 1.00

00:27:48.140 And Clinton basically cheated Paula Jones out of her day in court, 1.00

00:27:53.140 hid evidence, perjury, you name it. 1.00

00:27:55.620 You can't have the most powerful person in the country

00:27:58.160 to destroy a private citizen's right to have their day in court.

00:28:01.940 Now, here we are with Trump, bipartisan rejection of the articles of impeachment.

00:28:07.460 And I think that bothered Lamar, the way it was done,

00:28:10.940 and the outcome in the House, we don't want to be part of it.

00:28:13.500 Actually, both of us joined with Lamar on a question on exactly that.

00:28:16.900 Lamar really rose to the occasion.

00:28:18.740 Because what you're saying is there was a bipartisan rejection of impeachment.

00:28:22.260 But in terms of the people who actually voted for impeachment,

00:28:24.480 it was the first time in U.S. history you had a purely partisan impeachment.

00:28:29.360 Yeah, and I hope it's the last.

00:28:31.220 See, Clinton was in his second term.

00:28:33.780 Nixon resigned.

00:28:35.120 If Trump wins, he'll be the first person impeached in his first term to get reelected.

00:28:40.360 that will exonerate him now i want to know obviously the the impeachment hearings have

00:28:45.260 been so dreary and tedious and i it's gonna be kidding me it's i know you'll be shocked

00:28:50.060 i admitted you're watching this podcast you're loving this well the podcast may be c-span i

00:28:56.000 don't know although actually people listen to this because they can't watch c-span for 13 hours

00:29:00.440 and it makes their eyes and ears bleed but this way this is somewhere between c-span and the trial

00:29:06.660 was there any moment that was that had some levity to it but some foibles some i think the

00:29:15.560 funniest moment was last night the very last of the questions 16 hours of questions amy klobuchar

00:29:21.180 submits the last question sends the card down number one she sends the wrong card down yeah so

00:29:25.120 the chief doesn't read it she realizes she screwed up she has to run down and write her name on the

00:29:29.220 car so that starts off oh it's not not cracking up at that yeah and it's not that hard you literally

00:29:36.400 Write your name on it.

00:29:37.960 You know, kindergarten, first day of school.

00:29:38.900 They're not tricking you here.

00:29:40.240 Okay, we're putting the next to that.

00:29:40.840 I did it three times, and I didn't screw up.

00:29:43.120 You know, put your name on the top.

00:29:45.120 Block letters.

00:29:45.800 I think she was thinking about Iowa.

00:29:47.280 Maybe she wasn't paying attention.

00:29:48.700 So, Phil, this is a good one.

00:29:50.140 Keep going.

00:29:50.520 So, her question was, would the house managers give a closing argument?

00:29:55.120 So, Adam Schiff stands up.

00:29:56.600 You see him kind of puff out his chest.

00:29:58.060 He starts walking forward.

00:29:59.860 And Jerry Nadler, who's sitting like four seats behind him, runs behind him, pushes Schiff out of the way,

00:30:05.660 and goes to the microphone.

00:30:08.020 And Schiff is literally going, Jerry, Jerry, Jerry.

00:30:11.380 And he stands there behind Nadler.

00:30:15.640 I mean, glaring. 0.97

00:30:17.280 He wanted to punch or strangle him.

00:30:20.420 These are the two House Democrat impeachment managers.

00:30:23.000 They're the leads.

00:30:24.720 And Nadler just went and gave his closing arguments.

00:30:27.040 And Schiff stood there for a good 10 seconds.

00:30:29.360 And then he just sat down and glared at Nadler the whole time.

00:30:34.060 And by the way, Roberts, he had his reading glasses on the tip of his nose.

00:30:38.600 And I've known John Roberts 25 years.

00:30:41.780 You saw a slight smile, which for him is cracking up laughing.

00:30:45.500 Because they almost had a fist fight.

00:30:47.160 This man has never smiled in his life.

00:30:50.360 He's actually wickedly funny.

00:30:52.260 I'll tell you.

00:30:53.600 I know John.

00:30:55.840 You're right.

00:30:56.260 He's a brilliant man.

00:30:56.700 That is some breaking news.

00:30:57.760 And he is in his own way.

00:30:58.940 Mitch McConnell's funny in his own way.

