00:02:08.820Oh, you're very welcome. So what's going on out there? And like, is this even true?
00:02:15.420Yes, this is true. This story was brought to my attention by an organization called BC Politics Watch.
00:02:22.240They've been doing excellent work bringing attention to these issues to local and provincial journalists.
00:02:28.980And it was recently covered by former BC conservative candidate Caroline Elliott with the National Post.
00:02:34.720so carolyn elliott i think she came second by a very very close margin so we're talking about
00:02:42.660somebody here who is not a marginal person likely reporting on this and and who the bc politics did
00:02:51.700you call them bc bc politics watch it seems to be a consortium of individuals who have been doing
00:02:58.520great work bringing attention to a lot of these issues specifically bringing it to the attention
00:03:03.840of journalists and reporters doing the yeoman's work, so to speak, freedom of information requests,
00:03:10.300attending city hall proceedings, and they've been following this closely.
00:03:15.120So let's talk about these properties. Let's talk about the downtown Victoria ones. I mean,
00:03:19.800many people are familiar with Victoria. Starting us from the legislature, what are we handing over?
00:03:27.780well it looks like there's three parcels of land as i understand it um so there's
00:03:33.940we were actually just discussing this off air 100 or sorry 1112 wharf street there's another
00:03:41.940property um 613 slash 615 pandora which is an old town building the province has already handed over
00:03:49.860and then 430 menzi street which sits in james bay directly across from the parliament buildings
00:03:55.400okay now what's let's start with the parliament building one what's there right now
00:04:01.420i believe it's a i think it's a parking lot it's a parking lot and then the one on the one opposite
00:04:08.300bastion square for those who might not know victoria quite so well bastion square is where
00:04:14.340the bc maritime museum was and it's in a pleasant open space looks out onto the harbor across a
00:04:21.700parking lot so again i think they've been given a parking lot and then on pandora street can you
00:04:29.060describe that building uh well pandora street as you were noting earlier uh used to be a beautiful
00:04:34.600area of victoria and uh it's seen better times uh where it currently is i was just looking it up on
00:04:41.200google maps um if i'm not mistaken i think that there was a large homeless encampment there and
00:04:45.980it looks like that might also be a parking lot but again it would probably be somebody who is
00:04:52.280in victoria would have a better idea i'm not as familiar with the location as i should be
00:04:56.360well i think pandora street or pandora avenue was one long uh homeless encampment there for a while
00:05:03.220the last time i was there it was depressing to drive through probably even more depressing to
00:05:08.320live there but anyway so what we have done we have apparently we we the the colonial occupiers
00:05:15.880have returned to the first nations three parking lots now thing is are there any restrictions on
00:05:27.800what they can do uh are they just going to be in park with uh you know with an indigenous
00:05:35.280this over, Tom? Well, there's a package that was presented by the provincial government with
00:05:41.420regards to this issue. There's actually six overlapping land claims in the area around the
00:05:47.120Victoria Harbour. And in the package, it says that if this land were to be transferred over in fee
00:05:52.700simple as treaty land, that they would essentially have self-governance rights and local municipal
00:05:58.300bylaws would not apply. So it sounds like they would be fairly unrestricted in terms of what
00:06:02.480they wanted to do with the parcels so they could in fact not saying they would maybe they want it
00:06:10.340for a cultural center but they could put up um quite a high condominium block and make a lot
00:06:17.380of money off especially off that one looking out over the harbor oh absolutely nothing would stop
00:06:24.100them and in fact they would have so much autonomy over the area that it's not even guaranteed that
00:06:28.640there would be public access. In fact, one of the things that they said in the package was that
00:06:34.340this could take some getting used to, depending on what the Songhees would intend to do with the
00:06:39.640area. Who said it might take some getting used to? I'll have to find it here in the package,
00:06:48.780forgive me. There's a lot of information here. This is quite a story. Who said that?
00:06:56.580So, well, okay, to spare the listeners, the thing is, the government of British Columbia, through some authorized mouthpiece, has said, this is going to take some getting used to.
00:07:09.320Another way of saying that is, you may not like what's coming.
00:12:04.840Well, the duty to consult is, again, fairly nebulous.
00:12:09.380So there was a case recently with the KSM gold mining project up north where the B.C. government had done extensive consultation with the Talton nation on that project.
00:12:19.180But then another nation, which had an overlapping land claim, this Assault Ski Nix Ha Nation, maybe mispronouncing that, they challenged it and said that they were not properly consulted.
00:12:31.220Again, very interesting, that First Nation, not recognized by the federal government under the Indian Act, but the duty to consult still held up.
00:12:39.420And they have actually punted the whole project back to its environmental assessment stage.
00:12:44.380Is this a case where we have two different First Nations peoples claiming the same piece of property?0.99
00:12:52.340That's correct. So I mentioned earlier that 95% of the province is what you would call legally unceded.0.99
00:12:57.940There are so many overlapping land claims, Nigel, that 120% of BC's land base is currently subject to one land claim or two due to the overabundance of overlapping claims.
