Western Standard - August 08, 2022


Franco Terrazzano of the CTF on direct democracy measures


Episode Stats


Length

15 minutes

Words per minute

186.52219

Word count

2,909

Sentence count

163

Harmful content

Misogyny

1

sentences flagged

Hate speech

1

sentences flagged


Summary

Summaries generated with gmurro/bart-large-finetuned-filtered-spotify-podcast-summ .

In this episode, we discuss the need for recall and referendum legislation in Alberta and why it's a good idea. We also discuss the benefits and drawbacks of the current legislation and what we would like to see in the future.

Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
Misogyny classifications generated with MilaNLProc/bert-base-uncased-ear-misogyny .
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
00:00:00.000 So we had a column from you and Chris the other day that went in.
00:00:03.420 It was talking about how Pierre Polyev, or I guess I could kind of read into it,
00:00:07.820 any of the leadership candidates could have an opportunity to really bring in some good policies of accountability through things like recall and referenda.
00:00:15.760 Yeah, that's exactly right.
00:00:17.300 Now, the reason that it was addressed mostly focusing on Polyev is just because that's essentially what he said that his campaign is focused around.
00:00:25.280 Now, we'll get to that in a second.
00:00:27.060 But, Corey, let me just provide a little background.
00:00:29.280 I'm sure most of your watchers and listeners understand what recall and referendum legislation is.
00:00:35.060 But let me just really drive the point home.
00:00:37.820 So recall legislation, it allows people to start a petition if they're angry at a politician.
00:00:43.900 And if they get enough petition signatures, then they can force a by-election to boot that politician in between elections.
00:00:51.980 Now, referendum laws, which is typically known as Citizens Initiative, is very similar.
00:00:57.100 Essentially, if you want to propose a piece of legislation or you want to axe a piece of bad legislation,
00:01:04.500 then you can start a petition drive.
00:01:06.580 If you collect enough petitions, then you can force that legislation to be voted on in a referendum across a province,
00:01:14.220 across a city or, of course, across a nation, which is what we're hoping that the next conservative leadership hopeful will bring in,
00:01:22.620 if they're elected prime minister, is a national recall and referendum legislation that we've been pushing for for like 30 years.
00:01:30.020 Yeah, I mean, with those referendums or those legislations as well, I mean, another part of the puzzle, too, though,
00:01:36.840 is to make sure that they bring ones in that are workable.
00:01:39.880 You know, that was one of my big disappointments with Premier Kenney is he promised it.
00:01:44.100 He dragged his feet on it.
00:01:45.260 He waited a long, long time, then finally put it out.
00:01:47.160 But he set the bar in places where we know damn well that those are not going to be functional, you know,
00:01:53.500 pieces of legislation that a person can't realistically initiate that kind of action.
00:01:59.040 So, Corey, maybe we might disagree here a little bit, but let me start with the good and the bad, right?
00:02:03.860 Or because there's there's both.
00:02:05.480 I think it's a bit of a mixed bag what Premier Kenney did.
00:02:08.220 I mean, first, I think it's important to recognize and give kudos where kudos is due.
00:02:13.200 And where the kudos is due is that we do have some form of recall in Alberta,
00:02:17.760 some form of citizens initiative in Alberta.
00:02:19.600 I mean, that's something that guys like you and me have been pushing for for a long time,
00:02:24.020 the CTF for 30 years.
00:02:25.940 And another thing that we have to talk about is that another good part of the legislation
00:02:29.960 is that it's extended to the municipal level, right?
00:02:33.480 Because we know, Corey, more than anyone else, that those councillors sitting on City of Calgary,
00:02:39.880 for example, they need to be held accountable outside of elections as well.
00:02:43.140 But to your point, Corey, let's talk about the mixed bag issue.
00:02:46.720 So some of the downfalls.
00:02:47.860 Now, we and myself presented to the committee at the Alberta government,
00:02:52.700 and we were recommending the Alberta government set the recall rules at about 25% of votes cast
00:03:00.020 in the last election.
00:03:01.400 So a lower threshold, to your point, than what Premier Kenney brought in,
00:03:06.140 because they brought in something that was, what was it, but 40% of eligible voters.
00:03:11.140 What we pushed for was 25% of votes cast in the last election,
00:03:15.760 which would have been a little bit easier for citizens to actually hold their politicians accountable.
00:03:20.040 Yeah, well, that's it.
