Western Standard - Alberta doc’s probe into possible vax-related stillbirth gets pushback

00:00:00.000 You

00:00:30.000 Let's go.

00:01:00.000 Thank you.

00:01:30.000 Good evening. I'm Melanie Rizdin with the Western Standard. Thanks for joining me and also joining

00:01:36.720 me this evening is Dr. Gregory Chan. He is a family physician out of Pinocchio and not only

00:01:43.640 does he treat all sorts of people in his family practice, but he also handles low risk deliveries

00:01:49.920 for babies. And that's what we're going to be talking about Dr. Chan tonight. And so we'll

00:01:56.820 invite him to join us right now thanks for joining me tonight uh dr chan and really appreciate it

00:02:02.660 we're uh we're to say to win that you have recently been through with a patient who

00:02:11.540 suffered the loss of a child yes um so um i had a patient that um unfortunately had a stillbirth

00:02:22.500 recently and it was an unexpected thing. And there's some questions that came up from this

00:02:37.780 person's experience and their medical history that brought some questions to mind as far as

00:02:44.260 why it happens. I think that that's a question that happens in any situation when there's an

00:02:50.580 unexpected loss like this but there are some specific questions that came up

00:02:56.220 regarding having recently received one of the COVID vaccines. Now you've been

00:03:04.200 treating patients and and also doing deliveries for 12 years you said so

00:03:11.400 well experienced how many how many babies would you say you've assisted in

00:03:15.540 in delivering? I don't keep track. It's hard to keep track of that. Yeah, I'm sure. I'm sure it's

00:03:24.620 many. So this was one of the patients that you were sort of doing the wellness checks on and

00:03:32.680 you sort of take them through their pregnancy up to delivery. And then as long as there are

00:03:37.120 no complications, you would do the delivery. But you had mentioned that this patient was about

00:03:44.680 halfway through her pregnancy that's correct okay and then so um it was 21 to 22 weeks

00:03:55.480 when is that when you had the uh the regular routine um uh check up with the patient and

00:04:04.200 realized that there might have been something wrong with the baby yeah um so the uh um

00:04:11.160 um, they, they'd come in, um, uh, probably about a month after that, uh, they had an,

00:04:19.480 there's usually an ultrasound that happens halfway through the pregnancy. That ultrasound

00:04:24.300 looks at the baby from head to toe. And it also looks at where the placenta is located. Um, so

00:04:31.200 it's a, it's a general ultrasound to see if, um, how, how the baby looks, um, from head to toe.

00:04:37.380 that ultrasound is normal at that that point it was the next check up after that where there is

00:04:47.880 a problem that was identified in the wellness check at the clinic so that was a you said about

00:04:55.740 a month after that ultrasound that showed baby was progressing fine that's correct okay and so

00:05:03.960 what happens at that stage for you you continue with the patient does the

00:05:08.340 patient go on to somebody else typically if there's a if there's if it's still a

00:05:19.180 low-risk pregnancy then and the patient wants to deliver in in Pinocchio then I

00:05:24.060 would continue to look after the patient there's a group of us that deliver

00:05:30.060 babies at the hospital so they would see each of us in the clinic so that that's typically what 0.71

00:05:37.820 would happen if everything was going well on the wellness checks so she went on for further testing

00:05:45.100 when you identified that there was a problem that's correct when there was a problem identified 0.97

00:05:50.940 then we arranged for to get an urgent ultrasound and unfortunately the ultrasound showed that the

00:05:57.020 the um baby had uh had died and this occurred just shortly after that anatomy ultrasound okay

00:06:07.340 now the fact that we are looking at the potential for this being an adverse event

00:06:14.460 at what point had she been vaccinated to to the confirmed loss of the child

00:06:20.780 um i believe that the vaccination occurred um after talking with the patient it occurred

00:06:28.300 in the second trimester of the pregnancy okay so then what happened

00:06:37.340 um so once we identified that unfortunately the baby had passed away that i consulted the

00:06:45.660 specialists in our larger hospital that we usually refer to and they agreed to see the patient and

00:06:53.100 help them with medical care afterwards and at what point was it that you thought it would be a good

00:07:02.060 idea to have the placenta looked at or biopsied um to see you know like what what happened there i

00:07:11.820 I know I know that you had mentioned that you had a bit of a strange response to your

00:07:18.040 request.

