Verdict with Ted Cruz - The Bolton Bombshell

00:00:00.000 This is an iHeart Podcast.

00:00:02.440 Guaranteed human.

00:00:04.600 What a day.

00:00:06.460 John Bolton throws impeachment into chaos.

00:00:09.100 President Trump's legal team comes out swinging on their first full day of arguments.

00:00:13.860 And the senator of this very podcast drives at least one journalist completely up a wall.

00:00:20.140 This is Verdict with Ted Cruz.

00:00:21.480 Welcome back to Verdict with Ted Cruz.

00:00:30.920 I'm Michael Knowles.

00:00:32.160 Thank you so much to all of the listeners who have kept this show at the top of the charts.

00:00:37.220 Again now into our second week.

00:00:39.860 What a big day.

00:00:40.740 It started as a crazy day before the impeachment trial even began because of a leak from the new memoir of John Bolton,

00:00:49.460 the former national security advisor, leaked to the New York Times and it alleges that President Trump tied Ukraine aid to an investigation of the Bidens.

00:01:00.260 Quid pro quo.

00:01:01.340 He's guilty as charged.

00:01:02.420 Isn't that right?

00:01:03.380 Well, today was a big and consequential day.

00:01:06.240 And you're right.

00:01:06.780 It started off crazy.

00:01:07.920 We all had off yesterday.

00:01:09.260 So I flew home, was home with my family, then came back to D.C. at the crack of dawn, walked into the Capitol.

00:01:15.560 The press was going nuts.

00:01:16.720 They were in a total tizzy.

00:01:18.220 The New York Times had broken this story that Bolton says there was a quid pro quo.

00:01:23.380 And I got to say, when I sat down at lunch today before we started the trial, there were a lot of Republican senators who were feeling a little rattled by it.

00:01:31.120 I mean, it was designed to shake people up and it had a little bit of that effect.

00:01:36.140 I'm actually somewhat surprised that this shook up Republican senators because the story itself made all of these headlines a big splash.

00:01:44.320 And yet it seems to me, just reading about it, and especially given our previous conversations on how the quid pro quo is not really a big deal, that it's a lot of sizzle and no steak.

00:01:54.540 Well, that's exactly right.

00:01:55.840 And one of the most important things for people to understand, it does not matter if there was a quid pro quo or not.

00:02:04.380 It does not matter.

00:02:05.720 It doesn't make a difference for the issues before the Senate.

00:02:09.060 It's something we talked about last week in our first couple of podcasts.

00:02:12.680 Look, quid pro quo sounds scary.

00:02:14.800 It's a Latin phrase.

00:02:16.160 I don't know what it means, but it sounds really bad.

00:02:18.120 All quid pro quo means is you exchange one thing for another, and this is not an exaggeration.

00:02:23.700 Every president from George Washington to today has done quid pro quos by the hundreds, and foreign policy does it every single day.

00:02:33.580 So whether or not it's a quid pro quo doesn't matter.

00:02:37.040 The question is, did the president commit high crimes and misdemeanors?

00:02:40.300 And a quid pro quo is not, whether it is or not, is not the constitutional standard.

00:02:45.840 So then why is this such a big headline?

00:02:47.700 Because that was my reaction, too.

00:02:48.960 I said, hold on.

00:02:49.540 I got to talk to the senator about this last week.

00:02:51.580 I can see through the headline.

00:02:53.180 Why is everybody making such a big deal about the John Bolton leak?

00:02:57.680 Well, look, part of it was that the defense team on Saturday had some fun pointing out that the evidence was contradictory, whether it was a quid pro quo or not.

00:03:06.540 So they leaned in a little bit, saying there wasn't clear evidence there was a quid pro quo.

00:03:11.620 And so that let the New York Times say, goodness, now we have someone saying there was.

00:03:17.700 It doesn't matter because, look, quid pro quos, Obama's Iran deal is a quid pro quo.

00:03:27.860 Right.

00:03:29.280 Russia sanctions.

00:03:30.400 I just passed last month sanctions on the Nord Stream 2 Russian gas pipeline.

00:03:35.220 If a company builds the pipeline, they get sanctions.

00:03:37.620 That's a quid pro quo.

00:03:38.560 You build the pipeline, you get sanctions.

00:03:40.160 You're admitting to a quid pro quo right now?

