Western Standard - David Millard Haskell social scientist and university professor on CRT in Ontario schools

00:00:00.000 You wrote a piece recently in C2C Journal, and it was basically on parental pushback in the fight

00:00:07.400 against critical race theory coming in with the Ontario School Board. And that Ontario School

00:00:11.540 Board has already had a few flare-ups with some kind of unusual occurrences, I guess you could

00:00:15.640 say. They're quite something. But in the sense of critical race theory, I mean, a lot of people

00:00:20.360 think that's just an American phenomenon, but obviously it's an issue up here as well.

00:00:25.260 Yeah, it is. And what people don't often realize is they don't tend to use the words

00:00:29.940 critical race theory. I mean, they've gotten on to the fact that people don't like it, that the

00:00:36.740 United States certainly had a backlash among parents. And so here in Canada, educators who

00:00:41.520 are in favor of things like critical race theory don't call it that at all. They'll call it things

00:00:45.840 like anti-racism education. And part of that will also be white privilege instruction. So parents

00:00:53.900 have probably heard about that, you know, that their kids are being taught about white privilege

00:00:57.840 or that their kids are being exposed to anti-racism education. But what they need to know

00:01:03.880 is that the foundation of that really is critical race theory. And it's just the practical applications

00:01:09.740 of it. In terms of anti-racism education, for example, we've got these books out there,

00:01:18.040 How to Be Antiracist. One was written by a fellow, he's at Boston University, his name's Ibram

00:01:22.860 Kindy. And it essentially says that discrimination based on skin color is a good thing. He will say 1.00

00:01:30.700 that if it is anti-racist discrimination, and it's taking on past wrongs, past historical wrongs,

00:01:40.960 then that's a good thing. So essentially, with anti-racism education, we're actually seeing

00:01:45.300 students being told discrimination can be a good thing. Yeah, it's kind of gone a bizarro full

00:01:52.140 circle. I mean, I've seen that. We're just adding to division. I mean, I think the goal for initially

00:01:58.820 when there was problems with true systemic racism and institutionalized racism was that race just

00:02:04.740 wouldn't be a matter anymore. We'll get to a point where it's irrelevant. You know, we are treating each

00:02:09.280 other as equal. And now we're kind of dividing each other on the basis of anti-racism. It's

00:02:14.620 counterintuitive, but that's where this sort of theory starts to come about.

00:02:18.680 Yeah. And I mean, where it is most insidious is this teaching of white privilege, which is seen

00:02:24.780 across all the boards in Ontario and certainly all across the West and everywhere in Canada,

00:02:30.980 everywhere in the US. And this idea of white privilege, just in case people aren't familiar

00:02:35.460 with it, it essentially teaches that if you're white, many of the successes or maybe even the

00:02:40.600 majority of your successes are due to your white skin. Now, conversely, it's equally damaging to 1.00

00:02:46.420 students of color because it teaches that no matter how hard they work, the deck is stacked against them

00:02:52.960 and they can't succeed. So in that, we have this subtle racism of low expectations. And the thing that

00:02:59.900 I've pointed out in the article that you mentioned in the CDC Journal is that the research surrounding

00:03:07.280 things like diversity education, anti-racism education, and in particular, white privilege,

00:03:14.220 the research actually shows that it doesn't do what it intends to do. In fact, it does harm.

00:03:21.040 Well, yeah. I mean, if somebody feels, I mean, kids are in a developmental stage at that point,

00:03:26.880 they're very impressionable. If you're being taught at a young age that you're at a disadvantage, I mean,

00:03:31.800 I guess for some, it would inspire people to rise above and push past that. But for others,

00:03:36.520 it might give a sense of defeatism and actually, you know, it'd be a self-fulfilling prophecy. And

00:03:41.020 that's not good for anybody. No, no. And you know what? You should have been a social scientist

00:03:45.240 yourself because what you're talking about is a really well-studied phenomenon called stereotype threat.

