Western Standard - Au contraire： Future of the AB NDP & Big Media

00:00:00.000 G'day. Today is May 5th, 2022. I'm Derek Fildebrandt, publisher of the Western Standard.

00:00:05.300 Today, I'm sitting down with Max Fawcett. He is the lead columnist for Canada's National Observer.

00:00:13.260 Max had me on his show, actually, a few months back, which was an interesting take.

00:00:19.240 Max is, at least, I think, two viewers of this show.

00:00:23.040 It would be considered definitely on the left side of things, but not so crazy left as you might think.

00:00:28.200 And he had me on to get a different point of view.

00:00:30.900 And I wanted to return the favor or the pain, depending on how you look at it, and have him on for his turn on the Western Standard here.

00:00:41.520 We're going to talk about kind of follow from the election, in particular, focusing on the NDP.

00:00:47.160 Do they have a path to actually form government in Alberta?

00:00:50.400 What direction should they go? Should they kind of go back to the more hardcore democratic socialist roots?

00:00:56.160 Or do they continue in their path of pushing towards the centre to try and win that sweet spot in Calgary?

00:01:02.380 We're also going to talk about the future of the media.

00:01:04.520 He is representing Canada's National Observer, an independent media player on the Canadian scene,

00:01:10.700 just coming at things from a bit of a different angle.

00:01:13.080 And so I think his perspective is one that we need to hear.

00:01:17.120 Before we get going, though, I want to thank my favorite sponsor, the Canadian Shooting Sports Association.

00:01:21.180 I've been a member of the CSSA for more than a decade because I trust them as Canada's leading firearm owners' rights group

00:01:27.480 to protect my right to purchase, own, and use firearms responsibly in Canada.

00:01:33.140 If you're not yet a member of the CSSA, go to cssa-cila.org or do what I do.

00:01:38.880 Just Google them and become a member today.

00:01:41.020 All right, Max, well, thank you very much for coming in.

00:01:45.380 Thanks for having me in. Pleasure.

00:01:47.000 Thank you. Well, I enjoyed our little back and forth last time.

00:01:50.120 It was surprisingly refreshing, and I think it's good that we break out of our own silos.

00:01:56.780 And that's what you're trying to do with your show, Maxed Out.

00:01:58.940 That's what I'm trying to do here today is expose our listeners, our viewers to perspective

00:02:05.980 that is probably outside of their silos and outside of mine.

00:02:10.680 So let's just kind of talk, probably focus less on the UCP today,

00:02:14.520 although if you have a tangent you want to go down, feel free to do it.

00:02:18.840 I want to talk in particular about the NDP and their path forward.

00:02:23.140 By popular vote, this was actually their best election ever.

00:02:25.920 They significantly exceeded their popular vote.

00:02:28.940 At the time they formed a government, 2015, the NDP had only 40.6% of the vote.

00:02:35.580 This time around, they hit 44%, a significant increase, but that's not the way the math works.

00:02:43.320 Popular vote doesn't win all actions. Seats do.

00:02:47.420 Now, a column you recently wrote in the National Observer,

00:02:50.900 you pointed out that there were just 2,611 votes and six ridings in Calgary alone

00:02:58.360 that could have flipped it to a bare NDP majority government,

00:03:02.100 although a similar number exists on the other side that would turn a reasonable UCP majority

00:03:06.820 into a very big UCP majority.

00:03:09.280 But there's no doubt that there were a couple of key ridings where it was so razor thin

00:03:14.320 that it could have flipped the other way around.

00:03:18.540 But the NDP has...

00:03:21.860 I mean, their path to a majority government was so Calgary.

00:03:26.960 Outside of Calgary, they hit only one of...

00:03:29.920 No, two of their target seats.

00:03:32.380 Banff-Canon-Ascas, which is...

00:03:34.780 On the map looks rural, but isn't really a rural.

00:03:36.960 It's very much an asterisk constituency.

00:03:38.960 And Sherwood Park, proper.

00:03:41.440 Just those two.

00:03:42.420 They got completely destroyed in the donut outside.

00:03:45.060 And they were just totally uncompetitive in rural Alberta.

00:03:49.160 Just kind of talk about the broader math.

00:03:52.160 Is there really a...

00:03:53.520 As strong as the ADP did here,

00:03:55.840 is there really a path for them to form government in Alberta

00:03:59.620 short of winning about two-thirds of Calgary?

00:04:02.860 I think there is, but it does involve them winning, like you said, two-thirds of Calgary.

00:04:07.020 There are communities in this province that are theoretically rural,

00:04:12.840 or they're certainly on the map outside of Calgary and Edmonton.

00:04:16.040 But like Medicine Hat, Lethbridge East, Red Deer, Grand Prairie, even Fort McMurray.

00:04:22.160 These are all communities that have cities.

00:04:24.700 They are a little more urban, a little more developed.

00:04:27.320 And I think the NDP's message could resonate there.

00:04:30.060 You know, I flagged it for them from the very beginning,

00:04:34.680 months before the writ dropped,

00:04:37.160 that they needed to be able to speak to Calgarians in their language.

00:04:40.760 And the language in Calgary is the economy.

00:04:42.940 It's jobs, it's prosperity, it's the economy.

00:04:45.840 And I don't think that ever really sunk in.

00:04:48.860 You know, they did some consulting.

00:04:50.880 They had plans.

00:04:52.360 They brought Todd Hershin, who was the former chief economist at ATB.

00:04:56.780 So there were steps in that direction.

00:04:59.080 But there was no narrative.

00:05:01.520 There was no story that they were telling Calgarians about their economic future.

00:05:04.880 The story was all about health care.

00:05:07.720 It was about certainly a little bit about climate.

00:05:10.180 I would say not enough, but that's a whole other story.

00:05:12.440 And it was a lot about Daniel Smith.

00:05:13.920 It was about leadership.

00:05:14.600 It was, I think, a very negative message.

00:05:18.460 You know, obviously other people have identified that as a problem.

00:05:20.940 Although I will say the UCP's campaign was just as negative.

00:05:24.340 I mean, politics tends to be negative these days,

00:05:27.040 especially with leaders like Rachel Notley and Daniel Smith.

00:05:30.440 But the NDs could have told an economic story.

00:05:33.280 And they didn't.

00:05:34.660 They actually ended up helping the UCP tell their economic story

00:05:37.940 when they dropped the corporate tax increase in the middle of the campaign.

00:05:41.740 I mean, we've seen, I think Don Braid had a column about it.

00:05:44.420 I wrote about it.

00:05:45.700 I don't think anyone understands what they were thinking.

00:05:48.540 It's, I was on Ryan Jesperson's show last week.

00:05:51.040 I called it the biggest, one of the biggest blunders in Canadian political history.

00:05:54.600 And it was because what it did is it confirmed the belief

00:05:57.600 that a lot of people have about the NDP.

00:05:59.780 Fair or not that they are blunderers when it comes to the economy.

00:06:03.360 And I think from that point on, it was smooth sailing for the UCP.

00:06:07.520 So it's kind of a postmortem here,

00:06:09.940 but I guess let's talk about the corporate tax increase

00:06:12.820 maybe as maybe a broader, maybe a bellwether issue

00:06:17.580 for where the NDP goes from here.

00:06:22.060 Yeah, it hurt them, I think, with a lot of business conscious Calgary voters.

00:06:26.740 I think the NDP make the mistake of thinking that

00:06:28.680 unless you are the CEO of a corporation,

00:06:31.740 you don't care about corporate taxes.

00:06:33.480 And in general, most people are in favor of high taxes on other people,

00:06:38.500 just not for themselves.

00:06:39.800 And while most people aren't directly paying corporate taxes

00:06:43.100 and they don't really understand how that might filter down

00:06:45.560 into the broader business climate and cost of living, that kind of thing.

00:06:49.860 But part of me was also thinking,

00:06:51.920 if the NDP didn't run on raising corporate taxes,

00:06:55.320 what's the point of the NDP?

00:06:56.880 Like, because I'm trying to put myself in the eyes of an NDP voter,

00:07:04.780 not someone who's right in the middle,

00:07:06.120 because, you know, parties are coalitions.

00:07:08.860 And, you know, you have to buy a la carte.

00:07:13.060 You have to buy the whole thing.

00:07:14.100 It's not a buffet.

00:07:14.980 It's a la carte.

00:07:15.600 You have to take the whole thing.

00:07:19.820 Was it wrong, just from an electoral perspective,

00:07:22.500 if the NDP didn't have that, there wouldn't have been a lot of...

00:07:27.260 That was kind of the red meat for the NDP voter.

00:07:30.380 Didn't they still need to do that to still stay new Democrats?

00:07:34.000 Well, you'll notice that Daniel Smith didn't give any red meat to her base.

00:07:38.140 You know, the whole election campaign was

00:07:39.700 when she was actually out in public talking to the media,

00:07:42.940 which was not very often.

00:07:43.940 But their message was completely vegetarian.

00:07:47.660 It was, we're going to protect health care.

00:07:49.900 We're not going to, you know, relitigate COVID.

00:07:53.520 And we're going to be good for the economy.

00:07:55.160 They stayed away from their red meat.

00:07:56.620 So I don't know why the NDP thought that they needed to serve up

00:07:59.240 a big piece of their red meat to their base.

00:08:02.780 You know, they seem to be trying to pass a test

00:08:05.800 that no one was marking them on,

00:08:07.200 which is, can you balance the budget?

00:08:09.200 It's the same mistake that Tom Mulcair made in 2015, right?

00:08:11.900 He said, you know, when the polls showed they were in the lead,

00:08:14.180 he came out and he said, we're going to balance the budget.

00:08:15.760 We're going to be responsible.

00:08:17.100 And the liberals just went right around to the other side of them

00:08:19.420 and said, well, we'll run deficits.

00:08:21.180 And they got elected.

00:08:22.280 Canadians don't care about balanced budgets

00:08:24.900 as much as I think some people wish they did.

00:08:27.300 I agree with you.

00:08:27.920 But I mean, it is Alberta

00:08:29.340 and we're not as conservative as the stereotype would have it.

00:08:32.720 But I think voters here are still more conscious

00:08:35.340 of fiscal management, economic management

00:08:38.120 than in other parts of the country, at least proportionately.

00:08:42.240 And I don't think core new Democrat voters particularly care.

00:08:46.380 But I mean, that sweet spot, you know, those swing voters,

00:08:51.060 the soccer moms, to use the overused demographic in Calgary,

00:08:55.420 a lot of them do, I think.

00:08:57.420 And the NDP was still seen as a risky option for many.

