Alberta RCMP announce conclusion to high-profile investigation
Episode Stats
Length
1 hour and 28 minutes
Words per Minute
69.430984
Summary
In this episode, we discuss the United Conservative Party Leadership Contest Winner, Jeff Calloway. In July 2017, the Wildrose Party and the Progressive Conservative Party merged into one party, the Unitedterritorial Conservative Party, and a UCP leadership contest was called. . On October 28, 2017, former PC candidate Jeff Callaway dropped out of the race and publicly endorsed Jason Kenney as the new UCP leader.
Transcript
00:09:00.000
don't just the the link that i sent no longer works you have to go right to our main page
00:09:21.760
and go under live we we haven't sent out that link at all it's just our main page that's what we sent
00:09:29.320
out yeah can you hear audio okay yeah just one more time stay on the line Craig he's gonna talk
00:10:29.320
Yeah, well, I don't know why this thing yesterday was working.
00:11:24.320
I just don't understand why the audio isn't coming through, which did not work too.
00:16:54.320
if this is what happens to me it worked fine yesterday and doesn't work today right yeah
00:19:24.320
you see the audio yes great right oh yeah there is already yeah but where's
00:19:34.520
this audio coming from from the front podium I've been patched into the okay
00:19:38.720
right back there yeah so it's like a YouTube thing like this is your receiver
00:43:48.560
Good morning, everybody. Thank you for your opinion, and thank you for your continued patience. I really appreciate it.
00:44:03.560
In a moment, I will be asking the student at Virginia to provide a statement.
00:44:07.560
Immediately, probably, I'll ask Dr. Olson-Anne Cowell to provide information information.
00:44:11.560
Once he's done, we'll open up the floor for questions, starting on my left.
00:44:15.560
The work of my way to the right is maybe one question and one follow-up.
00:44:19.560
We are looking to try to use this to take 10 minutes.
00:44:23.560
I would ask that if you try just a little bit of concern for time,
00:44:30.560
If it is answered, you know, you can ask the follow-up on that same question,
00:44:34.560
but just to kind of get the information that we will pass on to you.
00:44:40.560
And finally, I ask them to just keep it very respectful and allow everyone to ask the question.
00:44:45.560
thank you good morning thank you fraser everyone i really appreciate you coming here today
00:44:52.920
and taking the time to try uh to listen and understand this what is an important issue
00:44:58.200
and fairly uh complex and unique because as you know we do not normally speak to
00:45:03.640
an investigation unless charges have been laid the decision to do that in this rare case is
00:45:15.420
and questions that we do not want people to be left
00:45:29.300
and I was a monitoring officer for this investigation.
00:45:38.240
formed United Conservative Party a UCP leadership contest followed and on
00:45:46.700
October 4th 2017 Jeff Calloway dropped out of the race and publicly endorsed
00:45:51.800
Jason Kenney on October 28th 2017 mr. Kenny was officially elected as the new
00:45:57.800
UCP leader allegations of wrongdoing surfaced after the leadership contest
00:46:04.400
in february 2019 a complaint was received by the alberta rcmp in relation to these allegations
00:46:11.040
which resulted in the rcmp opening an investigation into the two separate allegations
00:46:19.120
allegation number one was that jeff calloway entered the contest solely to attack another
00:46:25.280
candidate always with the intention of pulling out of the leadership race and endorsing a different
00:46:30.640
candidate prior to the vote given the allegation that this candidate had portrayed himself as a
00:46:38.560
legitimate candidate and as a result was able to solicit money from individuals who believed
00:46:45.440
him to be a legitimate candidate fraud contrary to section 380 of the criminal code of canada
00:46:51.200
was identified as an appropriate offense to be investigated
00:46:54.320
investigators reviewed the candidates campaign debates and political advertisements
00:47:00.700
and also the campaign's financial records which showed that approximately
00:47:08.040
$95,000 was received by the campaign in financial contributions
00:47:13.180
as you likely know Elections Alberta investigated Mr. Calloway's campaign finances
00:47:19.520
under the Alberta Election Finances and Contribution Disclosures Act the
00:47:25.800
results of the elections Alberta investigation are posted on their
00:47:29.640
website Alberta RCMP investigators conducted more than a hundred and seventy
00:47:34.400
interviews with contributors and campaign staff and examined over 25,000
00:47:41.060
related emails. Following this thorough investigation we did not uncover
00:47:49.960
evidence to establish that Calloway or any other person committed a criminal
00:47:55.120
offense. The second allegation was that voter fraud occurred during the UCP
00:48:02.840