00:03:21.720 I mean, credit where due, as you said, at least if the legislation's already in, too,
00:03:25.980 then it's easier to amend the existing legislation than starting from scratch.
00:03:29.460 I mean, the principles there, it's just if we can make the case that the bar is set too high,
00:03:33.400 and there should be a bar.
00:03:34.560 I mean, we don't want frivolous referendums held on everything,
00:03:37.880 or recall initiatives just every time you don't like who got elected.
00:03:41.460 But I think a lot of people don't understand, too.
00:03:43.260 25% of the votes cast, that's a big chunk of names to get on a piece of paper in a real petition.
00:03:49.040 You know, some people say, oh, it'll be done easily.
00:03:50.560 No, no, no.
00:03:51.240 If you've petitioned before, that's a lot of work.
00:03:53.620 It's got to be serious before you get that.
00:03:55.880 Well, and that's the type of balance that we were trying to strike, Corey, with a recommendation, right?
00:04:00.260 On the one hand, we wanted type of legislation that actual people can actually use, right?
00:04:05.540 So if their politician gets caught dipping their hands in the taxpayer cookie jar,
00:04:10.120 we wanted a tool that people could actually use to give them a pink slip.
00:04:14.300 But on the other hand, to your point, we also have to strike the balance so that political chaos doesn't ensue
00:04:20.500 and that there's not recalls every other day, which might be entertaining.
00:04:24.660 But of course, that's not how the system would work.
00:04:27.320 Now, one thing I want to point forward, Corey, is that we have seen a lot of success in Canada
00:04:33.920 with recall and with referendums.
00:04:36.580 BC was actually the first province to put in recall and initiative all the way back in 1995.
00:04:42.700 There was one successful recall campaign when they had an MLA who got caught sending fake letters to the editor.
00:04:49.860 And then there was a successful recall campaign that collected enough signatures
00:04:53.960 and he finally stepped down when the writing was on the wall.
00:04:57.760 But there was also a successful referendum campaign in British Columbia
00:05:01.740 because of this type of legislation.
00:05:03.920 And it was when the BC government bungled the process and tried to raise taxes
00:05:08.380 when trying to harmonize the federal and provincial sales taxes.
00:05:12.540 So that piece of legislation allowed voters to say no to that deal when the government bungled it.
00:05:18.180 But also, we have seen two other examples of referendums that have been very successful,
00:05:24.180 even though they weren't triggered by provincial legislation.
00:05:26.460 Of course, number one, I'm talking about the Calgary bid boondoggle where the people were able to say no
00:05:32.400 and really fight back against the establishment who wanted to raise taxes
00:05:36.620 and spend money in such a frivolous way on the Calgary Olympics.
00:05:39.860 So very glad that we won that plebiscite.
00:05:42.460 But also in British Columbia, the voters were able to strike down a new transit tax
00:05:48.980 that governments were trying to shove down their throats.
00:05:51.620 Yeah, I mean, there's successful ones and unsuccessful.
00:05:56.080 I mean, just going all the way south, for an example, though, I guess for politicians, you know,
00:06:00.780 for excuses if they fear it, Gavin Newsom dodged being thrown out of office through a citizen's initiative.
00:06:07.080 And most conservatives weren't too happy to see that happen.
00:06:10.340 But to be fair, as far as democracy goes, he's got a stronger mandate now than ever.
00:06:15.880 He's had to face the electorate yet again, and he made his case well.
00:06:19.980 So, I mean, you know, allowing the citizens to get that chance doesn't mean a doom for the politician necessarily.
00:06:25.720 It can mean a stronger mandate.
00:06:27.560 Yeah, that's right.
00:06:28.340 And to that point, building on it a little bit, is that you don't need recall campaigns
00:06:33.800 or you don't need an actual recall by-election to really force politicians into behaving better, right?
00:06:39.680 Sometimes the stick is enough.
00:06:41.520 If you know that you might have to face your voters tomorrow rather than four years down the road,
00:06:47.560 you're probably more likely to behave a little bit better, right?
00:06:51.740 So there's that incentive built within the recall and referendum type of legislation
00:06:56.840 that should force politicians to actually behave better. 0.95
00:07:00.100 Because, look, man, if you have to go to the doors tomorrow to sell your case on why you behave badly,
00:07:05.420 you're probably less likely to behave badly in the first place.
00:07:08.800 Yeah, no, you don't want to face that.
00:07:10.900 I mean, there's other things you could be doing.
