The Western Standard has been served with a legal notice from the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation demanding that they take down a graphic on their website calling the CBC "fake news." The Western Standard is fighting back, and Jonathan Dennis, their new legal counsel, is here to talk about it.
00:01:35.380I'm joined today by, in the bottom right corner, Dave Naylor, news editor of the Western Standard.
00:01:42.560In the upper right corner, Corey Morgan, our podcast editor and columnist with the Western Standard.
00:01:47.980And a special guest and a friend of the Western Standard, Jonathan Dennis, former Minister of Justice and Solicitor General for the province of Alberta, and occasional talking head on the Western Standard.
00:02:00.360I'll just give a brief introduction about what's happening.
00:02:05.940I'm going to toss it to Dave Naylor for some details.
00:02:08.800But in short, the Western Standard has been served with legal notice from the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation that we would be, in their opinion, in violation of trademark law and have ordered us to take down a graphic calling the CBC fake news.
00:02:30.220I'll go straight to Dave Naylor for kind of a summary of what's happened.
00:02:33.300And then we're going to discuss it with other panelists, including Jonathan Dennis, who's been hired as legal counsel for the Western Standard against the CBC's legal threat here.
00:02:47.860Nothing like a controversy on a cold Friday afternoon to keep us occupied.
00:02:54.320Derek, this started, as you know, earlier this week when a graphic went up on the Western Standard website using the CBC logo with the phrase fake news and then saying, if you want better coverage, go to the Western Standard as we're unbiased.
00:03:13.820And that woke somebody up in the bureaucratic headquarters of CBC down in Toronto.
00:03:20.320One of their lawyers sent out a nasty letter.
00:03:24.060And, Derek, I'll throw it back to you and to say what's going to be happening in this David versus Goliath battle.
00:03:30.560Well, the Western Standard has very clearly sent our response back to the CBC that we will not be complying in any way whatsoever with their orders to remove the graphic on the grounds that this is fair use.
00:03:50.340But why don't I just toss it to Jonathan Dennis, our legal counsel, and, as I said, former Minister of Justice, Solicitor General for Alberta, and he can discuss what's been going on.
00:04:03.600So let's just talk about the law on this point, first of all.
00:04:06.560There's different sets of laws in Canada to deal with intellectual property.
00:04:10.480That includes things like copyright and trademark.
00:04:12.380Yesterday, the Western Standard received a letter from CBC's legal department suggesting that the uses of their GEM logo was an infringement of both copyright and trademark.
00:04:25.260The law dealing with copyright is a federal act.
00:04:27.680Section 29 of that particular act provides for what's called a fair dealing exception to that.
00:04:33.280And specifically, there's a Supreme Court in Canada case from 2004 that states that, quote,
00:04:39.500those who deal fairly with a work for purposes of research, private study, criticism, review, or news reporting do not infringe copyright.
00:04:49.300Now, in this particular case, the Western Standard was not trying to sell any wares or pass the CBC's logo off as their own.
00:04:56.980I would argue that there's clearly a fair dealing exception here.
00:05:00.480The overarching issue to me is this isn't a left or right issue.
00:05:04.760This isn't an issue whether or not you agree with what the Western Standard has to say.
00:05:08.800No offense, Derek, I don't always agree with your reporting either.
00:05:11.380But, you know, you have the right to publish your views as you see fit,
00:05:17.280subject only to small limitations of things like defamation.
00:05:34.100Yeah, we certainly appreciate the work you've done in crafting our initial response to the CBC,
00:05:41.400telling them where to stick their threat.
00:05:43.380I mean, the CBC receives, I think, about $1.3 billion a year in direct subsidies from taxpayers.
00:05:53.220And they seem to have enough money left over for an entire legal department in which to try and bully and silence in lawfare some of the very few independent media outlets left in Canada.
00:06:06.740The Western Standard is one of a very, very small number of media outlets in Canada that refuses to accept government funding of any kind whatsoever or to comply with media licensing.
