Western Standard - March 14, 2025


HANNAFORD： What happens when the government controls what you can buy？


Episode Stats

Length

25 minutes

Words per Minute

154.18054

Word Count

3,937

Sentence Count

207


Summary

The Bank of Canada is working on a system that would allow the government to spend your money, and control your money in a central bank digital currency. What does this mean for your privacy, security, and autonomy? In this episode, we talk to Ben Klassen from the Justice Center for Constitutional Freedoms, who has just written a report on this.


Transcript

00:00:00.000 Good evening, Western Standard viewers, and welcome to Hannaford, a weekly politics show
00:00:22.680 of the Western Standard. How would you like it if the government of Canada was able to decide
00:00:28.880 how you spent your money? They already decide how much you get to keep, as anybody now filling out
00:00:35.620 their income tax knows. But what if you went to buy gasoline and found you couldn't, even though
00:00:41.780 you had money in the bank because you'd reached your limit for gas purchases? The Bank of Canada
00:00:48.100 is working on a system that would allow that, and here to talk about what it means for you is Ben
00:00:54.200 Klassen from the Justice Center for Constitutional Freedoms. Welcome to the show, Ben.
00:00:59.340 Well, thank you for having me, Nigel.
00:01:01.040 Oh, you're welcome. Great to see you. Ben, you've just written a big report on this,
00:01:04.500 and we're going to talk about it. But first, a word from our sponsors. This episode of Hannaford
00:01:09.080 is sponsored by New World Precious Metals. Based right here in Calgary, years of inflationary
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00:01:35.400 newworldpm.com. Newworldpm.com. Ben, your report is called Central Bank Digital Currency. What it is
00:01:50.720 and how it could impact your privacy, security, and autonomy. And you clearly want us to be concerned,
00:01:58.020 and frankly, I am. So is Central Bank Digital Currency some kind of cryptocurrency? What's wrong
00:02:08.080 with it? Yeah, that's a great question, Nigel. It's a question that a lot of people have. What
00:02:12.980 is the difference between a cryptocurrency or a stable currency versus a Central Bank Digital
00:02:17.900 Currency? So the main difference between these two, while Central Bank Digital Currencies could
00:02:24.980 operate on a technological level in largely the same way as cryptocurrencies or stable currencies,
00:02:30.900 the main difference is that cryptocurrencies and stable currencies are privately owned and operated
00:02:42.040 and not regulated, whereas a Central Bank Digital Currency is regulated by a Central Bank.
00:02:49.700 And so that means that the Central Bank could have, depending on the structure, could have access to
00:02:57.120 all your banking information, to all your account information, but also to any and all of your
00:03:02.600 transactions. So if you go and pick up a burger from McDonald's, or you go and put gas into your car
00:03:09.580 somewhere in the middle of Alberta, the government would know about it. Or if you make a donation to
00:03:16.940 a non-profit organization, for example, or a certain political party, depending on the
00:03:22.860 structure... Or a trucker, maybe. Or a trucker, exactly for that. Yeah, exactly. Okay. So yeah, so again,
00:03:29.660 it depends on the structure. But the fear and the concern here is that a Central Bank Digital Currency is
00:03:39.340 regulated by the Federal Government, or the Central Bank, Bank of Canada, and they would be able to see
00:03:46.700 everything and anything and control you in a large way in that way. So... Okay, well, obviously, this is a very
00:03:52.300 concerning development. It's actually been gestating for a few years now. But you have to ask, who wants this? Because I don't... You know, we were just in a pub talking about this. And as you look around the room,
00:03:57.340 you don't see a bunch of people who are thinking, this would be so much easier if I had Central Bank Digital Currency. So it's not coming out of the public. Who wants this? And why do they want it?
00:04:19.340 Do they want it? That's a great question. Central bankers, politicians, and other people who are for
00:04:25.100 this, they're... They are advertising Central Bank Digital Currencies as a way to make people, to entice
00:04:32.140 people as this is something that you... That would really increase your... Increase your efficiency and
00:04:40.140 monetary transfers or make your life easier in one way or another. So they're citing efficiency, where
00:04:49.420 you send someone an e-transfer and that is settled instantaneously, whereas nowadays you sometimes
00:04:54.460 need to wait up to 30 minutes for it to settle, or you pay your grocery bill and it's on your credit
00:05:01.420 card, but it stays on there for three days before it is finally finalized the transaction.
