Western Standard - HANNAFORD： Safer in Israel than Toronto

00:00:00.000 Good evening, Western Standard viewers, and welcome to Hannaford, a weekly politics show.

00:00:21.280 I'm Nigel Hannaford, and it is Thursday, December the 18th, and I am speaking today still trying

00:00:27.880 to get my head wrapped around what is happening to Jewish population around the world.

00:00:33.620 Just four days ago, there was a savage massacre in Australia, Bondi Beach, the famous Bondi

00:00:42.200 Beach.

00:00:43.200 It's like a massacre happening at the foot of the CN Tower in Toronto.

00:00:46.780 You can't look the other way.

00:00:48.680 Fifteen people killed because they were Jews, apparently by Islamist terrorists, and I am

00:00:56.600 joined today by Vivian Berkovich, who was appointed Canadian Ambassador to Israel in 2014 by Stephen

00:01:04.660 Harper.

00:01:06.560 She lives these days in a kibbutz in Israel, where through her podcasts, her writings, and

00:01:10.660 her television commentaries, she's a tireless advocate for Jewish people everywhere.

00:01:15.320 It is because of that that we're talking to her today to try and make some sense of this.

00:01:20.000 Vivian's past guest.

00:01:21.000 Vivian, welcome back to the show.

00:01:22.600 Vivian Berkovich, pleasure to be here with you, Nigel.

00:01:24.880 Thanks for having me.

00:01:25.880 Oh, you're very welcome.

00:01:26.880 Vivian, it seems a lot longer than four days ago.

00:01:30.980 There has been so much else.

00:01:31.980 There seems to be a pattern of random attacks on Jewish people.

00:01:37.920 What is going on?

00:01:38.920 Well, I think that we are finally seeing the fruits of two-plus years of momentum.

00:01:48.340 The Free Palestine Movement, Globalize the Intifada, whatever you want to call it.

00:01:54.860 It's a kind of convergence of various political and other interests, the so-called progressives

00:02:00.740 on the extreme left, the free Palestine folks, the fundamentalist Islamists, so pro-Hamas, pro-Isis, 0.89

00:02:10.620 and there are many out there, and others.

00:02:13.740 And the one thing that they seem to agree on, because they come from very different kind 0.96

00:02:19.840 of philosophies, but the one thing they seem to agree on is that Israel is the most evil 0.97

00:02:27.940 state to ever have existed. 1.00

00:02:32.100 that it must be annihilated, eradicated, and that all Jews must be killed. 1.00

00:02:39.480 When people are screaming on the streets in Toronto, as they have been for two-plus years, 1.00

00:02:46.200 Globalize the Intifada, from the river to the sea, Palestine shall be free.

00:02:52.540 Our successive prime ministers, so Mark Carney and Trudeau before him, premiers, mayors,

00:02:59.440 law enforcement officials have been telling us for two-plus years that these are peaceful

00:03:03.600 protests with individuals exercising their constitutional rights.

00:03:07.720 It was malarkey on October 7th, and it remains malarkey today.

00:03:12.260 There is nothing peaceful about calling for the annihilation of Israel and the murder of 0.96

00:03:16.820 Jews everywhere. 0.96

00:03:18.040 Well, Limeon, if you're going to annihilate Jews, why do it in Australia? 0.99

00:03:23.600 That's a long way from Israel. 1.00

00:03:25.600 They're Jews. 1.00

00:03:26.600 They just hate you. 0.99

00:03:27.600 Yeah, but they're a long way away, isn't they? 0.98

00:03:31.780 You know, if it makes sense to attack Jews in Australia, does it make sense to attack Jews 0.63

00:03:38.780 in Canada? 0.97

00:03:39.780 Sure.

00:03:40.780 How anxious are you?

00:03:41.780 Well, I mean, I used to spend a lot more time in Canada than I do now, and a large part

00:03:46.660 of the reason is because of what it's become since October 7th.

00:03:50.300 How anxious would I be if I was living there?

00:03:52.880 Very.

00:03:54.600 I was in Toronto, my hometown, where I lived over 50 years.

00:03:57.840 I still have a kid there, lots of family and friends.

00:04:00.840 I was there in April in the lead up to the election, and people were unnerved, but not

00:04:06.540 totally freaked out yet.

