FILDEBRANDT： The independence question： Parallels between Quebec and Alberta
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Summary
Paul St-Pierre Plamondon, better known as PSPP, is the leader of the Parti Quebecois and is widely regarded as the front-runner to become the next premier of Quebec. In this episode, we talk to him about the challenges faced by his party and why there might be some commonality between Alberta and the West.
Transcript
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I'm Derek Fildebrand, publisher of the Western Standard. Today is September 11th, 2025.
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Today I'm joined by Paul St. Pierre Plamondon, better known as PSPP. He is the leader of the
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Parti Quebecois. He took over the leadership of that party when it was down to just three seats and at
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its lowest level of support ever, but has since grown it to the first place in the polls and is
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widely considered to be the frontrunner to become the next Premier of Quebec. He is in Alberta right
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now. Just this morning he was speaking at the University of Calgary, speaking about the
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challenges of Quebec and where there might be alignment and some commonality with Alberta
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and the West. His team reached out to us and I think it was a fantastic opportunity to speak
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to someone outside of our normal comfort zone, outside of our bubble, getting a different
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perspective on the kinds of issues we face in the West from someone who leads a party trying
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to address the similar-ish challenges that they have in Quebec. Paul, thank you very much
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So I'll pick up kind of from our pre-camera conversation.
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You know, I think outside of Quebec, there is an extremely simplistic understanding of the
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party Quebec law and in most provinces, the politics are lined up broadly along a left-right
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spectrum. You know, NDP, liberal, conservative, you know, fit green in there in some provinces,
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sometimes not. In Quebec, its politics have, at least since the quiet revolution in the 60s,
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been defined along a more nationalist, federalist axis and, you know, there's places to go along
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that. But it's also still got left-right that does play into it, just not as neatly as in
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other places. In Alberta, the nationalist, federalist spectrum lines up very neatly on
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a left-right, because, you know, because our nationalist movement is not so much based on
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culture, language, that kind of thing. It's more of an economic and civic nationalist thing.
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So, I don't know, maybe if you could just start with, you know, where does, how should an
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English Canadian understand the party Quebec law?
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Let's try the, let's give it a shot. I think you're correct. So the Parti Québécois is a party
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founded upon a willingness of the population in Quebec for self-determination.
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So what it is about is democracy and making our own choices, not sending money to Ottawa for them,
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with only 20% of the seats, for them to decide what we ought to do with that money.
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It's particular, of course, in the case of Quebec, you're correct to say that the linguistic and
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cultural aspect of it is important, because if you can't make your own policies and spend your own
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money where you think it belongs, you will see very important challenges in terms of sustaining,
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having durability for the French language, the Quebec culture, but it goes also to emigration,
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the place of the judiciary power that is always, almost always aligned with the Liberal Party of
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Canada. So we'll not rule in favor of what would have been the democratic choice of Quebec.
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So you have several topics where the democratic will of Quebecers is overruled by a federal government
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that tends to abuse its powers by spending in fields that should be the fields of the provinces.
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In terms of right and left, Quebec in general tend to be centrist. So you'll see if you compare to
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France, England, United States, elsewhere, there is radical left and there is radical right.
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But the behavior in general is more towards the center. Parti Québécois has had periods where it was
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quite to the left, other periods that were qualified as more to the right of the center. But it's always
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close to the center, you can say that. And as for the current Parti Québécois, it will be now five years
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this fall that I'm the leader of the Parti Québécois. I think you could say we're anti-radical left,
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social democrats, which is, which is... You don't say moderate left? It's... Yeah, you could say
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moderate left. And sometimes we're right. So it's very difficult to read from a more standard left-right
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spectrum because of many factors. But one model that I think would be comparable is a few Scandinavian
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countries who came to the conclusion that radical left ideas had the catastrophic impact on their
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social peace and on their services and so on. And yet they are pursuing the idea that it should be a
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free, a market-based free market society where the richer will contribute to a safety net to services
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that are available to everyone. So that's what I would call social democracy, not the same than socialist,
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socialist, because socialist is not believing in free market. And yet a very strong criticism from my part
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of the direction Canada took under Trudeau, not only the abuse of power, but the ideology, the
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counterproductive ideology during that period. And it's still on. I think under Carney, it's still the same
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people and the same ideas, I think. So nationalism is, broadly speaking, on the right, sorry, within
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the Western civilization, generally associated with the right. But for lack of a better term,
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subnational nationalism is more often than not associated with the left, but not always. You know, if we look at,
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say, the Scottish National Party, it's a left party. Yeah.
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Um, uh, you know, uh, in Catalonia, uh, you know, the, the independence and autonomous movements in
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Catalonia associated with the left. Um, uh, and then in Quebec, imperfectly, but I think it's broadly
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associated a bit with the left. Uh, Alberta is different where it's, it's almost uniform, like, you know,
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among, uh, United Conservative Party supporters in Alberta, 66% support independence, 33% are opposed.
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But then among NDP supporters, it's 99% are federalists.
