Western Standard - August 09, 2026


HANNAFORD: BC, our home or native land?


Episode Stats


Length

22 minutes

Words per minute

140.04

Word count

3,141

Sentence count

122

Harmful content

Toxicity

3

sentences flagged

Hate speech

3

sentences flagged


Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
Toxicity classifications generated with s-nlp/roberta_toxicity_classifier .
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
00:00:00.000 Good evening, Western Standard viewers, and welcome to Hannaford, a weekly politics show
00:00:20.840 of the Western Standard. It is Thursday, August the 6th. According to recent news reports,
00:00:27.780 British Columbia's NDP government is currently negotiating a treaty with local Indian nations
00:00:35.380 that would transfer high-value public land in the heart of Victoria to the Songhees' First Nation.
00:00:43.960 The deal reportedly includes two provincially-owned downtown properties,
00:00:49.560 one beside the legislature and another on the waterfront across from Bastion Square,
00:00:54.320 with a combined assessed value of $47 million.
00:00:59.220 These apparently are to be transferred in fee simple as treaty lands.
00:01:05.160 Additional transfers include the $48 million federal Hatley Park property,
00:01:11.300 better known to most of us as Royal Roads University and before that Canada's Naval College.
00:01:19.520 Further, there is more in Discovery Island Marine Provincial Park,
00:01:24.320 and once transferred, local bylaws and zoning rules will not apply.
00:01:30.320 Public access is not guaranteed.
00:01:33.320 Consultation documents acknowledge that access could be limited or even eliminated.
00:01:41.320 The treaties are described as living agreements, meaning they can expand over time,
00:01:48.320 rather than provide final certainty.
00:01:52.320 Alex Zoltan is our BC reporter, and he joins me today to examine what this means for public
00:01:59.160 ownership, democratic oversight, and the future of Victoria's historic core. Alex, welcome to the
00:02:06.380 Hannaford Show. Thank you for having me. Oh, you're very welcome. So what's going on out there? And
00:02:12.460 like, is this even true? Yes, this is true. This story was brought to my attention by an
00:02:20.040 organization called BC Politics Watch. They've been doing excellent work bringing attention to
00:02:26.660 these issues to local and provincial journalists, and it was recently covered by former BC conservative
00:02:32.260 candidate Caroline Elliott with the National Post. So Caroline Elliott, I think she came second by a
00:02:39.560 very close margin. So we're talking about somebody here who is not a marginal person,
00:02:47.320 likely reporting on this and and who are the bc politics did you call them or politics
00:02:53.280 bc politics watch it seems to be a consortium of individuals who have been doing great work
00:02:59.100 bringing attention to a lot of these issues uh specifically bringing it to the attention of
00:03:04.460 journalists and reporters uh doing the yeoman's work so to speak freedom of information requests
00:03:10.120 attending city hall proceedings and they've been following this closely so let's talk about these
00:03:16.560 properties let's talk about the downtown victoria ones i mean many people are familiar with victoria
00:03:22.320 uh starting us from the legislature what are we uh what are we handing over well it looks like
00:03:29.840 there's three parcels of land as i understand it um so there's we were actually just discussing
00:03:36.320 this off air 100 or sorry 1112 wharf street there's another property um 613 slash 615 pandora
00:03:46.960 which is an old town building the province has already handed over and then 430 menzies street
00:03:52.360 which sits in james bay directly across from the parliament buildings okay now what's let's start
00:03:58.500 with the parliament building one what's there right now is it i believe it's a i think it's a
00:04:03.660 parking lot it's a parking lot and then the one on the one opposite bastion square for those who
00:04:09.880 might not know victoria quite so well bastion square is where the bc maritime museum was and
00:04:16.820 it's in a pleasant open space looks out onto the harbor across a parking lot so again i think
00:04:23.040 they've been given a parking lot and then on pandora street can you describe that building
00:04:29.960 well Pandora Street as you were noting earlier used to be a beautiful area of Victoria and
00:04:36.100 it's seen better times where it currently is I was just looking it up on Google Maps
00:04:41.900 if I'm not mistaken I think that there was a large homeless encampment there and it looks like that
00:04:46.760 might also be a parking lot but again it would probably be somebody who is in Victoria would
00:04:53.000 have a better idea I'm not as familiar with the location as I should be well I think Pandora
00:04:58.200 Street or Pandora Avenue was one long homeless encampment there for a while the last time I was
00:05:04.200 there it was depressing to drive through probably even more depressing to live there but anyway so
