Western Standard - Gina Pappano from InvestNow on opposition to divestment movements

00:00:00.000 Hi, Gina, how you doing?

00:00:01.540 I'm good, Corey, how are you?

00:00:03.640 Good, thank you.

00:00:04.480 Did I get that last name right?

00:00:05.980 Yes, you did, it was perfect.

00:00:07.380 Oh, okay, great, there's a couple of ways

00:00:09.460 that one could have gone, so. 0.75

00:00:10.900 Yes, I've heard them all.

00:00:14.900 As you might've heard from the lobby there,

00:00:16.540 I talked a bit about the background of divestment

00:00:18.580 and what's happening with it,

00:00:19.620 but perhaps if you could expand a little more

00:00:21.780 on what that is and where they're targeting

00:00:24.180 some industries right now.

00:00:25.880 Yes, so on the one side we have investing,

00:00:28.880 which is putting money into something,

00:00:30.460 and on the other side we have divesting,

00:00:32.240 which is starving a company of the capital they need

00:00:35.720 to thrive, survive, thrive, and even start up.

00:00:42.200 And we've been seeing the divestment movement

00:00:45.580 take hold in Canada over the last few years.

00:00:48.280 They started at the universities,

00:00:51.380 calling on the endowment funds of universities

00:00:54.100 to divest from any stock holdings

00:00:58.000 of oil and gas companies.

00:01:00.000 And now, as you mentioned,

00:01:02.020 they've moved on to pension funds,

00:01:04.000 as well as calling on the banks

00:01:07.420 to stop financing and investing

00:01:10.680 in oil and gas companies.

00:01:13.080 So at InvestNow, we think that's totally wrong.

00:01:17.560 We should be investing in our oil and gas companies.

00:01:20.660 You know, we have some of the highest standards

00:01:23.000 in the world, our oil and gas companies are the cleanest,

00:01:27.100 demand is going nowhere but up,

00:01:30.000 and we feel that Canada should be supplying the oil and gas

00:01:34.160 that the world needs.

00:01:35.920 And that's our main mission,

00:01:37.180 is to fight against the divestment movement.

00:01:39.900 And I mean, it can be terribly damaging.

00:01:43.120 I mean, you know, if we just leave the markets alone,

00:01:46.240 if they're non-viable industries,

00:01:47.920 if enough of the people don't want to have any part of it,

00:01:50.220 they'll stop investing in it.

00:01:51.480 But this is different.

00:01:52.260 This is intervening against the instincts of investors

00:01:55.080 and trying to artificially stunt the flow of capital

00:01:58.980 to these projects.

00:02:00.720 And it can be very damaging for a lot of people

00:02:03.100 and their pension plans if they might not realize it.

00:02:05.100 Yes, the returns on oil and gas companies of late

00:02:09.000 have been exceptional.

00:02:11.380 And by just wiping out a whole sector,

00:02:16.040 you know, that's artificially constraining a portfolio.

00:02:19.980 And it's artificially constraining investment

00:02:22.320 in a sector that is viable

00:02:24.520 and so important to Canada, especially.

00:02:28.100 Yeah, so I mean, your organization's been doing more

00:02:30.780 than just speaking to it, of course.

00:02:32.160 Your site's quite deep with a lot of information on it,

00:02:33.960 but you've been giving presentations

00:02:35.260 and proactively going out too

00:02:37.120 to try and, you know, counter this sort of activity, right?

00:02:40.380 Yes, and our latest big push is to the banks.

00:02:43.920 We've submitted some shareholder proposals,

00:02:45.640 which I'll be presenting on in the next few weeks.

00:02:48.240 And we're calling on the banks to commit to investing

00:02:53.720 in the oil and gas sector

00:02:55.420 and to look at the things that they've committed to,

00:03:00.040 like net zero, which is, you know,

00:03:03.200 is another word for divestment, basically,

00:03:05.900 because you're saying that you're not going to invest

00:03:07.740 in oil and gas companies.

00:03:09.200 And we're calling on them to commit to the sector.

00:03:12.960 And we're calling on shareholders to vote for our proposal.

00:03:17.040 Well, that's it.

00:03:17.740 I mean, if you can get to the shareholders,

00:03:19.400 those are the people that are actually in the end of it,

00:03:21.200 putting their money in and they want to return on it.

00:03:23.200 That's why they're doing it.

00:03:25.180 That's right.

00:03:26.360 If senior levels of these companies are, you know,

00:03:29.500 misdirecting what these shareholders bought into,

00:03:31.400 that's kind of inappropriate with the goal of investment is.

00:03:36.620 That's exactly right.

00:03:37.840 And it's, you're not only taking care of the shareholders

00:03:41.120 when you're, you know, you're investing in viable companies,

00:03:44.200 as you said, and you're allowing the markets

00:03:45.980 to work themselves out, so to speak.

00:03:49.740 But you're also taking care of stakeholders

00:03:52.740 because the whole purpose of divestment

00:03:55.520 is to stem the climate crisis.