00:06:20.500Corey, what are your thoughts on this?
00:06:22.360Well, it's I think the state broadcaster, I like calling him that, drives them mad.
00:06:29.520They're not technically one, but they're pretty close.
00:06:31.920It shows how vulnerable they're feeling, though.
00:06:34.700I mean, the face of media has changed and independent media sources such as the Western Standard, True North, Rebel, they're coming up and they're grabbing viewership.
00:06:44.600And these old stalwarts of that obsolete media, you know, foundation really just don't know how to handle it and deal with it.
00:06:53.720So they're lashing outwards, ridiculously in this case, but it's indicative of them losing their viewership and they're bitter and they really don't know how to deal with it.
00:07:04.580And it's intolerable that our tax dollars essentially are being used at this point to try and push down alternative points of view out there.
00:07:12.020I mean, if you're technically going to go on anything, the CBC should be based on bare discussion and having as many points of views in Canada as possible, not jealously guarding their little corner of the media.
00:07:22.120Jonathan, maybe we should flesh out a bit more what the legal threat was.
00:07:57.220You scroll down a little bit, you can actually get the letter itself.
00:07:59.900And don't believe me, believe what the CBC said in their particular letter.
00:08:03.320So in that letter, basically, they're asking that you take down the tweet and that you agree that you're not going to use their gem, their logo in the future.
00:08:13.460It's a very self-serving letter, like it talks about being the national broadcaster, how the gem is well known throughout Canada, which it is.
00:08:21.540But realistically, the letter isn't signed by anybody.
00:08:25.680It just says the particular legal department.
00:08:27.980And they don't quite threaten legal action here, but I suspect that that may be the next letter if they don't take a look at what we've commented.
00:08:40.500The last thing I want to offer to you, Derek, is that the Supreme Court of Canada has talked about a marketplace of ideas.
00:08:47.740I'll give you this quote to think about.
00:08:49.400It's in the Committee for Commonwealth of Canada v. Canada, a 1991 Supreme Court decision that states that, quote, free debate has often been perceived as the optimal means to discover the, quote, truth through the marketplace of ideas within which truth will ultimately prevail.
00:09:06.840So the bottom line is this, is that this is an attempt to censor a opposing view that people at the CBC don't agree with.
00:09:14.620And, you know, the CBC are entitled to their views.
00:10:24.220They may not agree with your opinion and vice versa.
00:10:27.020But the bottom line is that you have the right to go and state your opinion.
00:10:29.980If you feel that the CBC is fake news, that's that's fair comment.
00:10:33.660OK, you can back up your comment with whatever you want.
00:10:36.320And some people will think it's fake news.
00:10:38.180Frankly, Derek, some people will think that you have fake news.
00:10:40.240But the point is, is that you we live in one of the most robust democracies in the world, and this should not be a situation where one party tries to prohibit another person's another person's free speech.
00:10:55.760The second thing is that the courts are independent and the courts have made rulings against government run organizations in the past.
00:11:03.360I do trust the courts in this in this country.
00:11:05.840And particularly as you get to the higher courts, the Court of Appeal of Alberta, Supreme Court of Canada, you end up with with some very detailed and intricate decisions.
00:11:16.480Most of these decisions are published and the court is designed to be a check and balance, not not just on citizens, but on governments.
00:11:23.860So I would respectfully differ with the statement that that there's always a preference in the courts to to government run institutions.
00:11:33.420In fact, the charter only applies to governments in this in this particular country.
00:11:37.420So I, I would suggest that people here have to have to be held to the same standard, whether you're the CBC, whether you're the Western Standard or another organization.
00:11:46.980The bottom line is that the same inalienable freedoms and rights that we have as Canadians applies here.
00:11:53.060And and I frankly, as a as a voter myself, I'm offended that a broadcaster would actually seek to try to censor an opposing view.
