Verdict with Ted Cruz - The Smirk Heard Around the World： Dems Celebrate & We Break Down Why Trump Verdict WILL Be Reversed

00:00:00.000 This is an iHeart Podcast.

00:00:02.500 Guaranteed human.

00:00:04.480 Welcome. It is Verdict with Senator Ted Cruz, Ben Ferguson with you.

00:00:08.660 And Senator, we now know the White House,

00:00:11.480 they know how to celebrate when it comes to Donald Trump being convicted.

00:00:16.140 Well, that's exactly right.

00:00:17.460 We have seen now the smirk heard around the world.

00:00:21.600 Joe Biden, jubilant, gleeful, celebrating and spiking the football in the end zone

00:00:27.300 at this political prosecution, and it's not just a prosecution.

00:00:32.060 It is a persecution which Democrats believe will yield dividends in November.

00:00:37.660 We're going to break down the fallout from the convictions in New York,

00:00:42.080 and we're going to go into detail about precisely why this was an abuse of power,

00:00:47.900 the jury instructions that were given in this trial, how this was rigged,

00:00:53.280 and the Democrats do not want anyone to acknowledge how it was rigged.

00:00:58.140 Well, we're going to give you the facts. We're going to break it down.

00:01:00.680 It was shocking to see how gleeful the president of the United States of America was

00:01:04.800 at knowing that his political opponent is now a official political prisoner.

00:01:10.040 Well, look, it is sad watching Joe Biden, utterly gleeful, and not even pretending to hide it.

00:01:16.620 You know, I have to say, if you're going to do a kangaroo trial, 0.61

00:01:19.880 if you're going to go after your political opponents and try to attack them and abuse the justice system,

00:01:26.140 usually people pretend they're not doing that.

00:01:28.680 Well, not with Joe Biden.

00:01:30.440 Take a look at how we reacted when he was asked about it.

00:01:33.000 Mr. President, can you tell us, sir,

00:01:36.040 Donald Trump refers to himself as a political prisoner and blames you directly.

00:01:40.020 What's your response to that, sir?

00:01:44.300 Do you think the conviction will have an impact on the campaign?

00:01:47.080 We'd love to hear your thoughts, sir.

00:01:50.800 Should he be on the ballot, sir?

00:01:54.500 That's damning.

00:01:55.640 I mean, it's obvious he's saying, yeah, and I did that. 0.93

00:01:59.420 Look, it is disgusting.

00:02:00.720 And I will say, for those of you all listening to the audio,

00:02:03.320 as you know, in this podcast, we do three shows a week that are on audio.

00:02:07.180 One of them typically is on video.

00:02:08.920 This is one of the video shows.

00:02:10.500 So if you're on audio, I'd encourage you to go over to YouTube and watch the video

00:02:13.720 because you actually need to see the expression on his face.

00:02:18.620 He's gleeful.

00:02:19.760 He's not hiding it.

00:02:21.540 He is spiking the football and just shameless.

00:02:24.440 It is, I'm abusing power.

00:02:28.100 I'm reminded of Mel Brooks' history of the world.

00:02:31.080 It's good to be the king.

00:02:32.780 That's actually what I thought. 0.98

00:02:34.960 I could almost hear Biden saying, I'm abusing my power, damn it, and I'm proud of it. 0.98

00:02:41.340 Now, I will say this. 0.98

00:02:43.060 The Trump campaign saw that and immediately turned it around.

00:02:48.100 They put together an ad.

00:02:49.280 I've got to say, it's a heck of a powerful ad.

00:02:51.120 It's the same thing you've seen, you just saw, but with a little bit of music,

00:02:54.700 a little bit of context.

00:02:55.940 Take a look at this Trump ad.

00:02:57.440 This was done by the Biden administration in order to move, to hurt an opponent,

00:03:03.500 a political opponent.

00:03:04.520 Mr. President, can you tell us, sir, Donald Trump refers to himself as a political prisoner

00:03:10.820 and blames you directly.

00:03:12.080 What's your response to that, sir?

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00:05:11.740 Senator, that ad was a brilliant ad.

00:05:14.300 I also think we can see that America saw that smirk for what it was, a threat to our freedom

00:05:20.700 and democracy and our way of life in this country, trying to imprison your political opponents.

00:05:27.060 But even more than that, people went to donate to Trump like never before.

00:05:31.940 They're angry.

00:05:32.740 $53 million in the first 24 hours.

00:05:36.660 It was stunning.

00:05:39.180 And by the way, I will say, I think Republicans across the board saw that.

00:05:43.740 I can tell you in terms of my campaign website, we saw a surge of donations there as well.

00:05:48.100 I assume others did as well.

00:05:49.520 I think people saw what happened in the campaign and they were pissed off.

00:05:53.860 And they were pissed off and they had the reaction.

00:05:56.560 They're like, this is wrong.

00:05:58.300 We need to stand up and fight back.

00:06:00.400 You know, I got to say, watching that smirk, it's infuriating.

00:06:05.020 But it was a moment when the mask slipped.

00:06:09.860 And so the Democrats are playing a game.

00:06:12.620 This political prosecution was all about calling Trump a convicted felon.

00:06:19.040 They can now do that.

00:06:20.380 They're going to do that every single day until Election Day.

00:06:24.360 Now, there's kind of a script that you play when you're doing a kangaroo court.

00:06:28.780 When the court is over, what you say is, is, I quote South Park, respect my authority.

00:06:37.620 That's supposed to be the line.

00:06:39.080 Well, Joe Biden managed, when he wasn't caught smirking through giving his genuine reaction,

00:06:46.720 to read the script and say, we now have the verdict.

00:06:51.300 We must respect the authority.

00:06:53.340 Give a listen to this press conference of Joe Biden telling everyone,

00:06:57.040 shut up and accept the results. 0.99

00:06:58.780 Trump is a bad guy. 1.00

00:07:02.740 Just checking this afternoon.

00:07:06.100 Good afternoon.

00:07:08.100 Before I begin my remarks, I just want to say a few words about what happened yesterday in New York City.

00:07:15.320 The American principle that no one is above the law was reaffirmed.

00:07:21.720 Donald Trump was given every opportunity to defend himself.

00:07:24.480 It was a state case, not a federal case.

00:07:28.780 And it was heard by a jury of 12 citizens, 12 Americans, 12 people like you.

00:07:35.240 Like millions of Americans who served on juries.

00:07:39.300 This jury is chosen the same way every jury in America is chosen.

00:07:44.260 It was a process that Donald Trump's attorney was part of.

00:07:47.560 The jury heard five weeks of evidence, five weeks after careful deliberation, the jury reached a unanimous verdict.

00:07:56.580 They found Donald Trump guilty on all 34 felony counts.

00:08:03.300 Now he'll be given the opportunity as he should to appeal that decision, just like everyone else has that opportunity.

00:08:11.200 That's how the American system of justice works.

00:08:14.700 And it's reckless.

00:08:16.680 It's dangerous.

00:08:18.400 It's irresponsible for anyone to say this was rigged just because they don't like the verdict.

00:08:24.120 Our justice system has endured for nearly 250 years.

00:08:29.860 And it literally is the cornerstone of America, our justice system.

00:08:34.740 The justice system should be respected.

