Western Standard - Carbon tax and the future under the Liberal government

00:00:00.000 I'm here with Mark McQuaid Boyd. She is a principal with Council Alberta, a government and public relations firm.

00:00:19.120 She's also the former Minister of Energy for Alberta. Yes, with the NDP, but in fairness, she was about as good as you can get for an NDP energy minister.

00:00:29.620 You took that well. Kidding aside, she's a great lady and actually has done a lot for the energy industry in Alberta. 1.00

00:00:40.060 I can attest to that because she's here at the Global Energy Show with us and is quite warmly received around here.

00:00:46.700 We just had Robbie Picard walk by right now. Robbie's one of my good friends.

00:00:50.760 That is about as hard, ardent an advocate of the energy industry as you're going to get, and he likes you.

00:00:56.820 Yes, I like him a lot too.

00:00:58.220 Yeah, so any of our skeptical Western Standard viewers, just know, Mark's okay. Mark's okay. She's good people.

00:01:06.300 Mark, thanks for joining us.

00:01:07.600 Yeah, no, thank you.

00:01:09.260 So I saw you're on the program today. We weren't actually scheduled. I saw you're on the program.

00:01:12.840 Yeah.

00:01:13.020 I got to get you on. Did you serve the, was it four years as the energy mixture?

00:01:17.580 Yeah, four years, 15 to 19.

00:01:19.660 Yeah, and that was a turbulent time. We had just gone through an oil crash right before you guys came in the office.

00:01:25.380 That's a pretty bad time.

00:01:27.100 Yeah, yeah, it wasn't the best of times.

00:01:29.740 Yeah, and then we went through the carbon tax, and then we had federal tanker bans.

00:01:36.520 We had federal carbon tax.

00:01:38.400 Bill C-69.

00:01:39.680 Yeah, yeah, we had the C-69, but I don't know, there's no more pipelines bill.

00:01:43.460 Yeah, Bill. A lot of that has come full circle, some of it not completely yet, but almost.

00:01:50.480 Yeah.

00:01:51.120 Some of it will just start, you know, your reaction to where we're going right now.

00:01:55.240 We've had the, I guess, the introduction of executive orders to Canada, where the prime minister signs a big piece of paper and laws change.

00:02:03.000 The consumer carbon tax is gone, federally and provincially.

00:02:06.660 Yeah.

00:02:07.080 The industrial carbon tax still remains.

00:02:10.020 Mm-hmm.

00:02:10.780 I guess maybe just your thought on what's happened on the carbon tax front start.

00:02:14.340 Well, I think that was a good start. Take away the consumer part. It never was popular, and, you know, maybe look at a different way to do things.

00:02:24.020 I think they're going to look at the industrial land and sea, because, you know, we have it here in Alberta still, and it's probably the TIER program.

00:02:34.060 TIER. They just renamed it.

00:02:35.220 Yeah, and a lot of industry actually likes it, because it's a pot of money that they can use, you know, for decarbonizing or trying different things.

00:02:44.640 So, I think there'll be an appetite for it to stay in some fashion, but whether it changes to be a cap-and-trade type system or whatever.

00:02:53.300 Or voluntary.

00:02:54.160 Yeah, or voluntary.

00:02:55.020 I could see where they actually might keep it as a voluntary program.

00:02:57.000 Absolutely, pay it through a fund, and then you have access to that fund.

00:03:00.040 And I do get the impression that Prime Minister Carney is willing to listen and understand, you know, what industry wants.

00:03:09.060 So, I think it's good that it's staying for the moment and figure out what's going to work for industry.

00:03:14.220 You could go one of several ways on that.

00:03:16.400 I think the Liberals, they repealed the carbon tax, not out of principle.

00:03:21.100 I mean, weeks before, they were saying, this makes us all richer and it's great, blah, blah, blah.

00:03:26.020 But then they got rid of it. They had to politically.

00:03:28.260 But they kept the industrial carbon tax.

00:03:31.740 I've gotten a sense, a bit from Carney, especially from Gilbo.

00:03:36.520 He's not in the environment or energy portfolio anymore.

00:03:39.600 But he's still sitting around the cabinet table.

00:03:41.180 He was saying that, and Carney was saying, but in Coyer language, that the burden is going to shift from consumers to industry.

00:03:47.920 Do you read that as perhaps that they're going to continue increasing the industrial side of the carbon tax to make up for, from their perspective, losses on carbon emissions from the consumer side?

00:04:00.120 Hard to say. I hadn't heard that comment.

00:04:03.880 Well, he's right there.