00:03:41.900 I and Venezuela sanctions.

00:03:44.600 We're telling Venezuela today that if Nicolas Maduro steps down from Venezuela, we'll lift sanctions.

00:03:49.740 And we do, by the way, carrots and sticks all the time where we'll give you aid, we'll impose sanctions.

00:03:55.560 That's how we conduct foreign policy.

00:03:58.340 So the Bolton leak, the quid pro quo news, that doesn't matter to the argument for impeachment itself.

00:04:03.520 And yet, surely it matters to the impeachment trial because now we're hearing more reports that we could drag this thing out weeks and weeks and finally hear from the witnesses, which the Democrats have been asking for now for weeks.

00:04:17.840 So I think the chances of the Senate hearing witnesses and of the trial being dragged on, those chances have increased.

00:04:24.760 We will vote probably on Friday whether or not additional witnesses will be brought in.

00:04:30.060 All 47 Democrats will vote yes.

00:04:32.300 If four Republicans join them, if 51 Republican, if 51 senators vote yes, then we're going to have additional witnesses.

00:04:39.300 Do you think that those four Republican senators will go over and now vote for the witnesses?

00:04:44.500 You know, I'm not certain about that.

00:04:46.220 I think there are a couple who have been pretty clear they will.

00:04:48.720 I don't know if we get to four.

00:04:50.420 OK.

00:04:50.660 And, you know, one of the striking things, I don't know that I have seen two Senate meals more different than lunch today and dinner today.

00:05:01.280 How so? What's the difference?

00:05:02.640 All right. So lunch today, everyone had just gotten back.

00:05:05.000 They were there.

00:05:05.880 The press was all in a frenzy about John Bolton.

00:05:08.520 We're talking about, oh, got to have witnesses, quid pro quo.

00:05:11.100 Not sure what quid pro quo is.

00:05:12.520 And then we had this afternoon where the Trump defense team finally got to put on their arguments and their evidence.

00:05:21.020 And listen, as you know, I have been begging them, put on systematically, clearly the evidence of Burisma and Hunter Biden and Joe Biden, all of the evidence of corruption.

00:05:33.100 That's what matters. The central question in this trial is whether a president can investigate corruption.

00:05:40.980 And the answer to that is obviously yes, if there are real and credible allegations of corruption.

00:05:45.860 And with Hunter and Joe Biden and Burisma, there was enormous evidence of corruption.

00:05:50.040 We finally heard that today.

00:05:51.640 And by dinnertime, the Republican senators were happy, relaxed, serene.

00:05:57.900 It was totally different because we'd just gone through several hours of the actual defense in the case, which finally got to be able to put on.

00:06:07.320 OK, well, I want to get into those arguments then, because this was a pivotal day.

00:06:10.680 We got a little preview of the Trump team's arguments on Saturday.

00:06:14.160 But today was the first full day.

00:06:16.500 Last week, the Democrats make their arguments.

00:06:18.560 And then this week, the Trump team gets to do it.

00:06:20.960 It opened up with Ken Starr, who was the star of the Clinton impeachment trial back in the 90s.

00:06:26.880 Then it went on to some of President Trump's other lawyers.

00:06:30.400 Toward the end, you get Alan Dershowitz, very famous lawyer, a professor of yours, I believe.

00:06:35.980 You know him well.

00:06:36.780 Taught me criminal law 101, my first week in law school.

00:06:39.740 And I've known him 25, 30 years.

00:06:42.080 So I hate to put you on the spot because you know one of the lawyers, you know, multiple lawyers who are arguing today.

00:06:47.600 How did they do?

00:06:49.040 They did very well.

00:06:49.940 This was a very good day for President Trump.

00:06:52.340 This was a very bad day for the Democrats.

00:06:54.320 And I got to say, watching the Democrats at council table, when Pam Bondi got up.

00:07:02.720 So Pam Bondi is one of President Trump's lawyers.

00:07:04.540 Right.

00:07:04.860 And Eric Hirschman, who are two of the lawyers for President Trump.

00:07:08.340 They both got up and they laid out the evidence of Burisma, the Ukrainian natural gas company that was built in corruption, that was paying Hunter Biden a million bucks a year.

00:07:19.560 And they finally showed the tape of Joe Biden bragging about how you want to talk about quid pro quo.