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Which, which from Quebec's perspective is incomprehensible. Because if your pretension
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is that you should have funding for services to the population and that safety net could be better,
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why would you send a substantial part of your income tax to a government that just duplicates or is
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wasting your money, giving you very few services in return? Why would you do that? So, so, so, um,
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I, I agree. But I think from their perspective, um,
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think of the left in Alberta, the way we would think of Anglophones in Quebec, they're a minority and
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they rely on the national government to protect them. That if Alberta was its own country, uh,
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the left would be permanently shut out of power and it would have overall less influence, that they
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use Ottawa to counter, uh, the Alberta government. I, I think that's, that's from their, from their
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I don't think it's a valid argument, but, uh, it's for them, it's for them to decide.
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I'm trying to speak on their behalf, which is obviously a subpar. Um,
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right. So you've said you're committed, uh, if you form the Parti Quebecois under your leadership
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forms government, you're holding a third referendum on sovereignty. Um, I think you've been pretty
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unambiguous about it. It's not, uh, as Lucien Bouchard said, not waiting for winning conditions.
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It's we're, we're gonna do it. Um, but what sovereignty or independence means is, um,
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sometimes ambiguous. The, uh, the first two referendum questions were, were criticized for
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being ambiguous, not very clear cut, uh, in Alberta. Uh, I, if I can give myself a little
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credit, the Western standard, I think is imported a lot of the language around independence and sovereignty
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from Quebec. Um, when we say independence in Alberta, we mean a Republic of Alberta or, or I
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guess technically could be another constitution, but it would be a, a separate independent country
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completely on its own, severed, uh, from all direct state ties from Canada. Yeah. Um, it's, it's exactly
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the same right now for the Parti Quebecois. Yeah. Now, Daniel Smith has also talked about sovereignty
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within Canada, um, with more independence, but not the term independent. But when, when you say
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sovereignty, are, are, are you talking about, uh, some kind of sovereignty association or is it like,
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no, there's a Republic of Quebec and it is its own country. I say independence. That's it. Um, and
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here's what's, what's going to happen if Alberta, uh, continues in the sovereignty association
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model, or at least discourse. That discourse will be met in Ottawa with, it's giving Ottawa power to
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respond by saying, oh, you think we'll collaborate? You think it will go well? It's going to be terrible.
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And then the fear takes all the place because you're dependent on the interpretation of a
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regime that feels, uh, threatened or that feels there might be losing powers, so they will not help you.
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So, uh, I think I've, I've never discussed, I work with, uh, uh, the people, uh, very close to
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René Lévesque, uh, that were very close to René Lévesque. I never understood why they, they came to
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that idea of sovereignty. That means that you're still, that you're not really independent. But when
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I mean independent, I mean a country with a hundred percent of their capacity from a financial
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standpoint, from a law standpoint, and from a standpoint of foreign relations. Now, once you're
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a country and you have those foreign relations, nothing is preventing you from making a deal or
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inventing a framework with another independent province that say, I think we might, I think we
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should work on this together. We have a common interest. The difference in that model is that you
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respect the democracy and the legitimacy of both those parliaments. Whereas the current model is
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an illegitimate government that will tell you, based on not much, because oftentimes they're
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ultra virus of their own constitution. They will tell you how it should be done and your voice will
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not be heard, which is pretty much anti-democratic. So I think independence is, it's important to have
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that word or that name because it's within independence that you have foreign relations. And
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once you have foreign relations, you can set a deal based on your own will, based on self-determination,
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democratic self-determination is very different from the current model. And I don't see Canada
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stopping ever the abuse of powers that we've seen over and over, over so many decades. Human nature
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never leaves power on the table. They might make a deal with you and be nice with you right now. If
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they see that Alberta's independence project is getting serious, they might give you a few presents and
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give you a break for a while. But once your autonomous government will be out and will be replaced by a
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more federalist government, it will start again. That's the history of the Parti Québécois. The
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irony with our party is that it's when the Parti Québécois is in power that we make the most gains
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from the federal government. So people are just, it's working. But it's not because as soon as you're out of
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power, the overall picture is that we've been in decline in terms of invasion of the federal in our
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fields of competence, but also decline of the French language, the decline of our culture in our
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So, uh, if I don't know if you've announced the wording of what your question would be,
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but I mean, so you're saying that this, the third referendum is going to have a clear question.
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It's something along the lines of should Alberta become an independent country? That's it. Like,
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that's it. Yeah. Okay. Well, I should address the first part of the Clarity Act.
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No, no, no, it will not. It will not because the federal government is not, has not done the Clarity
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Act and has not tried to get the judicial power. I know I made a can of worms as soon as I said that.