00:12:03.420Well, we've got some other comments here.
00:12:06.220Andrea Kettleboro says, of course, they have to do that just to save their last vestiges of credibility.
00:12:15.300The CBC's ratings have fallen off a cliff.
00:12:17.920Virtually nobody watches it, but every single Canadian has to pay for it.
00:12:22.700Matt McClain says, or Matt McClellan says, the CBC is the largest paid propaganda machine in Canada.
00:12:31.600Thank you for standing up for us people that refuse to believe in that left wing narrative.
00:12:36.620And I think it's pretty hard to say that the CBC isn't left, but I don't think it's about that.
00:12:42.860I think it's about the state broadcaster, be it in Russia with Russia Today or or the CBC using its power and resources and immense taxpayer support to try and quash one of the few genuinely free press organizations in Canada.
00:13:00.340There are a few, Corey Morgan listed off a number of them.
00:13:04.400You know, what's kind of funny is if you, on Twitter, Russia Today, RT, you know, a lot of people are familiar with it.
00:13:11.900On Twitter, it has a tag attached to its profile.
00:13:17.960I think it says state affiliated or state sponsored.
00:13:21.080And that's required for Russia Today, RT.
00:13:24.380But the CBC does not require that, but yet it's governed entirely by the government.
00:13:31.600Mike Hogarth says, have you thought about reaching out to True North or Rebel News for help?
00:13:38.740I mean, those are separate news organizations, separate media organizations, and they kind of do their own thing.
00:13:43.760I do know I've seen some folks from True North, like Andrew Lawton, on social media, smashing the CBC up for this.
00:13:54.700I haven't paid too much attention to social media on this yet today, although I'm sure later on I'll check it out.
00:14:00.680But I would strongly suspect that we're going to have strong support from the other independent media outlets.
00:14:06.300It'll be interesting to see the way the other mainstream media outlets that are not as supported by government as the CBC come out on this.
00:14:15.580How will Post Media respond, Toristar, Globe Media?
00:15:47.740We don't want to censor these comments.
00:15:48.860We just want to expose them as the idiocy that they are.
00:15:52.340And, you know, getting back to this all being about speech, and as Jonathan said, with left and right, I would be just as offended if Press Progress was going through this sort of thing, which is a very left-wing online publication, and the CBC was going after them.
00:16:07.340I mean, they have the right to be out there and not be pushed around by a state broadcaster like that.
00:16:43.200I love people saying stupid things, and I like to share it.
00:16:45.660That's why I don't get the whole Twitter and Facebook police idea of shutting people down.
00:16:50.440I like to amplify silly things and expose it.
00:16:56.000A very much different philosophy than they have with the CBC.
00:17:02.040Audrey Hollingshed, if I said that right, says,
00:17:06.100Oh boy, the CBC pot calling the kettle black.
00:17:11.000We've had a tremendous outpouring of support right now.
00:17:13.660We've launched a fundraising campaign for our legal fund.
00:17:22.380That is to get donors to come on out and support what we're doing.
00:17:31.440You don't even have to support the Western Standard.
00:17:33.600It doesn't need to be your cup of tea.
00:17:35.000But if you agree that the state broadcaster, the CBC, should not be using its $1.3 billion annual budget from taxpayers to try and crowd out some of the very few free press organizations left in Canada that do not receive any government support whatsoever,
00:17:57.420We've already had a great outpouring of support for the Western Standard Legal Fund, and we're just going to show it on the side of the screen here.
00:18:05.400But people can go to westernstandardonline.com forward slash CBC.
00:18:12.740There we'll give you a bit of information about our CBC Legal Defense Fund, and you can just click right on the link about two-thirds of the way down and donate.
00:18:27.080We understand these are pretty slim times, but $20, $50, $100, $1,000.
00:18:32.060Whatever you can do is going to be a big help to make sure that if this goes to the next level, that we've got the resources available to take it on.