00:08:37.280 And we should never allow anyone to tear it down.

00:08:40.340 It's as simple as that.

00:08:42.160 That's America.

00:08:43.580 That's who we are.

00:08:45.760 And that's who we'll always be, God willing.

00:08:48.100 He said it's irresponsible to say that this verdict was rigged, that this jury was rigged, that all of this was rigged.

00:08:56.580 But then he smirks, basically saying, yeah, it was rigged and you should respect the system that we just rigged.

00:09:02.660 Look, I got to say, listening to that, watching that, it is infuriating.

00:09:06.520 It makes my blood boil.

00:09:07.800 He says it's reckless to do this and we need to not tear down the justice system.

00:09:12.060 Nobody has torn down our justice system more than that man, Joseph Robinette Biden Jr.

00:09:18.100 He has presided over, number one, politicizing the Department of Justice in a way that is utterly shameful, that targets his political enemies, that protects his own corruption.

00:09:30.300 And at the same time, he says, well, we got to respect this system.

00:09:33.240 He ignores the fact that Alvin Bragg is a viciously partisan prosecutor, a Democrat who campaigns saying, I'm the guy to get Donald Trump.

00:09:41.320 I'm the one to get Donald Trump.

00:09:42.640 I know how to get Donald Trump.

00:09:44.060 I'm the one to get Donald Trump.

00:09:45.720 Joe Biden doesn't acknowledge any of that.

00:09:47.260 He doesn't acknowledge the fact that the number three person at his own Justice Department left the Department of Justice to go join the prosecution.

00:09:55.040 He has a line in there.

00:09:56.120 This was a state case, not a federal case, except for the fact that one of the lead lawyers was your number three lawyer at the Department of Justice.

00:10:03.480 He doesn't acknowledge the fact that this judge was a joke, was a rabid partisan, was a donor to Joe Biden.

00:10:11.540 He's one of his donors.

00:10:12.340 And you know what?

00:10:13.860 He behaved.

00:10:15.520 You know, the man should have been he should have taken off his black robe and he should have put on a Biden hat because it was a campaign.

00:10:23.280 You want to talk about an unacknowledged campaign contribution?

00:10:26.580 How about every day Judge Murchant showed up to work?

00:10:30.980 That was a campaign contribution.

00:10:32.880 And by the way, under their theory, it was clearly intended to influence the outcome of the election.

00:10:37.200 Alvin Bragg every day.

00:10:38.500 Apparently, Joe Biden needs to disclose Alvin Bragg's salary on his campaign finance reports because this is entirely intended to influence the outcome of an election.

00:10:49.320 It is.

00:10:51.620 Look, the rule of law matters.

00:10:54.260 What happened this week, it's infuriating and it's disappointing.

00:11:00.860 It was also premeditated.

00:11:02.420 Yes, they knew what they were doing.

00:11:04.060 It's why the smirk.

00:11:05.260 The smirk was the honesty.

00:11:08.320 That whole riff was the planned defense.

00:11:10.860 By the way, it was planned at the beginning.

00:11:12.300 They knew what they were going to say.

00:11:13.500 It was all about we do a kangaroo court.

00:11:16.020 It's all over now.

00:11:17.120 Listen to the court.

00:11:17.900 Listen to the court.

00:11:18.440 No, no, no.

00:11:18.980 You can't call it a kangaroo court.

00:11:21.020 Never mind the kangaroo jumping up and down.

00:11:23.500 Ignore the facts.

00:11:24.560 Ignore the law.

00:11:25.940 We have someone who is wearing a robe who says him bad.

00:11:29.740 Okay, you got to keep us in power.

00:11:31.100 And by the way, that's all we care about, that Democrats stay in power.

00:11:34.520 They preplanned this and you can literally go back years to see it.

00:11:38.680 One of the Soros family members, and I want to pull this tweet up because I think it's an important point that you just made.

00:11:45.060 This was all orchestrated by design.

00:11:47.060 George Soros went out there and said, I want to find people that are friendly to me.

00:11:50.920 I'm going to get them elected around the country.

00:11:52.960 I'm going to weaponize the court system. 0.99

00:11:55.020 And then I'm going to get the outcomes from weaponizing the court system.

00:11:57.980 Alvin Bragg was the first part of this master plan.

00:12:01.340 You had to have a prosecutor that was willing to say, I'm not going to follow the law.

00:12:04.520 And I'm going to do egregious acts of partisanship to get us to a point where we might be able to get to a court.

00:12:11.760 And look at the tweet from Soros' son explaining that we have won.

00:12:18.100 We are successful.

00:12:19.160 Quote, Democrats to refer to Trump as a convicted felon at every opportunity.

00:12:23.220 Repetition is the key to a successful message.

00:12:27.760 And we want people to wrestle with the notion of hiring a convicted felon for the most important job in the country.

00:12:37.860 And then the New York Times headline, Trump guilty on all counts.

00:12:41.340 They planned this.

00:12:42.900 Yes.

00:12:43.180 And it was years in the making that they're all on the same team.

00:12:47.820 Now, Alex Soros is George Soros' son.

00:12:51.080 By many reports, George Soros is – he's very elderly and apparently he has diminished significantly, much like Joe Biden.

00:13:00.060 And so it is widely reported that Alex Soros is running things now, that Alex Soros is the young, hard leftist who is distributing billions of dollars, funding it all.

00:13:11.680 And so how did Alvin Bragg get elected?

00:13:14.100 With money from Soros.

00:13:16.120 Massive money from Soros.

00:13:17.520 By the way, Soros is doing this all across the country, investing millions and millions of dollars in electing left-wing DAs who let criminals out of jail, who won't prosecute murderers.

00:13:27.700 And it really is striking.

00:13:31.820 They're not hiding it.

00:13:33.520 No.

00:13:34.020 Look at this tweet.

00:13:35.100 Democrats should refer to Trump as a convicted felon at every opportunity.

00:13:38.360 As we said on Friday's pod, the entire purpose of this was for them to be able to call him a convicted felon.

00:13:47.020 Repetition is the key to a successful message.

00:13:50.000 This is all about message.

00:13:51.480 This is all about politics.

00:13:53.560 They're not hiding it.

00:13:54.900 It's why Joe Biden's smirking, which is our political plan worked, although I'm not convinced it worked.

00:14:00.400 I actually think it may well backfire. 1.00

00:14:03.540 They think people are stupid. 1.00

00:14:05.480 They think repetition is the key. 1.00

00:14:08.540 If we say it a lot, people will be stupid and just believe it. 0.99

00:14:11.460 I think people have some real common sense. 0.99

00:14:13.420 I think people understand this was a sham.

00:14:16.640 You look at the sham and you see the media respond.

00:14:21.040 We could play 50 clips, the media.

00:14:23.460 Most people that are listening, they know what was said.

00:14:26.700 But there's also this psychotic gleefulness over the idea now that they're saying not only we're going to call him a convicted felon, but Donald Trump can't travel outside the country to many other countries.

00:14:37.480 Do you really want that guy to be your president?

00:14:39.260 I mean, this is they obviously knew what they were going to say long before he was convicted and play it out for this campaign, knowing that the appeal wouldn't happen in time.

00:14:50.420 Look, this is all about politics.

00:14:52.960 The appeal will succeed.

