Western Standard - FILDEBRANDT： The independence question： Parallels between Quebec and Alberta

00:00:00.000 I'm Derek Fildebrand, publisher of the Western Standard. Today is September 11th, 2025.

00:00:17.740 Today I'm joined by Paul St. Pierre Plamondon, better known as PSPP. He is the leader of the

00:00:25.760 Parti Quebecois. He took over the leadership of that party when it was down to just three seats and at

00:00:32.840 its lowest level of support ever, but has since grown it to the first place in the polls and is

00:00:39.220 widely considered to be the frontrunner to become the next Premier of Quebec. He is in Alberta right

00:00:46.880 now. Just this morning he was speaking at the University of Calgary, speaking about the

00:00:53.200 challenges of Quebec and where there might be alignment and some commonality with Alberta

00:00:57.620 and the West. His team reached out to us and I think it was a fantastic opportunity to speak

00:01:04.920 to someone outside of our normal comfort zone, outside of our bubble, getting a different

00:01:09.520 perspective on the kinds of issues we face in the West from someone who leads a party trying

00:01:15.880 to address the similar-ish challenges that they have in Quebec. Paul, thank you very much

00:01:24.640 for joining.

00:01:25.140 My pleasure.

00:01:27.540 So I'll pick up kind of from our pre-camera conversation.

00:01:31.660 Yeah.

00:01:33.220 You know, I think outside of Quebec, there is an extremely simplistic understanding of the

00:01:39.140 party Quebec law and in most provinces, the politics are lined up broadly along a left-right

00:01:48.980 spectrum. You know, NDP, liberal, conservative, you know, fit green in there in some provinces,

00:01:54.260 sometimes not. In Quebec, its politics have, at least since the quiet revolution in the 60s,

00:01:59.860 been defined along a more nationalist, federalist axis and, you know, there's places to go along

00:02:07.000 that. But it's also still got left-right that does play into it, just not as neatly as in

00:02:15.260 other places. In Alberta, the nationalist, federalist spectrum lines up very neatly on

00:02:24.440 a left-right, because, you know, because our nationalist movement is not so much based on

00:02:31.080 culture, language, that kind of thing. It's more of an economic and civic nationalist thing.

00:02:37.000 So, I don't know, maybe if you could just start with, you know, where does, how should an

00:02:43.680 English Canadian understand the party Quebec law?

00:02:46.260 Let's try the, let's give it a shot. I think you're correct. So the Parti Québécois is a party

00:02:53.740 founded upon a willingness of the population in Quebec for self-determination.

00:03:00.580 So what it is about is democracy and making our own choices, not sending money to Ottawa for them,

00:03:09.440 with only 20% of the seats, for them to decide what we ought to do with that money.

00:03:14.740 It's particular, of course, in the case of Quebec, you're correct to say that the linguistic and

00:03:19.100 cultural aspect of it is important, because if you can't make your own policies and spend your own

00:03:25.320 money where you think it belongs, you will see very important challenges in terms of sustaining,

00:03:33.280 having durability for the French language, the Quebec culture, but it goes also to emigration,

00:03:38.940 the place of the judiciary power that is always, almost always aligned with the Liberal Party of

00:03:44.460 Canada. So we'll not rule in favor of what would have been the democratic choice of Quebec.

00:03:50.060 So you have several topics where the democratic will of Quebecers is overruled by a federal government

00:03:58.340 that tends to abuse its powers by spending in fields that should be the fields of the provinces.

00:04:06.400 In terms of right and left, Quebec in general tend to be centrist. So you'll see if you compare to

00:04:13.360 France, England, United States, elsewhere, there is radical left and there is radical right.

00:04:19.800 But the behavior in general is more towards the center. Parti Québécois has had periods where it was

00:04:28.280 quite to the left, other periods that were qualified as more to the right of the center. But it's always

00:04:35.660 close to the center, you can say that. And as for the current Parti Québécois, it will be now five years

00:04:42.080 this fall that I'm the leader of the Parti Québécois. I think you could say we're anti-radical left,

00:04:48.100 social democrats, which is, which is... You don't say moderate left? It's... Yeah, you could say

00:04:55.140 moderate left. And sometimes we're right. So it's very difficult to read from a more standard left-right

00:05:01.960 spectrum because of many factors. But one model that I think would be comparable is a few Scandinavian

00:05:08.680 countries who came to the conclusion that radical left ideas had the catastrophic impact on their

00:05:16.360 social peace and on their services and so on. And yet they are pursuing the idea that it should be a

00:05:24.100 free, a market-based free market society where the richer will contribute to a safety net to services

00:05:31.440 that are available to everyone. So that's what I would call social democracy, not the same than socialist,

00:05:37.560 socialist, because socialist is not believing in free market. And yet a very strong criticism from my part

00:05:44.360 of the direction Canada took under Trudeau, not only the abuse of power, but the ideology, the

00:05:52.600 counterproductive ideology during that period. And it's still on. I think under Carney, it's still the same

00:05:59.880 people and the same ideas, I think. So nationalism is, broadly speaking, on the right, sorry, within

00:06:10.680 the Western civilization, generally associated with the right. But for lack of a better term,

00:06:18.680 subnational nationalism is more often than not associated with the left, but not always. You know, if we look at,

00:06:28.360 say, the Scottish National Party, it's a left party. Yeah.

00:06:32.440 Um, uh, you know, uh, in Catalonia, uh, you know, the, the independence and autonomous movements in

00:06:39.800 Catalonia associated with the left. Um, uh, and then in Quebec, imperfectly, but I think it's broadly

00:06:48.360 associated a bit with the left. Uh, Alberta is different where it's, it's almost uniform, like, you know,

00:06:55.480 among, uh, United Conservative Party supporters in Alberta, 66% support independence, 33% are opposed.

