Author Philip Slayton and his book, Antisemitism
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Summary
Corey Slayton joins the show to discuss his new book, How Jews brought down the World Trade Center, and the role of anti-Semitism within the Jewish community. Corey is a professor of history at the University of Toronto and a regular contributor to publications such as The Forward and The Forward Magazine.
Transcript
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Hello, Mr. Slayton. Thank you very much for joining us today. We really appreciate it.
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Very good. Thanks. So I did read your fine book, cover to cover there. I appreciate it being sent
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out. It's on a subject, of course, that's as I said, kind of at the start of the show is
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it's existed since the first Jews came about, but you've kind of taken a bit of a different
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approach, at least with addressing anti-Semitism and in more of the modern context.
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Yes, I have. I've tried to place anti-Semitism, which, of course, as you know, has been around
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for a long time. I've tried to place it in the context of modern identity politics, modern
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social media, the rise of populism, other things that are happening in the world today and see
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Yeah. And, you know, you kind of begin almost, I guess, in a controversial sense into the almost
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that, to some degree, the anti-Semitism has been woven into the Jewish identity, and it's
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actually one of the things that's helped keep Jews united when they're spread all over the
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Well, I think that's true. I mean, a number of people, including, for example, Jean-Paul Sartre,
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have said that it's really anti-Semitism more than anything else that keeps Jews together.
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And if you look at Jews through the world, they're a very disparate community in many respects.
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They have a variety of different views. Some are religious, but most are not.
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Some support Israel, but some do not. And within Israel, as we've seen recently, there's all
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kinds of groups from different backgrounds, with different beliefs, with different degrees
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of religion that spend a lot of time fighting each other. So when you look at these very disparate
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communities within Israel, around the world, you say, well, what gives it identity?
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And one of the views is, I think it's an important view, is that it's anti-Semitism.
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The fact that for some strange reason, a lot of other people don't like the Jews and Jewish
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community, that's what drives the Jewish community together.
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Yeah, and something I noticed, Lee, you know, year after year, we're hearing when it comes to
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reported incidents of racism, for example, anti-Semitism tends to top the list. But I mean, aside from very
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high profile, things like the horrific, you know, shootings in Pittsburgh and things such
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as that, is it a matter, though, of a lot more things are being reported? Because we're not
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really, I don't really see it on the ground as much. I mean, people are reporting microaggressions
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Well, I mean, I think there is, of course, expressions of anti-Semitism quite often in
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different places around the world, including within our own country. But my view is that some
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of them are relatively small consequence, and not to be given huge weight. They don't mean
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that, you know, another Holocaust is around the corner. And one criticism I would make
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of some members of the Jewish community is they tend to overblow and exaggerate these
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incidents in a way that's not healthy, and doesn't help the Jewish community or any
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community. Now, I understand why people do this. I mean, we still live under the shadow
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of the Holocaust. There are still a lot of people who are very nervous about how Jews
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have been treated and could be treated in the future. But I do think a more discerning
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way of considering expressions of anti-Semitism is a good thing. And I think the response to
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expressions of anti-Semitism needs to be proportional. You know, not everything is a deep, dark, terrible
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tragedy that foretells doom and gloom. Some things are not. So to answer your point, I think
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anti-Semitism continues, but actually the degree of it and the importance of it and the significance
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Well, yeah, I mean, we see issues again. I mean, it can spawn more vitriolic or dangerous
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things. But I mean, I, you know, weigh in on the sewage of Twitter quite often. And I'll
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have some clown come on, you know, who's going to talk about how the Jews brought down the
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World Trade Center. And well, I just block them and move on. I mean, this is just a nutcase
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with a keyboard. So I mean, it's still odious and offensive, but it isn't necessarily going
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to turn into something major. But I mean, how do you distinguish between what's just the
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lone crazy out there or what's part of a larger thing that could lead to a bigger problem?
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Well, I mean, I think you have to be discerning and careful when you look at and when you evaluate
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examples of anti-Semitism. And in my book, for example, I discuss what I describe as four
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different kinds of anti-Semitism, ranging from incivility, stupidity on the internet,
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the kind of thing you just described, which is unpleasant. I mean, no one's saying it's
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okay to do that. It's not okay to do that. It's unpleasant. And of course, it can lead
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to other things. But nonetheless, let's see it for what it is, which is often very inconsequential
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acts of incivility perpetrated by silly, stupid, ignorant people. So that's one kind. But then
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of course, there's other kinds as well. And you can go through to the ultimate most dangerous
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kind, which is when anti-Semitism of some kind or other is incorporated in government
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policy, in legislation, in statutes. And that's a whole different kettle of fish. There's a range
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of things. And I think you have to accept that it's a range, look at what's happened, be discerning,
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be proportionate in your response, and not treat everything, Corey, as if it's the end
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Yeah. So the most, I guess, divisive problem or area we have going on right now is views
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on Israel, Zionism, whether or not the state is sustainable as it is. I mean, that's dividing
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even the Jewish community. You go a lot into detail on that one. But it seems to be one of
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those ones that feels almost insurmountable as well. I mean, you brought up Kashmir, you
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know, up in northern Pakistan, which probably my children will be watching disputes going
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on up there as well. But it is our modern, our largest issue right now.
