Western Standard - HANNAFORD： Inching to Armageddon？

00:00:00.000 good evening western standard viewers and welcome to hanaford a weekly politics show

00:00:22.400 the war between russia and ukraine seems to have risen to a new threshold of international pension

00:00:28.880 with the use of british and american-made missiles by ukraine to reach targets deep in russia meanwhile

00:00:36.720 the russians are responding in kind and they have also enlisted the north koreans it looks like the

00:00:42.960 whole thing is escalating out of control what is it with me today is professor rob hubert

00:00:50.080 from the university of calgary center for military and strategic studies one of the leading centers

00:00:55.680 of excellence in military and strategic studies in north america welcome rob hi nigel nice to see you

00:01:02.720 rob you're known internationally as an expert in the politics of the arctic and in maritime

00:01:08.640 and strategic studies and the latter i think is a polite way to describe a study among other

00:01:13.920 things of how nuclear war might be fought rob is the serious possibility of nuclear war

00:01:20.560 what we're really looking at in eastern europe now well it looks as if the dangers are increasing

00:01:28.640 um again everyone will always say it's low probability but the issue is in what direction

00:01:34.240 does that probability go we have three factors at heart that you've more or less outlined in

00:01:39.440 your introduction the first one is of course the type of weapons that we're talking about we've

00:01:44.720 seen a very continuous effort on the part of the russians and the chinese to build weapons that can

00:01:52.240 evade the american anti-missile defense so in fact we've got the hypersonics the new type of

00:01:58.880 poseidon the new delivery systems that are designed to basically evade the americans

00:02:04.240 this means they are incredibly fast and they're incredibly stealthy the second factor that we have

00:02:10.640 that shows an indication of the increase of the threat is that for the first time since the

00:02:17.920 end of the Cuban Missile Crisis, we have a Soviet slash Russian leader threatening to use nuclear

00:02:25.200 weapons. That type of rhetoric basically at the conclusion of the Cuban Missile Crisis when

00:02:30.480 Khrushchev and Kennedy both realized that they would be committing mutual suicide with the

00:02:34.960 weapons systems that they had at the time, if in fact nuclear weapons came to be utilized,

00:02:40.400 you just simply didn't see the Soviet leadership ever really threatening. I mean, there were one

00:02:44.880 or two sort of background threats, you know, at the 73 war, but nothing over where they're saying,

00:02:52.640 we will use nuclear weapons. And so the fact that Putin is very loudly and repeatedly saying it

00:03:01.120 is a very troubling sign. And the third point, as you so eloquently begin your introduction with,

00:03:07.920 is the fact that we are seeing an increasing use of the different types of delivery systems that

00:03:13.680 the russians have at their avail and so there's a certain degree of learning how to use these

00:03:18.640 weapon systems how they you know which ones can be shot down which ones cannot and so that we

00:03:23.520 see the russians probably trying to learn what works best which means that if the the situation

00:03:30.560 start continues to escalate as we are seeing it go so the russians are trying to figure out how

00:03:36.080 to do it and all of these three factors are combined are very troubling rob it seems that

00:03:42.400 this took off after president biden who had already uh seen his party defeated in the u.s

00:03:50.320 national election gave permission to ukraine to use american missiles that to that point had been

00:03:58.960 held back i guess the thought was that these were more sophisticated more likely to be effective

00:04:04.880 and, therefore, it would represent an escalation in the war

00:04:09.720 if those weapons were brought out and used.

00:04:13.600 Now, at this point, you have a president-elect sitting there.

00:04:20.640 He's not in favor of the war in Ukraine,

00:04:22.880 and at the same time you have, I'll have to say,

00:04:26.400 the lame duck president on the way out giving this authorization

00:04:30.320 to use these more sophisticated weapons and up the ante.

00:04:35.780 What was going on there?

00:04:37.820 Well, I would think that you actually have to take it even further back

00:04:41.900 because, I mean, again, Western leadership does not like to acknowledge it,

00:04:46.200 but the war actually starts in 2014.

00:04:48.680 It doesn't start in 2022.

00:04:50.600 And so many people are saying, well, how do we understand the escalatory processes

00:04:54.960 that you've just outlined in terms of Biden giving permission to fire the missiles into Russia?

