In this episode, I speak with David Boudouille Lefebvre, who is the Director of Public Affairs at Bordeleau Public Affairs. He talks about the possibility of Quebec running out of power and the options they have at their disposal.
00:00:21.840And it's in regards to a recent piece, you know, you put out, was posted on your site there about Quebec potentially running out of energy.
00:00:30.220I mean, we've always seen Quebec as a powerhouse of hydroelectric electricity, and it seemed like it was almost an unlimited resource.
00:00:37.060But as you describe, it sounds like in reality, they could be quite vulnerable there right now.
00:00:41.740Yes, definitely. Interesting that you bring that up, because part of our Quebec Now newsletter is to instruct and also educate people from across the country about, you know, the main issues about Quebec.
00:00:53.980And sometimes, you know, you find some shifts in the issues in Quebec that's interesting for other people, and this is definitely one.
00:01:00.480You know, the news that Hydro-Quebec is thinking about refusing some industrial project because they will lack the ability to supply them is something that actually was quite surprising to a lot of Quebecers and definitely of interest to English Canada, you know, as the province moves forward.
00:01:18.920And, you know, in fact, it's a little bit of a good news because you have a lot of industrial projects that want to develop in Quebec, but you would never have imagined that they could be short of power.
00:01:27.740Well, yeah, and in power, I mean, it's essential for, well, the cost of living for your citizenry or any expansion of a commercial base.
00:01:36.760I mean, if your businesses can't get a steady or affordable supply of power, they're not going to locate there.
00:01:42.200No, exactly. And, you know, Quebec has not always had and still does not have the most favorable, I would say, corporate tax system to bring some companies in.
00:01:51.180Like you would have Florida and Texas, for example, that would have very favorable taxation system to bring people in.
00:01:56.680And Quebec used to be quite flush with labor, you know, but now not so much so, you know, with an unemployment rate under 4%.
00:02:05.180You know, Ontario still has a lot of workers that they can offer at that reasonable price to businesses.
00:02:11.020But Quebec's advantage has really always been on the hydroelectricity side, that they were able to offer very good rates to foreign companies and to people that wanted to do business,
00:02:20.600including domestic companies from Quebec and companies from Canada.
00:02:24.540But right now, what's in jeopardy is, you know, as the supply dwindles compared to what the demand is, well, something will have to give.
00:02:32.480Either people will not be able to get the power or that electric power will be more expensive,
00:02:38.540which is what we think that Quebec will have, whether it really wants it or not, to turn towards other sources of energy to put in its mix.
00:02:48.640Because even if they want to build the hydroelectricity, then that's going to take 8 to 15 years.
00:02:53.680Yeah, well, and something that's been a frustration for us who are more accustomed out here in Alberta with hydrocarbon-based energy sources is the knowledge.
00:03:02.460And it was some Alberta-based companies were kind of investing, looking at there's some significant natural gas fields in Quebec
00:03:08.180that could provide a ready amount of power in relatively short order, at least not the 8 to 10 years that it would take for a hydroelectric project.
00:03:15.740But Quebec has now banned any more further development of any of those resources in the province anymore.
00:03:20.140So it sort of frustrates when perhaps you're approaching an energy shortage, yet you're shutting down alternative forms of energy before they even get started.
00:03:28.500Definitely, and I completely understand your point.
00:03:31.300And you see Quebec has included in its mix of, you know, supply of energy over the last few years, you know, windmills, solar, biomass, biogas.
00:03:42.080But there will come a point where just the amount of megawatts or petajoules, whatever you want to call them,
00:03:48.540you will need at least some energy transition in the meantime while you build the dams and you try to bring more hydroelectricity to the grid.
00:03:56.840And definitely the natural gas reserves is someplace where I think Quebec would have an interest going to.
00:04:04.000We'll see what happens with the current government and where they want to move in.
00:04:06.720But definitely there's a need for Quebec to bring more kind of energy in the mix.