00:04:05.300 Yeah, I know. He keeps looking at me.

00:04:09.620 I don't know if it's baked at all.

00:04:12.460 I think they're looking at different options and what they can do.

00:04:15.600 I mean, certainly, you know, there was money coming in, but it was also being spent out.

00:04:20.300 So if it's not being spent out, it's not coming in.

00:04:22.900 It's a wash.

00:04:24.480 I think it's important to look at industry.

00:04:26.960 If we do want to decarbonize globally, and we heard some of that today in some of the speeches I was listening to, we have to get the money from somewhere.

00:04:36.160 So maybe it is, like you said, either a continuing carbon tax on industry or a voluntary one and that you have access to the dollars remains to be seen.

00:04:46.760 But I do get the sense the government wants to talk about it.

00:04:50.060 And, you know, he's at the cabinet table, but it's not his portfolio anymore.

00:04:54.900 He talks to the media like it kind of.

00:04:56.260 He does, yeah.

00:04:57.160 He acts like it's kind of still his portfolio.

00:04:59.200 Well, sometimes it's hard to let go, maybe.

00:05:01.160 But, you know, he certainly could have some influence at the cabinet table.

00:05:06.140 But I look at a number of the people that are in cabinet now, and I think they're pretty straight shooters.

00:05:13.020 They look like they're willing to learn and listen.

00:05:14.980 And I've seen some good signals that they're wanting to administer.

00:05:20.780 I mean, that's considered a generally pretty positive sign.

00:05:23.200 Yeah.

00:05:23.540 How much weight he has at the table relative to the others is still rather too early to say.

00:05:27.760 Yeah.

00:05:28.060 So, yeah, his name escapes me on.

00:05:29.940 Tim Hudson.

00:05:31.240 Tim Hudson.

00:05:31.680 Yeah.

00:05:32.120 Yeah.

00:05:32.380 I mean, he came to the Calgary Chamber of Commerce and at least said the right things.

00:05:36.880 Yeah.

00:05:37.100 It looked like he was well-received, and even before he came, I heard some industry people saying they loved his resume.

00:05:43.640 So that was a good start.

00:05:45.360 I think putting Corey Hogan in as parliamentary secretary to him is a good move.

00:05:52.380 I was surprised he wasn't in the cabinet at all.

00:05:54.560 I actually had him pegged for energy minister to start with.

00:05:58.120 At least somewhere in the cabinet.

00:05:59.960 I mean, because there's less competent people in the cabinet right now, and you got a Calgary MP.

00:06:07.880 I was surprised not to see him in.

00:06:09.160 Maybe his energy, maybe not, but at least the cabinet.

00:06:12.620 I was surprised to see him first over.

00:06:14.300 I think we'll see him there eventually, but I like Corey a lot.

00:06:18.600 I've known him for a long time, and he worked with us in government in the bureaucracy side,

00:06:22.920 and he knows the energy industry really well, so we've got a great representative in him at the cabinet table, as it were,

00:06:31.080 to give Tim advice.

00:06:33.500 So I'm pretty happy that Corey was placed in that position.

00:06:37.080 So I think there's a lot of people that are willing to listen and learn,

00:06:42.920 and honestly, we've seen them come out to Alberta already,

00:06:46.580 and it looks like there is a willingness to repair the relationship that's been in a bit of tatters for the last few years.

00:06:57.140 Well, you're here representing a hydrogen energy-based client, right?

00:07:00.980 Yeah, one of our clients with Council of Public Affairs is a hydrogen client, 1.00

00:07:05.480 and we're working with them right now.

00:07:09.000 Actually, part of the group, part of the clients built Cedar LNG and then sold it to Pembina,

00:07:15.460 so they know what they're doing when they're building things,

00:07:19.160 and then there's a clean tech component of it.

00:07:23.040 And they're working at building a hydrogen highway all across Canada.

00:07:27.780 Sounds like a country song.

00:07:28.920 Yeah, I know, eh?

00:07:30.840 Fueling stations along the way, but they're also working at creating the need for hydrogen,

00:07:36.000 and that's good for Alberta because you can create it through power, 1.00

00:07:40.100 but you can also use a lot of natural gas to create hydrogen, so it's a great fit.

00:07:44.500 I really like the company. They're a great group.

00:07:46.980 It's going to get confusing because, you know, in eastern Canada, they call electricity hydro.

00:07:54.140 I know.

00:07:54.720 Coming from hydroelectricity, you know, my dad moved out to Alberta a number of years ago,

00:07:59.120 and he'd be like, oh, I just got my hydro bill.