00:07:02.680 But then among NDP supporters, it's 99% are federalists.

00:07:07.560 Which, which from Quebec's perspective is incomprehensible. Because if your pretension

00:07:14.520 is that you should have funding for services to the population and that safety net could be better,

00:07:22.680 why would you send a substantial part of your income tax to a government that just duplicates or is

00:07:31.400 wasting your money, giving you very few services in return? Why would you do that? So, so, so, um,

00:07:40.680 yeah, I, I, I, I don't understand that.

00:07:43.160 I, I agree. But I think from their perspective, um,

00:07:46.280 think of the left in Alberta, the way we would think of Anglophones in Quebec, they're a minority and

00:07:54.440 they rely on the national government to protect them. That if Alberta was its own country, uh,

00:08:00.440 the left would be permanently shut out of power and it would have overall less influence, that they

00:08:05.720 use Ottawa to counter, uh, the Alberta government. I, I think that's, that's from their, from their

00:08:10.760 perspective.

00:08:10.840 I don't think it's a valid argument, but, uh, it's for them, it's for them to decide.

00:08:16.040 I'm trying to speak on their behalf, which is obviously a subpar. Um,

00:08:21.240 right. So you've said you're committed, uh, if you form the Parti Quebecois under your leadership

00:08:25.640 forms government, you're holding a third referendum on sovereignty. Um, I think you've been pretty

00:08:31.000 unambiguous about it. It's not, uh, as Lucien Bouchard said, not waiting for winning conditions.

00:08:37.160 It's we're, we're gonna do it. Um, but what sovereignty or independence means is, um,

00:08:47.240 sometimes ambiguous. The, uh, the first two referendum questions were, were criticized for

00:08:52.200 being ambiguous, not very clear cut, uh, in Alberta. Uh, I, if I can give myself a little

00:08:58.680 credit, the Western standard, I think is imported a lot of the language around independence and sovereignty

00:09:04.280 from Quebec. Um, when we say independence in Alberta, we mean a Republic of Alberta or, or I

00:09:13.240 guess technically could be another constitution, but it would be a, a separate independent country

00:09:18.280 completely on its own, severed, uh, from all direct state ties from Canada. Yeah. Um, it's, it's exactly

00:09:26.840 the same right now for the Parti Quebecois. Yeah. Now, Daniel Smith has also talked about sovereignty

00:09:31.800 within Canada, um, with more independence, but not the term independent. But when, when you say

00:09:37.880 sovereignty, are, are, are you talking about, uh, some kind of sovereignty association or is it like,

00:09:44.120 no, there's a Republic of Quebec and it is its own country. I say independence. That's it. Um, and

00:09:50.040 here's what's, what's going to happen if Alberta, uh, continues in the sovereignty association

00:09:57.080 model, or at least discourse. That discourse will be met in Ottawa with, it's giving Ottawa power to

00:10:06.200 respond by saying, oh, you think we'll collaborate? You think it will go well? It's going to be terrible.

00:10:12.040 And then the fear takes all the place because you're dependent on the interpretation of a

00:10:20.760 regime that feels, uh, threatened or that feels there might be losing powers, so they will not help you.

00:10:29.080 So, uh, I think I've, I've never discussed, I work with, uh, uh, the people, uh, very close to

00:10:36.920 René Lévesque, uh, that were very close to René Lévesque. I never understood why they, they came to

00:10:42.600 that idea of sovereignty. That means that you're still, that you're not really independent. But when

00:10:46.920 I mean independent, I mean a country with a hundred percent of their capacity from a financial

00:10:52.200 standpoint, from a law standpoint, and from a standpoint of foreign relations. Now, once you're

00:10:58.600 a country and you have those foreign relations, nothing is preventing you from making a deal or

00:11:03.160 inventing a framework with another independent province that say, I think we might, I think we

00:11:08.440 should work on this together. We have a common interest. The difference in that model is that you

00:11:14.280 respect the democracy and the legitimacy of both those parliaments. Whereas the current model is

00:11:21.400 an illegitimate government that will tell you, based on not much, because oftentimes they're

00:11:29.800 ultra virus of their own constitution. They will tell you how it should be done and your voice will

00:11:34.760 not be heard, which is pretty much anti-democratic. So I think independence is, it's important to have

00:11:41.240 that word or that name because it's within independence that you have foreign relations. And

00:11:46.760 once you have foreign relations, you can set a deal based on your own will, based on self-determination,

00:11:53.400 democratic self-determination is very different from the current model. And I don't see Canada

00:11:58.360 stopping ever the abuse of powers that we've seen over and over, over so many decades. Human nature

00:12:07.960 never leaves power on the table. They might make a deal with you and be nice with you right now. If

00:12:14.040 they see that Alberta's independence project is getting serious, they might give you a few presents and

00:12:21.240 give you a break for a while. But once your autonomous government will be out and will be replaced by a

00:12:26.840 more federalist government, it will start again. That's the history of the Parti Québécois. The

00:12:32.360 irony with our party is that it's when the Parti Québécois is in power that we make the most gains

00:12:39.000 from the federal government. So people are just, it's working. But it's not because as soon as you're out of

00:12:45.160 power, the overall picture is that we've been in decline in terms of invasion of the federal in our

00:12:53.160 fields of competence, but also decline of the French language, the decline of our culture in our

00:13:00.920 many aspects that are important for us.