00:07:27.940 So on Donald Trump, the evidence is conflicting on whether there's a quid pro quo.

00:07:32.700 There's some evidence that some testimony said there was some testimony said there wasn't doesn't matter.

00:07:36.800 Do you know the one undisputed quid pro quo in this in this entire proceeding?

00:07:41.460 Joe Biden.

00:07:42.640 We saw on video.

00:07:43.580 Joe Biden on video said he told the president of Ukraine he would block a billion dollars in aid unless he fired the Ukrainian prosecutor who was investigating Burisma, which was paying his son, Hunter Biden, a million bucks a year. 0.99

00:07:58.600 And as you know, Biden ends it with going, well, son of a bitch, they fired him. 0.99

00:08:03.480 That's a quid pro quo. 0.99

00:08:04.800 And Biden not only admits to it, he brags about it.

00:08:07.680 He's proud.

00:08:08.580 And I got to say, playing that, I think the Trump team did a good job laying it out.

00:08:12.440 I think they walked through the evidence.

00:08:14.860 But but I spent a good chunk of it just watching the House managers faces.

00:08:19.480 I got to say, Adam Schiff was ashen.

00:08:22.220 I mean, really?

00:08:22.920 Their faces were horrified.

00:08:24.720 Because we couldn't see that.

00:08:25.700 I certainly didn't see that on the C-SPAN camera.

00:08:27.780 So you would see him kind of try to smile and like puff up his chest and then it sort of slumped down.

00:08:33.680 But the interesting thing is they knew this was coming.

00:08:38.060 It's why several days ago I said the House managers threw Joe Biden under the bus.

00:08:42.540 Because when they spent several hours of their presentation making the case that there is zero evidence to investigate Burisma or the Bidens for corruption, which is a laughable proposition.

00:08:53.040 They knew to a metaphysical certainty that today would happen. 0.99

00:08:58.640 In other words, they knew they knew about the son of a bitch video. 0.99

00:09:01.360 I mean, it's not like they're living in a cave. 0.99

00:09:03.000 Right.

00:09:03.360 And they set it up.

00:09:04.780 They knew about the video we played last week on the podcast where ABC asked Hunter Biden, would you have gotten this job?

00:09:10.760 You know, been paid a million bucks a year if your name wasn't Biden?

00:09:15.360 He's like, no.

00:09:16.660 I mean, they knew that was coming, but it was still painful.

00:09:19.660 But did you know that the Trump team would be so aggressive?

00:09:22.780 Because I, going into it, I had this fear, and we talked about it on the show, that the Trump team would play it cautious, play it safe,

00:09:29.000 simply answer the Democrat accusations from last week.

00:09:32.820 And instead, they got pretty aggressive.

00:09:35.300 Well, I think they heard from a lot of voices that they needed to affirmatively present the president's defense, that the president is innocent.

00:09:43.920 And there's a reason he's innocent.

00:09:45.380 It is perfectly OK.

00:09:47.140 And in fact, the president's got a responsibility.

00:09:50.100 If there's credible evidence of corruption, to investigate that evidence.

00:09:54.180 Yeah.

00:09:54.300 And, you know, it was striking.

00:09:57.480 You remember the first couple of days, Jerry Nadler, one of the house managers, he said, out of hundreds of thousands of Ukrainian companies,

00:10:05.780 why would Trump be interested in this one?

00:10:08.960 And the screaming answer is, well, as far as I know, it's the only Ukrainian company that was paying the son of the vice president a million bucks a year.

00:10:18.740 And the point is, it's not about some abstract interest in Ukrainian corruption.

00:10:24.940 It's not like the president's worried about someone knocking off 7-Elevens in Ukraine.

00:10:28.460 Right.

00:10:29.100 This is about American corruption.

00:10:30.960 This is about a prospect of a corrupt foreign company effectively bribing the vice president of the United States.

00:10:38.120 Now, that may not be the case.

00:10:39.300 I'm not saying that happened.

00:10:40.620 But there's more than enough evidence to investigate it and find out whether it did.

00:10:45.180 So you think that the Trump team did a good argument, Ken Starr, Alan Dershowitz, everybody in the middle.

00:10:51.280 I actually think that the biggest fireworks of the day were not presented by the Trump legal team.

00:10:56.920 I think they were presented by you when you were talking to the press.

