Western Standard - Author Philip Slayton and his book, Antisemitism

00:00:00.480 Hello, Mr. Slayton. Thank you very much for joining us today. We really appreciate it.

00:00:04.900 It's a pleasure, Corey. How are you?

00:00:06.480 Very good. Thanks. So I did read your fine book, cover to cover there. I appreciate it being sent

00:00:13.160 out. It's on a subject, of course, that's as I said, kind of at the start of the show is

00:00:19.620 it's existed since the first Jews came about, but you've kind of taken a bit of a different

00:00:25.940 approach, at least with addressing anti-Semitism and in more of the modern context.

00:00:30.000 Yes, I have. I've tried to place anti-Semitism, which, of course, as you know, has been around

00:00:35.560 for a long time. I've tried to place it in the context of modern identity politics, modern

00:00:41.400 social media, the rise of populism, other things that are happening in the world today and see

00:00:46.840 how all those things fit together.

00:00:49.760 Yeah. And, you know, you kind of begin almost, I guess, in a controversial sense into the almost

00:00:56.360 that, to some degree, the anti-Semitism has been woven into the Jewish identity, and it's

00:01:01.200 actually one of the things that's helped keep Jews united when they're spread all over the

00:01:04.540 place, even if it's such an odious concept.

00:01:08.020 Well, I think that's true. I mean, a number of people, including, for example, Jean-Paul Sartre,

00:01:12.400 have said that it's really anti-Semitism more than anything else that keeps Jews together.

00:01:16.740 And if you look at Jews through the world, they're a very disparate community in many respects.

00:01:21.740 They have a variety of different views. Some are religious, but most are not.

00:01:27.540 Some support Israel, but some do not. And within Israel, as we've seen recently, there's all

00:01:33.060 kinds of groups from different backgrounds, with different beliefs, with different degrees

00:01:37.720 of religion that spend a lot of time fighting each other. So when you look at these very disparate

00:01:42.020 communities within Israel, around the world, you say, well, what gives it identity?

00:01:46.680 And one of the views is, I think it's an important view, is that it's anti-Semitism. 0.99

00:01:52.280 The fact that for some strange reason, a lot of other people don't like the Jews and Jewish

00:01:57.340 community, that's what drives the Jewish community together.

00:02:01.540 Yeah, and something I noticed, Lee, you know, year after year, we're hearing when it comes to

00:02:07.080 reported incidents of racism, for example, anti-Semitism tends to top the list. But I mean, aside from very

00:02:13.980 high profile, things like the horrific, you know, shootings in Pittsburgh and things such

00:02:17.800 as that, is it a matter, though, of a lot more things are being reported? Because we're not

00:02:22.320 really, I don't really see it on the ground as much. I mean, people are reporting microaggressions

00:02:27.040 or relatively minor incidents?

00:02:29.260 Well, I mean, I think there is, of course, expressions of anti-Semitism quite often in

00:02:34.660 different places around the world, including within our own country. But my view is that some

00:02:39.920 of them are relatively small consequence, and not to be given huge weight. They don't mean

00:02:47.480 that, you know, another Holocaust is around the corner. And one criticism I would make 0.96

00:02:51.920 of some members of the Jewish community is they tend to overblow and exaggerate these

00:02:56.580 incidents in a way that's not healthy, and doesn't help the Jewish community or any

00:03:01.680 community. Now, I understand why people do this. I mean, we still live under the shadow

00:03:06.740 of the Holocaust. There are still a lot of people who are very nervous about how Jews

00:03:11.340 have been treated and could be treated in the future. But I do think a more discerning

00:03:16.960 way of considering expressions of anti-Semitism is a good thing. And I think the response to 1.00

00:03:23.420 expressions of anti-Semitism needs to be proportional. You know, not everything is a deep, dark, terrible

00:03:29.280 tragedy that foretells doom and gloom. Some things are not. So to answer your point, I think

00:03:36.300 anti-Semitism continues, but actually the degree of it and the importance of it and the significance

00:03:42.180 of it can be exaggerated.

00:03:44.400 Well, yeah, I mean, we see issues again. I mean, it can spawn more vitriolic or dangerous

00:03:50.820 things. But I mean, I, you know, weigh in on the sewage of Twitter quite often. And I'll

00:03:56.280 have some clown come on, you know, who's going to talk about how the Jews brought down the 0.98

00:04:00.160 World Trade Center. And well, I just block them and move on. I mean, this is just a nutcase 0.99

00:04:05.260 with a keyboard. So I mean, it's still odious and offensive, but it isn't necessarily going

00:04:09.920 to turn into something major. But I mean, how do you distinguish between what's just the

00:04:13.980 lone crazy out there or what's part of a larger thing that could lead to a bigger problem?

