Author Philip Slayton and his book, Antisemitism
Episode Stats
Words per minute
184.75972
Harmful content
Toxicity
6
sentences flagged
Hate speech
21
sentences flagged
Summary
Corey Slayton joins the show to discuss his new book, How Jews brought down the World Trade Center, and the role of anti-Semitism within the Jewish community. Corey is a professor of history at the University of Toronto and a regular contributor to publications such as The Forward and The Forward Magazine.
Transcript
00:00:00.480
Hello, Mr. Slayton. Thank you very much for joining us today. We really appreciate it.
00:00:06.480
Very good. Thanks. So I did read your fine book, cover to cover there. I appreciate it being sent
00:00:13.160
out. It's on a subject, of course, that's as I said, kind of at the start of the show is
00:00:19.620
it's existed since the first Jews came about, but you've kind of taken a bit of a different
00:00:25.940
approach, at least with addressing anti-Semitism and in more of the modern context.
00:00:30.000
Yes, I have. I've tried to place anti-Semitism, which, of course, as you know, has been around
00:00:35.560
for a long time. I've tried to place it in the context of modern identity politics, modern
00:00:41.400
social media, the rise of populism, other things that are happening in the world today and see
00:00:49.760
Yeah. And, you know, you kind of begin almost, I guess, in a controversial sense into the almost
00:00:56.360
that, to some degree, the anti-Semitism has been woven into the Jewish identity, and it's
00:01:01.200
actually one of the things that's helped keep Jews united when they're spread all over the
00:01:08.020
Well, I think that's true. I mean, a number of people, including, for example, Jean-Paul Sartre,
00:01:12.400
have said that it's really anti-Semitism more than anything else that keeps Jews together.
00:01:16.740
And if you look at Jews through the world, they're a very disparate community in many respects.
00:01:21.740
They have a variety of different views. Some are religious, but most are not.
00:01:27.540
Some support Israel, but some do not. And within Israel, as we've seen recently, there's all
00:01:33.060
kinds of groups from different backgrounds, with different beliefs, with different degrees
00:01:37.720
of religion that spend a lot of time fighting each other. So when you look at these very disparate
00:01:42.020
communities within Israel, around the world, you say, well, what gives it identity?
00:01:46.680
And one of the views is, I think it's an important view, is that it's anti-Semitism.
0.99
00:01:52.280
The fact that for some strange reason, a lot of other people don't like the Jews and Jewish
00:01:57.340
community, that's what drives the Jewish community together.
00:02:01.540
Yeah, and something I noticed, Lee, you know, year after year, we're hearing when it comes to
00:02:07.080
reported incidents of racism, for example, anti-Semitism tends to top the list. But I mean, aside from very
00:02:13.980
high profile, things like the horrific, you know, shootings in Pittsburgh and things such
00:02:17.800
as that, is it a matter, though, of a lot more things are being reported? Because we're not
00:02:22.320
really, I don't really see it on the ground as much. I mean, people are reporting microaggressions
00:02:29.260
Well, I mean, I think there is, of course, expressions of anti-Semitism quite often in
00:02:34.660
different places around the world, including within our own country. But my view is that some
00:02:39.920
of them are relatively small consequence, and not to be given huge weight. They don't mean
00:02:47.480
that, you know, another Holocaust is around the corner. And one criticism I would make
0.96
00:02:51.920
of some members of the Jewish community is they tend to overblow and exaggerate these
00:02:56.580
incidents in a way that's not healthy, and doesn't help the Jewish community or any
00:03:01.680
community. Now, I understand why people do this. I mean, we still live under the shadow
00:03:06.740
of the Holocaust. There are still a lot of people who are very nervous about how Jews
00:03:11.340
have been treated and could be treated in the future. But I do think a more discerning
00:03:16.960
way of considering expressions of anti-Semitism is a good thing. And I think the response to
1.00
00:03:23.420
expressions of anti-Semitism needs to be proportional. You know, not everything is a deep, dark, terrible
00:03:29.280
tragedy that foretells doom and gloom. Some things are not. So to answer your point, I think
00:03:36.300
anti-Semitism continues, but actually the degree of it and the importance of it and the significance
00:03:44.400
Well, yeah, I mean, we see issues again. I mean, it can spawn more vitriolic or dangerous
00:03:50.820
things. But I mean, I, you know, weigh in on the sewage of Twitter quite often. And I'll
00:03:56.280
have some clown come on, you know, who's going to talk about how the Jews brought down the
0.98
00:04:00.160
World Trade Center. And well, I just block them and move on. I mean, this is just a nutcase
0.99
00:04:05.260
with a keyboard. So I mean, it's still odious and offensive, but it isn't necessarily going
00:04:09.920
to turn into something major. But I mean, how do you distinguish between what's just the
00:04:13.980
lone crazy out there or what's part of a larger thing that could lead to a bigger problem?