00:04:12.300A little bit like Alberta has also done so.
00:04:14.720Alberta was very, very heavy in hydrocarbon.
00:04:17.200But now you start to have some windmill, you start to have different projects.
00:04:20.560We understand that the Quebec culture regarding energy is much different than Alberta's or even Atlantic Canada or Ontario.
00:04:27.020But more and more jurisdictions are getting to the point where they need to have more safety of supply, bring more kind of different energy sources in the mix.
00:04:36.640And we think Quebec is something that they will be most probably willing to explore over the next few months or years,
00:04:42.180if only because, you know, they will want the jobs and they will want the economy growth that comes from companies that want to be established in Quebec and work.
00:04:49.860Yeah, well, I mean, a sense of pragmatism, you know, eventually comes in when you realize that your economy might be suffering for the lack of diversity.
00:04:57.380Something I didn't see mentioned was nuclear.
00:05:02.120There's the modular nuclear plants that are being developed or even conventional ones that can do reactors.
00:05:07.560Has there been any consideration of expanding any of that in Quebec?
00:05:11.240Good question, especially as I think Doug Ford in Ontario has been adamant that, you know, he would like to bring, you know, to continue to bring nuclear power in the mix.
00:05:21.900Quebec basically only ever had, I think, one or two nuclear plants in the Gentilly region.
00:05:26.900They've been shut down a few years ago, not multiple.
00:05:31.100So I think in terms of nuclear energy, the curve to bring it back in the mix would be very, very steep for Quebec.
00:05:38.660It would require investment, a lot of people to work on the file and probably also, you know, Quebec basically lost its expertise in nuclear when those plants shut down.
00:05:49.940So I would say, and I would say the volume that you would need to bring to make a difference, definitely not as interesting as renewables and what, you know, natural gas could be.
00:05:59.900Yeah, well, and as you note in your piece is with the decarbonization, I mean, it only stands to reason then if people are moving to electric vehicles, electric heating, items like that, it's going to draw more power from the grid.
00:06:19.160As you said, 8 to 15 years before a dam can come on, you try to propose some solutions, but what will it take to perhaps shorten those timelines?
00:06:27.080Lobbying to the government, a change in attitude?
00:06:30.740How can they avoid, you know, perhaps running into a wall of loss of energy security?
00:06:35.000Well, one of the first things they could do, so maybe you signed the news that Quebec has contracted, you know, a very heavy electricity delivery contract to the United States, mainly to the state of New York.
00:06:48.020Quebec is also working with Maine and Massachusetts to get a line to be able to supply parts of Boston.
00:06:54.020I think probably some of those projects will have to be re-evaluated, especially as they would reduce supply and increase, you know, even more pressure on the grid.
00:07:03.560I think Quebec needs to accelerate development of other sources of energy.
00:07:08.980Not, I think, yes, as a transition toward building more dams, but also being able to, you know, to give a solution to people over the next three to five years.
00:07:18.820And in terms of energy, three to five years is literally tomorrow morning.
00:07:22.480And the other thing that the government will need to do is continue to put forward and promote programs into energy efficiency.
00:07:29.500But these are a double-edged sword because usually those programs, you put energy efficiency on the same level of decarbonation.
00:07:37.540Yes, but if you're more efficient, whether you use diesel or heavy fuels, well, then you will use the electricity.
00:07:44.100So in a way, it is a quagmire and you need to reduce your energy dependency only on hydro.
00:07:50.960And at the same time, you need to make sure that new projects are more efficient.
00:07:54.720So definitely Quebec has quite a challenge on its hands that even just a few years ago, there's not many people that saw it coming.
00:08:02.560Well, yeah, and as you said, Quebec has made perhaps commitments to New England area or New York for providing electrical services.
00:08:10.520But if they reevaluate or back out on those deals, that could come with some serious repercussions as well.