00:04:18.320 Well, I mean, I think you have to be discerning and careful when you look at and when you evaluate

00:04:23.260 examples of anti-Semitism. And in my book, for example, I discuss what I describe as four

00:04:28.840 different kinds of anti-Semitism, ranging from incivility, stupidity on the internet, 0.99

00:04:36.060 the kind of thing you just described, which is unpleasant. I mean, no one's saying it's 0.99

00:04:40.820 okay to do that. It's not okay to do that. It's unpleasant. And of course, it can lead

00:04:45.300 to other things. But nonetheless, let's see it for what it is, which is often very inconsequential

00:04:51.960 acts of incivility perpetrated by silly, stupid, ignorant people. So that's one kind. But then 1.00

00:04:58.920 of course, there's other kinds as well. And you can go through to the ultimate most dangerous

00:05:04.500 kind, which is when anti-Semitism of some kind or other is incorporated in government

00:05:10.200 policy, in legislation, in statutes. And that's a whole different kettle of fish. There's a range

00:05:15.860 of things. And I think you have to accept that it's a range, look at what's happened, be discerning,

00:05:23.060 be proportionate in your response, and not treat everything, Corey, as if it's the end

00:05:27.560 of the world.

00:05:28.560 Yeah. So the most, I guess, divisive problem or area we have going on right now is views

00:05:36.620 on Israel, Zionism, whether or not the state is sustainable as it is. I mean, that's dividing

00:05:42.140 even the Jewish community. You go a lot into detail on that one. But it seems to be one of

00:05:48.320 those ones that feels almost insurmountable as well. I mean, you brought up Kashmir, you

00:05:54.020 know, up in northern Pakistan, which probably my children will be watching disputes going

00:05:58.220 on up there as well. But it is our modern, our largest issue right now.

00:06:03.380 Well, it's a hugely important issue. And it's one, as you know, it's been getting worse in recent

00:06:10.340 times. And it's an issue that divides the Jewish community very severely, and not just

00:06:15.300 the Jewish community. But one thing I feel very strongly about is that to criticize what 0.92

00:06:21.740 some Israeli policy, for example, to criticize the extensive settlement of the West Bank by

00:06:27.820 Israel is not to be anti-Semitic. There's a tendency, particularly among some parts of the

00:06:33.580 Jewish community, to conflate anti-Zionism, opposition to certain policies of the Israeli government,

00:06:40.340 particularly, let's say the West Bank, with anti-Semitism. I reject that. It's perfectly 1.00

00:06:45.300 acceptable to criticize government policy and government actions. And that does not equate

00:06:50.640 with being anti-Semitic, although many people do make that equation.

00:06:54.740 Well, I mean, there's political merit, you know, as a guy who talks about a lot of political

00:06:59.680 things, if you want to try and shut down a conversation, that's a good way just to say,

00:07:03.180 well, we don't want to go there, because that would be anti-Semitic if you dare criticize

00:07:06.240 that. But I mean, every government should be able to be critiqued. But do you think perhaps

00:07:13.520 traditional then Jewish support for Zionism might be fading? I mean, you talk a lot about

00:07:20.000 that, the different types of Jews, I mean, whether they're secular, whether they're religious,

00:07:24.200 a large part of what the sticking point is, is of course, the Temple Mount. I mean, the Second

00:07:28.260 Coming isn't going to happen unless the Jews are there at that time, at least as far as the 1.00

00:07:33.240 scriptures are concerned. So I would imagine observant Jews are going to be very unwilling 0.99

00:07:38.940 to give up on that. But at the same time, when you're getting a larger move towards secularism,

00:07:43.140 perhaps that supports crumbling.

00:07:45.720 Well, I mean, let's look at two communities. Let's look at first Jews in Israel. And even 0.90

00:07:50.720 within Israel, as we've seen recently, there's tremendous division about the acceptability of

00:07:57.060 various government policies, including settlement of the West Bank. Not all Jews in Israel favor,

00:08:02.660 extending or even maintaining existing West Bank settlements. But if you go to the United

00:08:07.240 States, where almost half the world's Jews live, within the United States, I think there's

00:08:13.480 growing opposition, particularly among young Jews, to much of what Israel has done and is

00:08:20.120 doing. Young Jews tend to be more secular. They tend to be on the whole left of center.