00:05:00.320 if you look in terms of how the western states have tried to figure out how to support

00:05:05.920 the ukrainians after the russians invaded and seized a good proportion of their territory in 2014

00:05:12.400 we've seen this sort of okay how much of a of weapons can we have in canada of course

00:05:17.680 we had the whole debate between 2014 to 20 uh 2022 do we provide them with lethal aid or non-lethal

00:05:25.040 aid and that was a a very pointed debate within canadian circles the ultimate decision being

00:05:30.160 made not to provide lethal aid and we've seen this with the americans we've seen this and it

00:05:35.440 doesn't matter if it's republican or democrat how much can you provide to ensure that you have a

00:05:42.720 first and foremost an avoidance of a ukrainian defeat and then secondary from that a ukrainian

00:05:48.240 victory which has been put in terms of the return of the conquered territories and so the problem

00:05:54.880 that has occurred is that the russians have been able to maintain the pace of attack for i think a

00:06:00.800 lot longer time than people thought was going to be happening at the same time the ukrainian

00:06:05.520 resistance has been has been very dogged and so we have this almost world war one style you know

00:06:11.360 sort of in your face type battle but the question is well okay how do you actually apply enough force

00:06:18.560 to achieve your your objective victory depending on which side you're on and do so so that you

00:06:24.800 do not escalate it beyond the boundaries of the current conflict and so we've seen a continuation

00:06:31.120 of the improvement of the type of forces for example there was a huge debate should we be

00:06:36.480 providing the ukrainians from the west with air power and we know that that decision was actually

00:06:42.080 ultimately crossed and there are f-16s that ukrainians are now now training on and so the

00:06:47.200 decision to allow the ukrainians to use missiles to hit safe military zones where of course the

00:06:53.520 russians were staging much of their attack in ukraine is a logical progression in the nature 1.00

00:07:00.080 of the military battle and so i would think that no all western leaders that are serious about

00:07:06.400 providing assistance to ukraine are facing this escalation issue how much do you provide enough

00:07:14.400 since the russians have been able to maintain their attack and not go over the limit and and

00:07:20.960 this is a learning process for biden for trump uh for for any of the leaders that we see actively

00:07:27.280 providing assistance so this is a this is still then in the war fighting zone it's not yet in the

00:07:41.120 deterrence zone because if they were talking about deterrence they would do something dramatic to

00:07:47.760 make a point am i correct in that well we're past the for for the regional nature of the conflict

00:07:55.360 we're past the deterrent they're into the war fighting and one side or the other will ultimately

00:08:00.960 be able to achieve the majority of its objectives it means basically either the ukrainians are 0.97

00:08:06.480 successful in seeing the something that forces the russians out of the eastern ukraine and out 0.99

00:08:12.960 of Crimea and a cessation to battle, or on the Russian side where they're able to exhaust the

00:08:19.040 Ukrainians and basically hold on to that territory and presumably put in a puppet government in that

00:08:26.160 regard. And so we pass the ability to deter each of those two sides on the nature of this issue,

00:08:34.400 and so we're in war fighting. The question of deterrence then goes to what the great powers

00:08:40.080 are doing with their nuclear weapons and in that context we're still in deterrence in other words

00:08:44.160 we haven't seen the russians actually make good of any of their threats that they both have stated

00:08:49.520 and and the policy changes that they have for their nuclear doctrine which is to increase the

00:08:53.760 threshold of what or decrease the threshold for when they feel that they can utilize the weapons

00:08:59.200 that deterrence is still in play here the question is well what happens if this goes on even longer

00:09:06.160 and the Russians decide to escalate on their side. And then that's the question of, well,

00:09:12.320 does Putin make good on his threats in some capacity to use nuclear weapons? And at that point,

00:09:19.280 deterrence breaks down considerably. It doesn't go away. It could still be a situation

00:09:24.480 where the Americans, British, and French, who all have nuclear weapons, still deter from

00:09:30.000 utilizing them against the russians and the russians deter from utilizing it against the

00:09:37.040 the nato countries but again everything is in flux right now excuse me yes um it is in flux and

00:09:47.920 one other thing we haven't mentioned so far is the arrival reportedly of north korean troops

00:09:54.880 in theater the initial report was 10 000. i have seen other reports that i haven't seen confirmed

00:10:02.160 that it could be as many as 100 000. obviously that's a significant reinforcement to the uh to