00:07:19.040 Yeah, my thinking, thinking behind this is that the the COVID vaccines are new.

00:07:27.600 They haven't knew in that they haven't been used in the general public, although we've

00:07:32.540 we know about the technology, we've understood it and have investigated it for decades.

00:07:39.640 hasn't really been used in the general public until the vaccines have rolled out in the end of 2020.

00:07:48.440 So my thinking is that we aren't fully aware of what the effects are of the vaccines

00:07:59.560 for the general public. I think a lot of people have received them with very minimal side effects,

00:08:05.080 But if there are new things that happen after receiving the vaccines, then I think there's a possibility that it could be linked.

00:08:19.060 So chronologically, if there's the vaccine, a person receives the vaccine, and then there's a medical event that happens afterwards, I believe it's important to see if there's a link between the two.

00:08:29.500 and so that's what you were trying to do the follow-up after after your patient lost her

00:08:39.100 baby that's correct so this is an idea that I had to investigate whether there is any expression of

00:08:48.820 the spike protein in the placenta from what I understand there are some bio distribution studies

00:08:57.700 that were released by Pfizer that show that the mRNA delivery vehicle, which is the lipid

00:09:05.380 nanoparticles, that those can be found in organs that are distant from the site of injection.

00:09:12.420 So knowing that piece of information, then the question came up in my mind whether the spike

00:09:20.020 protein could be expressed in other tissues far away from the site of injection.

00:09:28.260 so you wanted to have the the um placenta biopsy or or studied for that

00:09:34.980 and um what were you told um well initially the the response was um uh

00:09:45.940 it was uh um the the they were thinking they were wondering whether it's asking about

00:09:52.740 testing for covid within the placenta which um which could can be done but that's a that's a

00:09:59.940 different kind of test that's actually looking for the genetic fragments which would be similar to

00:10:04.900 the pcr testing that a lot of people have already had um so you're saying you could you could test

00:10:11.540 the placenta for covid essentially but you were more so looking to see if there was the spike

00:10:18.580 protein from the vaccine is that correct that's correct okay so there's a there's a few back and

00:10:26.580 forth emails with the pathology department and at the end of the day we that type of testing

00:10:34.820 is not readily available in in our province now you mentioned that you have to go outside of

00:10:44.020 Canada by the sounds of it to have this testing done. Is that correct?

00:10:48.900 That's correct. So I could either have one of the universities assist me with testing the tissue

00:11:00.580 and that would be subject to going through the usual processes like getting an ethics approval

00:11:08.020 and then obtaining a person to investigate it like a person who's on faculty in the

00:11:15.460 department of medicine or other faculties in universities essentially doing a study right

00:11:21.700 that's correct it's like a reason for research purposes

00:11:25.700 but the other option is to send the tissue to the united states

00:11:29.700 where they they can do testing to see if the spike protein is expressed in in tissue

00:11:37.380 Now, you, I think, I think the general, what was the general consensus felt around your request?

00:11:48.360 Not necessarily pushback, but what, what, you know, what, what surprised you about it?

00:11:56.800 I think the thing that was interesting was that it, we, that we don't have the ability to test for the spike protein.

