In this week's episode, we're joined by Erica Barutti, Department Head of Applied Politics at Mackamay College and Senator-Elector of the United Conservative Party of Alberta, to talk all things Alberta. Topics covered include: - Alberta's dairy supply management system and its impact on the rest of Canada's dairy industry. - Should Alberta be allowed to set its own rules on dairy exports to the United States? - Is it time for Alberta to get out of the supply management agreement with the feds? And, of course, it's the birthday boy's day!
00:02:23.340Erica, maybe you can introduce that. We're looking at a provincial mention and approach with the odious old supply management system. What's going on there?
00:02:32.240Yeah. So if this is news to you, I'm going to break it down and possibly put in any as many puns as humanly possible.
00:02:39.260So as you mentioned, like Alberta's premier has been churning up headlines by hinting at pulling, I know you'd like that, pulling the province out of Canada's longstanding dairy supply management system.
00:02:52.920This comes with the looming U.S. tariffs.
00:02:56.620They turned up the heat and Alberta often feeling shortchanged on the dairy quotas that compared to Ontario and Quebec.
00:03:04.320And that's usually where we hear all of the supply management conversations coming from.
00:03:10.000And this idea is like going, having Alberta go out on its own and leaving the kitchen table to talk serious dinner debate.
00:03:19.240So while it's technically possible for Alberta to do this and set their own rules,
00:03:23.240and we've seen that in various different provinces on different files over the past century,
00:03:29.380it would face federal import controls and some frosty stares from other provinces if alberta
00:03:37.200pours its own glass of milk brace the legal economic and political ripples that will spill
00:03:43.080far beyond our borders i hope you guys like that one i put some effort into it today i just think
00:03:48.520you're milked i thought you milked it to death actually yeah well now that you've buttered up
00:03:52.760the issue nigel oh my gosh love it this is i mean this is one that kind of came out of the blue i0.82
00:03:58.800I mean, I've been on about supply management for a long time, but to be honest, I never really thought of taking the – because it's more of a federal authority sort of thing, but having a province push back on it, that's a change of pace.
00:04:10.860Well, I mean, I think as far as the Alberta push back on it is concerned, obviously, the situation being what it is between Alberta and Ottawa, anything that we've got, we're likely to bring forward.
00:04:25.120I mean, first of all, let me say quite clearly and unequivocally, I am not a fan of supply management.
00:04:32.660There is no excuse for making people pay more for dairy products.
00:04:38.320And if the government of Canada has to levy tariffs on American producers of 235%, which is a figure I found on the government's own website,
00:04:47.240235% tariffs in order to keep Canadian product competitive with American imports, I got to tell
00:04:55.400you, we're paying too much for milk, butter, eggs, and dairy products generally. Now, having said
00:05:03.100that, there is a time and a place, and I believe the time was 50 years ago when the place was New
00:05:09.820Zealand, where it was very helpful to have some kind of a mechanism that would bring stability
00:05:16.860to a dairy industry that was falling apart. So with supply management, the idea was that
00:05:28.160you had a ticket, you could produce so much, they knew what they were going to get, they knew what
00:05:33.440they needed, they set the price, and then they maintained it, and the family farm was safe.
00:05:39.360However, what people have forgotten is that in Quebec, which is really where this is centered, and there's Ontario as well, and a bit in Alberta, but in Quebec, it's not the family farm anymore.
00:05:52.320We're talking about gigantic corporations who are running dairies and have basically an easy time of it.
00:06:03.860Now, the farmer, the dairyman, he's not the guy who has the easy time.
00:06:09.380He's the fellow who gets up at five o'clock to go and milk the cows and get the product on the way.
00:06:14.720They have stability, but it is a large industry that is being supported,
00:06:21.760and that's why it has become so very difficult to do anything about it,
00:06:25.580because these guys have got money, they've got political clout, they're very well organized,
00:06:29.160to pick the best representatives in the public relations world.
00:07:06.780There's not a heck of a lot the province could do about that.
00:07:09.460But the quota system and some of those other aspects, is there room, Erica, there where then the provincial government could intervene and open up the market, perhaps?