00:11:00.400 Because during one of these breaks, you had a press gaggle.

00:11:03.440 You were answering their questions and speaking to them.

00:11:05.940 You, more than anybody that I've seen, have been very aggressive on this, saying that this impeachment is about burisma.

00:11:12.360 It's about corruption in Joe Biden, potential corruption by Joe Biden in the Obama administration.

00:11:18.000 Go after that.

00:11:18.980 I think you got under the press's skin so much that at one point, one of these reporters suggested throwing your nine-year-old daughter in jail.

00:11:30.420 Do we have the clip?

00:11:30.980 Basically, what they said was Hunter Biden got a job.

00:11:35.560 That was vice president.

00:11:37.160 If that's a crime, I mean, shouldn't half of your children be in prison?

00:11:41.180 My children are nine and 11.

00:11:42.960 I'm sorry that you want to throw a nine-year-old in prison.

00:11:45.560 But at this point, my third grader plays basketball and softball at her school.

00:11:51.420 So stop playing the nasty, no, no, stop playing the nasty Washington game.

00:11:56.700 I'm sorry, that's not nasty Washington game.

00:11:58.880 Attacking a nine-year-old?

00:12:00.240 Senator, I have no idea.

00:12:01.940 All right.

00:12:03.740 You know, I love that you kept your cool there and you kind of laughed it off.

00:12:08.160 But that is pretty deranged for a reporter to say they want to throw your kid in jail.

00:12:13.260 Well, you know, it shows the desperation of the press corps.

00:12:16.600 So Trump has had a lot of consequences for America, many of which have been fantastically

00:12:23.460 good in terms of policy, in terms of substance.

00:12:26.400 One of which that has been also really, really good is exposing the rampant bias of the media.

00:12:32.260 Exactly.

00:12:32.560 And Donald Trump has broken the media.

00:12:35.460 Their role right now is they're desperate to be the defenders of the Democrats.

00:12:39.680 And so I had just finished standing up and saying today was devastating for the House

00:12:44.920 managers and walking through a little bit of the evidence of corruption that was laid

00:12:49.240 out.

00:12:49.880 The media doesn't want to cover any of this.

00:12:52.380 So what that guy was doing, I mean, he was trying to say, well, everybody does it.

00:12:55.840 Come on, your kids do it.

00:12:57.480 And they're desperately, OK, so I got news for the media.

00:13:00.480 No, everybody doesn't do this.

00:13:02.420 I promise you.

00:13:03.180 If there's anybody else in Washington that has a kid making a million bucks a year from

00:13:09.340 a corrupt company that is getting favors from the vice president of the United States, that

00:13:15.240 ain't something everybody does.

00:13:16.780 Like, look, I mean, it's they're trying to cover it up as, oh, it's Uncle Joe.

00:13:23.180 It's no big deal.

00:13:25.480 This is bad stuff. 0.96

00:13:27.880 This stinks.

00:13:29.460 It's, you know, one of the things the Trump's defense team did today is they played from

00:13:37.220 the ABC clip with Hunter Biden, a component.

00:13:39.420 We still don't know, by the way, how much money Hunter Biden made.

00:13:42.240 Well, we know he was driving around Hollywood in a very expensive Porsche.

00:13:45.520 So I think he did pretty well.

00:13:46.720 Well, and ABC asked him, so how much did this corrupt Ukrainian natural gas company pay 0.99

00:13:51.480 you while your dad was vice president and why while he was leading Ukraine policy for

00:13:56.100 the Obama administration?

00:13:57.240 And he said, well, I'm not going to tell you.

00:13:58.600 I don't have to be open kimono.

00:14:01.220 Well, do you know that nobody knows how much he was paid?

00:14:04.180 We know it was at least $83,000 a month, but he's never answered that.

00:14:08.640 And the House managers have no desire to know the answer to that.

00:14:12.360 Well, what's so shocking to me about many of these interviews and that clip in particular

00:14:16.620 is the media have been going after not just you, but a lot of Republican senators.

00:14:20.980 And they've been assailing you all for not being objective and completely without an interest

00:14:27.520 in this impeachment trial because, you know, you're Republicans.

00:14:31.200 Of course, an impeachment trial is different than other trials, right?

00:14:34.160 You're going to have interests on both sides.