00:13:03.480 So, uh, if I don't know if you've announced the wording of what your question would be,

00:13:08.760 but I mean, so you're saying that this, the third referendum is going to have a clear question.

00:13:14.600 It's something along the lines of should Alberta become an independent country? That's it. Like,

00:13:20.200 that's it. Yeah. Okay. Well, I should address the first part of the Clarity Act.

00:13:27.640 No, no, no, it will not. It will not because the federal government is not, has not done the Clarity

00:13:34.040 Act and has not tried to get the judicial power. I know I made a can of worms as soon as I said that.

00:13:38.840 But they've not done all that because they worry about fairness. They worry about keeping their

00:13:44.680 power, their regime. So I do not expect them to stop at this. They'll find something else to say

00:13:53.240 at the end that they don't recognize it and that it doesn't work. They were not. So they lied during

00:13:59.000 the referendum of 94. They lied on several things, but they lied on the idea that they will recognize

00:14:04.760 the result. They said that during the campaign, but we know for a fact from declarations afterwards,

00:14:11.640 one of Jean Chrétien, that they were not going to recognize it. And so abuse of power doesn't stop

00:14:17.000 overnight. And I'm not naive about it, but to answer your question, yes, it's about independence

00:14:23.880 and the question will be very to the point. Okay. Well, since we opened the Clarity Act can of worms,

00:14:29.880 uh, I guess we'll go down up a little bit. Um, you know, I, uh, I think the only two, uh, places

00:14:41.320 in Canada as it's currently constituted where there's any kind of number of people who have

00:14:46.360 actually really looked into it is in Quebec and Alberta because we're the ones who would have to

00:14:51.320 deal with it. Um, you know, I, I've, I generally thought the first two points of the Clarity Act

00:14:56.920 are reasonable, a clear question, clear majority. Okay. I mean, that's pretty hard to disagree with,

00:15:01.480 but it's after that where it just says, but even the clear majority, it's just that could get hazy.

00:15:07.160 I generally say it's, it's written abuse of power all over it because I mean, what's democracy if

00:15:12.760 it's not to win or to lose in power with 35% of the vote, sometimes any, and he gets almost all the

00:15:17.800 power. So what's clear majority? There are defensive mechanisms to keep power, but we're the,

00:15:23.160 the big problematic area to me is where, where I've seen is that, okay, say Alberta or Quebec

00:15:29.080 had a clear question and a clear majority. Let's just say it's an argument. It was 80% overwhelming.

00:15:33.560 You know, no one's going to get that, but let's just say that. Um, but then all it does is oblige

00:15:39.800 Ottawa to negotiate and you would need unanimity of all the other provinces and Ottawa together.

00:15:45.720 And at that point, I feel like it's designed by design, uh, to just bog us down in negotiations and

00:15:54.120 they can make unreasonable demands of that or unreasonable demands of Alberta and say,

00:15:58.440 well, you know, we're just not agreeing to it. And that leads to two possible outcomes at that point,

00:16:05.640 which is either we just give up on it and accept status quo despite what people have voted for or

00:16:13.640 the magic word, you know, a unilateral declaration of independence. Of course. Uh, is that something

00:16:20.680 you're prepared to do in the event where you enter into negotiations, which would be reasonable, but

00:16:25.000 those negotiations are maybe not in good faith. Would a government after a successful referendum on

00:16:31.000 independence and negotiations breaking down is a unilateral declaration of independence, something

00:16:37.160 you would, uh, be prepared to make. Um, the whole question here is legitimacy of a government

00:16:46.520 that controls or nominates the judicial power and that will not let it happen and will find any reason

00:16:54.920 or excuse not to recognize the legitimacy of that change. And that change is currently being

00:17:00.120 discussed in Alberta and Quebec and might be discussed elsewhere, um, depending on how, uh, where this leads.

00:17:07.560 I don't find myself obliged by a regime that I don't find legitimate. My only loyalty is towards my people

00:17:20.760 who elected me. The rest for me is a foreign regime out of a colonial mentality and framework. And so 0.77

00:17:30.120 when I refused to give an oath to the King of England, people told me, oh, the constitution won't let

00:17:35.960 you. And I was just, I don't care. I mean, what legitimacy for that constitution? If Quebec never agreed to it,

00:17:44.840 it's clearly the out, the spinoff of the colonial regime and the willingness to make Francophones a minority

00:17:53.480 in that new ensemble. Why should I accept to lie and give my loyalty to a foreign king just because you tell me a constitution

00:18:03.320 that is illegitimate tells me so. So I didn't decide to, to put a knee down and, and, and to make that oath. I just

00:18:09.720 continued. And I said, this is not legitimate. So legitimacy in democracy is much more important than, um,

00:18:19.480 um, um, legal documents that actually were never consented upon by the different members of that

00:18:30.520 ensemble. So, so that's, that's where declaring the independence of Quebec, if I have a majority of my

00:18:36.360 people supporting me is not only, uh, what, uh, what I'm going to do. It's my devoir. It's my obligation,

00:18:44.200 because I know that there's no future. The policies of Canada are working against Quebec's interest in

00:18:51.080 so many ways. There's no future for French speaking with a Quebec culture. Uh, that kind of Quebec will 1.00

00:18:57.880 not exist in a hundred years if I don't do anything. And financially speaking, I don't want charity from

00:19:04.360 any other province. And I don't feel it's normal to send almost half of my tax income to a government

00:19:11.240 that duplicates or wastes the money I've gained. I disagree with that. So, so legitimacy, I think,

00:19:18.120 is really important in understanding what's coming, whether it comes from Alberta or it comes from

00:19:23.480 Quebec, because otherwise you see it from other governments in the world. Like there's, there's no end