00:09:02.020 I think they care less about whether the budget is balanced

00:09:05.820 than they care about whether the economy is in good hands.

00:09:09.080 And I think those two things are separate

00:09:10.260 because as we've seen, you know, over the last few years,

00:09:14.740 the UCP wasn't any better at balancing the budget than the NDs

00:09:17.820 until they got this giant windfall of oil and gas revenue.

00:09:20.920 And honestly, like a blind monkey

00:09:22.940 could have balanced that budget last year.

00:09:24.540 It was, there was so much non-renewable resource revenue.

00:09:27.460 They didn't know what to do with it.

00:09:28.740 I think it's more that the soccer moms,

00:09:31.420 the sort of voters at the NDs are trying to win over,

00:09:33.700 they want to know that the tide is going to stay in.

00:09:36.380 They want the rising tide.

00:09:38.080 And I think that's where the corporate tax thing comes into play.

00:09:40.260 You're right that most people maybe don't understand

00:09:42.280 how it filters down to their jobs.

00:09:44.040 What does it mean if you cut taxes?

00:09:45.500 What does it mean if you raise them?

00:09:46.440 But they understand when things are good in Calgary

00:09:49.280 for the corporate sector, when, you know,

00:09:50.940 when the oil and gas companies are doing well,

00:09:52.780 I tend to do well.

00:09:53.800 My kids tend to do well.

00:09:55.460 And I think they make that correlation more strongly.

00:09:58.160 Even the people in downtown Toronto,

00:09:59.720 you know, downtown Toronto has way more towers

00:10:02.160 than Calgary does.

00:10:03.800 The people in downtown Toronto don't identify

00:10:06.160 with the corporate sector the way people in Calgary do.

00:10:09.280 And I know that frustrates New Democrats,

00:10:11.500 especially frustrates the ones up in Edmonton.

00:10:13.880 But that's just the way it is.

00:10:16.700 It, you know, politics is not fair.

00:10:18.940 And they have to play the hand they're dealt.

00:10:20.800 And I really think with the corporate tax increase

00:10:23.800 that they floated the mid-campaign,

00:10:25.560 they played the wrong hand.

00:10:26.520 So, I think the, you know, historically,

00:10:31.980 if you got, so the UCP got 52.6% of the vote here.

00:10:35.320 Historically, that yields you a massive majority government.

00:10:38.580 I mean, it is not the highest vote share

00:10:41.120 in Alberta history, but it's in the top few.

00:10:43.440 You know, in, so, you know, compared to 2019,

00:10:50.520 the UCP got 54.9% of the vote with Kenny.

00:10:56.100 They went down barely two points, 52.6%.

00:11:00.420 That should have, you know, if all the other non-UCP votes

00:11:04.620 had stayed the same, that would have roughly cost them

00:11:07.340 two seats, three seats.

00:11:09.180 It would have been inconsequential.

00:11:11.900 I think the clear difference in this campaign

00:11:13.920 is that the NDP has hyper-consolidated the left,

00:11:17.560 for lack of a better term.

00:11:18.820 They did it mostly in 2015

00:11:21.460 when they collapsed the liberals behind themselves.

00:11:24.780 They finished digesting them in 2019.

00:11:27.420 Liberals lost the remnant of their vote

00:11:29.640 and they lost their last seat.

00:11:32.820 At this time, they ate the Alberta party.

00:11:34.940 So when the NDP lost power and Kenny won in 2019,

00:11:40.040 the NDP had gone down to 32.7% of the vote.

00:11:45.480 The Alberta party had 9.1%.

00:11:47.320 The Alberta party collapsed, not even collapsed,

00:11:50.500 just disintegrated to 0.7% this time,

00:11:53.440 and the NDP came up to 44%.

00:11:55.200 So they pretty much just ate the Alberta party alive.

00:11:57.680 This is the last time we're ever going to talk

00:11:59.980 about the Alberta party.

00:12:00.760 I'm sick of the media always talking about these guys

00:12:03.060 because it's just a weird media fascination

00:12:06.220 that some have with them.

00:12:08.500 I think we can finally take them off the table.

00:12:13.420 But to keep, I guess we have a,

00:12:15.800 it's a new, interesting, new Democrat coalition.

00:12:21.440 And by consolidating there, though,

00:12:23.260 they've made it such a, they've made it competitive,

00:12:25.340 even though the UCP vote pretty much stayed.

00:12:28.260 Smith brought those Wild Rosers back in

00:12:30.120 that had been fleeing the tent under Kenny.

00:12:32.820 And almost entirely, she kept the PCs there.

00:12:36.420 Like the UCP vote held, it's just that the vote,

00:12:38.920 the non-UCP vote completely changed.

00:12:43.640 How do you think the NDP holds that coalition

00:12:46.560 together going forward?

00:12:49.100 That's the challenge.

00:12:51.540 That's the big challenge for them.

00:12:52.980 And expand it.

00:12:54.120 Yeah, they've been very successful in that part.

00:12:56.700 I mean, I'm always skeptical of narratives

00:13:01.060 coming from losing parties in elections saying,

00:13:03.280 well, you know, it was a moral victory

00:13:05.000 because of X, Y, and Z.

00:13:06.180 There are no moral victories in politics.

00:13:07.720 You either win or you lose.

00:13:08.940 And they lost.

00:13:09.840 But it is a success that they have collapsed

00:13:13.360 all of the non-conservative parties around them.

00:13:16.060 I think that is probably a fairly permanent fixture.

00:13:20.740 If there's going to be any leakage from the NDP,

00:13:22.920 I suspect it'll be on their left,

00:13:24.840 not towards the middle.

00:13:26.120 The Greens were technically the third place party.

00:13:27.520 Yeah, exactly.

00:13:28.240 So that is a very new dynamic in Alberta politics.

00:13:30.960 That sort of centrist part of the electorate,

00:13:35.140 which has bounced around between the Alberta liberals.

00:13:37.380 They flirted with the Alberta party.

00:13:38.880 And, you know, I was guilty of that.

00:13:40.960 I liked the idea.

00:13:42.800 It's all orange now.

00:13:44.480 You know, I think there are some good things for them

00:13:47.740 in the next little while.

00:13:48.700 There's more people moving to Calgary, moving to Alberta.

00:13:51.160 They tend to be moving into the places

00:13:52.820 where the NDP is strong.

00:13:54.380 They tend to be moving from parts of the country

00:13:56.040 that are a little less conservative.

00:13:57.840 We have a redistricting coming up in the next few years,

00:14:00.440 which will add a few more seats

00:14:01.700 to sort of the downtown parts of,

00:14:04.080 or the more urban parts of Alberta.

00:14:05.640 So that should expand their map, such as it is.

00:14:10.380 But there still seems to be a hard ceiling there, right?

00:14:13.700 There still seems to be about five or six points

00:14:15.660 between structurally where they are

00:14:17.880 and structurally where the conservatives are.

00:14:20.420 And they've got to figure out how they bridge that.

00:14:23.420 I think part of that is spending more time

00:14:26.020 in the Lethbridges, the Red Deers, the Medicine Hats.

00:14:28.340 They have to grow their map in those parts of the province.

00:14:31.740 And part of it is telling a better economic story.

00:14:34.400 They have to be better at speaking that language.

00:14:36.600 I know they don't like practicing it.

00:14:38.140 It's like, you know, when you're in elementary school

00:14:39.980 and you have French homework, you don't want to do it.

00:14:41.540 Well, too bad, you've got to learn how to speak French

00:14:43.420 if you want to win an election in this province,

00:14:45.460 French being the economy.

00:14:48.160 I think they have to hope that the right fragments.

00:14:52.520 I think Daniel Smith has done a very masterful job,

00:14:55.340 like you said, of knitting everything together.

00:14:57.400 The sort of further right portion,

00:14:59.380 the Wilder's Independence Party vote

00:15:02.200 came together under her.

00:15:04.040 You know, she really has done a better job of that,

00:15:07.720 I think, than most people expected.

00:15:08.980 The question is whether she can do it

00:15:11.440 under more difficult circumstances.

00:15:13.380 You know, she came into power

00:15:15.400 when everything was good, right?

00:15:17.660 The mandates were rolling off,

00:15:19.740 economy was getting stronger,

00:15:21.300 biggest budget surplus in Alberta history,

00:15:23.740 oil and gas prices going through the roof.

00:15:25.820 It's hard to screw up when you keep winning the lottery.

00:15:29.360 It'll be a different story, I think,

00:15:31.000 when she faces some harder tests.

00:15:33.240 And she has kind of tipped that hand already

00:15:36.040 when she talked about, you know,

00:15:37.220 when she was explaining her comments during COVID,

00:15:39.620 the Nazi stuff, the unvaccinated people

00:15:42.880 are the most discriminated people in history stuff.

00:15:45.160 She said, well, it was the pandemic,

00:15:47.020 I was having a hard time,

00:15:47.960 like everyone was kind of at a raw edge.

00:15:50.940 What happens when she has another raw edge?

00:15:52.800 How does she react to it?

00:15:53.880 How does she respond?

00:15:55.140 I'm not sure we know.

00:15:56.460 And I think her response to harder times

00:15:59.220 will tell us whether the conservative coalition

00:16:01.600 in Alberta remains united

00:16:03.020 or whether it pulls apart again.

00:16:04.800 And if it pulls apart,

00:16:06.640 the NDP is going to win the next election.

00:16:09.260 Governing is almost certainly more difficult

00:16:11.200 than campaigning.

00:16:12.340 And you've pointed out your column

00:16:14.280 and I've pointed out,

00:16:15.460 I think in every column I've written the last year,

00:16:17.220 conservative leaders in Alberta

00:16:18.260 have a very short shelf life.

00:16:20.360 If she could even make it

00:16:21.200 to the next election campaign,

00:16:23.260 well, that'd be the first time

00:16:24.760 since I think the two of us were in high school

00:16:26.900 that any conservative has done it.

00:16:28.280 I want to point to some paragraph

00:16:33.740 from your column here of May 31st,

00:16:36.460 titled,

00:16:37.280 Rachel Notley's NDP needs to finish the job,

00:16:39.340 kind of playing on something

00:16:40.040 that she said on election night.

00:16:42.680 She said,

00:16:42.980 there will be calls for a return

00:16:45.300 to the NDP's more ideologically strident past

00:16:47.800 or catering to suburban Calgary voters

00:16:50.260 was never much of a consideration.

00:16:52.440 They'll argue a more authentically left-wing party,

00:16:54.700 one that campaigns more aggressively

00:16:56.200 on climate change and social justice,

00:16:58.280 wouldn't alienate young voters they need.