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But they've not done all that because they worry about fairness. They worry about keeping their
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power, their regime. So I do not expect them to stop at this. They'll find something else to say
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at the end that they don't recognize it and that it doesn't work. They were not. So they lied during
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the referendum of 94. They lied on several things, but they lied on the idea that they will recognize
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the result. They said that during the campaign, but we know for a fact from declarations afterwards,
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one of Jean Chrétien, that they were not going to recognize it. And so abuse of power doesn't stop
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overnight. And I'm not naive about it, but to answer your question, yes, it's about independence
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and the question will be very to the point. Okay. Well, since we opened the Clarity Act can of worms,
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uh, I guess we'll go down up a little bit. Um, you know, I, uh, I think the only two, uh, places
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in Canada as it's currently constituted where there's any kind of number of people who have
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actually really looked into it is in Quebec and Alberta because we're the ones who would have to
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deal with it. Um, you know, I, I've, I generally thought the first two points of the Clarity Act
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are reasonable, a clear question, clear majority. Okay. I mean, that's pretty hard to disagree with,
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but it's after that where it just says, but even the clear majority, it's just that could get hazy.
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I generally say it's, it's written abuse of power all over it because I mean, what's democracy if
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it's not to win or to lose in power with 35% of the vote, sometimes any, and he gets almost all the
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power. So what's clear majority? There are defensive mechanisms to keep power, but we're the,
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the big problematic area to me is where, where I've seen is that, okay, say Alberta or Quebec
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had a clear question and a clear majority. Let's just say it's an argument. It was 80% overwhelming.
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You know, no one's going to get that, but let's just say that. Um, but then all it does is oblige
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Ottawa to negotiate and you would need unanimity of all the other provinces and Ottawa together.
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And at that point, I feel like it's designed by design, uh, to just bog us down in negotiations and
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they can make unreasonable demands of that or unreasonable demands of Alberta and say,
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well, you know, we're just not agreeing to it. And that leads to two possible outcomes at that point,
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which is either we just give up on it and accept status quo despite what people have voted for or
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the magic word, you know, a unilateral declaration of independence. Of course. Uh, is that something
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you're prepared to do in the event where you enter into negotiations, which would be reasonable, but
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those negotiations are maybe not in good faith. Would a government after a successful referendum on
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independence and negotiations breaking down is a unilateral declaration of independence, something
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you would, uh, be prepared to make. Um, the whole question here is legitimacy of a government
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that controls or nominates the judicial power and that will not let it happen and will find any reason
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or excuse not to recognize the legitimacy of that change. And that change is currently being
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discussed in Alberta and Quebec and might be discussed elsewhere, um, depending on how, uh, where this leads.
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I don't find myself obliged by a regime that I don't find legitimate. My only loyalty is towards my people
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who elected me. The rest for me is a foreign regime out of a colonial mentality and framework. And so
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when I refused to give an oath to the King of England, people told me, oh, the constitution won't let
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you. And I was just, I don't care. I mean, what legitimacy for that constitution? If Quebec never agreed to it,
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it's clearly the out, the spinoff of the colonial regime and the willingness to make Francophones a minority
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in that new ensemble. Why should I accept to lie and give my loyalty to a foreign king just because you tell me a constitution
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that is illegitimate tells me so. So I didn't decide to, to put a knee down and, and, and to make that oath. I just
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continued. And I said, this is not legitimate. So legitimacy in democracy is much more important than, um,
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um, um, legal documents that actually were never consented upon by the different members of that
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ensemble. So, so that's, that's where declaring the independence of Quebec, if I have a majority of my
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people supporting me is not only, uh, what, uh, what I'm going to do. It's my devoir. It's my obligation,
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because I know that there's no future. The policies of Canada are working against Quebec's interest in
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so many ways. There's no future for French speaking with a Quebec culture. Uh, that kind of Quebec will
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not exist in a hundred years if I don't do anything. And financially speaking, I don't want charity from
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any other province. And I don't feel it's normal to send almost half of my tax income to a government
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that duplicates or wastes the money I've gained. I disagree with that. So, so legitimacy, I think,
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is really important in understanding what's coming, whether it comes from Alberta or it comes from
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Quebec, because otherwise you see it from other governments in the world. Like there's, there's no end
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to being in bad faith using legal instruments that you've created yourself to protect yourself and
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protect your power. I mean, democracy is much more about popular legitimacy than, uh, a power that
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tries to hold on to, uh, what they have. Uh, I'm going to get into the, uh, the finance side of
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independence, et cetera, in a bit, but, um, uh, that's interesting. Um, you've said
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that Alberta's independence or more broadly speaking, nationalist movement, because we have a spectrum
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as well. We've got hardline autonomists who want to still fly the Maple Leaf, but want as little control
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from how it was possible to people who are full independence, we've got a, we've got, we have a
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spectrum like yourselves. Yeah. Um, but you've said that Alberta's independence or nationalist movement,
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um, uh, benefits Quebec's independence movement. Um, but a lot of our independence movement is
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on different sets of issues as yours, which is perfectly normal. Yeah. I mean, Quebec's is,
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um, you know, I, I grew up with a pretty unfavorable view of Quebec and that's really
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changed over the years. Um, as I've come to understand Alberta struggle and also as I've come
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to Quebec, you know, when I visit Quebec city, I get such a different feeling there than it almost
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in the Anglo city. It's, it's a place where you can feel the history in the air, in the architecture.