00:05:09.800 what we have done we have apparently we we the the colonial occupiers have returned to
00:05:19.560 the First Nations three parking lots now thing is are there any restrictions
00:05:27.400 on what they can do uh are they just going to be in park with uh you know with an indigenous
00:05:35.400 overtone well there's a package that was presented by the provincial government with regards to this
00:05:42.280 issue there's actually six overlapping land claims uh in the area around the victoria harbor and in
00:05:48.920 the package it says that if this land were to be transferred over in fee simple as treaty land that
00:05:54.920 they would essentially have self-governance rights and local municipal bylaws would not apply,
00:05:59.800 so it sounds like they would be fairly unrestricted in terms of what they wanted to do with the
00:06:03.400 parcels. So they could in fact, not saying they would, maybe they want it for a cultural center,
00:06:11.320 but they could put up quite a high condominium block and make a lot of money off, especially
00:06:18.280 off that one looking out over the harbor oh absolutely nothing would stop them and in fact
00:06:24.800 they would have so much autonomy over the area that it's not even guaranteed that there would
00:06:28.880 be public access um in fact one of the things that they said in the package was that this could
00:06:34.840 take some getting used to depending on what the song he's would intend to do with the area
00:06:39.940 who said it might take some getting used to i'll have to find it here in the package forgive me
00:06:49.600 there's a lot of information here this is quite a story um who said that so well okay
00:06:58.080 not to spare the spare the listeners the thing is the government of british columbia
00:07:02.820 through some authorized mouthpiece has said this is going to take some getting used to
00:07:08.920 Another way of saying that is you may not like what's coming.
00:07:14.060 Correct.
00:07:16.040 Well, isn't that nice?
00:07:20.880 I seem to recall that, was it last year or 2024, that the David Eby government transferred the entire Queen Charlotte Islands,
00:07:32.440 these days known as Haida Gwaii to the local indigenous people. Once again, I believe that 1.00
00:07:41.000 was a fee simple transfer. They have complete authority to do whatever they like. Am I correct
00:07:46.500 on this? Yes, largely correct. I know that that also flowed downstream from some court decisions
00:07:51.820 as well that recognized Aboriginal title over the area. So it wasn't necessarily a unilateral
00:07:57.260 decision from the provincial government or EV specifically.
00:08:00.980 A lot of these land transfers seem to be flowing downstream from court decisions.
00:08:05.300 Most of your viewers who are familiar with this file will know that 95% of
00:08:09.900 British Columbia is what they call unceded territory.
00:08:13.160 Unlike other provinces in Canada, we neglected to create treaties with
00:08:17.800 First Nations, and so for lack of a better phrase, you could say that the
00:08:21.840 ghosts of our colonial past are coming back to haunt us. 0.85
00:08:24.720 Well, the B.C. government does give the impression that it welcomes this and is falling over its feet to urge it along.
00:08:36.540 One of the very first things that they did when they came to power in July of 2017 was to establish the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous People as a core measuring stick for B.C.'s own legislation.
00:08:54.720 Even the federal government had not done that, certainly no other province had, but ever since then, BC legislation has been viewed by the legislature through this United Nations document.
00:09:09.740 What have we seen since then in terms of transferring control of land to indigenous peoples?
00:09:20.460 Well, actually, it's a slight correction. So the federal government does have its equivalent to UNDRIP as well. I think they passed it in 2018, if I'm not mistaken. And DRIPA, which is the provincial legislation here in BC, which codifies the United Nations Declaration of the Rights of Indigenous People, was actually passed unanimously in the House.
00:09:41.980 There was no dissent, and there was actually very little debate about it as well.
00:09:46.560 DRIPA is an interesting document because it's really an aspirational document, kind of like, you know, the Declaration of the Rights of Man.
00:09:54.160 It was never intended to be law.
00:09:57.180 And so what they did is they actually passed additional legislation that said that every statute in B.C. going forward must be in accordance with DRIPA.
00:10:05.640 This has caused enormous issues and was especially problematic after the Gitzala case, which ruled that B.C.
00:10:13.820 Sorry, which case was that, Alex?
00:10:15.780 So this was the Gitzala case.
00:10:17.740 So the Gitzala nation took to court the British Columbia government over its mining rights.
00:10:24.000 Where are they on the map?
00:10:26.820 I believe Gitzala is in northern B.C.
00:10:30.140 There are 204 First Nations in BC, some of which are not even recognized by the federal government
00:10:35.900 as being First Nations. The term First Nations, we should just address, is completely nebulous