00:04:08.840 I was back in September, and it's just Venus and Mars.

00:04:12.600 The Jewish community in September was terrified.

00:04:16.940 Canada has changed a lot since Mark Carney took office, and it shows.

00:04:23.660 It shows in the statistics, and it shows in the fear.

00:04:26.900 I spent three days.

00:04:27.900 I just couldn't even be there.

00:04:28.900 It's a very hard place to be if you're Jewish.

00:04:30.900 That's an astonishing thing.

00:04:35.140 I mean, many Jews emigrated to Canada over the years because they thought it was a safe

00:04:41.140 place.

00:04:42.140 I think, by and large, for most of the time that I've been in journalism, which goes back

00:04:46.380 50 years, there was a very strong, almost to the point where people resented it, that

00:04:52.900 there was a very strong influence on public policy by the Canadian Jewish population.

00:05:00.380 Obviously, that kind of general acceptance is not helping Jews in Canada today.

00:05:09.720 Let me ask you a very direct, blunt question.

00:05:12.140 Do you think there's going to be a nasty incident like this in Canada soon?

00:05:16.620 So, I'll answer it this way.

00:05:19.960 I think that there, but for the grace of God.

00:05:23.160 So, we're just lucky that it hasn't happened yet.

00:05:25.860 That's right.

00:05:26.860 Well, it's happening in other places on a smaller scale.

00:05:30.820 It seems like hardly a week goes by that there isn't a report of a murder where the obvious

00:05:37.620 conclusion can only be that it was an anti-Semitic hit.

00:05:42.420 You mentioned, I think, some attacks in the United States, there was a couple of universities.

00:05:48.980 Just tell us what is going on, and then I want you to tell, is this random, or is it

00:05:53.300 an informal strategy to intimidate Jews wherever they live?

00:05:57.420 It's not random.

00:05:59.840 In terms of, since Bondi, as best I can recall, sort of off the top of my head, there was a

00:06:06.860 shooting on campus at Brown University.

00:06:09.940 It was a kind of pre-exam tutorial.

00:06:12.760 I believe that the expectation of the shooter, um, was probably that the Jewish professor 0.89

00:06:19.600 who runs that course was going to be attending, um, and giving the seminar or the tutorial.

00:06:25.620 The Jewish professor was not there.

00:06:27.100 A few days later, um, a Jewish professor at MIT, a physicist, um, originally from Portugal,

00:06:35.780 I've been in America for many years, uh, 47 years old, young children, young family.

00:06:40.540 Someone broke into his apartment in Brookline, Massachusetts and murdered.

00:06:44.960 Apparently he is known for being pro-Israel.

00:06:48.440 Um, and he's openly Jewish.

00:06:51.740 Um, there was a man in the last few days on the streets of Brooklyn, uh, attacked, a visibly

00:06:59.520 Jewish man, sort of wearing Orthodox clothing, Orthodox Jewish clothing.

00:07:03.120 And he was attacked and stabbed, uh, within an inch of his life, I believe.

00:07:07.580 Um, and, and those are just a few that kind of pop into my head.

00:07:11.140 But even more concerning, Nigel is the fact that within hours at Bondi, there were people

00:07:19.620 coming out and celebrating what had happened there within hours of Bondi in Toronto, at

00:07:28.220 the corner of Bathurst and Shepherd, a major intersection in the north end of the city.

00:07:31.760 It's got a lot of Jewish residents.

00:07:34.740 The, there was a Hanukkah lighting, just like there had been at Bondi.

00:07:39.000 There was a lighting, a public Hanukkah menorah lighting at an intersection in Toronto.

00:07:45.620 And for two plus years now, every week, every Sunday, the Islamists, the free Palestine crowd 0.97

00:07:55.560 have come to that intersection to harass Jews who are not doing anything illegal, who are 0.61

00:08:04.200 not threatening them.

00:08:06.140 They're standing there to demonstrate their support for Israel.

00:08:10.760 They have harassed them relentlessly, but they also go to the shops.

00:08:15.620 Where they know Jews are shopping or that are Jewish owned.

00:08:17.960 And in the last six, eight months, they've taken to parading through the residential streets,

00:08:23.220 quiet residential streets, and harassing Jewish families outside their homes, saying the most

00:08:29.240 horrific things in front of children.