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There, there is a old people with a culture worth preserving there. You can feel it. And,
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and I, uh, and I'm, I'm somewhat envious of it. I think, uh, Calgary is one, one of the very few
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other, you know, Quebec city and Calgary have a real unique sense of culture. I think Calgary
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is losing it very quickly, but I, I've come to understand, uh, Quebec's need to preserve what
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it has. Uh, sometimes that irks us in terms of how it flows out of its borders and from our
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perspective, some dull standards, but I've, I've come to very much understand the struggle you're
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having and why you do it. Um, but you know, our, our nationalist or independence movement, uh,
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is less cultural, more focused on economics, um, and fiscal issues. So when we fight about
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equalization, uh, and a large part of the bone we pick is with Quebec, how does even, because we're,
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we're picking a bone is largely in terms of, you know, we don't, we'll get into the numbers a bit.
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Uh, we don't want to be seen as subsidizing Quebec. We're angry at Quebec for opposing pipeline
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construction to get our products to market. How does us picking fights on fronts that are
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largely with Quebec benefit Quebec's nationalist movement? Well, I think one of the reasons why
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I'm in Calgary today is that I was kind of, um, tired of non-conversation that pertains to whether
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Alberta would make the same choices of Quebec than Quebec and vice versa and financial disputes
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that are all the consequences of a system that you didn't agree upon and I didn't agree upon.
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So from my standpoint, um, I don't want Alberta's money. I, um, think that if Quebec stopped sending
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90 billions a year to Ottawa for little services and a lot of dysfunctionality, a government that always
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contradicts our own government and always very too often for me, uh, a lot of waste, a lot of
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mismanagement. If we get rid of that, I mean, I don't want equalization payments. It's not good for
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our economy because getting money is the worst strategy in terms of entrepreneurship and the
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growth and economic value. But you have said, I don't know the exact words because I can't read
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or speak French, but, uh, so correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe you've said that Quebec isn't
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reliant on equalization from Alberta. Uh, but Alberta's contributed 67 billion to equalization since
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1957. Quebec is at least in gross terms, not per capita, but gross terms, the largest recipient.
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Yeah. Um, so I want to try to make sense with what you've said. You said we don't want equalization.
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No. And we're saying, um, Quebec is not reliant on equalization. Uh, I think I see those two as
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incongruent. Yeah. Um, I have a wonderful document. I might find it right now. So this is the finances
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of an independent Quebec. You have, uh, six economists from different universities in Quebec
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who oversaw the, the works. Basically what that says is that if you limit your analysis to equalization,
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if you limit your analysis to equalization payments, then you'll say this is a scandal and
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everything. But the, the way the federal government works is that it takes a lot of money out of our
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pockets. And then it just spends, it spends much more than what equalization payment is overall.
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Yeah. But we have to talk about total net, uh, in the net. So you have to look at investment,
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direct investment in the economy. You have to look at, uh, how the government, uh, the federal government,
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government investor does not invest in assets in infrastructure because it's very unequal
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depending, uh, and you have to look at how much there's obvious duplication and obvious waste.
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Because if you're in a scenario where Alberta is independent and Quebec is independent,
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you will not be spending for two ministers of health and you'll not be spending for doing two
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times the same thing and arguing about it because you disagree. You'll, you won't have that anymore.
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I agree with that. So they're with very, very conservative and prudent standards. We come to
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the conclusion that then, even though we wouldn't get equalization payments, other factors such as
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direct investment in the economy, other factors such as stopping this duplication in this waste and
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other factors such as having our own monetary strategy, our own international commerce strategy
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would make us more rich because the truth about equalization payments is that it hinders our
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economy, our entrepreneurship. The Canadian dollar is also very much related to oil and gas, which has
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an impact on our exports. So overall to say that Quebec at the level of wealth and productivity we have
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couldn't stand alone as a country is just undefendable. Obviously we will find a way, but it will be
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our strategy, our, our way, and we will not need foreign money. And, and I don't want to, but we will not
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take the contempt that goes with it too, because the public discourse on those, there is, it's just pure
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yeah. So is it good for us? No. So I'll be glad that all this stopped and you'll be glad.
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So, and then afterwards. Now, now we're talking Turkey. Yeah. And then afterwards we can sit down
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and say, okay, so now we decide for ourselves, we're responsible for ourselves. Uh, but are there
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fields or things that we really want to work together on a common framework? Cause it just makes sense.
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Yeah. And then you'll get something that is effective and useful, but the current federal government is just
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raising taxes and they weren't, they, they were not doing this before the first world war. They didn't
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need, they didn't need, but it's a source of power. You just raise taxes and then you use that money as
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power saying, Hey, you want something for your new university? Here's my requirement. You need to do
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this. You need DEI everywhere. You want something for your, uh, really learn to talk to Albertans.