00:10:09.600 the russian forces uh does this start to make if you've got the north koreans coming in on the

00:10:17.200 russian side and we know they've been feeding ammunition to the to the russians for some time

00:10:22.320 meanwhile you've got the united states and great britain and europe feeding russians into the

00:10:29.600 ukrainian side and authorizing their use it's starting to look like this is no longer a

00:10:36.640 struggle in eastern europe but something that you could almost call a world struggle not a war

00:10:42.640 because it's not happening in the far east yet or in in the rest of europe but i mean it's a

00:10:49.360 global implications here. Oh, absolutely. I mean, for your viewers that have a historical orientation,

00:10:57.360 shades of the Spanish Civil War come forward again. We start thinking in the context of,

00:11:03.040 of course, the Western support for the Republican forces, and we think of the German and Italian

00:11:13.120 support of the nationalist forces, and how ultimately we saw a similar escalation of weapons.

00:11:18.320 Remember, the Germans actually supplied direct bombers and fighters to the nationalist force

00:11:25.280 in their fight. So again, over time, we saw that escalatory in the internationalization.

00:11:31.040 I think to put it even further into contact, this internationalization that you talk about,

00:11:36.000 you even have to go back probably to 2008. And that is, of course, where we saw a very

00:11:40.880 messy situation in Georgia that gets tied into the discussions that NATO was having about whether or

00:11:46.960 not georgia and ukraine at that point should be joining nato and again there's all sorts of you

00:11:53.120 can have all sorts of debates in terms of how you are seeing the the the actual catalyst for

00:12:00.000 russian involvement but the net effect is that international nature of what happens in georgia

00:12:06.640 in 208 to a very large degree starts many of these processes in in going nato's talking about

00:12:13.280 allowing Georgia to come into membership. The Russians then find a reason to go in and use 0.97

00:12:20.480 military force to stop that discussion, which of course, it stopped at that point. And we fast

00:12:26.800 forward to 2014, when the same type of discussion starts happening, except in this case, you know,

00:12:32.960 and again, if you want to use a historical analogy, you think of the total lack of response that the

00:12:37.680 west had when the germ is of course intervened in austria to stop to basically integrate that

00:12:43.360 society and then the western realization at czechoslovakia had to do more but still not

00:12:48.240 being able to do it so you go 208 204 you think 19 i'm going to get my date slightly wrong i think

00:12:54.000 it's 36 37 and then of course you get up into poland and so this is the danger the the very

00:13:00.480 nature of that internationalization that you talk about so you know points to how serious this

00:13:06.400 conflict is in the scale that it is being played for and so again we start thinking the horrific

00:13:13.120 you know similarities to history may not be repeating exactly but you know somebody said

00:13:18.400 history may not repeat itself but it certainly rhymes with itself and so we see this escalation

00:13:24.800 continuing and it gets back to your very initial point about how dangerous this is becoming

00:13:29.760 obviously if you're in ukraine extremely dangerous but now that um british missiles have been used

00:13:37.060 uh i don't know whether american ones have but certainly the 0.70

00:13:40.820 anglo-french storm shadow missiles have been have been actually fired at targets i mean the

00:13:48.940 possibility of some kind of hostile gesture towards great britain and into france is is no

00:13:54.880 longer off the table. Two things I think we need to really talk about. One is if we're going to go

00:14:02.660 into the history of this, the czarist policy in the 19th century and the 18th century was to have

00:14:10.700 a string of essentially demilitarized states between themselves and Western Europe. In our

00:14:19.840 own time there are people i mean the french tried to invade russia did invade russia in 1812

00:14:27.020 there are people alive today in russia who would remember the german forces invading in 1941 42

00:14:34.500 it seems reasonable to imagine how the russians would feel more comfortable having a string of

00:14:44.060 neutral states between them and Germany, and they see parts of Ukraine as being that.

00:14:52.860 The Ukrainians hate that idea, but first of all, we've got to come to what's the Canadian

00:14:58.460 role in this, but is there any merit in believing that the Russians want to establish a zone

00:15:07.540 of neutrality and then they'll stop?

00:15:10.660 Well, the problem with that argumentation, and I've heard it, is, of course, the Western willingness to provide the Soviet-slash-Russians, when it's transitioning under Gorbachev, you know, very substantial assistance, both directly in terms of the demobilization of their nuclear forces, the ability to bring them in.

