Premier Danielle Smith told a panel of 400 people in Edmonton that Alberta has an Ottawa problem. From the response, it seems a lot of people in the room felt the same way. But outside the UCP membership, and the people who give up a Wednesday night to go to a political meeting, how widespread is that sentiment? With me tonight is UCP Founding President Erika Barutis, who is also Department Head of Applied Politics and Public Affairs at Macamay College.
00:01:03.560Erica, you know the Premier fairly well, I think, founding president of the party.
00:01:11.260Why does the Premier think that Alberta has an Ottawa problem?
00:01:14.980We reported last night that she said that, well, you tell us.
00:01:21.660I don't think many people should be surprised. Premier Jason Kenney also said we had an Ottawa problem. He used a different term, which was standing up to Ottawa. This has been a decade long thing. I think Premier Smith is just maybe more direct in her communication.
00:01:38.340And from my understanding of last night, that sentiment by the 450 individuals really resonated that even though Mark Carney may be better for Alberta than Prime Minister Justin Trudeau, that you can't just flip a decade of frustration in a month or two.
00:01:58.620And so I think that this is a position where the government and this Alberta Next panel is looking to find pathways, have conversations since both the Fairdale panel and just since getting a pulse check of what the sentiment by Albertans still truly is.
00:02:18.220Well, do you get the sense that enough people care about this to actually give the premier the kind of support that these panels are supposed to generate?
00:02:26.800I mean, we've only had two so far. I hope that they'll do a series over the time, especially in those urban centers. You know, it's all published. They're doing a lot of road showing for this over the summer months, similar to what the Fair Deal panel said.
00:02:43.360But I don't know if it's going to just be an echo chamber of validation or what will come out of it is the bigger thing.
00:02:50.740So they can have the conversations. What are they doing to address what has been done since the Fair Deal panel?
00:02:56.660What can be done? What will be done differently?
00:02:59.760And what does that mean to Albertans in a landscape under Prime Minister Mark Carney than Justin Trudeau?
00:03:08.140Because, you know, the chessboard is different now.
00:03:11.520You said something a moment ago that I wasn't expecting, and when you said that there was a thought that maybe Mr. Carney would be better for Alberta than Mr. Trudeau.
00:03:21.740I mean, obviously, Mr. Trudeau was not good for Alberta, but is there a little optimism within the government?
00:03:28.820I mean, you saw it even with how all the elected officials and leaders of our country, including premiers and prime ministers, were playing nice during Stampede.
00:03:38.320There has been some movement towards perhaps who I believe Mark Carney to be more so with secrets and scandals.
00:03:47.620But I will say he did build the Building Canada Act, pushed it forward, you know, probably upset some of his base, some of his colleagues, but held on that commitment that he ran on.
00:04:01.300And that opens up opportunities for consultation for large infrastructure projects, including pipelines, to once again be feasible, which were not the case under Justin Trudeau.
00:04:12.380And so I think there is optimism. However, it devils in the details with how these consultations with Indigenous peoples go, how consultations interprovincially go.
00:04:25.080So there's still a lot of runway to see how much Kearney is willing to push.
00:04:30.100But I think the fact that he even introduced it, tabled it, and actually got it through is a sign that he's going to do differently than Justin Trudeau.
00:04:59.240And that's the thing is I'm being optimistic because we had a communist prime minister operating under a liberal banner. Now we have a, let's say, progressive conservative might be a stretch or a true liberal under a liberal government.0.85
00:05:11.580So I think the fact that at least on the spectrum, we've seen a shift back to the values and the beliefs that that party operated on is a little bit more comforting for someone like me that looks at, OK, the predictability, the sustainability of this and the feasibility, whereas Justin Trudeau was just on his little climate change course.
00:05:33.120well i think he was on one that was largely laid out and explained to him by by the president
00:05:40.000incumbent you know mr carney has been pushing this for 20 years and this is why i think so many
00:05:44.640of us find it so difficult to think that he's it's all changed now no and i think to that point
00:05:51.420i'm trying to be an optimist to say i'll give the chance but you can't expect and you and i are in
00:05:57.740the policy details where an average Albertan hasn't seen the proof in the pudding or the
00:06:03.700devil's in the detail. And so until there's a pipeline built, until there is autonomy within
00:06:09.320the province and return to how the constitution is written, I think that the sentiment that
00:06:15.560probably came out in that meeting last night will still resonate in large circles across Alberta.