00:08:00.900 I'm like, what are you? Huh?

00:08:02.700 I know.

00:08:03.280 We don't have, like, any hydro.

00:08:04.320 I'm sure we probably technically have some hydrogen, hydroelectricity power somewhere.

00:08:10.980 We do in Alberta, but yeah.

00:08:12.220 It's pretty small.

00:08:13.920 It's not a big thing.

00:08:13.940 It's not a big thing.

00:08:15.020 So as we start talking about hydro and hydrogen, it's going to get really confusing when we start doing research.

00:08:20.880 Yeah, it will.

00:08:22.380 But, you know, we're starting in the west, as usual.

00:08:25.800 And BC hydro means something else entirely.

00:08:27.700 Oh, absolutely.

00:08:28.760 Yeah.

00:08:29.480 You grow it.

00:08:30.600 So let's talk a bit more about that.

00:08:36.180 So, I mean, until just a few years ago, this was the global energy, sorry, petroleum show.

00:08:41.040 Petroleum show, yeah.

00:08:41.800 Before that, the Canadian energy show.

00:08:46.340 That may have been the original name, Canadian energy show.

00:08:47.940 Yeah, something like that.

00:08:49.040 But it goes back nearly 60 years.

00:08:51.120 Oh, yeah.

00:08:52.240 One of the oldest shows.

00:08:53.340 This is an institution.

00:08:54.520 I mean, I would have liked to see, you know, in the first couple of years, just a couple of roughnecks, I'm sure.

00:08:59.120 But it's now a bit more hoity-toity.

00:09:02.060 But it's still dominantly hydrocarbon conventionals and bitumen here.

00:09:10.320 But, you know, you've got Korean nuclear right there.

00:09:13.320 Oh, yeah.

00:09:13.880 You've got all sorts of components of the energy industry here.

00:09:19.600 Hydrogen is a big one growing up.

00:09:21.300 And it's kind of in between kind of seen as the renewables and the hydrocarbons.

00:09:27.680 It's kind of in between.

00:09:28.720 I mean, where do you think it kind of fits into the mix at something like the global energy show here?

00:09:33.140 You know, it's just, it's another option.

00:09:35.860 Even the minister this morning, who is the head of OPEC, said that everything's a mix.

00:09:41.980 And it's what works for different countries, what works.

00:09:44.780 And even they are going into renewables.

00:09:46.980 And I don't know about hydrogen, but they're going into, you know, a lot of mixes of energy.

00:09:53.020 And I think this show exemplifies that, that it is energy in all forms.

00:09:58.240 And, you know, as you said, nuclear has been brought up a couple times this morning.

00:10:03.780 And hydrogen is going to be just one more of those.

00:10:06.800 You know, right now, we're talking to people about converting their vehicles, like industrial-sized vehicles or fleets, from diesel to hydrogen.

00:10:18.000 It's a lot cheaper.

00:10:19.100 It's a lot cleaner.

00:10:20.520 And in this day of, you know, the trucking industry is just pennies that you make.

00:10:26.180 That can matter for them, converting to hydrogen.

00:10:29.720 But if they convert to hydrogen, they have to be happy that, or know, that there's going to be places to fill up.

00:10:37.180 So it's kind of a chicken and egg thing right now for the industry to build the need, but also the supplies.

00:10:44.860 Well, are there ways to build the need that don't go the route of mandates?

00:10:49.580 You know, when I see California and until recently the U.S. federal, actually part of the big falling, I guess, when Trump and Musk was getting rid of EV mandates.

00:10:57.320 Yeah.

00:10:57.540 You know, when I see guys like Gilbo and Farber Trudeau, when they talk about banning my, you know, my gas-powered truck, I'm like, well, I'll drive my truck into the ground, and then I'll learn to fix it like a Cuban or something. 1.00

00:11:13.000 I'm never going to an EV truck.

00:11:16.180 I, you know, I live out the country here.

00:11:17.860 I'm never doing that.

00:11:19.100 But are there ways you can think of building demand that aren't based on massive subsidies or mandates the way this was kind of done with EVs?

00:11:28.160 Yeah, yeah.

00:11:28.960 And honestly, I don't agree with doing subsidies to build an industry.

00:11:34.660 I think you, you know, put in policies.

00:11:37.200 Look how well it'll work for Ontario's EVs.

00:11:38.880 Yeah.

00:11:39.700 Up in smoke, 50 million.

00:11:41.320 And, you know, you're picking, I'm going to sound like you did in government, you're picking winners and losers.

00:11:47.600 Yep, yep.