00:17:00.920 That would be an even bigger mistake.

00:17:03.340 So I want to talk about the paths forward here.

00:17:08.300 The conventional wisdom in Canadian politics

00:17:11.340 and most places is you win in the center.

00:17:14.860 And that is sometimes true,

00:17:16.280 but very often not.

00:17:19.120 You know, when conservatives lose elections,

00:17:20.560 they generally draw one of two conclusions.

00:17:23.620 We moved too far to the center

00:17:25.060 and didn't energize our base

00:17:26.840 or two,

00:17:28.140 we went too far to the right

00:17:29.140 and alienated middle-of-the-road voters.

00:17:31.980 And every election,

00:17:35.040 generally half of conservatives draw one conclusion,

00:17:37.520 the other half draw the other conclusion.

00:17:40.840 You've drawn the conclusion

00:17:42.040 that the NDP needs to continue

00:17:44.040 to tack into the center.

00:17:45.920 I mean, this being Alberta,

00:17:48.280 that's probably true.

00:17:51.700 But I want to give some airing to the argument

00:17:54.240 that maybe they didn't juice up their base enough.

00:17:57.580 They could have turned out more people

00:17:59.300 if they had given them more of a cause

00:18:02.680 to vote for them

00:18:03.520 than just a cause to vote against the NDP.

00:18:06.820 Because clearly,

00:18:07.520 if the NDP ends up in a leadership contest here,

00:18:10.240 there's going to be people

00:18:10.940 from representing both wings of that party

00:18:13.560 making both arguments.

00:18:18.120 How much of a case do they...

00:18:19.260 You don't seem to think they have a good case,

00:18:21.480 but is there anything to it?

00:18:23.920 I mean, yeah.

00:18:24.540 I don't buy the case

00:18:25.720 that they needed to throw more red meat to the base.

00:18:29.280 Now, you know,

00:18:30.180 cards on the table,

00:18:31.060 I am constitutionally a liberal, right?

00:18:33.720 I am a centrist.

00:18:34.840 I tend to be a more moderate person.

00:18:37.520 So the idea of firing up your base

00:18:39.800 to win elections

00:18:40.520 has never really kind of resonated with me.

00:18:43.180 I think if you look at the ridings

00:18:45.260 where they almost won

00:18:46.200 and the ridings where they barely won,

00:18:48.380 there's not a lot of young people there.

00:18:49.760 There's not a lot of people

00:18:51.740 in their sort of traditional base

00:18:53.740 that needed to be fired up.

00:18:54.980 It's a lot of, like you said,

00:18:56.560 soccer moms.

00:18:57.260 It's a lot of families.

00:18:58.260 It's a lot of people

00:18:59.800 who work in downtown Calgary,

00:19:01.400 but, you know,

00:19:02.400 commute out to the suburbs.

00:19:04.200 These are not people

00:19:05.060 who sort of strike me

00:19:06.520 as NDP radicals or firebrands.

00:19:10.060 You know, I think they are people

00:19:11.400 who would vote reluctantly

00:19:13.220 for the NDP.

00:19:14.480 But guess what?

00:19:15.020 A reluctant vote counts

00:19:16.100 just the same as an enthusiastic one.

00:19:18.540 And I think that's where

00:19:19.200 their focus has to be.

00:19:20.160 And you're absolutely right

00:19:21.280 that, you know,

00:19:21.760 there's talk about

00:19:22.500 will Ms. Notley step down?

00:19:25.120 You know, I think in time

00:19:26.140 she probably will.

00:19:27.280 She's, you know,

00:19:27.940 digesting the results.

00:19:29.020 But it seems pretty clear to me

00:19:30.620 that a third campaign,

00:19:32.360 fourth campaign,

00:19:32.940 I guess, with her as the leader

00:19:33.920 probably isn't going

00:19:35.520 to change anything.

00:19:36.340 That would really be hoping

00:19:38.120 that the conservatives collapse.

00:19:40.000 And that's what they tried.

00:19:41.000 Which is always possible.

00:19:42.120 It is.

00:19:42.540 But that was really

00:19:43.320 what they tried to do this time.

00:19:44.740 They were waiting

00:19:45.580 for Danielle Smith to fall down.

00:19:47.720 And she didn't.

00:19:49.060 So I would not recommend

00:19:50.320 that as a course of action.

00:19:52.000 So as they look forward,

00:19:53.620 do they want a leader

00:19:54.300 who is more sort of

00:19:55.920 to the union,

00:19:57.480 labor base,

00:19:58.240 environmental base?

00:19:59.400 Or do they want someone

00:20:00.260 who's a little more

00:20:00.740 business friendly?

00:20:01.960 And I've heard, you know,

00:20:03.240 there's definitely an energy

00:20:04.320 for going back to basics,

00:20:07.160 I guess, as they would say.

00:20:08.240 You know, there's a,

00:20:10.300 it's interesting.

00:20:11.000 I think conservatives

00:20:11.660 and New Democrats

00:20:12.260 have more in common

00:20:13.040 with each other

00:20:13.640 than they do with liberals.

00:20:14.780 Because liberals

00:20:15.500 really like to win.

00:20:18.080 And on some level

00:20:19.420 don't really care

00:20:19.900 how they do it.

00:20:20.640 Which is either a good thing

00:20:22.260 or a bad thing

00:20:22.800 depending on where you sit.

00:20:23.860 But conservatives

00:20:25.140 and New Democrats,

00:20:26.020 they have portions

00:20:26.880 in their base

00:20:27.620 that would rather lose

00:20:28.760 with integrity

00:20:29.320 than win

00:20:30.340 by compromising their values.

00:20:32.400 And there's a lot

00:20:33.000 of New Democrats

00:20:33.540 who look at this campaign

00:20:34.560 and go,

00:20:34.920 well, what was that all for?

00:20:36.100 Why did we even do that?

00:20:37.360 You know, we got close to power.

00:20:38.920 We said all these things

00:20:39.880 that we don't believe

00:20:40.960 and look where we are.

00:20:42.180 I don't think

00:20:43.340 that's the right instinct.

00:20:44.180 I think if they go back,

00:20:45.200 if they pick a leader

00:20:45.940 who is more sort of

00:20:47.280 stridently ideologically

00:20:48.520 left wing,

00:20:49.560 they can go back

00:20:50.200 to 10 seats

00:20:50.780 in a heartbeat, right?

00:20:52.000 The idea that this

00:20:52.960 is sort of their baseline

00:20:54.380 and they're always

00:20:55.180 going to have 45%

00:20:56.140 of the vote.

00:20:56.960 A lot of that vote

00:20:58.020 that coalesced around them

00:20:59.200 can coalesce somewhere else.

00:21:00.780 It is not bound to them

00:21:02.260 in any way, shape or form.

00:21:03.820 So they need to continue

00:21:05.420 doing the work

00:21:06.180 that they've been doing

00:21:07.120 over the last little while,

00:21:08.480 learn the lessons

00:21:09.180 from the things

00:21:10.000 they didn't do right in this

00:21:11.040 and find a leader

00:21:12.240 who can maybe

00:21:13.760 isn't from Calgary

00:21:14.700 but can speak to Calgary,

00:21:16.460 can speak to Red Deer,

00:21:17.400 can speak to Medicine Hat

00:21:18.480 in ways that gets them

00:21:21.000 a better hearing

00:21:21.680 than I think they got

00:21:22.720 in this election.

00:21:23.380 Look, Rachel Notley

00:21:24.100 is incredibly popular

00:21:25.040 in Edmonton.

00:21:25.600 She's less popular here

00:21:27.160 and I don't think

00:21:29.660 that the NDP

00:21:30.240 entirely understood that.

00:21:31.840 I don't think

00:21:32.240 the NDP brain trust

00:21:33.720 in Edmonton understood that

00:21:34.820 and I know the NDP campaigners

00:21:36.900 that came from other parts

00:21:37.740 of the country

00:21:38.140 didn't understand that.

00:21:40.040 And the delta

00:21:40.800 and kind of net favorabilities

00:21:42.960 between Notley

00:21:44.040 and Smith

00:21:44.760 in Calgary

00:21:46.200 came to almost

00:21:47.040 nothing by the end.

00:21:48.760 Smith started

00:21:49.320 with a significant deficit

00:21:50.360 but by the end

00:21:51.120 they were pretty much a draw

00:21:52.800 and the NDP

00:21:53.500 tried to make the campaign

00:21:54.880 about just leadership

00:21:56.320 and leadership

00:21:56.980 pretty much netted out

00:21:58.280 and at the end of the day

00:21:59.660 Calgarians are probably

00:22:00.720 going to default

00:22:01.600 to the blue team

00:22:02.760 because it's got

00:22:03.720 home ice advantage.

00:22:04.820 100%.

00:22:05.180 They start the game

00:22:05.980 with three goals

00:22:07.400 on the score, right?

00:22:08.700 Yeah.

00:22:09.920 It's like me trying

00:22:10.960 to become mayor

00:22:12.280 of Montreal.

00:22:14.360 It's a tough climb.

00:22:15.480 It's a tough climb

00:22:16.100 and you don't

00:22:17.500 complete those climbs

00:22:19.000 by ignoring the reality

00:22:20.320 of it, you know,

00:22:21.220 and saying,

00:22:22.140 well,

00:22:22.220 I can climb this mountain

00:22:24.060 no big deal

00:22:24.680 and then you die

00:22:25.360 on the slope, right?

00:22:26.240 And I think

00:22:26.900 there's still a part

00:22:28.520 of the NDP

00:22:29.020 sort of brain trust

00:22:30.160 that really objects

00:22:31.660 to the state of play

00:22:32.660 in Calgary.

00:22:33.120 They think it's unfair

00:22:33.840 to which I say

00:22:35.060 too bad, right?

00:22:36.500 It is what it is.

00:22:37.840 You've done incredibly well

00:22:39.080 compared to where

00:22:39.960 even in 2015

00:22:41.300 they did down here.

00:22:43.440 You know,

00:22:43.680 I think they have

00:22:44.220 more purchase

00:22:44.840 with a lot of voters

00:22:47.340 than they ever thought

00:22:48.600 they could.

00:22:49.060 You know,

00:22:49.160 the idea of a NDP candidate

00:22:51.560 winning in Calgary

00:22:52.500 elbow with no vote split

00:22:54.100 or a minimal vote split

00:22:56.540 is astonishing, right?

00:22:59.020 Even in 2015

00:22:59.900 that wasn't a thing

00:23:00.580 they could do.

00:23:01.140 So they've made gains.