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But it's, it's a huge debate in Quebec because it's, it's about freedom of research. And, and, and, uh,
00:27:37.880
sometimes I would even say, uh, false knowledge that is forced by the federal government who has
00:27:43.400
all sorts of requirements for money that is ours. They take it in our pocket and instead of sending it
00:27:49.720
back, so back, so for healthcare, we ask for 6 billion based on historical contributions of the
00:27:55.240
federal and our, and the healthcare systems, but they're so busy starting new programs and inventing
00:28:01.400
things. They don't have any more money for, for fundamentals such as healthcare. So are we better
00:28:07.560
off just keeping all the money in Quebec and just managing it? And if we make mistakes with it,
00:28:13.080
our responsibility, are we bidding better off in that system? Obviously, yes.
00:28:16.920
So, so, so is that available in English? I'd like to, uh, no, it was published in the official
00:28:23.640
language of, but, um, uh, figures are figures. So, so, uh, but you know, if, if you guys were able
00:28:31.480
to send me a digital version, I could run it through like Google translate. I think we can do
00:28:34.520
something. I'd be interested to see. Just calculations are calculations. Yeah. I, I'd be, uh, uh, I've been in
00:28:40.040
politics and I was the finest critic. You can make a calculation, say anything. One thing I want to say to
00:28:44.760
those listening to us who are interested in the independent, the possibility of the independence
00:28:48.840
of Alberta, bear in mind that when you're going to make calculations and obviously you're going to
00:28:54.840
come to the conclusion that if you stop sending money into Ottawa and you keep it here and you
00:28:59.240
make choices more aligned with your commercial strategy or industrial strategy, you'll be richer.
00:29:04.200
That will be the conclusion. What the agents of the regime, because I call them like that. So you'll
00:29:09.400
have agents of the federal regime everywhere in society that will say it's never going to work
00:29:15.160
and you should fear your freedom. You should fear your self-determination. It's going to be a disaster.
00:29:20.600
What they'll say is, oh, all the variables are not certain. So you say that this and that variable
00:29:28.040
is like that, but you have no certainty. But the trap here is what certainty had Justin Trudeau in power
00:29:36.040
in terms of economics for the past 10 years. What certainty Mark Carney has. I mean, we had zero
00:29:41.080
growth during 10 years based on really an ideological drift from immigration and commerce and economic
00:29:50.760
strategies. I mean, just so people understand, sound calculations will be met by the regime
00:29:59.640
with arguments on uncertainty of variables. The truth is, variables are always uncertain. What
00:30:07.080
counts is the fundamentals. Is the reasoning sound? Are the fundamentals solid? And then, of course,
00:30:13.960
things happen and things change in terms of context. But if your fundamentals make sense, obviously,
00:30:21.480
there are so many countries in the world. Obviously, countries get along and they make their own choice.
00:30:26.600
So I'm getting a better understanding of what you're saying.
00:30:31.880
That yes, Quebec is maybe a net recipient of federal dollars, but Ottawa is just so inefficient
00:30:39.320
and duplicative that independence, even without a net influx of federal dollars, you'd still be ahead.
00:30:47.800
Slightly ahead. That's what the figures say. Slightly better off.
00:30:50.760
But then you would have total autonomy to do it as you see fit.
00:30:55.000
Yeah. And, you know, you would have, I guess to kind of come back to what I was saying earlier,
00:31:01.080
you know, more autonomy or total independence to protect your culture, your way of life, language,
00:31:07.640
etc. When I'm having discussions about Alberta independence versus Quebec independence with people,
00:31:15.240
I use, it's an imperfect analogy, but I, you know, there are very different kinds of nationalism.
00:31:23.640
As I've said, Alberta's tends to be more civic nationalism, although defending our culture is
00:31:29.000
becoming an issue as mass migration becomes a huge issue. That's actually becoming an issue here now,
00:31:34.280
where it wasn't really previously. But, you know, I, I, I've, I've said that, you know, Quebec, for Quebec nationalists,
00:31:46.600
or people who might be in the middle on that, you know, their heart tells them independence, but their brain tells them Canada,
00:31:53.880
because, because of the, because of equalization, things like that. And you've made, and you've made your point on it.
00:31:58.120
Yeah, but I think it's the opposite. But I've said their, their brain will keep to the conclusion that we should be a country,
00:32:03.640
and then fear will come into play. So I would place it rather that way.
00:32:08.680
Yeah, I'm speaking very generally, and imperfectly. But I've said that, you know, Quebecers, because it's more of a cultural nationalism,
00:32:17.800
their hearts. Yeah, their hearts are in it, but their brains, and this might be the fear part,
00:32:25.480
the brains say, ah, it's uncertain, we're going to lose equalization, etc. So their brains say no.
00:32:31.240
And then in Alberta, it's the opposite. We broadly understand that we are massively subsidizing the
00:32:37.480
rest of Canada, that our brains say, we would be significantly better off as an independent country.
00:32:42.440
But our hearts, well, we're English-speaking Canadians. We, our hearts are in Canada,
00:32:48.600
but our brains are independent. So, so that it, you know, these are opposite.
