Verdict with Ted Cruz - Now It's Our Turn

00:00:00.000 This is an iHeart Podcast.

00:00:02.340 Guaranteed human.

00:00:04.160 On Monday, President Trump's legal team will finally get to present the president's affirmative defense.

00:00:11.380 Here's what I would argue.

00:00:13.220 For 24 hours, House managers devoted hour upon hour to proving two factual propositions.

00:00:21.200 Number one, that the president temporarily delayed military aid to Ukraine.

00:00:26.080 And number two, that President Trump sought an investigation into Burisma, the Ukrainian natural gas company, and a corruption potentially involving Vice President Joe Biden and his son, Hunter Biden.

00:00:39.460 On those two points, they devoted more than half of their argument, arguing ad nauseum with sight after sight and clip after clip.

00:00:49.820 Both of those points are undisputed.

00:00:52.580 Both of those points, everyone admits there is no dispute that the military aid was delayed, and there is no dispute that the president sought an investigation into Burisma.

00:01:04.240 Indeed, he has said so on national television multiple times.

00:01:08.840 Neither of those factual propositions are impeachable offenses.

00:01:13.720 In fact, neither of those propositions are remotely contrary to law.

00:01:17.920 Presidents have the authority and regularly have temporarily delayed foreign aid in circumstances where they had concerns.

00:01:26.540 And when it comes to investigating corruption, a president has the authority and the responsibility to investigate serious claims of corruption.

00:01:37.980 During their 24-hour opening argument, the Democrats built their case on the proposition that it was utterly fraudulent, that it was completely baseless, that there was no evidence to seek an investigation into Burisma and corruption.

00:01:54.240 That proposition is laughable because not only was there sufficient evidence to seek an investigation into Burisma and corruption, there was so much evidence that there was a need, a legitimate need to investigate.

00:02:10.560 And that need remains today.

00:02:11.780 That corruption or potential corruption still needs to be investigated today.

00:02:16.620 And from there, the Trump lawyers should calmly, coolly, systematically walk through the mountains of evidence that raise major red flags, that raise major concerns about corruption, about the sitting vice president bragging about blocking a billion dollars in aid to Ukraine,

00:02:39.520 until they fire the prosecutor who is investigating the company that is paying his own son a million bucks a year.

00:02:49.240 The White House team should calmly, systematically prosecute that case.

00:02:55.820 That's a pretty good argument.

00:02:57.680 This is Verdict with Ted Cruz.

00:03:04.400 Welcome back to the show.

00:03:05.760 I'm Michael Knowles.

00:03:07.000 Well, congratulations to you.

00:03:36.440 And I got to say to all the listeners, it is a testament.

00:03:39.780 Look, I think there are a lot of folks in this country who care about substance and issues.

00:03:45.300 And so much of what you get on TV, so much of what you get of talking heads is just people yelling at each other and doing sound bites.

00:03:52.680 And I think people are interested in really trying to understand an issue, knowing facts, knowing con law.

00:03:58.420 Look, as you know, Michael, we've talked with our team putting this together.

00:04:01.160 And occasionally there's some discussion of, well, maybe we ought to dumb things down and then not actually get into complicated things.

00:04:07.220 But look, I think people are interested in understanding.

00:04:11.260 They don't have a million hours to dive in and drown in it, but they're interested in understanding issues.

00:04:16.080 And I hope that this show now and going forward helps people really understand an issue and what's behind it and what you need to know to know what's going on.

00:04:24.620 Of course, people are so much smarter than they get credit for.

00:04:27.340 I think people are interested and no one's going to watch 20 hours a day of these extremely tedious impeachment trials.

00:04:34.620 But you've broken it down well.

00:04:36.300 And the argument you just made is pretty interesting because basically what you're saying is, yes, on the basic facts that the Democrats laid out, we all agree it's not impeachable whatsoever.

00:04:46.960 At the heart of this impeachment investigation is this potential corruption in Ukraine with the Bidens.

00:04:52.660 And then the Trump team should just talk about that.

00:04:54.680 But the big Trump argument is going to really begin on Monday in prime time when maybe some people are paying attention.

00:05:02.420 But today you had a little, what, two-hour session.

00:05:04.700 Today we had about two hours.

00:05:06.040 The Trump team tees up their arguments.