00:14:36.380 The one group that is supposed to remain disinterested, objective is the media.

00:14:41.920 And then the moment you get over the target of what this impeachment is all about, they

00:14:47.040 clearly lose their minds.

00:14:49.540 Well, you know, Judge Ken Starr started the argument today and he did a very good job of

00:14:53.560 pointing out.

00:14:54.180 So a lot of folks in the media like to say, oh, the senators are jurors.

00:14:58.180 That's not, in fact, right.

00:15:00.360 And in the Clinton impeachment trial, a Democratic senator objected to senators being called jurors

00:15:07.420 and Chief Justice Rehnquist sustained the objection.

00:15:10.320 Starr actually put it very well.

00:15:11.700 The Senate is a court, which means the Senate where the judges, where the jurors were deciding 0.58

00:15:17.540 questions of law and fact, and we're not supposed to be disconnected from the process.

00:15:22.240 The framers knew what they were doing when they handed it to the upper chamber of Congress.

00:15:26.660 But, you know, what we do need to do is keep the focus on the actual legal question, which

00:15:33.780 is whether high crimes or misdemeanors were committed.

00:15:37.440 And it's why, look, the fundamental answer, the reason the House manager's case fails and

00:15:45.420 the president will be acquitted is because, presidents, it's not an impeachable offense

00:15:50.940 to investigate credible evidence of corruption.

00:15:53.980 By the way, it would have been very different if Trump had said to Ukraine, hey, would you

00:15:59.960 concoct some fake and bogus material on Joe Biden and fraudulently accuse him of something?

00:16:06.620 Look, we'd have a totally different case there.

00:16:08.580 Right.

00:16:08.880 But that's not what he said.

00:16:10.080 All of the evidence, 100 percent of it said, investigate what happened.

00:16:13.900 This is bad.

00:16:15.100 Biden bragged about getting the prosecutor fired.

00:16:18.060 It is not an impeachable offense to investigate credible evidence of corruption.

00:16:24.140 That's the issue that matters.

00:16:26.260 And the press is going to try to change the subject.

00:16:29.400 You know what?

00:16:29.920 This Bolton bombshell today, it won't be the last bombshell.

00:16:34.020 We'll see another one coming up later this week.

00:16:36.200 And actually, a bunch of us on the Judiciary Committee who went through Kavanaugh, we were

00:16:40.920 saying we're kind of steel to this because we saw, I remember, day after day, there was

00:16:45.120 another revelation.

00:16:46.220 By the end of it, they had him in high school, like, drugging people and, like, participating

00:16:51.180 in, you know, all sorts.

00:16:52.440 I mean, it got, remember Michael Avenatti?

00:16:55.580 Briefly, the media wanted him to be the Democratic nominee for president.

00:16:58.480 He was this lawyer who would go on CNN.

00:17:00.760 This was during, now, Justice Kavanaugh's confirmation hearings to the Supreme Court.

00:17:06.140 It was the timing of every big scandal bombshell.

00:17:09.320 It seemed so perfectly coordinated.

00:17:11.360 And that's what it, I mean, that is the big news of the day, is this Bolton bombshell.

00:17:16.620 I'm sure you're right, it won't be the last.

00:17:18.180 But for those of us who don't know the inner machinations, how this was leaked, who leaked

00:17:23.200 it, who's going to leak the next one, I guess the question all of us have is, what happens

00:17:28.660 next?

00:17:29.300 Let's say that because of this bombshell from John Bolton, we now get witnesses, and this

00:17:35.800 trial drags on well past Saturday, maybe for weeks and weeks.

00:17:40.060 What are we going to look forward to next?

00:17:41.920 So we don't know for sure.

00:17:43.600 Tomorrow will be the last day of arguments, opening arguments, for the Trump legal defense

00:17:47.880 team.

00:17:48.200 Okay.

00:17:48.640 So they'll start tomorrow at 1 o'clock, go as long as they go.

00:17:52.080 Then the next two days, we're going to have questions from senators.

00:17:55.800 Eight hours a day for two days.

00:17:57.760 We ask questions, but we don't get to ask them ourselves.

00:18:00.760 We write them down, and the chief justice asks them for us.

00:18:04.140 So I will say to the folks listening to this podcast, if you have questions that you want

00:18:09.660 me to ask, either the house managers or Trump's legal defense team, suggest them.