00:32:52.200
They are, because in Quebec, the federal government is not there. It's very strange. Our government is in
00:33:00.440
Quebec City. It's the National Assembly. And the space for what happens in the House of Commons in Ottawa,
00:33:06.520
and the news cycle is, it's totally absent. It's, it's not there, because we don't feel it's our
00:33:13.320
government. And sometimes you hear Quebecers talking about money that the government of,
00:33:18.520
the federal government sends, or it's as if it's foreign money. We've been paying taxes, right?
00:33:24.600
Our brains are increasingly feeling like it's foreign.
00:33:26.120
Well, we just agreed that this was not healthy. What I want to say is that you are maybe entering
00:33:34.520
a new phase where you are now in Quebec's position, where you would like
00:33:40.920
something else than the Liberals in power. And then you realize it's not going to happen,
00:33:46.440
even in extreme circumstances. That's Quebec's situation with the Bloc Québécois for decades.
00:33:53.720
If we express what we want at the federal level, oftentimes, the vast majority of times,
00:34:01.320
the answer will be Bloc Québécois. That Bloc Québécois cannot rule, cannot be in power. It can
00:34:08.920
basically act as a defensive mechanism. Many of us are envious of the Bloc. Against
00:34:16.840
abuses of powers. And there are so many, so they do their best. But it's not sustainable. It's not
00:34:22.120
something you want forever. So the Bloc Québécois was meant to be a very short term mechanism.
00:34:27.560
So I'm not from Alberta, so I don't want to. But I imagine that after Trudeau,
00:34:35.960
Trudeau's government, if you end up that there's no alternative, there's no rotation,
00:34:42.600
it might trigger questions that we have for a long time. Thinking if we cannot have,
00:34:53.880
if we don't have any probabilities or reasonable rotation of what we think cures what we dislike
00:35:01.080
with, for instance, the Trudeau government, people will start asking themselves, okay,
00:35:06.280
so what are the other options? Because we're pretty not heard. We're pretty much out of the system.
00:35:14.040
And it's the case as well with judiciary power. So the more the judiciary power takes power over
00:35:20.040
democratic choices of parliaments, if those judges are almost all aligned with the Liberal Party of
00:35:27.560
Canada in terms of way of thinking and ideology, those questions exist in Quebec for decades.
00:35:33.560
They might become more present and relevant in Alberta, given what I've just mentioned,
00:35:47.720
We're limited on time, so I'm trying to figure out which one I want to get at. Your staff is going to
00:35:51.800
get angry at me if I go too far over. So maybe you could be a real short one on this.
00:35:56.200
Yes. Certain areas, part of my family comes from Bavaria in Germany. And Bavaria has a different
00:36:04.920
title that it calls itself. It's not just a lander, a state in Germany, it calls itself a free state,
00:36:09.880
Freistadt. I know you want independence, but as an interest, I've talked about Alberta should stop.
00:36:15.560
One thing I've really admired is Quebec, especially Quebec national politicians,
00:36:20.280
they never call Quebec a province. That's something I've picked up in the link.
00:36:23.480
But you know what province means? Conquered land.
00:36:27.400
Yeah. Oh, it comes from Provence, which was conquered by the Roman Republic.
00:36:32.200
So it's a conquered land. So of course, we don't consent to a conquered land.
00:36:36.360
I'm kind of letting slip in our style guide here. I've picked this up. I've taken a lot of the Quebec
00:36:40.920
language and I don't refer to Alberta and Saskatchewan as provinces as much as I can in our own pages here.
00:36:45.640
But sometimes the language gets different because they are provinces. So I've thought that Alberta and
00:36:52.600
Saskatchewan should unilaterally, even without changing the constitution, at least call themselves
00:36:59.000
a free state. It's the same power as a province. It is changing what Quebec calls itself. The symbolism
00:37:05.880
matters and the Quebec nationalist movement is decades ahead of Alberta. Would you, as an interim
00:37:11.160
step, do something like call Quebec a free state or something like that? It's a title change.
00:37:17.800
The problem we have right now is that at the pace things are going, the way the federal
00:37:23.560
policies are oriented and the impact it has in Quebec, the specificity of Quebec from a
00:37:31.000
linguistic and cultural point of view will not last for very long. A bit like what happened to
00:37:37.400
Francophones in every other province. We're losing it in English Canada, even.
00:37:41.480
Okay. So then you understand that in the history of the Parti Quebecois and you have that with the
00:37:47.880
CEQ that is the current government in Quebec, you'll have a tendency to say, what can we do that is
00:37:54.760
symbolic? But we know it's not going to change much, but at least we have our own party at that point.