00:19:28.680 to being in bad faith using legal instruments that you've created yourself to protect yourself and

00:19:34.120 protect your power. I mean, democracy is much more about popular legitimacy than, uh, a power that

00:19:41.080 tries to hold on to, uh, what they have. Uh, I'm going to get into the, uh, the finance side of

00:19:47.640 independence, et cetera, in a bit, but, um, uh, that's interesting. Um, you've said

00:19:55.480 that Alberta's independence or more broadly speaking, nationalist movement, because we have a spectrum

00:20:00.600 as well. We've got hardline autonomists who want to still fly the Maple Leaf, but want as little control

00:20:06.680 from how it was possible to people who are full independence, we've got a, we've got, we have a

00:20:10.680 spectrum like yourselves. Yeah. Um, but you've said that Alberta's independence or nationalist movement,

00:20:17.640 um, uh, benefits Quebec's independence movement. Um, but a lot of our independence movement is

00:20:27.400 on different sets of issues as yours, which is perfectly normal. Yeah. I mean, Quebec's is,

00:20:33.720 um, you know, I, I grew up with a pretty unfavorable view of Quebec and that's really

00:20:40.680 changed over the years. Um, as I've come to understand Alberta struggle and also as I've come

00:20:45.560 to Quebec, you know, when I visit Quebec city, I get such a different feeling there than it almost

00:20:51.640 in the Anglo city. It's, it's a place where you can feel the history in the air, in the architecture.

00:20:59.720 There, there is a old people with a culture worth preserving there. You can feel it. And,

00:21:05.960 and I, uh, and I'm, I'm somewhat envious of it. I think, uh, Calgary is one, one of the very few

00:21:12.520 other, you know, Quebec city and Calgary have a real unique sense of culture. I think Calgary

00:21:17.560 is losing it very quickly, but I, I've come to understand, uh, Quebec's need to preserve what

00:21:23.800 it has. Uh, sometimes that irks us in terms of how it flows out of its borders and from our

00:21:28.440 perspective, some dull standards, but I've, I've come to very much understand the struggle you're

00:21:32.760 having and why you do it. Um, but you know, our, our nationalist or independence movement, uh,

00:21:40.680 is less cultural, more focused on economics, um, and fiscal issues. So when we fight about

00:21:48.200 equalization, uh, and a large part of the bone we pick is with Quebec, how does even, because we're,

00:21:55.400 we're picking a bone is largely in terms of, you know, we don't, we'll get into the numbers a bit.

00:22:01.880 Uh, we don't want to be seen as subsidizing Quebec. We're angry at Quebec for opposing pipeline

00:22:07.320 construction to get our products to market. How does us picking fights on fronts that are

00:22:12.760 largely with Quebec benefit Quebec's nationalist movement? Well, I think one of the reasons why

00:22:21.960 I'm in Calgary today is that I was kind of, um, tired of non-conversation that pertains to whether

00:22:31.880 Alberta would make the same choices of Quebec than Quebec and vice versa and financial disputes 0.90

00:22:39.800 that are all the consequences of a system that you didn't agree upon and I didn't agree upon.

00:22:46.840 So from my standpoint, um, I don't want Alberta's money. I, um, think that if Quebec stopped sending

00:22:57.480 90 billions a year to Ottawa for little services and a lot of dysfunctionality, a government that always

00:23:06.680 contradicts our own government and always very too often for me, uh, a lot of waste, a lot of

00:23:13.480 mismanagement. If we get rid of that, I mean, I don't want equalization payments. It's not good for

00:23:19.160 our economy because getting money is the worst strategy in terms of entrepreneurship and the

00:23:26.280 growth and economic value. But you have said, I don't know the exact words because I can't read

00:23:32.120 or speak French, but, uh, so correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe you've said that Quebec isn't

00:23:38.200 reliant on equalization from Alberta. Uh, but Alberta's contributed 67 billion to equalization since

00:23:43.640 1957. Quebec is at least in gross terms, not per capita, but gross terms, the largest recipient.

00:23:49.640 Yeah. Um, so I want to try to make sense with what you've said. You said we don't want equalization.

00:23:55.800 No. And we're saying, um, Quebec is not reliant on equalization. Uh, I think I see those two as

00:24:02.680 incongruent. Yeah. Um, I have a wonderful document. I might find it right now. So this is the finances

00:24:11.640 of an independent Quebec. You have, uh, six economists from different universities in Quebec

00:24:17.400 who oversaw the, the works. Basically what that says is that if you limit your analysis to equalization,

00:24:27.560 if you limit your analysis to equalization payments, then you'll say this is a scandal and

00:24:32.440 everything. But the, the way the federal government works is that it takes a lot of money out of our

00:24:38.280 pockets. And then it just spends, it spends much more than what equalization payment is overall.

00:24:44.600 Yeah. But we have to talk about total net, uh, in the net. So you have to look at investment,

00:24:49.400 direct investment in the economy. You have to look at, uh, how the government, uh, the federal government,

00:24:55.800 government investor does not invest in assets in infrastructure because it's very unequal

00:25:02.280 depending, uh, and you have to look at how much there's obvious duplication and obvious waste.

00:25:10.360 Because if you're in a scenario where Alberta is independent and Quebec is independent,

00:25:16.200 you will not be spending for two ministers of health and you'll not be spending for doing two

00:25:22.920 times the same thing and arguing about it because you disagree. You'll, you won't have that anymore.