00:05:06.300 I don't consider that a disadvantage.
00:05:08.220 So that's exactly it. Now, so for most people, it is not really a disadvantage because it doesn't
00:05:17.340 really affect us on a day-to-day basis. It could maybe affect us in like in terms of sending money
00:05:25.020 to other people in other countries where then delays are sometimes up to three days.
00:05:30.300 So CBDCs are being pitched as a way for instantaneous transfer settlements, but they're already building
00:05:38.220 new technologies like real-time rail that will make instantaneous money transfers possible.
00:05:44.460 So Ben, whose idea was this and to whose advantage is it?
00:05:51.900 Yeah, great question. So the average consumer, the average Canadian taxpayer is obviously not
00:05:59.660 really asking for this. The current digital money system that we have works just fine. We tap with our
00:06:06.700 phones, we tap with our credit cards, and we have all the comfort and ease necessary.
00:06:12.300 Right. So there is obviously someone who does want it and for a certain reason, right? And so
00:06:19.900 central bankers talk about, yeah, all the conveniences that it would provide, including safety,
00:06:28.380 inclusivity. But take, for example, inclusivity, which they say will help to have more pay.
00:06:35.260 Those people who do not have a bank account currently, they will be able to transfer money digitally,
00:06:41.580 whereas now, if you don't have a bank account, then you can only use cash. But the reality is,
00:06:47.100 that might apply to Nigeria, where up to 30% of people don't have a bank account. But in Canada,
00:06:51.580 more than 99% of people have a bank account already. So that tells us that there's a certain
00:06:56.220 other agenda behind it.
00:06:57.500 So solving a problem we don't have.
00:06:59.260 Exactly. For the consumer, while they're selling it as something really good for the average Canadian
00:07:03.980 taxpayer, the things that they're selling it on don't really apply to us,
00:07:09.180 including efficiency of monetary...
00:07:12.700 Okay, so then let's go to the nightmare scenario. And this has got to do with control.
00:07:18.460 You were an observer, I think, of the convoy back in 2022. And you saw that the government had the
00:07:27.180 power to take extreme measures, such as freezing bank accounts. So this is something they've been able
00:07:33.180 to do for decades, by the way. It's not like we first discovered this in 2022. But it was the first
00:07:42.860 time we saw it deployed against an identifiable group of people. Now, we have a government at the
00:07:50.940 moment, hopefully it won't last too much longer, but let's say it does. And they have a climate change
00:07:57.740 agenda. And so they want to be able to persuade people to spend their money here and not there.
00:08:06.220 You're spending too much on gasoline, Mr. Klassen.
00:08:11.260 Yeah.
00:08:12.380 What has this got to do with the government's wish to control how we spend our money?
00:08:17.740 Yeah, that's good. And this is one of the most concerning aspects of CBDC.
00:08:22.220 Do you think this is why they're doing it?
00:08:23.580 It very much could be because if there's not very, very little to no benefits for the consumer,
00:08:29.500 then there must be some sort of other reason why they're pursuing it. And the concern is that
00:08:34.540 they're pursuing it for reasons that would benefit the government and central bank. Because a CBDC
00:08:41.340 would increase their power and increase their control over the monetary system, over the economy,
00:08:47.180 over individual consumer spending. So if you use a CBDC, depending on the structure,
00:08:55.500 but likely they will be able to, in some structures, they will be able to use, see every single thing
00:09:01.500 that you spend your money on, whether you bought gasoline, whether you donated to a certain political
00:09:06.700 party or you flew to Jamaica for a vacation. They will know your spending habits. They will know
00:09:15.900 anything, everything about you. And so they could use this in a way to punish you. So for example,
00:09:21.980 if you donated to the wrong political party, or if you bought too much fuel that contributed to too much
00:09:29.500 CO2 in the environment, well, then next thing you know, you have a, maybe a bad credit with them. And so
00:09:37.980 yeah, they could then restrict certain your spending on certain things. But one of the fears that I have
00:09:43.820 with this is, it's not that the average Canadian consumer will be that their transactions will be
00:09:51.980 monitored and or restricted. My fear is more that they will use, they will
00:09:58.300 monitor and try the transactions of certain leaders in the Canadian society. So for example,
00:10:04.700 during the truckers convoy, there was only a handful of leaders. And so if you, if you effectively
00:10:11.660 eliminated their possibility from conducting any kind of economic transactions. So if cash was no longer