00:38:01.160
You know, we'll say, oh, we did that. So we'll change unilaterally a part of the Canadian constitution
00:38:10.040
to say we're a nation. And then we'll say it's a historic moment and it's great. It's awesome. So
00:38:16.360
let's say we start calling ourselves free states. If we're not free and we haven't achieved any change
00:38:25.320
in a system that abuses powers over what should be ruled and decided by our respective parliaments,
00:38:34.440
what good do we get? I mean, what's so I don't oppose it. Of course, I will not never be against
00:38:40.280
initiatives that show that we're not a province in the sense of the Latin word. But I'm somewhere else
00:38:48.120
at this point because I don't think there's any future for French speaking Quebec if we don't get
00:38:54.920
out of Canada as soon as possible. So given that analysis or diagnosis I've made, don't expect the
00:39:04.600
government of the Parti Quebecois to do some things only because it looks good or feels good.
00:39:10.200
And I'm afraid that sometimes in symbolics, we're not going forward. You can be declining very,
00:39:17.640
very fast while making symbolics that feel good. And I think that's a good resume of what the CEQ has
00:39:24.280
done. It's huge decline under the CEQ in all respects, housing, French language, culture, but they've done
00:39:31.640
things like they have, they have done things that probably were in good faith, but the impact of those
00:39:37.960
things are not proportional to the level of challenge under Trudeau's government, under the
00:39:43.640
liberals. And I don't see things changing under Carney. It's the same people, the same mentality
00:39:49.400
of them deciding instead of us on fundamental things for our cultural and linguistic sustainability.
00:39:56.520
So I'm just going to fit one last question in before your staff member goes and pulls the plug
00:40:02.360
Sure. Well, she's not, she's not very aggressive.
00:40:05.000
She's very, she's friendly. She's not, she's, she seems nice. Um, you know, as I've said,
00:40:11.800
Alberta and Quebec both want decentralization and more power at home, but we tend to want different
00:40:18.520
kinds, Quebec, more cultural, uh, Alberta, more physical, but we, we do to some extent we both.
00:40:24.440
Yeah. And things are changing. I mean, yeah, I increasingly want more here. Uh, immigration is
00:40:29.560
not just a fiscal issue. Now it is very much a social issue. And, um, uh, so, you know,
00:40:36.200
we've talked about where, so building those alliances I find has pretty, you know, the,
00:40:40.600
the, the two big decentralist provinces, to use a dirty word. Um, but we've wanted different kinds
00:40:47.160
and I, and in large measure, that is why Meech Lake and especially Charlottetown accords failed.
00:40:52.040
Um, you know, Quebec and Alberta were the two leading areas of Canada that voted down
00:40:57.560
Charlottetown, but we voted it down for very different reasons. Uh, Albertans and Westerners
00:41:03.720
broadly voted it down, uh, because it was seen as, uh, creating asymmetrical federalism,
00:41:10.680
giving special deals to Quebec. Uh, and there was also some first nations issues in it. There was,
00:41:14.840
you know, it was a huge, huge agreement. Um, and, but we voted it down for one set of reasons,
00:41:20.040
seeing it being seen as overly appeasing Quebec, Quebecers voted it down, at least as I perceive it as
00:41:26.200
it didn't go far enough in defending Quebec's culture and autonomy.
00:41:32.680
I know you prefer independence. Uh, I prefer independence. Um, but I mean, you've tried twice,
00:41:40.200
didn't work. We, we haven't even had a shot at it. And even then we'd have a, it's a long shot for us to
00:41:44.840
achieve it. Yeah. Failing independence. Is there some kind of grand bargain? We call it Charlottetown
00:41:59.400
two that could, uh, okay. Poor us. Yeah. But like if failing independence, if independence is not
00:42:08.200
successful, is there a kind of grand bargain from your perspective that you think you could make
00:42:15.640
that would make, uh, the Quebec nation happy and content within Canada that would work for you?
00:42:25.880
To the question, what does Quebec want? The answer is clear, crystal clear. Quebec wants self-determination,
00:42:33.320
democratic self-determination. Why? Because it's the only model that gives a future to our specificity,
00:42:41.400
linguistic and cultural. Other financial reasons have joined the reasons, but basically that's it. So,
00:42:55.640
federal prime ministers engaged into such complicated negotiations and talks
00:43:02.680
was that they felt there was a direct threat to their power
00:43:07.320
and their regime. They didn't do that in good faith because they just like to improve the life
00:43:13.080
of Quebecers or Albertans. So, it might happen that as Quebec's sovereignty movement,
00:43:20.280
independence movement, grows in strength, and probably Alberta's same movement grows in strength,
00:43:26.360
in good faith. You'll find federal politicians nervous saying, okay, let's renegotiate in good faith.
00:43:35.880
I think we've been through that and anything under self-determination in terms of our laws,
00:43:41.480
our finances and international relations will not work for Quebec because it will not work for our
00:43:49.080
linguistic, cultural, and financial specificity. However, once it's done, so once Quebec declares
00:43:58.760
independence, I think if Alberta declares independence, Quebec will follow, same here,
00:44:04.360
vice versa. If Quebec goes, I think Alberta will say, okay, I'm also independent. In which case,
00:44:13.880
we will talk to each other about what framework would be useful on a number of topics,
00:44:20.280
but without the federal trying to grab money and grab power and defend their privileges, without them,
00:44:27.640
without interference and constant abuse of power since 1667, a constitution that we never voted or agreed
00:44:34.760
upon, it's in direct link. It's really about the colonial regime for Quebec. So, I think it's the other way
00:44:45.240
around. You become independent and a bit like Norway and Sweden or Slovakia and Czech Republic or in many,
00:44:52.600
like, of course, in the following days, I will not be wanting to negotiate with the federal.