00:23:03.360 Don't flush those gains

00:23:04.880 down the toilet

00:23:05.520 out of frustration.

00:23:07.360 Before we move on

00:23:08.240 to media,

00:23:09.240 I want to get into

00:23:10.120 just leadership

00:23:10.960 really quickly.

00:23:13.040 This is a bit more

00:23:13.820 speculative, I think,

00:23:15.140 because it's more

00:23:15.940 specific individuals.

00:23:20.480 This is going to be

00:23:21.000 kind of a pin the tail

00:23:21.720 on the donkey.

00:23:22.640 I'm going to try

00:23:23.380 to make it just

00:23:23.860 make some wild bets here

00:23:25.460 that, you know,

00:23:26.360 you're not going to want

00:23:26.900 to make,

00:23:27.180 but I'm going to try

00:23:27.640 and make.

00:23:27.800 I love wild bets.

00:23:30.000 You know,

00:23:30.360 I think we have an idea

00:23:31.440 of, you know,

00:23:31.860 who would be kind of

00:23:32.500 carrying the left banner

00:23:33.640 of the NDP

00:23:34.540 in a likely leadership

00:23:36.580 contest coming up.

00:23:37.580 Shannon Phillips,

00:23:39.740 Janice Irwin,

00:23:43.300 they have another...

00:23:44.980 Sarah Hoffman.

00:23:46.040 Sarah Hoffman,

00:23:46.880 and then another one

00:23:47.920 who was just elect

00:23:48.420 in 2019.

00:23:49.720 Seems very capable.

00:23:51.140 Her name escapes me.

00:23:51.960 Rocky Pancholi.

00:23:52.780 Yeah, yeah.

00:23:53.260 Your favorite, yeah.

00:23:55.200 Although I'm not sure

00:23:56.200 where she would fit

00:23:57.640 necessarily in the party,

00:23:58.560 but you're going to have

00:23:59.940 your left banner carriers.

00:24:02.240 And then I think

00:24:02.800 there might be outsiders

00:24:04.300 who are not currently MLAs.

00:24:06.040 I'm thinking Nahid Nenshi.

00:24:08.340 Ted Hirsch.

00:24:09.220 People who would put

00:24:09.760 a very different

00:24:10.760 foot forward

00:24:13.060 for the NDP

00:24:13.740 that would be,

00:24:14.920 I think,

00:24:15.380 perceived as

00:24:15.980 not tied to the old

00:24:17.920 NDP traditions

00:24:18.960 of Calgary itself.

00:24:23.180 Make a wild prediction.

00:24:24.760 Two things.

00:24:25.560 One,

00:24:25.860 who would be the

00:24:26.560 best dream leader

00:24:28.380 for the NDP

00:24:29.640 from an electoral perspective?

00:24:33.160 And then two,

00:24:33.720 who do you think

00:24:34.440 is going to be...

00:24:35.700 And I know that's wild

00:24:36.720 and you're going

00:24:37.200 to be wrong

00:24:37.720 because it's a wild

00:24:38.680 guess to make.

00:24:39.560 Yeah.

00:24:41.460 I guess I'll start

00:24:42.440 by pushing back

00:24:43.960 a little bit

00:24:44.720 on the way

00:24:45.280 you've categorized them.

00:24:47.120 So full disclosure,

00:24:49.640 I worked for Shannon Phillips,

00:24:51.000 not directly,

00:24:51.940 but in the government

00:24:53.020 of Alberta

00:24:53.420 and her climate change office.

00:24:54.740 I don't think

00:24:55.460 she's on the left flank.

00:24:57.400 Well, I know

00:24:57.620 she's not the furthest left.

00:24:58.660 Like she,

00:24:59.560 you know,

00:24:59.800 she was the finance critic.

00:25:01.220 She's actually been quite,

00:25:02.320 I think,

00:25:03.600 eloquent and effective

00:25:04.960 at talking about

00:25:06.320 the oil and gas industry,

00:25:07.360 at talking about

00:25:08.060 things in a way

00:25:09.040 that are frankly

00:25:10.340 more liberal

00:25:11.060 federally

00:25:12.120 than New Democrats.

00:25:13.340 So I kind of put

00:25:14.420 Shannon in the middle.

00:25:17.140 I'm not sure that,

00:25:18.260 I'm not sure she wants it,

00:25:19.520 but I think having someone

00:25:20.760 outside of Edmonton

00:25:21.600 would be a great idea.

00:25:24.800 You know,

00:25:26.280 Nenshi is sort of like

00:25:27.240 the wet dream

00:25:28.580 that progressives

00:25:29.800 in Calgary have

00:25:30.640 and have had for a long time.

00:25:32.060 You know,

00:25:32.420 if we could just get,

00:25:33.100 if we could just get

00:25:33.960 Nenshi running the party,

00:25:35.080 it would be amazing.

00:25:36.340 And I think he would be

00:25:37.880 a good leader.

00:25:40.080 I don't think,

00:25:40.980 I don't think the NDP

00:25:42.120 would ever accept him.

00:25:44.280 He,

00:25:44.400 he would be rejected

00:25:46.280 by that party

00:25:46.980 the same way

00:25:47.640 if you just tried

00:25:48.560 to put a,

00:25:49.120 you know,

00:25:49.500 a different species's organ

00:25:51.360 inside a human being.

00:25:52.760 It,

00:25:53.120 the body would not

00:25:54.060 take to it.

00:25:54.960 New Democrats are,

00:25:56.720 for better or worse,

00:25:57.540 I think very loyal

00:25:59.180 and very attentive

00:26:00.900 to loyalty.

00:26:02.040 And so if they do not

00:26:03.380 believe that you have

00:26:04.500 been in the party

00:26:05.100 long enough,

00:26:05.660 if you've not paid

00:26:06.300 your dues,

00:26:07.240 if you have not served,

00:26:08.960 they are not particularly

00:26:09.960 interested in being,

00:26:11.500 in serving you.

00:26:12.560 So I think

00:26:13.420 that's one of the problems

00:26:14.500 with the Nenshi name.

00:26:15.860 I also think

00:26:16.420 he's perfect

00:26:17.540 for municipal politics

00:26:18.600 because he can kind of

00:26:19.380 go back and forth.

00:26:20.600 He's not ideologically

00:26:21.860 hemmed in on any one issue.

00:26:24.320 I'm not sure

00:26:25.060 that he would like

00:26:25.720 provincial politics

00:26:26.780 as much as he likes

00:26:27.940 municipal politics,

00:26:29.560 but...

00:26:29.940 I'm also not sure

00:26:30.420 he would be good

00:26:31.100 in more of the

00:26:32.140 team-based politics

00:26:34.820 of a Westminster system

00:26:36.600 where he has to,

00:26:38.620 you know,

00:26:38.880 as mayor,

00:26:39.420 he speaks for himself.

00:26:40.580 And he can try to

00:26:41.060 corral council around,

00:26:43.120 but I feel like

00:26:43.840 he'd have a hard time

00:26:44.840 with caucus management.

00:26:46.180 A hundred percent.

00:26:47.120 Yeah.

00:26:47.680 I think he would be

00:26:48.500 impatient.

00:26:50.020 In the same way

00:26:50.940 that Pierre Trudeau

00:26:51.800 was impatient

00:26:52.460 with his caucus members,

00:26:54.220 you know,

00:26:55.620 I think it's the same vibe

00:26:56.940 and I respect the vibe.

00:26:58.560 I'm just not sure

00:26:59.420 that it's the right fit

00:27:00.180 right now.

00:27:00.580 Now, Todd Hirsch,

00:27:02.160 I mean,

00:27:02.440 if he was going to run,

00:27:03.180 he should have run this time.

00:27:04.200 I love Todd.

00:27:04.860 I think he's very,

00:27:05.500 very smart.

00:27:06.340 You know,

00:27:06.660 his policies

00:27:08.180 that he put out

00:27:08.920 for the NDs

00:27:09.540 around the economy,

00:27:10.400 I thought were really...

00:27:11.680 I mean,

00:27:11.920 they're what we need.

00:27:12.580 We need to have a conversation

00:27:13.540 about how we get off

00:27:15.060 this roller coaster

00:27:15.840 of being sort of wedded

00:27:16.860 to resource royalties

00:27:18.380 where we,

00:27:19.120 you know,

00:27:19.360 we go from being rich

00:27:20.340 to being broke

00:27:21.160 to being rich

00:27:21.760 to being broke.

00:27:22.440 And I think it would be great

00:27:24.560 if Danielle Smith

00:27:25.120 took a look at some of those

00:27:26.100 and maybe incorporated

00:27:27.960 those into her approach

00:27:28.960 to managing the economy.

00:27:30.280 But if he was not willing

00:27:31.780 to stand behind those ideas

00:27:32.960 in this campaign,

00:27:34.240 I'm not sure why

00:27:35.540 he would be willing

00:27:36.720 to run for the leadership

00:27:37.860 in the next campaign.

00:27:38.240 Is he the Mark Carney

00:27:39.060 of the NDP now?

00:27:40.440 A little bit.

00:27:41.080 In the sense that,

00:27:42.080 like,

00:27:42.220 he's the one that gets

00:27:42.940 economists really excited,

00:27:44.280 but when it comes

00:27:45.020 to the sort of rank and file,

00:27:46.560 it's just not there.

00:27:47.840 You know,

00:27:48.000 I mean,

00:27:48.340 yeah,

00:27:48.840 I think,

00:27:50.060 again,

00:27:50.880 love Mark Carney.

00:27:52.240 I think as a leader

00:27:53.060 of the Liberal Party,

00:27:54.340 he'd be a disaster.

00:27:55.420 And I think it would be

00:27:56.100 the same thing

00:27:57.020 with any economist.

00:27:58.880 I'm not sure

00:27:59.520 that they have the ability

00:28:00.700 to talk to people

00:28:02.300 and meet people

00:28:02.940 where they are

00:28:03.580 in the way

00:28:03.980 that you need to

00:28:04.620 to be an effective politician.

00:28:07.440 I think Rocky Pancholi,

00:28:08.800 so she's not,

00:28:09.440 I would not put her

00:28:09.980 on the left.

00:28:10.680 I would put her

00:28:11.060 in the middle.

00:28:13.140 Middle of the NDP?

00:28:14.220 Yeah,

00:28:14.420 of the NDP,

00:28:15.000 which,

00:28:15.280 you know,

00:28:15.640 admittedly for your viewers

00:28:16.440 is,

00:28:16.740 you know,

00:28:17.220 to the left

00:28:17.620 of the Communist Party,

00:28:18.500 but,

00:28:18.960 you know,

00:28:20.040 she is,

00:28:20.880 she understands business.