00:08:26.360 They tend to be supporters, for example, of movements like Black Lives Matter. And when they see

00:08:32.300 what they regard as human rights violations by Israel vis-a-vis the Palestinians, they don't like

00:08:37.880 it. And they ask themselves, well, can I really support as my family history, for example, is

00:08:43.580 traditionally supported? Can I really support a state that does this kind of thing? I wouldn't do

00:08:48.560 it within my own country, the United States. And I don't want to do it vis-a-vis Israel. So I think 1.00

00:08:53.320 there's a real prospect of much of the support of the U.S. Jewish community for Israel, which has been

00:08:59.760 extremely important to Israel over a long period of time, very important, fading. And that's a

00:09:04.720 dangerous thing for the state of Israel.

00:09:07.540 So, I mean, you talked about a lot of interesting things, like the potential of going back. People

00:09:13.620 mention that often, like Morocco, there was a large Jewish population that was getting along quite well

00:09:18.780 with a dominant Muslim culture and leadership. So I mean, it is possible historically. And you're saying

00:09:25.480 that even, you know, some of the older Moroccans are, you know, wistfully looking back on the days of 1.00

00:09:31.120 when they had a, you know, the Jewish brethren there. But are the younger Muslim kids, as you

00:09:37.540 state a lot, most of them have never even met a Jew. And they're basing their opinions on social media

00:09:42.660 or portrayals. And that's not helping either.

00:09:45.400 Stephen Winick- Yeah, that's true. I mean, it was a very important and large Jewish population in Morocco,

00:09:50.080 which essentially left Morocco at the end of the 1940s, after the creation of the State of Israel,

00:09:55.180 and went to Israel. Where, by the way, they weren't very well treated for quite some time.

00:09:59.380 They were Sephardi Jews. And the Ashkenazi Jews from Eastern Europe looked down upon them and regarded

00:10:05.380 them as, on the whole, inferior people. So that's a whole other story. But meanwhile, the Moroccans, 1.00

00:10:10.960 the State of Morocco in particular, has been, I think, quite wistful about the departure of the Jews,

00:10:17.800 particularly older Moroccans. And the Moroccan government, the king of Morocco, has been very

00:10:23.440 favorable to Israel and very favorable to the Jewish tradition that remains in Morocco. So it's a 0.73

00:10:30.640 complicated picture, Corey. And what I might add, for example, is it tends to be a reaction sometimes

00:10:36.460 that Arabs and Jews are natural-born enemies at each other's throats, given half the chance. This 0.95

00:10:43.300 is not the case. There are many similarities between the two religions. And historically, often,

00:10:48.640 the Muslims have sheltered Jews who had to flee other parts of the world. So it's a complicated history.

00:10:54.820 And a lot of the sort of shibboleths that are put around are simply not true. They're just that, shibboleths,

00:11:01.460 it's not true. Well, yeah, as you said, though, and part of the historic problem is the fluidity,

00:11:06.420 though, of acceptance of Jews among populations, you know, decade by decade or generation by

00:11:11.080 generation. Let's say, for example, you know, Morocco has been sounding very friendly and a

00:11:15.900 Jewish population moved back. But we don't know if another three election cycles or a revolution

00:11:21.200 comes along and suddenly you're getting chased back. Like, you can see where the value of Israel 1.00

00:11:25.280 as one sanctuary could hold a lot of appeal to Jews. Well, that is the fundamental idea, of course.

00:11:30.740 By the way, I don't think any Moroccan Jews, or very few who are going to leave or in Israel

00:11:34.760 now, are going to leave and go back. That's very unlikely.

00:11:36.980 Stephen Winick- Yeah.

00:11:37.980 Stephen Winick- But yes, I mean, the fundamental idea of Israel, of course,

00:11:40.100 was giving a people who had been chased around the world and persecuted around the world

00:11:45.560 for a long time a place of refuge. That is the compelling idea. It's an extremely attractive

00:11:51.680 idea. And, of course, it was given a huge moral force following World War II and the Holocaust. 0.53

00:11:58.080 It was a hugely moral debt that the world seemed to think or thought had to be paid by supporting

00:12:05.640 the creation of the state of Israel. Very compelling and attractive idea. But the reality on the ground

00:12:10.260 now, after such a long period of time, is somewhat different. It's more complicated. It's more nuanced.

00:12:17.160 Stephen Winick- And the morals, the rights and wrongs are not as obvious as they once were.