00:07:13.620 Now, something I don't know if this could be legislated.
00:07:16.780 I guess you'd have to worry about the political follow-up.
00:07:18.300 But, I mean, Alberta had that legislation a long, long time ago.
00:07:20.900 You're probably familiar with it.
00:07:22.180 Social credit was in power.
00:07:23.380 And it looked like a successful one was about to happen.
00:07:26.940 So the government just scrapped the legislation.
00:07:29.040 And how could you prevent that from happening?
00:07:31.320 Well, Corey, I mean, the only real answer to that is that can happen with any type of legislation, right?
00:07:37.220 That can happen with any type of legislation.
00:07:39.220 But at least then the politicians who did that would have to answer for it in the following election.
00:07:47.480 Let me give you another example.
00:07:48.920 I believe it was Manitoba.
00:07:50.580 I believe it was Manitoba, certainly a prairie province where you had some form of Taxpayer Protection Act.
00:07:55.700 They decided to at least water it down or alter it.
00:07:59.280 And they were held accountable big time in the last election.
00:08:02.680 So, I mean, certainly you can make that argument about any piece of legislation, okay, granted.
00:08:08.100 But at least there's that extra check on the power, right?
00:08:11.440 Right now, essentially, we just have to wait for whenever the next federal election is to be able to give politicians a pink slip.
00:08:19.120 But even, let's just put recall legislation to the side.
00:08:23.720 We could have used Citizens Initiative or referendum legislation.
00:08:27.280 We could have been using that over the last little while.
00:08:30.880 And let me give you some examples.
00:08:32.060 I mean, we have seen the carbon tax go up three times during the pandemic.
00:08:36.380 We saw the carbon tax go up again April 1st of this year while inflation was already sky high.
00:08:42.120 I think there's a case to be made that someone could have launched a Citizens Initiative referendum to stop those carbon tax hikes.
00:08:50.000 At least now we would have been able to put pressure on the government about their carbon tax.
00:08:54.380 Because remember, Corey, these politicians have not been honest with us at election time about carbon taxes.
00:09:00.500 Remember, before the 2019 election, you had then Environment Minister Catherine McKenna tell voters that the government had no intention to keep raising the carbon tax beyond 11 cents per liter of gas.
00:09:11.800 Then following the election, what happened?
00:09:14.760 Well, Truro says now that they had a new mandate, whoa, we're going to keep raising it all the way up to, what is it, 40 cents per liter of gas.
00:09:22.020 So I think that this type of legislation would give people a better tool to actually hold their politicians accountable and to actually get important policy issues on the tables all across Canada.
00:09:34.940 Yeah, another aspect that needs to be put into the legislations, I think, with these two is not just Citizens Initiative referenda, but binding Citizens Initiative referenda.
00:09:46.240 Because if there's not a binding clause for it, then still all it is is a poll.
00:09:50.820 And even if it might be politically dangerous for government to do, they could ignore the outcome of a referenda more easily in that case.
00:09:57.200 Yeah, they could for sure.
00:09:58.420 I mean, they did in Calgary.
00:09:59.600 Remember, that wasn't exactly legally binding.
00:10:02.420 So I totally agree with what you're saying.
00:10:05.140 There needs to be even more strict limits on what politicians can do or not do after referendum.
00:10:11.220 But even if that's not included, it's still better than not being in.
00:10:15.260 Right.
00:10:15.960 But, Corey, one thing I do want to circle back to is kind of where you started the conversation off.
00:10:21.140 Like, why is the piece targeting Mr. Paulieff?
00:10:24.760 Of course, we want all parties, all political leaders to run with recall and initiative.
00:10:30.260 But the reason we focused on Mr. Paulieff in this op-ed is because his whole campaign, he's been talking about putting people back in charge, making a Canada where the government is the servant, not the master.
00:10:42.620 He's right when he identifies that there's an accountability problem in Ottawa.
00:10:47.060 But we think that one of the key solutions to that then is, OK, if you want to show that citizens are the boss, then input recall and referendum laws.
00:10:56.440 And so far, we haven't heard him make a firm commitment to this piece of legislation.
00:11:01.660 Yeah, well, and you want to this is the time to get those commitments.
00:11:05.700 I mean, I guess you see why they fear making those commitments.
00:11:09.680 It didn't work out very well with Mr. O'Toole on the carbon tax when you guys got his signature on it.