00:15:32.880 And so, for that argument to hold, and it tends to be the narrative that Russian observers

00:15:38.100 tend to provide, is that you have to illustrate that NATO actually intends to somehow invade

00:15:44.200 Russia, that it is going to be the aggressor to try to transform or change Russia itself. 0.54

00:15:50.640 The other part, if we're going to do the historical analysis, and this becomes the counter to

00:15:54.500 the point, is of course the history between the Ukrainians and the Russians is one of

00:15:59.320 terrorization to a very large degree.

00:16:01.500 We think of the starvation during the periods of the 1930s were very significant proportions.

00:16:07.840 And one that even goes back to the Civil War, where we know there were extreme acts of brutality

00:16:13.100 in 1919, 1920, after the First World War ends, but we start having the battles between the

00:16:18.800 Ukrainians and the Bolsheviks as they try to achieve either independence or control.

00:16:24.420 We go to the 1930s.

00:16:25.980 We go to the post-World War, Second World War treatment of the Ukrainians, which, again, until 1954, tends to be equally bad.

00:16:35.000 In 1954, it's when Khrushchev comes roughly within power, and we start seeing a little bit of a liberalization of their content.

00:16:43.180 And so rather than taking the Russian narrative that, in fact, they need this zone, because it always comes back to, well, zone against what?

00:16:50.780 I mean, there's been no indication of NATO that NATO represents a Napoleon or Hitler,

00:16:56.700 because that's where that argument has to stand.

00:16:59.700 With your saying, well, we have to focus in terms of the treatment of the Ukrainian people in particular,

00:17:05.920 that's where history is clearly that the type of defensive guarantees that Ukrainians start trying to seek,

00:17:13.360 roughly 2020, 2008 to 2014 in that era,

00:17:17.460 really after there's a change of government in Ukraine in 2014, then that, of course, very much changes.

00:17:23.560 Then you have an authoritative leadership trying to reimpose its, well, to be blunt, horrific treatments of a certain population.

00:17:32.660 And so once again, you can take the Napoleon and Hitler, but you have to find who is that person then within the NATO. 0.57

00:17:39.900 And of course, the answer is, well, there is no one.

00:17:41.860 But you can look at the suffering that has been bestowed upon the Ukrainians in the self-defense that they want.

00:17:48.720 And so that's where that argument, in my view, falls apart.

00:17:52.200 So if I were to pursue that argument further, I would say, well, from the Russian point of view,

00:17:56.860 having a hostile state right on its western border, that would be Ukraine,

00:18:02.880 isn't that a bit like having Russian missiles on Cuba in 1962?

00:18:09.500 No wonder the Americans reacted like a, you know, like a cat on a hot tin roof when that was starting to go.

00:18:17.940 Why would the Russians not feel anxious about having the Western-orientated, Western-armed, Western-supported, hostile Ukraine on their Western border?

00:18:31.860 Well, they weren't, I mean, they don't become Western-armed until the second phase of the war.

00:18:36.720 In other words, there's a huge reluctance to the West to provide any real meaningful munitions.

00:18:42.140 And remember, again, for that argument to stand, you'd have to say, OK, well, does Ukraine at any point represent a threat?

00:18:48.420 Remember, the Ukrainians get rid of their nuclear weapons. 0.69

00:18:52.380 When the Soviet Union dissolves, Ukraine, Belarus, and Kallostan all have nuclear weapons.

00:18:59.320 And as newly independent states, they are recognized to be able to have the right to contain it.

00:19:04.540 They voluntarily gave up those offensive weapons to demonstrate to the Russians that they posed no threat. 0.71

00:19:11.640 Russia chose to keep its nuclear weapons.

00:19:14.140 And so once again, in that equation, the Ukrainians did about as much as you could possibly do 0.99

00:19:19.400 to demonstrate that they were not going to retain the capability to really meaningful threaten the Russians.

00:19:25.640 They weren't getting America. 0.76

00:19:26.860 They weren't getting Western offensive weapon capabilities until 2022.

00:19:31.120 and they foresaw the nuclear weapons on the guarantee that Russia would never attack them.

00:19:39.820 And so the Russians broke that agreement, the Ukrainians, I think.

00:19:43.460 There are some observers who have said that there is a regret that they did not retain them

00:19:48.460 because that could have possibly been a form of deterrence that we were talking about earlier.