00:04:18.320
Well, I mean, I think you have to be discerning and careful when you look at and when you evaluate
00:04:23.260
examples of anti-Semitism. And in my book, for example, I discuss what I describe as four
00:04:28.840
different kinds of anti-Semitism, ranging from incivility, stupidity on the internet,
0.99
00:04:36.060
the kind of thing you just described, which is unpleasant. I mean, no one's saying it's
0.99
00:04:40.820
okay to do that. It's not okay to do that. It's unpleasant. And of course, it can lead
00:04:45.300
to other things. But nonetheless, let's see it for what it is, which is often very inconsequential
00:04:51.960
acts of incivility perpetrated by silly, stupid, ignorant people. So that's one kind. But then
1.00
00:04:58.920
of course, there's other kinds as well. And you can go through to the ultimate most dangerous
00:05:04.500
kind, which is when anti-Semitism of some kind or other is incorporated in government
00:05:10.200
policy, in legislation, in statutes. And that's a whole different kettle of fish. There's a range
00:05:15.860
of things. And I think you have to accept that it's a range, look at what's happened, be discerning,
00:05:23.060
be proportionate in your response, and not treat everything, Corey, as if it's the end
00:05:28.560
Yeah. So the most, I guess, divisive problem or area we have going on right now is views
00:05:36.620
on Israel, Zionism, whether or not the state is sustainable as it is. I mean, that's dividing
00:05:42.140
even the Jewish community. You go a lot into detail on that one. But it seems to be one of
00:05:48.320
those ones that feels almost insurmountable as well. I mean, you brought up Kashmir, you
00:05:54.020
know, up in northern Pakistan, which probably my children will be watching disputes going
00:05:58.220
on up there as well. But it is our modern, our largest issue right now.
00:06:03.380
Well, it's a hugely important issue. And it's one, as you know, it's been getting worse in recent
00:06:10.340
times. And it's an issue that divides the Jewish community very severely, and not just
00:06:15.300
the Jewish community. But one thing I feel very strongly about is that to criticize what
0.92
00:06:21.740
some Israeli policy, for example, to criticize the extensive settlement of the West Bank by
00:06:27.820
Israel is not to be anti-Semitic. There's a tendency, particularly among some parts of the
00:06:33.580
Jewish community, to conflate anti-Zionism, opposition to certain policies of the Israeli government,
00:06:40.340
particularly, let's say the West Bank, with anti-Semitism. I reject that. It's perfectly
1.00
00:06:45.300
acceptable to criticize government policy and government actions. And that does not equate
00:06:50.640
with being anti-Semitic, although many people do make that equation.
00:06:54.740
Well, I mean, there's political merit, you know, as a guy who talks about a lot of political
00:06:59.680
things, if you want to try and shut down a conversation, that's a good way just to say,
00:07:03.180
well, we don't want to go there, because that would be anti-Semitic if you dare criticize
00:07:06.240
that. But I mean, every government should be able to be critiqued. But do you think perhaps
00:07:13.520
traditional then Jewish support for Zionism might be fading? I mean, you talk a lot about
00:07:20.000
that, the different types of Jews, I mean, whether they're secular, whether they're religious,
00:07:24.200
a large part of what the sticking point is, is of course, the Temple Mount. I mean, the Second
00:07:28.260
Coming isn't going to happen unless the Jews are there at that time, at least as far as the
1.00
00:07:33.240
scriptures are concerned. So I would imagine observant Jews are going to be very unwilling
0.99
00:07:38.940
to give up on that. But at the same time, when you're getting a larger move towards secularism,
00:07:45.720
Well, I mean, let's look at two communities. Let's look at first Jews in Israel. And even
0.90
00:07:50.720
within Israel, as we've seen recently, there's tremendous division about the acceptability of
00:07:57.060
various government policies, including settlement of the West Bank. Not all Jews in Israel favor,
00:08:02.660
extending or even maintaining existing West Bank settlements. But if you go to the United
00:08:07.240
States, where almost half the world's Jews live, within the United States, I think there's
00:08:13.480
growing opposition, particularly among young Jews, to much of what Israel has done and is
00:08:20.120
doing. Young Jews tend to be more secular. They tend to be on the whole left of center.
