Western Standard - June 13, 2025


Energy Superpower： What's holding Canada back？

Topics
liberal government honeymoon period
Mentioned
Mark Carney Tim Hodgson Wilkinson Steven Guilbeault Stephen Harper Pierre Poilievre Geez
Spread the wealth! Digital pipelines

Episode Stats


Length

11 minutes

Words per minute

184.28

Word count

2,169

Sentence count

181

Harmful content

Misogyny

2

sentences flagged

Hate speech

1

sentences flagged


Summary

Summaries generated with gmurro/bart-large-finetuned-filtered-spotify-podcast-summ .

Heather Exner-Perrault is a senior fellow with the McLennan Laurier Institute and Director of Energy, Natural Resources and Environment. She was in Calgary at the Global Energy Show, a conference that covers everything from oil, gas and petrochemicals.

Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
Misogyny classifications generated with MilaNLProc/bert-base-uncased-ear-misogyny .
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
Topics generated with Qwen2.5-3B-Instruct.
Hosts, guests, and mentioned names generated with spaCy (en_core_web_sm), reconciled against Wikidata.
00:00:00.000 I'm here on the floor of the Global Energy Show with Heather Exner-Perrault.
00:00:16.620 She is a senior fellow with the McDonnell Laurier Institute.
00:00:20.000 It's based in Ottawa, but she is based here in Alberta as its, what's the official title, the energy boss? 0.82
00:00:27.340 What's your official title?
00:00:28.060 Director of Energy, Natural Resources, and Environment.
00:00:31.000 If you're going to have one of those, it's good to have them in Alberta.
00:00:34.420 It covers the whole spectrum.
00:00:35.640 Lots to talk about.
00:00:36.640 Yeah, it turns out we're nearly neighbors, actually.
00:00:38.420 Yeah, kids will be going around the same place, playing the same sports fields, anyways.
00:00:42.800 Yeah, well, yours can babysit mine.
00:00:44.140 They're a little older.
00:00:45.820 All right, well, is this your first time at the energy show?
00:00:49.440 No, I was here last year, actually.
00:00:51.420 So, yeah, second time around.
00:00:53.100 Second time's a charm.
00:00:54.100 Yeah, it's, I mean, it's been around.
00:00:57.540 It's 60-odd years now.
00:00:59.260 I would have really liked to be here, like, 60 years ago, when it's just, like, a couple of roughnecks or something, showing off their new pump jacks.
00:01:05.900 I don't know.
00:01:06.640 But it's this huge event now.
00:01:09.660 You know, we've got, like, you know, there's Korean nuke guys there, and there's hydrogen people over there. 0.92
00:01:15.960 Nigeria, Norway.
00:01:19.640 Premiers, ministers, we've got everything.
00:01:21.920 The OPEC.
00:01:22.940 Yeah, Secretary General.
00:01:24.220 The majesty of OPEC, whatever the official title is there.
00:01:27.020 I mean, that was a big get here.
00:01:29.740 Yeah.
00:01:31.640 Notably, no senior officials, though, from the federal government.
00:01:37.000 It's a federal government that campaigned on elbows up, and we're done with the frivolous stuff.
00:01:42.780 The Trudeau years.
00:01:44.080 They didn't even happen, guys.
00:01:45.200 This is a totally new government.
00:01:48.200 Totally, totally new.
00:01:50.600 And it's no nonsense.
00:01:51.940 It's going to be one Canadian economy.
00:01:53.160 We're going to get serious.
00:01:54.540 You know, we're going to do big projects again.
00:01:57.220 But Prime Minister Carney not here.
00:02:00.380 I was surprised to see Tim Hodgson, the new minister of energy and natural resources, not here.
00:02:08.840 I mean, the new environment minister who replaced Stephen Gilboe.
00:02:13.700 That would have been a harder sell.
00:02:15.000 I mean, she'd have to have a real thick skin to show her face around here. 1.00
00:02:19.840 Stephen Gilboe showed up, though.
00:02:22.320 But, Tim, are you surprised to not see Tim Hodgson here?
00:02:26.180 Because he was here, spoke to the Calgary Chamber of Commerce just a few weeks ago, said the right things, I think.
00:02:32.520 I think people walked out of that thinking, maybe they're serious.
00:02:36.600 We're going to have to wait and see how the actions fit it.
00:02:38.540 But are you surprised not to see him here, at least, trying to make a piece of it?
00:02:42.220 Yeah, I wouldn't have been surprised to see him here.
00:02:44.500 You know, he'd be welcome here.
00:02:46.320 I bet he would.
00:02:46.780 You know, certainly people have optimism about what he's saying and doing.
00:02:50.340 And to his credit, he has been to Alberta, Saskatchewan, BC, Winnipeg, at least.
00:02:56.820 Anyway, so he's making the rounds in Western Canada and putting his, you know, talking about, talking and saying the right things.
00:03:02.060 Anyway, so I don't know if it was a scheduling issue or because they're trying to push through C5 before the summer sitting or that kind of thing.
00:03:07.820 But, yeah, too bad he's not here.
00:03:09.260 Hopefully next year.
00:03:12.000 I mean, maybe it's a scheduling thing.
00:03:13.920 I don't know.
00:03:14.380 But, I mean, on the Canadian energy calendar, this is Super Bowl.
00:03:20.640 This is the big one.
00:03:23.460 I don't know.
00:03:24.140 Do you want to speak to political to speculate about why?