00:12:05.100 um and that there was um there was uncertainty as far as what to do with this request it seemed like

00:12:11.820 it was an it was a novel request that it was something that they hadn't come across yet

00:12:18.780 and this request was made um in the fall of 2021 so um that's about a year and a half almost

00:12:28.540 into the pandemic okay so uh in the fall of 2020 oh sorry the fall of 2021 so just recently so just

00:12:39.360 a few months i see okay made the request that you made the request i see okay so so in in your mind

00:12:47.920 as you know a medical expert you're thinking this makes sense this makes sense to look further into

00:12:56.020 this this makes sense because really these vaccines have been you know being used for a very

00:13:01.860 short time especially in um pregnant individuals uh you had talked about that you hadn't seen

00:13:09.460 a lot of research on the vaccine within the pregnant pregnant population correct

00:13:16.660 and that's correct so if you look at the drug monographs for the vaccines um it's specifically 0.99

00:13:22.340 states that pregnant pregnant women were excluded from the studies however since the vaccines have

00:13:28.740 been introduced into the general population then there are pregnant women that have decided to get

00:13:34.260 the vaccines and they've there are a few studies that are looking at the effects of of the vaccines

00:13:40.420 in pregnancy and i think for the most part the women who have decided to get the vaccines and

00:13:50.500 And from the studies that have been published, it looks like in the third trimester, there

00:13:56.640 really isn't any signals that have come up.

00:14:01.300 But I think the questions that are uncertain are what happens in the first and second trimester?

00:14:06.180 Do we have a lot of information about that?

00:14:08.600 And I think the information is not really clear at this point what the effects are, if

00:14:15.820 any at all.

00:14:17.080 So I think it's important to ask the question and to look.

00:14:20.500 right and so I guess that's the impression that I got when I was

00:14:26.080 speaking with you earlier that you were quite surprised that this wasn't being

00:14:32.980 questioned more this wasn't sort of being tracked more that's correct I think

00:14:40.380 that this is similar to the experience I have with submitting adverse events to

00:14:47.800 the adverse event following immunization program so when you try and try and you know

00:14:57.240 indicate that there is a chronological association between receiving a treatment and then new

00:15:03.880 symptoms or worse symptoms for a patient then it's it's not easy to do it and it's um there's

00:15:12.680 uh there there doesn't seem to be a lot of traction to um collect this kind of information

00:15:20.920 or to look deeper in to whether there is a an actual link between the two events between

00:15:27.160 vaccination and then new symptoms yeah and that seems strange to me uh as you had mentioned it's

00:15:36.040 strange to you that you know in a field where you know things are discovered, advancements are made,

00:15:45.960 things change, data changes, it seems odd that there isn't more of an effort to put or effort

00:15:55.080 put into tracking these adverse events or even looking into looking into them further

00:16:02.440 were trying to do for your patient yes and and i and i fully fully realized that there are a lot

00:16:10.120 of people that have had it and really haven't had any any side effects but um and a lot of people

00:16:17.960 have had side effects that fit with the um the drug monograph but um we're still in the the

00:16:26.600 clinical trials aren't ending until the end of 2022 or 2023 and i think that

00:16:36.280 once a medication is released there's post post marketing analysis that has to happen

00:16:43.240 i think this technology is is new and for the general population to be using it then we really

00:16:50.920 need to be paying attention to any safety signals that come up and we need to collect that information

00:16:57.400 and investigate it with um with uh the same rigor that we're using with any any process

00:17:05.720 when you're applying a new treatment and we should be paying attention to it

00:17:10.920 and why do you think that's not happening

00:17:12.520 um to be honest i i'm not 100 sure i think that there is there are reasons that are um

00:17:25.400 probably they're they're patient factors that people want to get on with their lives and get

00:17:31.240 back to normal and i think that type of mentality is is very common that people are done with the

00:17:36.760 pandemic and they've been told that once they get the vaccine then they're fine so my experience is

00:17:44.120 that when i see patients that present with new symptoms and i ask them about any recent events

00:17:51.160 or recent things that may have triggered these new symptoms patients are generally not forthcoming

00:17:58.040 about having recently had the vaccine i actually have to ask them questions that are specific

00:18:03.800 and pointed directly i have to ask them have you had a vaccine in the last three to four weeks

00:18:09.620 so i think patients don't really have that on the tip of their mind or the on the tip of the tongue

00:18:15.020 as far as what could be causing the new symptoms so you're thinking that people aren't aren't doing

00:18:20.620 the relationship even on their own they're not even thinking well you know this this is the

