Western Standard - June 15, 2025


Energy Superpower: What's holding Canada back?


Episode Stats

Length

11 minutes

Words per Minute

184.28207

Word Count

2,169

Sentence Count

181

Misogynist Sentences

2

Hate Speech Sentences

1


Summary

Heather Exner-Perrault is a senior fellow with the McLennan Laurier Institute and Director of Energy, Natural Resources and Environment. She was in Calgary at the Global Energy Show, a conference that covers everything from oil, gas and petrochemicals.


Transcript

00:00:00.000 I'm here on the floor of the Global Energy Show with Heather Exner-Perrault.
00:00:16.620 She is a senior fellow with the McDonnell Laurier Institute.
00:00:20.000 It's based in Ottawa, but she is based here in Alberta as its, what's the official title, the energy boss?
00:00:27.340 What's your official title?
00:00:28.060 Director of Energy, Natural Resources, and Environment.
00:00:31.000 If you're going to have one of those, it's good to have them in Alberta.
00:00:34.420 It covers the whole spectrum.
00:00:35.640 Lots to talk about.
00:00:36.640 Yeah, it turns out we're nearly neighbors, actually.
00:00:38.420 Yeah, kids will be going around the same place, playing the same sports fields, anyways.
00:00:42.800 Yeah, well, yours can babysit mine.
00:00:44.140 They're a little older.
00:00:45.820 All right, well, is this your first time at the energy show?
00:00:49.440 No, I was here last year, actually.
00:00:51.420 So, yeah, second time around.
00:00:53.100 Second time's a charm.
00:00:54.100 Yeah, it's, I mean, it's been around.
00:00:57.540 It's 60-odd years now.
00:00:59.260 I would have really liked to be here, like, 60 years ago, when it's just, like, a couple of roughnecks or something, showing off their new pump jacks.
00:01:05.900 I don't know.
00:01:06.640 But it's this huge event now.
00:01:09.660 You know, we've got, like, you know, there's Korean nuke guys there, and there's hydrogen people over there.
00:01:15.960 Nigeria, Norway.
00:01:19.640 Premiers, ministers, we've got everything.
00:01:21.920 The OPEC.
00:01:22.940 Yeah, Secretary General.
00:01:24.220 The majesty of OPEC, whatever the official title is there.
00:01:27.020 I mean, that was a big get here.
00:01:29.740 Yeah.
00:01:31.640 Notably, no senior officials, though, from the federal government.
00:01:37.000 It's a federal government that campaigned on elbows up, and we're done with the frivolous stuff.
00:01:42.780 The Trudeau years.
00:01:44.080 They didn't even happen, guys.
00:01:45.200 This is a totally new government.
00:01:48.200 Totally, totally new.
00:01:50.600 And it's no nonsense.
00:01:51.940 It's going to be one Canadian economy.
00:01:53.160 We're going to get serious.
00:01:54.540 You know, we're going to do big projects again.
00:01:57.220 But Prime Minister Carney not here.
00:02:00.380 I was surprised to see Tim Hodgson, the new minister of energy and natural resources, not here.
00:02:08.840 I mean, the new environment minister who replaced Stephen Gilboe.
00:02:13.700 That would have been a harder sell.
00:02:15.000 I mean, she'd have to have a real thick skin to show her face around here.
00:02:19.840 Stephen Gilboe showed up, though.
00:02:22.320 But, Tim, are you surprised to not see Tim Hodgson here?
00:02:26.180 Because he was here, spoke to the Calgary Chamber of Commerce just a few weeks ago, said the right things, I think.
00:02:32.520 I think people walked out of that thinking, maybe they're serious.
00:02:36.600 We're going to have to wait and see how the actions fit it.
00:02:38.540 But are you surprised not to see him here, at least, trying to make a piece of it?
00:02:42.220 Yeah, I wouldn't have been surprised to see him here.
00:02:44.500 You know, he'd be welcome here.
00:02:46.320 I bet he would.
00:02:46.780 You know, certainly people have optimism about what he's saying and doing.
00:02:50.340 And to his credit, he has been to Alberta, Saskatchewan, BC, Winnipeg, at least.
00:02:56.820 Anyway, so he's making the rounds in Western Canada and putting his, you know, talking about, talking and saying the right things.
00:03:02.060 Anyway, so I don't know if it was a scheduling issue or because they're trying to push through C5 before the summer sitting or that kind of thing.
00:03:07.820 But, yeah, too bad he's not here.
00:03:09.260 Hopefully next year.
00:03:12.000 I mean, maybe it's a scheduling thing.
00:03:13.920 I don't know.
00:03:14.380 But, I mean, on the Canadian energy calendar, this is Super Bowl.
00:03:20.640 This is the big one.
00:03:23.460 I don't know.
00:03:24.140 Do you want to speak to political to speculate about why?
00:03:27.200 Well, I'll say, you know, Wilkinson came to the World Petroleum Congress when it was held in Calgary and gave a speech that hit, like, a lead balloon.
00:03:34.480 So maybe there wasn't too much pressure, you know.
00:03:36.980 Sorry, who was that?
00:03:37.860 That was Wilkinson.
00:03:38.700 Okay, Wilkinson.
00:03:39.300 Yeah, when he was the Minister of Energy.
00:03:40.940 Did not go over well.