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Well, it's a hugely important issue. And it's one, as you know, it's been getting worse in recent
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times. And it's an issue that divides the Jewish community very severely, and not just
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the Jewish community. But one thing I feel very strongly about is that to criticize what
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some Israeli policy, for example, to criticize the extensive settlement of the West Bank by
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Israel is not to be anti-Semitic. There's a tendency, particularly among some parts of the
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Jewish community, to conflate anti-Zionism, opposition to certain policies of the Israeli government,
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particularly, let's say the West Bank, with anti-Semitism. I reject that. It's perfectly
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acceptable to criticize government policy and government actions. And that does not equate
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with being anti-Semitic, although many people do make that equation.
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Well, I mean, there's political merit, you know, as a guy who talks about a lot of political
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things, if you want to try and shut down a conversation, that's a good way just to say,
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well, we don't want to go there, because that would be anti-Semitic if you dare criticize
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that. But I mean, every government should be able to be critiqued. But do you think perhaps
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traditional then Jewish support for Zionism might be fading? I mean, you talk a lot about
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that, the different types of Jews, I mean, whether they're secular, whether they're religious,
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a large part of what the sticking point is, is of course, the Temple Mount. I mean, the Second
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Coming isn't going to happen unless the Jews are there at that time, at least as far as the
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scriptures are concerned. So I would imagine observant Jews are going to be very unwilling
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to give up on that. But at the same time, when you're getting a larger move towards secularism,
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Well, I mean, let's look at two communities. Let's look at first Jews in Israel. And even
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within Israel, as we've seen recently, there's tremendous division about the acceptability of
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various government policies, including settlement of the West Bank. Not all Jews in Israel favor,
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extending or even maintaining existing West Bank settlements. But if you go to the United
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States, where almost half the world's Jews live, within the United States, I think there's
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growing opposition, particularly among young Jews, to much of what Israel has done and is
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doing. Young Jews tend to be more secular. They tend to be on the whole left of center.
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They tend to be supporters, for example, of movements like Black Lives Matter. And when they see
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what they regard as human rights violations by Israel vis-a-vis the Palestinians, they don't like
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it. And they ask themselves, well, can I really support as my family history, for example, is
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traditionally supported? Can I really support a state that does this kind of thing? I wouldn't do
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it within my own country, the United States. And I don't want to do it vis-a-vis Israel. So I think
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there's a real prospect of much of the support of the U.S. Jewish community for Israel, which has been
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extremely important to Israel over a long period of time, very important, fading. And that's a
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So, I mean, you talked about a lot of interesting things, like the potential of going back. People
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mention that often, like Morocco, there was a large Jewish population that was getting along quite well
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with a dominant Muslim culture and leadership. So I mean, it is possible historically. And you're saying
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that even, you know, some of the older Moroccans are, you know, wistfully looking back on the days of
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when they had a, you know, the Jewish brethren there. But are the younger Muslim kids, as you
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state a lot, most of them have never even met a Jew. And they're basing their opinions on social media
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Stephen Winick- Yeah, that's true. I mean, it was a very important and large Jewish population in Morocco,
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which essentially left Morocco at the end of the 1940s, after the creation of the State of Israel,
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and went to Israel. Where, by the way, they weren't very well treated for quite some time.
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They were Sephardi Jews. And the Ashkenazi Jews from Eastern Europe looked down upon them and regarded
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them as, on the whole, inferior people. So that's a whole other story. But meanwhile, the Moroccans,
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the State of Morocco in particular, has been, I think, quite wistful about the departure of the Jews,
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particularly older Moroccans. And the Moroccan government, the king of Morocco, has been very
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favorable to Israel and very favorable to the Jewish tradition that remains in Morocco. So it's a
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complicated picture, Corey. And what I might add, for example, is it tends to be a reaction sometimes
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that Arabs and Jews are natural-born enemies at each other's throats, given half the chance. This
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is not the case. There are many similarities between the two religions. And historically, often,
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the Muslims have sheltered Jews who had to flee other parts of the world. So it's a complicated history.