00:11:49.680 But I think...

00:11:50.580 You've seen the light.

00:11:51.480 I must have convinced you.

00:11:53.420 But, no, I think, you know, it's, when it's a nascent industry like this, you know, government maybe has to look at maybe some temporary help at the beginning, just like we did with the oil sands many years ago to get it going.

00:12:09.800 But it should never be some program that you become dependent on.

00:12:13.900 It's just to get it started.

00:12:15.640 So, you know, in the case of hydrogen, maybe looking at subsidizing, you know, until they can get it commercialized, maybe the rate that people pay for it.

00:12:28.860 Because as long as it's in the non-commercial stage, it's going to be expensive until you can, you know, get it up.

00:12:37.420 So, some kind of policy that helps it become equal with other options.

00:12:42.480 And then it becomes, you know, a way for somebody to consider, okay, maybe I can convert my fleet because it's not going to cost me any more and it will be cheaper than diesel or whatever.

00:12:54.440 I understand that, but I mean, quote Milton Friedman, I mean, not the most popular guy in the NDP, but I think you might agree.

00:13:02.080 He said there's nothing so temporary as a, nothing so permitted as a temporary government program.

00:13:06.420 And that's unfortunately proven quite, but there have been exceptions, you know, there was government involvement, at least at the technology level, in getting the oil sands started.

00:13:17.900 Yeah, yeah.

00:13:18.440 I read a fascinating piece just a few weeks ago.

00:13:20.620 So, apparently the initial idea in the late 40s, early 50s was to detonate atomic bombs underground for the oil sands.

00:13:30.860 Early fracking?

00:13:32.080 The bastards in Ottawa nixed that.

00:13:34.280 They wouldn't let us nuke the sands.

00:13:36.440 Maybe they had a point.

00:13:37.980 Yeah.

00:13:38.300 Maybe.

00:13:39.740 But, you know, that was at the early technology level.

00:13:43.280 And then there were tax structures based around the capital investment on these things.

00:13:49.760 Yeah.

00:13:49.880 Uh, okay, fine.

00:13:52.780 But, I mean, too often these things just become permanent programs and it gets built into the business model.

00:13:58.480 I'm in media.

00:13:59.180 Look what happened with the temporary assistance for the media there.

00:14:01.640 Yeah, there you go.

00:14:02.540 It's permanent and it's never going away.

00:14:04.740 It looks like it's here for all time.

00:14:06.000 Yeah.

00:14:06.840 So, you know, dependency on government within industry.

00:14:09.820 Yeah, I think any policy has to be careful to put, you know, some boundaries around it.

00:14:15.860 Like, don't make it more than three years or five years or whatever.

00:14:19.160 Um, but, or have a, you know, like when we did the royalty review, um, we, we've fashioned

00:14:27.440 it so that when you're building and that you pay less royalties.

00:14:31.160 But once you're in production, then that's the time you, you pay more, you know, something

00:14:35.820 like that, where it's, it's a gradual system.

00:14:39.020 And, you know, there's lots of ways to look at it, but I, I agree, uh, you don't want

00:14:43.160 the dependence because then you also risk, you get dependent and then somebody comes in

00:14:47.480 and said, nope, like an Elon Musk who's doing that in the States right now, or was, and he's,

00:14:52.400 he's put to bed a lot of programs that people have depended on and then now they're stuck.

00:14:57.060 And so you, it either has to grow legs and go on its own or it doesn't.

00:15:02.260 And so I think from a government perspective, they have to be pretty confident that this

00:15:06.500 is something that a little bit of money or a little bit of regulatory support will help,

00:15:11.780 but even helping in the regulations, um, so they can build these, like in the case of

00:15:16.900 hydrogen, so they can build the stations.

00:15:19.580 We need regulations for those. 0.91

00:15:21.620 Something as simple as that government can help with.

00:15:24.400 Yeah.

00:15:24.580 And I think it's, it's, it is a weird, hydrogen is one of those, it's an intersection kind

00:15:29.400 of between the two sides and it's kind of all, it's funny how energy has become ideological

00:15:33.820 between, you know, these ones are left-wing energy and these ones are right-wing energy.

00:15:38.620 Hydrogen, I think is kind of the neutral ground in the middle with both sides are kind of okay

00:15:44.220 with it as long as it doesn't get into the heavily government subsidized and mandate.

00:15:48.480 As soon as you start mandating, I have to have a hydrogen.

00:15:50.160 I don't want a hydrogen.

00:15:51.140 Yeah, no, and I...