00:08:30.900 And do you know what the police do?

00:08:32.700 Nothing.

00:08:33.740 Do you know what the police did on Sunday after Bondi?

00:08:37.640 Nothing, but worse than nothing.

00:08:39.520 There was a man who was standing at the corner of Bathurst and Shepard.

00:08:45.560 He's well-known.

00:08:47.580 And he's an Islamist, free Palestine activist.

00:08:50.940 He had a loudspeaker and a microphone.

00:08:53.280 And he was singing at length in Arabic.

00:08:56.400 I have a translation of the lyrics he was singing. 0.97

00:08:58.960 And it glorifies attacking and murdering Jews in the name of Allah. 1.00

00:09:04.620 This went on and on and on. 0.97

00:09:07.120 The police are standing there, protecting this.

00:09:10.920 And when they later parade into the Jewish neighborhoods, the police tell the Jews,

00:09:17.500 be quiet.

00:09:18.560 Be nice to them.

00:09:19.860 Let them pass.

00:09:21.060 Clear the sidewalk from them.

00:09:23.640 Sorry, clear the sidewalk for them. 0.73

00:09:25.340 This is insanity.

00:09:29.820 This individual singing the kind of song that you sing, that sounds like hate speech.

00:09:37.240 One would think.

00:09:40.940 And yet, nothing.

00:09:42.700 You know, Vivian, I don't understand the government responses.

00:09:47.720 Five minutes after the Bondi shooting, the Australian Prime Minister, Mr. Albanese,

00:09:52.540 starts talking about the need for stronger gun laws and clamping down on right-wing extremists.

00:09:59.980 Well, no.

00:10:02.040 The problem at Bondi wasn't the availability of guns.

00:10:05.500 It was the availability of radical Islamists.

00:10:09.820 Where they can't get guns, they just drive the car into a crowd.

00:10:13.160 Or you describe people with knife attacks and so forth.

00:10:16.080 Now, it seems what you have just said about the response in Toronto that they stood by,

00:10:25.900 they knew this was hate speech, they didn't intervene,

00:10:30.860 they don't actually divert these demonstrations away from the Jewish neighborhoods.

00:10:38.020 Why, in your view, is, what is it that our leaders are deliberately not joining the dots

00:10:46.780 because they'd rather not admit there's a problem?

00:10:49.420 What do you think is the bigger picture here?

00:10:51.780 So, first of all, I want to just point out, in addition to what you commented on with respect

00:10:55.840 to Prime Minister Albanese, he has, as have so many of us, including me, in my column that I wrote

00:11:01.740 that day for the National Post, he has lauded the heroism of Ahmed Al-Akhmed.

00:11:06.540 He is a Muslim man, originally from Syria, I believe, and unarmed, he went and tackled

00:11:13.740 one of the gunmen, took him down and grabbed his gun.

00:11:18.220 And he was later shot.

00:11:19.780 And he's quite badly wounded and in hospital.

00:11:22.320 The man's a hero.

00:11:22.960 He also had police training, which came out in the ensuing days.

00:11:27.940 Mr. Ahmed, Mr. Al-Akhmed, was visited by Prime Minister Albanese in hospital.

00:11:33.780 The Prime Minister did not visit any of the Jewish victims in hospital.

00:11:38.960 The Prime Minister has not gone to any of the Jewish funerals that have been held today and yesterday,

00:11:45.040 including the funeral for 10-year-old Matilda, sorry, Matilda, who was gunned down.

00:11:51.280 She was stalked.

00:11:52.540 Her parents watched as she was stalked by one of the gunmen.

00:11:57.660 Her execution has horrified people around the world.

00:12:02.140 Prime Minister Albanese did not go to her funeral.

00:12:06.420 There are two Jewish people, an elderly couple, well, elderly, a little older than me,

00:12:11.320 who tried to tackle one of the gunmen before he even got going.

00:12:18.360 And this was captured on video.

00:12:21.180 And they were murdered.

00:12:23.260 They were heroes.

00:12:24.820 Yes.

00:12:25.320 A couple in their 60s.

00:12:26.700 And Albanese has not mentioned them.

00:12:29.620 Do you know what else he hasn't mentioned, as you said?

00:12:31.940 He hasn't mentioned Islamism.