00:05:09.200 You've come straight from the Capitol, straight from the impeachment trial.

00:05:12.020 What's your reaction?

00:05:13.020 Look, I think for the two hours they did a good job of refuting some of the points that the House managers made and pointing out in particular all the things they left out.

00:05:23.160 So they did an effective job of saying they showed you this clip from witness one, two, or three.

00:05:28.860 But what they didn't show you is what they said next.

00:05:31.460 And there were lots of good examples where they'd go to the video.

00:05:35.380 And you could see senators kind of nodding.

00:05:37.700 I think that's what the Trump lawyers did most effectively today is say, well, gosh, why didn't the House managers tell you that?

00:05:44.160 And they pointed that out quite a bit.

00:05:46.660 I think that was helpful for undermining confidence in the whole body of what the House managers presented over the last three days.

00:05:55.100 So I couldn't see senators nodding because I was not there.

00:05:57.940 But you saw that.

00:05:59.240 I guess because it's so pivotal today, because now the Democrat case is over, the Trump case begins.

00:06:06.080 If the Trump lawyers are saying, here's what the Democrats told you, but here's what they left out, what you're saying is that the Democrat arguments were deceptive.

00:06:17.920 Yes, they were.

00:06:20.300 And they were deceptive using lots of different tools.

00:06:23.780 You know, all right.

00:06:25.140 Here's a particular logical construct that the House managers used to be deceptive.

00:06:31.020 They used this several times, and it's a logical construct of X, not Y.

00:06:37.900 So, for example, let me explain what that means.

00:06:41.420 They say, for example, that President Trump and Republicans bought the narrative that Ukraine and not Russia interfered in the 2016 election.

00:06:55.740 Now, in that model, X is right.

00:06:59.560 Ukraine did interfere in 2016.

00:07:01.980 The lie, the deception, is the not Y. 0.95

00:07:06.180 So when they say Ukraine, not Russia, look, it is obvious Russia tried to interfere in 2016, did interfere in 2016, invested real money, had a team of people pushing out fraudulent material online.

00:07:20.360 That happened. That was real. And anyone who looks at the evidence recognizes that.

00:07:27.400 But the fact that Russia did doesn't mean no other country did.

00:07:31.980 So the way they frame it, and you'll see they do this all the time, that they say they push the fraudulent theory that Ukraine and not Russia interfered.

00:07:41.020 Here's another way they do it.

00:07:42.140 So it's true that the Republicans are saying Ukraine interfered, but it's not true that Republicans are also saying, therefore, Russia did not interfere.

00:07:54.000 And it would be false.

00:07:55.020 If we said Russia did not interfere, that's a false statement.

00:07:58.240 Russia did interfere, but they're using that construct to deceive you.

00:08:02.160 I'll give you another example they've used about President Trump wanting an investigation into Biden and into Burisma.

00:08:10.300 What the House manager said over and over and over again is the president wanted the announcement of an investigation and not an actual investigation.

00:08:22.620 X and not Y.

00:08:25.260 So there's lots of evidence.

00:08:26.940 Trump wanted an investigation announced.

00:08:30.200 Right.

00:08:30.320 There is zero evidence that Trump didn't want an actual investigation.

00:08:35.680 And the House managers assert it over and over and over again.

00:08:38.920 On an announcement and not an actual investigation, they've never cited any evidence whatsoever.

00:08:44.240 And by the way, think about it.

00:08:45.520 In what universe would Trump not want an investigation?

00:08:48.480 I mean, he's calling for investigate this.

00:08:51.440 This is corrupt. 0.99

00:08:52.360 It stinks. 0.97

00:08:53.060 Investigate it.

00:08:53.880 And the hook that they use is they have one witness's testimony that Trump wanted to put the president of Ukraine in a, quote, public box.

00:09:07.700 And they say, aha, that proves all he cared about was the announcement.

00:09:12.020 It was just political for domestic consumption.

00:09:14.980 Public box.

00:09:15.700 Ha ha.

00:09:16.060 We prove he wanted an announcement and not an actual investigation.

00:09:20.660 Well, what utter nonsense?

00:09:22.420 Why else might you want to put Zelensky in a public box?

00:09:25.960 The president of Ukraine.

00:09:27.640 Maybe because Ukraine has had a long history of corruption. 0.85

00:09:30.580 They've been unwilling to go after Burisma.