00:31:01.360 So here's the deal.

00:31:03.080 Well, Jerry's wife is sick.

00:31:04.460 Let's pray for it.

00:31:05.760 She's got pancreatic cancer.

00:31:08.240 Now I'm praying for Jerry.

00:31:09.140 I've known him for a long time.

00:31:10.180 But Jerry can throw a punch.

00:31:11.580 He can take a punch.

00:31:12.680 So number one, shift.

00:31:14.100 If Jerry Nadler's out running, you need to get in better shape.

00:31:18.060 But the deal is it was just shocking.

00:31:22.680 And we were all pulling for Nadler to win the race.

00:31:26.000 We'd heard enough of shift.

00:31:27.140 So shift started good.

00:31:28.860 But after about 30 hours of shift, you're ready to turn the channel.

00:31:31.860 You know it's bad when people want to hear Nadler and not ship.

00:31:36.940 So the bottom line here is the classic story, and I know we've got to go,

00:31:42.140 because y'all got to do whatever you do in a podcast world.

00:31:47.480 Senator, is this your first podcast?

00:31:48.540 Don't drink and drive.

00:31:49.840 So here's the deal.

00:31:51.380 It's flip-flown.

00:31:52.140 So Chuck Schumer, trying to be clever.

00:31:56.340 Sometimes he is.

00:31:57.340 Sometimes we all fall short in this business.

00:32:00.040 He invites, he gives his ticket to be a spectator at the trial to Parnas. 1.00

00:32:07.100 This is this corrupt Ukrainian guy. 1.00

00:32:09.420 Yeah, this crooked-as-snake guy. 1.00

00:32:12.060 In the Ukraine, he said, I'm in on it.

00:32:15.100 Lindsey Graham knew it all.

00:32:16.680 And they said, have you ever talked to Lindsey Graham?

00:32:18.360 No, but I heard he knew it all.

00:32:20.320 So I don't know it all.

00:32:23.400 So they invite him to come.

00:32:25.200 He shows up to get his ticket.

00:32:26.740 He can't get in because he's got an anklet bracelet from the court.

00:32:32.560 You can't make this one up.

00:32:34.760 That is, you know, I almost wish the impeachment.

00:32:37.300 Schumer's guest can't come into the trial because he's got an ankle bracelet.

00:32:40.560 That's par for the course.

00:32:41.220 Well, you know, State of the Union, I heard Schumer's bringing Charles Manson.

00:32:45.180 That'd be good.

00:32:46.200 That'd be interesting if the guys did.

00:32:47.960 So anyway, I've never done this before.

00:32:50.680 If you're number two in the podcast world, you need to up your game.

00:32:54.500 Because this is number one.

00:32:55.680 Apparently, we're number one.

00:32:57.380 I know that.

00:33:00.640 I'll take that as a compliment.

00:33:02.260 Maybe.

00:33:04.420 You know, speaking of, we've got to get you out of here because the senators are off.

00:33:08.040 You get a couple of days off now.

00:33:09.960 We are union.

00:33:11.040 We're done by night.

00:33:12.440 I'm headed to Texas.

00:33:13.700 Heading to Texas.

00:33:14.820 Senator Graham, you're done as well.

00:33:16.100 I'm going to South Carolina.

00:33:17.160 One last story.

00:33:17.940 You know, the two guys that led the LMO, both of them are from South Carolina.

00:33:22.540 What does that mean?

00:33:23.140 We'll go a long way for a lost cause.

00:33:25.700 And I was an impeachment manager.

00:33:28.440 Texas heroes.

00:33:29.000 I would love Texas heroes.

00:33:30.360 God bless Texas.

00:33:31.280 But Henry and I was giving us the old, take the hill, boys.

00:33:34.580 We're going to go over the Senate.

00:33:36.240 We're going to stand for truth, justice in the American way.

00:33:40.060 You know, the brave men and women at the Alamo, you know, they stood their ground.

00:33:46.180 And, you know, that's our charge.

00:33:48.840 That's our charter.

00:33:49.600 I said, hey, Henry, didn't they all get killed? 0.96

00:33:51.440 And he says, that's something I ignored, but it's a good point.

00:33:56.120 But he did say, we're still talking about him to this day.