00:08:26.360
They tend to be supporters, for example, of movements like Black Lives Matter. And when they see
00:08:32.300
what they regard as human rights violations by Israel vis-a-vis the Palestinians, they don't like
00:08:37.880
it. And they ask themselves, well, can I really support as my family history, for example, is
00:08:43.580
traditionally supported? Can I really support a state that does this kind of thing? I wouldn't do
00:08:48.560
it within my own country, the United States. And I don't want to do it vis-a-vis Israel. So I think
1.00
00:08:53.320
there's a real prospect of much of the support of the U.S. Jewish community for Israel, which has been
00:08:59.760
extremely important to Israel over a long period of time, very important, fading. And that's a
00:09:07.540
So, I mean, you talked about a lot of interesting things, like the potential of going back. People
00:09:13.620
mention that often, like Morocco, there was a large Jewish population that was getting along quite well
00:09:18.780
with a dominant Muslim culture and leadership. So I mean, it is possible historically. And you're saying
00:09:25.480
that even, you know, some of the older Moroccans are, you know, wistfully looking back on the days of
1.00
00:09:31.120
when they had a, you know, the Jewish brethren there. But are the younger Muslim kids, as you
00:09:37.540
state a lot, most of them have never even met a Jew. And they're basing their opinions on social media
00:09:45.400
Stephen Winick- Yeah, that's true. I mean, it was a very important and large Jewish population in Morocco,
00:09:50.080
which essentially left Morocco at the end of the 1940s, after the creation of the State of Israel,
00:09:55.180
and went to Israel. Where, by the way, they weren't very well treated for quite some time.
00:09:59.380
They were Sephardi Jews. And the Ashkenazi Jews from Eastern Europe looked down upon them and regarded
00:10:05.380
them as, on the whole, inferior people. So that's a whole other story. But meanwhile, the Moroccans,
1.00
00:10:10.960
the State of Morocco in particular, has been, I think, quite wistful about the departure of the Jews,
00:10:17.800
particularly older Moroccans. And the Moroccan government, the king of Morocco, has been very
00:10:23.440
favorable to Israel and very favorable to the Jewish tradition that remains in Morocco. So it's a
0.73
00:10:30.640
complicated picture, Corey. And what I might add, for example, is it tends to be a reaction sometimes
00:10:36.460
that Arabs and Jews are natural-born enemies at each other's throats, given half the chance. This
0.95
00:10:43.300
is not the case. There are many similarities between the two religions. And historically, often,
00:10:48.640
the Muslims have sheltered Jews who had to flee other parts of the world. So it's a complicated history.
00:10:54.820
And a lot of the sort of shibboleths that are put around are simply not true. They're just that, shibboleths,
00:11:01.460
it's not true. Well, yeah, as you said, though, and part of the historic problem is the fluidity,
00:11:06.420
though, of acceptance of Jews among populations, you know, decade by decade or generation by
00:11:11.080
generation. Let's say, for example, you know, Morocco has been sounding very friendly and a
00:11:15.900
Jewish population moved back. But we don't know if another three election cycles or a revolution
00:11:21.200
comes along and suddenly you're getting chased back. Like, you can see where the value of Israel
1.00
00:11:25.280
as one sanctuary could hold a lot of appeal to Jews. Well, that is the fundamental idea, of course.
00:11:30.740
By the way, I don't think any Moroccan Jews, or very few who are going to leave or in Israel
00:11:34.760
now, are going to leave and go back. That's very unlikely.
00:11:37.980
Stephen Winick- But yes, I mean, the fundamental idea of Israel, of course,
00:11:40.100
was giving a people who had been chased around the world and persecuted around the world
00:11:45.560
for a long time a place of refuge. That is the compelling idea. It's an extremely attractive
00:11:51.680
idea. And, of course, it was given a huge moral force following World War II and the Holocaust.
0.53
00:11:58.080
It was a hugely moral debt that the world seemed to think or thought had to be paid by supporting
00:12:05.640
the creation of the state of Israel. Very compelling and attractive idea. But the reality on the ground
00:12:10.260
now, after such a long period of time, is somewhat different. It's more complicated. It's more nuanced.
00:12:17.160
Stephen Winick- And the morals, the rights and wrongs are not as obvious as they once were.
00:12:21.160
Stephen Winick- Well, and something of an irony you point out in the book is Israel was actually
00:12:25.560
kind of provided a place that helped with anti-Semitic governments around the world because they would,
00:12:30.280
well, we can chase these guys out of here. They got somewhere to go. Let's somewhere to put these
00:12:34.440
Jews and get them out of our own hair. That's not for the next necessarily best of intentions,
1.00
00:12:39.560
but a lot of nations were supporting the ongoing state of Israel.