leadership contest. In order to vote a UCP member needed to register and receive
00:48:09.320
a personal identification number either by phone or email or text message once
00:48:17.440
the pin was received that member could then cast a vote either by phone or by
00:48:24.720
using another electronic device to access the voting platform on the
00:48:30.480
internet the allegations were that initially where that emails were created
00:48:36.680
in order to receive pins and vote on people's behalf without their consent or
00:48:44.660
knowledge identity fraud contrary to section 403 of the criminal code was
00:48:51.260
identified as the appropriate offense to be investigated under the circumstances
00:48:56.480
the online platform used by the UCP to hold the leadership contest was it was
00:49:02.180
identified and the rcmp obtained that database through a legal process it contained data from
00:49:09.940
more than 60 000 voters the rcmp analyzed the data and identified several suspicious cross sections
00:49:20.500
of votes where multiple votes were cast using the same phone number or originating from the same
00:49:27.300
IP or internet protocol address similar to an in-person ballot the data did not
00:49:34.760
show which candidate was voted for but only that the vote had been cast using
00:49:40.700
that unique identifier we generated a list of these suspicious votes conducted
00:49:49.180
interviews of more than 1200 individuals and examined their UCP membership and
00:49:55.380
registration forms to be clear the number of potential votes at issue which
00:50:04.800
after investigation were less than 200 would not have impacted the outcome of
00:50:10.680
the leadership contest given that Jason Kenny one with 61% of the vote the RCMP
00:50:18.260
did not find evidence that any leadership candidate encouraged their
00:50:21.900
volunteers or staff to engage in identity fraud the service provider for
00:50:30.860
the online voting platform used by the UCP was not compromised and it worked as
00:50:36.480
specified this high-profile investigation was extremely complex and
00:50:43.020
time-consuming due to several factors the sheer volume of data to be analyzed
00:50:48.940
and investigated took a significant amount of time furthermore a portion of
00:50:55.780
this data required that judicial authorizations be obtained both
00:50:59.380
domestically and outside of Canada that the fact that the complainant was not
00:51:06.320
sorry the complaint was not received until 2019 impacted many witnesses
00:51:11.920
recollections of the event. The 2017 UCP leadership contest occurred at the same time as other
00:51:22.560
internal party votes. As a result, some witnesses were unclear about which process the RCMP was
00:51:30.520
investigating. Even for cases that appear to be fraud, voter fraud or identity fraud, there can
00:51:38.060
and explanations for example it was not illegal for one phone number or email to receive many pins
00:51:47.340
it was also not illegal for many votes to be cast from the same ip address or phone number
00:51:54.300
in for example in certain families living under the same roof this was common
00:51:58.780
we also saw the same pattern in office buildings and at voting kiosks where many people voted from
00:52:04.140
the same ip following our comprehensive investigation into a voter identity fraud
00:52:10.780
the alberta rcmp determined that there were suspected instances of potential fraud however
00:52:19.340
there was insufficient evidence to charge any suspect and again there was no evidence
00:52:26.300
that any leadership candidate orchestrated these relatively rare instances the decision on whether or
00:52:34.140
lay a charge in alberta rests with the police however throughout this investigation
00:52:41.100
as is normal for a significant investigation the police did seek advice from the crown which began
00:52:46.300
in alberta but was later referred to the ontario minister of the attorney general who assigned
00:52:52.300
crown prosecutors all of these crown prosecutors provided valuable and timely advice throughout the
00:52:59.020
the investigation and their assistance was greatly appreciated it should be
00:53:06.940
noted that these allegations of possible voter fraud occurred during an internal
00:53:12.160
political party voting process and in no way represent any possible fraud or
00:53:18.460
shortcomings in our general provincial or federal elections nothing in the
00:53:23.980
investigation suggested that the UCP failed to take reasonable steps to
00:53:28.200
manage their internal process. We hope that the information shared today will further reduce the
00:53:33.400
risk of similar incidents occurring in the future for any political party. The investigators received
00:53:41.040
cooperation from the UCP and the leadership candidates, which assisted in moving the
00:53:46.180
investigation forward. I would like to highlight that in investigating allegations of criminality,
00:53:53.820
The thoroughness and completeness of the investigation is the standard that needs to be assessed.