00:07:19.420This is going to be me nerding out a little bit because it is, as I mentioned, possible for the province to do this.
00:07:24.300I learned while using looking at some new case studies, how provinces have made agreements with federal governments to change some of their policies.
00:07:31.760I learned that Manitoba had their own immigration and refugee settlement service agreement until 2012.
00:07:38.820And so it has been done. It could be done.
00:07:41.720The problem that Alberta is going to face on the political side is they have been driving this narrative for the last decade of get out of our lane that happened under Premier Kenny and under Premier Smith.
00:07:51.520And this is something that is federal jurisdiction.
00:07:55.440And so the hypocritical side of Alberta standing up for farmers, which to Nigel's point, I agree that it got out of hand with supply management.
00:08:04.660It is dairy cartel as opposed to the local farmer.
00:08:07.680I think Alberta should actually start with looking at an agreement with the feds to give the feds the cop out of not having to piss off Ontario and mostly Quebec and give Alberta maybe its own agreement.
00:08:20.980but I think them kind of going rogue is going to be very hypocritical of this government for
00:08:26.240them telling the feds to get out of their lane. So yes, it's possible. Yes, there is precedence
00:08:31.080for it on our national stage, but they've also got a balance. Like this is the first time in
00:08:36.220years that we've seen all of the premiers and the prime minister actually collectively working.
00:08:43.120Is that Alberta throwing a wrench in this? And I know we have another topic we're going to talk
00:08:47.260about that could impact that on pipelines and Indigenous negotiations. But like, is Alberta
00:08:55.000stirring the pot for the right reason right now? And is it also talking from two sides of their
00:09:01.320mouth? Is a political dance they're going to have to be very conscious of? Yeah, well, I mean, I'm
00:09:06.360more inclined, though, that's my nature of the Alberta to Ottawa elbows up approach and to hell
00:09:10.260what they think. And, you know, let's do some unilateral things. I mean, some of the aspects
00:09:14.240of all people, Andrew Cohen wrote a fantastic piece on it today. Well, he's written many
00:09:18.200fantastic pieces. It's just sometimes his attitude drives me nuts. But what he also pointed out,
00:09:23.380those quotas, I mean, they've created a commodity out of the quotas. For one cow, a quota now in
00:09:29.060Quebec is worth $25,000. In Western Canada, it's worth twice that. It's yet another area where
00:09:35.140there's a lot of inequity when it comes to the treatment across the country. Maybe shaking that
00:09:41.780tree can make them address that at least. I think actually you need to put that on your Facebook
00:09:46.960page and then forward it to Andrew Coyne and, you know, see if he thanks you or whether he kind of
00:09:52.760says, well, Corey Morgan, who's, you know, he rarely addresses me once in a while on X. We have
00:10:00.140the odd exchange, but it rarely ends pleasantly. No, do you know, to Erica's point there, I do.
00:10:05.220Sorry, Erica, go ahead. No, no, you go, you go, you go. All right, I'll just address your point
00:10:09.140there that you say it's possibly a bad form.
00:12:57.980Like these are, the surge of prices is not accessible now.
00:13:03.200I grew up buying everything from Hutterite.
00:13:04.920So I, you know, still try and do that local connection and like okay to pay more.
00:13:10.280But you're right, like going from supermarket and those are where they have to, as a retailer, not decide on price because they need to make margins as well.
00:13:19.400So it's being set. You're right at the federal level. And that is a challenge. It's hurting our industry.
00:13:24.040So, again, I think that the affordability piece is a political position that the premier can take.
00:13:30.020Again, how she negotiates that with Ottawa, I caution on the one side, I'm not saying it's not the fight to pick.
00:13:36.000I'm not saying that Alberta should have its own deal, just like we saw every province do with daycare to fit what works best.
00:13:44.580This is a problem with the federal government, but I think that Alberta just has to be conscious of how they navigate this and take it more behind closed doors and work out their own deal.
00:13:54.980Because you're right, like the prices are noticeable by families.
00:13:58.540I mean, if you have kids in your life that drink a copious amount of milk and, you know, you're making big breakfasts on the weekends using the products that you're talking about, you do notice it.