00:03:42.340 So maybe before we knew it was Hodgson, maybe for the organizers, not knowing who would be the minister, what would be the reception.
00:03:48.860 You know, maybe there wasn't going to push to invite, maybe.
00:03:51.600 He was invited.
00:03:53.700 I know people.
00:03:55.820 Okay.
00:03:57.040 But it's kind of a reset.
00:03:58.760 I mean, I think we know a lot of the same people in downtown Calgary here running oil and gas companies.
00:04:05.060 And, I mean, they're pretty damn skeptical.
00:04:08.500 These guys are not going to be one overnight.
00:04:11.540 But Carney at least sounded less...
00:04:16.180 They don't know which Carney they're speaking to.
00:04:17.880 Is it the guy who wrote the values book?
00:04:20.240 Or is it the guy we saw on the campaign trail?
00:04:22.900 And, I mean, he would not be the first politician to, you know, have a...
00:04:26.760 You know, say one thing at one time and then say something different, depending on the political context.
00:04:31.580 That happens and people of all political stripes do it.
00:04:33.920 That's not a uniquely liberal thing to do.
00:04:37.640 Which Carney is going to show up.
00:04:39.520 But there's been an openness, especially since Hodgson, I think, spoke at the Chamber of Commerce.
00:04:45.300 I don't know.
00:04:45.780 What's the sense that you're getting from these guys about how serious the industry is taking the new...
00:04:51.000 Geez, I'm falling into their propaganda language.
00:04:53.960 The revamped, re-elected liberal government.
00:04:57.540 How open to them are they right now?
00:04:59.480 Or how skeptical?
00:05:00.500 Yeah.
00:05:00.880 Well, I mean, trust needs to be built, for sure.
00:05:04.260 But I would say there's cautious optimism.
00:05:06.100 You know, I think if you were to say a year ago and tell us, you know, that a liberal prime minister would be saying we need to be an energy superpower.
00:05:13.020 That a liberal minister of energy would say we need to build big things.
00:05:16.880 And as a partner and is coming to Calgary, you know, with very reciprocal energy.
00:05:23.740 I think we would have been surprised and we would have been pleased.
00:05:26.060 So I'm willing, you know, it's only been six weeks they've been in power.
00:05:29.000 Certainly willing to try that honeymoon period.
00:05:31.040 And to see that, you know, what they're saying, can they translate that into implementation.
00:05:34.280 I'd say Hodgson and Kearney in particular very recently came from the private sector and know what that actually means.
00:05:40.440 And knows when they're saying that they're promising big things.
00:05:42.600 They know what that actually needs to look like on the ground.
00:05:45.360 But at some point, the honeymoon will be over.
00:05:48.240 At some point, some of the easier policy changes they could make will need to be made or people will start to be skeptical.
00:05:54.380 So I think at least until the fall, there will be a honeymoon.
00:05:57.540 And after that, we'll need to see some results.
00:05:59.820 So you said the magic word or two words there, energy superpower.
00:06:03.120 That term, I think, was first started to be used by Stephen Harper.
00:06:09.220 And by energy superpower, he generally meant it to mean Alberta and Saskatchewan, oil and gas, you know, plus Newfoundland offshore, et cetera.
00:06:15.780 But we meant it as pretty much conventional and non-conventional oil and gas.
00:06:21.360 Mark Carney has, though, started to say it.
00:06:25.260 Well, Pierre Polyev had been saying it.
00:06:27.180 Mark Carney started to use this verbiage.
00:06:29.500 And he is a bit more ambiguous about it.
00:06:34.440 Sometimes he would elaborate and say renewable and conventional.
00:06:38.660 He has, I think, proven to be a surprisingly good political communicator in saying things that avoid pissing off the broad mass of people.
00:06:52.940 But eventually, he will have to make decisions that will piss off people.
00:06:57.480 Because generally, you can't satisfy both groups at the same time.
00:07:00.260 You're doing it wrong if you are.
00:07:01.400 Yeah.
00:07:04.760 How are you reading when Mark Carney says we're going to make Canada an energy superpower?
00:07:11.020 How inclusive do you think he means on the oil and gas side?
00:07:15.100 Because he generally avoids saying the words oil and gas.
00:07:17.660 He has from time to time said the word conventional and renewable.
00:07:21.720 Yeah.
00:07:22.040 Well, I guess time will tell.
00:07:23.160 But I will say, you know, what is an energy superpower?
00:07:25.560 It is someone who is able to use their resources and leverage it to advance their interest on the global stage.
00:07:31.440 It's not the percentage of renewables that you use.
00:07:35.000 It's not your emissions per capita.
00:07:36.480 That doesn't make an energy superpower.
00:07:38.400 And speaking of OPEC, who we have for energy superpower today?
00:07:41.180 Basically, where, you know, there's consensus, Saudi Arabia, Russia, the United States.