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And a lot of the sort of shibboleths that are put around are simply not true. They're just that, shibboleths,
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it's not true. Well, yeah, as you said, though, and part of the historic problem is the fluidity,
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though, of acceptance of Jews among populations, you know, decade by decade or generation by
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generation. Let's say, for example, you know, Morocco has been sounding very friendly and a
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Jewish population moved back. But we don't know if another three election cycles or a revolution
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comes along and suddenly you're getting chased back. Like, you can see where the value of Israel
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as one sanctuary could hold a lot of appeal to Jews. Well, that is the fundamental idea, of course.
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By the way, I don't think any Moroccan Jews, or very few who are going to leave or in Israel
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now, are going to leave and go back. That's very unlikely.
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Stephen Winick- But yes, I mean, the fundamental idea of Israel, of course,
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was giving a people who had been chased around the world and persecuted around the world
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for a long time a place of refuge. That is the compelling idea. It's an extremely attractive
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idea. And, of course, it was given a huge moral force following World War II and the Holocaust.
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It was a hugely moral debt that the world seemed to think or thought had to be paid by supporting
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the creation of the state of Israel. Very compelling and attractive idea. But the reality on the ground
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now, after such a long period of time, is somewhat different. It's more complicated. It's more nuanced.
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Stephen Winick- And the morals, the rights and wrongs are not as obvious as they once were.
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Stephen Winick- Well, and something of an irony you point out in the book is Israel was actually
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kind of provided a place that helped with anti-Semitic governments around the world because they would,
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well, we can chase these guys out of here. They got somewhere to go. Let's somewhere to put these
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Jews and get them out of our own hair. That's not for the next necessarily best of intentions,
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but a lot of nations were supporting the ongoing state of Israel.
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Stephen Winick- Yes, I think that's true. That's a historical fact.
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Stephen Winick- Which is unfortunate. So, I mean, getting,
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as you said, it's nuanced, it's complicated. I mean, you talk a bit about it, you know,
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the different types of states or possible visions for Israel. Like,
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a solution-based approach is really difficult on this still, though. I mean,
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Stephen Winick- Well, it is very difficult. And of course, a lot of people
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of goodwill have tried for a long time to figure out some way whereby the problem of the Middle East,
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the problem of Israel, Palestine, the West Bank, all of that could be fixed. I mean,
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most recently, for quite some time now, was the so-called two-state solution,
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whereby there'd be a Palestinian state, a proper standalone, autonomous state with its own sovereignty,
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and of course, Israel. That's being tried. Various people have endorsed it. It hasn't really gone
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anywhere. And I think the general view is it's been quite subverted now by the settlements,
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Jewish settlements from the West Bank. An idea that I think has some merit, I call the Canadian
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solution, although it's not original to me, is the idea of a federation. Two states, yes,
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but a federation over the top of them, guaranteeing as between the two states, the Arab state and the
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Israeli state, freedom of movement, certain economic freedoms, human rights, and so on. And within that
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federation, each individual state would have huge autonomy and power, much the same as we have in
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this country. You know, you as an Albertan might push back a bit against that, I'm not sure, but you
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know what I'm talking about. Now, that would be enormously difficult to construct. It would require
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a lot of goodwill, a lot of heavy lifting, a lot of careful thought, but it's not impossible, I don't
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think. And what I do think is that the situation in the Middle East, the situation on the West Bank,
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Palestine, Gaza, and so on, is going from bad to worse. We see that. It's untenable, it's extremely
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dangerous, and only misery and destruction can result from it. And so the world has to try and
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do what it can to figure out some way to fix this or ameliorate it.
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Yeah, and it is radiating outwards. I mean, fairly or unfairly, we've got incentivized people protesting
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against Israel, say, in North American universities. And unfortunately, sometimes that is translating
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to abuse upon Jewish students who had nothing to do with it. We see those incidents or hear of them
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occasionally. I mean, there's tensions that spread outside of Israel and into other areas that really
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shouldn't be impacted so directly by it. Yes, I think that's true. And there is a kind
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of a tainting effect that goes on. I mean, one crisis tends to lead to other crises. So I think the world
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need, I mean, the world now is so distracted by what's happening in Ukraine, by what's happening
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in China, Russia, and all of that, that attention that sometimes was focused on the Middle East
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seems to have shifted. But the Middle East remains a real danger point, a real flash point, and also a
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place where, in my judgment, this is controversial. Many people strongly disagree with me. But nonetheless,
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a place where you do see serious infringements of human rights, particularly the human rights of the
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Palestinians. And that needs to be dealt with in some way or other. But it'll be hard, Corey. It'll
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be hard. Well, and we'd have to be careful. I mean, Israel is a nuclear power. And if things really
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broke out into a very large scale, I mean, I think everybody's armed enough, again, that it wouldn't
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be a six-day war this time, unless something terrible happened. And we could really see things
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get a heck of a lot worse over there. Yeah, I mean, the big fear there, of course,
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is a war between Israel and Iran, which is, from time to time, seems to be a possibility. But
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I wouldn't make a prediction about that. Yeah, we just kind of hope for the best
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on that front. So, I mean, you spoke a little broadly, too, just on a bigger issue altogether.