00:14:10.300I mean, I can't remember the last time I didn't order one of those giant cartons from Costco or buy those for eggs because it's the only thing that makes somewhat sense.
00:14:20.000So, yeah, I think it's that not the what is the issue, but the how Alberta navigates it that I would caution as political concern.
00:14:29.980Yeah. You know, I remember that guy down in, was it Medicine Hat or Lethbridge for the chickens?
00:14:35.000Yes, he got arrested for selling eggs because you're not allowed to have more than 300 chickens.
00:14:41.160That'll segue well into something we're talking about later, about the degree of where the government wants to crack down with justice and where they don't.
00:14:47.160But I mean, just in closing out, I mean, it's a frustrating system.
00:14:50.740I guess the discussion is what Smith or if Smith should do anything.
00:14:53.580But just I'll leave off with that final thing to let people know about this system.
00:14:57.560We had 140,000 dairy farms when supply management came in.
00:15:00.920Now we have 9,000 and most of them are in Quebec, Ontario.
00:15:04.800So if the intent was to protect the family farm, it failed terribly.
00:16:40.840He spoke well of Trump, which, of course, is anathema to, you know, the refined sensibilities in Canadian government circles, perhaps for good reason at the moment, but by and large, you know, he doesn't go for critical theory.
00:16:58.000He's against the idea of the LGBT sexual minorities having special privileges, but he's a singer, and he wanted to come up to Canada, and he has come up to Canada, in fact, and has got a two-week tour.
00:17:16.220He'll be in your town, Erica, in about a week's time.
00:17:19.980Anyway, name is Sean Foyt, F-E-U-C-H-T, Sean Foyt.
00:17:26.220And his opening was going to be at a Parks Canada site in Halifax.
00:17:32.580And what happened was that people objected, say, not to the fact that he was a Christian evangelist per se,
00:17:42.800but that his views did not reflect the core values of Parks Canada of inclusion and a safe place and so forth.
00:19:23.400I mean, you either have all or nothing.
00:19:24.840I mean, you can't pretend it's not politicized.
00:19:26.680I'm sure if you had good old Jan Arden up there pissing and moaning, she'd be up and making her political views on the stage and nobody would say a peep.1.00
00:19:34.320You know, do we have public venues or not?
00:19:38.400I mean, I'm not a big fan of Christian rock, those sorts of things.
00:20:03.520Like, I'm just, who in Parks Canada has nothing to do that they're surveying where a religious group is playing concerts?
00:20:13.080Like, obviously, you could be doing more things like reviewing forestry and wildfire management instead of looking at who's performing where.
00:20:22.920So, yeah, I think you guys are saying the exact same thing I am that, OK, like, either make it for everyone or not.
00:20:30.760Listen, I just Googled it when you guys were saying like Jan Arden is actually performing at the Badlands Amphitheater in Drumheller, which is part of the Alberta Badlands.
00:20:38.760So if that's okay, why, which I believe is provincial, but either way, like the province
00:20:44.400of Alberta is not saying, oh, we don't like your values and beliefs.
00:20:47.880Also, who the hell knows what the values and beliefs and brand of the national parks is
00:20:53.860and how does it not relate to a organization that is very community and collaborative focused
00:26:35.220She shut down a cadet camp that had been operating north of Banff for like 40 years.
00:26:39.880Every year they would come out, they'd do rock climbing and things like that, because it's a good environment for it.
00:26:44.180And, of course, being typical tequila Sheila, it was mostly beaking on about how the militarization and such shouldn't be encouraged and other things.
00:26:52.300So it wasn't just a matter of an inappropriate venue.
00:26:54.220She just felt that the political messaging was incorrect.
00:27:37.660Mrs. Copps decided that that was much too sophisticated and ordered it.
00:27:43.900returned to the natural state with native plants such as the Icelandic poppy. And now what you see
00:27:53.680when you go out there is the weed bed infested by gophers and ravens pecking at them. It's really
00:28:00.920sad how that was destroyed. That's on Mrs. Copps's town. They've micromanaged the parks in some
00:28:07.000terrible ways with personal agendas and it hasn't stopped unfortunately. Well let's get on with
00:28:11.700Personal agendas, vendettas, the longest mischief trial in Canadian history has reached its final phase now with sentencing.