00:45:01.080
I will want to negotiate with other provinces who think actually mostly the same thing as I do
00:45:06.680
about how it should work. It doesn't mean we agree on our priorities, but we agree that a framework
00:45:13.000
that would respect our respective, would show respect to our respective parliaments is much
00:45:19.480
better than abuse of power based on an old and dysfunctional constitution. And you have to add to
00:45:26.760
that that we were, during the patriation of the 1982 constitution, we were totally out of it. It's just
00:45:35.480
the end of the contempt is a better start for a new framework than trying to deal with people who have
00:45:44.200
have been abusing their powers, begging them to stop abusing their powers. And take the immigration
00:45:50.600
situation. So, Justin Trudeau out of the blue, but not out of the blue. You had a group called the
00:45:56.120
Century Initiative on Bay Street. They decided that we need to be 100 million Canadians based on whatever
00:46:02.920
fluke economics. They don't consult anyone. They just start doing this by saying, hey, come to Roxham.
00:46:09.800
And they changed the criteria at the airport. They really sabotaged our immigration system that was
00:46:17.720
working well. They were warned by provinces. They were warned by their own public servants. You will
00:46:23.960
create the worst housing crisis we've seen in decades. Don't do it. And they did it anyway. So why would
00:46:31.000
I negotiate with these people? Why would I give them legitimacy? They're abusing their power and they're
00:46:38.520
toxic for the public good in Quebec. And I think many Albertans are starting to think the same in
00:46:45.640
regards of their conception of public good in Alberta. So I'd rather have independence. And then we make a
00:46:52.920
deal and we talk because I expect collaboration to be ongoing on so many things. Simply, we're used to it.
00:46:59.960
And there are so many things we can work. And that's why I'm here. So just to say, by the way,
00:47:05.080
the door is open. We have many things to talk about. But going through a new Charlottetown or a
00:47:11.880
new Meech Lake, I just don't see where it could lead that is positive. I just don't see it.
00:47:18.440
Okay. Well, I'm just going to sneak one last one because it's really quick. You've convinced me on a lot
00:47:23.880
of things. So when you have that third referendum on independence, are you going to let Albertans vote in it?
00:47:28.360
Yeah. Well, you know that the federal government cheated on the second referendum by bringing in
00:47:35.240
people that were not from Quebec in order them to vote in a result that was so close.
00:47:40.040
Yeah. So among the things that maybe people listening to us in Alberta don't know.
00:47:45.160
I mean, they arrested members of the Parti Québécois. They stolen the list of members.
00:47:52.200
They cheated during the patriation of the Constitution. They cheated during the referendums.
00:47:57.480
They, I mean, at some point, yes, there could be some kind of solidarity or some common understanding
00:48:06.280
of the fact that serving genuine democracy is serving public good. And that's why when you're
00:48:13.640
asking me about how the federal will react in terms of Clarity Act and so on, there's been so many instances
00:48:19.720
where the federal cheated and was dishonest. So I don't expect anything else. And yes, some form of
00:48:29.080
collaboration on the fundamentals would be useful. And I think that's why I'm here. I'm just
00:48:36.760
your self-determination in Alberta is yours to determine. It's yours to decide. And if you feel you
00:48:43.000
have a common identity and common interests that are worth becoming a country, good for you. And it's
00:48:50.200
not for me to have a judgment on it. But if I can be useful to democracy or if we can be useful to our
00:48:58.440
both our interests, economic interests in the short term and so on, why not talk instead of being in that
00:49:05.960
weird equalization and federal framework where nobody agrees because the interests are just not
00:49:12.200
compatible and the abuse of power is so constant, it creates frustration. So I think in a way,
00:49:17.960
the reason I'm here is exactly that. So we can talk at least and see what positive could come
00:49:26.200
in the next decades, given the decade we just experimented under the liberals, federal liberals.
00:49:32.440
Well, I think there's been a fascinating conversation. I think this is the kind of conversation,
00:49:38.040
the whole dynamic of it is not something that Quebecers, Albertans, Westerners or Canadians
00:49:43.560
broadly are very used to. So I really appreciate you coming in.
00:49:46.920
And I salute all of those who listened and I might be back. So there'll be other opportunities to think
00:49:55.160
about this. Our invitation is open. We'd love to have you back. Thank you very much.
00:49:59.000
My pleasure. Thank you. All right. That's Paul St-Pierre Plomondon, leader of the Parti Québécois,
00:50:10.920
sharing his thoughts. Thank you very much for joining us. Remember, if you're not yet a member
00:50:15.240
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00:50:20.440
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