00:28:22.000 She's a lawyer.

00:28:22.980 She,

00:28:23.200 you know,

00:28:23.400 she used to work

00:28:23.940 in the service industry.

00:28:24.820 She knows how to talk

00:28:25.460 to people.

00:28:26.360 She's very likable.

00:28:27.880 She's not ideological.

00:28:29.680 She's from South Edmonton,

00:28:31.460 so not from that sort

00:28:32.300 of more urban

00:28:33.420 kind of progressive Edmonton.

00:28:37.280 You know,

00:28:37.540 she has to meet people

00:28:38.440 where they are.

00:28:39.760 She,

00:28:40.060 you know,

00:28:40.280 I've seen her talking

00:28:41.260 to people in Calgary.

00:28:42.180 She speaks the language

00:28:43.180 down here.

00:28:44.020 I think she would

00:28:44.540 be very effective.

00:28:45.440 I think the question

00:28:46.320 is whether,

00:28:46.980 you know,

00:28:48.840 the knotly wing

00:28:49.600 of the party

00:28:50.120 is ready to let go

00:28:51.600 of power,

00:28:52.300 and I'm not sure

00:28:53.960 they are.

00:28:54.520 I think they might

00:28:55.220 want to gravitate

00:28:56.000 towards someone

00:28:56.580 like Sarah Hoffman

00:28:58.600 or David Shepard,

00:28:59.760 who is the MLA

00:29:00.680 for Edmonton Center,

00:29:02.140 and I have lots

00:29:04.700 of respect

00:29:05.020 for those people.

00:29:06.040 I think that would be

00:29:07.060 kind of disastrous.

00:29:08.860 Any leader

00:29:09.660 that comes within,

00:29:11.720 you know,

00:29:11.980 who comes from a riding

00:29:12.840 that is within

00:29:13.360 walking distance

00:29:14.100 from Edmonton Strathcona

00:29:15.220 is going to get

00:29:16.160 hammered down here.

00:29:17.780 There is just

00:29:18.520 a dispositional difference

00:29:19.960 that I think

00:29:21.120 Notley was able

00:29:21.800 to partially bridge

00:29:22.780 because she became

00:29:23.920 premier and had

00:29:25.240 that sort of sheen

00:29:26.240 of authority

00:29:27.160 and credibility,

00:29:29.720 but if you're

00:29:30.260 sort of a new leader

00:29:31.040 from an urban

00:29:31.880 Edmonton riding,

00:29:34.060 I don't know

00:29:34.880 how you do it.

00:29:35.460 I don't know

00:29:35.680 how you connect

00:29:36.060 with people down here.

00:29:37.760 Okay.

00:29:38.280 Well,

00:29:38.580 I want to switch gears

00:29:39.380 a bit into media.

00:29:42.380 So,

00:29:42.960 you know,

00:29:43.180 you're a lead columnist

00:29:43.860 for Canada's

00:29:44.480 National Observer.

00:29:46.020 Before we started

00:29:47.400 recording here,

00:29:49.240 we were talking

00:29:49.800 about how that's

00:29:50.220 actually a fairly

00:29:50.980 rare position now

00:29:52.700 in media

00:29:53.720 to have someone

00:29:54.300 who's just

00:29:54.720 full-time columnist.

00:29:56.680 Most,

00:29:57.320 99% of columnists

00:29:59.060 in this country

00:29:59.660 are freelancers.

00:30:02.480 So,

00:30:03.040 obviously,

00:30:03.820 National Observer

00:30:04.460 is doing something

00:30:05.340 right,

00:30:06.080 and it's

00:30:06.740 an independent.

00:30:07.420 it's become

00:30:10.320 a trope now

00:30:10.980 that media

00:30:11.800 is just

00:30:12.540 going bust

00:30:13.420 in Canada.

00:30:13.960 It's largely

00:30:14.740 a global phenomenon,

00:30:16.100 but in Canada,

00:30:17.740 we're at least

00:30:19.500 not on the light

00:30:20.460 end of a global

00:30:21.720 trend.

00:30:22.180 We're generally

00:30:23.160 considered to be

00:30:23.660 on the heavy

00:30:24.080 end of it.

00:30:25.140 The answer,

00:30:27.240 at least among

00:30:28.480 the powers that be,

00:30:29.780 seems to be

00:30:30.500 that it's direct

00:30:32.580 government intervention

00:30:33.640 to support it

00:30:35.300 as an industry

00:30:36.280 in general,

00:30:36.800 and some outlets

00:30:37.980 disproportionately

00:30:39.500 getting

00:30:40.020 the business

00:30:42.240 end of that

00:30:42.860 more than others.

00:30:44.220 It's been

00:30:44.780 bailouts,

00:30:46.240 which are,

00:30:47.120 I don't know,

00:30:47.880 four years old

00:30:48.720 now,

00:30:49.020 essentially.

00:30:50.300 It's got

00:30:50.960 Bill C-18

00:30:51.960 to kind of

00:30:54.040 reach into the

00:30:54.500 pockets of

00:30:55.100 the tech giants,

00:30:56.260 extract money there,

00:30:57.260 and theoretically

00:30:58.320 hand it to

00:30:59.380 media,

00:31:00.220 although

00:31:00.440 increasingly looks

00:31:01.780 like there's

00:31:02.600 actually going to

00:31:02.980 be zero dollars

00:31:03.640 to come from that.

00:31:04.180 It's just going to

00:31:04.660 mean less reach

00:31:05.860 to people through

00:31:06.500 social media and

00:31:07.100 Google and things

00:31:07.600 like that.

00:31:10.280 I'm sure there's

00:31:11.040 probably details

00:31:11.840 that you already

00:31:13.340 disagree with,

00:31:14.100 with the bailout,

00:31:14.920 C-18,

00:31:15.440 all these things.

00:31:15.920 I'm sure there's

00:31:16.600 details you'd

00:31:17.160 quibble with,

00:31:18.060 but in general,

00:31:19.240 do you think that

00:31:19.920 approach of kind of

00:31:21.260 a traditional

00:31:22.240 Canadian approach

00:31:23.200 to subsidizing

00:31:24.460 an industry that

00:31:25.720 we think is

00:31:26.700 important,

00:31:27.840 is it in general

00:31:28.720 going to work?

00:31:29.460 Oof.

00:31:31.840 So,

00:31:32.280 caveat,

00:31:32.860 caveat emptor

00:31:33.520 for your audience

00:31:34.520 because I'm sure

00:31:35.020 they're wondering.

00:31:36.200 So,

00:31:36.680 we do,

00:31:37.320 at the National

00:31:37.760 Observer,

00:31:38.240 get federal

00:31:39.360 funding through

00:31:40.160 what's called

00:31:40.580 the Local

00:31:40.960 Journalism

00:31:41.540 Initiative.

00:31:42.060 So,

00:31:42.200 that's a

00:31:42.440 program that

00:31:43.580 kind of

00:31:43.800 matches up

00:31:44.560 funding to

00:31:46.140 reporting in

00:31:47.440 areas that's not

00:31:48.100 being covered or

00:31:48.860 communities that

00:31:49.500 are not being

00:31:49.880 served.

00:31:50.600 I don't get a

00:31:51.300 penny.

00:31:51.760 My work stands

00:31:52.420 on its own.

00:31:53.360 It pays for

00:31:53.800 itself and then

00:31:54.400 some,

00:31:55.180 I don't get

00:31:55.740 any,

00:31:56.280 none of the

00:31:56.980 federal government's

00:31:57.720 money makes

00:31:58.120 its way into my

00:31:58.680 bank account.

00:31:59.160 So,

00:31:59.760 just put that

00:32:00.260 out there.

00:32:00.800 It pays for

00:32:01.340 certain individual

00:32:02.680 journalists within

00:32:03.680 it,

00:32:03.880 but not yourself.

00:32:04.540 Yeah,

00:32:04.720 exactly.

00:32:06.320 The Canadian

00:32:07.040 media is in a

00:32:07.820 tough place

00:32:08.380 because,

00:32:09.980 you know,

00:32:10.280 we don't have

00:32:10.720 the scale of

00:32:11.760 the United

00:32:12.040 States.

00:32:12.480 The United

00:32:12.700 States has,

00:32:13.360 you know,

00:32:14.020 10 times our

00:32:14.640 population and

00:32:15.420 so if you're

00:32:15.860 doing an

00:32:16.160 online venture,

00:32:18.180 it's much

00:32:19.080 easier to scale

00:32:19.820 up because you

00:32:20.480 just have a

00:32:21.420 pool of people

00:32:22.020 who are

00:32:22.260 interested in

00:32:22.800 what you're

00:32:23.040 writing about

00:32:23.500 that is 10

00:32:24.320 times as big.

00:32:25.980 And we don't

00:32:26.700 have the sort

00:32:27.240 of linguistic

00:32:28.200 barriers,

00:32:29.160 that you have

00:32:29.560 in Europe

00:32:29.900 where if

00:32:30.840 you're a

00:32:31.080 Dutch media

00:32:31.960 company,

00:32:32.720 there's only

00:32:32.920 so many people

00:32:34.680 in the world

00:32:34.980 that speak

00:32:35.360 Dutch and

00:32:36.300 they don't

00:32:36.740 exist outside

00:32:37.500 your borders.

00:32:38.080 You're not

00:32:38.240 going to have

00:32:38.460 to really compete

00:32:38.840 with the

00:32:39.060 French or the

00:32:39.620 Germans.

00:32:39.840 Exactly.

00:32:40.460 You're not

00:32:40.660 competing with,

00:32:41.620 never mind,

00:32:42.940 a combined

00:32:43.720 France-Germany

00:32:44.700 like we do

00:32:45.740 with America.

00:32:46.200 So I think

00:32:48.120 in some

00:32:48.380 respects we

00:32:48.840 have it

00:32:49.140 harder than

00:32:49.620 anywhere else

00:32:50.180 in the world

00:32:50.620 to build

00:32:51.460 a viable

00:32:52.280 media industry.

00:32:54.200 And so I

00:32:55.600 think the

00:32:55.900 government has

00:32:56.720 been well-meaning

00:32:59.020 in trying to

00:33:00.220 find a way

00:33:01.200 to ensure that

00:33:02.160 we have

00:33:02.720 journalism in

00:33:03.340 this country

00:33:03.720 because I

00:33:04.220 think whether

00:33:04.580 you're a

00:33:04.940 conservative or

00:33:05.640 whether you're

00:33:05.960 a progressive,

00:33:06.880 there should be

00:33:07.480 some basic

00:33:08.040 agreement that

00:33:08.660 we need

00:33:09.280 journalists

00:33:10.300 asking questions,

00:33:12.200 covering news,

00:33:13.540 and holding

00:33:14.460 people to

00:33:14.880 account.