00:14:54.900 This will be reversed on appeal.

00:14:56.700 But this is all about attacking Trump.

00:14:58.940 Now, I will say this.

00:15:00.120 Trump came out and gave a press conference.

00:15:01.800 And I want you to listen to the point he made.

00:15:03.940 This is very brief, but it is a fundamental point that ought to scare the hell out of everybody.

00:15:09.640 Give a listen.

00:15:10.740 A case where if they can do this to me, they can do this to anyone.

00:15:15.240 I think that's incredibly powerful reminder.

00:15:18.200 If the Democrats line is remind him and say it over and over again, he's a convicted felon.

00:15:23.640 Donald Trump's line should be over and over again.

00:15:25.820 If they can do this to me, a former president of the United States of America, they can do it to any one of you.

00:15:30.660 And let's let's use an example.

00:15:31.960 Ben, you're you're an influential guy.

00:15:33.940 You're well known.

00:15:35.540 You've got a very popular podcast.

00:15:38.620 You are on the radio.

00:15:40.240 You've been on the radio since you were 12 years old.

00:15:42.480 A long time.

00:15:43.420 Let me ask you something.

00:15:44.140 Are you a billionaire?

00:15:44.860 No.

00:15:45.380 Do you have a billion dollars in the bank?

00:15:46.940 No.

00:15:47.520 Do you have a team of lawyers on retainer?

00:15:49.140 No.

00:15:49.780 Were you president of the United States?

00:15:51.100 No.

00:15:51.760 Do you have universal name ID across the globe?

00:15:54.240 No.

00:15:54.820 Do you have a jet with your name on the side of it?

00:15:56.980 If they can do it to him, it's a hell of a lot easier to squash a Ben Ferguson than it is a Donald J. Trump.

00:16:07.260 If they can do it to him, whoever is listening, there's nobody listening.

00:16:11.220 They could do it to me.

00:16:12.120 They could do it to you.

00:16:13.080 They can do it to anybody.

00:16:15.540 They are grinning. 1.00

00:16:17.180 We can destroy you. 0.99

00:16:18.860 And we don't care. 0.97

00:16:20.420 It is all about power.

00:16:22.640 Look, we talk a lot on this podcast about Marxism.

00:16:25.120 And, as you know, I wrote a whole book, my last book, Unwoke, How to Defeat Cultural Marxism in America.

00:16:31.600 For me, Marxism is very real because my family has suffered and been imprisoned and tortured by Marxists.

00:16:39.340 They care about power.

00:16:41.200 The same thugs that will throw you in prison, they're trying to do the same thing to Donald Trump right now because all they care about is power.

00:16:51.380 Let's talk about the step forward for Trump and using not just the smirk, but also using this court case to explain to the American people just how rigged it is.

00:17:02.720 I think that's an important point for him.

00:17:05.020 He's going to have to go out there and explain this is how all this went down.

00:17:09.380 This is how corrupt it was.

00:17:11.340 How much into the weeds does he need to go into that?

00:17:13.760 I don't think he needs to get into the weeds a lot.

00:17:16.160 I think we're going to provide details in just a few minutes that will give you some backup on that.

00:17:22.340 But, look, I think people know.

00:17:24.080 You look at this.

00:17:25.160 Everyone involved in this is obviously a partisan.

00:17:28.820 It's why I get so angry at Joe Biden saying it's reckless to tear down our justice system because he's the one tearing down the justice system.

00:17:36.080 I watched that press conference, and it reminds me of like an arsonist holding cans of gasoline with matches in his hands saying, stop complaining about me lighting buildings on fire.

00:17:49.060 He's the one burning our justice system to the ground.

00:17:52.800 And there are real consequences to it.

00:17:54.480 There are real consequences to people losing faith.

00:17:57.900 What he actually said about our system of justice is a cornerstone of America.

00:18:01.860 That is correct.

00:18:02.660 Look, if you contrast America to banana republics, the difference is you have the rule of law. 0.72

00:18:09.300 The difference is you don't do this.

00:18:11.120 And these Democrats, they hate Trump so much.

00:18:13.760 They don't care.

00:18:15.060 They're willing to destroy it.

00:18:16.680 And all right, let's let's get to Alvin Bragg.

00:18:19.240 Alvin Bragg, mind you, he's suddenly tough on crime.

00:18:22.600 Yeah. 0.99

00:18:23.060 This is a guy who if you murder people, if you rape people, you walk down the street and you punch a little old lady in the face. 1.00

00:18:30.280 Alvin Bragg will let you go. 1.00

00:18:31.300 The illegal immigrants attacked a police officer on camera. 1.00

00:18:34.640 Let him walk out. 0.89

00:18:35.620 The same day.

00:18:36.400 The same day.

00:18:36.980 The same day.

00:18:37.900 Let him go.

00:18:38.800 This is a man who was elected to let violent criminals go.

00:18:43.400 That's what Soros wanted.

00:18:44.920 Let violent criminals go. 0.98

00:18:46.940 New York will be better with more murderers on the street. 0.99

00:18:49.520 New York will be better with more rapists on the street. 0.99

00:18:52.180 That is their view.

00:18:53.760 Now, I want you to listen to what Donald Trump said because he made a very powerful point on exactly this.

00:18:58.280 We had a D.A. who is a failed D.A.

00:19:03.460 Crime is rampant in New York.

00:19:05.180 Violent crime.

00:19:05.800 That's what he's really supposed to be looking at.

00:19:08.560 Crime is rampant in New York.

00:19:11.460 Yesterday in McDonald's, you had a man hitting him up with with machetes.

00:19:17.560 A machete.

00:19:19.480 Whoever can imagine even a machete being wielded in a store in a place where they're eating and he's going rampant.

00:19:27.960 And Bragg is down watching a trial on what they call crimes.

00:19:35.900 Crimes.

00:19:36.780 He's got a great point.

00:19:38.180 The this guy shouldn't be in this court with Donald Trump when this is what he's dealing with machete wielding individuals in New York.

00:19:44.980 So literally on the day of the trial, there was a lunatic with a machete in a McDonald's threatening people.

00:19:52.120 Now, you would think, what is a district attorney supposed to be doing?

00:19:55.000 I would think pretty high on the list is protecting me from machetes.

00:19:57.920 Like if some guy brings out a machete and is trying to hurt people, the D.A. ought to arrest him and prosecute him.

00:20:04.020 But no, Alvin Bragg, you know what?

00:20:06.660 What's what's a decapitated person or two when you're talking about Democrats?

00:20:10.000 They're willing to look the other way at that.

00:20:12.540 What was Alvin Bragg doing?

00:20:13.860 He had a political objective to be in that courtroom because he's trying to bloody Donald Trump.

00:20:19.860 He's trying to reelect Joe Biden.

00:20:21.900 He's trying to stay in power.

00:20:23.260 And I want to break down some of the material.

00:20:26.000 So there's a very interesting article that was written in the in the Intelligencer.

00:20:29.880 And it's by Ellie Honig, who is a CNN legal commentator, not a conservative, but he is a real lawyer.

00:20:35.720 And he analyzes and breaks down a lot of the enormous legal problems with with what happened in this trial.

00:20:43.920 Let me read briefly what he said.