00:12:21.160 Stephen Winick- Well, and something of an irony you point out in the book is Israel was actually

00:12:25.560 kind of provided a place that helped with anti-Semitic governments around the world because they would,

00:12:30.280 well, we can chase these guys out of here. They got somewhere to go. Let's somewhere to put these

00:12:34.440 Jews and get them out of our own hair. That's not for the next necessarily best of intentions, 1.00

00:12:39.560 but a lot of nations were supporting the ongoing state of Israel.

00:12:42.840 Stephen Winick- Yes, I think that's true. That's a historical fact.

00:12:46.200 Stephen Winick- Which is unfortunate. So, I mean, getting,

00:12:49.960 as you said, it's nuanced, it's complicated. I mean, you talk a bit about it, you know,

00:12:53.400 the different types of states or possible visions for Israel. Like,

00:12:57.240 a solution-based approach is really difficult on this still, though. I mean,

00:13:00.440 what could you envision that might fix this?

00:13:02.600 Stephen Winick- Well, it is very difficult. And of course, a lot of people

00:13:06.360 of goodwill have tried for a long time to figure out some way whereby the problem of the Middle East,

00:13:11.640 the problem of Israel, Palestine, the West Bank, all of that could be fixed. I mean,

00:13:16.280 most recently, for quite some time now, was the so-called two-state solution,

00:13:21.080 whereby there'd be a Palestinian state, a proper standalone, autonomous state with its own sovereignty,

00:13:27.320 and of course, Israel. That's being tried. Various people have endorsed it. It hasn't really gone

00:13:33.560 anywhere. And I think the general view is it's been quite subverted now by the settlements,

00:13:38.360 Jewish settlements from the West Bank. An idea that I think has some merit, I call the Canadian 0.92

00:13:44.280 solution, although it's not original to me, is the idea of a federation. Two states, yes,

00:13:51.000 but a federation over the top of them, guaranteeing as between the two states, the Arab state and the

00:13:55.800 Israeli state, freedom of movement, certain economic freedoms, human rights, and so on. And within that

00:14:03.080 federation, each individual state would have huge autonomy and power, much the same as we have in

00:14:08.120 this country. You know, you as an Albertan might push back a bit against that, I'm not sure, but you

00:14:13.480 know what I'm talking about. Now, that would be enormously difficult to construct. It would require

00:14:19.240 a lot of goodwill, a lot of heavy lifting, a lot of careful thought, but it's not impossible, I don't

00:14:25.080 think. And what I do think is that the situation in the Middle East, the situation on the West Bank,

00:14:30.680 Palestine, Gaza, and so on, is going from bad to worse. We see that. It's untenable, it's extremely

00:14:37.400 dangerous, and only misery and destruction can result from it. And so the world has to try and

00:14:43.400 do what it can to figure out some way to fix this or ameliorate it.

00:14:47.640 Yeah, and it is radiating outwards. I mean, fairly or unfairly, we've got incentivized people protesting

00:14:55.080 against Israel, say, in North American universities. And unfortunately, sometimes that is translating

00:15:00.040 to abuse upon Jewish students who had nothing to do with it. We see those incidents or hear of them

00:15:04.920 occasionally. I mean, there's tensions that spread outside of Israel and into other areas that really

00:15:10.440 shouldn't be impacted so directly by it. Yes, I think that's true. And there is a kind

00:15:15.400 of a tainting effect that goes on. I mean, one crisis tends to lead to other crises. So I think the world

00:15:21.080 need, I mean, the world now is so distracted by what's happening in Ukraine, by what's happening

00:15:26.520 in China, Russia, and all of that, that attention that sometimes was focused on the Middle East

00:15:31.640 seems to have shifted. But the Middle East remains a real danger point, a real flash point, and also a 0.95

00:15:36.840 place where, in my judgment, this is controversial. Many people strongly disagree with me. But nonetheless,

00:15:43.880 a place where you do see serious infringements of human rights, particularly the human rights of the

00:15:49.560 Palestinians. And that needs to be dealt with in some way or other. But it'll be hard, Corey. It'll 1.00

00:15:55.560 be hard. Well, and we'd have to be careful. I mean, Israel is a nuclear power. And if things really

00:16:01.720 broke out into a very large scale, I mean, I think everybody's armed enough, again, that it wouldn't

00:16:08.440 be a six-day war this time, unless something terrible happened. And we could really see things

00:16:12.920 get a heck of a lot worse over there. Yeah, I mean, the big fear there, of course,

00:16:16.280 is a war between Israel and Iran, which is, from time to time, seems to be a possibility. But

00:16:22.280 I wouldn't make a prediction about that. Yeah, we just kind of hope for the best

00:16:28.360 on that front. So, I mean, you spoke a little broadly, too, just on a bigger issue altogether.