00:03:27.200 Well, I'll say, you know, Wilkinson came to the World Petroleum Congress when it was held in Calgary and gave a speech that hit, like, a lead balloon.
00:03:34.480 So maybe there wasn't too much pressure, you know.
00:03:36.980 Sorry, who was that?
00:03:37.860 That was Wilkinson.
00:03:38.700 Okay, Wilkinson.
00:03:39.300 Yeah, when he was the Minister of Energy.
00:03:40.940 Did not go over well.
00:03:42.340 So maybe before we knew it was Hodgson, maybe for the organizers, not knowing who would be the minister, what would be the reception.
00:03:48.860 You know, maybe there wasn't going to push to invite, maybe.
00:03:51.600 He was invited.
00:03:53.700 I know people.
00:03:55.820 Okay.
00:03:57.040 But it's kind of a reset.
00:03:58.760 I mean, I think we know a lot of the same people in downtown Calgary here running oil and gas companies.
00:04:05.060 And, I mean, they're pretty damn skeptical.
00:04:08.500 These guys are not going to be one overnight.
00:04:11.540 But Carney at least sounded less...
00:04:16.180 They don't know which Carney they're speaking to.
00:04:17.880 Is it the guy who wrote the values book?
00:04:20.240 Or is it the guy we saw on the campaign trail?
00:04:22.900 And, I mean, he would not be the first politician to, you know, have a...
00:04:26.760 You know, say one thing at one time and then say something different, depending on the political context.
00:04:31.580 That happens and people of all political stripes do it.
00:04:33.920 That's not a uniquely liberal thing to do.
00:04:37.640 Which Carney is going to show up.
00:04:39.520 But there's been an openness, especially since Hodgson, I think, spoke at the Chamber of Commerce.
00:04:45.300 I don't know.
00:04:45.780 What's the sense that you're getting from these guys about how serious the industry is taking the new...
00:04:51.000 Geez, I'm falling into their propaganda language.
00:04:53.960 The revamped, re-elected liberal government.
00:04:57.540 How open to them are they right now?
00:04:59.480 Or how skeptical?
00:05:00.500 Yeah.
00:05:00.880 Well, I mean, trust needs to be built, for sure.
00:05:04.260 But I would say there's cautious optimism.
00:05:06.100 You know, I think if you were to say a year ago and tell us, you know, that a liberal prime minister would be saying we need to be an energy superpower.
00:05:13.020 That a liberal minister of energy would say we need to build big things.
00:05:16.880 And as a partner and is coming to Calgary, you know, with very reciprocal energy.
00:05:23.740 I think we would have been surprised and we would have been pleased.
00:05:26.060 So I'm willing, you know, it's only been six weeks they've been in power.
00:05:29.000 Certainly willing to try that honeymoon period.
00:05:31.040 And to see that, you know, what they're saying, can they translate that into implementation.
00:05:34.280 I'd say Hodgson and Kearney in particular very recently came from the private sector and know what that actually means.
00:05:40.440 And knows when they're saying that they're promising big things.
00:05:42.600 They know what that actually needs to look like on the ground.
00:05:45.360 But at some point, the honeymoon will be over.
00:05:48.240 At some point, some of the easier policy changes they could make will need to be made or people will start to be skeptical.
00:05:54.380 So I think at least until the fall, there will be a honeymoon.
00:05:57.540 And after that, we'll need to see some results.
00:05:59.820 So you said the magic word or two words there, energy superpower.
00:06:03.120 That term, I think, was first started to be used by Stephen Harper.
00:06:09.220 And by energy superpower, he generally meant it to mean Alberta and Saskatchewan, oil and gas, you know, plus Newfoundland offshore, et cetera.
00:06:15.780 But we meant it as pretty much conventional and non-conventional oil and gas.
00:06:21.360 Mark Carney has, though, started to say it.
00:06:25.260 Well, Pierre Polyev had been saying it.
00:06:27.180 Mark Carney started to use this verbiage.
00:06:29.500 And he is a bit more ambiguous about it.
00:06:34.440 Sometimes he would elaborate and say renewable and conventional.
00:06:38.660 He has, I think, proven to be a surprisingly good political communicator in saying things that avoid pissing off the broad mass of people.
00:06:52.940 But eventually, he will have to make decisions that will piss off people.
00:06:57.480 Because generally, you can't satisfy both groups at the same time.
00:07:00.260 You're doing it wrong if you are.
00:07:01.400 Yeah.
00:07:04.760 How are you reading when Mark Carney says we're going to make Canada an energy superpower?
00:07:11.020 How inclusive do you think he means on the oil and gas side?
00:07:15.100 Because he generally avoids saying the words oil and gas.
00:07:17.660 He has from time to time said the word conventional and renewable.
00:07:21.720 Yeah.
00:07:22.040 Well, I guess time will tell.
00:07:23.160 But I will say, you know, what is an energy superpower?
00:07:25.560 It is someone who is able to use their resources and leverage it to advance their interest on the global stage.
00:07:31.440 It's not the percentage of renewables that you use.
00:07:35.000 It's not your emissions per capita.