00:33:15.440 That is a

00:33:16.060 function that

00:33:16.600 people will

00:33:17.040 not do on

00:33:17.560 their own.

00:33:18.040 You can't do

00:33:18.560 that on

00:33:18.820 Twitter,

00:33:19.480 on Facebook.

00:33:20.400 It requires

00:33:21.220 a skill set

00:33:22.340 that goes

00:33:23.000 beyond the

00:33:23.520 one that

00:33:23.800 most people

00:33:24.200 have.

00:33:24.580 And so we

00:33:24.840 need to

00:33:25.140 find a

00:33:25.500 way to

00:33:26.660 support the

00:33:27.840 business and

00:33:28.560 the activity

00:33:29.040 of news

00:33:29.420 gathering in

00:33:31.160 a way that

00:33:31.480 is non-prejudicial.

00:33:32.520 I think where

00:33:33.280 the concern

00:33:33.780 arises is

00:33:34.640 whether the

00:33:35.920 way they've

00:33:36.320 done it is

00:33:37.200 de facto

00:33:37.920 prejudicial.

00:33:38.940 Now I

00:33:39.300 would point

00:33:39.700 out...

00:33:39.980 I think

00:33:40.320 there's two

00:33:40.840 issues.

00:33:41.160 One is,

00:33:42.120 is it

00:33:42.540 creating

00:33:43.240 undue

00:33:43.800 political

00:33:44.200 pressure in

00:33:45.020 media?

00:33:46.020 And I'm

00:33:46.500 a publisher.

00:33:47.320 I'll tell you,

00:33:47.740 any publisher

00:33:48.180 who says

00:33:48.720 that you

00:33:49.820 don't care

00:33:50.600 about your

00:33:50.980 advertisers,

00:33:51.920 they're lying.

00:33:53.240 Of course we

00:33:53.940 care about

00:33:54.240 our advertisers.

00:33:55.020 We try to

00:33:55.320 put a

00:33:55.520 firewall between

00:33:56.120 it, but

00:33:56.840 we care.

00:33:58.780 But no one

00:33:59.760 source of

00:34:00.060 revenue for

00:34:00.400 us is more

00:34:00.940 than 5%.

00:34:01.960 The total

00:34:02.920 package of

00:34:03.420 bailouts for

00:34:04.120 a lot of

00:34:04.400 media is now

00:34:05.080 in excess of

00:34:05.820 33-40%.

00:34:07.560 That could

00:34:08.440 theoretically

00:34:08.780 become larger

00:34:09.540 now, over

00:34:10.120 50% with

00:34:10.820 C18.

00:34:11.260 I don't

00:34:14.100 want to talk

00:34:15.280 about the

00:34:15.520 morality of

00:34:16.560 it.

00:34:16.980 I know I've

00:34:17.740 talked about

00:34:18.200 that all the

00:34:18.580 time, about

00:34:18.860 how immoral

00:34:19.460 I think it

00:34:19.920 is, but

00:34:20.460 I want to

00:34:21.260 talk about

00:34:21.500 more of the

00:34:21.900 economics of

00:34:22.580 it.

00:34:23.520 Can, do

00:34:24.620 you believe

00:34:25.160 in general

00:34:26.300 that direct

00:34:28.160 government

00:34:28.660 support for

00:34:30.120 media, both

00:34:30.800 regulatory and

00:34:33.440 direct financial

00:34:34.720 support, in

00:34:36.520 the end is

00:34:37.120 going to work

00:34:37.860 in propping

00:34:38.900 up Canada's

00:34:40.280 media landscape

00:34:40.920 relatively as

00:34:43.140 it looks

00:34:43.400 today?

00:34:44.000 No, I

00:34:44.460 think what

00:34:44.840 it is doing

00:34:46.060 is slowing

00:34:47.040 the decline.

00:34:48.780 I think if

00:34:49.500 you gave

00:34:50.100 policymakers

00:34:50.960 truth serum,

00:34:53.600 you wouldn't

00:34:54.080 probably start

00:34:54.820 with this, but

00:34:55.440 you have other

00:34:56.140 questions, but

00:34:56.760 they would say

00:34:57.840 that this is

00:34:58.800 about supporting

00:35:00.420 the existing

00:35:00.960 infrastructure of

00:35:01.840 media until

00:35:03.040 the alternative

00:35:04.560 news media can

00:35:06.000 kind of scale

00:35:06.520 up and not

00:35:08.640 replace it, but

00:35:09.440 fulfill a lot of

00:35:10.680 the functions that

00:35:11.280 it has failed in

00:35:11.820 the past.

00:35:12.460 You would not

00:35:13.320 start a newspaper

00:35:14.300 company like

00:35:15.060 Post Media if

00:35:16.660 you were doing

00:35:17.320 something from

00:35:17.780 scratch today.

00:35:18.420 You wouldn't

00:35:18.700 have done it 10

00:35:19.200 years ago in a

00:35:20.000 lot of respects,

00:35:21.080 but they, I

00:35:22.160 think, understood

00:35:22.740 that if all the

00:35:24.320 papers in Edmonton,

00:35:25.360 Calgary, Vancouver,

00:35:26.240 Toronto, never

00:35:27.240 mind the small

00:35:27.800 communities across

00:35:28.480 the country, if

00:35:28.980 they all just

00:35:29.320 collapsed and

00:35:30.560 stopped operating

00:35:31.960 tomorrow, that

00:35:33.220 would do

00:35:33.420 tremendous damage

00:35:34.400 to the

00:35:35.280 communities that

00:35:35.860 they serve.

00:35:36.420 And so they

00:35:36.700 were trying to

00:35:37.500 find a way to

00:35:38.120 kind of keep

00:35:39.300 them on life

00:35:39.760 support until

00:35:41.040 other more

00:35:42.440 sort of robust

00:35:43.600 operations were

00:35:44.820 able to stand

00:35:45.440 up in those

00:35:45.920 communities.

00:35:46.800 I think the

00:35:47.480 mistake that they

00:35:48.140 made, and I

00:35:48.660 think it was a

00:35:49.020 mistake from day

00:35:49.580 one, is they

00:35:50.820 shouldn't have

00:35:51.360 been subsidizing

00:35:52.240 based on existing

00:35:53.240 scale.

00:35:54.180 They should have

00:35:54.680 been rewarding

00:35:55.340 based on the

00:35:56.020 ability to

00:35:56.500 attract an

00:35:57.020 audience.

00:35:57.780 So if you're a

00:35:59.060 new media company

00:35:59.920 like the Western

00:36:00.540 Standard, like

00:36:01.320 Canada's National

00:36:02.100 Observer, you

00:36:03.140 should have the

00:36:03.460 same access to

00:36:04.400 those subsidies as

00:36:05.540 Post Media, as

00:36:06.460 Tor Star, as

00:36:07.300 the Globe and

00:36:07.740 Mail.

00:36:08.120 The fact that

00:36:08.800 they exist should

00:36:10.140 not give them an

00:36:11.220 advantage over

00:36:11.980 someone who wants

00:36:12.620 to start a new

00:36:13.260 business.

00:36:14.880 And at the end

00:36:15.500 of the day, let

00:36:15.880 the market speak.

00:36:17.600 If you can

00:36:18.440 attract 500,000

00:36:20.380 eyeballs, you

00:36:21.640 should get the

00:36:22.140 support.

00:36:23.640 What the

00:36:24.160 government needs

00:36:24.540 to do...

00:36:24.820 But then we're

00:36:25.020 just kind of

00:36:25.340 incentivizing

00:36:25.880 clickbait.

00:36:26.960 The damned if

00:36:27.980 you do, damned

00:36:28.380 if you don't, is

00:36:29.080 no one's reading

00:36:29.900 you, and you're

00:36:30.440 clearly not

00:36:30.980 economically viable.

00:36:32.100 But, I mean, we

00:36:33.760 always have to

00:36:34.360 guard against

00:36:34.860 being overly

00:36:35.480 clickbaity.

00:36:36.680 Because, fine, we

00:36:38.500 become economically

00:36:39.460 viable, but then

00:36:40.560 we just become

00:36:41.200 trash.

00:36:43.000 And you can't

00:36:44.320 be pure, you

00:36:45.580 know, purely

00:36:46.100 high-minded, you

00:36:47.620 know, highbrow

00:36:48.640 stuff, and you

00:36:49.180 can't be pure

00:36:49.840 clickbait.

00:36:50.340 We always have to

00:36:50.920 be somewhere in

00:36:51.740 the middle, but

00:36:52.320 I don't think, I

00:36:55.360 don't know if there

00:36:56.140 really is a way to

00:36:56.880 fairly do it, where

00:36:58.120 we're not, no

00:36:59.560 matter what

00:36:59.940 intervention we make,

00:37:00.700 we're going to

00:37:00.940 be creating

00:37:01.360 disincentives, I

00:37:02.680 think, to a

00:37:03.040 natural evolution

00:37:04.960 of the market, no

00:37:06.040 matter which way

00:37:06.480 we go.

00:37:07.060 A hundred

00:37:07.340 percent, but if

00:37:08.000 we don't make

00:37:09.640 these interventions,

00:37:10.420 I think we risk

00:37:11.200 market failure, and

00:37:12.620 I'm not a big fan of

00:37:13.900 market failure.

00:37:14.520 I think markets, when

00:37:15.700 they collapse, can

00:37:16.620 do a lot of damage

00:37:17.460 to the people who

00:37:18.260 are sort of

00:37:19.460 depending on them.

00:37:20.620 You know, I think

00:37:20.960 back to the banking

00:37:21.580 crisis in the

00:37:22.220 United States.

00:37:23.180 People said, well,

00:37:23.740 we should just let

00:37:24.180 the banks fail.

00:37:25.380 A lot of people's

00:37:26.040 lives on the line

00:37:26.720 there that would

00:37:27.160 have been negatively

00:37:27.720 impacted.

00:37:28.680 Fair, but that was

00:37:29.500 kind of a chain

00:37:29.980 reaction to

00:37:30.480 through a system,

00:37:31.300 whereas I think

00:37:32.820 with this, you

00:37:33.580 know, you were

00:37:33.960 talking about

00:37:34.680 slowing the

00:37:35.400 decline until the

00:37:36.460 alternative emerges.