00:20:46.160 He said the district attorney's press office and its flacks often proclaim that falsification of business records charges,

00:20:53.260 which is what they went after Trump on, are, quote, commonplace and indeed the offices, quote, bread and butter.

00:21:00.720 That's true only if you draw a definitional line so broad as to render them meaningless.

00:21:06.560 Of course, the D.A. charges falsification quite frequently.

00:21:10.040 Virtually any fraud case involves some sort of fake documentation.

00:21:14.000 So it's often an add on to some other case.

00:21:16.800 It's one of the additional crimes that's committed.

00:21:20.240 But let me continue from Ellie Honig.

00:21:23.140 But when you impose meaningful search parameters, the truth emerges.

00:21:28.800 The charges against Trump are obscure and nearly entirely unprecedented.

00:21:36.560 Now, listen to this next sentence.

00:21:38.200 In fact, no state prosecutor in New York or Wyoming or anywhere has ever listen to that word ever charged federal election laws as a direct or predicate state crime

00:21:58.700 against anyone for anything, none, ever, even putting aside the specifics of election law.

00:22:11.460 The Manhattan D.A. itself almost never brings any case in which falsification of business records is the only charge.

00:22:21.500 So that starts off on the front end.

00:22:23.680 This is unusual.

00:22:24.900 They had to get incredibly creative.

00:22:26.840 Not just unusual, never been done before.

00:22:29.100 Yeah, that's true. 0.97

00:22:30.040 Yeah, I mean, we literally said no one's been stupid enough to do it, but we packed this court. 0.97

00:22:34.960 We got the judge we want. 0.99

00:22:36.380 We got the D.A. we want.

00:22:37.820 We got a guy that the majority of the people in this area actually hate.

00:22:41.520 They knew this.

00:22:42.340 You couldn't have planned this any better.

00:22:44.020 And it goes back to the George Soros money.

00:22:45.620 We got the money to get the guy we want elected.

00:22:47.420 We got the judge.

00:22:48.560 He gave money to Joe Biden.

00:22:50.340 We've set up this kangaroo court from beginning to end exactly how you'd have to do it to get this to happen.

00:22:56.580 That's right.

00:22:57.240 Now, one of the things that we have today that we did not have when we did the last podcast is we actually have the jury instructions.

00:23:02.680 So I've gotten the written jury instructions.

00:23:04.240 I've been able to read them before I was relying on news reports of what the judge said, but I didn't actually have them in front of me.

00:23:10.460 So understand that the sort of Rube Goldberg machine that they invented to try to get anything to get Trump.

00:23:17.940 The crime is falsifying business records.

00:23:21.180 That's a misdemeanor.

00:23:21.920 By the way, a misdemeanor, do you know the definition of a misdemeanor, what the difference is between a misdemeanor and a felony?

00:23:28.020 A misdemeanor is a crime that is punishable by less than a year in jail.

00:23:31.640 The definition of a felony is a crime that is punishable by a year or more in jail.

00:23:35.100 So that's the cutoff.

00:23:36.380 Felonies, understandably, are more serious.

00:23:38.780 Speeding ticket, parking ticket, all misdemeanors because you don't go to jail for over a year for that.

00:23:45.020 Jaywalking, those are misdemeanors.

00:23:47.580 Murder is a felony.

00:23:48.860 Rape is a felony.

00:23:49.940 Burglary is a felony.

00:23:51.620 Crimes that are serious.

00:23:52.760 So falsification of business record, it is a misdemeanor.

00:23:55.560 It's punishable by less than a year.

00:23:56.900 And it has a two-year statute of limitations, which means the prosecutor has two years to bring the case.

00:24:03.060 All of this happened years ago, back in 2016.

00:24:05.560 So the statute of limitations expired years ago.

00:24:08.180 So every one of the charges that Alvin Bragg brought, you can't bring now under the plain text because two years has passed.

00:24:16.500 So New York has, however, a mechanism to elevate that crime to a felony if the falsification of business record is done with the intent to conceal another crime.

00:24:29.760 And so I want to break down these jury instructions because it's going to show just how absurd this was one thing linked upon another linked upon another.

00:24:37.020 So page 29 of the jury instructions, here's what the judge told the jury.

00:24:42.160 Intent to commit or conceal another crime.

00:24:45.380 For the crime of falsifying business records in the first degree, the intent to defraud must include an intent to commit another crime or to aid or conceal the commission thereof.

00:24:55.080 Under our law, though, the people must prove an intent to commit another crime or to aid or conceal the commission thereof.

00:25:02.400 They need not prove that the other crime was in fact committed, aided or concealed.

00:25:10.280 So it's a crime that doesn't have to have happened.

00:25:34.420 All right, so let's read some more.

00:25:37.640 New York Election Law Section 17152 predicate.

00:25:41.180 Here's what the judge instructed the jury.

00:25:43.780 The people allege that the other crime the defendant intended to commit, aid or conceal is a violation of New York Election Law Section 17152.

00:25:52.100 OK, that's some clarity that we didn't have through much of the trial.

00:25:54.660 But the judge actually specifies, all right, this is the quote other crime.

00:25:58.540 What does Section 17152 of New York Election Law provide?

00:26:02.140 Well, it provides that, quote, any two or more persons who conspire to promote or prevent the election of any person to a public office by unlawful means and which conspiracy is acted upon by one or more parties thereto shall be guilty of conspiracy to promote or prevent an election.

00:26:20.520 And so the key words there are unlawful means, two or more persons who conspire to promote or prevent the election of any person to a public office by unlawful means.

00:26:36.360 So those two words, unlawful means, are the entire foundation on which this whole case is built.

00:26:44.080 Now, what does unlawful means mean?

00:26:48.280 And this is the most important jury instruction.

00:26:50.880 This will be the basis for reversal.

00:26:53.120 When this case is appealed, it will be there are lots of reasons to reverse it.

00:26:57.340 But this is the easiest and clearest.

00:26:59.320 Here's what unlawful means means.

00:27:00.760 And it's just two paragraphs.

00:27:01.780 It's very short.

00:27:02.260 Quote, although you must conclude unanimously that the defendant conspired to promote or prevent the election of any person to a public office by unlawful means,

00:27:17.140 you need not be unanimous as to what those unlawful means were.

00:27:22.940 In determining whether the defendant conspired to promote or prevent the election of any person to a public office by unlawful means,

00:27:31.900 you may consider the following.

00:27:33.840 One, violations of the Federal Election Campaign Act, otherwise known as FICA.

00:27:40.000 Two, the falsification of other business records.

00:27:44.000 Or three, violation of tax laws.

00:27:47.440 So, we've talked about how the U.S. Supreme Court has long made clear in order to convict someone of a crime,

00:27:56.340 you must prove beyond a reasonable doubt every element of the crime,

00:27:59.460 and the jury must find unanimously that you are guilty.

00:28:02.880 You have committed every element of the crime.

00:28:05.100 What the judge just said there is, no, no.

00:28:08.200 Number one, this unlawful means means anything unlawful.

00:28:11.620 Like whatever, like we're not going to define it, but I'm going to give you three.

00:28:15.420 Juror's choice.

00:28:16.160 Your pick, it's like mix and match, choose your own adventure.

00:28:19.900 A couple people say, ah, I think it was federal campaign finance law.

