In this interview, we discuss Prime Minister Mark Carney's leadership compared to Justin Trudeau's, the influence of pro-Israel forces in Canadian politics, and the use of anti-Semitism accusations to silence critics of the State of Israel.
00:01:32.740So, Senator, you made some comments recently to the media on your pride or your lack thereof
00:01:37.960in Canada, given Canada's position on the Israeli-Palestine question.
00:01:42.140Can you provide some more context to that, please?
00:01:46.500Well, the horrors in Gaza and the West Bank have been going on for over a thousand days.
00:01:55.000There are documented reports of atrocities, severe violations of international law, the curbing of humanitarian assistance to Gaza, and gross violations of human rights.
00:02:17.780And I'm surprised that the Canadian government has not condemned the actions of Israel more vigorously, as we do when there are human rights violations and serious violations of international law in other places.
00:02:40.120and it's in that context that I express my disappointment with the Canadian government
00:04:25.140This answers your question, which is a free state of Palestine living in peace and security with Israel, recognizing not just Israel's, quote, right to exist, but to live in full freedom and security.
00:04:47.660And those are the two core elements of that.
00:04:55.140And what's necessary for that to be achieved, many things are necessary for that to be achieved.
00:05:01.900Part of what's necessary for that to be achieved are a series of reforms by the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank.
00:05:13.420There are a range of other issues that are required in order to stabilize the situation.
00:05:19.080We've called for an end to these illegal settlements, settler violence.
00:05:23.800We have instituted sanctions. We're working with regional partners. We're working with all interested counterparties to try to move that forward so we can get to that end state, which is still, as you would know, some way off.
00:05:38.240Senator, what's your reaction to that exchange?
00:05:40.740um well there were a lot of words there he didn't actually answer your question about a
00:05:50.100zionist palestine i think the way you put it he didn't address it directly
00:05:58.020um some of what he said makes sense particularly the free and independent palestine hence the two
00:06:09.860state solution and very importantly canada's recognition of palestine so there's not much
00:06:20.820to react to in terms of the question of whether he's a zionist if as you tell me he has said he is
00:06:30.420supports a zionist palestine i don't understand what that means my understanding of zionism as
00:06:43.300it is currently practiced by israel is one in which there is illegal occupation of palestinian
00:06:52.900territory there is the violation of international law not only through the illegal occupation but
00:07:02.900by the atrocities committed in gaza and through the expansion of illegal settlements in the west bank
00:07:12.180and also by the further annexation of territories in Gaza and the West Bank.
00:07:21.440So I don't know what definition of Zionism he's using.
00:07:27.300It certainly sounds like an idiosyncratic definition,
00:07:31.800but insofar as the practice of Zionism, as I see it happen before my very eyes, so to speak,
00:07:40.700I cannot support that understanding of the term.
00:07:47.540So Mark Carney has led the country for a little bit over a year now.
00:07:51.340What do you make of his leadership on this particular issue?
00:07:54.120And do you see any changes compared to his predecessor and Justin Trudeau?
00:08:02.780and he, of course, is the one who initiated and made happen
00:08:09.900the recognition of the state of Palestine.
00:08:13.880He has been very clear about some of the violations of international law
00:08:22.740by Israel and of the need for humanitarian assistance to be unimpeded.
00:08:28.940But he has not done anything substantive to signal to Israel that there are consequences for Israel's gross violations of international law.
00:08:45.020In effect, he has allowed Israeli impunity to continue.
00:08:52.240Beyond that, I think this government, while it has made progress when it comes to the recognition of Palestine, has failed to look at the other ways in which Canada could be deemed complicit in genocide, plausible genocide in Gaza.
00:09:13.900For example, through our continued support for Israel, through the sale of arms and provision of other kinds of military support, as well as in the continuation of the Canada-Israel free trade agreement where we provide preferential access to Israeli imports into Canada.
00:09:40.660and also allow for preferential access for goods that originate in illegally occupied Palestinian territory in the West Bank.
00:09:53.120So there's a very long way to go in terms of what I would consider the minimum requirements for Canada to live up to its obligations in international law with respect to Israel's violations of law in Palestine, both Gaza and in the West Bank.
00:10:17.360so you know i read your comments in detail and i noticed that you're essentially arguing the
00:10:23.880premise that canada as a whole its government primarily is not doing enough on the on being
00:10:30.760critical in israel frankly on israel's behavior so i just want to ask you you know you are a senator
00:10:36.700you're an independent senator you've been there for some time so you understand the political
00:10:41.360bubble in Ottawa, what do you think it is that is barring some of that action that you're hoping
00:10:47.580for? Because it seems like the public side are very much on your side, which is the pro-Palestinian
00:10:52.680sentiment. It's well expressed in the Canadian society, specifically well expressed in the
00:10:56.240Canadian left. Liberals, NDP voters, supporters are very vocal and very enthusiastic on that
00:11:02.800support. So what do you think is deterring the government or maybe just avoiding them entirely
00:11:09.300from being able to reach the ideal policy points
00:13:15.820And this mindset is so pervasive, so deeply embedded in the Canadian establishment, particularly in the leadership class, if I can put it that way.
00:13:31.960certainly within MPs and senators, probably across the corporate leadership class in many of our
00:13:40.760universities and hospitals and other public institutions. This fear, this misperception is so
00:13:49.000deep that people are just afraid of breaking it. Being called an anti-Semite is a terrible thing
00:14:00.760because of what we know about the history of anti-Semitism.
00:14:05.600But it's important that we make it very clear
00:14:09.020that it is not anti-Semitic to be critical of Israel
00:14:14.240for documented violations of international law.
00:14:17.500And our government needs to have the courage to do that.