00:18:16.000 You can tweet them.

00:18:17.280 I'm at Ted Cruz, and just put hashtag verdict.

00:18:20.660 And we are looking at what's online on Twitter and looking for questions that will help focus

00:18:27.360 on the issues that matter.

00:18:29.280 After the questions are over, then at the end of the week, we're going to vote up or down

00:18:34.460 are additional witnesses necessary?

00:18:36.160 If we get 51 senators who say yes, then frankly, it's Katie barred the door. 1.00

00:18:42.040 Right.

00:18:42.620 If it ends up that there are four Republicans who join the Democrats and say, okay, we need

00:18:47.280 to hear from John Bolton, I think that's possible.

00:18:49.260 I will give you some good news.

00:18:50.640 If that happens, I'm extremely confident we will also hear from Hunter Biden.

00:18:55.640 So you don't think there's a world in which they vote for witnesses, but the only witness

00:18:59.620 who is called is John Bolton?

00:19:01.740 Zero chance.

00:19:02.380 Okay.

00:19:02.500 Zero.

00:19:03.160 And the Democrats are terrified about that.

00:19:05.740 You know, Chuck Schumer's like, no, no, no, we can't call Hunter Biden.

00:19:08.060 You're seeing Democratic senators going, no, no, no, don't call Hunter Biden.

00:19:11.480 Look, today's testimony revealed if there's one witness that was called, it should be Hunter

00:19:16.340 Biden because he's right at the center.

00:19:17.920 And remember, the issue is not Hunter Biden.

00:19:21.280 I don't know the guy.

00:19:22.160 It looks like he's led a pretty troubled life.

00:19:25.040 The question is not even about whether he's involved in corruption.

00:19:29.600 It's about whether his father, the vice president who was making the Obama administration's policy

00:19:36.260 and leading it, whether he was involved in corruption.

00:19:39.120 And that's a question that goes right to the heart of Trump's asking it to be investigated.

00:19:44.600 And I want to underscore a point we said last week because people may not have focused on

00:19:51.420 its importance.

00:19:52.300 And it's about to become very, very important if we have witnesses, which is if Hunter Biden

00:19:57.600 is called as a witness, if we subpoena Hunter Biden, he will almost certainly plead the fifth.

00:20:02.100 He'll almost certainly come in and say, I refuse to answer questions on the grounds that it might

00:20:06.420 incriminate me.

00:20:07.100 And he has the constitutional right.

00:20:07.200 And he has a right under the Bill of Rights.

00:20:09.060 He doesn't want to testify and admit to committing a crime.

00:20:12.800 Here's a piece almost nobody knows.

00:20:16.300 If he does that, there is a statute that explicitly gives the Senate the power to give him testimonial

00:20:23.000 immunity, which means he would be immune from being prosecuted for what he says in his testimony.

00:20:30.640 Why does that matter?

00:20:31.640 You may think, gosh, immunity sounds like a good thing for him.

00:20:34.700 It's actually not because immunity means we can force him to testify because we want to

00:20:39.920 get the evidence of what did your dad know?

00:20:42.420 You know, one of the interesting things that we heard today.

00:20:45.080 So Hunter Biden had two business partners.

00:20:48.100 This guy, Devin Archer, was also on the board of Burisma.

00:20:50.960 Yeah.

00:20:51.360 And then John Kerry's son-in-law.

00:20:53.660 What a coincidence.

00:20:54.900 Or not son-in-law, stepson rather.

00:20:56.680 OK.

00:20:56.820 And his stepson, when his two business partners joined the board, he sent an email to the State

00:21:05.980 Department, to his stepfather's chief of staff, saying, Devin and Hunter have joined the board

00:21:11.880 of Burisma.

00:21:12.480 I don't know why they did this, but I got nothing to do with it.

00:21:15.500 And he broke off doing business with them because of their poor judgment in getting paid millions

00:21:22.520 from this corrupt company.

00:21:23.720 You know, we actually got a mailbag question specifically about the ability of the Senate

00:21:29.680 to force Hunter Biden to testify.

00:21:32.180 And the question comes from Susan.

00:21:37.220 If the Senate forces Hunter Biden to testify by granting him immunity, would he also receive

00:21:43.060 immunity if he perjured himself during the testimony?

00:21:46.880 So if he lies, he wouldn't.