00:09:32.560 They've been afraid to do it.

00:09:33.600 I'll tell you, you do it all the time.

00:09:34.880 If someone is reluctant to do something, one of the best ways to get them to do it is I don't want you just to secretly commit to me.

00:09:41.780 Wink, wink, nudge, nudge.

00:09:42.740 You've got to be on the record.

00:09:44.420 Stand up and say you'll do it publicly because the chances of you're following through are much higher.

00:09:48.680 So the Democrats' trick here is that they're making a true statement and they're using the true statement to cover up for the false statement that they say immediately afterward.

00:09:59.200 So if you – yes, and if you hear the Democrats, if you're – the media does this all the time.

00:10:03.300 The media loves doing the you're saying Ukraine and not Russia interfered.

00:10:09.080 No, no, that's not what we're saying.

00:10:12.080 Right.

00:10:12.260 That logical construct, X and not Y, is a real giveaway that they're engaging in lawyerly sleight of hand.

00:10:20.940 That is – you know, I would not have picked up on that.

00:10:23.780 Obviously, I've been hearing it.

00:10:25.080 Like you used the example that President Trump wanted the announcement of an investigation into the Bidens, but he didn't want an actual investigation.

00:10:35.340 And does that make any sense?

00:10:36.520 If you think about it for five seconds, it makes no sense.

00:10:38.640 Picture that from the other side.

00:10:39.980 So imagine someone saying Democrats wanted the announcement of the Mueller investigation, but they didn't actually want the Mueller investigation to happen. 0.99

00:10:48.920 Are you frigging nuts? 0.98

00:10:50.300 Like it's – 0.99

00:10:52.400 They want the announcement and the investigation. 0.85

00:10:54.540 It's a ludicrous proposition.

00:10:56.880 And yet they say it – and by the way, Adam Schiff says it very smoothly. 0.71

00:11:00.240 He says it's smiling.

00:11:01.440 And to date, I haven't seen anyone actually contradicting it and pointing out that half of that sentence is –

00:11:10.380 It's crazy.

00:11:11.380 Total deception.

00:11:12.500 Right.

00:11:12.860 That's an incredibly deceptive trick.

00:11:17.180 And it's so deceptive that even – look, I've been paying close attention to this.

00:11:20.000 There's a reason lawyers are so beloved.

00:11:21.640 The most popular people in the country.

00:11:25.380 Well, speaking of the most popular people in the country, I want to pivot a little bit here because you've now had this impeachment trial go on and on and on.

00:11:35.400 In the 2020 election, we're now nine days out from the Iowa caucuses, right?

00:11:39.800 This is the first big event of the presidential primary campaign.

00:11:43.200 But you've got three Democratic senators who are stuck in Washington, D.C., in the impeachment trial, running for president.

00:11:50.260 Well, and it's driving them bat crap crazy.

00:11:52.800 Although, actually, technically, I have to correct you.

00:11:55.080 Technically, we have four Democratic senators. 0.99

00:11:57.080 Well, there's Bernie, there's Warren, and there's Amy Klobuchar.

00:12:02.000 And nobody remembers Michael Bennett from Colorado is also still theoretically running.

00:12:07.480 Is he –

00:12:07.880 As far as I know, he's in the race.

00:12:10.340 The only reason I pointed out is he launched his campaign.

00:12:14.720 Literally, the whole basis for his campaign is a few months ago he stood on the Senate floor and screamed at me.

00:12:20.440 And his launch campaign email, like what he talked about in the email launching his presidential campaign, is I yelled at Ted Cruz on the Senate floor.

00:12:30.040 And I've got to say, I'm actually kind of a little offended that apparently yelling at me is not even worth a percent point in the Democratic primary for president.

00:12:39.640 I have to say, this is a little embarrassing for me that I did not know that he was still running.

00:12:44.780 It is more embarrassing for him, but I digress.

00:12:48.200 Look, all of them are losing their minds not to be there.

00:12:51.480 I mean, it was – you can see them, like during the trial, there'd be periods where each of them would be up in the back, and they'd be kind of pacing back and forth on the Senate floor.

00:13:00.820 Well, you have an interesting perspective here because you know a thing or two about winning the Iowa caucuses.

00:13:07.240 You won in 2016 there.