00:28:22.680 Someone else, no, it was violation of the tax laws.

00:28:25.380 By the way, they don't specify what about the tax laws.

00:28:27.800 Did you violate the tax laws?

00:28:29.040 Yep.

00:28:29.640 Okay, then suddenly this is a felony.

00:28:31.820 Then suddenly the statute of limitations is extended.

00:28:34.620 Then suddenly, instead of less than a year, you can sentence Donald Trump to over 100 years.

00:28:40.100 Canadian women are looking for more. 1.00

00:28:41.900 More of themselves, their businesses, their elected leaders, and the world around them.

00:28:46.160 And that's why we're thrilled to introduce the Honest Talk podcast.

00:28:49.900 I'm Jennifer Stewart.

00:28:51.280 And I'm Catherine Clark.

00:28:52.520 And in this podcast, we interview Canada's most inspiring women.

00:28:56.260 Entrepreneurs, artists, athletes, politicians, and newsmakers.

00:28:59.800 All at different stages of their journey.

00:29:02.000 So, if you're looking to connect, then we hope you'll join us.

00:29:04.980 Listen to the Honest Talk podcast on iHeartRadio or wherever you listen to your podcasts.

00:29:11.140 Is it fair to say that the judge basically gave instructions to the jury that almost put them in a position where there's no way to not find them guilty because there's such ambiguity?

00:29:19.360 The way they define this, the judge knew damn well it was all but forcing the jury to render a guilty verdict.

00:29:28.860 Now, I still think a juror should have said no.

00:29:31.480 And by the way, there is a long tradition in our jurisprudence of what's called jury nullification, which is there are times, and this has happened repeatedly, where a juror says, 0.92

00:29:41.240 you know what, you may give me instructions that I've got to do X, Y, and Z, but this is garbage, this is BS, no, this is a miscarriage of justice.

00:29:52.380 And that's part of the reason our system has a jury system, is to have 12 ordinary people as a check on the prosecution and on the justice system. 0.96

00:30:03.380 It's why I held out hope for a hung jury that someone would say, this is so obviously garbage, I won't play a part.

00:30:12.760 But I will say I feel some sympathy for the jurors because reading this, here's the instruction that the judge gave about the Federal Election Campaign Act.

00:30:22.140 The terms, contribution, and expenditure include anything of value, including any purchase, payment, loan, or advance made by any person for the purpose of influencing any election for federal office.

00:30:32.440 Under federal law, a third party's payment of a candidate's expenses is deemed to be a contribution to the candidate unless the payment would have been made irrespective of the candidacy.

00:30:43.040 So, in this instance, the focus was on the money that Michael Cohen paid to Stormy Daniels, the so-called hush money to keep her quiet about the alleged affair.

00:30:53.820 Now, under this instruction, the judge has basically told the jury that is a campaign finance violation.

00:31:02.440 He says, any payment, any payment of candidates' expenses is deemed to be a contribution unless the payment would have been made irrespective of the candidacy.

00:31:11.600 Now, the judge did not allow Brad Smith, the chairman, former chairman of the Federal Elections Commission, to testify.

00:31:18.240 And that instruction on federal campaign finance law is woefully incomplete.

00:31:26.640 So, Brad Smith put out a tweet thread that actually explained federal campaign finance law.

00:31:32.400 I want to read it and walk through that because it will show why the judge's jury instructions were so deficient.

00:31:39.120 Before we do that, I want to talk to you about one of my commitments, and that is I am sick and tired of giving my money to companies that do not stand with my values.

00:31:48.120 And in the coffee business, there are a lot of liberal companies out there.

00:31:51.900 You probably had two or three pop into your brain right when I said that.

00:31:55.600 Well, I start my day every morning at 7 a.m. on the radio.

00:31:58.620 I've got to be awake, and I want a premium cup of coffee to start my day that, honestly, I can look forward to.

00:32:04.160 And that is why I switched to blackout coffee.

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00:33:03.680 Senator, I want you to go over what you were just describing because it's amazing that the guy that should have been able to go before the court and explain these laws and how they work to the jury was barred from testifying.

00:33:14.200 And that's why apparently he decided to put out this long tweet.

00:33:17.400 Yeah.

00:33:17.700 So this is a tweet thread.

00:33:19.320 I'm just going to read it.

00:33:20.880 Let's take a stab.

00:33:22.240 Falsifying business records under New York law is a misdemeanor, unless it is done to hide a crime.

00:33:28.500 Bragg says that crime was a violation of Federal Election Campaign Act, FICA, or of a New York statute making it illegal to influence an election by unlawful means.

00:33:37.580 But if the latter, what is the, quote, unlawful means?

00:33:41.760 That's what we were talking about a minute ago.

00:33:43.440 An alleged violation of FICA.

00:33:45.500 So it comes down to FICA.

00:33:47.460 There are two potential violations here.

00:33:49.580 One is the acceptance of an unlawful contribution by the campaign.

00:33:53.760 The other is incorrect reporting of a contribution by the campaign.

00:33:59.380 Either way, we have to have a campaign contribution.

00:34:02.880 That allegedly occurred when Cohen advanced money to pay the Stormy Daniels settlement.

00:34:07.700 FICA defines a contribution as a payment made, quote, for the purpose of influencing an election.

00:34:12.800 The 2016 max legal contribution was $2,700.

00:34:17.200 This looks bad for Trump.

00:34:19.000 It's pretty easy to conclude the payment was made to influence an election by buying Daniels' silence, right?

00:34:25.120 And Cohen paid Daniels $130,000, way over the limit.

00:34:29.100 Well, it's not so simple.

00:34:32.040 First, let's clear something up.

00:34:34.320 Cohen just loaned the money.

00:34:35.420 He was paid back and then some.

00:34:37.780 So where, some ask, is the contribution.

00:34:40.740 But this is not a winner for Trump.

00:34:43.240 Under the law, a contribution includes a loan, unless made in the ordinary course of business, e.g. a bank.

00:34:49.080 So that's not a good argument.

00:34:51.520 But for context, note that there is no limit on how much Trump can pay, can contribute to his own campaign.

00:34:58.480 By October 27th, when Daniels was paid, Trump had already spent over $60 million of his own money on the campaign.

00:35:05.640 It would have been easy for him to toss in another $130,000.

00:35:08.580 Now, back to the definition of contribution.

00:35:12.220 If they bought Daniels' silence to, quote, influence an election, what the prosecution has alleged, isn't that a contribution and also a campaign expenditure, which mirrors the contribution definition?

00:35:26.040 First, common sense.

00:35:28.140 We know that a campaign expense is not literally any payment made, quote, for purpose of influencing an election.

00:35:35.760 And reading the statute that way would be way too broad.

00:35:39.580 For example, in 1999, Bill and Hillary Clinton bought a house in New York.

00:35:45.880 One reason they did so was so that Hillary could run for U.S. Senate from New York. 1.00

00:35:49.980 In other words, the expenditure was clearly done in part, quote, for the purpose of influencing an election.

00:35:57.580 Is it a campaign expenditure?

00:35:59.680 Under FICA, of course not.

00:36:01.520 Common sense.

00:36:03.820 How about if a would-be candidate pays a lawyer to seal old divorce records because he's afraid that if revealed, they would be damaging to his candidacy?