00:10:41.100 and meaningless. It has no legal parameters. So some of these First Nations in BC are not recognized
00:10:47.820 by the federal government as under the Indian Act, but they still have incredible sway in BC.
00:10:54.540 One of these nations, which is recognized by the federal government, is the Kitzala,
00:10:58.300 And they challenged the VC government over its mining regime.
00:11:02.780 Our mining laws hadn't been changed for a very long time.
00:11:05.280 So just about anybody, I think it was like $25 and you could get a mining exploration right.
00:11:10.140 It didn't give you the right to, you know, start digging into the mountain, so to speak.
00:11:14.480 But the Gitzalo said that this was in contravention of the duty to consult and in contravention of DRIPA.
00:11:22.340 And the courts agreed.
00:11:23.980 And it's now currently being subject to appeal.
00:11:26.940 Well, you've been working on these files, Alex. As you understand it,
00:11:33.580 what is the difference between the duty to consult and the duty to get permission?
00:11:44.380 It seems to me that you can consult and consult and consult, but until
00:11:49.020 the person on the other side of the table says, yeah, okay, now you have something you can work
00:11:55.500 work with but up until that point uh the consultation must go on is that or am i
00:12:01.560 misreading things here well the duty to consult is again fairly nebulous and so there was a case
00:12:10.180 recently with the ksm gold mining project up north where the bc government had done extensive
00:12:15.700 consultation with the talton nation on that project but then another nation which had an
00:12:20.820 overlapping land claim, this Assault Ski Nixha Nation, and maybe mispronouncing that,
00:12:27.480 they challenged it and said that they were not properly consulted. Again, very interesting,
00:12:32.580 that First Nation, not recognized by the federal government under the Indian Act,
00:12:36.560 but the duty to consult still held up, and they have actually punted the whole project back to
00:12:42.400 its environmental assessment stage. Is this a case where we have two different First Nations
00:12:47.360 peoples claiming the same piece of property? 1.00
00:12:52.320 That's correct.
00:12:53.220 So I mentioned earlier that 95% of the province is what you would call legally unseeded.
00:12:57.940 There are so many overlapping land claims, Nigel, that 120% of BC's land base is currently
00:13:04.040 subject to one land claim or two due to the overabundance of overlapping claims.
00:13:09.440 This is also true in the area of Victoria that we were speaking about earlier.
00:13:12.960 There are six land claims there.
00:13:14.280 There's one area in New Westminster where I think there are as many as 15 overlapping line claims.
00:13:19.980 So we have this going on.
00:13:21.860 We had a court decision last year which basically said the indigenous peoples own Richmond, or parts of it.
00:13:33.020 600 acres.
00:13:34.560 You have the Haida Gwaii.
00:13:36.280 uh you have tell us about indian uh what's an ipaca indian protected indigenous protected and
00:13:48.480 conservation areas what are they so the indigenous consultation and protected areas
00:13:56.520 you were actually bringing that to my attention earlier um it's i wanted to make you look good
00:14:02.020 come on it's part of the well i mean it seems like i i think that that all runs downstream from the
00:14:07.940 that the flawed theory that indigenous people are stewards of the land and so it would be
00:14:15.300 more environmentally friendly if we provided them with more autonomy and self-determination
00:14:20.820 and the amount of area that's being transferred in that sense is growing exponentially as you
00:14:26.580 you noted earlier. So, okay, we're leaving the listener a little behind here. So what we're
00:14:34.460 talking about is the Indigenous Protected and Conserved Area comes under the federal
00:14:42.880 mandate from Environment Canada, in which they set off various areas and tell the local Indigenous
00:14:53.440 people here. You have stewardship of this land. It will be up to you whether any development ever
00:15:01.200 takes place. And I believe that those who want to can set terms of access. And there's quite a lot
00:15:10.200 of British Columbia that is now falling to this. Way up north, up there, there's one
00:15:17.380 Indian band that's laying claim to some astonishing. Let me just see if I can find it quickly.
00:15:25.440 Is that the Talton Nation, Nigel? Yes.
00:15:28.540 Yeah, so I think it's 11% of the province's landmass is what they're claiming.
00:15:34.180 Yes, that's right. They're getting federal government support. Now, this is from a document
00:15:45.840 I wrote seven years ago for another purpose, but in that year, Catherine McKenna was the
00:15:55.760 environment minister, and she announced a $3.9 million grant to the Taltan central government
00:16:03.360 to establish a protected and conserved area within their 90,000 square kilometer
00:16:09.520 traditional area so i don't know that it was necessarily going to be the entire