00:13:10.320 This is the first big, real event when people are going to the voting booth.

00:13:15.400 So it's going to set the tone for the rest of the primary.

00:13:17.920 Look, they're dying not to be there.

00:13:19.380 Yeah.

00:13:19.540 After the trial ended last night, actually Amy Klobuchar and I were visiting.

00:13:25.140 She and I are friends, and she was – I don't want to pull an Elizabeth Warren and repeat things that were said to me in confidence or not said to me in confidence.

00:13:37.660 I won't get into what Bernie and Elizabeth said to each other.

00:13:40.080 But I think I can fairly say that Amy was chomping at the bit to run out and get on a plane and head back to Iowa. 1.00

00:13:48.720 And she did tell me – we were talking about surrogates – and she did say she has a surrogate in Iowa who is, I think, a collegiate curling champion.

00:13:58.020 Curling, that's the one where it looks like people are mopping the floor.

00:14:01.280 Yeah, like the broom in front of the rock.

00:14:03.600 Look, I'm from Houston, so we don't have snow or ice.

00:14:06.140 So – but it strikes me as a very Midwest thing to have the collegiate curling champion as apparently a surrogate.

00:14:13.120 That's a big deal.

00:14:14.860 You know, a really big deal that just came out of Iowa.

00:14:17.280 There's a poll now that puts your colleague Bernie Sanders at the top of the pack there.

00:14:22.300 Now, outside the margin of error, he is a clear – he's clearly in the lead right now.

00:14:28.780 I think that's right.

00:14:29.900 And there's also a poll out of New Hampshire that has him in the lead there.

00:14:32.660 And I think that has a lot of Democrats scared out of their mind.

00:14:38.840 There are an awful lot of Democrats who I think think if Bernie gets the nomination, it reelects Donald Trump, which is obviously not what Democrats are looking to do.

00:14:49.620 You know, it's interesting.

00:14:52.940 Two nights ago at dinner when we were on the dinner break, several of us Republican senators were sitting there having dinner, and one of the senators observed – laid out a theory that the reason the House managers had thrown Joe Biden under the bus,

00:15:13.580 had put so much of an argument on Burisma and Hunter Biden that it ensures that a big part of the Trump legal team's argument on Monday will be here's all the evidence of corruption of Joe Biden and Hunter Biden and Burisma.

00:15:26.680 Well, you mentioned this the other night that one of the big takeaways from the Democratic impeachment argument is they were just throwing their nominal presidential frontrunner, Joe Biden, right under the bus.

00:15:36.500 Well, one of my Republican colleagues laid out a theory at dinner that the Democratic superdelegates had soured on Joe Biden.

00:15:45.100 So in the – for people who have not paid close attention to this very corrupt system that the Democrats have to pick their presidential nominee, there are delegates.

00:15:53.760 So you win a state and you get delegates, you know, if you win the state.

00:15:57.100 But there are also superdelegates who are these kind of party elites that get to pick whoever they want.

00:16:02.720 And let me explain it more simply. Look, the Democrats are statists. They're the party of elitists.

00:16:08.640 They're the party of concentrated power dictating and controlling your life.

00:16:12.800 Right.

00:16:13.520 It's reflected in a lot of things about the Democrats. One of the things that's reflected are these superdelegates, these people that have the power in many ways to decide their nominee.

00:16:22.640 There are no Republican superdelegates. Republicans, we believe in this crazy thing called democracy where actually the voters should decide.

00:16:28.520 Go to the polls and pick your candidate.

00:16:29.940 But the Democrats have something like 900 superdelegates that are the party elite.

00:16:35.020 And you've got to remember, look, these are people that are very comfortable with saying every decision in your life government should make for you.

00:16:42.680 And so having the party elite control nominations, I mean, look, those superdelegates played a big part in taking Bernie out last time and making Hillary the nominee.

00:16:52.300 So your your Senate colleague who shall remain nameless unless you want to make some news right now.

00:16:58.220 I will honor that confidentiality. But I don't know that the theory is right.

00:17:01.420 But it was a significant topic of discussion around the dinner table that that if that if the if the Democratic superdelegates have soured on Biden.

00:17:11.540 Right. That manifesting this by putting him in a maelstrom where he goes down.