00:33:59.260 It's true.

00:34:00.120 And a final point wrapping up.

00:34:01.960 There will be another bombshell.

00:34:03.700 There will be another.

00:34:04.260 Between now and Wednesday.

00:34:05.500 Kavanaugh times two.

00:34:06.740 I promise you something else is coming between now and the verdict on impeachment that will be voted on on Wednesday.

00:34:14.340 There'll be another bombshell.

00:34:15.520 In the New York Times, probably, but something else is coming.

00:34:18.360 Because when I saw it today, I just thought, okay, it's over, right?

00:34:22.100 I don't need to worry about it anymore.

00:34:23.520 You're saying a lot.

00:34:24.760 They're not done.

00:34:25.140 We both were on Kavanaugh, and you asked what's next.

00:34:28.060 After this, we're going to ask some hard questions, State Department.

00:34:30.920 Why didn't you understand this conflict of interest?

00:34:33.340 Why didn't you do something about it?

00:34:35.240 We're going to get to the bottom of the Pfizer-Warrant abuse.

00:34:37.660 We're going to do all that stuff.

00:34:39.260 By the way, this is breaking news.

00:34:40.840 Yeah.

00:34:41.100 We cannot live in a country.

00:34:42.960 Because a lot of questions in the mailbag, people are asking, are we going to get to the bottom?

00:34:47.220 Not because I actually like Joe Biden.

00:34:50.300 I've traveled the world with him.

00:34:51.920 But, you know, if it had been Mike Pence or Vice President Cheney, they'd be all over.

00:34:56.500 We can't live in a world where just one side gets looked at.

00:34:59.420 I don't have any animosity in my heart toward anyone.

00:35:03.220 But the truth of the matter is you've got to have a country where the rules matter for everybody, not just President Trump.

00:35:09.380 I mean, not for Democrats.

00:35:11.720 President Trump, from the day he took office to now, has gone through hell.

00:35:15.360 His family's gone through hell.

00:35:16.600 And I promise you, to those who care, we're going to get to the bottom of Burisma because it's important we find out about Burisma.

00:35:23.540 We're going to find out how could you issue a warrant four times against an American citizen.

00:35:27.960 Here's the world.

00:35:28.940 If Trump goes to a Russian restaurant to have dinner, he's a Russian. 0.53

00:35:33.740 And you can have $3 million paid to your son in the Ukraine and nobody cares. 0.71

00:35:39.200 Now, if President Trump gets acquitted, you're saying the Senate Republicans are not going to give up on this.

00:35:43.940 What can be done to get to the bottom of?

00:35:46.980 Jim Rich is chairman of the Foreign Relations Committee.

00:35:49.360 The first witness I want to call is John Kerry's chief of staff.

00:35:52.540 When you were told that there was a conflict of interest by John Kerry's stepson, who was their business partner, why didn't you do something about it?

00:36:00.220 And last I checked, both you and I are on foreign relations.

00:36:02.980 Last time I checked, we're on judiciary and we're on foreign relations.

00:36:07.480 This is the beginning of a day of reckoning.

00:36:11.000 this is not not the beginning of the end maybe the end of the beginning we're moving on

00:36:15.040 is the end of the podcast and it's the end of the one thing i want to know before we let you get out

00:36:20.660 of here and hop onto a plane one last thing is i noticed it's much earlier tonight usually we're

00:36:26.100 here at two o'clock in the morning it's only 11 o'clock at night why is it that mitch mcconnell

00:36:32.040 that all these senators are letting people get out of here so early was there some uh i think

00:36:37.020 If the Democrats wanted to go to Iowa, that they were jumping to go to Iowa.

00:36:43.540 Did you talk to any of your colleagues?

00:36:45.860 Were they?

00:36:46.960 Well, you know, let's look at it this way.

00:36:49.760 I'm not married.

00:36:51.340 So why can't you get everything done the way you want it?

00:36:54.780 I'll let Ted answer that question.

00:36:56.520 We've got 100 people in the Senate.

00:36:58.420 Everybody has different agendas.

00:37:00.480 But Monday, so Sunday's Super Bowl, right?

00:37:03.700 Monday is the Iowa caucus.

00:37:05.500 Tuesday's the State of the Union.