00:14:22.180Well, I mean, it seems like I've found at least a few social media statements
00:14:26.780calling yourself and other voices in that space anti-Semitic.
00:14:32.120You mentioned pro-Israel forces, so let's just go back to that point you mentioned.
00:14:36.640Who are the pro-Israel forces in Canada or in Canadian politics
00:14:40.540that are running a lot of that, that are making that reality possible?0.65
00:14:45.920Well, the groups that want to justify what Israel has done and is doing in Gaza.
00:14:53.280Can you mention about any particular groups that you've identified that are
00:14:57.280There's no, basically, it would take you 30 seconds scrolling through any social media feed
00:15:06.880to identify these groups as well as individuals. And I should say that these are also individuals
00:15:14.640who are embedded in associations, in corporate boards, university, senates, the Parliament of
00:15:28.080Canada, in the media, among your colleagues. They are in many places and they can be identified
00:15:39.520simply by the position they take, which is the conflation of acts taken by the state of Israel
00:15:53.080with Jewish identity. And by the way, this is a viewpoint that has been advanced by,
00:16:02.020I should say this is an analysis, a correct analysis that has been put forward by the Jewish Council of Australia, which correctly points out that the rise in anti-Semitism is precisely because of the conflation of Jewish identity and the actions of the state of Israel.
00:16:26.280The Jewish Council of Australia has said it's wrong.
00:16:28.660So I only wish that our political and other leaders would also come to that realization.
00:16:37.100Well, given this dynamic of the fact that pro-Palestinian voices in Canadian politics or voices that are critical of the Israeli government or its actions have been labeled anti-Semitic, such as yourself but other people from around the political space, commentators, activists, authors, you name it.
00:16:55.240So given that dynamic and how you mentioned itself, it's an effective methodology. Canadian society is relatively a polite seeking society. People don't want to be called anti-Semitic or don't want to be called a bigoted in any form, frankly.
00:17:08.240Is that spelt to you a possible weakness of the emphasis of Canadian politeness in Canadian politics, frankly, because ultimately I think someone to be bigoted would engage some sort of understanding of their bigotry, whereas I think this is kind of a politicized sort of tactic that is being used that you've described yourself by pro-Israel forces.
00:17:31.940So is there like a weak point, specifically in Canadian society, that keeps politicians muted or softer on this issue because of that fear?
00:17:42.040I mean, because the accusations are there and they will continue to be there.
00:17:47.280But what do you think politicians and representatives should be doing to get around that fear?
00:17:56.340Well, the weak point is not politeness.
00:17:58.540i would never want to give up on uh the you know canadian quintessential canadian trade of being
00:18:05.260polite that's that's a virtue uh it's not politeness that's holding us back it's
00:18:13.260the inability to recognize uh double standards and let's be frank it's the material
00:18:20.620consequences and incentives that lead some Canadians to close their eyes to what is
00:18:33.460glaringly obvious. The fact that they are pro-Israel forces that are generous, generous
00:18:47.360donors to universities, to museums, to charities. There are pro-Israel forces that are thought
00:18:58.520leaders in the sciences and the humanities and the social sciences. There are pro-Israel forces
00:19:08.900that are seen as champions of human rights,
00:19:17.160All of this creates an ambience, a context for Canadians
00:19:25.580who are in the leadership class to be deeply influenced
00:19:30.400and incentivized, I should say, to not be critical of Israel.
00:19:36.940But look, as you pointed out, the public is aware of the double standards.
00:19:45.680The public has rejected the dissonance, the profound dissonance of this view that you cannot criticize Israel because it seemed to be anti-Semitic.
00:19:57.660I think it's only a matter of time, frankly, before our, it's kind of sad that the leadership class is behind the public, but it's only a matter of time before our leaders across Canadian society can no longer put up with the dissonance and are forced to face the reality.
00:20:26.720As, you know, as someone has said very wisely, one day everyone will say that they were against this genocide, that day will come, and when that day comes, everyone will be coming up with excuses for why they didn't see it sooner.
00:20:50.220so i want to talk about antisemitism very briefly and specifically the human rights report published
00:20:56.980by the senate in april or the senate human rights committee in april um it talks about a few things
00:21:03.940and of course it echoes a lot what i saw in the preceding or the following actually uh bernie
00:21:10.120report on the same topic the rise of antisemitism in canadian society it cites a number of different
00:21:15.580causes, but primarily, again, the anti-Zionism, anti-Israel rhetoric that those groups and those
00:21:24.320communities view as contributing to or part and parcel of the anti-Semitism expressed in Canadian
00:21:30.800society. And as a result, it advocates for a few things to combat with that. Digital literacy
00:21:37.520education for K-12, other kinds of educational programs, hate and bias training for officials
00:21:45.140and people in law enforcement, and also adopting or using the IRA definition of anti-Semitism,
00:21:53.880the working definition they have, which would not be binding per se, but does create this
00:21:58.820mechanism of anti-Zionism equals anti-Semitism per their viewpoint. So can you tell me a little
00:22:05.060bit about your views on how the Senate and your colleagues in the Senate, Leo Hosakis and others
00:24:10.020I would be even more disappointed if it endorsed the IHRA issue because it is precisely the IHRA definition that gives the impression that criticizing Israel harshly is anti-Semitic.
00:24:27.940Again, I go back to what the Jewish Council of Australia has wisely elucidated,
00:24:38.000which is that the rise in anti-Semitism is due to the conflation of Jewish identity
00:24:45.520and the actions of the state of Israel.0.81
00:24:48.320That's a profound but obvious statement.
00:24:51.420And I'm so disappointed that our Human Rights Committee was not able to come to that realization.
00:25:00.660Awesome. Senator, thank you so much for your time. Really appreciate the talk.