00:10:18.620 available, which CBDCs likely will create an incentive to remove cash. And so if cash was no longer
00:10:25.340 available and private cryptocurrencies, which governments have already, central banks have
00:10:31.740 already said that some of their policy goals that they would like to achieve, cash and private
00:10:37.420 cryptocurrencies actually stand in the way because it's a way around for around for actually using the
00:10:43.980 CBDC. And so if these other currencies were not allowed, and only CBDCs were allowed, then they could
00:10:51.100 effectively stop any leaders from being able to rise up and organize a huge protest or, yeah, even if it's
00:11:03.020 online or whatever, they freeze your bank account, stop allowing you to conduct transactions.
00:11:09.340 And what you have just said is going to have some of our listeners leaning forward in their seats. You just
00:11:15.340 floated the possibility that Bitcoin and cryptocurrencies could become illegal. I think
00:11:23.420 that's what you said. Am I, am I correct? Yeah, that's, that's correct. Now, currently banks,
00:11:29.100 Bank of Canada and most banks, central banks in the Western world are saying that no, a CBDC will
00:11:36.300 operate in tandem with cash and other currencies. And so I think that that might very well be in the beginning.
00:11:43.740 Okay. So I was going to say, why do you think that, uh, Bitcoin is under, uh, is, is in any danger at
00:11:50.060 all? Well, just for one thing, the United States government wants all the Bitcoin it can get for
00:11:55.820 its, its, its, its strategic reserves. Surely they would, they would be a force to maintain Bitcoin.
00:12:02.940 Yeah, exactly. The bank of Canada, you know, well, yeah. So while there are, um, certain central
00:12:11.100 banks and certain politicians that do see the value in cash and do see the value in Bitcoins
00:12:16.380 and other private currencies, there are other governments that have already, uh, uh, said that
00:12:21.260 current of cryptocurrencies are a danger to monetary policies or to their monetary, um, um, uh, sovereignty,
00:12:28.460 as they put it. And so for example, China is one of the countries that has talked about,
00:12:32.860 oh, like we don't actually like some of these cryptocurrencies. Uh, we want people to use our own
00:12:37.900 monetary system, including the, the CBDC that they've already implemented in their, in their
00:12:42.780 country. And so, um, if CBDCs allows government to really usurp a whole lot more power and have way
00:12:51.500 more power over the economy, over individual, uh, consumer spending, and, and, and if that helps them
00:12:57.180 to push through their own agendas, uh, which they, you know, we think are great political agendas.
00:13:04.460 Um, if, if other currencies stand in the way, then there is an incentive doesn't mean that they will,
00:13:10.460 but there, then there is an incentive to remove other currencies. And so if eventually 95% of
00:13:17.260 Canadians use CBDCs, well, then they might be like, okay, no one uses cash. No one uses
00:13:23.260 cryptocurrencies really. Everyone is okay with the CBDC. So why don't, why don't we just make that illegal?
00:13:29.340 Because, uh, criminals use, uh, cryptocurrencies to evade taxes and to, you know, uh, to engage in
00:13:36.700 money laundering or finance, uh, terrorism or whatever all. And so then they'll be like, well,
00:13:41.420 we're just removing cash and digital private digital currencies because we want to eliminate crime.
00:13:47.180 And so, and then the average Canadian might be like, well, I mean, I use CBDCs, it seems to be working
00:13:51.500 fine. And I think eliminating crime is a great idea. So yeah, why not? Um, and so, uh, yeah, a few people
00:13:57.900 might still be left. No, like we, there's value in cash, but, uh, yeah, we need a whole huge portion
00:14:03.660 of Canadians to really see the value in these things so that central banks are not able to
00:14:08.860 remove these. So it's, it's a variation of the old argument that, well, I've got nothing to hide,
00:14:13.580 so let them look. No, they don't have a right to look. Yeah. And so how long has this been going on
00:14:20.460 and where is it poised right now? Like, are we going to be getting, uh, digital bank currencies next week?
00:14:26.940 But how long has it been going on? Yeah. Um, good question. Uh, so the idea, the, the technology
00:14:35.340 that central bank is central bank digital currency is most likely going to be based on
00:14:39.740 is called DLT distributed ledger technology. And that has been around since the later 1990s, uh,
00:14:49.500 central banks have been, I believe, exploring central bank digital currencies and in the beginning of
00:14:54.380 2000, 2010s or into the middle of 2010s. Um, I don't know exactly when the central bank of Canada