00:25:27.000 I agree with that. So they're with very, very conservative and prudent standards. We come to

00:25:32.120 the conclusion that then, even though we wouldn't get equalization payments, other factors such as

00:25:39.880 direct investment in the economy, other factors such as stopping this duplication in this waste and

00:25:46.600 other factors such as having our own monetary strategy, our own international commerce strategy

00:25:53.880 would make us more rich because the truth about equalization payments is that it hinders our

00:25:59.560 economy, our entrepreneurship. The Canadian dollar is also very much related to oil and gas, which has

00:26:07.240 an impact on our exports. So overall to say that Quebec at the level of wealth and productivity we have

00:26:15.080 couldn't stand alone as a country is just undefendable. Obviously we will find a way, but it will be

00:26:22.600 our strategy, our, our way, and we will not need foreign money. And, and I don't want to, but we will not

00:26:31.800 take the contempt that goes with it too, because the public discourse on those, there is, it's just pure

00:26:39.080 yeah. So is it good for us? No. So I'll be glad that all this stopped and you'll be glad.

00:26:45.560 So, and then afterwards. Now, now we're talking Turkey. Yeah. And then afterwards we can sit down

00:26:51.080 and say, okay, so now we decide for ourselves, we're responsible for ourselves. Uh, but are there

00:26:57.640 fields or things that we really want to work together on a common framework? Cause it just makes sense.

00:27:03.800 Yeah. And then you'll get something that is effective and useful, but the current federal government is just

00:27:08.520 raising taxes and they weren't, they, they were not doing this before the first world war. They didn't

00:27:14.840 need, they didn't need, but it's a source of power. You just raise taxes and then you use that money as

00:27:20.040 power saying, Hey, you want something for your new university? Here's my requirement. You need to do

00:27:25.000 this. You need DEI everywhere. You want something for your, uh, really learn to talk to Albertans.

00:27:30.520 But it's, it's a huge debate in Quebec because it's, it's about freedom of research. And, and, and, uh,

00:27:37.880 sometimes I would even say, uh, false knowledge that is forced by the federal government who has

00:27:43.400 all sorts of requirements for money that is ours. They take it in our pocket and instead of sending it

00:27:49.720 back, so back, so for healthcare, we ask for 6 billion based on historical contributions of the

00:27:55.240 federal and our, and the healthcare systems, but they're so busy starting new programs and inventing

00:28:01.400 things. They don't have any more money for, for fundamentals such as healthcare. So are we better

00:28:07.560 off just keeping all the money in Quebec and just managing it? And if we make mistakes with it,

00:28:13.080 our responsibility, are we bidding better off in that system? Obviously, yes.

00:28:16.920 So, so, so is that available in English? I'd like to, uh, no, it was published in the official

00:28:23.640 language of, but, um, uh, figures are figures. So, so, uh, but you know, if, if you guys were able

00:28:31.480 to send me a digital version, I could run it through like Google translate. I think we can do

00:28:34.520 something. I'd be interested to see. Just calculations are calculations. Yeah. I, I'd be, uh, uh, I've been in

00:28:40.040 politics and I was the finest critic. You can make a calculation, say anything. One thing I want to say to

00:28:44.760 those listening to us who are interested in the independent, the possibility of the independence

00:28:48.840 of Alberta, bear in mind that when you're going to make calculations and obviously you're going to

00:28:54.840 come to the conclusion that if you stop sending money into Ottawa and you keep it here and you

00:28:59.240 make choices more aligned with your commercial strategy or industrial strategy, you'll be richer.

00:29:04.200 That will be the conclusion. What the agents of the regime, because I call them like that. So you'll

00:29:09.400 have agents of the federal regime everywhere in society that will say it's never going to work

00:29:15.160 and you should fear your freedom. You should fear your self-determination. It's going to be a disaster.

00:29:20.600 What they'll say is, oh, all the variables are not certain. So you say that this and that variable

00:29:28.040 is like that, but you have no certainty. But the trap here is what certainty had Justin Trudeau in power

00:29:36.040 in terms of economics for the past 10 years. What certainty Mark Carney has. I mean, we had zero

00:29:41.080 growth during 10 years based on really an ideological drift from immigration and commerce and economic

00:29:50.760 strategies. I mean, just so people understand, sound calculations will be met by the regime

00:29:59.640 with arguments on uncertainty of variables. The truth is, variables are always uncertain. What

00:30:07.080 counts is the fundamentals. Is the reasoning sound? Are the fundamentals solid? And then, of course,

00:30:13.960 things happen and things change in terms of context. But if your fundamentals make sense, obviously,

00:30:21.480 there are so many countries in the world. Obviously, countries get along and they make their own choice.

00:30:26.600 So I'm getting a better understanding of what you're saying.

00:30:31.880 That yes, Quebec is maybe a net recipient of federal dollars, but Ottawa is just so inefficient

00:30:39.320 and duplicative that independence, even without a net influx of federal dollars, you'd still be ahead.

00:30:47.800 Slightly ahead. That's what the figures say. Slightly better off.

00:30:50.760 But then you would have total autonomy to do it as you see fit.

00:30:54.040 Our own strategy.

00:30:55.000 Yeah. And, you know, you would have, I guess to kind of come back to what I was saying earlier,

00:31:01.080 you know, more autonomy or total independence to protect your culture, your way of life, language,

00:31:07.640 etc. When I'm having discussions about Alberta independence versus Quebec independence with people,

00:31:15.240 I use, it's an imperfect analogy, but I, you know, there are very different kinds of nationalism.