00:53:59.820
And the lack of criminal charges should not be the test of a successful investigation.
00:54:06.100
In this case, experienced criminal investigators fully tested these allegations.
00:54:12.040
In the end, Albertans can be confident that a thorough investigation, independent of government, was conducted.
00:54:19.440
I would now like to ask Corporal Matthew Howell to provide this statement in French.
00:54:49.440
Howell, et je traduis présentement les dires du surintendant Rick Jeanne, qui était officier
00:54:53.560
responsable du suivi de l'enquĂȘte. En juillet 2017, le Wild Rose Party et le Progressive
00:54:59.500
Conservative Party se sont unis pour créer le United Conservative Party. Un concours
00:55:04.680
à la chefferie a suivi. Le 4 octobre 2017, Jeff Calloway a abandonné la course et a
00:55:08.860
publiquement endossé Jason Kenney. Le 28 octobre 2017, Kenney a officiellement été
00:55:13.920
élu comme le nouveau chef du UCP. Les allégations de méfait ont fait surface aprÚs le concours
00:55:19.020
la chefferie. En february 2019, une plainte a été reçue par la GRC de l'Alberta en relation
00:55:24.680
avec ses allĂ©gations, ce qui a rĂ©sultĂ© en l'ouverture d'une enquĂȘte sur deux allĂ©gations
00:55:28.820
distinctes par la GRC. Une des allégations revendiquait que Jeff Calloway est entré
00:55:34.140
dans le concours simplement pour attaquer un autre candidat, ayant toujours eu l'intention
00:55:38.680
d'abandonner la course à la chefferie et endosser un autre candidat. Considérant l'allégation
00:55:42.960
que ce candidat se dépeignait comme étant un candidat légitime et, résultant de cela,
00:55:47.380
a eu l'occasion de solliciter des fonds d'individus qui croient qu'il était un candidat légitime
00:55:52.740
et il a Ă©tĂ© dĂ©terminĂ© que l'offense appropriĂ©e Ă enquĂȘter Ă©tait une fraude selon la section
00:55:57.420
380 du Code criminel. Les enquĂȘteurs ont passĂ© en revue les dĂ©bats et les publicitĂ©s
00:56:03.240
politiques de la campagne de ce candidat. Une revue des dossiers financiers de la campagne
00:56:07.740
a révélé que celle-ci a réussi à générer environ 95 000 en contributions financiÚres.
00:56:13.360
Elections Alberta a enquĂȘtĂ© les finances de la campagne de Callaway
00:56:17.460
sous l'Alberta Election Finances and Contributions Disclosure Act.
00:56:21.320
Les rĂ©sultats de l'enquĂȘte d'Elections Alberta ont Ă©tĂ© mis sur leur site Internet.
00:56:26.800
Les enquĂȘteurs de la GRC de l'Alberta ont effectuĂ© plus de 170 entrevues
00:56:30.300
avec les contributeurs et le personnel de la campagne
00:56:33.840
et ont examiné plus de 25 000 courriels reliés à celle-ci.
00:56:37.740
L'enquĂȘte n'a pas dĂ©couvert de preuves Ă©tablissant que Callaway
00:56:40.760
or any other person who has committed a criminal act.
00:56:44.760
The second allegation was revealed to a fraud electoral
00:56:55.760
should receive a number of personal personal NIP,
00:57:02.760
Once the NIP received, the member could vote by phone
00:57:06.760
or by phone or using a exclusive vote on Internet.
00:57:10.760
Les allégations soulignent la création de courriels pour recevoir des NIP et voter au nom d'une autre personne sans leur connaissance ou consentement.
00:57:19.740
Fraude Ă l'identitĂ©, section 403 du Code criminel, a Ă©tĂ© identifiĂ©e comme Ă©tant l'offense appropriĂ©e Ă enquĂȘter.
00:57:27.180
La plateforme en ligne utilisée par l'UCP pour tenir le concours à la chefferie a été identifiée par la GRC,
00:57:33.440
who obtained the data from the legal process, which contained the information of more than 60.000 voters.
00:57:41.440
The GRC analyzed the data and identified a section of voters where several votes were submitted by the same telephone number or from the same IP.
00:57:53.440
Just like a vote in person, the data did not show for the candidate the person voted,
00:57:59.680
but that a vote was submitted by using a unique number.