00:13:09.460This is also true in the area of Victoria that we were speaking about earlier.
00:13:12.840there are six land claims there. There's one area in New Westminster where I think there are as many
00:13:17.320as 15 overlapping land claims. So we have this going on. We had a court decision last year which
00:13:24.680basically said the indigenous people's own Richmond, or parts of it. 600 acres.
00:13:34.440You have the Haida Gwaii, you have, tell us about Indian, what's it, IPAC, Indian protected,
00:13:46.680indigenous protected and conservation areas. What are they?
00:13:53.480So the indigenous consultation and protected areas, you were actually bringing that to my
00:13:58.280attention earlier um it's i wanted to make you look good come on it's part of the well i mean
00:14:04.520it seems like i i think that that all runs downstream from the that the flawed theory that
00:14:11.000indigenous people are stewards of the land and so it would be more environmentally friendly
00:14:17.080if we provided them with more autonomy and self-determination and the amount of area that's
00:14:22.920being transferred in that sense is growing exponentially as you noted
00:14:26.940earlier. So, okay, we're leaving the listener a little behind here. So what
00:14:34.320we're talking about is the indigenous protected and conserved area that comes
00:14:41.620under the federal mandate from Environment Canada in which they set
00:14:48.800off various areas and tell the local indigenous people here you have stewardship of this land.
00:14:58.480It will be up to you whether any development ever takes place.
00:15:03.520And I believe that those who want to can set terms of access.
00:15:08.480And there's quite a lot of British Columbia that is now falling to this.
00:15:14.320Way up north, up there, there's one Indian band that's laying claim to some astonishing. Let me
00:15:23.920just see if I can find it quickly. Is that the Talton Nation, Nigel? Yes.
00:15:28.640Yeah, so I think it's 11 percent of the province's land mass is what they're claiming.
00:15:34.160Yes, that's right. They're getting federal government support
00:15:43.600Now, this is from a document I wrote seven years ago for another purpose, but in that year, Catherine McKenna was the Environment Minister, and she announced a $3.9 million grant to the Taltan central government to establish a protected and conserved area within their 90,000 square kilometer traditional area.
00:16:10.800So I don't know that it was necessarily going to be the entire 90,000 square kilometers, but there is another one, the nearby Tal Tan, who is more ambitious.
00:16:23.240And if you actually take a tally of all of these, you're starting to actually move into double digits in terms of land area taken up by various forms of indigenous ownership or control.
00:16:43.600and while it is very easy for people who think this is a wrong direction0.97
00:16:50.640to look at david eby the premier of british columbia and say the man is a dreamy fool0.82
00:16:56.860he's just got some indigenous fascination and he wants to give the whole province back to the0.90
00:17:01.420the uh back to the indians that would be one thing but i actually think that there's rather
00:17:08.860more going on here than what's whizzing around in David Eby's head. For one thing, the evidence
00:17:17.900of my own researches is that the federal government is involved in this at every level
00:17:23.840through the Ministry of the Environment, and they have their agenda too, which is to set aside
00:19:18.120And, of course, UNDRIP is a United Nations thing.
00:19:21.140So just how big does this picture get?
00:19:25.540Well, the interesting thing about UNDRIP, and I think one of the reasons that it was passed unanimously, is that there are varying perspectives on what it could mean.
00:19:35.680We spoke about the Talton Nation earlier, and I think that this is an interesting argument in defense of DRIPA and UNDRIP, which is the core tenant of DRIPA is self-determination and autonomy.
00:19:47.280mean. And because we think of Indigenous people sometimes being the stewards of the land, which
00:19:52.380again is kind of ludicrous, people tend to think of Indigenous self-determination as the right to
00:19:58.120say no. We also typically associate Indigenous people with stopping, you know, forestry projects
00:20:04.280or mining projects or a pipeline. But in a sense, I've heard the argument made, including from folks
00:20:10.720in the Talton Nation and others in the legislature, that DRIPA also gives these groups the right to
00:20:15.360say yes and so that's an interesting perspective right i mean it's it's ironic to me that david
00:20:22.200eby has such a thorn in his side about the alberta independence movement when he's one of the
00:20:27.540largest proponents of drippa which holds self-determination and autonomy as its core value
00:20:33.780it's it's ironic to say the least alex i hope you i hope you write about that one of these days
00:20:41.580That's a beautiful irony, and very few people are aware of it.
00:20:44.940So it's okay to be for self-determination if you're indigenous,
00:20:50.120but if you're, you know, one of us, stay part of Canada.
00:20:57.040Well, and when you think about it, the right for an indigenous group
00:21:00.220and to say yes with regards to industrial or private projects
00:21:05.340on their traditional territory could unlock significant economic potential for BC.
00:21:09.940So you can really look at DRIPA in two different lenses, right?
00:21:13.380I mean, if it's the right to say no, then everything can come to a screeching halt.
00:21:16.740But if it's the right to say yes, then it may open up doors to opportunities that we didn't previously have.
00:21:23.460Alex, I think you have a heart for this story, and it's only really just coming to light.