00:11:14.640 But it's important times like now when they're running to get them to make a statement on that.
00:11:19.220 So I imagine you'll you'll keep putting the question to Mr. Paulieff as long as you can.
00:11:23.600 Yeah, absolutely.
00:11:24.160 Well, and we do want to get them on the record because, hey, when they lie to Canadians, they get held accountable.
00:11:29.680 Right. Unfortunately for Mr. O'Toole, Canadian voters aren't stupid.
00:11:34.200 He said one thing in the leadership race.
00:11:36.600 He broke his promise.
00:11:38.040 He lied to Canadians and he was held accountable, not just by Canadian voters, but but his own caucus as well.
00:11:43.920 And well, in recall, I mean, it should hold some appeal for people on any end of the spectrum.
00:11:48.140 I mean, if you just look at it on the surface with a good policy, I mean, I know speaking for Calgary City Council in the last two councils,
00:11:53.800 there were a couple of candidates I suspect might have had recall and initiatives brought up against them,
00:11:59.400 or at least attempted. And these were conservative leaning candidates, not left leaning ones,
00:12:04.360 but they don't have the mechanism right now either.
00:12:06.260 So they're stuck with these or were stuck with one and are stuck with another until the end of this term.
00:12:11.260 I completely agree. And I think you're talking to what was it?
00:12:13.240 Counselor Joe Magliocca when he was caught sticking his hands in the taxpayer cookie jar.
00:12:17.040 Corey, I think that's who you might have been referred to.
00:12:19.640 Yes.
00:12:19.740 Yeah, but here's the thing, right? A recall, an initiative, it's not really a right, it's not really a left type of issue.
00:12:26.780 I mean, you can get any type of, you can get any type of policy in a referendum.
00:12:31.980 And when you look at recall, recall usually isn't about a specific policy per se.
00:12:37.380 Anyway, it tends to happen, these type of recall by-elections tend to happen when you have politicians misusing public trust, right?
00:12:46.980 Or I should say abusing public trust.
00:12:49.120 So for example, in British Columbia, it wasn't a specific policy per se that led to the recall campaign.
00:12:54.280 It was when their MLA was caught sending fake letters to the editor, right?
00:12:58.460 So the recall tool, I think, would be more for making sure politicians aren't abusing the public purse and, quite frankly, just aren't trying to mislead Canadians and mislead taxpayers.
00:13:11.480 Yeah, well, and as you said, the preventative power, potentially, anyways, maybe some of these guys would think, okay, well, if I pull this off, I could, you know, have to answer for it.
00:13:21.080 You know, because a lot of what happens, too, is they pull their stunts, but they just hope that the public forgets by the time they get another chance to get to the polls.
00:13:29.360 And the recall is always, hopefully, at the back of their minds saying, you know, I better keep a clean nose here or we're going to be in trouble.
00:13:37.640 Hey, and one more thing I need to add, right?
00:13:39.420 We've seen some success here in Canada with recall and initiative.
00:13:42.800 You mentioned the fact that a lot of this happens in the states already.
00:13:46.580 Already about half of the states in the U.S. have either some form of recall or some form of initiative legislation.
00:13:53.120 But also, we found that there's about 19 countries, at least that we've identified, that have some form of recall legislation.
00:14:01.060 Countries similar to us, or at least peers like Japan, you've got Swiss, you've got some Mexican states that also have recall.
00:14:08.240 I believe there is some type of recall process in Germany as well, maybe even at the local level.
00:14:13.720 But then initiative, the referendum legislation, we've identified 36 different countries that have some form of direct democratic process that allows their citizens to influence legislation.
00:14:25.440 You've got Italy, where there's something like that.
00:14:27.420 You have New Zealand. 0.80
00:14:28.420 And, of course, the one that everyone knows about is Switzerland.
00:14:31.580 So I just want to make clear is that there's so many different examples to choose from where you can strike the right balance federally between more accountability and making sure political chaos doesn't ensue.
00:14:42.220 Yeah, we can't pretend that it's unprecedented or there aren't working examples to go from.
00:14:49.080 Well, I appreciate that, Franco, and thanks for coming on today.
00:14:52.780 Where can people find more information about what you're pushing and encouraging out there in the taxpayer's world?
00:14:58.340 Well, hey, head over to taxpayer.com, check out our newsroom, sign some petitions, follow us on Facebook and Twitter.
00:15:04.040 And, Corey, thanks so much for having me on.
00:15:05.780 Thank you.