00:58:04.200
The GRC generated a list containing these votes suspects and has made interviews with more
00:58:09.800
of 1 200 individuals and has examined their adhésions and their formulaires of the UCPA.
00:58:15.000
It is important to note that the number of votes potentially problematic, which after
00:58:19.760
enquĂȘte Ă©tait moins de 200, n'aurait eu aucun impact sur le concours Ă la chefferie
00:58:23.420
considérant que Jason Kenney a gagné avec 61 % des votes.
00:58:27.320
L'enquĂȘte de la GRC n'a pas trouvĂ© de preuve qu'un candidat Ă la chefferie ou un
00:58:31.080
autre membre de la campagne ait encouragé des personnes à s'engager dans la fraude
00:58:34.560
à l'identité. Le fournisseur de la plateforme en ligne utilisée par UCP n'a pas été
00:58:42.360
Cette enquĂȘte de grande envergure a Ă©tĂ© extrĂȘmement complexe en raison de certains facteurs.
00:58:52.360
Le grand volume de donnĂ©es analysĂ©es et enquĂȘtĂ©es a pris un temps considĂ©rable.
00:58:58.360
De plus, une portion de ces données nécessitait l'obtention d'autorisations judiciaires domestiques et internationales.
00:59:04.360
Le fait que la plainte n'a pas été reçue avant 2019 a impacté la mémoire de l'événement chez plusieurs témoins.
00:59:11.360
Le concours Ă la chefferie du UCP de 2017 a pris place en mĂȘme temps que d'autres votes internes du parti.
00:59:17.400
RĂ©sultant de cela, certains tĂ©moins n'Ă©taient pas certains du processus particulier enquĂȘtĂ© par la GRC.
00:59:23.160
MĂȘme pour les cas qui semblent relever de la fraude Ă©lectorale, il pourrait y avoir des explications innocentes.
00:59:29.800
Par exemple, il n'était pas illégal qu'un numéro de téléphone ou courriel reçoive plusieurs NIP.
00:59:35.240
It was not illegal to use the same IP address or the same phone number to vote.
00:59:43.240
For some families living on the same table, this practice was current.
00:59:49.240
We also observed the same phenomenon in the immeubles of bureaus or in the kiosks of vote where several people voted from the same IP address.
00:59:59.240
Suite Ă l'enquĂȘte approfondie sur la fraude d'identitĂ© Ă©lectorale, la GRC de l'Alberta a dĂ©terminĂ© qu'il y a eu des cas suspectĂ©s de fraude Ă l'identitĂ© potentielle.
01:00:08.240
Toutefois, il n'y a pas suffisamment de preuves pour inculper un suspect.
01:00:12.240
De plus, il n'y avait aucune preuve que le candidat de la chefferie ait orchestré ces instances relativement rares.
01:00:19.240
La décision de porter des accusations en Alberta reste avec la police.
01:00:23.680
Toutefois, tout au long de l'enquĂȘte, la GRC a demandĂ© conseil de la Couronne, d'abord en Alberta,
01:00:29.300
puis, aprĂšs y ĂȘtre rĂ©fĂ©rĂ©, au ministĂšre du Procureur gĂ©nĂ©ral de l'Ontario, qui a assignĂ© des procureurs de la Couronne.
01:00:38.880
Ces procureurs de la Couronne ont fourni des conseils utiles et rapides tout au long de l'enquĂȘte et leur assistance a Ă©tĂ© grandement apprĂ©ciĂ©e.
01:00:45.920
Il est important de noter que ces allégations de possible fraude électorale se sont produites au cours d'un processus de vote interne du Parti politique
01:00:53.060
et ne représente d'aucune maniÚre une possible fraude ou lacune dans nos élections générales, provinciales ou fédérales.
01:01:00.660
Aucun Ă©lĂ©ment de l'enquĂȘte ne suggĂšre que l'UCP n'a pas pris les mesures raisonnables pour gĂ©rer son processus interne.
01:01:07.100
Nous espérons que les informations partagées aujourd'hui permettront à d'autres partis politiques de réduire davantage le risque d'incidence similaire à l'avenir.