00:18:25.600 thing that's changed and perhaps this is do you think people are missing that yeah i suspect that

00:18:31.820 people have once they get the shot they kind of don't think about it and they

00:18:35.140 carry on with their lives and I don't think that they they make that

00:18:38.960 association in general from what I've seen when I look see people in the

00:18:43.360 office or see people in the emergency department some people do but I think in

00:18:49.860 general most don't make that do you think that's happening on the medical

00:18:57.620 professional side as well do you think there's you know do you think that

00:19:02.900 there's a sentiment or or an attitude of faith so much faith in these vaccines

00:19:12.140 being the answer that it's almost that you you know people are choosing not to

00:19:18.220 recognize that there could be causal links between vaccines and injury on

00:19:24.460 the medical side of things you know and i think that um from the medical side of things our

00:19:30.540 our understanding has changed over time um if i remember and back to when the vaccines were

00:19:37.660 initially um rolling out that the that the thinking was that um if you've had your shots

00:19:45.260 then you're fine right if you have your shots then you're protected if you have your shots

00:19:50.300 then it won't transmit to other people so i mean this is the understanding when we first

00:19:55.580 when the vaccines first came out and understandably we didn't know no um any more than that

00:20:03.580 but as time passes then i think the original thinking was still ingrained in a lot of

00:20:11.180 in in some of the medical community that once you've had your shots you're fine once you've

00:20:17.180 you've had your shots you won't transmit and that type of thing he was ingrained

00:20:21.180 and in the medical community with your patient you had mentioned that you have

00:20:31.520 an option you've now discovered an option of potentially sending the

00:20:36.800 placenta for for biopsy or for study into the States are you still looking

00:20:42.520 into that option and what's entailed with that yes the the pathology department has been very

00:20:49.320 helpful in in um setting that up so we're currently in the process of trying to figure out the

00:20:56.680 logistics of this so the costs and time frames and um so it's it's an option that we're exploring

00:21:04.120 now you did mention that you have expressed an interest to cover costs hopefully they're not um

00:21:13.720 you know too exorbitant but you is that uh to cover the cost of having this study done uh is that to

00:21:22.440 you know um even further educate you on the process or a situation um what's what's the

00:21:29.800 reasoning behind that well i think um you know in speaking with the the patient um they're they have

00:21:38.760 they're wondering but they're they're um really the the question originated with me so it was my

00:21:46.280 own questioning and wondering why why did this happen and is there an association or not so um

00:21:54.200 because i'm the person who asked the question um and i did get consent from the patient to

00:21:58.920 go ahead with this process um i'm because i'm the one with the question i'm going to be covering the

00:22:05.480 cost for it i see okay well i um i would be interested if you would uh let us know what

00:22:13.080 what comes of it and um you know uh yeah i i would be very interested to know what what you discover

00:22:20.520 and and uh you know what what can you suggest or what would you like to see done differently

00:22:27.880 I mean, because I think we can conclude here that being that we're still in trial phase for

00:22:36.600 these vaccines, as you mentioned, until 2023, and we're vaccinating pregnant people through

00:22:45.080 different trimesters, and the findings are perhaps there's less adverse events that happen

00:22:53.080 in, you know, third trimester versus first or second, what would you like to see done differently?

00:22:59.640 Well, I think what I'd like to see is that there's more data. If we don't report that there's

00:23:07.400 something that's happened chronologically, then we don't know. We don't know if there's

00:23:11.560 anything happening at all. Once we get used to reporting these events, then we can say with

00:23:18.200 greater confidence whether these events are are real or not um let's say for example um for example

00:23:27.640 people are would get a whole bunch of gastrointestinal side effects after having a

00:23:32.440 the vaccine and that's this is just theoretical but if if it does happen and we start asking the

00:23:40.120 question and there's quite a few of these events that are occurring then then that's a safety

00:23:45.880 signal that comes up. And then hopefully that drives more research into determining the

00:23:52.520 mechanisms of why that happens. So in the same way, if we see something like this happen,

00:24:01.880 in this case, the stillbirth, then this is part of the process to ask the question,

00:24:06.840 is there an association? And if there is, then how frequent is this happening?