00:03:59.200 But that does nothing to, it doesn't do anything

00:04:02.680 to help emissions reductions.

00:04:05.080 Because the oil and gas that the world needs

00:04:07.280 and is demanding is going to come from somewhere.

00:04:09.920 So we believe that Canada should be supplying that oil and gas.

00:04:14.400 And why should we be hobbling Canada and our economy

00:04:17.560 and jobs and everything that relies on oil and gas

00:04:22.200 to chase this non-existent, like this goal

00:04:27.760 of emission reduction, which isn't, it's not happening.

00:04:33.500 Yeah.

00:04:34.080 And I mean, as well, something that the divestment movement,

00:04:37.860 I guess, kind of overlooks is that energy producers,

00:04:42.320 oil and gas and other things still have made great strides

00:04:45.280 in reducing the emissions that they do produce.

00:04:47.260 I mean, we won't hit zero, but they've done great advancements

00:04:51.200 with carbon capture, with cleaning up oil field practices,

00:04:54.500 and a lot of other technological advances

00:04:57.260 that reduce the impact on the planet in general,

00:04:59.320 whether it's emissions or even on ground footprint.

00:05:01.840 But the divestment movement refuses to acknowledge that.

00:05:04.840 That's right.

00:05:05.300 And investment really, it does foster innovation.

00:05:07.780 Because if you have capital, you will be innovating.

00:05:11.900 You're constantly innovating.

00:05:12.840 You're always trying to do better.

00:05:14.180 If you take away that investment or that capital,

00:05:16.720 then it means that we're starving the industry of innovation.

00:05:22.760 Well, and you've got, I imagine you don't want to get

00:05:25.720 too specifically political, but a challenge with the federal government

00:05:29.240 that's giving a bunch of incentives to green investments,

00:05:32.060 but it's kind of been pretty silent when it comes

00:05:36.040 to our existing industries.

00:05:37.260 Yes, and the question we always have is,

00:05:41.500 why are we hobbling ourselves?

00:05:43.580 And meanwhile, China is permitting two new coal plants per week.

00:05:49.100 In 2022, they were permitting two new coal plants per week.

00:05:53.140 When they could be used, we could be the supplier of choice.

00:05:56.260 We could be an energy powerhouse,

00:05:57.880 and we're hobbling ourselves for no reason.

00:06:03.840 Well, yeah, and I'd mentioned Germany earlier.

00:06:05.820 Like, we've seen the examples.

00:06:07.320 You know, any realistic economist is pointing out

00:06:10.800 there's going to be still a growing demand for petrochemical products

00:06:14.460 probably for decades to come yet.

00:06:16.440 So, I mean, we have to face that reality.

00:06:19.320 Germany kind of refused to face it.

00:06:20.640 They put billions and billions and billions of dollars

00:06:22.980 into renewables, and when push came to shove,

00:06:26.880 they found themselves over a barrel,

00:06:28.100 and they actually had to start burning coal again.

00:06:30.220 I mean, the irony of that whole mess is,

00:06:32.160 but it seems to be lost on anti-petrochemical activists.

00:06:35.960 That's right, and we just need to look at Europe

00:06:38.140 for an example of where Canada is headed.

00:06:41.000 And unless we change the attitudes

00:06:45.020 and get our message out there

00:06:47.120 that investment is key and not divestment,

00:06:51.120 we're going to be, we will be following in their footsteps

00:06:53.540 what Europe is going through right now.

00:06:56.020 You know, they're deciding between eating and heating.

00:06:58.240 The energy prices have skyrocketed.

00:07:00.840 There's no supply,

00:07:03.020 and Canada could be there to save the day.

00:07:08.800 And as I noticed on your website, of course,

00:07:10.760 I mean, it's predominantly we hear about oil and gas,

00:07:12.720 but this doesn't stop just there.

00:07:14.760 And anything that activists could deem

00:07:16.960 to be irresponsible environmentally

00:07:19.560 or socially by their measure,

00:07:21.580 they could start doing the same thing,

00:07:22.740 whether it's livestock producers

00:07:24.760 or fertilizer use in agricultural applications

00:07:28.200 or mining or forestry.

00:07:30.800 Exactly.

00:07:31.860 We're advocating, we started with oil and gas

00:07:34.860 because they've been the most demonized,

00:07:37.360 but we are keeping our eye on all those four sectors

00:07:40.440 that you just mentioned,

00:07:41.360 all the natural resources sector,

00:07:42.960 which Canada is blessed with,

00:07:44.760 you know, we have an advantage

00:07:47.380 by having all of these natural resources

00:07:50.220 and we should be fostering the national resources.

00:07:53.360 We should be investing in it.

00:07:56.760 So this kind of all ties into that whole ESG,

00:08:00.100 I would call it a fad even, 1.00

00:08:01.560 but it's a destructive one.