00:12:35.180 He hasn't mentioned Islamist terror.

00:12:37.020 And another thing that we know about the two men, the father and son team,

00:12:41.400 who went to shoot Jews at Bondi Beach on Sunday,

00:12:44.060 is that they were both training with an ISIS cell in the Philippines one month ago.

00:12:50.320 So what do you think explains this very selective response

00:12:54.280 that the Australian Prime Minister has offered here?

00:12:57.980 Well, there are two options, Nigel.

00:12:59.800 One is that he simply doesn't understand what's going on.

00:13:05.760 And the other is that he chooses not to act.

00:13:10.220 And why would he choose not to act?

00:13:13.380 I sort of, I have never accepted this kind of, you know, facile, offensive,

00:13:20.620 oh, it's about votes.

00:13:22.200 You know, there are more Muslims in these countries than Jews.

00:13:26.500 This isn't about Jews.

00:13:27.780 We're the first target.

00:13:30.320 We always are.

00:13:31.560 But we're not the last.

00:13:33.300 This is about Western civilization.

00:13:36.100 They hate Western civilization.

00:13:39.100 They hate our freedoms and our values. 0.91

00:13:41.800 But they can target the Jews for a whole bunch of reasons.

00:13:46.080 And, you know, nobody seems to care.

00:13:49.900 I don't know.

00:13:50.540 Ask Mark Carney to explain his rather breezy attitude

00:13:54.780 because it's the same as Albanese's, in fact, worse.

00:13:58.520 Albanese has made expressions of support for the Jewish community in Australia

00:14:02.740 over the past two years that have never passed Mark Carney's lips.

00:14:09.160 Well, is it rank anti-Semitism?

00:14:11.620 Is it, you know, the brown shirts of the 20s and 30s in Germany,

00:14:15.460 but in better cut suits?

00:14:16.980 You tell me.

00:14:17.660 I don't even want to speculate about that.

00:14:21.400 The whole idea is horrifying.

00:14:23.320 What I would, if it is, the brown suits and better cut suits.

00:14:28.160 It's not conservative brown suits.

00:14:30.880 Somehow or other, this always ends up,

00:14:33.480 and Mr. Albanese is guilty of this.

00:14:36.780 He was talking about the need to go after right-wing extremists.

00:14:41.660 This is in the same speech that he identified guns as the problem.

00:14:52.040 You know, if you admit there's a problem, you have to deal with it.

00:14:56.240 Do you think that's a part of what's going on here?

00:14:59.400 They don't have the stomach to actually take a position on Islam.

00:15:03.600 Is it, call it out for what it is, a danger to Western democracy? 1.00

00:15:08.140 I think that our political kind of leadership has become so dumb 0.99

00:15:17.000 and so puerile that are they afraid to call it out? 0.99

00:15:26.240 I don't know.

00:15:27.260 I don't understand the fear to call out something that is clearly such a direct

00:15:31.260 and existential threat to, right now, Jewish citizens, 0.61

00:15:35.340 but tomorrow to everybody.

00:15:37.100 What it does is it puts many Western political leaders

00:15:42.960 and leaders of institutions, like the chief of police in Toronto,

00:15:46.700 Myron Demke, it puts them in the position of having to look at

00:15:51.000 their kind of guiding, their lodestar, their guiding ideology,

00:15:55.280 which is DEI, right?

00:15:57.580 Diversity is our strength.

00:15:59.180 We're so inclusive, which is kind of all they seem to pay attention to.

00:16:04.060 And this clashes with that.

00:16:07.920 They can't start, you know, challenging Islamists just because they're Muslim 1.00

00:16:14.800 or, you know, extreme progressives just because they're whatever.

00:16:19.920 This is an ideological war.

00:16:22.420 And maybe people have difficulty accepting that their ideology is a load of hooey.

00:16:28.820 Well, maybe, to put it, I mean, to put it, this is like cognitive dissonance.

00:16:35.120 You have an idea of how your society is and ought to be, and it's inclusive.

00:16:40.300 You mentioned DEI.

00:16:41.460 Well, there's the I part of it, the inclusivity.

00:16:44.220 And we can do better than we've done in the past.

00:16:47.520 Lots of different people who think different things.