00:07:45.040 Those are energy superpowers.
00:07:46.760 And China on the critical mineral side, you would say that they're also a superpower.
00:07:50.240 In that they have enough market sway and dominance that they can, again, leverage to advance their interests.
00:07:56.760 And so Canada certainly has the resources of an energy superpower.
00:07:59.880 We know in the oil sands, we are the third largest exporter, fourth largest producer, and fourth largest reserves.
00:08:06.360 We know with natural gas, with the money, with the Duvernay, we have an excellent world class, you know, beyond 100 years of reserve.
00:08:14.100 And we know in the Athabasca Basin, Saskatchewan, we have uranium.
00:08:16.880 Again, you know, the last decades, if not a century.
00:08:19.300 So we have the resources, but we have never used it in a political way as a superpower would use it.
00:08:24.440 We've never used it to advance our leverage and our influence to the world.
00:08:28.820 Now, Carney is starting to say some things.
00:08:30.640 They announced their G7 agenda, which was at least one of the three pillars, was building energy security.
00:08:36.380 And you do know that when the G7 come here and all the other partners, our NATO partners, European partners, Japan, Korea,
00:08:42.920 there's one thing that they look at Canada for, and that's to fill their energy and resource needs, in particular energy.
00:08:48.520 And I think Carney's no dummy.
00:08:50.320 I think he knows this.
00:08:51.820 So he may have to speak, you know, in vaguer terms.
00:08:55.680 But at the end of the day, if we're not getting more oil and gas and critical minerals to our allies,
00:09:00.140 then we're not acting like a superpower.
00:09:02.040 And in fact, we're letting them down because they actually need those things right now.
00:09:05.260 I mean, we've got larger proven oil and gas reserves than Russia.
00:09:10.380 But Russia is able to, it's not just purely dollars and cents, but they use it for exerting their influence on a geopolitical level.
00:09:20.220 That's how they are able to keep Germany from going completely hostile against them.
00:09:26.820 That was definitely part of the dynamic, absolutely.
00:09:30.060 Yeah, there was a reason that the United States or Ukraine blew up Nord Stream because it wanted to sever that relationship between Germany and Russia.
00:09:41.060 Because Russia is very successful at energy politics.
00:09:43.880 Because hypothetically, if Canada had been more aggressive in building our energy export infrastructure,
00:09:52.920 the United States would have had to think twice about screwing with us because we would be able to retaliate.
00:09:58.600 Not that I'm actually in favour of using Alberta's resources to save Ontario and Quebec after the way we'd been treated for so long.
00:10:05.460 But the United States would at least think twice about it if we had been perhaps more strategic in building ourselves up into an energy superpower.
00:10:13.540 And I think that's right.
00:10:14.420 It's not just having a lot of power.
00:10:16.820 It's having the ability to use it, to leverage it in other streams of politics.
00:10:23.560 Yeah, exactly.
00:10:24.420 So obviously, you know, we allowed ourselves to be a junior partner in this regional context when we had the resources and frankly the experts of a global player.
00:10:34.280 And so that was a mistake.
00:10:36.300 And I think with Trans Mountain and very soon with LNG Canada, at least that will be recalibrated somewhat.
00:10:41.600 But we should want to do more of that.
00:10:43.400 We should want a Northern Gateway.
00:10:44.680 We should want a Prince Rupert gas transmission.
00:10:46.360 We should want more LNG.
00:10:47.600 So we'll see if we do that.
00:10:49.700 But, you know, again, when our, you know, our allies actually need it.
00:10:54.740 We were looking at shale probably production peaking.
00:10:57.260 Even the EIA for the first time today I saw actually predicted 2026 shale peak.
00:11:02.620 I think it'll probably come before that.
00:11:04.640 But think in 10 years from now in a context where American oil production has declined, when we see that global demand and global population is still increasing.
00:11:12.960 And which is the democracy that is going to be filling some of that global demand?
00:11:16.600 It can't just be that OPEC and Russia just get more and more market share.
00:11:20.900 We absolutely need to fill some gap.
00:11:23.060 Some of this is just so necessary that I think it's inevitable that we will have to have a Northern Gateway.
00:11:27.960 We will have to have a Keystone XL one day.
00:11:30.160 The question is how much money, how much pain, how much tears for us to get it?
00:11:36.000 I don't know if that's optimistic or sad.
00:11:38.260 It's such a Canadian thing.
00:11:40.740 All right.
00:11:41.000 Well, thank you for your time.
00:11:42.400 I appreciate your expertise and all we'll be seeing around the show.
00:11:45.240 Great.
00:11:45.480 Thanks so much.