00:06:21.760Well, that's actually the next thing I wanted to ask you about. It's pretty clear by the nature of the policy resolutions coming forward for the party convention in November that there are a very large number of members of the UCP who are actively looking at a path to independence, what it could look like, what the destination would be, how far they prepare to go.
00:06:50.820there's an interest there. Do you have any sense of what the sentiment is more widely in Alberta
00:07:01.720among people who aren't members of the UCP? Now, obviously, anybody who voted NDP, I'd say they
00:07:08.600were poor market for the idea of independence. A lot of people did vote for the NDP. On the other
00:07:15.020hand, there's probably, I would guess, a lot of UCP voters who have a sentimental, maybe a
00:07:24.780practical attachment to the government of Canada. So, as these meetings go forward, to what extent
00:07:33.100are they actually seeking input, and are they promotional, and where do you think people are
00:07:38.140in alberta on the on the matter of independence i think that there's a few different circles i
00:07:45.500think the unfortunate thing is what the ndp is trying to do is say and even broader circles of
00:07:52.220saying like separation equals 51st state which is very different than i think what a lot of people
00:07:57.420that may be coined separatist or separatist curious or whatever you want to call it that
00:08:03.420you'd want to know what that path looks like but that doesn't mean that you're going to go become
00:08:07.500the 51st state there's individuals that would want to explore separation under a dominion versus
00:08:16.140true independence so still respecting and working with the monarch which has its own pathway
00:08:22.140challenges one way or the other the others are looking at you know what does independent look
00:08:27.580like with a market access um and so there's the sentiment of separate separation which i think
00:08:35.260there's more people than you'd think feel that way because of the frustration that we had for
00:08:39.580the last decade there's some people that like myself would love to explore that but at the same
00:08:45.980well at the same time seeing what carney does um and so my hope is that not only are we looking
00:08:53.340here was what the fair deal panel put forward here is our current environment this is what we've
00:08:58.940learned this is what we should be looking at these are the questions we missed or the the perspectives
00:09:03.500we missed. Again, I think that there's going to be maybe, you know, less exploratory of how this
00:09:13.720is done by these conversations. But I hope that the Alberta Next panel comes up with what that
00:09:19.400would look like to present to Albertans to get, I want that full understanding before I would go to
00:09:24.920a ballot box to make a decision. I don't vote by my sleeve or my heart. I vote with my gut and my
00:09:31.700brain. And so without that information, I think it's very difficult. Similarly to, I think, how
00:09:37.040a lot of people felt about leaving the CPP. There's a sentiment there, but how you actually do it is a
00:09:42.440heck of a lot harder in reality. And there just wasn't that roadmap that I think a lot of people
00:09:50.000that maybe have the sentiment towards can actually tangibly understand. I'm wondering, Erica, whether
00:09:57.860I'm right in assuming that many people think, well, we have the referendum, and then if we
00:10:02.980vote for independence, we're on our way. I don't think it's quite that simple, is it?
00:10:07.900Absolutely not. And like I said, there's different versions of what does independence look like?
00:10:12.440Is it independence from all of Canada and removing the monarch? Is it independence there? Is it,
00:10:18.640like you said, with the UCP policies, I wish they had more sessions on how to write good policy,
00:10:23.980but i digress um but you know you're going to get a lot of you need to go to your school
00:10:29.140exactly you can sign up for applied politics and public affairs and learn how to actually write
00:10:34.220either convention floor policies or public policy but um thank you for that that underhand pitch
00:10:40.360and promotion of the program um but yeah so i think there's going to be some confusion there
00:10:44.820but it's not a to b it's a to b c d e maybe f and so that's where i'm hoping that these
00:10:52.140conversations get the sentiment of the true direction Albertans want to go again people
00:10:59.100that are looking for separation may be more inclined to attend these versus what the you
00:11:06.420know attending one of these NDP pro Canada whatever they're running in contrast to what
00:11:13.220the government is proposing. Yes so I think the Clarity Act would be triggered would it not that
00:11:20.960would be the first step yes yeah you'd have to do that you'd have to go through i mean i don't even
00:11:27.620know from how you'd establish once you do the clarity act i mean should it go past that what
00:11:33.400does it look like for um decisions of constitutional change what does it look like for infrastructure
00:11:40.220right you need to establish a police force a banking system a pension um and that's where i
00:11:46.600think a lot of people look and they're like, well, that's why 50 first state is easier because that's
00:11:50.840already established. But conforming to that, I mean, I would hope if we ever got there, we looked
00:11:57.680at what Texas has and some of their exemptions from the Constitution. But I really don't get
00:12:02.900the sentiment that people want to join the U.S. I think that the message is more we're really
00:12:07.820frustrated. We feel like we're not respected in confederation. I think Saskatchewan's right there.