01:01:16.260
Les enquĂȘteurs ont bĂ©nĂ©ficiĂ© de la coopĂ©ration du UCP et des candidats Ă la chefferie,
01:01:24.520
Nous aimerons souligner que, dans le cadre d'une enquĂȘte d'allĂ©gation criminelle,
01:01:28.520
la rigueur et l'exhaustivitĂ© de l'enquĂȘte sont des critĂšres qui doivent ĂȘtre Ă©valuĂ©s
01:01:32.840
et que l'absence de poursuites pĂ©nales ne doit pas ĂȘtre Ă la mort d'une enquĂȘte non rĂ©ussite,
01:01:40.240
Dans ce cas, les enquĂȘteurs criminels d'expĂ©rience ont vĂ©rifiĂ© ces allĂ©gations.
01:01:45.780
Au final, les Albertains peuvent ĂȘtre sĂ»rs qu'une enquĂȘte exhaustive,
01:01:49.300
it doesn't the elections alberta investigation was independent of the rcp's investigation
01:02:16.100
where appropriate we cooperated as the law allows but we were not involved in that investigation
01:02:36.020
um i'm not overly concerned honestly i think that the fact that we've been able to investigate it
01:02:39.700
we'll be able to talk to any party that asks us about uh these processes you can never
01:02:44.260
have a zero percent risk and this was not not something that affected the
01:02:51.100
outcome and so one of the things that I think this investigation reveals is it
01:02:55.180
is would be challenging for any one individual to orchestrate a very broad
01:02:58.900
fraud at least them how this invest the offense mechanisms here would have made
01:03:14.260
if i understood your question correctly and it'll be translated uh in response the question was uh
01:03:37.300
in relation to the 200 potentially suspicious uh votes um why were no charges laid and
01:03:45.300
because of the fact that no charge is being laid we're limited as how we how much we can discuss
01:03:50.180
the actual facts in any one of those cases of fraud but i can say generally um it is because
01:03:55.620
there was insufficient evidence to support um a criminal charge in our opinion so we weren't able
01:04:02.180
the lay charge. So the votes where, you know, largely many of these votes that are, we're
01:04:19.380
talking about the 200, it's where we had clear evidence from the person whose identity was
01:04:24.200
associated to that vote, had no knowledge or did not permit anyone to vote on their
01:04:30.740
behalf so in those cases obviously we tried to identify either and it was
01:04:35.840
there was multiple different mechanisms sometimes it was an email address the
01:04:40.760
pin was delivered sometimes it was through a phone system and then also how
01:04:44.120
the email how the vote was cast it could be cast through a telephone it could also
01:04:49.680
be cast by logging into a website in we do not have evidence to suggest that we
01:04:57.740
evidence suggests that there is potential fraud in the case of those votes but those are it's
01:05:02.580
important to clarify that those matters have not been tested in court and there was insufficient
01:05:06.920
evidence to lay a charge and our biggest obstacle was being able to satisfy ourselves that we would
01:05:12.580
have sufficient evidence around the identity of the persons responsible to prove that and when
01:05:17.520
you think about how voting works and it's you need a witness often to an offense and if you
01:05:23.380
don't have a witness you need to tie the device that was connected to the offense if it's even
01:05:27.560
knowable, because there's ways sometimes it's not knowable, but if it's knowable to that suspect in a clear manner, and we didn't have that evidence at the end of it.
01:05:40.080
La réponse a été trÚs longue, donc j'ai pas cette mémoire corporative assez grande.
01:05:45.580
Toutefois, pour répondre à la premiÚre section de la question, au niveau de pourquoi il n'y a pas eu de charges qui ont été portées dans ce cas-ci,
01:05:52.940
En fait, c'est une fois qu'on regarde la totalité de toutes les preuves qui viennent vers nous,
01:05:56.960
on a réalisé qu'il n'y avait pas assez de preuves, dans le fond, pour aller vers des charges criminelles en cours.
01:06:05.200
Il faut se rappeler qu'une fois que quelque chose va dans la cour, on doit essayer de prouver ça hors de tout doute raisonnable.
01:06:11.260
Et si on ne pense pas que la preuve accumulée va mener, dans le fond, à cet aspect de tout doute raisonnable,
01:06:20.980
We will not be able to put charges to the court for not to put charges without having a conviction of that.
01:06:29.900
And more than anything that was specified later, we have not been able to identify with certitude
01:06:36.340
the people who were, in the fond, coupable, or not coupable, pardon me, suspecting of having done these crimes.