00:19:52.880 Too late for that, I'm afraid.

00:19:55.100 All of this is over there.

00:19:56.860 We are over here in Canada.

00:19:58.920 It's not our problem.

00:20:00.000 What do you say to that, Rob?

00:20:02.260 No, that's totally wrong.

00:20:04.180 Since the development of the Cold War, Canada has played a critical role in the deterrence system.

00:20:12.080 And the way that we have played that role is geography and our alliance with the Americans and subsequently with the Western Europeans.

00:20:19.980 After the Cuban Missile Crisis, when it became clear that nuclear war at that point had been a possibility,

00:20:26.400 both sides took steps to ensure that each side knew that any use of nuclear weapons would be

00:20:32.160 mutual suicide, you know, the policy of MAD, mutual assured destruction. And so that the Russians and 0.95

00:20:37.920 the Soviets and the Americans developed weapon systems that could be launched to destroy the

00:20:45.120 other side. They weren't about achieving military victory. They were about total destruction of the

00:20:50.240 major cities and populations in the system it's a bizarre system when you work out its logic

00:20:56.960 because it means you have to cooperate with both sides to develop these weapon systems but also

00:21:02.720 develop a warning system so that if the other side ever does attack you you've got enough time

00:21:08.880 to get your missiles up to kill them and it's that knowledge of mutual destruction that stops

00:21:14.720 you from ever firing in the first place so you may be hating whatever the soviets are doing or the

00:21:19.600 soviets may be hating whatever the west is doing but it's not enough to say okay well i'm still

00:21:24.720 going to launch my missiles knowing i will die also and as part of that of the surveillance

00:21:30.720 system to assure that we have as much confidence as one can ever have in these issues you needed

00:21:37.120 to of course have the ability to detect any incoming missiles and the geography the arctic

00:21:43.040 the geography of canada has meant that we are a critical part of that detection system it starts

00:21:48.720 with the mid-Canada warning line, it develops into the due line, distant early warning system,

00:21:54.400 and it morphs into the north warning system, which of course is now being modernized to continue

00:22:00.800 the deterrence against the Russians. And so Canada is a critical component of it. 0.90

00:22:06.320 Canada also plays a critical role in the defense of the region by our alliance with the Americans

00:22:13.600 through the NORAD agreement and so once again it's all out of sight out of mind people don't

00:22:19.040 want to think about the what nuclear deterrence actually means but Canada is a critical player in

00:22:24.640 it our working with the Americans remains a critical element and if you are going to deter

00:22:30.480 the Russians from thinking about the possibilities that we are discussing here you have to ensure 0.99

00:22:35.680 that they they totally believe you when you say we're going to know anything you do and we can

00:22:41.840 therefore have the ability to respond within time and we will not suffer a surprise we will not

00:22:47.900 suffer a defeating surprise attack you may launch a surprise attack you're going down with us and

00:22:52.720 that that's where canada plays its role i know rob that in the past you have been consulted by the

00:22:59.200 government of canada on matters such as this if you were to be asked now whether canada is doing

00:23:08.060 what it needs to be doing in the situation,

00:23:11.380 and is there more that it should be doing?

00:23:15.180 What would your advice be?

00:23:17.320 Well, my advice is that we basically understood what is necessary.

00:23:21.720 You can find it in both the security and defense statements

00:23:25.380 of the Harper government.

00:23:26.780 You can find it within the Trudeau government,

00:23:29.260 read Strong, Secure, and Engage,

00:23:31.320 and the recently announced defense update.

00:23:34.340 All of them point to an understanding

00:23:36.000 about modernization of NORAD, which is implicitly stating, yes, we get it. We have to play our role

00:23:42.660 in terms of deterrence of the new weapon systems. And Manchin is made of hypersonics and other

00:23:47.080 delivery systems. The problem that we've always faced is that starting from the point of Crutchin

00:23:52.720 on, we haven't paid the piper. In other words, we understand it. The policy position, if you

00:24:00.200 really read it carefully. If you read the standing committee, which is government-led but includes

00:24:07.340 the opposition parties, if you read the reports that come out of committee, both on defense and

00:24:11.840 foreign policy, you'll see we understand it. We get it. The question is, though, what we've avoided

00:24:16.500 for actually paying what we get. So if I was advising government, it would be we got to pay

00:24:21.820 for what we say we're going to be doing. Now, there are signs that we are starting to do that.