00:37:38.300 But don't you

00:37:39.580 think that by

00:37:40.560 propping up the

00:37:41.420 legacy players, we're

00:37:42.780 retarding the

00:37:43.440 growth of the

00:37:44.360 emerging alternative

00:37:45.360 players to fill it?

00:37:46.640 Because, you know, I

00:37:47.720 have to compete with

00:37:48.880 the Global Mail, the

00:37:49.940 CBC, Post Media, in

00:37:51.660 salaries for

00:37:52.380 reporters, and they've

00:37:53.980 got a 33%

00:37:54.860 advantage from

00:37:55.560 government subsidies.

00:37:56.440 companies, we don't

00:37:58.220 take it right now, but

00:37:58.920 some days I think, you

00:37:59.940 know, to be

00:38:00.280 competitive, we're

00:38:01.380 eligible to receive

00:38:02.160 it, we don't, but

00:38:03.940 eventually I might have

00:38:04.740 to climb off my

00:38:05.360 high horse here just

00:38:06.620 to compete.

00:38:07.640 And so it seems to

00:38:09.300 be kind of retarding

00:38:10.620 the growth of the

00:38:11.920 alternative media to

00:38:12.960 fill it, because I

00:38:14.080 don't think it's the

00:38:14.580 same as the collapse

00:38:15.340 of, you know, Goldman

00:38:17.700 Sachs, where they go

00:38:18.520 down, everyone else

00:38:19.220 goes down.

00:38:19.800 I think if, you know,

00:38:20.620 if, say, Post Media

00:38:21.540 collapsed, I don't

00:38:23.180 think that really

00:38:23.960 affects, it'll affect

00:38:25.440 news coverage, but

00:38:26.440 doesn't adversely

00:38:28.100 affect others in

00:38:29.100 the media.

00:38:29.460 It's not like there's

00:38:29.860 a supply chain and

00:38:30.940 we're all leveraged

00:38:32.000 on each other, I

00:38:32.720 think.

00:38:33.060 No, that's fair.

00:38:33.520 Someone else comes

00:38:34.260 in, you know.

00:38:36.020 There's no contagion

00:38:37.020 effect in the media.

00:38:38.060 Exactly, there's no

00:38:38.380 contagion.

00:38:39.020 In fact, it probably

00:38:39.860 just allows it to

00:38:41.240 reset.

00:38:41.800 It's the concept of

00:38:43.220 creative destruction

00:38:44.040 and capitalism.

00:38:45.500 Well, I think you're

00:38:46.400 right.

00:38:46.660 I think part of it is

00:38:47.440 that systems are good

00:38:49.160 at supporting the

00:38:50.220 status quo.

00:38:51.060 And so folks like

00:38:52.580 you, folks like us,

00:38:53.480 you know, it's

00:38:53.840 interesting, Premier

00:38:55.000 Smith mentioned both

00:38:56.160 of us in the same

00:38:56.840 breath in a press

00:38:57.720 conference a few

00:38:58.300 months ago when she

00:38:59.000 was talking about

00:38:59.600 new media.

00:39:00.660 So, you know, we

00:39:01.460 are sort of in the

00:39:02.600 same pond, even if

00:39:04.180 we're fishing at other

00:39:04.860 ends.

00:39:05.320 But, you know, when

00:39:07.620 a system is being

00:39:09.180 transformed, the

00:39:10.540 existing incumbent

00:39:11.500 players are going to

00:39:12.180 have a better shot at

00:39:13.580 kind of getting the

00:39:14.720 ear of policymakers than

00:39:15.800 we will because they

00:39:17.240 have the jobs right

00:39:18.400 now, they have the

00:39:18.940 influence right now.

00:39:19.700 We're trying to build

00:39:20.380 that influence.

00:39:20.980 And so I think

00:39:22.640 there's always going

00:39:23.280 to be sort of an

00:39:23.780 overcorrection towards

00:39:25.100 protecting the status

00:39:26.380 quo.

00:39:26.600 And I think you're

00:39:27.000 right.

00:39:27.200 If Post Media

00:39:27.660 failed, things would

00:39:29.400 probably, flowers would

00:39:30.880 grow in the ashes

00:39:32.180 there pretty darn

00:39:33.460 fast.

00:39:35.280 You know, I think

00:39:35.960 this is all linked to

00:39:38.320 a conversation about

00:39:40.340 what we do with the

00:39:40.880 CBC.

00:39:41.420 And I know that's a

00:39:42.020 whole other can of

00:39:42.680 worms.

00:39:43.040 But I think, you

00:39:44.180 know, the CBC needs

00:39:45.880 to, and I've said this

00:39:46.820 many, many times, needs

00:39:47.780 to not be in the

00:39:48.440 business of taking

00:39:49.060 advertisements.

00:39:50.740 That is cannibalizing

00:39:52.040 stuff that could

00:39:53.640 very, that's, that's

00:39:54.660 advertising that very

00:39:55.680 clearly wants to go

00:39:56.380 into media.

00:39:56.960 It could go to you,

00:39:57.580 it could go to us.

00:39:59.080 It should not probably

00:40:00.220 be in the business of

00:40:01.060 producing opinion.

00:40:03.000 I don't think that that

00:40:04.360 helps its image as a

00:40:06.020 neutral sort of serving

00:40:07.400 all Canadians vehicle.

00:40:08.520 I think it tends to

00:40:10.540 exacerbate concerns that

00:40:12.540 people have about bias,

00:40:13.620 about its coverage.

00:40:14.900 I would like to see the

00:40:16.020 CBC go back to sort of a

00:40:17.740 mandate where it focuses

00:40:18.740 on reporting, on doing

00:40:19.860 the reporting that maybe

00:40:22.000 isn't fundable by the,

00:40:23.180 by the market, right?

00:40:24.060 You know, investigative

00:40:25.040 journalism, documentaries,

00:40:26.640 things like that, and

00:40:28.320 kind of stay out of the,

00:40:29.380 the areas that are maybe

00:40:30.920 more profitable, but that

00:40:32.920 are cannibalizing profits

00:40:34.080 that could go to new

00:40:34.880 media upstarts.

00:40:36.340 That is probably the most

00:40:38.020 reasonable argument I've

00:40:39.300 heard for keeping the

00:40:41.060 CBC.

00:40:41.640 I'm, I'm still not there,

00:40:42.880 but you're speaking

00:40:44.840 language I can at least

00:40:45.680 hear and understand and

00:40:46.980 say, you know what,

00:40:47.720 I could probably live

00:40:49.320 with it.

00:40:49.660 I, you know, I, I have

00:40:51.380 my fantasies, of course,

00:40:52.280 about, you know, the

00:40:53.000 building closing and

00:40:53.740 whatnot, but it does have

00:40:56.360 a potential to do good.

00:40:57.360 And I, and I think that's,

00:40:58.660 that's probably the best

00:40:59.320 pitch I've heard for the

00:41:00.720 CBC.

00:41:01.020 And it's one that would

00:41:02.500 at least change its

00:41:03.560 perception to make it

00:41:04.380 more politically neutral.

00:41:05.700 I think less of a

00:41:06.360 football.

00:41:06.860 Yeah.

00:41:07.020 And part of that is also

00:41:08.600 addressing the issue of

00:41:10.300 bias.

00:41:10.620 And, and I don't think

00:41:12.360 that the CBC exists to

00:41:13.960 lift up liberals and punish

00:41:15.700 conservatives, but I do

00:41:16.800 think that it massively

00:41:18.980 overcorrects towards

00:41:20.100 downtown perspectives and

00:41:22.540 the perspectives of, you

00:41:23.580 know, the people who work

00:41:24.160 at the CBC and I love

00:41:25.140 them, God bless them.

00:41:26.060 They all tend to come from

00:41:27.520 the same parts of the

00:41:28.580 city.

00:41:29.540 And that's going to self

00:41:31.220 select for a certain

00:41:32.900 political view.

00:41:33.900 You know, journalists tend

00:41:34.680 to be a little more

00:41:35.300 progressive, more liberal,

00:41:36.900 more on the left side of

00:41:38.540 the spectrum, just because

00:41:39.520 of where they come from

00:41:40.500 and their background.

00:41:41.420 And they have to adjust

00:41:43.000 for that.

00:41:43.480 They have to adjust for,

00:41:44.820 you know, where their

00:41:47.420 employees come from versus

00:41:48.620 the audience that they're

00:41:49.540 serving.

00:41:49.880 And if they want the

00:41:50.520 audience to be all

00:41:51.180 Canadians, they got to

00:41:52.420 kind of put a little, a

00:41:53.360 little water in their

00:41:54.040 wine sometimes.

00:41:54.720 I think you're right on

00:41:55.240 that.

00:41:55.380 I think generally not along

00:41:58.140 a bit with Pierre

00:41:58.800 Polyev when he bashes the

00:41:59.900 CBC, but I think he's

00:42:00.820 wrong when he says it's

00:42:02.080 liberal party propaganda.

00:42:03.960 I don't think it's

00:42:04.880 propaganda for a party,

00:42:06.760 but I think it is

00:42:07.780 clearly small L liberal

00:42:09.860 or small SD social

00:42:12.280 democratic worldview or

00:42:14.240 ideology just because of

00:42:16.080 its self-selecting

00:42:17.000 criteria.

00:42:17.420 As you said, it's, you

00:42:18.860 know, it's the people who

00:42:20.120 work there are

00:42:20.920 overwhelmingly urban,

00:42:22.880 university educated.

00:42:24.020 They check off demographic

00:42:25.580 boxes that make you

00:42:27.980 extremely likely to vote

00:42:29.120 for and support parties on

00:42:30.780 the left.

00:42:31.320 And I, so I don't think

00:42:32.620 it consciously serves the

00:42:35.900 liberal party.

00:42:36.540 itself, but it tends to

00:42:37.940 support its worldview just

00:42:39.740 de facto.

00:42:40.340 And I think that's true of

00:42:41.500 most media in general.

00:42:43.020 I think probably

00:42:43.760 particularly acute at the

00:42:44.920 CBC.

00:42:45.280 It's just seen as a bigger

00:42:46.080 issue because it's publicly

00:42:47.860 funded.

00:42:48.560 And just before we depart

00:42:50.240 the CBC here, there's a

00:42:52.540 way to fix this.

00:42:53.500 And it's something that the

00:42:55.460 CBC is very familiar with.

00:42:56.860 It's their diversity

00:42:57.900 mandate.

00:42:58.480 So they have a, they have

00:42:59.220 a diversity mandate.

00:42:59.960 They need to represent

00:43:01.460 multiple backgrounds.