00:36:14.320 Campaign expense?

00:36:15.540 No, clearly not.

00:36:16.480 Even though done, quote, for the purpose of influencing an election.

00:36:20.720 Or suppose a business owner wants to settle pending lawsuits against his businesses before running for Congress.

00:36:26.860 He thinks the lawsuits are BS, but he's afraid the press will make a big deal of the allegations.

00:36:32.340 Can he pay the settlements with campaign funds?

00:36:35.140 The answer, obviously, is no.

00:36:37.440 Even though there is no legal obligation to pay them and the settlements would be paid specifically, quote, to influence an election.

00:36:46.820 In fact, in each of these examples, it would be unlawful to make the payments with campaign funds.

00:36:53.360 I'm going to take a pause here.

00:36:55.020 Understand what Alvin Bragg's argument is.

00:36:58.720 He's saying Trump had to use campaign funds to pay off Stormy Daniels. 1.00

00:37:05.300 That's an idiotic rule. 1.00

00:37:06.940 Yeah. 1.00

00:37:07.160 And by the way, it's a rule that says every candidate for public office, if you're paying to settle a lawsuit dealing with whether you had an affair, you must use your campaign funds to do so.

00:37:16.760 Now, that's absurd.

00:37:18.440 And what Brad Smith is saying is if you did that, the Federal Election Commission would go after you.

00:37:23.400 Let me go back to what Brad Smith, because he explains it a little bit more.

00:37:26.760 This is because and this is the part that that the judge left out of the jury instruction, didn't tell the jury.

00:37:33.280 So they didn't know this.

00:37:34.280 There's another part of FECA that the judge just said, ignore this part because it shows that Trump hasn't violated the law.

00:37:40.540 Brad Smith, former chairman of the FEC, charged with enforcing this law.

00:37:44.120 Yeah. Quote, this is because FECA also prohibits using campaign funds for, quote, personal use.

00:37:52.260 So you've got to ask, is it personal use?

00:37:54.080 If yes, you can't use campaign funds.

00:37:56.840 A.K.A. Hillary Clinton buying a house.

00:37:58.440 Right.

00:37:58.740 In New York.

00:37:59.260 Exactly.

00:38:00.600 What is, quote, personal use?

00:38:02.440 Under Federal Election Commission regulations, and the FEC has primary authority for interpreting the law, it is any obligation that would exist irrespective of the candidacy.

00:38:15.080 Indeed, the FEC regulations make clear that a mixed motive doesn't make something a campaign expense.

00:38:21.260 If the obligation would exist irrespective of the campaign, paying it with campaign funds is personal use and therefore illegal.

00:38:32.400 Certainly, Daniels used the campaign to pressure Trump and for the most money she could. 1.00

00:38:37.660 The timing affected the value of the allegations.

00:38:41.940 But the obligation didn't exist because Trump was a candidate.

00:38:47.340 It predated his candidacy and it was not created by his being a candidate.

00:38:51.980 She could have shook him down for hush money at any point.

00:38:55.280 Right.

00:38:55.620 Whether or not he was running for president.

00:38:57.620 Brad didn't say that.

00:38:58.300 I said that.

00:39:00.120 Brad continues.

00:39:01.000 Let's use common sense.

00:39:04.140 Is it a campaign expense to pay a nondisclosure agreement for something arising out of events ten years earlier and not caused by the act of being a candidate?

00:39:15.620 Candidate is paying hush money a campaign expense.

00:39:20.640 Duh.

00:39:21.620 No.

00:39:23.000 And we wouldn't want it to be.

00:39:24.680 This is really important.

00:39:25.940 We wouldn't want it to be.

00:39:27.200 We don't want candidates using campaign funds to pay personal expenses.

00:39:31.080 Whether new clothes, a weight loss program, or a gym membership.

00:39:35.960 Purchased to help the candidate look better and therefore, quote, for the purpose of influencing an election.

00:39:41.440 You can't use campaign finance funds for that.

00:39:43.920 So when you're running for office, just to be very clear on his point, you can't say I'm going to take a $50,000 wardrobe for all these campaign events because it's still technically closed for you personally.

00:39:53.380 Yeah.

00:39:53.640 You can't do that at all.

00:39:54.580 You can't buy your clothes using campaign funds.

00:39:56.520 Can't say I need a haircut and I'm going to get one every day or every three days.

00:39:59.900 You can't do any of that.

00:40:00.420 You cannot do – and they'll go after you for it.

00:40:03.780 If you do it, they will go after you for personal use.

00:40:07.480 Let me finish what he said.

00:40:08.980 He only had a couple more.

00:40:10.180 And certainly not to pay nondisclosure agreements to keep embarrassing info hidden.

00:40:16.900 In summary, for the purpose of influencing an election is an objective standard.

00:40:21.360 The motive of the donor or the spender doesn't matter.

00:40:24.200 So what are expenditures?

00:40:26.620 Paying campaign staff are expenditures.

00:40:28.940 Paying ads for the candidate.

00:40:32.620 Paying fundraising costs.

00:40:34.580 Paying a campaign accountant.

00:40:36.300 Paying for polling.

00:40:37.640 Travel to campaign events.

00:40:39.100 It's basically all the obligations you incur solely because you are running for office.

00:40:45.840 The FEC's approach is consistent with the U.S. Supreme Court, which is consistently held in every case since FICA was passed 50 years ago, that its definition of contribution and expenditure must be objective, not subjective to avoid being unconstitutionally vague.

00:41:02.480 None of that went to the jury.

00:41:04.760 So the jury was just told, well, if it if it could influence the election, you've got to find it's a violation of law.

00:41:10.660 That is flat out false.

00:41:12.500 And they were not told.

00:41:13.800 If Trump had done what Alvin Bragg said he needed to do, the FEC would have charged him with a personal use violation with using campaign funds illegally.

00:41:26.820 The jury didn't know that because the judge didn't want him to know that.

00:41:30.180 And that's why they said you can't come and testify.

00:41:33.780 Yes.

00:41:34.100 And he also prevented the lawyers from arguing this.

00:41:38.300 But by the way, so that was one ground.

00:41:40.460 The other two grounds that could be unlawful means and you could have three jurors on one and five on another and four on it like they could mix and match.

00:41:48.000 The other ground.

00:41:48.800 Have you ever heard of a jury where that was it?

00:41:50.460 No.

00:41:50.560 OK.

00:41:50.920 I don't think people understand.

00:41:52.920 Weird.

00:41:53.320 That usually it's you either got to be all in lockstep.

00:41:56.580 Yeah.

00:41:57.360 Or you're not.

00:41:58.580 So it's either you're innocent or guilty because the 12 agree and or if they disagree, one of them disagrees.

00:42:03.100 We're done.

00:42:03.860 Find the elements of the crime.

00:42:05.040 He said, find your own path to to guilty.

00:42:09.040 Yeah.

00:42:09.280 Whatever you want.

00:42:10.300 The objective is guilty.

00:42:11.660 You come up with however you want to get there.

00:42:13.860 All right.

00:42:14.060 So one was the federal campaign finance law and his instructions are woefully deficient.

00:42:18.840 He only includes part of the rule.

00:42:20.680 He leaves out the other half, which is explains why Trump shouldn't have done so.