00:03:52.140 Now, stereotype threat says exactly what you're saying. And we've got a lot of studies

00:03:57.220 surrounding it. It's essentially that if you keep telling students of color or people of color

00:04:02.040 that the deck is stacked against them, then they'll begin to believe it. And then they will

00:04:06.300 underperform. The interesting thing is when you have people of color who are immigrants to Canada, 1.00

00:04:12.620 for example, and they don't buy into that particular false notion that the deck is stacked against

00:04:20.040 them, they actually overperform. The latest Statistics Canada data showed that people of color 1.00

00:04:27.940 actually have a greater chance of getting a university degree than white populations that

00:04:35.020 have been here for decades or hundreds of years. So we're seeing that now. And really,

00:04:40.100 it's a testament to this idea that the harder you work and also your home life, if you have two

00:04:45.540 parents that are together and in a solid relationship, those are the things that matter.

00:04:52.580 Yeah, there's other social factors beyond that. And some of that does put light to it. I mean,

00:04:57.020 we've seen a great success in Asian and South Asian populations, for example, and immigrants in most

00:05:03.400 measures, whether it's educational or financial and such. But those factors, when you dig into it,

00:05:08.620 tend to be. It's a strong, supportive family unit. It's a culture very much of ambition and moving

00:05:13.820 ahead. And those are beyond. I mean, if it was just purely racial disadvantages, they wouldn't be

00:05:20.240 able to excel as well as they have. Well, that's really true. And let me just give an example

00:05:25.600 from my own area. So I'm in Waterloo Region, and the Board of Education is the Waterloo Region

00:05:32.840 District School Board. And we currently have a director of education who's been pushing so hard

00:05:40.420 to get identity to be the key focus of the Board of Education, to the exclusion of things like basic,

00:05:48.600 numeracy, literacy. He's really focused on identity. And he's had some pushback on that from parents who

00:05:54.380 are saying, why is this the focus? And he felt so much pressure. In fact, he had to write this op-ed

00:06:00.820 in the local newspaper. And in it, he goes on to say that we need to focus on identity because,

00:06:08.580 and I'm going to try and get the quote as close as possible. He says, it's no secret since the

00:06:14.340 advent of public education, identity has been a predictor of outcome. Well, I looked at that,

00:06:21.040 and I knew it was just completely at odds with the research, because it's simply not so. In terms of

00:06:26.700 identity, it's one of the worst predictors, the most unreliable predictors of academic outcome.

00:06:33.100 So I quickly shot out a letter to the editor. And among other things, I noted that in the UK,

00:06:39.060 they'd just done the largest study of the effect of race on academic outcome. The UK Commission on

00:06:47.460 Race and Ethnic Disparities put this out, I think it was March or May 2021. Anyway, they went on to say

00:06:54.700 that the evidence shows conclusively family influence, socioeconomic background, culture,

00:07:01.060 and religion have the most significant impact on things like academic achievement. And it was

00:07:08.240 specifically, they noticed this specifically, they say, but racism was one of the least important

00:07:14.380 factors in all of this. So anyway, I shot this out, but you'd think that research would have an effect

00:07:21.100 on the leaders in our educational community. But I think that they're blinded by ideology.

00:07:26.820 Yeah, and again, we just get the most worried. I think perhaps that's where it's finally getting

00:07:31.140 this pushback, because now it's actually targeting young children. It's not even in the levels of our

00:07:35.640 post-secondary, where we've always seen kind of some woke lunacy taking hold over the years. But

00:07:40.620 at least those are grown, you know, people, students, and so on, who can make up their own mind. But when we

00:07:46.200 start to bring these ideologies into the classrooms of kids at such a young age, and on theories that

00:07:52.200 are ideologically based, as you said, I mean, it can cause a lot of damage. I feel for the

00:07:56.480 white children who are in class, too, who are almost being shamed, you know, and called out of

00:08:02.220 the group. And again, that's the opposite of what we should have ever done. I mean, there was shaming

00:08:05.540 and abuse against minority children in the past, and it was terrible. But turning it around and doing it

00:08:10.720 now with, you know, children who aren't people of color isn't helping the situation whatsoever. 1.00

00:08:16.220 Yeah, and it cuts both ways. I mean, the students of color are also being told, you're not good

00:08:22.500 enough. Right? I mean, it's racism both ways. And you're absolutely right to say that the effect on

00:08:29.980 young people is significant. Again, I came before my school board, and I presented them with the

00:08:37.840 research. And this research is detailed in the piece that I wrote in C2C Journal as well.