01:06:44.640
Yes, and just to clarify one thing that my colleague said, I do understand French,
01:07:04.800
you're just not very great at speaking it. He's correct that that's the charge, the standard is
01:07:09.360
the only reason to let once in court. The standard to lay a charge is reasonable grounds and for
01:07:13.920
police practically speaking we also need to know that it's it's viable uh we we definitely
01:07:17.920
investigated this and that's why it took the time that it took to the fullest extent that was
01:07:21.680
reasonably possible and we did not have sufficient evidence to to to in our opinion lay a charge
01:07:28.320
now in terms of your question about um and i'll actually ask you to just repeat the part of that
01:07:34.080
question because i i wanted to clarify that as well so you said there was some evidence
01:07:38.560
so because we're not going to we're not not permitted to based on you know privacy privacy
01:07:52.300
legislation to get into the nuanced details of any invest any aspect that where there was a
01:07:59.320
suspected fraudulent vote it's difficult to answer that question very you know fulsomely
01:08:05.320
but i will say that you know and nor would it be exactly the same in each case because as i said
01:08:09.960
the mechanisms that we investigated weren't all identical it wasn't it appeared there was
01:08:14.560
different mechanisms although they all involved utilizing a pin to cast a vote and
01:08:19.560
but i do believe that the most common challenge as is always the case well it depends on the type
01:08:25.660
of offense but in this type of offense the most challenging thing is to identify who is the person
01:08:30.340
responsible uh for for casting the vote because that is the identity fraud is that is the actual
01:08:36.580
casting of that vote my crystal ball is always cloudy honestly the uh we fully investigated this
01:08:48.260
we did not kind of uh we did not end this investigation until we were satisfied that
01:08:53.380
there was no other avenues that were viable to pursue i think it's unlikely but if new
01:09:00.340
and for evidence arises we will consider it and if there is a viable investigation we will pursue it
01:09:23.380
not in terms of individuals who've experienced this um we we were we were we received really
01:09:41.460
good cooperation from voters that we had approached and we understand that that creates concerns for
01:09:47.620
them and probably in some ways may even create different and more important and equal concerns
01:09:52.260
for other Albertans who don't understand the mechanism so what I would say to you is that
01:09:56.400
this wasn't a widespread situation there was no hacking like technological hacking there was no
01:10:01.860
use of foreign interference this was a situation where it appears that it is possible that in some
01:10:07.840
cases somebody obtained personal information that allowed them to register and receive a pin to vote
01:10:15.920
and then cast that vote and those those cases if they could be proven in court would still be a
01:10:22.140
very small, small percentage of the overall vote.
01:10:37.380
The reason we chose to be clear about that is that the,
01:10:42.300
we could not provide an update without referencing two individuals because just
01:10:47.380
the nature of the way the allegations came in and I would be unfair and
01:10:51.840
improper to leave the public of a false impression that we found evidence or we
01:11:01.520
organizing voter identity fraud um nor do we find anyone at their right
01:11:10.480
um in terms of possible suspects again given these aren't crimes that are proven
01:11:14.960
i can't speak to you know what their relationship was
01:11:21.840
we can't even be sure who those suspicious cases even cast a ballot for you know because it's not
01:11:28.080
knowable yes thank you for asking the question the the RCMP and any police service you know
01:11:55.980
is founded on a principle of separation from the police services function from the government that
01:12:00.880
that we serve and the people we serve so those principles are always embedded in any investigation
01:12:06.500
we did not have any reason to believe there would be interference and we were I'm very happy to say
01:12:12.540
that there was none no pressure from inside the organization or outside the organization
01:12:15.680
from any level of government we were allowed to properly carry out this investigation
01:12:19.700
based on the investigators decision making and the tasks that were identified it was never we
01:12:25.580
need to wrap this up, we need to end this. We did it until we felt that we could not
01:12:30.360
reasonably gather any further evidence that would be material to our inquiry.
01:12:35.060
so criminal wrongdoing has to be proven in court we had and of course the RCMP we do
01:12:59.660
you know we investigate matters uh based on an allegation or discovery of information that
01:13:06.280
suggests that an offense may have occurred in terms of identity fraud there there was some
01:13:12.040
evidence that as as has been reported in the media and as we were told by witnesses that they did not
01:13:17.420
vote or consent to have any else vote on their behalf that unless there's another explanation
01:13:22.700
that we're unaware of could would would certainly give reasonable grounds to believe that the
01:13:30.100
The challenge is we do not have anyone charged.