00:12:13.060It's just they're not as loud as maybe Alberta has been or is currently.
00:12:18.600And that regardless of Carney being in office, a, you know, parting of the clouds of Trudeau, that there is maybe opportunity.
00:12:27.320We can't just all of a sudden lean in with false hope that or, you know, optimism guiding us.
00:12:34.620Well, there's still people that are frustrated and want to see our premier and our province push for more equality in confederation.
00:12:43.520You have used the word frustration a number of times in the past 10 minutes.
00:12:48.860And there are two things that legitimately could frustrate people.
00:12:54.120One is the sheer amount of money that goes out of Alberta and, quite frankly, keeps the rest of the country going.
00:13:02.320The other is the lack of interest or respect even for the dominant values of Alberta
00:13:10.560that we don't get from the rest of Canada.
00:13:16.480I'll just go out on a limb here, and I say the money is an irritation,
00:14:26.820We have, you know, less seats in the Senate.
00:14:30.120The four provinces equal one Quebec or one Ontario.
00:14:34.220There's distribution of seat count, seeing elections be decided before our polls close.
00:14:39.700There's a lot in the parliamentary democratic system that isn't working right now.
00:14:45.200the way confederation was set up is that the dictatorship isn't like the federal government
00:14:50.880is the same value as the other provinces that they work in collaboration i think that when you
00:14:57.460talk i talk about the frustration listen i'm actually i'm quite a realist even though i have
00:15:02.220some optimism for carney because more of a fingers crossed uh approach but i don't think equalization
00:15:08.600formula will be reformed i don't think senate's going to be reformed because that causes us to
00:15:14.920open up the constitution which we technically really haven't done since 1867 because we just
00:15:21.240added the charter of rights and freedoms like it was very minor we tried to do a bunch of stuff
00:15:25.560leading up to that and even in the 80s so i don't think that if albertans are sitting here being
00:15:32.840like well we just need constitutional reform i don't think that that's realistic but what i think
00:15:38.280the biggest thing that frustrates alberta is get the hell out of our lane and stick to what your1.00
00:15:44.520constitutional jurisdiction is don't try and jump over the province to deal with the municipalities
00:15:51.240like just stay in your darn lane and do what you're supposed to do as a federal government
00:15:56.760well and let provinces do what provinces were designed to do and i think that that would be
00:16:03.400a big sentiment shift from what we currently are frustrated with um so to your point money's
00:16:12.280annoying and a grievance because we see it in dollars and figures but the true sentiment to
00:16:17.160feel valued and appreciated would be get the heck out of my house yes well you know we tend and the
00:16:25.560premier herself tends to use the traffic analogy a lot staying out of a lane the other thing that1.00
00:16:30.280we might be reminding otto is when you see a red light you're supposed to stop and that's uh the
00:16:35.480The red light is when you are, in fact, poaching on the burglars.
00:16:40.060And to be clear, I mean, I think our biggest default is we always talk about pipelines, but that has to do with property rights.
00:16:46.860That has to do with transportation, corridors, a lot of like investments that we have for research, innovation, anything at the post-secondary level.
00:16:56.500Like to a lot of people, they just think, oh, Alberta wants you just to allow us to build pipelines from coast to coast and and say F you to everyone else in between Alberta, like Fort McMurray, perhaps, and the ports.
00:17:10.680That's not the case. We've seen Saskatchewan actually go ahead with a constitutional complaint and looking at using notwithstanding clause against the federal government on things like even property rates or carbon tax or these types of things that are impacting industries that thrive.
00:17:26.500So I think it goes beyond building pipelines and it's like, let us give you money.
00:17:32.880Like we're happy to play into that as long as if we need help or we need, um, policy
00:17:39.080that allows us to thrive, that you're not getting in our way.