00:12:42.840
Stephen Winick- Yes, I think that's true. That's a historical fact.
00:12:46.200
Stephen Winick- Which is unfortunate. So, I mean, getting,
00:12:49.960
as you said, it's nuanced, it's complicated. I mean, you talk a bit about it, you know,
00:12:53.400
the different types of states or possible visions for Israel. Like,
00:12:57.240
a solution-based approach is really difficult on this still, though. I mean,
00:13:02.600
Stephen Winick- Well, it is very difficult. And of course, a lot of people
00:13:06.360
of goodwill have tried for a long time to figure out some way whereby the problem of the Middle East,
00:13:11.640
the problem of Israel, Palestine, the West Bank, all of that could be fixed. I mean,
00:13:16.280
most recently, for quite some time now, was the so-called two-state solution,
00:13:21.080
whereby there'd be a Palestinian state, a proper standalone, autonomous state with its own sovereignty,
00:13:27.320
and of course, Israel. That's being tried. Various people have endorsed it. It hasn't really gone
00:13:33.560
anywhere. And I think the general view is it's been quite subverted now by the settlements,
00:13:38.360
Jewish settlements from the West Bank. An idea that I think has some merit, I call the Canadian
0.92
00:13:44.280
solution, although it's not original to me, is the idea of a federation. Two states, yes,
00:13:51.000
but a federation over the top of them, guaranteeing as between the two states, the Arab state and the
00:13:55.800
Israeli state, freedom of movement, certain economic freedoms, human rights, and so on. And within that
00:14:03.080
federation, each individual state would have huge autonomy and power, much the same as we have in
00:14:08.120
this country. You know, you as an Albertan might push back a bit against that, I'm not sure, but you
00:14:13.480
know what I'm talking about. Now, that would be enormously difficult to construct. It would require
00:14:19.240
a lot of goodwill, a lot of heavy lifting, a lot of careful thought, but it's not impossible, I don't
00:14:25.080
think. And what I do think is that the situation in the Middle East, the situation on the West Bank,
00:14:30.680
Palestine, Gaza, and so on, is going from bad to worse. We see that. It's untenable, it's extremely
00:14:37.400
dangerous, and only misery and destruction can result from it. And so the world has to try and
00:14:43.400
do what it can to figure out some way to fix this or ameliorate it.
00:14:47.640
Yeah, and it is radiating outwards. I mean, fairly or unfairly, we've got incentivized people protesting
00:14:55.080
against Israel, say, in North American universities. And unfortunately, sometimes that is translating
00:15:00.040
to abuse upon Jewish students who had nothing to do with it. We see those incidents or hear of them
00:15:04.920
occasionally. I mean, there's tensions that spread outside of Israel and into other areas that really
00:15:10.440
shouldn't be impacted so directly by it. Yes, I think that's true. And there is a kind
00:15:15.400
of a tainting effect that goes on. I mean, one crisis tends to lead to other crises. So I think the world
00:15:21.080
need, I mean, the world now is so distracted by what's happening in Ukraine, by what's happening
00:15:26.520
in China, Russia, and all of that, that attention that sometimes was focused on the Middle East
00:15:31.640
seems to have shifted. But the Middle East remains a real danger point, a real flash point, and also a
0.95
00:15:36.840
place where, in my judgment, this is controversial. Many people strongly disagree with me. But nonetheless,
00:15:43.880
a place where you do see serious infringements of human rights, particularly the human rights of the
00:15:49.560
Palestinians. And that needs to be dealt with in some way or other. But it'll be hard, Corey. It'll
1.00
00:15:55.560
be hard. Well, and we'd have to be careful. I mean, Israel is a nuclear power. And if things really
00:16:01.720
broke out into a very large scale, I mean, I think everybody's armed enough, again, that it wouldn't
00:16:08.440
be a six-day war this time, unless something terrible happened. And we could really see things
00:16:12.920
get a heck of a lot worse over there. Yeah, I mean, the big fear there, of course,
00:16:16.280
is a war between Israel and Iran, which is, from time to time, seems to be a possibility. But
00:16:22.280
I wouldn't make a prediction about that. Yeah, we just kind of hope for the best
00:16:28.360
on that front. So, I mean, you spoke a little broadly, too, just on a bigger issue altogether.
00:16:32.440
I mean, it's kind of a societal thing. It's something for those of us in the comfort of North
00:16:36.120
America and Europe is identity politics, though. I mean, some people, I guess it's a bit of a natural
00:16:41.480
tendency towards tribalism or our team and this and that. And people are embracing Jewish identity
00:16:47.800
just, I think, just to stand out because they want to say, well, I'm this or I'm that and I'm
00:16:52.120
oppressed or I'm not. And it's a trend. It's troubling outside of just the matter of Judaism.