00:08:16.160I mean, those states have been dependent and expecting that power source to be coming on stream, right?
00:08:20.920Yeah, I think the one with the state of New York, honestly, it's something that you cannot really get out with for the reason that you say that, you know, there will be some very, very heavy penalties.
00:08:30.660But, you know, should they reconsider the one that they plan to do with Massachusetts?
00:08:35.900Should they try to renegotiate the rates with other smaller export programs and projects that they have with the U.S.?
00:08:42.340Definitely, I think this should be this should be on the table because otherwise, politically, there will be a price to pay if if I do Quebec needs to, I would say, increase or jack up the prices, especially for residential customers.
00:08:55.780So that that's going to be an interesting topic. And it is something that from an energy perspective, I think that should be that should be monitored because it could it could redefine some some of the, you know, energy boundaries in the country.
00:09:09.620And definitely, you know, Quebec has felt felt very safe with IDRO for decades. You know, they felt, well, we don't really need to engage into those big and large energy affordability and supply discussions.
00:09:22.280Well, I think it's about time that we have the debate here also. And I think this this situation will bring the debate, whether people want to have it or not.
00:09:31.120Well, the debates will always come in no matter how long you put them off. It's just a matter of what they're going to be on your terms by the time they get to you.
00:09:37.900So I guess you're sort of started sounding the alarm early on this. I mean, there's still time to start perhaps changing some attitudes and direction before it potentially becomes a crisis.
00:09:46.000Yes, no, no, exactly. And also, you know, both from a Quebec standpoint and also from a Canada standpoint, there's also the question that you always want to maintain your good reputation in front of foreign investors, financial markets.
00:10:01.760And, you know, usually investors and markets don't like uncertainty. And you certainly want to make sure that Quebec addresses this problem before it becomes a crisis, also in order to be able to reassure those investors and people that honestly want to do open and transparent business in the province.
00:10:18.840Well, I appreciate you bringing it up and laying it out. I hope it's been getting some appreciation in Quebec as well.
00:10:24.120Can you tell us a little more about your public affairs company and other issues perhaps that you're following right now?
00:10:30.360Yes. So I'm welcoming the opportunity. Basically, we set up shop at the end of 2020 because we found that there were some inefficiencies in the market that some companies, associations, especially from English Canada, didn't have the right conduit for Quebec, were not willing to go into the market because they didn't speak the language, didn't know the Quebec culture.
00:10:51.800And honestly, I will say bluntly, it pissed me off a little bit to see a lot of very good people and very good project missing opportunities because of that.
00:10:59.920So we said, let's build a firm that can help those English Canadian associations and companies do business in Quebec and do it the right way.
00:11:08.580Because a lot of people tell us, Quebec is different. It's not another province. It's like being in another country, like doing business in Germany or Italy.
00:11:15.440And I say, you're exactly right, but it's not a reason good enough not to do business in Quebec.
00:11:21.220And, you know, I would say our business is basically 80% clients from English Canada and 20% from Quebec, but really the clients that we work with, whether it's on natural resource, financial sector, healthcare, definitely to help and provide them the services that they require to work with the government of Quebec, which is, by the way, very open to do so.
00:11:41.220But they just need the right people to knock on the door and they need the right projects to get in.
00:11:47.120Great. So before I let you go, where can people find your site and where your services are?
00:11:52.780So they can find us mainly on our website at www.boudewel.com.
00:12:00.200Just send us a line, send us a contact, and it will be our pleasure to discuss with you.
00:12:05.040I always say, well, like a lawyer office or an accountant office, first call is always free.
00:12:09.900Great. Okay. Well, I appreciate you coming on to talk to us today, and I really do appreciate getting a different perspective on things from that part of the country we don't communicate with or understand as clearly as we should sometimes.
00:12:20.380So thank you. I hope things go well and we can talk to you again soon.
00:12:24.520Much appreciated, Corey. Say hi to everybody. Thanks.
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