00:08:44.540 So if your audience wants to take a look, they can go there. But let me just point out a few

00:08:48.740 things. So there was a 2019 study that was done in the Journal of Experimental Psychology General,

00:08:57.380 that was the name of it. And the researcher was lead researcher was from Colgate University. Anyway,

00:09:02.380 he wanted to look at what effect would teaching white privilege have on the attitudes of students.

00:09:09.180 And well, they found out that it did absolutely nothing to make people more sympathetic to poor

00:09:16.820 black or people of color didn't do anything good. But what the researchers did find,

00:09:22.340 and I'm going to read the quote I have up here, I left it on my screen.

00:09:26.080 The researchers concluded learning about white privilege reduces sympathy, increases blame,

00:09:32.700 and decreases external attributes, attributions for white people struggling with poverty. So in

00:09:39.420 short, what they found was that teaching about white privilege doesn't do any good, but it does do harm. 0.66

00:09:44.680 And it actually makes students more hostile toward poor whites.

00:09:49.800 Yeah, and the division doesn't serve anybody. The later part of your article, though, does cover,

00:09:55.820 I mean, the growing resistance to this kind of ideology. I mean, this hasn't gone unopposed in

00:10:01.260 Ontario or in the United States, for that matter. You know, are parents finally standing back? I mean,

00:10:06.880 standing up. And one of the problems we've had is a lot of apathy when it comes to electing school

00:10:10.900 boards. People don't pay attention. Most people can't even name their local school trustee.

00:10:15.500 You think there's going to be maybe more participation, people paying attention now that things are kind of

00:10:19.400 getting a little off the rails? I know there will be. I know there will be. For example,

00:10:24.820 I was concerned. I've got a daughter still in high school here in the Waterloo region. And I hear what

00:10:33.040 she's being told in class. And I know that it is empirically incorrect, the things that she's being

00:10:40.280 taught by these so-called anti-racism educators. So I took it upon myself to start a local chapter of

00:10:51.400 the Foundation Against Intolerance and Racism. Now, even though that sounds kind of on the left,

00:10:56.780 it's actually dedicated to preserving the ideas put forward by Martin Luther King Jr., that we should

00:11:03.040 judge people by the content of their character, not the color of their skin. It's really about being

00:11:07.980 pro-human. Anyway, I started this chapter of Foundation Against Intolerance and Racism, or FAIR.

00:11:14.740 And I've had hundreds of parents show interest. I've got a solid, just under a hundred who are solid

00:11:23.020 members. And then we'll get more and more interest from just supporters. And I'm not the only, I'm not

00:11:28.840 the only group. There's Action for Canada. There's Parents as First Educators. And each of these groups

00:11:34.760 is searching for trustees, people who would be candidates for trustees, to bring back sanity to our

00:11:42.540 boards. And the response has been overwhelming. And not just in Waterloo Region, but across Ontario. And I'm not

00:11:50.100 sure what's happening in municipal or trustee elections across Canada. But I can only assume that parents for the

00:11:56.140 good of their children are finally waking up and they're taking action.

00:12:00.460 Well, that's it. And I mean, I kind of like the naming, whether it's left, right, it doesn't matter.

00:12:03.920 You know, I mean, the Foundation Against Intolerance and Racism, because that's what the ideologues will

00:12:09.780 always throw back. If you question it, you're immediately labeled as a racist. Well, a racist. I mean,

00:12:14.920 if you oppose our anti-racist view, it means you thus must be pro-racist. Well, no. And it's a lazy way to frame

00:12:21.560 a debate or a way to shut one down. And, you know, we need to have rational discussion on this.

00:12:27.400 We do. And I think that they've overplayed their hand. And now parents who typically have a lot more

00:12:34.060 common sense than the people who have been indoctrinated through education programs, they're

00:12:39.720 seeing what is actually going on. And they're saying, your definitions simply do not make sense.