00:16:59.480
I mean, identity politics is really sweeping the world. Everybody is seeking to very carefully
00:17:08.600
define their own particular identity, which is fine. I have no difficulty with that. And there
00:17:13.800
are good reasons for doing it in some cases. But what I regret, this is often done at the expense
00:17:20.040
of what makes us all the same, what binds us together. I mean, there are things that separate
00:17:25.000
us for sure. And that's fine. But there are also things that bind us together, common objectives
00:17:30.840
that we have, common problems we face no matter what our identity is. And what I regret is that
00:17:36.680
identity politics, as it grows and becomes more and more powerful as it is doing, it tends to obscure
00:17:42.840
and hide and devalue what makes us all the same, what binds us together and the common problems we have,
00:17:50.840
we need to solve together. I mean, climate change is an obvious example. Climate change
00:17:54.680
doesn't care what race you are, what color you are, or anything like that. It's a problem everybody
00:18:01.160
faces. And we shouldn't embrace ideas that make it more difficult for us to deal with issues like that.
00:18:07.560
I mean, I sometimes like to remind people of what Barack Obama said, I think it was in 2004,
00:18:12.920
in a speech to the Democratic National Convention, when he said, this is Barack Obama speaking,
00:18:19.240
there's no such thing, I'm paraphrasing, there's no such thing as white Americans,
0.60
00:18:24.040
there's no such thing as black Americans, there's no such thing as Latino Americans,
0.97
00:18:28.600
there are only Americans. Well, that was less than 20 years ago, but it now sounds almost medieval,
00:18:34.120
because people don't think like that, regrettably, they think of their particular identity,
00:18:39.480
and they repudiate any attempt by people who don't share that identity, to comment on it,
00:18:44.680
to relate to it, to say that they have some understanding and sympathy with it, they don't
00:18:49.640
want to know. It's lived experience, you haven't lived my experience, you can't understand me at
00:18:53.960
all. I reject that. Yes, well, what we need is at least, at the very least, more frank discussions
00:19:00.760
in tender areas. As you said, yes, a lot of what you've covered is controversial, and I imagine some
00:19:06.680
of the feedback you've gotten as a man of Jewish descent has been heeded, that's part of the fun of
00:19:11.320
being in the public sphere. But if we don't want to talk about it, we're certainly not going to find any
00:19:15.160
solutions. Well, that's right. I mean, above all else, Corey, we have to talk about it. And we have
00:19:19.640
to listen to what the other person has to say and not reject what they say, just because we don't
00:19:26.600
like them, we don't like where they've come from, we have to listen to what they have to say. And we
00:19:31.080
have to kind of reach where possible compromise. And if somebody is putting forward a bad argument,
00:19:36.760
the way to respond to that bad argument is not to shut that person down, not to de-platform them,
00:19:43.480
not to denigrate them, but to give them a good argument that replaces their bad argument.
00:19:49.400
And that's dialogue, that's how civilisation advances, that's how a liberal democratic
00:19:54.920
country like ours survives. Well, and there's a lot of fantastic stuff packed into that book
00:20:01.000
that you put together. So I really appreciate that. And you're coming on to talk to us about it.
00:20:05.320
Before I let you go, where can people find a copy should they want to get out and get theirs?
00:20:08.840
Well, they can find it at the usual places, Corey, they can find it at the local bookstore,
00:20:12.440
they can get it from Amazon, they get directly from the publisher Sutherland House. I hope,
00:20:17.720
hopefully, they can download it on their Kindle. Hopefully, it's not that difficult to get.
00:20:23.400
Excellent. Yeah, there's lots of ways to get the books now. You don't even have to leave the house
00:20:26.760
anymore. Well, thank you again. And hopefully, maybe we'll talk down the road and it'll be over
00:20:32.520
having seen a breakthrough and some great solutions on this.
00:20:35.640
Well, that would be wonderful, Corey. Thanks. I enjoyed this.
00:20:37.960
Canadian Shooting Sports Association. Without the CSSA, our gun rights would have been taken
00:20:43.160
long, long ago. These guys are on the front lines, helping to draft smart and intelligent
00:20:49.080
firearms regulations and legislation in Canada. And more importantly, educating the public about
00:20:55.080
how we keep guns out of the hands of the wrong people. To become a member, it's absolutely worth
00:20:59.960
every penny. You can become a Western Standard member for just $10 a month or $99 a year for unlimited