00:17:18.540 Yeah. And presumably you see the self-described Democratic moderates going to, I don't know, Bloomberg or Klobuchar or Buttigieg.

00:17:29.420 I don't know where they go, but they presumably go somewhere.

00:17:32.380 That would be it didn't make any sense to me.

00:17:35.620 And when you said it to me earlier and said they threw Biden under the bus, it didn't make sense to me why the House Democrats would have done that unless it is unless they don't think he can beat Bernie.

00:17:46.180 Exactly. And that he may be too weak.

00:17:49.160 And so I don't know if that's going on or not.

00:17:50.760 Wow. But it was a surprising tactical decision of the House Democrats.

00:17:54.460 And hopefully look when when the Trump legal team puts their case on a lot of lawyers, when they argue a case, particularly when you're responding, they spend their whole time sort of going point by point and refuting.

00:18:07.460 So the other side has 10 points. Let me answer point one with point one a point two with point two a.

00:18:13.740 I actually think that's a terrible way to argue, whether in a court of law or in a court of public opinion, kind of like a tit for tat argument.

00:18:23.460 I think the right way to do it and what I hope that the president's lawyers do on Monday is tell a story, tell a story, lay out an affirmative narrative.

00:18:36.220 I'll give Adam Schiff credit. He told a story. He told a narrative.

00:18:40.220 We need to do the same. And I hope we're not just sitting there going tit for tat and refuting all the points of the Democrats.

00:18:46.560 It's it's it's it's why a few minutes ago where I gave an example of an argument to use on Monday, it's the affirmative case that a president has the authority and the responsibility to investigate serious allegations of corruption.

00:18:58.900 That is fundamentally an explanation. You know, when I was arguing Supreme Court cases, I used to obsess with what's the narrative.

00:19:08.100 And actually, the test I tried to think about is when when the judge or justice went home that night and his or her five year old grandson said, what'd you do at work today, Papa?

00:19:22.240 I wanted to own that next sentence. If I could own the sentence that that judge or justice describes to his or her grandchild.

00:19:36.000 You've won the case that framing the narrative. Sun Tzu says every battle is won before it's fought.

00:19:41.320 It's won by choosing the terrain on which it will be fought. The Democrats are trying to frame the narrative.

00:19:46.280 The Trump team needs to come in and frame the narrative. And I think the strongest ground is, can a president investigate corruption when there is real evidence of corruption?

00:19:55.560 Because if that's the question, then we win. The answer is hell yes. Right.

00:20:00.700 That will be very interesting to watch on Monday, because that is when this is all going to kick off.

00:20:06.180 And I hope hope people take that advice before we go.

00:20:09.320 Obviously, we only have a couple of minutes and we've got to get you on an airplane.

00:20:11.520 I want to get to a couple of mailbag questions. First one from June. June wants gossip.

00:20:17.940 Senator Cruz, what are the other senators saying behind the scenes?

00:20:21.000 Any juicy gossip or are you going to be cautious to your Democrat or to your other colleagues?

00:20:27.160 So yesterday when Adam Schiff did his closing and he rolled out the line that he'd read in CBS that President Trump had said any Republican who votes against him will have their head on a pike.

00:20:39.220 Mm hmm. That pissed a lot of Republicans off. 1.00

00:20:43.480 I mean, I mean, really. Schiff was booed.

00:20:46.280 Huh. I don't know how much of that came across on TV.

00:20:49.480 I couldn't see it. And in particular, he was booed by senators like Susan Collins and Lisa Murkowski who sit next to each other.

00:20:55.960 Senators who are going to be very important if the Democrats want to advance.

00:21:00.140 And they recoiled and in fact, several were murmuring under the breath, their breath.

00:21:04.940 Not true. Not true. And you actually saw Schiff kind of shake it and said, well, I hope it's not true.

00:21:09.920 I hope it's not true. That was an interesting moment that that stuck with people.

00:21:15.660 That is pretty juicy gossip. I think you gave June what she came for from.

00:21:20.160 From from Melody, Senator Cruz, why are the four Democratic senators who are still running for president allowed to be part of the Senate jury?

00:21:30.280 Because the senators are sort of the jury in the impeachment trial.

00:21:33.820 Shouldn't they recuse themselves?

00:21:35.620 It seems like a huge conflict of interest for them to be allowed to vote in the impeachment trial.