00:28:21.980I think nobody was shocked that they found Tamara Leach and Chris Barber guilty,
00:28:26.100but now we're at what would be the conclusion of this, I guess, with a sentence.
00:28:30.440Well, you know, this is sort of over tight with what we were speaking about just a moment ago
00:28:34.640about how the government is trying to manage people rather than govern.
00:28:39.240And, yeah, the sentencing hearing for Tamara Leach and Chris Barber got started earlier today.
00:28:43.820And I'm going to say that how their case turns out is going to be one of those situations where in the rearview mirror, everything you need to know about who runs Canada and how it is run, we'll be there to see.
00:28:57.960So quick rundown. Let's just look back.
00:29:00.860A few months ago, Leach and Barber were found guilty of mischief on charges arising from their activities at the time of the convoy in 2022.
00:29:07.96022. And the crown is seeking a prison sentence of seven years
00:29:12.100for a leech and eight years for Barbara. Now this is for mischief.
00:29:16.340You know, mischief is kicking over outhouses and causing a ruckus
00:29:20.200in the back alley at midnight. But they
00:29:24.000charge them for mischief, and I guess the law permits sentences of
00:29:28.020this size. And Barbara was also convicted0.65
00:29:32.080of counseling others to disobey a court order, which is why
00:29:35.100while they're looking for a higher sentence from him.
00:29:38.320This, of course, is a little outrageous
00:29:39.540when you actually know and feel the issue.
00:32:13.580Yeah, I hope you're correct in that sense.
00:32:15.600And I suspect the sentence will be similar in that.
00:32:17.600I mean, they've been found guilty. That portion's done. The hearings were held. Maybe there'll be an appeal. Who knows? But now it's what will be the appropriate punishment. Both of them did, again, an excessive amount of time pre-court, you know, without bail for a mischief charge. And that tends to be considered triple time served.
00:32:38.240I think a judge could come in and say, you know, don't do it again.
00:33:01.820So the Crown considers that sort of crime to be on par with what Leach and Barber did.
00:33:07.760I mean, I understand the Crown can ask for whatever they like. It's up to the judge in the end. But that says a lot about how they're viewing this particular offense versus, you know, some of the stuff I think that is almost universally people could say is horrible and deserves the full extent of the law.
00:33:25.340Now, the other part is, is this, they want to make an example, but what a harsher sentence
00:33:31.980be preventative. Does it look like Barbara or Leach are going to start another convoy? Does
00:33:35.960it look like they're at risk of putting the public at risk any longer? I haven't seen any indication
00:33:40.240of that. Erica, I would think the judge would take those things into account. Again, I mean,
00:33:45.060he's found them guilty, but I don't think you'll be inspired to give them an excessive
00:33:50.280incarceration or anything? Well, I would hope not. I think the challenge we're facing right now
00:33:56.180is that this is political and this is, you know, I haven't been tracking, unfortunately,
00:34:01.940but the appointment of the judges is federal. And so we've seen a big surgence of the judicial
00:34:09.380being influenced by appointments by the federal government over the last decade, even the Supreme
00:34:14.320Court, because Harper hadn't filled many of those vacancies. And so we're in a situation where the
00:34:19.020judicial system I think is trying to set an example by these individuals but I mean if you're
00:34:24.140comparing and contrasting their crime which they've already been found guilty of especially
00:34:30.040on the mischief file it's like well what happened to all those people that ruined statues and
00:34:35.180violated public property and decided to light churches on fire like things like that what is
00:34:41.800their punishment and if it's not equal to what we're seeing from Barber and Lynch like why
00:34:48.880is that the case? And how are the values and beliefs being penetrated to our judicial system?