00:42:25.400 And it would have been a mistake to do it the way the prosecutor wanted him to.

00:42:28.740 And he would have been charged with it.

00:42:30.220 I mean, it would have been he would have been violating the law to do what Alvin Bragg is saying he should have done.

00:42:38.020 Another supposed basis of unlawful means was falsification of other business records.

00:42:45.020 The second of the people's theories, this is from the jury instruction.

00:42:49.040 The second of the people's theories of unlawful means, which I will define for you now, is the falsification of other business records for purposes of determining whether falsifying business records in the second degree was an unlawful means used by a conspiracy to promote or prevent election here.

00:43:03.220 However, you may consider the bank records associated with Michael Cohen's account formation, the bank records association with Michael Cohen's wire to Keith Davidson, the invoice from investor advisory services and the 1099 misc form the Trump organization issued to Michael Cohen.

00:43:16.980 So, in other words, there are 34 counts of false business records.

00:43:23.400 They're all the identical charge.

00:43:26.760 They just occur 34 different times, 34 different entries in the bookmarks.

00:43:31.040 What he's saying is, you know what?

00:43:33.240 Every one of these is a misdemeanor.

00:43:35.840 But if you say you made one of these entries to assist in another of these entries, then they're all felonies.

00:43:42.660 Wow.

00:43:43.720 Like like it is the most circular reasoning that just makes no sense.

00:43:50.060 And by the way, let's go to the third one, because the third one just makes me laugh out loud.

00:43:57.040 The people's third theory of unlawful means, which I will define for you now, is a violation of tax laws.

00:44:03.320 Under New York State and New York City law, it is unlawful to knowingly supply or submit materially false or fraudulent information in connection with any tax return.

00:44:11.640 Likewise, under federal law, it is unlawful for a person to willfully make any tax return statement or other document that is fraudulent or false as in any material matter.

00:44:20.060 Or that the person does not believe to be true and correct as to every material matter.

00:44:25.020 Now, listen to this last sentence.

00:44:27.320 Under these federal, state and local laws, such conduct is unlawful, even if it does not result in the underpayment of taxes.

00:44:35.380 So, in other words, he told the jury, by the way, you can find a violation of tax laws, even if you paid you didn't pay any less taxes, even if you didn't defraud anyone, even if you're not using it to cheat on your taxes.

00:44:47.460 If you think there's something in the tax laws, and by the way, there is no person on planet Earth who understands all of the tax laws.

00:44:54.880 You know, there was a book that was written years ago called Three Felonies a Day, and it argues that all of us living in this complex world commit three felonies a day between tax laws and environmental laws.

00:45:05.120 There's just so much regulations if you are doing anything, if you're filling out a credit card application, an aggressive prosecutor can find three felonies a day that Ben Ferguson has committed.

00:45:16.020 In this instance, that jury instruction says, well, if you can figure out, if you think there was any violation.

00:45:22.800 Come up with your own theory, basically.

00:45:24.160 Come up with your own theory.

00:45:25.060 And by the way, the violation of tax law doesn't have to have taken a penny of taxes from New York City, New York State, or the federal government.

00:45:33.940 And if you think there was some amorphous violation of tax law that didn't result in any underpayment of taxes, suddenly, presto chango, these misdemeanors that we can't prosecute, the statute of limitations is extended.

00:45:49.880 They're now felonies, and we can sentence Donald Trump to 100 years in jail, 134 years in jail.

00:45:55.440 In other words, orange man bad, find your way to figure out how to say he's guilty.

00:46:00.860 That's exactly what this was all about.

00:46:04.100 This is politics.

00:46:06.020 It'll get reversed on appeal.

00:46:08.320 But the judge doesn't care.

00:46:09.840 He knows that.

00:46:11.400 The purpose is what Alex Soros said.

00:46:14.900 The purpose is what Joe Biden said.

00:46:16.800 The purpose is all the Democrats and all the media get to call him a felon over and over and over again between now and Election Day.

00:46:25.520 This is a five-month battle.

00:46:27.120 It's not a five-year battle.

00:46:28.340 The purpose is not to put Donald Trump in jail.

00:46:31.080 They know that's not going to happen.

00:46:33.140 It costs the election.

00:46:34.180 They are trying to win.

00:46:36.480 This is about keeping Joe Biden and the Democrats in power because it's all they care about,

00:46:41.160 and they're willing to burn the justice system to the ground to keep the Democrats in power.

00:46:47.500 One more question I want to ask of you, and it deals with what's next for Trump.

00:46:51.160 But before we do that, I want to say thank you to so many of you that are listeners and watchers of this podcast

00:46:57.640 for getting involved with the International Fellowship of Christians and Jews.

00:47:02.780 Since the terror attack on October the 7th, anti-Semitism has been on the rise, not just in Israel,

00:47:08.640 but here at home in the U.S. and around the world.

00:47:11.160 And that is why I partnered with the International Fellowship of Christians and Jews

00:47:15.360 to make a difference for the needs of those in Israel right now.

00:47:20.580 They are asking for help when it comes to actually giving and putting up bomb shelters

00:47:26.320 as well as the supplies you need while you are in that bomb shelter.

00:47:30.780 For the month of June, we're asking Christians to sign this pledge, 0.93

00:47:35.100 which will deliver to the President of Israel to show that Christians in America 0.98

00:47:39.980 are not only standing in solidarity, but they are speaking up as well.

00:47:44.400 So let's take a stand today with the International Fellowship of Christians and Jews

00:47:48.800 and let the Jewish people know that they are not alone.

00:47:53.100 They need your help.

00:47:54.360 And if you're ready to pledge to stand side by side with your Jewish brothers and sisters

00:47:59.040 to never be silent, to show the Jewish people that they're not alone,

00:48:03.340 that they have God and Christians standing by their side.

00:48:08.780 To sign the pledge, go to supportifcj.org.

00:48:13.380 That is supportifcj.org to take a stand today, help the people in Israel again.

00:48:21.120 Sign the pledge and stand with our brothers and sisters in Israel.

00:48:25.060 Go to supportifcj.org.

00:48:28.820 That's supportifcj.org to take a stand today.

00:48:33.600 Senator, final question for you, and this goes back to the last podcast.

00:48:38.080 You were conflicted on what Trump's plan should be next.

00:48:43.360 Do you go to the Supreme Court?

00:48:45.160 Do you try to get there quickly?

00:48:47.300 Or is there a way to force this case moving forward?

00:48:50.160 Now, knowing the jury instructions and what they were given and, most importantly,

00:48:56.100 what they had admitted from them, does this open up any different legal pathway for the

00:49:02.060 Trump team to say, OK, we need to get this seen even quicker so it isn't, hey, we got

00:49:07.920 what we wanted.

00:49:08.640 We get to say you're a convicted felon all the way through Election Day.

00:49:11.500 Can this speed up the process or no?

00:49:13.320 So let me answer that, but let me answer that in connection to a question that people ask

00:49:18.740 quite a bit, which is what's the sentence going to be?

00:49:20.720 We've got the sentence.

00:49:21.640 We know that it's just a few days before the Republican convention.

00:49:25.200 And a lot of folks are asking, is the judge going to sentence Trump to jail time?

00:49:29.420 I think there's a very real chance the judge sentenced Trump to jail time.