00:31:23.640 As I've said, Alberta's tends to be more civic nationalism, although defending our culture is

00:31:29.000 becoming an issue as mass migration becomes a huge issue. That's actually becoming an issue here now,

00:31:34.280 where it wasn't really previously. But, you know, I, I, I've, I've said that, you know, Quebec, for Quebec nationalists,

00:31:46.600 or people who might be in the middle on that, you know, their heart tells them independence, but their brain tells them Canada,

00:31:53.880 because, because of the, because of equalization, things like that. And you've made, and you've made your point on it.

00:31:58.120 Yeah, but I think it's the opposite. But I've said their, their brain will keep to the conclusion that we should be a country,

00:32:03.640 and then fear will come into play. So I would place it rather that way.

00:32:08.680 Yeah, I'm speaking very generally, and imperfectly. But I've said that, you know, Quebecers, because it's more of a cultural nationalism,

00:32:17.800 their hearts. Yeah, their hearts are in it, but their brains, and this might be the fear part,

00:32:25.480 the brains say, ah, it's uncertain, we're going to lose equalization, etc. So their brains say no.

00:32:31.240 And then in Alberta, it's the opposite. We broadly understand that we are massively subsidizing the

00:32:37.480 rest of Canada, that our brains say, we would be significantly better off as an independent country.

00:32:42.440 But our hearts, well, we're English-speaking Canadians. We, our hearts are in Canada,

00:32:48.600 but our brains are independent. So, so that it, you know, these are opposite.

00:32:52.200 They are, because in Quebec, the federal government is not there. It's very strange. Our government is in

00:33:00.440 Quebec City. It's the National Assembly. And the space for what happens in the House of Commons in Ottawa,

00:33:06.520 and the news cycle is, it's totally absent. It's, it's not there, because we don't feel it's our

00:33:13.320 government. And sometimes you hear Quebecers talking about money that the government of,

00:33:18.520 the federal government sends, or it's as if it's foreign money. We've been paying taxes, right?

00:33:24.600 Our brains are increasingly feeling like it's foreign.

00:33:26.120 Well, we just agreed that this was not healthy. What I want to say is that you are maybe entering

00:33:34.520 a new phase where you are now in Quebec's position, where you would like

00:33:40.920 something else than the Liberals in power. And then you realize it's not going to happen,

00:33:46.440 even in extreme circumstances. That's Quebec's situation with the Bloc Québécois for decades.

00:33:53.720 If we express what we want at the federal level, oftentimes, the vast majority of times,

00:34:01.320 the answer will be Bloc Québécois. That Bloc Québécois cannot rule, cannot be in power. It can

00:34:08.920 basically act as a defensive mechanism. Many of us are envious of the Bloc. Against 0.93

00:34:16.840 abuses of powers. And there are so many, so they do their best. But it's not sustainable. It's not

00:34:22.120 something you want forever. So the Bloc Québécois was meant to be a very short term mechanism.

00:34:27.560 So I'm not from Alberta, so I don't want to. But I imagine that after Trudeau,

00:34:35.960 Trudeau's government, if you end up that there's no alternative, there's no rotation,

00:34:42.600 it might trigger questions that we have for a long time. Thinking if we cannot have,

00:34:53.880 if we don't have any probabilities or reasonable rotation of what we think cures what we dislike

00:35:01.080 with, for instance, the Trudeau government, people will start asking themselves, okay,

00:35:06.280 so what are the other options? Because we're pretty not heard. We're pretty much out of the system.

00:35:14.040 And it's the case as well with judiciary power. So the more the judiciary power takes power over

00:35:20.040 democratic choices of parliaments, if those judges are almost all aligned with the Liberal Party of

00:35:27.560 Canada in terms of way of thinking and ideology, those questions exist in Quebec for decades.

00:35:33.560 They might become more present and relevant in Alberta, given what I've just mentioned,

00:35:39.720 as a political development in Ottawa.

00:35:47.720 We're limited on time, so I'm trying to figure out which one I want to get at. Your staff is going to

00:35:51.800 get angry at me if I go too far over. So maybe you could be a real short one on this.

00:35:56.200 Yes. Certain areas, part of my family comes from Bavaria in Germany. And Bavaria has a different

00:36:04.920 title that it calls itself. It's not just a lander, a state in Germany, it calls itself a free state,

00:36:09.880 Freistadt. I know you want independence, but as an interest, I've talked about Alberta should stop.

00:36:15.560 One thing I've really admired is Quebec, especially Quebec national politicians,

00:36:20.280 they never call Quebec a province. That's something I've picked up in the link.

00:36:23.480 But you know what province means? Conquered land.

00:36:27.400 Yeah. Oh, it comes from Provence, which was conquered by the Roman Republic.

00:36:30.600 Yeah, it's from Provencia.

00:36:31.640 Yeah, exactly.

00:36:32.200 So it's a conquered land. So of course, we don't consent to a conquered land.

00:36:36.360 I'm kind of letting slip in our style guide here. I've picked this up. I've taken a lot of the Quebec

00:36:40.920 language and I don't refer to Alberta and Saskatchewan as provinces as much as I can in our own pages here.

00:36:45.640 But sometimes the language gets different because they are provinces. So I've thought that Alberta and

00:36:52.600 Saskatchewan should unilaterally, even without changing the constitution, at least call themselves

00:36:59.000 a free state. It's the same power as a province. It is changing what Quebec calls itself. The symbolism

00:37:05.880 matters and the Quebec nationalist movement is decades ahead of Alberta. Would you, as an interim

00:37:11.160 step, do something like call Quebec a free state or something like that? It's a title change.

00:37:17.800 The problem we have right now is that at the pace things are going, the way the federal

00:37:23.560 policies are oriented and the impact it has in Quebec, the specificity of Quebec from a

00:37:31.000 linguistic and cultural point of view will not last for very long. A bit like what happened to

00:37:37.400 Francophones in every other province. We're losing it in English Canada, even.