00:21:47.940 So immunity does not immunize you from perjury.

00:21:51.460 And it doesn't immunize you from the underlying crimes, but it does prevent any prosecutor from

00:21:58.860 using your testimony as evidence against you.

00:22:01.000 Well, then there's a similar follow-up question.

00:22:02.840 And by the way, the way the statute works is the Senate, 51 senators vote to grant immunity.

00:22:07.820 We then have to go to a federal district court and file that, but the district court has to

00:22:11.580 grant it.

00:22:12.140 Right.

00:22:12.680 It's mandatory under the statute.

00:22:14.280 That, I've seen that nowhere in the press.

00:22:17.300 Obviously, I think Hunter Biden's probably sweating about that, and the Democrats in the

00:22:20.780 House are probably sweating more.

00:22:21.840 And Joe Biden is sweating more.

00:22:22.820 And by the way, I'll tell you, some of the happiest faces in that Senate were Bernie, Elizabeth

00:22:29.700 Warren, and Klobuchar.

00:22:31.640 All running for president.

00:22:32.800 Now, I mean, they, this was a bad, bad day for the House Democrats case, but also for

00:22:40.900 Joe Biden.

00:22:41.580 This was, this was not pretty.

00:22:42.980 So let's say President Trump gets off the hook.

00:22:45.340 He is not removed from office.

00:22:46.780 Matthew asks, does the Fifth Amendment regarding double jeopardy attach?

00:22:51.480 Should the Senate exonerate the president?

00:22:54.860 Can the president be tried again for the same articles?

00:22:58.460 I don't think we've ever seen that situation in history.

00:23:01.260 So impeachment and prosecution for a criminal offense are two different matters.

00:23:06.000 So yes, you can be tried separate.

00:23:09.220 Now, you've got to prove a crime.

00:23:10.300 You've got to prove beyond a reasonable doubt.

00:23:12.220 And amazingly enough, the House managers haven't alleged a crime.

00:23:15.460 It's one of the things, actually, Alan Dershowitz, Professor Dershowitz at the end, did a really

00:23:19.380 good job of walking through the constitutional history, that you can't, high crimes or misdemeanors

00:23:25.980 requires that you prove that the president has committed a crime on the order of treason

00:23:33.220 or bribery, because that's what the Constitution said.

00:23:35.620 And it was very interesting.

00:23:37.740 Professor Dershowitz walked through a couple of other provisions of the Constitution, which

00:23:41.220 almost no one knows who's looked at this.

00:23:43.700 So you know the impeachment clause.

00:23:45.380 But there are two other places where impeachment is referenced in the Constitution beyond

00:23:49.080 beyond the power of impeachment and the trial.

00:23:52.760 Because the impeachment clause is just saying that the Congress has the power to impeach

00:23:55.620 the president, and the Senate will conduct the trial.

00:23:57.760 And actually, the Constitution uses the word soul twice.

00:24:01.840 It says the House has the sole power of impeachment, and the Senate has the sole power to try impeachment.

00:24:06.780 So the only times the word S-O-L-E is used in the Constitution concerns impeachment.

00:24:11.900 But there are two other references.

00:24:12.880 Number one, in Article 2, which concerns the presidency, it gives the president the power

00:24:20.020 to grant pardons and reprieves for offenses against the United States, except in cases

00:24:25.980 of impeachment.

00:24:27.160 So the president can't pardon impeachment.

00:24:30.220 But it also says offenses against the United States, which are crimes.

00:24:34.440 In Article 3 of the Constitution, which concerns the judiciary, the Constitution says trial of

00:24:41.400 all crimes, except in cases of impeachment, shall be by jury.

00:24:47.820 Now, what does that imply?

00:24:49.440 Impeachment are crimes.

00:24:51.160 And so the House Democrats have admitted that they aren't alleging a crime.

00:24:55.120 So this is a unique historical situation in as much as we have the impeachment going on.

00:25:01.360 But when the Congress impeached the president, they did not accuse him of a crime.

00:25:06.380 So are you saying we're just in uncharted territory?

00:25:09.260 We are.

00:25:09.760 It has never happened in history that a president has been impeached without the articles alleging

00:25:15.380 he's committed a crime.

00:25:16.480 And actually, something Ken Starr said that was really powerful.