00:07:36.480 That doesn't make an energy superpower.
00:07:38.400 And speaking of OPEC, who we have for energy superpower today?
00:07:41.180 Basically, where, you know, there's consensus, Saudi Arabia, Russia, the United States.
00:07:45.040 Those are energy superpowers.
00:07:46.760 And China on the critical mineral side, you would say that they're also a superpower.
00:07:50.240 In that they have enough market sway and dominance that they can, again, leverage to advance their interests.
00:07:56.760 And so Canada certainly has the resources of an energy superpower.
00:07:59.880 We know in the oil sands, we are the third largest exporter, fourth largest producer, and fourth largest reserves.
00:08:06.360 We know with natural gas, with the money, with the Duvernay, we have an excellent world class, you know, beyond 100 years of reserve.
00:08:14.100 And we know in the Athabasca Basin, Saskatchewan, we have uranium.
00:08:16.880 Again, you know, the last decades, if not a century.
00:08:19.300 So we have the resources, but we have never used it in a political way as a superpower would use it.
00:08:24.440 We've never used it to advance our leverage and our influence to the world.
00:08:28.820 Now, Carney is starting to say some things.
00:08:30.640 They announced their G7 agenda, which was at least one of the three pillars, was building energy security.
00:08:36.380 And you do know that when the G7 come here and all the other partners, our NATO partners, European partners, Japan, Korea,
00:08:42.920 there's one thing that they look at Canada for, and that's to fill their energy and resource needs, in particular energy.
00:08:48.520 And I think Carney's no dummy.
00:08:50.320 I think he knows this.
00:08:51.820 So he may have to speak, you know, in vaguer terms.
00:08:55.680 But at the end of the day, if we're not getting more oil and gas and critical minerals to our allies,
00:09:00.140 then we're not acting like a superpower.
00:09:02.040 And in fact, we're letting them down because they actually need those things right now.
00:09:05.260 I mean, we've got larger proven oil and gas reserves than Russia.
00:09:10.380 But Russia is able to, it's not just purely dollars and cents, but they use it for exerting their influence on a geopolitical level.
00:09:20.220 That's how they are able to keep Germany from going completely hostile against them.
00:09:26.820 That was definitely part of the dynamic, absolutely.
00:09:30.060 Yeah, there was a reason that the United States or Ukraine blew up Nord Stream because it wanted to sever that relationship between Germany and Russia.
00:09:41.060 Because Russia is very successful at energy politics.
00:09:43.880 Because hypothetically, if Canada had been more aggressive in building our energy export infrastructure,
00:09:52.920 the United States would have had to think twice about screwing with us because we would be able to retaliate.
00:09:58.600 Not that I'm actually in favour of using Alberta's resources to save Ontario and Quebec after the way we'd been treated for so long.
00:10:05.460 But the United States would at least think twice about it if we had been perhaps more strategic in building ourselves up into an energy superpower.
00:10:13.540 And I think that's right.
00:10:14.420 It's not just having a lot of power.
00:10:16.820 It's having the ability to use it, to leverage it in other streams of politics.
00:10:23.560 Yeah, exactly.
00:10:24.420 So obviously, you know, we allowed ourselves to be a junior partner in this regional context when we had the resources and frankly the experts of a global player.
00:10:34.280 And so that was a mistake.
00:10:36.300 And I think with Trans Mountain and very soon with LNG Canada, at least that will be recalibrated somewhat.
00:10:41.600 But we should want to do more of that.
00:10:43.400 We should want a Northern Gateway.
00:10:44.680 We should want a Prince Rupert gas transmission.
00:10:46.360 We should want more LNG.
00:10:47.600 So we'll see if we do that.
00:10:49.700 But, you know, again, when our, you know, our allies actually need it.
00:10:54.740 We were looking at shale probably production peaking.
00:10:57.260 Even the EIA for the first time today I saw actually predicted 2026 shale peak.
00:11:02.620 I think it'll probably come before that.
00:11:04.640 But think in 10 years from now in a context where American oil production has declined, when we see that global demand and global population is still increasing.
00:11:12.960 And which is the democracy that is going to be filling some of that global demand?
00:11:16.600 It can't just be that OPEC and Russia just get more and more market share.
00:11:20.900 We absolutely need to fill some gap.
00:11:23.060 Some of this is just so necessary that I think it's inevitable that we will have to have a Northern Gateway.
00:11:27.960 We will have to have a Keystone XL one day.
00:11:30.160 The question is how much money, how much pain, how much tears for us to get it?
00:11:36.000 I don't know if that's optimistic or sad.
00:11:38.260 It's such a Canadian thing.
00:11:40.740 All right.
00:11:41.000 Well, thank you for your time.
00:11:42.400 I appreciate your expertise and all we'll be seeing around the show.
00:11:45.240 Great.
00:11:45.480 Thanks so much.