00:37:41.480 Okay. So then you understand that in the history of the Parti Quebecois and you have that with the

00:37:47.880 CEQ that is the current government in Quebec, you'll have a tendency to say, what can we do that is

00:37:54.760 symbolic? But we know it's not going to change much, but at least we have our own party at that point.

00:38:01.160 You know, we'll say, oh, we did that. So we'll change unilaterally a part of the Canadian constitution

00:38:10.040 to say we're a nation. And then we'll say it's a historic moment and it's great. It's awesome. So

00:38:16.360 let's say we start calling ourselves free states. If we're not free and we haven't achieved any change

00:38:25.320 in a system that abuses powers over what should be ruled and decided by our respective parliaments,

00:38:34.440 what good do we get? I mean, what's so I don't oppose it. Of course, I will not never be against

00:38:40.280 initiatives that show that we're not a province in the sense of the Latin word. But I'm somewhere else

00:38:48.120 at this point because I don't think there's any future for French speaking Quebec if we don't get 0.92

00:38:54.920 out of Canada as soon as possible. So given that analysis or diagnosis I've made, don't expect the

00:39:04.600 government of the Parti Quebecois to do some things only because it looks good or feels good.

00:39:10.200 And I'm afraid that sometimes in symbolics, we're not going forward. You can be declining very,

00:39:17.640 very fast while making symbolics that feel good. And I think that's a good resume of what the CEQ has

00:39:24.280 done. It's huge decline under the CEQ in all respects, housing, French language, culture, but they've done

00:39:31.640 things like they have, they have done things that probably were in good faith, but the impact of those

00:39:37.960 things are not proportional to the level of challenge under Trudeau's government, under the

00:39:43.640 liberals. And I don't see things changing under Carney. It's the same people, the same mentality

00:39:49.400 of them deciding instead of us on fundamental things for our cultural and linguistic sustainability.

00:39:56.520 So I'm just going to fit one last question in before your staff member goes and pulls the plug

00:40:01.480 at our microphones here.

00:40:02.360 Sure. Well, she's not, she's not very aggressive. 1.00

00:40:05.000 She's very, she's friendly. She's not, she's, she seems nice. Um, you know, as I've said,

00:40:11.800 Alberta and Quebec both want decentralization and more power at home, but we tend to want different

00:40:18.520 kinds, Quebec, more cultural, uh, Alberta, more physical, but we, we do to some extent we both.

00:40:24.440 Yeah. And things are changing. I mean, yeah, I increasingly want more here. Uh, immigration is 1.00

00:40:29.560 not just a fiscal issue. Now it is very much a social issue. And, um, uh, so, you know,

00:40:36.200 we've talked about where, so building those alliances I find has pretty, you know, the,

00:40:40.600 the, the two big decentralist provinces, to use a dirty word. Um, but we've wanted different kinds

00:40:47.160 and I, and in large measure, that is why Meech Lake and especially Charlottetown accords failed.

00:40:52.040 Um, you know, Quebec and Alberta were the two leading areas of Canada that voted down

00:40:57.560 Charlottetown, but we voted it down for very different reasons. Uh, Albertans and Westerners 1.00

00:41:03.720 broadly voted it down, uh, because it was seen as, uh, creating asymmetrical federalism,

00:41:10.680 giving special deals to Quebec. Uh, and there was also some first nations issues in it. There was,

00:41:14.840 you know, it was a huge, huge agreement. Um, and, but we voted it down for one set of reasons,

00:41:20.040 seeing it being seen as overly appeasing Quebec, Quebecers voted it down, at least as I perceive it as

00:41:26.200 it didn't go far enough in defending Quebec's culture and autonomy.

00:41:32.680 I know you prefer independence. Uh, I prefer independence. Um, but I mean, you've tried twice,

00:41:40.200 didn't work. We, we haven't even had a shot at it. And even then we'd have a, it's a long shot for us to

00:41:44.840 achieve it. Yeah. Failing independence. Is there some kind of grand bargain? We call it Charlottetown

00:41:59.400 two that could, uh, okay. Poor us. Yeah. But like if failing independence, if independence is not

00:42:08.200 successful, is there a kind of grand bargain from your perspective that you think you could make

00:42:15.640 that would make, uh, the Quebec nation happy and content within Canada that would work for you?

00:42:25.880 To the question, what does Quebec want? The answer is clear, crystal clear. Quebec wants self-determination,

00:42:33.320 democratic self-determination. Why? Because it's the only model that gives a future to our specificity,

00:42:41.400 linguistic and cultural. Other financial reasons have joined the reasons, but basically that's it. So,

00:42:50.280 I mean, the only reason why

00:42:55.640 federal prime ministers engaged into such complicated negotiations and talks

00:43:02.680 was that they felt there was a direct threat to their power

00:43:07.320 and their regime. They didn't do that in good faith because they just like to improve the life

00:43:13.080 of Quebecers or Albertans. So, it might happen that as Quebec's sovereignty movement,

00:43:20.280 independence movement, grows in strength, and probably Alberta's same movement grows in strength,

00:43:26.360 in good faith. You'll find federal politicians nervous saying, okay, let's renegotiate in good faith.