01:13:34.140
And so speaking about how we come to those beliefs
01:13:40.000
with a misimpression that this is a small subset
01:13:58.100
if you yeah hacking i use hacking in the terms of computer assisted
01:14:11.220
internet database no hacking and these are real people's identities that were utilized
01:14:17.860
because because there were um some people that had you know evidence potential evidence as a
01:14:30.180
witness or as a person under investigation in both investigations they did have to be run current
01:14:36.260
concurrently as i mentioned earlier during the technical brief certainly the callaway investigation
01:14:41.860
requiring 170 interviews to be thorough and complete would have taken less time had there
01:14:46.740
been not intersections between uh investigative steps not just interviews but paying court
01:14:52.180
documents etc so but i don't have a specific comment because it was not over until we were
01:14:57.300
done everything we didn't we didn't find evidence of a uh like a coordinated effort that's involving
01:15:14.580
the entire leadership campaign i'm not going to be able to comment on whether or not any of the
01:15:19.380
individuals taking advantage um may have known each other i mean the alberta politics is not
01:15:24.100
that broad it would be a statement that i couldn't be sure of but we didn't find evidence of a of a
01:15:30.900
like a it's the public when the public thinks of a conspiracy you would think of it as like
01:15:35.780
organized you know that is that would be a misunderstanding of the evidence that we found
01:15:44.300
again we don't we can't discuss what evidence we found if uh of coordination if any because those
01:16:00.040
matters are not resulting in charges they don't involve any individuals that we've spoken about
01:16:04.380
here today and it would be improper for me to start to answer detailed questions that would
01:16:09.220
really require me to the answer would be different potentially for every single
01:16:14.080
possible suspect and there's not not to suggest that there's a large group of
01:16:17.920
suspects we 200 votes we're just not saying it's 200 and not to say in every
01:16:23.760
single case could we be sure and that's one of the reasons we couldn't lay a
01:16:26.400
charge we don't don't know who's responsible but based on various
01:16:30.400
factors we we do not believe that this was one person or persons acting in
01:16:35.280
concert yeah so you know I certainly have no judgment of members of public having opinions
01:17:02.180
about our service our duty is to serve the public and gather evidence according to the law the reason
01:17:07.600
i said that the statement that i was quoted as saying in the formal release as well is because
01:17:12.420
if the if the standard that we are going to be evaluated or that that we evaluate ourselves by
01:17:17.600
is whether we later charge or not there is risk of police having tunnel vision focusing in trying
01:17:23.640
to charge people at all costs that our job is equally to clear people as it is to charge of
01:17:28.300
course that process uh is um like our job is to remain remain open-minded of this throughout the
01:17:35.780
whole process what i can say is that the investigators and i'm not directly an investigator
01:17:39.940
i was you know the monitoring officer they are some of the most experienced investigators that
01:17:44.480
i've ever worked with my career they always put this investigation at a high priority i never had
01:17:50.180
problems uh getting uh resources and uh time and funding to do this because we all recognized
01:17:58.100
that no matter how many votes were involved this strikes at the principles
01:18:03.200
of a fair democratic process and that is not like that needs to be understood by
01:18:10.140
the public and we also want to make sure we don't end up you know inappropriately
01:18:13.660
casting blame on on victims like we would in any offense this was not
01:18:17.560
something that we saw as a result of some clearly foreseeable issue
01:18:28.100
I never briefed any political official no we met with the crown prosecutors for
01:18:44.380
legal advice and unless we were meeting with somebody to take a statement from
01:18:48.500
them as a witness or a suspect that is the only time we meet with people we
01:18:52.900
they had no contact that was about the investigation.