00:43:02.820 So are you saying they

00:43:03.400 need to hire like white

00:43:04.980 rednecks?

00:43:05.440 No, no, not rednecks,

00:43:06.200 not rednecks, but I think

00:43:07.900 I think that, you know,

00:43:08.840 that's super important what

00:43:10.140 they do in terms of making

00:43:11.000 sure that their coverage

00:43:12.260 reflects all Canadians, but

00:43:13.480 that also means rural

00:43:14.480 Canada.

00:43:15.420 And so they should have a

00:43:16.540 mandate where they have to

00:43:17.560 have a certain percentage of

00:43:18.520 reporters and editorial

00:43:19.920 staff who grew up in a

00:43:21.480 small town, right?

00:43:22.840 Or grew up in a place that

00:43:24.200 wasn't Toronto, Vancouver,

00:43:25.480 Montreal, Calgary.

00:43:26.420 And I think that alone, not

00:43:28.020 just on-air talent, but sort

00:43:29.540 of editorial talent would

00:43:31.460 shift the conversation in

00:43:33.000 story meetings.

00:43:33.600 It would shift the

00:43:34.180 conversation.

00:43:34.700 What do we cover in a way

00:43:36.400 that I think would be very,

00:43:37.360 very tangible.

00:43:38.840 But, you know, dare to dream.

00:43:43.640 Let's maybe look at a bit more

00:43:46.180 on the positive side here.

00:43:47.320 Can you name a couple of the

00:43:49.920 bright spots?

00:43:50.920 Our own two publications

00:43:52.040 aside, and our glorious

00:43:53.820 march to hegemony, what are

00:43:56.580 some of the bright spots or

00:43:57.840 trends you see in kind of the

00:43:59.380 independent media in filling

00:44:02.800 the vacuum and quickly

00:44:04.980 evolving marketplace?

00:44:07.160 I'm not sure there's a ton.

00:44:09.000 I think from an ownership

00:44:10.440 perspective, with all due

00:44:11.560 respect and apologies, it's

00:44:14.260 tough, right?

00:44:15.000 It's tough to make money in

00:44:15.800 this space.

00:44:17.240 I think from a young

00:44:18.260 journalist perspective, I

00:44:19.440 think from a perspective of

00:44:22.340 someone trying to break in to

00:44:23.720 the media, there are fewer

00:44:25.020 barriers than ever.

00:44:26.700 You know, it used to be that

00:44:27.480 you would have to sort of go

00:44:28.640 down this very specific path.

00:44:30.200 You'd have to go to

00:44:30.660 journalism school.

00:44:31.840 You'd have to work at one of

00:44:32.840 the big papers or the CBC.

00:44:34.660 You sort of pay your dues,

00:44:35.920 and eventually you sort of

00:44:37.640 make your way to the top.

00:44:38.540 And now, if you're coming,

00:44:40.400 you know, you don't have to go

00:44:41.480 to journalism school.

00:44:42.200 You can just go to

00:44:42.980 university.

00:44:43.520 You can finish high school,

00:44:44.700 whatever.

00:44:44.900 And create a brand for

00:44:47.900 yourself based on your

00:44:49.420 content.

00:44:49.980 And if your content sucks,

00:44:51.360 no one will watch it, right?

00:44:52.580 That's the way it works.

00:44:53.660 But if your content's good and

00:44:55.000 it connects with people, you

00:44:56.380 will find an audience.

00:44:57.360 Now, there are dark sides to

00:44:58.920 this because I think there's a

00:44:59.800 lot of people out there that

00:45:00.640 are kind of pandering to the

00:45:02.100 worst instincts of society and

00:45:05.220 of people out there.

00:45:06.360 But I think of a guy named

00:45:08.020 Quick Dick McDick who is out in

00:45:09.940 Saskatchewan, right?

00:45:11.040 We've had him on before.

00:45:12.320 Yeah.

00:45:12.520 I mean, like, he and I don't

00:45:14.200 agree on, I would say, most

00:45:16.280 things.

00:45:16.700 But he has a perspective.

00:45:18.740 He comes at it with humor,

00:45:20.120 with presentation value, with,

00:45:23.760 you know, with all the right

00:45:25.140 things.

00:45:25.720 And he's found an audience.

00:45:27.000 And that is purely based on

00:45:28.360 merit.

00:45:28.940 The CBC didn't do it for him.

00:45:30.340 The Globe and Mail didn't do it

00:45:31.320 for him.

00:45:32.140 School didn't do it for him.

00:45:33.280 He did it for himself.

00:45:34.600 And now he's using that to

00:45:36.160 sort of, you know, bring farm

00:45:37.620 education into schools.

00:45:38.720 And he's doing these cool

00:45:39.420 videos that show kids, like,

00:45:40.580 here's how, you know, a

00:45:41.600 combine works.

00:45:42.300 Like, that's great.

00:45:43.600 And you can do that on the

00:45:45.080 left, too, right?

00:45:45.960 You can make your own brand

00:45:48.600 for yourself.

00:45:49.060 I think of someone, she gets

00:45:50.500 terrible mistreatment on the

00:45:52.460 internet, but someone like

00:45:53.140 Rachel Gilmore.

00:45:54.060 She did work at Global, yes.

00:45:56.420 But she created a brand for

00:45:58.320 herself through her work, right?

00:46:00.220 Through her entrepreneurship.

00:46:01.460 And I think if you're a

00:46:02.980 media entrepreneur, this is

00:46:05.540 the best time to be alive,

00:46:06.720 probably in a very, very long

00:46:08.640 time.

00:46:09.100 Not as an owner, not as a

00:46:10.520 sort of corporate owner, but

00:46:12.000 as a entrepreneur of your

00:46:13.360 brand, you know, the sky's the

00:46:16.320 limit.

00:46:16.880 So that parlays nice into what

00:46:19.220 I think is my last question

00:46:20.660 here, kind of blue sky

00:46:22.260 question.

00:46:23.440 What do you think the Canadian

00:46:25.760 media landscape is going to

00:46:27.360 look like in 10 years?

00:46:29.680 And there's a few ways you can

00:46:32.980 choose to attack that.

00:46:34.460 Yeah.

00:46:34.940 I think post media will not

00:46:36.680 exist.

00:46:38.180 I agree.

00:46:38.920 I think we will have online

00:46:43.020 versions of city papers.

00:46:45.820 I don't think people are going to

00:46:47.120 be printing newspapers 10 years

00:46:48.340 from now.

00:46:48.660 I think a lot of that is legacy

00:46:50.460 print products and legacy print

00:46:52.440 contracts that are going to roll

00:46:54.740 off.

00:46:55.000 I'm reminded when I used to

00:46:56.000 work for Vancouver Magazine and

00:46:57.800 we were owned by Yellow Pages.

00:46:59.760 And I remember people asking

00:47:01.420 like, sorry, you're owned by

00:47:02.600 Yellow Pages?

00:47:03.160 That still exists?

00:47:04.040 And it was because advertisers

00:47:05.920 had signed these like 10-year

00:47:07.020 contracts and they were just

00:47:08.160 basically milking them until they

00:47:09.420 rolled off.

00:47:10.380 Once they rolled off, that was the

00:47:11.840 end of that.

00:47:12.320 So I think you're going to see

00:47:14.280 more diversity of online urban

00:47:17.320 publications.

00:47:18.480 I think the CBC will still be

00:47:19.860 here.

00:47:20.200 Sorry, folks.

00:47:21.820 Hopefully it will have responded

00:47:24.140 to the, you know, the changing

00:47:26.060 landscape.

00:47:26.680 It will have tightened its

00:47:27.420 mandate up a little bit and

00:47:28.620 become a little more focused on

00:47:30.180 what it does well and not trying

00:47:31.700 to do everything for all people.

00:47:33.500 I think the Globe and Mail will

00:47:34.720 still be here.

00:47:36.640 But I think in terms of

00:47:37.580 technology, we have no idea.

00:47:39.200 I mean, 10 years ago, could you

00:47:41.100 really have predicted the

00:47:42.100 influence that Twitter has?

00:47:43.440 It was a sort of niche back then

00:47:45.300 and now it's everything.

00:47:47.040 TikTok didn't exist.

00:47:49.040 I think video is going to be an

00:47:50.300 even bigger part of the equation

00:47:51.800 than it is today.

00:47:52.380 AI might replace the little

00:47:54.460 newsrooms that are left.

00:47:55.980 It might just be AI and a couple

00:47:57.280 of editors.

00:47:58.160 Well, and, you know, the days of

00:47:59.880 there being jobs for journalists

00:48:01.820 and covering quarterly reports

00:48:03.400 and, you know, session info

00:48:06.040 calls with companies and doing

00:48:08.680 the weather even, that's not

00:48:10.400 necessary.

00:48:10.960 AI will take all that low-hanging

00:48:12.360 fruit.

00:48:13.340 But maybe you can build a

00:48:14.500 company, you being, you know,

00:48:15.940 16-year-old whoever out there,

00:48:17.460 on the back of AI and your own

00:48:20.000 take on things, right?

00:48:21.200 Like, AI is a destroyer.

00:48:23.120 It's also a creator.

00:48:24.780 And I think we don't really

00:48:26.600 know what that's going to look

00:48:27.460 like yet.

00:48:29.040 You know, it may destroy us all.

00:48:30.480 Fingers crossed it doesn't.

00:48:31.420 But I do think whenever we look

00:48:33.240 at technology, we tend to think

00:48:35.340 of the things that will break

00:48:36.280 and not the things that it will

00:48:37.920 make.

00:48:38.600 And I think there's a lot of

00:48:39.540 making that could happen over

00:48:41.000 the next little while.

00:48:41.740 I hope it remains fact-based.

00:48:44.160 I hope it doesn't play to our

00:48:45.560 worst instincts.

00:48:46.320 But I have to be optimistic.

00:48:50.000 It's just part of the way I'm

00:48:51.640 wired.

00:48:53.380 I think we see it strangely and

00:48:55.780 remarkably similar.

00:48:57.580 Well, Max, thank you very much

00:48:59.400 for joining us today and sharing

00:49:01.880 your perspective with us.

00:49:02.760 Well, I can't believe I'm saying

00:49:04.100 this, but it's a pleasure as

00:49:05.040 always.

00:49:06.720 Weird.

00:49:07.500 We might actually have to do it

00:49:09.220 again.

00:49:10.180 Yep.

00:49:10.520 Thank you very much.

00:49:11.380 All right.

00:49:11.700 Thank you all very much for

00:49:12.740 joining us today.

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Western Standard - June 06, 2023

Au contraire： Future of the AB NDP & Big Media

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