00:34:53.680So that's my first concern. The second part is kind of coming back to what I was talking about
00:34:59.220with Parks Canada. It's like, does the judicial system not realize the huge impact we have on
00:35:05.820human trafficking right now or domestic abuse? I mean, every day, even on LinkedIn, I'm seeing
00:35:11.220stories of women across Canada being killed because of the fact that we don't have harsh
00:35:17.900punishment for those dealing with domestic violence. And we don't have the right services
00:35:23.320to protect those women and children and men in some cases, or even elder abuse, right? Like,
00:35:28.540I think that this is one where it's just so political that my job will not drop if this
00:35:33.940sentence is higher than we think it should be. But that is completely inappropriate and completely,
00:35:39.700you know, unfounded that it's comparing these to cases that are far like the one you use that are
00:35:47.860far more consequential to society. Like, I don't think they're going to get out and be the first
00:35:54.600thing they're going to do is go start another protester convoy. Like, I think they've learned
00:35:59.060their lesson. They've served copious amounts of time. And hopefully that gets taken into
00:36:03.820consideration. But I wouldn't be surprised if this was to politicize and make an example out
00:36:11.160of these individuals. So we'll see what happens. I unfortunately don't have confidence in the
00:36:17.400the judicial process, given the penetration by the government and political values being jammed
00:36:23.380down their throats. So hopefully this judge has a better conscience than the liberal government.
00:36:29.360You know, you brought that to the right point in the discussion, Erica. You're talking about
00:36:37.080the politicization of the judiciary. I had the papers put in my hands a few years ago about
00:36:43.980people who wanted to be judges i always thought that you know to be a judge somebody tapped you
00:36:48.540on the shoulder and said you know you you fit but no you just put your you put an application in if
00:36:55.420you're qualified at all and so the what's on the qualification form very interesting it's it's a
00:37:02.940it's a very woke agenda that they are uh so they're they're looking for a certain type of
00:37:08.540person who thinks a certain type of way and neither corey nor i would qualify and it wouldn't purely
00:37:13.980be on our lack of uh i might from uh uh the general right check but then you do a background
00:37:20.380check on me and they probably i don't uh that's your next stop on your regiment point being
00:37:30.460it's probably similar to the senate application from prime minister i think um but anyway so
00:37:36.860that's so the system is stacked but it harks back to what we were talking about a little earlier
00:37:42.540about the way that the government is trying to influence canadians who they are what they think
00:37:47.340what they can do and the convoy was a challenge to that whole way of thinking so they are
00:37:56.300absolutely going to um focus their hatred well that's that's let's not beat around the bush
00:38:34.500Well, and just to look from, you know, to close it off, like from political motive, if that's indeed the thing, I would think politically, the liberals, especially with a new prime minister, just want to put this one to bed.
00:38:44.100It's been years, you know, give them a suspended sentence, get it off the docket and stop people from hearing about it.
00:38:50.840But if they give them time in federal prison, they're going to reignite this and they're going to martyr them.
00:38:56.660And it's not going to have the effect of calming the protests.
00:39:01.280And I just think if the judge is looking from that perspective, too, everybody's just kind of better off by getting this thing finished and into the history books rather than a current problem.
00:39:11.540But we'll see. Nothing surprises in this country anymore. I wouldn't bet money on any of the outcomes.
00:39:16.380No, I think that that is a really good point, Corey, though, on the Balance Act that Carney's administration now has to look at because he doesn't wear any of those things.
00:39:24.960the emergency act and the usage upon that has been criticized. And so, yeah, he, I would almost
00:39:31.460think it would be in the prime minister's best interest, not obviously calling the judge, but
00:39:35.560in, in the, the fact that this sets a tone that, um, he's going to have to carry this forward.
00:39:41.720And like you said, it might spark up additional protests, which would be, I think he'd handled
00:39:47.640maybe very differently than Trudeau. And so, yeah, it's probably a dumpster fire he doesn't
00:39:52.300want to deal with. So the best tactic for everyone would just to be, you know, recognize what
00:39:57.800happened, they are already guilty, give them a minimal sentence, and move on, because we can't
00:40:02.720afford in this time of desire for unity, to have more divisive things, especially between the West
00:40:09.240and the East. You know, Erica, it's interesting what you the way you put that, that there will
00:40:16.020never be a phone call between a politician and a judge on this matter. Not because that would be
00:40:23.280illegal, but because there is no necessity. Everybody around government understands what
00:40:31.780is necessary. If they didn't understand, they wouldn't have been hired. So any so-called
00:40:40.280arm's length agency that you care to think of. That's the way it goes. So between that and a
00:40:48.000thoughtful editorial in the Globe and Mail or something, they get the word around to each other
00:40:54.980what's needed. We had a few big issues to hit today, so we're really running the clock. So we
00:41:00.560have to hit her quick here with this. First Nations, unsurprisingly, in BC are opposed to
00:41:07.240pipeline coming through. Is there anything they ever supported?