01:19:22.900
yeah so the best thing i would advise anyone who's interested in that question is to look at the
01:19:29.380
criminal code look at section 380 and you know of course you're not lawyers i'm not a lawyer so
01:19:35.060
getting advice from someone who's an expert in that area can have an opinion what i can say to
01:19:38.980
you is that for us to lay a charge we need to believe that there are reasonable grounds for
01:19:42.340
all the elements of that offense it is not unlike a fraud involving selling a vehicle that you don't
01:19:47.540
own or a house you don't own you have to prove which requires intent as well
01:19:51.820
knowledge and intent we found no evidence in our inner conversations and
01:19:57.080
interviews and we had cooperation from the candidates that there was not a
01:20:00.500
willingness to take on the leadership role if mr. Callaway had won the
01:20:03.360
election a contest leadership contest and that's that is was is very very
01:20:08.720
relevant to whether or not this would have been a fraud under the criminal
01:20:42.620
so I don't believe it is I mean because it's not just what the criminal code
01:20:57.240
allows we have numerous provisions under the criminal code to allow us to gather
01:21:01.100
evidence lawfully I fully respect the constitutional requirements around
01:21:06.980
search around interviewing processes but I didn't feel that way so
01:21:36.560
I think that the the investigation was necessary the amount of money that was
01:21:42.140
necessary I I definitely do not have any concerns like that obviously can't
01:21:50.060
speak for a taxpayer but this clearly was an important investigation we took
01:21:54.200
it seriously from day one there were even investigators that were promoted and
01:21:58.460
could have left the unit could left the investigation they all remained all the
01:22:01.260
key investigators remained engaged because we recognize the importance of
01:22:04.680
having this done in as timely manner as possible and as thoroughly as possible
01:22:08.960
numbers like that are can seem shocking when they're taken out of context
01:22:13.440
involved in numerous criminal investigations complex investigations
01:22:16.680
it costs money to investigate things thoroughly and this is not not an
01:22:25.920
who doesn't have that context may have any opinion they want and can we do that
01:22:40.920
at the end maybe because I think like while you're not gonna remember to
01:22:43.560
either yeah so why don't we have uh matt i i can understand everything he's saying so if he says
01:23:09.240
anything that needs to be corrected, I'll correct it in English, butâŠ
01:23:39.240
La confiance des Albertains en un processus dĂ©mocratique, c'Ă©tait important dĂšs le dĂ©but de vraiment prendre tous les aspects possibles de cette enquĂȘte, de prendre tous les avenues possibles pour enquĂȘter et de mener vraiment cette enquĂȘte au bout.
01:23:53.240
Donc, l'importance, en fait, peu importe l'enquĂȘte qu'on parle, que ce soit ceci ou une autre, c'est vraiment de prendre tous les Ă©lĂ©ments de preuve et de faire un canevas complet de ce qui s'est passĂ©.
01:24:07.560
And that's what we've done in this inquiry. We've done all the elements surrounding the inquiry, and we've really managed to make the final image.
01:24:16.560
And it's with this that we can say that we're confident in our results, we're confident in what the investigators have achieved in this inquiry.
01:24:25.560
And we hope that the Albertans have also confidence in this process and in the efforts that have been made in this inquiry.
01:25:03.560
I can't really because I don't first of all I don't have what exactly was told
01:25:10.640
the journalist what I what I can just say is restate what I said which is we
01:25:14.360
would need clear evidence or sufficient evidence to allow us to know that there
01:25:18.260
was no intention for a person to take off take the role of the leader should
01:25:24.380
they win that should they win the contest that it was that there was no
01:25:28.520
hope no no possibility of that being um something they would be willing to do
01:25:47.080
just know that they they did nothing wrong um identity fraud occurs in our society often not
01:25:52.600
often in this context but but in other contexts your private information relating especially your
01:25:57.640
date of birth phone number your full name you know have value protect them as best you can but
01:26:03.720
but what person who experiences identity fraud has not done anything wrong they shouldn't feel guilt
01:26:07.880
or shame i don't know i honestly i as a police officer i investigate i don't really worry about
01:26:17.000
the i try to focus on getting the facts and whether or not there's a reason for a charge i
01:26:22.120
I do not turn my mind to the criminal sanctions for that.
01:26:26.980
It probably is a range that's in the criminal code,
01:26:32.980
to give you an idea of what could have occurred.
01:26:37.180
you're not looking at lifetime in jail or anything like that.
01:26:46.880
Didn't give us a clear breakdown of what the salaries were
01:26:50.740
But, I mean, looking at publicly available information, is it fair to say this investigation is possible?
01:26:57.100
Well, honestly, I would want to do some math on that because, again,
01:27:01.640
while the five core investigators spent a significant amount of times over those five years,
01:27:06.180
there were natural bottlenecks that occur in these types of investigations awaiting judicial authorization,
01:27:10.920
especially multilateral legal assistance treaties.
01:27:13.480
And during those times, those investigators were actually working and contributing to investigations in other areas.
01:27:19.480
and so it's not as simple as taking five multiplying and I'll just yeah so that's
01:27:24.640
that is a challenge with that it would be a guess a complete guess thank you
01:27:49.480
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