00:15:02.140 started exploring CBDCs, but in, in 2020, in the beginning of 2020, they announced that they were
00:15:08.540 already exploring it. So they didn't say how long they had been. And so three years later,
00:15:14.940 or three and a half to four years later, in, uh, October, November of 2023, they released a
00:15:21.260 public survey, uh, that showed that, oh, surprisingly 79%, something, something like
00:15:27.420 that of Canadians are against central bank digital currencies. They're even against the central bank
00:15:32.780 researching a CBDC, nevermind implementing one. And so a year later in October, in November of last year,
00:15:40.220 2024, uh, the central bank of Canada announced that, uh, they're, they're going to put, uh,
00:15:46.780 their efforts on pause, but I mean, pause is a very ambiguous term. What does that even mean?
00:15:51.420 Like, are we doing this because the rest of the world is doing it?
00:15:54.780 Well, when they, when they paused it in 2024, they said, uh, we're going to pause it, but we're
00:16:02.460 going to continue to monitor what's going on around the world. And in case a CBDC will ever
00:16:08.140 be needed. And so, yeah, that's, that's kind of the argument that, oh yeah, this seems the
00:16:12.620 direction that everything is going in. And, and they seem to, they, they, they tend to make the
00:16:17.020 argument that, oh, a CBDC really is inevitable. And, uh, and we should stay ahead of the game so that
00:16:23.180 we're not left behind. And so that, um, we're not left behind and eventually have a huge economic,
00:16:28.220 uh, downfall to pay for that or whatever. We need to stay ahead of the ball game. And, uh, yeah.
00:16:33.260 So we are in fact operating as part of a world system that is changing. And the challenge,
00:16:41.100 if you happen to work for the bank of Canada is to bring Canadians along perhaps slowly so that
00:16:48.860 nobody gets scared and kicks the stable to pieces. Is that about the size of it?
00:16:54.940 Yes. Yeah. So, uh, banks are saying that we, yeah, we need to, uh, uh, stay ahead of the ball game
00:17:00.620 in terms of developing these. But, uh, the reality is that there's so much more development that can
00:17:06.220 be done in the current banking system. So for example, uh, CBDC is a key thing that they're
00:17:12.300 supposed to address is efficiency. Instantaneous money transfers peer to peer doesn't interact with banks,
00:17:18.220 but a new technology that is banks like that, by the way, they get a cut every time I send a check
00:17:23.740 or an email transfer. Exactly. That's a good question. And this is my opinion that big banks,
00:17:30.940 they're actually fine with it because they know, uh, that similar to what professor Richard Warner,
00:17:37.340 um, has talked about a British professor on, on economics and finances. Uh, he has warned that
00:17:43.260 CBDCs will have a detrimental effect to small banks. And so then that will increase the power
00:17:49.660 and big, uh, of big banks because more people are going to be banking with big banks. And so big banks,
00:17:55.180 I don't think actually mind that, oh, we are going to get way more new clients. Um, smaller banks,
00:18:00.060 they're increasingly worried about it. And, uh, yeah, and we are already seeing a trend in that direction.
00:18:05.820 I think in the UK, you, there were 10,000, uh, small banks that had closed, um, uh, within, uh,
00:18:13.260 the last 10 to 20 years or something like that. Um, as Richard Warner warns, and, and CBDC is only
00:18:19.500 going to increase, uh, the speed in that direction. So as we, we're not quite out of time yet, but we're
00:18:25.660 getting close. Let's just sort of bring this together. What we have is the Bank of Canada
00:18:33.340 researching a system of electronic currency, which doesn't necessarily involve the private banks
00:18:41.980 that could be a conduit for the federal government to pay people and presumably to receive money from
00:18:50.140 people that, um, they control entirely and that they are, although they may not actually impose
00:19:01.260 restrictions upon how you spend the money that's in your digital currency account, they could.
00:19:08.940 So if there was an objective that they were trying to meet, uh, if they were combating inflation or if
00:19:16.700 they were in combating deflation, then the reverse, they would perhaps be able to make it hard for you
00:19:23.340 to hold cash and encourage you to spend it, contrary the other way. Or if they're trying to meet climate
00:19:29.260 change objectives, then under this system, they have the power to say, well, you know, we're allowing
00:19:34.700 you this much money to purchase fuel for the month. And when you, when you're there, that's it, you can't
00:19:41.820 do any more. They remove the power of choice. This is not necessarily what they're saying the system
00:19:49.740 will do. Yeah. But as an observer and writer of this excellent report, you are saying there's nothing