00:49:32.980 I think this is a vicious partisan.

00:49:35.380 I think he hates Donald Trump.

00:49:36.720 I think he's willing to abuse his power.

00:49:38.200 But I will wager large sums of money, regardless of what he sentences him to, jail time or something

00:49:44.280 else, that if there is incarceration, he will suspend it pending appeal.

00:49:51.480 I think that I could see the judge at sentencing saying, I sentence you to four years in jail.

00:49:57.640 Or 40.

00:49:58.560 No, no, I don't think he would.

00:49:59.900 I do think you've got four years for each of these 34 counts is the maximum amount.

00:50:05.020 Typically, they would run concurrently, which means they would all run at the same time.

00:50:10.640 You could run them consecutively, which is how you get over 100 years.

00:50:14.320 In any ordinary circumstance, number one, a judge of Trump's age that does not have any

00:50:18.380 prior offenses in New York would never serve a day of jail time in any other case.

00:50:23.440 I mean, look, you can physically assault someone.

00:50:25.920 You can repeatedly, violently beat people up.

00:50:28.840 You can engage in all sorts of crimes and not serve jail time in New York.

00:50:33.340 That being said, I think it's entirely possible this judge is enough of a partisan to say,

00:50:39.040 you're the president.

00:50:40.620 What you did mattered.

00:50:42.420 I'm sentencing you to four years in jail.

00:50:44.380 I could see him.

00:50:45.260 He would love that.

00:50:46.460 That would be the crowning moment of his life to utter those words.

00:50:50.620 It'd also be useful politically because then not only can you say he's a convicted felon,

00:50:55.320 but then you can say, do you want a guy going to the White House that's about to go to jail?

00:50:58.840 Yeah.

00:50:58.920 So what I do not think he will do is sentence him to jail and say, take him into custody and

00:51:06.740 put him there right now.

00:51:07.460 He could.

00:51:08.720 But I think if he did that, it would prompt an immediate emergency appeal and he would

00:51:13.220 get reversed.

00:51:14.440 I assume this guy is smart enough to know that.

00:51:17.440 He doesn't want to get reversed and he especially does not want to get reversed before Election

00:51:23.940 Day.

00:51:24.220 He's engaged in politics.

00:51:25.960 So he's not going to do something, I think, that will prompt an immediate reversal because

00:51:32.100 that undermines the political value of the charade that he's conducting.

00:51:36.120 So if the sentence is imprisonment or it could be home confinement, if the sentence is something

00:51:45.600 like that, I think he'll suspend it pending the resolution of the appeal.

00:51:49.560 In that case, I think the odds are quite high.

00:51:52.580 This appeal will have to go through the New York state system first.

00:51:57.100 We talked about in Friday's pod.

00:51:58.980 And by the way, you should go back and listen to Friday's pod.

00:52:01.220 We did Friday's pod late Thursday night.

00:52:04.060 We did it on the road as I was driving from Dallas to Houston.

00:52:07.200 It was right after the verdict came down and it was analyzing the next steps in much greater

00:52:12.560 detail than we have in this pod.

00:52:15.420 And so you ought to listen to the two pods together.

00:52:18.220 But the ordinary course of appeal would be to appeal from the trial court to the intermediate

00:52:23.520 appellate court in New York in the state court system.

00:52:26.440 And then if you lose in the intermediate appellate court to appeal to the top appellate court

00:52:30.880 in New York called the New York Court of Appeals.

00:52:34.060 And then finally, if you lose there, then you could appeal to the U.S. Supreme Court.

00:52:38.660 That's normally how a criminal case would proceed.

00:52:42.180 It is possible you can file an extraordinary writ to ask the U.S. Supreme Court to intervene

00:52:48.860 right now.

00:52:49.520 But it is very, very, very rare.

00:52:53.040 There is a chance.

00:52:54.340 And as I'm sure the Trump legal team is debating this right now, there's a chance the court

00:52:58.960 would say yes.

00:53:00.680 But I think it's probably unlikely.

00:53:03.160 I think the court's instinct, particularly if a sentence is suspended, if the judge ordered

00:53:09.220 Trump put in jail, the Supreme Court would say yes.

00:53:12.360 It would force the court to say yes.

00:53:14.340 So if the sentence is suspended and Trump is free to campaign, free to debate, free to

00:53:20.280 go to the convention, I think the justices instincts will be, you know what?

00:53:26.120 The New York state courts might correct this.

00:53:28.220 The court of appeals might reverse this.

00:53:29.660 The intermediate court of appeals might reverse this.

00:53:31.760 They might get it right.

00:53:33.160 And there's a long ethos at the court, which is if we don't need to act, we don't need

00:53:38.400 to act.

00:53:38.820 If someone else can fix this, if another level of the justice system can fix this, the U.S.

00:53:44.160 Supreme Court doesn't need to step in. 1.00

00:53:45.560 That's their general approach.

00:53:46.980 If they were to deny the extraordinary writ, I suspect you would have some justices write

00:53:53.200 and say something like, there are lots of reasons to be concerned here, but right now

00:53:58.080 the sentence is suspended.

00:53:59.580 The verdict can be overturned on appeal.

00:54:01.960 And so we'll allow the state proceedings to go forward.

00:54:07.020 If there was an order of immediate incarceration, it would force their hands.

00:54:10.960 Um, I think the whole game here from the D.A. and from the judge is the political advantage

00:54:18.700 not actually sending Trump to jail.

00:54:21.660 They know these these jury instructions will never survive an appeal.

00:54:25.820 Uh, if you had anything resembling fairness in the judicial system, the New York courts of

00:54:31.500 appeals should reverse it.

00:54:32.640 I got to say, based on the absolute disgrace we just saw play out, I have no confidence of

00:54:38.500 that.

00:54:38.700 The New York justice system is, I suspect, forever a global laughingstock.

00:54:44.560 And you put this on top of the prior civil case where they took a half billion dollars

00:54:48.640 and they're trying to take a half billion dollars from Trump.

00:54:50.640 The combination, the message New York has said is if we don't like you, if you are politically

00:54:55.840 disfavored, welcome to communist Cuba.

00:54:59.160 We will treat you the same and you have the same rights as you would have locked in a gulag. 0.79

00:55:05.240 This is going to be interesting to see how it plays out.

00:55:07.040 It's going to be interesting to see what the poll numbers say this week.

00:55:09.560 We're going to cover it all.

00:55:10.740 Don't forget, we do the show Monday, Wednesday, Friday.

00:55:13.200 Hit that subscribe or auto download button.

00:55:15.560 And on those in-between days, there's a lot of breaking news.

00:55:17.760 Grab my podcast as well, the Ben Ferguson podcast, and I will keep you up to date on

00:55:21.620 those in-between days.

00:55:22.960 Make sure if you didn't get to watch this on YouTube, watch it on YouTube.

00:55:26.840 You'll get to see those clips and this famous smirk of Joe Biden.

00:55:30.200 And the Senate, I will see you back here in a couple of days.

00:55:34.100 This is an iHeart Podcast.

00:55:37.000 Guaranteed Human.

Verdict with Ted Cruz - June 03, 2024

The Smirk Heard Around the World： Dems Celebrate & We Break Down Why Trump Verdict WILL Be Reversed

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