00:18:41.060And any surplus that comes from this, because we don't know how far the CBC is going to take this, but any surplus that comes from this is going to go towards making sure that, obviously, we settle any legal bills.
00:18:51.580But any surplus beyond that is going to go just to support Western Standard journalists and columnists, making sure we continue to do the work we do.
00:18:59.600So, you know, there's a bit of, I mean, it's not the same, but this rings, this has got kind of echoes of the last time the government tried to take on the Western Standard.
00:19:14.840And that was the original, older Western Standard, circa 2006, when, again, we're talking about this, when, and just for fun, we'll put it right back up in the corner.
00:19:25.620So we have, when the government tried to censor the Western Standard from publishing the famous Danish Mohammed cartoons and took the Western Standard to court, tried to silence it, and it ended up in a humiliating defeat for the government.
00:19:42.600The government tried to get out of the case because they realized they were going to lose it.
00:19:46.520And the Western Standard wanted to take it to the Supreme Court of Canada so they could challenge some of the so-called human rights legislation in Canada at the federal level, right at the Supreme Court.
00:19:55.580The government's prosecutors realized this, and they tried to back out as fast as they could, but it was a humiliating legal defeat for the government.
00:20:03.660Now this is the government trying to pick a fight with the Western Standard again.
00:20:08.200I don't think it's going to go very well.
00:20:10.260But, yeah, just the other week, last week, we republished the Mohammed cartoons after a teacher in Paris was beheaded for showing his class the Mohammed cartoons in a class about free speech and censorship, and we republished it.
00:20:24.000We got some angry messages from some politically corrupt white liberal guilt types, and we got some angry messages from some angry religious zealots.
00:20:36.980But we received an outpouring of support from people across Canada, even actually a few messages from people in Denmark, where this controversy originated more than a decade ago.
00:20:49.360And so we were, you know, the Western Standard gives zero shits what the government thinks we can and should be publishing.
00:21:01.720But we really appreciate the support we've received so far for the Legal Defense Fund.
00:21:06.120If you haven't already, please go to westernstandardonline.com slash cbc, and you can make a donation, whatever you're able to right there.
00:21:16.720Corey, do you have any thoughts before we go?
00:21:21.760No, just appreciate people watching, and let's, you know, keep watching us as we push back on this.
00:21:27.920We're not going to be pushed around, and we won't tolerate other smaller outlets.
00:21:31.460It's been a diversity of view that modern times have given us.
00:21:49.760The irony of this is that in seeking to go after your publication, the CDC is inadvertently drawing more attention to what you've had to say.
00:22:06.380It is pointless, especially with the advent of social media, to try to prohibit another person's speech.
00:22:12.140You're just going to put them on a platform.
00:22:14.620Absolutely, and speaking of that, let's just, so the CBC ordered us to take the social media graphic down.
00:22:21.400Let's just put it right up for everyone to see, right there, big, beautiful.
00:22:27.200That is what the CBC is so afraid of, this little social media graphic that not that many people like.
00:22:32.080I think it got like nine retweets or something.
00:22:34.180You've got a couple of shares on Facebook.
00:22:35.440You know, it's admittedly actually not even our best quality work, but we, we're, you know, that is what all the fuss is about.
00:22:46.640And the CBC regularly uses the logos of others.
00:22:54.660They use, the CBC regularly uses, say, the Conservative Party of Canada's logo on some of its programs when they're talking about the Conservative Party.
00:23:03.120Yeah, you can't use a part, you can't use a, an organization's logo to pretend you are that organization.
00:23:09.140So, you know, if I put the CBC logo up in the corner here and try to, you know, try to pass us off as a CBC broadcast for some God knows what reason,
00:23:17.840that would potentially be a breach of trademark.
00:23:21.080But to use it in this context, in the context of pointing it out, making commentary about it,
00:23:28.720there's nothing even vaguely illegal about that.