00:16:50.780 And they all get along peacefully and they get along well.

00:16:53.460 Well, then you get in, now you have the dissonance.

00:16:56.820 You accept a group of people who come in.

00:16:58.760 They've got a very, they don't buy into that.

00:17:00.500 They don't expect that.

00:17:01.760 So are we onto something here in terms of understanding?

00:17:06.040 Maybe.

00:17:06.280 Maybe, I mean, look, Nigel, the police in Toronto, they have decided from the get-go that their

00:17:13.280 approach, and Myron Demke has made these comments in many a closed room over the last two plus

00:17:18.840 years, and he says, my approach to policing is to keep the peace.

00:17:23.640 And it seems that his idea of keeping the peace is to detain more Jewish people. 0.97

00:17:29.260 Um, he has, his force has arrested and detained far more Jewish people, um, who are in their

00:17:39.280 neighborhoods, who express some kind of, or who even just stand there.

00:17:43.500 Why?

00:17:44.500 They've said this repeatedly.

00:17:46.060 It's for your own safety.

00:17:48.220 It's for your own good.

00:17:50.260 They have told Jewish people in the, in the neighborhood that is constantly being, um, you

00:17:55.680 know, attacked.

00:17:56.360 They have told them, don't say anything.

00:18:00.240 Be nice to these people.

00:18:01.620 So, I mean, this is kind of, they're going out of their way.

00:18:05.800 If you, and I have been at demonstrations in Toronto, and I've had police officers come

00:18:10.140 up to me.

00:18:10.540 There was one in particular in March, and I was standing there.

00:18:14.540 I was not wearing anything visibly Jewish.

00:18:16.920 I didn't have a keffiyeh. 1.00

00:18:18.260 Like, I was just a person.

00:18:20.300 But they looked at me, and I guess they decided, since I didn't have a keffiyeh and wasn't hearing

00:18:24.440 a sign saying, destroy Israel, that I was with the Jews.

00:18:27.620 And a police officer came up to me and said, go stand over there.

00:18:30.400 You know, this little penned off little area of a sidewalk.

00:18:33.720 And I said, why?

00:18:35.140 He said, well, you're with them.

00:18:36.060 I said, who are they?

00:18:37.080 And, you know, he was kind of like a little uncertain about how to answer me.

00:18:42.840 I said, I'm not going to stand there.

00:18:44.680 I can go wherever I want.

00:18:45.940 And I proceeded to walk right into the demonstrators, the demonstrators.

00:18:50.520 Now, what he was saying to me, and what he said to me, was, it's for your own protection.

00:18:57.700 What Jewish people have been told many, many times over the last two plus years in Toronto

00:19:02.620 is, don't, you shouldn't be here.

00:19:05.960 Your presence provokes them.

00:19:08.320 A Jewish woman standing in her driveway in the neighborhood of Bathurst and Shepherd about

00:19:11.980 a month ago was told, you're instigating them.

00:19:16.160 You shouldn't be.

00:19:17.320 Like, this is crazy.

00:19:19.840 So this is not about, just about DEI.

00:19:26.220 But they're trying to turn the Jewish people into somehow having caused the problem. 0.83

00:19:31.860 And there have been many comments made to that effect about what happened at Bondi in Australia.

00:19:37.560 How were they causing a problem, in the opinion of those who think they did, by assembling on

00:19:44.660 a beach?

00:19:46.220 By existing, John, Nigel.

00:19:48.320 By existing, that's the issue.

00:19:50.140 That's the issue.

00:19:51.540 Vivian, we don't have an awful lot of time left.

00:19:53.560 But I would like you to tell me your honest thoughts about, should Canadian Jews think

00:20:01.380 about finding a safer country to live in?

00:20:03.560 Has it got to that stage?

00:20:06.020 What would you tell your kids?

00:20:07.300 One of my kids is in Israel with me.

00:20:12.160 The other one is in Toronto.

00:20:15.020 She is, both my kids are in the kind of late 20s, early 30s snap bracket.

00:20:20.100 They are proud Jewish women.

00:20:22.360 And my older daughter is going to be leaving for a whole bunch of reasons. 1.00

00:20:28.400 And she works in an environment, it's a public sector environment, it is very hostile, openly

00:20:32.700 hostile.

00:20:34.500 It comes up everywhere all the time.