00:15:52.200 As long as it's, you know, our choice and it becomes competitive exactly, I mean, I

00:15:56.400 think there's a lot of room for it.

00:15:58.240 I, I agree and I think, uh, with all energy, it shouldn't be right or left energy or woke

00:16:04.440 and not woke or whatever.

00:16:05.840 Look at, uh, cyber trucks, if you drove one last year, you know, you were an environmentally

00:16:09.500 conscious granola cruncher, you drive one this year, you're a national socialist.

00:16:12.680 Yeah.

00:16:13.260 Yeah.

00:16:13.880 I mean, these are, these are weird cultural symbols.

00:16:15.780 But I think, uh, honestly, what government needs to do is just provide choice for people

00:16:21.040 and they can choose and industry can choose what they do, but they have to make it easy

00:16:26.420 for those choices.

00:16:27.560 This is, uh, yeah, that's my thinking.

00:16:30.140 I'd be interested if, uh, maybe you'd submit something for our pages, uh, some opportunities,

00:16:34.040 some things that maybe the Alberta government could do on that front.

00:16:36.400 I'll, I'll think about it.

00:16:37.580 Yeah.

00:16:38.300 Right on.

00:16:39.060 Uh, is there anything else you want to touch on for, uh, what you're doing at the Global

00:16:42.100 Energy Show today?

00:16:43.220 Um, no, right now I'm just talking to you and enjoying the rest of the day.

00:16:47.380 I'm done with my panel and, um, yeah, and you're just here to learn, uh, see what's,

00:16:53.100 what's going on in the industry.

00:16:54.660 It's good to stay in touch and, uh, I'm enjoying my time, uh, with, uh, Council of Public

00:17:00.960 Affairs, staying in the game and it's good to catch up with you.

00:17:04.100 It's good.

00:17:04.220 You know, I should, I'm going to go back and watch this later and then I'm going to

00:17:06.900 compare it to some of our question period exchanges from back in the day and just see

00:17:10.320 how much nicer we are to each other when, uh, when, when the drama of the legislature

00:17:15.040 and politics is taken out.

00:17:16.800 I don't think there'll be any comparison.

00:17:18.620 No, it's, uh, actually that was always a fun game to play and yeah.

00:17:22.600 Yeah.

00:17:23.220 Yeah.

00:17:23.540 I know you were always good when it was, when the cameras are off, uh, there was not many

00:17:27.020 people on both sides so we could, we could go for a beer afterwards and be like,

00:17:30.260 it was a good show today.

00:17:31.940 I, I tell people that a lot, like you have no idea that, you know, you it's, I always

00:17:35.920 like, like the road or not the road runner, bugs bunny and you know, the, and road runner.

00:17:40.540 Yeah.

00:17:40.980 Or the, you know, that dog and the, the sheepdog used to, and the, uh, and the, I forget who

00:17:46.460 it was.

00:17:46.760 They used to, you know, click in and then they'd run and be enemies and then they'd come

00:17:50.480 and yeah, those guys, I always found it like that.

00:17:53.580 Like you just, you know, yeah.

00:17:55.840 We're all friends at the break and people don't see that.

00:17:58.280 Most people on both sides aren't like that, but there were a few.

00:18:00.720 I mean, it was you, Shea Anderson, uh, surprising to some people, even Shannon Phillips.

00:18:04.760 Yeah.

00:18:05.040 I mean, she was mean on camera.

00:18:06.620 She was so mean on camera. 0.96

00:18:07.980 Yeah.

00:18:08.300 But off camera, perfectly, super nice lady. 0.85

00:18:11.120 Yeah.

00:18:11.640 Yeah.

00:18:12.160 Oh my God.

00:18:12.560 No, it was, it was fun.

00:18:13.820 And you know, we did a lot of good work together and, uh, you know, and, and people don't realize

00:18:18.700 that, that you actually do work across the aisle and, you know, we mostly just hate on

00:18:22.600 each other.

00:18:23.000 Well, yeah.

00:18:23.640 Every once in a while, we found some areas.

00:18:24.720 You try to find some areas where it's important and, and talk and yeah, it was good.

00:18:30.000 Well, it was a great catching up with you and I'll see you around the show.

00:18:32.960 Yeah.

00:18:33.180 Sounds good.

00:18:34.020 Thanks.

00:18:34.520 All right.

00:18:34.740 That's Mark McQuaid Boyd.

00:18:35.560 She's a principal with Council of Public Affairs and the former Energy Minister of Alberta.

Western Standard - June 12, 2025

Carbon tax and the future under the Liberal government

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