00:08:02.680 It's basically saying that our corporations,

00:08:05.560 our businesses shouldn't actually be focused

00:08:07.000 on making money that their role

00:08:08.760 is as some sort of philanthropists in the world

00:08:12.920 with environment and social governance and such.

00:08:15.900 But that's, you know, speaking of divestment,

00:08:18.720 that's a divestment from the reality

00:08:19.820 of why those places were formed in the first place,

00:08:22.500 but their boards are starting to embrace this stuff.

00:08:24.960 And, you know,

00:08:25.900 how do you turn back that trend a little bit?

00:08:27.600 Well, we have seen a little bit of pushback

00:08:30.920 in the industry.

00:08:32.460 Vanguard exited out of a net zero,

00:08:35.640 like a global asset manager alliance,

00:08:37.560 because they realized

00:08:39.800 that you can't just blanket divest from a sector.

00:08:43.260 That is not,

00:08:43.900 that is the antithesis of ESG investing.

00:08:46.220 If you want it to go that way,

00:08:48.040 you can't just say,

00:08:49.380 oh, we're never investing in an oil and gas company.

00:08:51.140 You're not even looking at their governance standards,

00:08:53.220 their environmental standards,

00:08:54.980 their social standards.

00:08:56.820 And especially in Canada,

00:08:58.460 where our standards are so high to just say,

00:09:00.920 oh, we're not,

00:09:01.880 we're not investing in oil and gas anymore.

00:09:03.640 That is not ESG investing at all.

00:09:06.240 And we have seen some pushback,

00:09:08.400 you know, in the, in the US,

00:09:10.120 the CEO of, of Jamie Dimon said

00:09:13.700 to divest from oil and gas would be hell for America. 0.73

00:09:17.040 And I would say it would be hell for Canada as well.

00:09:19.440 So we need to get our mess.

00:09:21.200 That divestment is wrong.

00:09:22.480 It's, it's not good for Canada,

00:09:24.700 not good for Canadians,

00:09:26.100 not good for jobs and not good for innovation.

00:09:29.980 Not good for shareholders either.

00:09:32.200 No.

00:09:32.780 And even speaking to shareholders and organizations,

00:09:35.320 have you been in communication,

00:09:37.020 your organization with elected officials

00:09:38.880 or, you know,

00:09:39.940 government bodies of any kind on this issue?

00:09:42.320 No, not on this issue,

00:09:43.660 but we're our first product,

00:09:45.900 this first initiative reaching out to shareholders.

00:09:48.320 We have been doing that

00:09:49.600 and we've gotten some good feedback

00:09:51.160 that people will be voting for,

00:09:53.260 for our proposal.

00:09:55.540 So we're happy to hear that.

00:09:57.020 And we're just going to keep pushing.

00:10:00.220 Step by step.

00:10:01.300 So, so as you move,

00:10:02.760 I know you've got a petition on the go

00:10:04.380 and a few other things.

00:10:05.780 Before I let you go,

00:10:06.800 then, you know,

00:10:07.180 where can people find more information

00:10:08.920 on how to help, you know,

00:10:09.840 support this,

00:10:10.680 this, I say, push back against,

00:10:12.720 you know,

00:10:12.840 an unreasonable and destructive movement.

00:10:14.660 And where are you guys based?

00:10:16.240 Yeah, people can go on to sdin.ca

00:10:18.820 and look at our campaigns.

00:10:20.800 We have a campaign

00:10:21.560 for the university professors

00:10:23.320 across universities across Canada

00:10:26.000 to stop,

00:10:27.700 to reject the divestment agenda

00:10:29.520 because they're pushing

00:10:30.560 for their pension funds to divest.

00:10:32.960 And they can look at our campaigns

00:10:34.920 and sign on to our,

00:10:36.120 our resolution

00:10:37.520 where we say,

00:10:39.300 vote against divestment.

00:10:40.980 Excellent.

00:10:42.960 Is there anything more

00:10:43.580 you'd like to add

00:10:44.340 before I let you go?

00:10:47.880 Just that, you know,

00:10:49.780 investment is good.

00:10:51.000 Divestment is bad.

00:10:53.200 Let's not hobble Canada

00:10:54.840 at the expense of

00:10:56.980 a climate,

00:11:00.560 you know,

00:11:01.360 a climate emissions reductions

00:11:03.020 that aren't happening anyway.

00:11:05.340 And Canada should be the one 0.99

00:11:06.580 to supply the demand.

00:11:09.040 Great.

00:11:09.580 Well, thank you very much

00:11:10.280 for joining us today

00:11:11.040 to talk about it

00:11:11.700 and for your work

00:11:12.320 and pushing back

00:11:13.260 against this unreasonable movement.

00:11:14.680 I hope it continues

00:11:15.860 to go well for you.

00:11:17.620 Thank you, Corey.

00:11:18.360 Thanks very much.

00:11:19.400 Canadian Shooting Sports Association.

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00:11:27.260 helping to draft

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Western Standard - April 03, 2023

Gina Pappano from InvestNow on opposition to divestment movements

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