00:37:07.020 Bottom line is this is the best Mitch could do,

00:37:09.580 and I think Mitch McConnell did a brilliant job handling this.

00:37:12.580 I really do.

00:37:13.280 Bets on the Super Bowl before we go?

00:37:15.160 Look, I'm rooting for the Chiefs just because they beat the Texans,

00:37:18.380 and so on that principle, if they go on to win it all,

00:37:21.140 I get to say the Texans are the second best in my reckoning.

00:37:24.420 Yeah, I'm pulling for the Falcons.

00:37:26.160 There we are.

00:37:26.860 That's our show.

00:37:27.620 That's the final verdict on the Super Bowl.

00:37:29.780 We've got a whole lot more coming up next week.

00:37:31.880 I don't like my chances.

00:37:35.320 I'm Michael Knowles.

00:37:37.020 On behalf of Senator Lindsey Graham, so gracious to spend the night in our bunker over here.

00:37:41.560 Yeah.

00:37:41.920 This is Verdict with Ted Cruz.

00:37:44.020 Senator, I'm so glad that everybody got to watch that podcast, listen to it.

00:37:49.040 If you didn't get to watch it, you can on YouTube.

00:37:50.980 If you're listening, this is an audio podcast right now.

00:37:54.160 You don't realize when you guys were taping that, what a blessing it was going to be to have that video and those really fun moments.

00:38:00.900 But also just to remember what a fighter he was and how you guys became good friends.

00:38:04.980 He had a profound impact. Without Lindsey Graham, I don't know that Brett Kavanaugh ever gets

00:38:11.480 confirmed to the Supreme Court. I don't know that we get the reconciliation bill passed. I don't

00:38:17.380 know that President Trump has anywhere near the number of successes he's had without Lindsey

00:38:23.840 Graham. And so that podcast, you're right, when we were doing it, I didn't realize that there

00:38:29.240 would come a time when he wasn't with us. To be honest, if we were going to have a guest for a

00:38:34.720 second time on verdict. Lindsey would have been right at the top of the list, and we're not going

00:38:41.200 to have the chance to do that, but I will say I miss my friend, and thank you, Lindsey. Thank you

00:38:47.820 for the legacy you left for America. Why didn't you listen to Armstrong and Getty On Demand?

00:38:52.900 We're not boring. A lot of news is boring. And tedious. And depressing. And makes you angry.

00:38:57.820 You don't want to live your life like that. Hey, I'm Jack Armstrong. He's Joe Getty. We're

00:39:01.960 Armstrong and Getty. We try to bring you the truth

00:39:03.980 and help you figure out this crazy modern

00:39:05.960 world. How about something about a comedic tone?

00:39:10.940 We have a winner.

00:39:12.480 Yes. Listen to Armstrong

00:39:14.100 and Getty on demand on the iHeartRadio

00:39:16.320 app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever

00:39:17.960 you get your podcasts. What God

00:39:20.120 started in my life, he's going to finish.

00:39:22.440 The Joel Osteen Daily Podcast.

00:39:24.560 Surely goodness and mercy

00:39:25.960 will follow me all the days of my life.

00:39:28.380 What was meant for my harm, Lord,

00:39:30.080 I want to thank you right now. You're turning to my advantage. Your daily source of hope and

00:39:35.200 encouragement. Your second wind is on its way. God is about to breathe on your life in a new way.

00:39:42.000 Listen to the Joel Osteen Daily Podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

00:39:46.980 and wherever you get your favorite podcasts. This episode is brought to you by Navy Federal

00:39:52.320 Credit Union. At Navy Federal, they want you to know that if you need a positive sign towards

00:39:57.420 achieving your goal of home ownership, this is it. Because even though today's housing market

00:40:02.240 may seem discouraging, the Home Buyer's Choice Loan offers members down payment options as low

00:40:07.120 as 0% with no required private mortgage insurance. Look for your sign today. Navy Federal Credit

00:40:13.280 Union. Navy Federal is insured by NCUA. Equal housing lender. Terms and conditions apply.

00:40:18.240 Loans subject to approval and eligibility requirements. Learn more at navyfederal.org

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Verdict with Ted Cruz - July 15, 2026

Lindsey Graham Guest-Hosts Verdict Flashback

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