00:20:37.200 You may have heard recently that, you know, there have been a rash of incidents over the

00:20:42.640 years with Jewish people in Ubers.

00:20:45.940 And the drivers have been either throwing them out or said very unkind and inappropriate

00:20:51.560 things if they think the person is Jewish or if they hear them speaking Hebrew.

00:20:54.840 When I'm in Toronto, I can't use Uber because I have a cell phone with an Israeli area code.

00:21:01.100 So they know.

00:21:02.660 I simply, I'm not safe in Europe or in Toronto to use Uber.

00:21:06.780 So what would I tell people?

00:21:10.020 I'm not going to say stay or go.

00:21:13.000 But what I do say in my columns and on my podcast and I'll say here is, open your eyes.

00:21:20.160 Look at what's going on.

00:21:21.300 It's real.

00:21:22.480 It's not getting better.

00:21:23.640 There is zero political will to actually deal with this and address it.

00:21:30.360 There is zero will on the part of law enforcement to deal with this in a remotely appropriate

00:21:38.180 way.

00:21:39.340 And frankly, Nigel, based on what I've seen and what we saw in Australia the other day,

00:21:43.980 I got a question whether or not our police, and I think this is way beyond municipal police

00:21:52.220 now, this is a national security crisis.

00:21:53.960 I don't know that they have the capability to deal with this.

00:21:57.800 We watched the Australian police duck for cover while watching people mowed down by these two men.

00:22:07.160 They ducked for cover.

00:22:09.360 For 15 minutes, these two men shot freely.

00:22:13.100 The police have not explained how and why that happened.

00:22:17.520 Do the police in Toronto even have the ability to deal with an attack of that nature?

00:22:24.460 Never mind the political will or the institutional will.

00:22:28.160 Does the RCMP?

00:22:29.440 Like, who has the ability to deal with counter-terror?

00:22:36.260 And you have to be able to mobilize within minutes.

00:22:40.220 To ask the question is to imply the answer.

00:22:44.260 Are you saying that you don't think the police have the ability?

00:22:49.340 Never mind Will.

00:22:49.980 I question.

00:22:52.660 Okay.

00:22:53.080 I've not seen them demonstrate that.

00:22:57.300 There have been many violent attacks on Jewish institutions and on Jewish people.

00:23:01.260 Many.

00:23:02.320 And one of the things that needs to be understood here is that the similarities between Sydney and Toronto

00:23:11.060 are incredible in terms of the demographics of the Jewish community.

00:23:16.360 Sydney has about 50,000 Jews.

00:23:18.140 Toronto is more like 200,000 plus.

00:23:22.340 Both communities are kind of very heavy with Holocaust survivors and their families.

00:23:29.720 I'm the daughter of a Holocaust survivor.

00:23:33.700 They're vulnerable in different ways.

00:23:36.620 They're not as voluble as their counterparts in America.

00:23:40.720 You mentioned earlier that Jews have often been very influential and involved in public policy in Canada.

00:23:46.340 I would actually take a different perspective on that.

00:23:49.140 Very different perspective on that.

00:23:50.900 I think we've been less involved in Canada as a group than in most Western democracies.

00:23:56.920 But if that's the perception, that's the perception.

00:24:00.280 But I think that the similarities between the two cities is astonishing.

00:24:07.220 The level of violence against Jews in Toronto, statistically, and the kinds of violence

00:24:15.900 has exceeded what the community in Sydney has experienced.

00:24:21.740 Last question, Vivian.

00:24:23.240 Do you feel safer in Israel than in Toronto?

00:24:26.420 I'm not safe in Toronto.

00:24:27.360 Yes, I feel much safer here.

00:24:30.900 Very good.

00:24:32.380 Vivian, thank you for coming on to talk about these.

00:24:35.240 It's a terrible situation.

00:24:37.580 You know, I heard somebody the other day say it's 1938 all over again.

00:24:41.980 Maybe it's 1937.

00:24:46.560 It's going in the wrong direction.

00:24:48.200 But I want to thank you for joining us today.

00:24:51.040 And for The Western Standard, I'm Nigel Hannaford.

00:24:53.640 Thank you.

Western Standard - December 22, 2025

HANNAFORD： Safer in Israel than Toronto

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