00:16:15.680 90 000 square kilometers but there is another one uh the nearby tal tan who is more ambitious
00:16:23.920 and if you actually take a a a tally of all of these you're starting to actually move into
00:16:34.240 double digits in terms of land area taken up by various forms of indigenous
00:16:40.960 ownership or control and while it is very easy for people who think this is
00:16:49.660 a wrong direction to look at David Eby the premier of British Columbia and say 0.95
00:16:55.420 the man is a dreamy fool he's just got some indigenous fascination and he wants 0.95
00:16:59.620 give the whole province back to the the back to the indians that would be one thing but i actually 0.99
00:17:07.700 think that there's rather more going on here than what's whizzing around in david eby's head for one
00:17:16.420 thing the evidence of my own researches is that the federal government is involved in this at
00:17:23.060 every level through the ministry of the environment and they have their agenda too
00:17:30.580 which is to set aside a percentage of all of canada as some kind of parkland and reserve
00:17:40.100 they call it the 30 30. can you expand on that a little
00:17:45.540 the 30 30 sorry yeah the 30 of canada's land mass should be in some form of conservation
00:17:53.060 protected status by 2030. There was 17-17, and I think they achieved 17% by 2017. That's
00:18:03.940 more or less when I wrote this. They have larger ambitions, and what Mr. Eby is doing when he makes
00:18:12.260 these kinds of gestures is feeding into that. Now, free parking lots in downtown Victoria is not
00:18:22.260 going to contribute much to the federal government's 30 30 plans but it does have an
00:18:27.940 impact as we discussed earlier with with what people can do with it or whether they can even
00:18:33.940 go on to it and nobody apparently has any say if the if the um in the decision as to how those lands
00:18:42.740 will be used but there is a larger agenda and you can sort of place the the as i say you can place
00:18:50.180 the Richmond decision, you place the Queen Charlotte decision, you can place
00:18:56.180 these protected and conserved areas, and you find yourself placing a
00:19:04.580 tremendous amount of leverage and control in hands of a fairly small part
00:19:09.260 of the British Columbia population. And it doesn't seem to be the NDP only, the
00:19:15.500 federal government is involved. And of course, UNDRIP is a United Nations thing. So just how
00:19:22.140 big does this picture get? Well, the interesting thing about UNDRIP, and I think one of the reasons
00:19:30.240 that it was passed unanimously, is that there are varying perspectives on what it could mean.
00:19:35.560 We spoke about the Talton Nation earlier, and I think that this is an interesting argument
00:19:39.900 in defense of DRIPA and UNDRIP, which is the core tenant of DRIPA is self-determination and
00:19:46.860 autonomy. And because we think of indigenous people sometimes being the stewards of the land,
00:19:52.280 which again is kind of ludicrous, people tend to think of indigenous self-determination as the
00:19:57.800 right to say no. We also typically associate indigenous people with stopping forestry projects
00:20:04.280 or mining projects or a pipeline. But in a sense, I've heard the argument made, including from folks
00:20:10.720 in the Talton Nation and others in the legislature, that DRIPA also gives these groups the right to
00:20:15.340 say yes. And so that's an interesting perspective, right? I mean, it's ironic to me that David Eby
00:20:22.380 has such a thorn in his side about the Alberta independence movement when he's one of the
00:20:27.540 largest proponents of DRIPA, which holds self-determination and autonomy as its core value.
00:20:34.640 It's ironic, to say the least. Alex, I hope you write about that one of these days. That's a
00:20:41.880 beautiful irony, and very few people are aware of it, so it's okay to be for self-determination
00:20:48.860 if you're indigenous, but if you're, you know, one of us, stay part of Canada.
00:20:56.680 Well, and when you think about it, the right for an indigenous group to say yes with regards to industrial or private projects on their traditional territory could unlock significant economic potential for BC.
00:21:10.200 So you can really look at DRIPA in two different lenses, right?
00:21:13.340 I mean, if it's the right to say no, then everything can come to a screeching halt.
00:21:16.720 But if it's the right to say yes, then it may open up doors to opportunities that we didn't previously have.
00:21:23.360 Alex, I think you have a heart for this story.
00:21:25.820 and it's only really just coming to light.
00:21:28.460 So we'll hear more from you on this.
00:21:30.840 But for today, I really thank you for coming on the show
00:21:33.380 and just laying the groundwork for us here.
00:21:36.960 But you may not be able to park off Wharf Street there for very much longer.
00:21:42.560 So thank you for coming on.
00:21:46.500 Thank you for having me, Nigel.
00:21:48.000 You're very welcome.
00:21:48.740 For the Western Standard, I'm Nigel Hannaford.
00:21:55.820 Thank you.