00:21:40.200 Well, it's a good question and it is a conflict of interest.

00:21:43.240 But but the answer is that that that we're not jurors in the sense of a typical jury.

00:21:48.420 There are all sorts of things about impeachment that have nothing to do with with being a typical jury.

00:21:54.840 You wouldn't be allowed to sit on a jury if you knew the defendant.

00:21:57.740 You wouldn't be allowed to sit on the jury if you knew the prosecutor.

00:22:00.720 You wouldn't be allowed to sit on the on the jury if if you were having conversations with the defendant or the prosecutor.

00:22:07.600 We're discussing the issue. You wouldn't be allowed to sit on a jury.

00:22:10.040 If you were publicly discussing the issues, if you were taking positions, the Senate is not a jury.

00:22:16.900 In fact, in the Bill Clinton impeachment trial, senators were referred to as jurors and Tom Harkin stood up and objected, said, I object to senators being described as jurors.

00:22:28.980 And Chief Justice Rehnquist upheld that objection because senators are jurors, but also judges and the framers when they wrote the Constitution, they knew that senators would be politicians.

00:22:41.660 They understood that they were they were politicians. They got that. They were reposing in the Senate.

00:22:46.720 They hoped that the Senate you would have leaders of sufficient weight and seriousness and gravitas to consider the issues, to conduct a fair trial.

00:22:56.220 But but they also knew there would be senators running for president. That's not new.

00:23:01.060 That has been true for a long time. Right. And so, yes, they have interest.

00:23:06.000 There are people that have interest on all on all side on all sides.

00:23:09.800 But you're supposed to put that aside and follow the law.

00:23:14.080 And so for me, I've said from the beginning, I believe the president will be acquitted.

00:23:18.820 I think he should be acquitted. But but the reason is my job is to follow the constitutional standard.

00:23:24.760 And the constitutional standard for impeachment is high crimes or misdemeanors.

00:23:28.540 And the House manager's case doesn't meet that standard. Right.

00:23:32.480 It doesn't. Well, then this actually leads into our last question from Tommy.

00:23:36.080 Question from a Canadian. Are there any Democratic senators you believe will vote against impeachment?

00:23:43.880 If so, why? I hope so.

00:23:47.360 I think the most likely senator to vote against impeachment on the Democratic side would be Joe Manchin.

00:23:54.140 He's a senator from West Virginia, from West Virginia. Manchin voted for Brett Kavanaugh.

00:23:58.940 He was the only Democrat to vote for Brett Kavanaugh. Manchin's vote probably got him reelected to the Senate.

00:24:04.960 So he was on the ballot and that vote probably saved his seat.

00:24:09.360 I don't know if Joe will or not. I think he's the most likely.

00:24:12.620 You know, other people have looked to say Doug Jones from Alabama. Alabama is a bright red state.

00:24:19.100 I'll tell you, my gut tells me that Jones will vote to convict, that he doesn't think he's going to win in November.

00:24:24.360 And if he's going to lose, he might as well go out in a blaze of glory and be celebrated by by liberals.

00:24:30.060 We'll see if that's right.

00:24:31.140 Because Doug Jones, he's the guy who beat he's the Democrat who beat the Republican Roy Moore.

00:24:35.520 And there was that whole big scandal in the Moore campaign.

00:24:38.960 So Doug Jones got in, but it doesn't doesn't look very likely he's going to be reelected anyway.

00:24:43.780 It in any ordinary cycle, Alabama should be electing a Republican.

00:24:48.020 That that those are certainly the values of the voters of Alabama.

00:24:51.260 Right. OK, well, maybe there's a chance we get one one Democratic senator to vote for it. 0.86

00:24:56.180 Obviously, some of that is going to rest on the arguments that the Trump legal team makes.

00:25:00.220 And that's all coming up on Monday.

00:25:02.040 So be sure to tune in then. In the meantime, please continue to subscribe and leave those five star reviews.

00:25:07.220 We just I can't tell you how exciting it is that we are now the number one podcast in the country.

00:25:14.280 And equally exciting is to have a senator walk down from the Capitol and give us a behind the scenes look into impeachment.

00:25:20.580 So we'll see you back on Monday. This is Verdict with Ted Cruz.

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Verdict with Ted Cruz - January 25, 2020

Now It's Our Turn

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