00:12:46.420 You know, because we, in our hearts, we all know that discrimination based on skin color is a

00:12:53.220 terrible thing. And we almost got rid of it. We were so close. And then suddenly, we have these

00:13:00.040 woke activists who are coming back and saying, no, you know what, actually, let's bring back

00:13:05.300 discrimination based on skin color. Well, this is just playing with fire. And again, I'm all about the

00:13:11.360 data. I want to know what actually will do the most good in our society to bring unity. And the

00:13:18.440 things that they're promoting under the guise of anti-racism education or critical race theory or

00:13:23.220 white privilege, it doesn't do good. It does harm. Well, that's it. And being about the data, I mean,

00:13:28.260 we're seeing examples. We've seen, you know, places where this has been brought in. I mean, hey,

00:13:31.900 if we saw great successes and these graduates coming out that are unified and functional and happy and get

00:13:37.140 along with each other, then great. Well, let's carry on. But there really hasn't been any evidence

00:13:41.500 of that. Again, and as far as I can see, it's actually adding to division, no matter what they

00:13:47.280 may say the motivations are. Oh, for sure. And again, the data is just so ample. If these people who

00:13:58.180 are running our education systems would just allow it to be presented to parents. I'll give you another

00:14:05.000 example. So this is a great one. There's a professor at Princeton. Her name is Elizabeth Paluck,

00:14:12.060 P-A-L-U-C-K. And she did a 2001 study. It was published in the Annual Review of Psychology,

00:14:18.660 which is one of the top psychology journals in the world. And so she does this meta-analysis of

00:14:24.100 400 existing studies. And what she wanted to see is what good does diversity training do? Now,

00:14:31.320 keep in mind that things like anti-racism education and white privilege, these are the core modules of

00:14:37.500 diversity training. Whether it's done in a business or in a school, it's the same stuff.

00:14:41.700 So they're trying to look at these 400 studies that have already said what's being done with diversity

00:14:49.220 training. And this is what they came up with. So after looking at these 400 papers, they saw that

00:14:56.400 the bold claims that were being made were completely false. Because in terms of this kind of instruction,

00:15:02.580 the average impact, and again, I'm giving the data completely from this paper, the average impact of

00:15:09.440 diversity, equity, and inclusion training is zero. The impact is zero. It doesn't change you.

00:15:15.340 It doesn't help. But then you've got other people like Frank Dobbin, who's a sociologist at Harvard.

00:15:22.840 He said, yep, that's true. But he did his own studies. And what he looked at was, well,

00:15:29.700 it doesn't do good, but does it do harm? And he says, yeah, it does. In fact, this kind of diversity

00:15:35.180 training, whether it's white privilege or anti-racism education, it has a fairly good chance.

00:15:43.160 I can't remember the percentage he gave, but a fairly good chance of making people more prejudice.

00:15:48.600 So it won't do good, but it can do harm. And this is what we're promoting in our schools and in our universities.

00:15:55.420 It's terribly unfortunate. Well, I'm glad to see efforts are being made to call it out and hopefully bring it to

00:16:00.880 account. I mean, there are democratic means to change some of these school boards. Universities, that's going to be a much

00:16:05.280 bigger and harder task. But at least, you know, to keep the kids just sticking to their, I would think,

00:16:10.060 a rational curriculum and trying to keep, you know, things on the up and up there until they can grow old

00:16:15.800 enough to sort some of those things out would be really important. So I appreciate you calling it out

00:16:20.280 in your article and coming on to talk to us today. Where do we find more information about what you're

00:16:24.540 doing and your organization?

00:16:26.460 So I would encourage people, first of all, to go to the article in C2C. And one of the, it's about CRTC.

00:16:34.800 I can't remember the title, but it's Parental Pushback, I think is the subtitle. And it's in

00:16:40.980 C2C Journal. And that actually has links in the actual article to the organizations, the grassroots

00:16:47.860 community organizations that are pushing back against some of this stuff. So that's a place to

00:16:52.220 go. Another place to go would be to the main website for the Foundation Against Intolerance and

00:16:58.000 Racism. And look for the local chapter. There are now chapters across Canada. And find your local

00:17:04.940 chapter and then work to support them.

00:17:08.180 Great. Well, yeah, it was in the C2C Journal, which is C and then the number two C for folks

00:17:12.700 Googling it. It was Parental Pushback, the Fight Against Critical Race Theory by David Millard Haskell.

00:17:17.780 So if you search that out, you'll find, as you said, that the article has a lot of links and background as

00:17:21.660 well for all the rest of that. So thank you again for coming on to talk about it today. And then let's hope we

00:17:25.980 can return some productive rationality to our education system.

00:17:29.960 Yeah, let's hope. Thanks very much.

Western Standard - August 15, 2022

David Millard Haskell social scientist and university professor on CRT in Ontario schools

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