00:25:19.320 We have never before in history seen a president impeached on a pure partisan vote.

00:25:23.720 Only Democrats voted for it.

00:25:26.180 And Ken Starr made a great point.

00:25:27.980 You know, the Constitution requires for conviction to remove a president two-thirds of the Senate.

00:25:32.360 Impeachment was supposed to be a consensus, a national consensus that this crosses a high

00:25:39.060 threshold.

00:25:40.300 There ain't that consensus.

00:25:42.220 And so fighting this is just a partisan battle the way the Democrats are doing is wrong.

00:25:47.980 You know, the conclusion I draw from all of this is one of anxiety because we are in uncharted

00:25:53.620 territory here.

00:25:54.320 I think it's going to make the question time on Thursday so important.

00:25:58.540 So please, to all of our listeners, get your questions in.

00:26:01.760 Tweet them at Ted Cruz.

00:26:03.340 Use the hashtag verdict.

00:26:05.280 And we will try to get those questions asked during the impeachment trial.

00:26:08.620 Then you can come back here afterwards.

00:26:10.320 You know, this is an early night.

00:26:11.300 It's not even midnight yet.

00:26:12.600 You've made it over from the Capitol.

00:26:14.420 And we will go through all of it then.

00:26:17.140 Thank you.

00:26:17.340 There are two things I want to follow up on quickly because I have been given an assignment.

00:26:20.720 Okay.

00:26:21.160 So last week, you'll recall, I mentioned that I brought up with Caroline, my 11-year-old

00:26:25.220 daughter.

00:26:25.620 Yeah.

00:26:25.840 When we had risen to the number three podcast in the country, I called her and told her

00:26:29.320 and she said, Dad, I really don't care.

00:26:32.040 So I got home Saturday night, Sunday, yesterday, I was home.

00:26:36.000 And I told Caroline, you know, we rose from number three all the way to number one.

00:26:39.480 And look, I thought that was kind of cool.

00:26:40.800 Are you impressed now?

00:26:41.660 You know, trying to like, you know, get my daughter to think that's cool.

00:26:44.800 And she said, I know.

00:26:47.000 And you passed Joe Rogan.

00:26:49.500 And she said, and Joe Rogan interviewed Robert Downey Jr.

00:26:53.080 And that's the coolest thing in the world.

00:26:54.820 Caroline is like obsessed with Iron Man. 0.70

00:26:57.460 And she's like, if he interviewed Robert Downey Jr., I don't know how you passed him, Dad.

00:27:00.860 I don't know how that happened.

00:27:02.060 But that's really cool.

00:27:03.740 That's six degrees of Kevin Bacon.

00:27:05.140 And I got to say, for any dad of an 11-year-old, it is really hard to like impress an 11-year-old

00:27:12.140 with anything.

00:27:12.660 So, I thought it was very cool that passing Joe Rogan did it with Caroline Cruz.

00:27:17.640 And that made me pretty happy.

00:27:19.000 And there's a coincidence.

00:27:20.360 We passed Joe Rogan's show with this show, Verdict with Ted Cruz, just about a day or

00:27:25.880 two after Joe endorsed Bernie Sanders.

00:27:27.740 Is that a coincidence?

00:27:28.640 Look, I think it's cause and effect.

00:27:30.660 But let me say to everyone listening, if you haven't subscribed and signed up for this

00:27:36.820 podcast going forward, please do, because we're having fun.

00:27:40.520 We really appreciate it.

00:27:42.000 And it looks like with everything and uncertainty, I'll probably be stuck in D.C. for quite a

00:27:45.980 while now.

00:27:46.540 So be sure to tune back.

00:27:47.760 I'm Michael Knowles.

00:27:48.600 This is Verdict with Ted Cruz.

00:27:50.000 This episode of Verdict with Ted Cruz is being brought to you by Jobs Freedom and Security

00:28:02.520 Pack, a political action committee dedicated to supporting conservative causes, organizations

00:28:07.660 and candidates across the country.

00:28:09.700 In 2022, Jobs Freedom and Security Pack plans to donate to conservative candidates running

00:28:15.380 for Congress and help the Republican Party across the nation.

00:28:19.620 This is an iHeart Podcast.

00:28:21.900 Guaranteed human.

Verdict with Ted Cruz - January 28, 2020

The Bolton Bombshell

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