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I mean, it's kind of a societal thing. It's something for those of us in the comfort of North
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America and Europe is identity politics, though. I mean, some people, I guess it's a bit of a natural
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tendency towards tribalism or our team and this and that. And people are embracing Jewish identity
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just, I think, just to stand out because they want to say, well, I'm this or I'm that and I'm
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oppressed or I'm not. And it's a trend. It's troubling outside of just the matter of Judaism.
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I mean, identity politics is really sweeping the world. Everybody is seeking to very carefully
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define their own particular identity, which is fine. I have no difficulty with that. And there
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are good reasons for doing it in some cases. But what I regret, this is often done at the expense
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of what makes us all the same, what binds us together. I mean, there are things that separate
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us for sure. And that's fine. But there are also things that bind us together, common objectives
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that we have, common problems we face no matter what our identity is. And what I regret is that
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identity politics, as it grows and becomes more and more powerful as it is doing, it tends to obscure
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and hide and devalue what makes us all the same, what binds us together and the common problems we have,
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we need to solve together. I mean, climate change is an obvious example. Climate change
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doesn't care what race you are, what color you are, or anything like that. It's a problem everybody
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faces. And we shouldn't embrace ideas that make it more difficult for us to deal with issues like that.
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I mean, I sometimes like to remind people of what Barack Obama said, I think it was in 2004,
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in a speech to the Democratic National Convention, when he said, this is Barack Obama speaking,
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there's no such thing, I'm paraphrasing, there's no such thing as white Americans,
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there's no such thing as black Americans, there's no such thing as Latino Americans,
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there are only Americans. Well, that was less than 20 years ago, but it now sounds almost medieval,
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because people don't think like that, regrettably, they think of their particular identity,
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and they repudiate any attempt by people who don't share that identity, to comment on it,
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to relate to it, to say that they have some understanding and sympathy with it, they don't
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want to know. It's lived experience, you haven't lived my experience, you can't understand me at
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all. I reject that. Yes, well, what we need is at least, at the very least, more frank discussions
00:19:00.760
in tender areas. As you said, yes, a lot of what you've covered is controversial, and I imagine some
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of the feedback you've gotten as a man of Jewish descent has been heeded, that's part of the fun of
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being in the public sphere. But if we don't want to talk about it, we're certainly not going to find any
00:19:15.160
solutions. Well, that's right. I mean, above all else, Corey, we have to talk about it. And we have
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to listen to what the other person has to say and not reject what they say, just because we don't
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like them, we don't like where they've come from, we have to listen to what they have to say. And we
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have to kind of reach where possible compromise. And if somebody is putting forward a bad argument,
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the way to respond to that bad argument is not to shut that person down, not to de-platform them,
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not to denigrate them, but to give them a good argument that replaces their bad argument.
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And that's dialogue, that's how civilisation advances, that's how a liberal democratic
00:19:54.920
country like ours survives. Well, and there's a lot of fantastic stuff packed into that book
00:20:01.000
that you put together. So I really appreciate that. And you're coming on to talk to us about it.
00:20:05.320
Before I let you go, where can people find a copy should they want to get out and get theirs?
00:20:08.840
Well, they can find it at the usual places, Corey, they can find it at the local bookstore,
00:20:12.440
they can get it from Amazon, they get directly from the publisher Sutherland House. I hope,
00:20:17.720
hopefully, they can download it on their Kindle. Hopefully, it's not that difficult to get.
00:20:23.400
Excellent. Yeah, there's lots of ways to get the books now. You don't even have to leave the house
00:20:26.760
anymore. Well, thank you again. And hopefully, maybe we'll talk down the road and it'll be over
00:20:32.520
having seen a breakthrough and some great solutions on this.
00:20:35.640
Well, that would be wonderful, Corey. Thanks. I enjoyed this.
00:20:37.960
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