00:41:10.040Well, yeah, more land ceded to them for their exclusive administration. But the story we're
00:41:19.000talking about here, Erica, is one that came out yesterday where the coastal First Nations in
00:41:25.160British Columbia sent a strongly worded open letter to Mark Carney, prime minister, asking
00:41:31.880him to reject the new pipeline proposal that is being advanced by Premier Smith. It's the northern
00:41:38.920route. And it's the one that David Eby said, well, she doesn't have a sponsor and she doesn't have a0.98
00:41:46.440there's no project. So, well, the Indians think that there's a project and they've asked Mr.
00:41:51.720Carney to deep sex it. Now, I would personally, because I'm old and cynical, interpret that as
00:41:59.560just the sort of first move in the negotiations to see where this thing is going to land
00:42:03.960and who gets paid what for for doing it but that's the story so um erica you know about pipelines
00:42:13.720i well i know um how much the federal government and the indigenous groups can get in the way of
00:42:19.480one um i think that you know there was a lot of people that have looked to carney and his building
00:42:25.880Canada act as a symbol of unity and looking at actually making Canada an economic and energy
00:42:36.360superpower. The key, and I think you've talked about this on the show, I know I've talked about
00:42:41.520with you folks before, the biggest thing is the stakeholder of the Indigenous pathways. Now,
00:42:46.140correct me if I'm wrong, but there is already corridors set up for a pipeline like this,
00:42:51.320And it wouldn't actually be completely unfeasible to run another pipeline along the transportation corridor and other pipelines that exist for an LNG pipeline.
00:43:04.640So to me, it's kind of a weak argument by this Indigenous group on the why, because it's already a pathway there.
00:43:12.740But this is going to be a big symbol of Carney's leadership.
00:43:16.440And if he's serious about this, because it's always been identified that the hardest stakeholder and hardest hurdle on this Building Canada's act is the Indigenous groups and those types of consultations.
00:43:27.720So I don't know if they're asking for a full stop, if they're asking for more funds, guaranteed income or employment.
00:43:35.140Like these are the types of negotiations I think would come from Indigenous partners that actually want to inject revenue and sustainability into their communities, especially in this case.
00:43:48.580So, again, we'll see how Kearney navigates this, but this is going to be a hurdle that we see on every one of those pipeline projects that are coming down the road.
00:43:57.600Well, until a federal leader has the courage to define the difference between consent and consulting, we're not going to get anything done.
00:44:05.140So, I mean, that's just the reality. Somebody's got to put a foot down eventually because they're, you know, implying that we need consent. And technically we don't. The Supreme Court's ruled on that many times, actually.
00:44:15.520Yeah, but I'm I'm OK. So I was going to say, like, I don't know, you know, the appetite in B.C.
00:44:24.980I suspect there's a more appetite in Alberta to push back on this consent versus consultation.
00:44:34.020Do you think that this is like the DOA of these projects, Corey or Nigel?
00:44:41.240If somebody doesn't make a stand on that portion, and they've got the Supreme Court behind them.
00:44:47.180I wrote a recent column on that, breaking it down.
00:44:49.080There's been multiple rulings, but no politician dares to say it.
00:45:06.280And I wouldn't want to be the politician to have to step into that mire.
00:45:08.780But eventually somebody's going to have to.
00:45:10.360All right, well, we're on to the parting shots, yes.
00:45:15.140Oh, gosh, we're as disappointed as I was with the First Minister's meeting in Muskoka there.
00:45:21.720You know, the big report this morning was Doug Ford coming out and saying what a nice, humble man Mr. Carney was, you know, all sorts of that sort of stuff.
00:45:29.940And what I was actually hoping for from it was some idea of what our leaders are going to do about electric vehicles, about crime, immigration, overtaxation, getting some infrastructure built.