00:24:27.040 There are significant indications that since 2022, we've started taking serious about paying for the elements of NORAD modernization, that the wheels are now starting to be oiled because they've become so rusty, one could say, that this is starting to move.

00:24:45.540 But the problem is, is it in time?

00:24:48.360 Because what we have to be mostly concerned with is, of course, that our enemies, and

00:24:53.600 that is the Russians and presumably the Chinese on that, do not see us as sort of a weak link

00:24:59.260 within the overall detection system.

00:25:02.460 And equally problematic, we can't be seen as a weak link by our American allies.

00:25:07.540 Regardless if it's a Democrat or a Republican, they can't be thinking that we are allowing

00:25:13.320 a kink in terms of the detection system and so therefore to come back i would be saying we've

00:25:19.160 got to be really putting the full uh body press and it has to be an ongoing effort it can't just

00:25:25.320 simply be some announcement of a defense minister getting up in front of a an old f-18 saying we've

00:25:31.560 just spent four billion dollars next subject please this has to be an ongoing rebuilding and

00:25:37.640 modernization um you know you can say okay well we got to meet two percent two percent in my mind

00:25:43.400 is a somewhat arbitrary figure that we have picked but what it suggests is that we need to be doing

00:25:49.080 more we need to have a system that is using the capabilities of 2024 not 1985 because northern

00:25:57.240 the last time we had a major update was 85 and so that's where we have to be going we have to

00:26:02.760 to be getting the F-35s up and running. We have to be getting the new river class operational.

00:26:08.040 We have to be talking summaries. All of this is extensive. All of this is expensive. But it fits

00:26:13.160 into the ability to assure the enemies that we as Canada are not a weak link. We will respond

00:26:20.680 accordingly. We're almost out of time, Rob. Let me ask you this one last question. In six months'

00:26:30.400 time, is the situation going to look much the same? Or does there come a point when it goes

00:26:36.940 this way or that way? See, the problem with this is the difficulty of understanding at what point

00:26:43.260 of the exhaustion scale are the Ukrainians and the Russians. There have been repeated suggestions

00:26:49.320 that the Russian economy is on the teeter of collapse, but we've been seeing this discussion

00:26:53.500 for some time. We've seen equal discussions that the Ukrainians are literally exhausted, 0.99

00:26:59.780 both in terms of people and equipment. The problem is we don't know. We don't know what

00:27:05.380 is happening behind the scenes, and that is always the difficulty of being able to bring

00:27:09.860 any crystal ball forward. I think that it's going to really depend on what happens when Trump takes

00:27:16.740 over, and the questions will surround in terms of the degree of support that he's willing to

00:27:22.500 maintain to the Ukrainians, and whether or not, as some observers have suggested, his claims of

00:27:29.060 ending the war in a day is basically forcing the Ukrainians to accept Russian terms.

00:27:34.660 I mean, once again, without knowing what is actually happening as opposed to what people

00:27:39.140 think is happening, it's incredibly difficult. It could go either way or even worse. It could

00:27:45.060 just simply continue to exist as this grinding war that sees a slow weapon escalation. And of

00:27:53.060 course, the joker in the deck is, at what point do the Chinese feel that they can in fact start 0.96

00:27:58.980 uh following some of this usage of military force to reclaim territories that they believe um that

00:28:06.900 they um are associated with and that of course means taiwan because a war in the asia pacific

00:28:13.460 region involving the americans and of course changes the calculation as well so we are just

00:28:19.380 i mean the crystal ball that i have tells me we're just in an increasingly dangerous environment

00:28:24.980 with such degrees of uncertainty that things can really get worse really quickly i was hoping you

00:28:32.420 were going to give us something hopeful rob maybe that's maybe that's not available just now we'll

00:28:37.700 have you back to talk about this again as the situation matures but for now i just want to

00:28:44.260 thank you on behalf of western standard viewers for for coming on and sharing the sharing the kind

00:28:50.500 of information you would be sharing with government if they were to ask you rob thanks very much

00:28:58.020 thank you angel of the center for military and strategic studies in calgary and for the western

00:29:06.740 Standard and Nigel Hannaford.

Western Standard - November 26, 2024

HANNAFORD： Inching to Armageddon？

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