00:16:32.440 I mean, it's kind of a societal thing. It's something for those of us in the comfort of North

00:16:36.120 America and Europe is identity politics, though. I mean, some people, I guess it's a bit of a natural

00:16:41.480 tendency towards tribalism or our team and this and that. And people are embracing Jewish identity

00:16:47.800 just, I think, just to stand out because they want to say, well, I'm this or I'm that and I'm

00:16:52.120 oppressed or I'm not. And it's a trend. It's troubling outside of just the matter of Judaism.

00:16:59.480 I mean, identity politics is really sweeping the world. Everybody is seeking to very carefully

00:17:08.600 define their own particular identity, which is fine. I have no difficulty with that. And there

00:17:13.800 are good reasons for doing it in some cases. But what I regret, this is often done at the expense

00:17:20.040 of what makes us all the same, what binds us together. I mean, there are things that separate

00:17:25.000 us for sure. And that's fine. But there are also things that bind us together, common objectives

00:17:30.840 that we have, common problems we face no matter what our identity is. And what I regret is that

00:17:36.680 identity politics, as it grows and becomes more and more powerful as it is doing, it tends to obscure

00:17:42.840 and hide and devalue what makes us all the same, what binds us together and the common problems we have,

00:17:50.840 we need to solve together. I mean, climate change is an obvious example. Climate change

00:17:54.680 doesn't care what race you are, what color you are, or anything like that. It's a problem everybody

00:18:01.160 faces. And we shouldn't embrace ideas that make it more difficult for us to deal with issues like that.

00:18:07.560 I mean, I sometimes like to remind people of what Barack Obama said, I think it was in 2004,

00:18:12.920 in a speech to the Democratic National Convention, when he said, this is Barack Obama speaking,

00:18:19.240 there's no such thing, I'm paraphrasing, there's no such thing as white Americans, 0.60

00:18:24.040 there's no such thing as black Americans, there's no such thing as Latino Americans, 0.97

00:18:28.600 there are only Americans. Well, that was less than 20 years ago, but it now sounds almost medieval,

00:18:34.120 because people don't think like that, regrettably, they think of their particular identity,

00:18:39.480 and they repudiate any attempt by people who don't share that identity, to comment on it,

00:18:44.680 to relate to it, to say that they have some understanding and sympathy with it, they don't

00:18:49.640 want to know. It's lived experience, you haven't lived my experience, you can't understand me at

00:18:53.960 all. I reject that. Yes, well, what we need is at least, at the very least, more frank discussions

00:19:00.760 in tender areas. As you said, yes, a lot of what you've covered is controversial, and I imagine some

00:19:06.680 of the feedback you've gotten as a man of Jewish descent has been heeded, that's part of the fun of

00:19:11.320 being in the public sphere. But if we don't want to talk about it, we're certainly not going to find any

00:19:15.160 solutions. Well, that's right. I mean, above all else, Corey, we have to talk about it. And we have

00:19:19.640 to listen to what the other person has to say and not reject what they say, just because we don't

00:19:26.600 like them, we don't like where they've come from, we have to listen to what they have to say. And we

00:19:31.080 have to kind of reach where possible compromise. And if somebody is putting forward a bad argument,

00:19:36.760 the way to respond to that bad argument is not to shut that person down, not to de-platform them,

00:19:43.480 not to denigrate them, but to give them a good argument that replaces their bad argument.

00:19:49.400 And that's dialogue, that's how civilisation advances, that's how a liberal democratic

00:19:54.920 country like ours survives. Well, and there's a lot of fantastic stuff packed into that book

00:20:01.000 that you put together. So I really appreciate that. And you're coming on to talk to us about it.

00:20:05.320 Before I let you go, where can people find a copy should they want to get out and get theirs?

00:20:08.840 Well, they can find it at the usual places, Corey, they can find it at the local bookstore,

00:20:12.440 they can get it from Amazon, they get directly from the publisher Sutherland House. I hope,

00:20:17.720 hopefully, they can download it on their Kindle. Hopefully, it's not that difficult to get.

00:20:23.400 Excellent. Yeah, there's lots of ways to get the books now. You don't even have to leave the house

00:20:26.760 anymore. Well, thank you again. And hopefully, maybe we'll talk down the road and it'll be over

00:20:32.520 having seen a breakthrough and some great solutions on this.

00:20:35.640 Well, that would be wonderful, Corey. Thanks. I enjoyed this.

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Western Standard - March 23, 2023

Author Philip Slayton and his book, Antisemitism

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