00:43:35.880 I think we've been through that and anything under self-determination in terms of our laws,

00:43:41.480 our finances and international relations will not work for Quebec because it will not work for our

00:43:49.080 linguistic, cultural, and financial specificity. However, once it's done, so once Quebec declares

00:43:58.760 independence, I think if Alberta declares independence, Quebec will follow, same here,

00:44:04.360 vice versa. If Quebec goes, I think Alberta will say, okay, I'm also independent. In which case,

00:44:13.880 we will talk to each other about what framework would be useful on a number of topics,

00:44:20.280 but without the federal trying to grab money and grab power and defend their privileges, without them,

00:44:27.640 without interference and constant abuse of power since 1667, a constitution that we never voted or agreed

00:44:34.760 upon, it's in direct link. It's really about the colonial regime for Quebec. So, I think it's the other way

00:44:45.240 around. You become independent and a bit like Norway and Sweden or Slovakia and Czech Republic or in many,

00:44:52.600 like, of course, in the following days, I will not be wanting to negotiate with the federal.

00:45:01.080 I will want to negotiate with other provinces who think actually mostly the same thing as I do

00:45:06.680 about how it should work. It doesn't mean we agree on our priorities, but we agree that a framework

00:45:13.000 that would respect our respective, would show respect to our respective parliaments is much

00:45:19.480 better than abuse of power based on an old and dysfunctional constitution. And you have to add to

00:45:26.760 that that we were, during the patriation of the 1982 constitution, we were totally out of it. It's just

00:45:35.480 the end of the contempt is a better start for a new framework than trying to deal with people who have

00:45:44.200 have been abusing their powers, begging them to stop abusing their powers. And take the immigration 1.00

00:45:50.600 situation. So, Justin Trudeau out of the blue, but not out of the blue. You had a group called the

00:45:56.120 Century Initiative on Bay Street. They decided that we need to be 100 million Canadians based on whatever

00:46:02.920 fluke economics. They don't consult anyone. They just start doing this by saying, hey, come to Roxham.

00:46:09.800 And they changed the criteria at the airport. They really sabotaged our immigration system that was

00:46:17.720 working well. They were warned by provinces. They were warned by their own public servants. You will

00:46:23.960 create the worst housing crisis we've seen in decades. Don't do it. And they did it anyway. So why would

00:46:31.000 I negotiate with these people? Why would I give them legitimacy? They're abusing their power and they're 0.51

00:46:38.520 toxic for the public good in Quebec. And I think many Albertans are starting to think the same in

00:46:45.640 regards of their conception of public good in Alberta. So I'd rather have independence. And then we make a

00:46:52.920 deal and we talk because I expect collaboration to be ongoing on so many things. Simply, we're used to it.

00:46:59.960 And there are so many things we can work. And that's why I'm here. So just to say, by the way,

00:47:05.080 the door is open. We have many things to talk about. But going through a new Charlottetown or a

00:47:11.880 new Meech Lake, I just don't see where it could lead that is positive. I just don't see it.

00:47:18.440 Okay. Well, I'm just going to sneak one last one because it's really quick. You've convinced me on a lot

00:47:23.880 of things. So when you have that third referendum on independence, are you going to let Albertans vote in it?

00:47:28.360 Yeah. Well, you know that the federal government cheated on the second referendum by bringing in

00:47:35.240 people that were not from Quebec in order them to vote in a result that was so close.

00:47:40.040 Yeah. So among the things that maybe people listening to us in Alberta don't know.

00:47:44.360 Letting us vote could help you.

00:47:45.160 I mean, they arrested members of the Parti Québécois. They stolen the list of members.

00:47:52.200 They cheated during the patriation of the Constitution. They cheated during the referendums.

00:47:57.480 They, I mean, at some point, yes, there could be some kind of solidarity or some common understanding

00:48:06.280 of the fact that serving genuine democracy is serving public good. And that's why when you're

00:48:13.640 asking me about how the federal will react in terms of Clarity Act and so on, there's been so many instances

00:48:19.720 where the federal cheated and was dishonest. So I don't expect anything else. And yes, some form of

00:48:29.080 collaboration on the fundamentals would be useful. And I think that's why I'm here. I'm just

00:48:36.760 your self-determination in Alberta is yours to determine. It's yours to decide. And if you feel you

00:48:43.000 have a common identity and common interests that are worth becoming a country, good for you. And it's

00:48:50.200 not for me to have a judgment on it. But if I can be useful to democracy or if we can be useful to our

00:48:58.440 both our interests, economic interests in the short term and so on, why not talk instead of being in that

00:49:05.960 weird equalization and federal framework where nobody agrees because the interests are just not

00:49:12.200 compatible and the abuse of power is so constant, it creates frustration. So I think in a way,

00:49:17.960 the reason I'm here is exactly that. So we can talk at least and see what positive could come

00:49:26.200 in the next decades, given the decade we just experimented under the liberals, federal liberals.

00:49:32.440 Well, I think there's been a fascinating conversation. I think this is the kind of conversation,

00:49:38.040 the whole dynamic of it is not something that Quebecers, Albertans, Westerners or Canadians

00:49:43.560 broadly are very used to. So I really appreciate you coming in.

00:49:46.920 And I salute all of those who listened and I might be back. So there'll be other opportunities to think

00:49:55.160 about this. Our invitation is open. We'd love to have you back. Thank you very much.

00:49:59.000 My pleasure. Thank you. All right. That's Paul St-Pierre Plomondon, leader of the Parti Québécois,

00:50:10.920 sharing his thoughts. Thank you very much for joining us. Remember, if you're not yet a member

00:50:15.240 of the Western Standard, go to westernstandard.news, click on subscribe. It's only $10 a month or $100 a

00:50:20.440 year to support our work and get full access to all Western Standard content. Thank you very much for

00:50:25.240 joining us today and God bless.

Western Standard - September 18, 2025

FILDEBRANDT： The independence question： Parallels between Quebec and Alberta

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