00:24:12.120 and if the frequency is is low then then it's low but if the frequency isn't low then

00:24:20.920 that's something for us to pay attention to so that's my reasoning behind asking the question

00:24:27.640 we need more data we need more more information to make

00:24:31.480 logical conclusions of whether there's any association or not with vaccination

00:24:37.000 yeah and more awareness on both sides of the patient and the medical professionals that

00:24:43.800 you know to discuss these things and talk about them and and feel safe and for you to be able to

00:24:50.100 do so and I know you had mentioned that reporting an adverse event can be and be quite tedious

00:24:56.500 Yeah, the actual process is an online form that you'd submit, but the steps that happen

00:25:10.420 after that, it's not a guarantee that that submission will be accepted because there

00:25:19.720 some criteria that they're trying to to sort through whether every every event that's reported

00:25:26.760 if it's actually linked to the vaccine or not um so there are some processes that that happen after

00:25:36.600 um after i submit a form that i'm not i have no no understanding of or no no control over

00:25:45.320 but I think it's important that we we just start submitting them we start

00:25:49.820 collecting that information and reporting it if if it happens I'm

00:25:54.540 curious at this stage have you submitted that for the patient that had the

00:25:59.640 stillbirth yes I have well I agree with you it would be nice to be able to have

00:26:07.840 a little bit more information and to know you know if there are certain people

00:26:11.780 within the population uh with with certain you know health conditions where maybe these vaccines

00:26:18.420 aren't as safe for them uh you know different trimesters within pregnancy so agreed uh i think

00:26:25.140 that uh calling on the the health community and people alike to just raise the awareness of being

00:26:32.340 more conscious of these um of these events reporting them talking about them freely i think is

00:26:39.700 is as important as you do for sure and i think there's a recent example that we can point to

00:26:45.780 that shows our the change in our understanding of adverse events after these vaccines so if

00:26:52.580 you look at the myocarditis thing you know back in the spring and summer it was mentioned that

00:27:01.140 myocarditis could be a side effect from the vaccines but it wasn't greatly associated with

00:27:08.900 the vaccines. And then you see in October that Scandinavian countries have paused the use of one

00:27:15.540 of the vaccines for those under the age of 30. So and then subsequently in Alberta, now we

00:27:23.720 preferentially choose one vaccine over another for that reason. So our understanding changes over

00:27:30.700 time and understanding changes because there's more safety signals that have come up and people

00:27:38.140 are people in the medical community should be paying attention to those and then chain making

00:27:44.220 recommendations based on that and we've seen it happen with myocarditis um association with some

00:27:51.100 of the vaccines so i think it's important that we we do that not only for for other other um

00:27:58.220 other conditions that um that could be related so we have to collect that information report it

00:28:04.540 and then examine the signals to see where where they you know which which systems are involved

00:28:10.940 which body systems are involved um with with the adverse events yeah agreed uh the the blanket

00:28:20.220 safety you know uh statement this is safe and effective i think um especially considering

00:28:27.500 we're still in trial phase is uh i think it's a dangerous statement to make

00:28:33.980 And I think caution is important, and so I don't want to recommend something that is

00:28:43.620 a concern.

00:28:45.900 And I also want to tell people when I'm recommending treatments, I want to be able to tell them

00:28:51.320 this is really the risks and the benefits.

00:28:54.900 And then a person, a patient can make an informed decision on what they want to do.

00:29:01.380 is critical in in our health care well thank you dr. Chan I appreciate your time filling us in on

00:29:11.380 the situation and again I would really welcome an update from you if you're willing just keep

00:29:18.180 us in the loop of how things turn out and thanks for joining us that'd be great thank you very much

00:29:31.380 Transcription by CastingWords

Western Standard - December 17, 2021

Alberta doc’s probe into possible vax-related stillbirth gets pushback

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