00:19:58.860 stopping them to do it. And of course we have the example of China and his social credit system,
00:20:05.020 where actually there is a very direct connection between the behavior of the citizen and the rewards
00:20:11.980 offered by the state system. So we're going, we're on the road to Beijing.
00:20:18.860 We're on the road to Beijing.
00:20:20.300 Really?
00:20:20.700 Yeah.
00:20:21.260 That is, okay. This is, um, a very interesting and timely report, Ben. Uh, obviously the Justice
00:20:31.980 Center for Constitutional Freedom is a, an organization that we here at the Western Standard
00:20:37.100 that pay a lot of heed to, and a lot of respect to, um, where can people read your report?
00:20:44.060 Yeah. So the report is available on our website at jccf.ca. And so if you go under the education's
00:20:50.140 tab, uh, in reports there, you will find, uh, this report highlighted there. So.
00:20:55.020 Okay. And just, I, I'm just going to conclude by quoting from the, the forward of your,
00:21:01.740 the abstract of your report in which you say the increased popularity of cryptocurrencies and
00:21:08.940 other digital payment systems has prompted central banks around the world, including the
00:21:15.260 Bank of Canada to explore central bank digital currencies. So this is driven by the alternative
00:21:22.460 money. And then you go on and you say, uh, these currencies could threaten Canadians,
00:21:28.300 privacy, security, autonomy, financial independence, and their access, access to economic participation.
00:21:38.460 Could also usher in a cashless economy, thereby removing access to the intangible but important
00:21:45.820 benefits that cash provides. My, I'm going to, my last question to you is this. My fear
00:21:54.860 is that in the years to come years that I may not see, but the due way, this will somehow be
00:22:02.620 integrated with digital identity, which has already been under preparation in Canada for 25 years,
00:22:08.860 started in BC around about the turn of the century. Um, most people don't really think much about it,
00:22:15.420 but, uh, your, your, your, uh, BC or your Alberta ID card will link you to the federal system. You can
00:22:24.700 go in and do service Canada stuff with a provincial card that's getting fairly close to having a one size fits all identity card. Add in this so that you need one piece of plastic or maybe not even one piece of plastic, but one, uh, code on your phone.
00:22:46.700 You hold it up and your whole financial life is there before you and anybody else behind on the other side of the, of the wall. Yeah. Who cares to, to look? Is this the society that we are?
00:23:00.700 I mean, let's, I know sometimes we love to look into the, the, the, the dark glass and see disaster and everything, but, and it may not be so, but could it be so?
00:23:12.700 Well, it certainly could lead there. Um, I don't think that it would go there very fast, although it could go there quicker than we may think as evidenced by, uh, the truckers convoy and freezing of bank accounts there.
00:23:24.700 But yeah, what digital IDs do they, they essentially, um, uh, identify so much of, uh, information about yourself, your health status, whether you're vaccinated or where you live or where you like to spend your, your, um, vacation time and so on.
00:23:41.700 And so now you add, uh, CBDCs to that. Now, now, uh, they have access to all your spending habits, your, where you invest your money, uh, the places that you donate to, uh, so together they now have a very complete picture of who you are, what you support, what you think, uh, and so on.
00:24:01.700 And so, uh, once they have that and add to that, the power to, to determine when, where, and what you spend your money on and, and, and a thing that is called program, the programmability of central bank digital currencies.
00:24:16.560 So now they are effectively able to determine who you are, what you support, and then they have the power to then, uh, determine what you can spend your money on or freeze your account or even eliminate your money at the push of a button.
00:24:30.640 And, and so, um, this is, together, this will be a very powerful tool. Um, and, uh, we are already seeing that, as you mentioned, uh, with the social credit system in China, where this is already at play, so.
00:24:41.220 Can we assume that the Justice Center is going to continue to keep an eye on this for us?
00:24:45.020 Oh, we're going to continue, continue to keep fighting for Canadians' rights and freedoms, so.
00:24:49.900 Ben Klaassen, thank you very much for coming in. Here is the report.
00:24:53.600 Ben Klaassen, thank you very much for joining us today. For the Western Standard, I'm Nigel Haniford.
00:25:01.600 website again jccf.ca go to educations tab and then in reports that's where you'll find it
00:25:08.160 highlighted ben thank you very much for joining us today for the western standard i'm nigel hannaford
00:25:31.600 you